Latest / Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute / 36: What is Process Addiction?

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36: What is Process Addiction? · Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute

0:00
Hey everybody, it's good to be hanging out with you.
0:02
I'm excited to introduce you to somebody, but before I do, have
0:04
you guys ever heard of process addiction?
0:08
Like why is it different than other types of addiction?
0:10
We're going to go through that today and we're going to talk
0:12
about that. So we're looking forward to it.
0:18
Welcome to Beyond the Facade podcast.
0:20
I'm your host, Luke Gordon, and I'm thrilled to have you join me
0:23
in the space today. What we're going to be doing is
0:25
diving deep into the trials and triumphs and truths of seeking
0:28
authenticity. Becoming your true self isn't
0:31
about a single action or a moment.
0:33
It's a relentless pursuit, a commitment to self that reveals
0:36
a rich connection and meaning that our life has to offer.
0:39
So whether this is your first time tuning in or you're a
0:42
regular listener, know this. What you're building here goes
0:45
beyond a conversation. You're here to challenge, to
0:48
change, and to celebrate the incredible journey of becoming
0:51
your authentic self. Because when you dare to show up
0:54
fully, the rewards are immeasurable.
0:56
So welcome to Beyond the Facade. Let's get started.
1:00
OK everybody, it's good to hang out with you.
1:03
I have Gary Katz here with me and I'm excited.
1:08
Alana and Amy have their podcast and he was on theirs.
1:11
They had a really good response. So I'm not afraid to steal
1:15
shamelessly, Gary. So I guess I'm stealing you for
1:17
a moment and having you over here to talk about something
1:20
different. It's a different subject.
1:22
So those of you who listen to the podcast back and forth and
1:25
maybe skip between them, it's a different topic that Gary and I
1:28
are going to be going through today.
1:30
But just a little bit of an introduction on Gary so you get
1:34
a chance to know him. And I'll speak a little bit for
1:36
you, Gary, and then you can correct, you know, anything I
1:37
got wrong here. But so Gary is based out of New
1:41
York, right? Gary?
1:42
Yep. Yeah.
1:44
So he's a licensed clinical social worker, certified sexual
1:47
addiction therapist, certified betrayal trauma therapist.
1:51
He's the owner of Center for Intimacy Recovery, again, based
1:54
in New York, and they're actually licensed in seven
1:57
different states. Just excited to introduce him to
1:59
you so we can have a conversation.
2:01
Gary, you want to say anything about you that I missed that
2:03
would be useful for people to know?
2:05
No, I think it'll come out anyway.
2:07
But I appreciate the interest. Thank you.
2:09
Yeah. Absolutely.
2:10
As we talk about process addiction, we want to share with
2:13
you some of them because we recognize here we talk a lot
2:16
about sexually compulsive behavior, but it's tied into a
2:19
lot. So common process addictions are
2:22
like sexual compulsive behavior, food addiction.
2:25
We're talking about that today. But really just like Internet
2:28
social media addiction, this is a big one.
2:31
Work addiction, but workholism, shopping, compulsive buying.
2:36
And then also another one that's pretty big is exercise addiction
2:39
too. Yeah, there's some process
2:41
addiction. As we talked about this today.
2:42
You'll notice these themes come up that this was not just about
2:45
porn. So the conversation we're going
2:47
to have today kind of set up already.
2:49
What is process addiction? What's different with this?
2:52
Gary, do you mind setting us up for this?
2:54
Yeah, sure. Thanks, Luke, and thank you
2:56
again for having me here. I really appreciate it.
2:59
Typically the way that addiction is looked at it, if someone has
3:02
a problem with alcohol or a substance like a drug or
3:05
something like that, they're looked at the either the
3:08
substance is inherently addictive.
3:10
It might cause if they use a certain amount of it, it might
3:13
become their body becomes addicted to it, or that they
3:17
become dependent on it because of the impact that it gives
3:20
them. Food and sex are called process
3:24
addictions because the acts are not inherently addictive,
3:29
although with the attention in the food industry, some might
3:32
argue that the sweet salt that might be addictive, but in some
3:37
of my own experiences might testify to that.
3:39
But it's really more about what the process that happens to the
3:43
person in their brain, in their body and nervous system when
3:47
engaging with those things. And so therefore also for food
3:51
and sex, the goal of sobriety, of recovery is very different
3:56
than maybe abstinence for a substance like alcohol or drugs.
4:00
With Food and Sex about learning how to have a healthy
4:04
relationship with sex and with food.
4:08
So when I think about this, I'm thinking about like that thing
4:11
I've heard in 12 step meetings and other places, like when you
4:15
join people with going to a A and then you have essay, which
4:19
is, Hey, you can put you can put like a bottle on a shell.
4:24
You know, you put beer on a shelf.
4:26
You could put it away, put it into lock and key and not trying
4:29
to minimize the destructive nature of alcohol abuse, but
4:35
food and sex a little different because we have to keep in our
4:37
lives, right? So do when it comes to process
4:43
addiction, there's this thing that we really struggle with,
4:45
which is how do you define sobriety?
4:47
Can use actually the sobriety date because you can find inner
4:51
circle behavior, which we talked about that before, but it seems
4:54
to be way more complex than that and way more nuanced because
4:58
it's integrated into our life, you know?
5:01
So what are your thoughts on that when it comes?
5:03
That's a really good question. When I work with somebody who's
5:06
in recovery for us to say sex addiction, I as a therapist, try
5:10
not to get caught up on their sobriety date.
5:12
I if they're in really an active recovery, I want them to work
5:15
that through with their sponsors just so I don't have to get into
5:19
that authoritarian daddy issue or whatever.
5:23
I will push and prod them and make them think about it and
5:27
reflect things back to them and also be honest with them, you
5:30
know, But I don't want to get into that power, that power
5:33
struggle sometimes because I've seen unfortunately, sometimes
5:37
people's ego about their sobriety actually keeps them in
5:40
acts of the other act of addiction, other parts of the
5:44
sex addiction. So maybe there's five different
5:47
12 step programs around sex because of this exact reason.
5:50
How do you redefine it? Right.
5:52
And so I don't wanna get caught up with them and what's the
5:55
definition? But I wanna look at like, does
5:57
that really feel like sober behavior?
6:00
If your definition and the program that you're in has no
6:03
sex with yourself or another person outside your
6:05
relationship, but you're watching porn, is that sober
6:09
behavior? Or you're not having sex, but
6:12
you're having an emotional affair or you're lying to your
6:15
spouse or other things? Like that's not sober behavior.
6:18
So I feel like if they're really doing the work, they're going to
6:22
come to it in our conversations anyway and arrive at like
6:26
they're seeking honesty, they're seeking to live in integrity,
6:30
they're seeking to live their best sober life.
6:33
And as we look at where their egos popping up and they can
6:36
then own that as a person who's willing to look at themselves,
6:39
it kind of clarifies itself. So I don't know if I answered
6:43
your question. I think that's it.
6:45
The word sober kind of is problematic within itself.
6:47
Like what are we talking about when we say sober 'cause it's so
6:50
much tied to tied to substance or something else?
6:54
Yeah. When you're talking about sober,
6:56
Could you expand more of what you mean about sober?
6:59
Yeah, so again, like people are choosing different 12 step
7:05
recovery programs or maybe their own definition.
7:08
To me it's what it's like are they having a healthy
7:13
relationship? Let's just like sexual recovery.
7:15
I don't I feel like I don't know enough about disordered eating
7:18
recovery to really. But are they having a healthier
7:21
relationship with sex? Are they present and you know,
7:26
in a growth mode about themselves emotionally,
7:29
intellectually, spiritually? Are they living in integrity
7:32
with their partner or and the rest of the world?
7:35
Are they having secrets? Are they hiding things,
7:37
especially as related, but about anything?
7:40
And are they living a relational life?
7:45
Because as I've heard you say on other episodes of your podcast,
7:48
right? Like it's not just about
7:50
abstinence from the problematic or destructive sexual or secret
7:55
of sexual behaviors. There's so much more I try to
7:59
address with them. What is being sober look like,
8:02
but from a broader point of view.
8:03
So for example, somebody who, let's say they were addicted to
8:08
porn and they're watching porn all the time and they get
8:12
discovered, they have a moment crisis.
8:14
And like, I don't want to do that and they stop watching
8:17
porn, but what do the porn do for them?
8:18
It's not like I so like they're already high when they're
8:23
watching porn and their body chemistry is changing.
8:26
Their heart races probably. So, you know, if they if they
8:30
masturbate or have an orgasm and you know, sex from that, does
8:34
that change their sobriety? According to most 12 step
8:37
programs, it would. According to some 12 step
8:39
programs, even if they didn't have that, but they're watching
8:41
porn that changes their sobriety.
8:43
That would be a violation of, let's say inner circle behavior
8:46
for them. Yeah, the phrase that I just
8:48
fell in love with, not right away, but I've learned over
8:51
time, was that porn isn't my problem.
8:53
It's a solution to my problem. Porn isn't the reason I've spent
8:59
a ridiculous amount of money on treatment and therapy and
9:03
groups. It's the problem is that I don't
9:07
know how to deal with my emotions.
9:09
So that's. How to deal with certain things,
9:11
yeah. Yeah, exactly.
9:13
There's a line in one of the 12 step books about sex addiction
9:15
which says it the same thing but it well it says what was the
9:20
solution became the problem. What was the solution became the
9:23
problem. Well, Leplore and actually for
9:25
many people was a solution to what you just said, like to
9:28
their feelings, to regulation, to not knowing to how to handle
9:33
discomfort or uncomfortable feelings.
9:35
So it became a way to say to soothe or to wake up their
9:38
nervous system cause or you can use your porn that way too, not
9:41
just to check out, but also to feel wired.
9:44
So it starts out as a solution to something else, which is why
9:48
recovery has to go all the way back past the behavioral level
9:51
and look at what am I trying to address through my acting out
9:55
behaviors, whatever they are, that I was trying to feel
9:58
better. And I when I asked most clients
10:01
like, how do they, what's their hypothesis?
10:03
Because they're all smart people.
10:05
What's their hypothesis as to why they, how they got engaged
10:08
in this? And some have answers.
10:10
And a lot of times they're like, I don't know, I don't know how
10:13
this happens. So I think that when I think
10:16
about process addiction, it's not just like what happens to
10:20
the brain or the nervous system by the chemicals through sex and
10:25
or orgasm or engaging in say for porn, if that's what The thing
10:30
is, I think it's the function that all that serves for the
10:33
person, the process of that. So for porn, if I'm using porn
10:38
as a way, let's say, to numb out, that's the process numbing
10:41
out, disengaging from life, like you said, for whatever the
10:44
reason, trauma reactions, inability to handle feelings
10:48
that are outside my window. So I have to recovery really has
10:55
to be expanded for me to look at what are the ways that I check
10:59
out that become problematic. We all check out on some level,
11:03
right? Every person at some point is
11:05
like, oh, you know what? I I just want to watch.
11:07
I'm going to say television. I'm going to read something just
11:09
to relax or I'm going to just there's nothing wrong with me
11:12
checking out a little, but as long as I'm not avoiding or I'm
11:16
not like if I say I'll come back and deal with the sadness in 1/2
11:20
an hour after I watched I'm dating myself here.
11:22
I don't want Everybody Loves Raymond.
11:24
And then I come back and now I deal with it.
11:27
So I didn't avoid the emotions or I didn't avoid whatever's
11:30
going on for me. I just needed like to deal for a
11:33
second. So it's about learning how to
11:36
look at an expansive role of how have I constructed a life for
11:40
myself. Because most of those men or
11:42
women who would say are engaging in porn compulsively probably
11:45
have multiple ways that they they feed this process of
11:49
checking out. Let's let's, let's I yeah, I'll,
11:52
let's keep slowing this down. I love this so much, Gary,
11:55
because I used to identify like I didn't have a problem until I
12:00
acted out. Like the moment that I, I guess
12:03
orgasm, oh, crap, everything's gone.
12:06
It's like that black and white when that's where it's so scary
12:09
to tie that into it because my pattern really is from the
12:12
moment I have this uncomfortable experience inside of myself,
12:17
like shame or a just of overwhelm, then immediately I go
12:21
to a place like we go to Karns, Patrick Karns stuff.
12:24
We go to preoccupation. How do I solve this problem?
12:27
And also, I'm in this. I'm in this place where the
12:29
rituals kick into play. And it's.
12:31
Yeah, I love the fact that you're talking about this is a
12:33
process. And I think I had a similar
12:35
experience as you. I I had that moment when I
12:38
didn't understand. Like I remember one time I was
12:41
still trying to get sober and I had acted out with somebody and
12:45
I called my sponsor and I was like, I don't understand.
12:47
He's like Gary, you're already high and he and I were both
12:51
lost. Hey, so I understood the cause
12:53
of like the first drink gets you drunk.
12:54
He's you're already high when you're just having coffee or
12:57
where you're texting that you're already high with that.
13:00
So it's not when you have sex is when you are now no longer
13:04
sooner. It's the part, all the stuff
13:06
that leads up to it. Yeah, that.
13:09
I love that. And then what's interesting, it
13:11
was we're just so distracted. Like if I can pull the partner
13:14
into it here for a second, I know we have partners.
13:16
Listen to this and I know they talk about there's a lot of
13:19
triggers, but it's also nice to just hear the real of what's
13:22
happening inside the the brain for their, for the partner in
13:26
recovery, for the acting out partner.
13:28
They just want to know what's happening.
13:30
And I'll say him too, because that's traditionally the people
13:33
I'm working with as men, but they're like, just tell me what
13:36
happens. And I'm like, yeah, if you're
13:38
viewing it right now as it's only a problem when he acts out,
13:41
we're missing like so much. We're missing like 80% of what's
13:45
happening leading up to that. And what I hear that you're hurt
13:48
by is, is really just secrecy in general.
13:51
It's not secrecy about an act that was sexual.
13:56
It's by I can't see my partner in general.
13:59
And there's just so much that's missed by only identifying just
14:02
the end of behavior. Correct.
14:04
And it's also, you know, it's like the iceberg that we only
14:06
see the part above the water, but the larger part is
14:09
underneath the water. I find that when I do ask other
14:12
partners more about that, yeah, I mean, this is the crisis
14:15
issue. But they're also feeling and
14:16
probably have felt for a long time.
14:18
And sometimes have you been settled for, well, like my
14:21
husband or my partner isn't that emotionally available?
14:24
That's just the way he is. So that unavailability,
14:28
inability to be available emotionally is part of the
14:32
process. Addiction is part of the
14:34
checking out. So recovery has to expand
14:37
deeper, like more of the iceberg about the bring down the water
14:40
and see OK, at the the tip of the iceberg might be acting out
14:43
sexually, but what about checking out when we're having
14:46
conversations? What about not being emotionally
14:49
present? What about checking out through
14:52
work, checking out through compulsive exercise?
14:55
How many people get sober in some program?
14:57
Next thing you know, they're running marathons and doing Iron
15:00
Man's in like in a compulsive way, even in when they're
15:02
injured right there. It's a new way to like to feel
15:06
checked out or to regulate the body.
15:09
Some people are down regulating it.
15:11
What they all call hypo arousal, like if I'm in a trance state,
15:15
for some people, process is more hyper arousal.
15:18
Like it it lifts them, increases their heart rate, but whatever.
15:23
The person has to kind of learn about that for themselves.
15:25
And some have both. But what are all the ways I do
15:28
that that add to me not fully being sober in my life, Present
15:35
in my life, not just sexually sober, like by definition of the
15:40
Tulsa or whatever is being, however the definition is.
15:43
But what are the ways that I'm emotionally present in my life
15:46
and participating? What kind of things, Gary, do
15:49
you do with people that are trying to explore and understand
15:52
their process of addiction? Like we have a lot of people
15:54
that will get courageous here and listen to some of the
15:57
podcast and go, all right, for the first time ever, I'm going
16:00
to do this really scary thing and, and book a consult and, and
16:04
learn more. What, what type of things are
16:06
they going to learn about themselves?
16:08
What? What should they expect if they
16:09
start to understand this process?
16:12
Addiction. That's a great question.
16:14
If something's not working, which is why they're probably
16:17
listening to us in the 1st place and why they're getting
16:19
motivated to call in and seek help.
16:22
And so it's much broader than the the tip of the iceberg or
16:27
what we call a therapy role. The presenting problem, sending
16:30
problem is the thing that creates the crisis to bring the
16:32
person to the phoner in the door.
16:35
But what they would expect to look at is like, how could they
16:39
learn to slowly be curious without shame?
16:43
Hopefully, although I'm most of the time there's shame involved,
16:46
right? But to try to be curious, what
16:48
would a fully engaged and present life be like for me?
16:54
And what are the things that are in the way of me having that?
16:58
Because if I'm numbing out or I'm distracting myself from
17:01
uncomfortable things, I'm probably numbed out from joy as
17:05
well, from real authentic love as well.
17:08
Because if I'm avoiding intimacy with myself and another person,
17:13
then I'm not getting the actual intimacy and, well, that I
17:16
really want and most likely are terrified of it at the same
17:19
time. Yeah.
17:20
And I don't know if it's known or not known.
17:23
I don't know how much it's conscious or subconscious, but I
17:28
do recognize that there is a part of us that goes, I can't do
17:35
this work because I'm going to lose my ability to be able to
17:38
handle life. And I keep hearing you talk
17:39
about the numbing experience and how much there's just so much
17:44
fear associated with change in general because I only know one
17:48
way to survive and tied in here. And I keep hearing you talk
17:53
about the word numbing and how we all do certain things.
17:56
It's just to what level Do you mind speaking to that some?
18:00
Yeah. And I also afterwards want to
18:02
say it's not Yumming was one process, but I think there's
18:04
another important process to talk about.
18:06
But. Yeah, most of the people
18:08
probably if they're listening to this podcast have heard about
18:10
attachment like the our significant other is our
18:15
attachment object and we learn how to connect in our adult
18:18
relationships based on how we attached to our relationships
18:23
over caregivers. And so often a person probably
18:27
if they're being compelled to come in, you know, to listen to
18:30
this podcast or come for help. If they're in a relationship,
18:33
that primary person is probably has is upset with them, is
18:37
hurting, is in pain, might be telling them some of the things
18:40
they need to fix also, which when you can let go of your ego,
18:43
that's also a good source of information.
18:45
The person who shares your life with you.
18:47
Sometimes, you know, you have to learn how to take it in and
18:50
'cause it's sometimes said out of pain or critically.
18:53
But I think that the other thing that the person loses is their
18:59
coping mechanism is also like an attachment object, meaning it
19:03
helps me feel OK in the world, like you said before.
19:06
So what I need to do is learn new ways to feel OK in the
19:10
world, which people who don't use Ford or other substances or
19:15
anything in a dependency way have figured out.
19:18
Like there's a wealth and knowledge and there's people in
19:21
this world walking on our planet who have learned how to live
19:25
life without having to check out or how, how to do things to the
19:30
level that it creates destruction everywhere you go.
19:33
And so I there's ways to get support.
19:36
There are some an early recovery, which is I would say
19:39
the time period of for early persons seeking help, it's going
19:44
to feel very raw. Somebody once told me years ago
19:48
at a meeting that the word sober stands for I'm not gonna swear,
19:52
but here, but it says son. We swear here, by the way, just
19:56
like. Son of a bitch.
19:56
Everything's real. That's what sober stands for.
19:58
Meaning Like, yeah, all of a sudden.
20:00
Oh. That's good, Gary.
20:02
That's good. And so like when you ever meets
20:05
the guy who comes back from a treatment, so like I heard the
20:09
bird's beautiful. It's it's like beautiful and
20:12
comical at the same time, but their sense of wonder.
20:15
So that that is a new, experienced, not tampered tape
20:20
pushed down through shame and addiction.
20:23
So if it's about learning, and a good therapist can help a person
20:27
develop new support tools to get through life, so to speak,
20:32
eventually they don't need to just get through life, but that
20:35
you can learn how to live all the things that come up in life,
20:39
Storms and good times and calm times, boring times, all those
20:44
things, you learn how to live them without doing something
20:48
that's self-destructive at the same time.
20:50
It's still good. I want to say that over again,
20:53
the person in this 12 step group, wherever you met them,
20:55
they said that definition was son of a bitch.
20:57
Everything's real, right. And I just think about that
21:00
sober is my ability to be able to feel right.
21:04
And it's so cool because you can tie that that doesn't need to be
21:07
substance related. That's just might be able to
21:10
feel that that's sober. Sober, I feel, and I think
21:15
that's the reason why, you know, I just love Doctor Lemke's
21:21
Dopamine Nation. Just a fact of, of in my days of
21:26
acting out like I can't do pain, I don't want to do pain, and
21:30
pain is emotion. But if I'm sober, I'm allowing
21:33
myself to feel that and that pain's good.
21:35
It matters. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:38
I had one of my mentors, Doctor Christine Samuels, who's been
21:42
doing sex addiction since the 80s, along around, she kind of
21:45
tripped over it with a client around the same time that Doctor
21:49
Carnes was discovering it himself.
21:51
But she would always say when I act out, I don't feel, and when
21:56
I feel, I don't act out. And so part of recovery is
22:01
learning how to feel my feelings and tolerate them.
22:04
That's so good. Are you going to quote you?
22:06
You got like more quotes we can have like just give them to us
22:09
one more. Will you say that one more time?
22:11
Don't they say everything is derivative?
22:13
No one has original. Thoughts.
22:14
I know we just say it and we just change the words and then
22:17
we sound so original. We're like.
22:19
This is not me original, this is her and I like to quote, you
22:21
know, I feel it's valuable to quote people when they say
22:24
things. Some she would say.
22:25
When I act out, I don't feel, and when I feel I don't act out.
22:31
So. Yeah, so the solution is
22:33
learning. We call it here at the Center
22:36
for Intimacy is like emotional literacy, the ways that
22:40
masculinity and other things cause men to not be able to
22:43
really feel feelings because it would show weakness.
22:46
So we learned to cover it up, but men and women have their own
22:48
version. But to really learn what are my
22:52
feelings at any given moment? And then the next thing is
22:54
because many of the people are conflict avoidant, how to share
22:58
them. Those two things are are
23:02
essential for any kind of recovery.
23:04
Yeah, I'm reminded this is a long time ago and it was my own
23:07
12 step group, but I'd been there for a while and this guy
23:11
walks in and it was a 12 step group where partners could come.
23:15
It was an interesting 12 step group.
23:17
But I remember him sharing and he's like, I'm feeling and I
23:21
just don't like it. I hate it.
23:23
And I was reminded of the Grinch at the very end of the movie.
23:26
And he's trying to hold the sled up and he starts to cry out in
23:29
pain when it's so hard, grows like 3 sizes.
23:31
He's like I'm feeling, but it's just like so painful for him.
23:36
But it's also like and kind of related to the same pain that
23:42
happens at a gym. That's rewarding.
23:44
That becomes more enjoyable because it's a it's no longer
23:47
just about intense, it's purposeful pain.
23:51
Right. But that's also right if you
23:53
think about it right and this we're recording this in the
23:55
early, I think the second week of January of first week of
23:58
January. Most people sign up for gyms
24:02
this week or last week and eventually do stop because of
24:05
that reason, that it's too difficult 'cause it's
24:08
uncomfortable or they don't train right and they the pain
24:11
that either the pain of the workout or the pain of the
24:14
effort needing to be made. And the same thing is true with
24:17
feelings. Like most of us turn away from
24:19
our feelings, either because we didn't learn how to tolerate
24:22
them or because people wanted to protect us from pain so they
24:25
didn't. We didn't develop those muscles.
24:28
Yeah. Feelings are like they're like
24:30
waves. They eventually lose all their
24:31
energy if we just allow ourselves to feel it.
24:34
When we don't, they stay stuck inside.
24:36
They build up or we we push them really far down where we think
24:39
they don't exist anymore, but they're there.
24:42
I don't know if you ever saw the movie.
24:43
Thanks for sharing about sex addiction.
24:48
Oh yeah. They it's about a guy and
24:51
struggling with sex addiction. It goes into recovery.
24:53
Yeah. They have the sponsor, the know
24:55
it all sponsor who helps him, but then his own life is a mess.
24:58
It's a whole bunch of things, but one of the things they show
25:00
at the end, because he's dating a woman and I think, I don't
25:03
remember exactly what happens, but I they also show that she
25:06
has an addiction to exercise. And then he kind of looks at her
25:10
and she's like compulsively exercising the seeing the
25:12
similarity. She doesn't see it, but he can
25:15
see it. And so I yeah, the one that you
25:17
pointed out, compulsive exercise, like exercise and
25:20
work, we get praise for it mostly in society.
25:23
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting because
25:27
this one's the one that's biggest for me right now that
25:30
I'm tackling is because I get some my worth from my work.
25:33
You guys are around this all the time and I'm like, I'm enough
25:36
because of what's happening, whether it's somebody saying,
25:39
hey, nice job on that podcast. Hey, that's pretty cool.
25:42
Gary wants to join us. That may say something about
25:45
you, Luke. There could be these things.
25:47
And really it's just playing. It's something bigger that I'm
25:49
trying to tackle, which is pulling that out of unhealthy
25:52
obsession in ways when it's it's a journey.
25:56
I, I love the name of your podcast Luke, and I appreciate
25:58
your honesty here too. I, I struggled with the same
26:00
thing. And when I was about 7 years
26:03
into recovery and sober, I remember I, at that time I was a
26:07
teacher and I, I felt like I had to work all the time because how
26:10
much they pay teachers not enough.
26:12
So I worked at a school and I tutored after school and I ran a
26:16
youth program at a local synagogue.
26:17
And I would have friends say to me like, you're one of the
26:19
hardest working people I ever met.
26:21
And I'd be like, well, it's education.
26:22
You have to make a living. Then I changed fields and I work
26:27
just as hard. It's not about the thing, it's
26:31
about me, like all recovery is. But I remember around seven
26:34
years in, I changed jobs in education to where I basically
26:38
had a Monday through Friday, 9:00 to 5:00 job in a few hours
26:42
Saturday morning, and I crashed. Like I had to go back to therapy
26:47
because all the busyness pushed down all of my feelings.
26:52
I say all of them function in the world, but when I slowed
26:55
down and it, it's almost like the motion stopped.
26:59
And so the feeling just came up and I went right back to
27:02
therapy. Yeah, yeah.
27:03
Thanks. Thank you for sharing that.
27:05
Thank you for sharing that. And I think it's fairly common.
27:08
I'm not trying to put every in the same bucket board.
27:10
We're tackling toxic masculinity a big part of this podcast when
27:14
it's I'm enough because of these things that I do, when we're
27:17
trying to realize that my worth is intrinsic, it doesn't come
27:21
from that. So there's a lot of stuff coming
27:22
up here. That would be like another major
27:24
process of process addiction that often gets called out
27:28
around sex where the person, they're not necessarily the
27:30
person watching screens and porn all the time, but they're
27:33
engaging with other people. They're getting constant hits of
27:36
validate. You're hot.
27:37
You're just a micro ball text. Oh my God, you're so funny.
27:40
That would agree. You're so in touch with yourself
27:43
and that's more me than the screen guy.
27:45
Like the about the validation and then building a whole world
27:49
of validation around myself or the person doing it.
27:54
I'll just use myself so I can get validation from sex or being
27:58
desirable even. Not actually.
28:00
We talk about sobriety definitions, not acting out
28:02
sexually but still getting validation.
28:05
And my work life is created to give me validation.
28:08
The way I talk and share stories of, oh, let me tell you what
28:11
happened today and I get validation.
28:13
I'm so giving and loving to certain people.
28:16
I get validation. I'll sit on a board or I'll do
28:19
something else. I'll read the right books,
28:22
validation and let people know. Of course, I'll listen to the
28:26
podcast plug for yours validation.
28:29
So it builds a whole web of validation that keeps me feeling
28:33
good when I'm really need to get it from inside.
28:37
Why, when a partner pokes that House of Cards of validation
28:43
says Amen. That's only as simple as I'm
28:46
really having a hard day today because of the pain that I'm
28:48
feeling from your betrayal. Most people.
28:51
And that's how I heard it. It was like, you're terrible.
28:55
Yeah, they're not even close to saying that, but that's what we
28:58
hear, right? But because it's such a contrast
29:01
to the world of validation that I built up for myself.
29:04
And one of my strategies, it took me several years into this
29:07
current career to figure out is that when I felt, when I was in
29:10
a crisis, I started a new business or a new project
29:14
because it was a distraction. It was a way to feel good about
29:16
myself and get it. And also like I, my brain would
29:19
be thinking. So that's part of for me, what I
29:21
say for process addiction, it's about all the validation and
29:25
it's about like not necessarily through self-destructive things,
29:30
but I have to learn what's a healthy dose of that and then my
29:33
avoiding something else. So when I look at work with
29:36
people around their process addiction, yeah, they're coming
29:40
in probably to my practice usually around sex, but we have
29:43
to look at the whole thing because they can also use
29:46
recovery as part of their process addiction.
29:48
I got 5 spawn CS and I have the best shares and like, and it
29:51
wasn't so because that doesn't that's contrary.
29:54
But so it's like, how do you build a world that is constantly
29:59
propping you up? That's what we have to look at
30:01
all the different ways and how to again, all those things now
30:05
that are bad, but how do we have them in a healthier relationship
30:09
with them? Just like how do I have a
30:11
healthy relationship with sex, honesty, integrity, being
30:16
relational. How do I have a healthier
30:19
relationship with work? Well, am I ignoring my family?
30:22
Am I in the office all day? Am I doing too much or then that
30:26
allows me to feel justified in being grouchy to people when I
30:30
come home? How am I, you know, using my
30:32
recovery or my religion for validation?
30:36
Am I doing ways to get a pat on the back or let people see what
30:40
I'm doing, or am I doing it privately?
30:43
So there's nothing wrong with any of these things, but we have
30:45
to look at the web that's created that creates that
30:48
process and for the person. Yeah.
30:51
And I, I think that's my invitation.
30:54
Is is you all like I, once I allow myself to come out and
31:00
talk to somebody, I am able to start to have awareness of the
31:05
things that I couldn't see by myself in my own brain.
31:08
And Gary, I really value what you have us talking about.
31:11
And I really hope that you'll come for a Part 2 so we can dig
31:14
farther into this validation piece as a part of the process
31:17
addiction, because I think it's so much just in it.
31:21
It would be really fun to continue the conversation.
31:24
I'd love to. And I also just want to say for
31:26
people out there, if this resonates with you, whether it's
31:28
about yourself or your partner, having met Alan and Amy and now
31:32
you, like you guys are the perfect address for people who
31:36
are struggling with this. Like they want to learn a
31:38
broader and and deeper recovery to be able to have the life that
31:42
they really, really want to have or that they want to have with
31:45
their partner. Gary, I I appreciate it
31:48
connected with you today. If people want to connect with
31:50
you, how do they go about it? Because I encourage people to.
31:53
Yeah, our website isintimacyrecovery.com, so you
31:57
can go to our website there if you want to invite, whether it's
32:01
a therapist listening to this or also people like thinking about
32:04
seeking help for themselves can reach out to me directly.
32:07
I'm happy to have a conversation and help create, you know, guide
32:10
people towards what they're seeking.
32:12
And the best way to get in touch with me is my e-mail.
32:15
It's my name, Gary Katz, GARYKAT, z@intimacyrecovery.com.
32:22
So it's Gary Katz at intimacyrecovery.com.
32:25
Awesome. We'll put that in the show
32:26
notes, y'all. Gary, it is fantastic to have
32:28
you. Hope to have you back again.
32:30
Any closing thoughts for anybody?
32:32
That's I. Know that's like the worst
32:34
question ever it's. All I could say, yeah, all I
32:36
could say is that I just had it literally an hour before
32:40
recording this with you, with a client who was able to get,
32:44
instead of reaching to his wife to get that validation, the
32:48
process that he used to seek through all the different things
32:51
he did, he was able to come in and share it in from an internal
32:54
place. And so to me, the most beautiful
32:56
thing and it I, I just want to let people know that it is
32:59
possible that what you may be in a painful place because of
33:03
yourself or your partner, but recovery and good therapy can
33:08
really be life changing. And it's worth making the
33:12
investment in yourself for that. Really can thank you again,
33:15
Gary. It's good to hang out with you
33:17
and we will talk to everybody soon.
33:20
Take care. I want to speak to those who you
33:23
feel like you're wearing a mask, maybe that's coming up in your
33:25
recovery. Just more awareness of the mask
33:28
that you wear and you're really struggling to show your
33:31
authentic self. Like if people saw me, they
33:34
wouldn't be able to accept me. They wouldn't love me.
33:36
So that vulnerability piece, either somebody saying, hey,
33:39
you're not vulnerable enough, or you're like, I don't know, I'm
33:43
struggling with vulnerability and finding that genuine
33:46
connection specifically with people outside of your partner
33:49
and your partner. If that resonates.
33:52
I wanted to invite you to our Unmasked intensive in Spanish
33:56
Fork, UT. But it's a three day intensive
33:59
and it's hosted by Choose Recovery Services.
34:01
This experience is designed to help men who are ready to step
34:06
into self discovery and transformation.
34:09
So during the intensive let you know what you're an experience,
34:11
you're going to connect with other men that are in similar
34:14
places in your journey. You're going to explore the true
34:17
meaning of what actually is integrity.
34:19
This isn't just an honesty thing, it's an integrity thing
34:22
and remove the masks that you have on the maybe cultures, the
34:27
society is placed on you and you're going to gain a deeper
34:30
understanding of how your family of origin impacts your thoughts
34:35
and your actions today. And you're going to be able to
34:37
start on the journey of healing some of those inner wounds from
34:40
the past and how it's affecting your relationships today.
34:43
So again, Spanish Fork, UT it's going to be January 15th through
34:46
the 17th. Take some steps towards
34:49
reclaiming that authentic self. And this is a huge investment in
34:53
self when we recognize that. So if you want to learn more
34:56
about it, you can go to treasurerecoveryservices.com,
34:59
but we'll put in the show notes, more information.
35:02
If you have been considering this for a while, go ahead and
35:04
make the jump. I'm very excited to meet you.
35:07
I want to see you in person. Hi guys.
35:12
This is Laura with Choose Recovery Services and I wanted
35:15
to just let you know about an intensive that we have coming up
35:18
in Spanish Fork, UT from January 22nd to the 25th.
35:22
This is an intensive that Holly Roderick and I and Alana Gordon
35:25
will be running together and it's the Revive and Thrive
35:29
intensive. Something that Peter Levine says
35:31
is that trauma is physical. And because trauma is physical,
35:35
we need some physical component to that healing for it to move
35:39
through our bodies. And that's what this intensive
35:42
is aimed at. We have workshops, we have
35:45
experiences, we have lots of tools that we'll be sharing on
35:48
how to move trauma through your body in a physical, somatic way.
35:53
We hope you can join us. And For more information there
35:56
will be a link in the show notes or you're welcome to visit
35:59
chooserecoveryservices.com. Hope to see you there.
36:06
Hey, thanks for joining us today.
36:07
If this is something that you connected with, I'd love to meet
36:10
with you more and talk about it. So what you can do is go to
36:13
chooserecoveryservices.com or check the show notes and there
36:17
what we can do is set up a quick conversation.
36:20
Thanks so much for listening to Beyond the Facade where we
36:22
unmask the authentic itself.