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Transcript

Caring for your Pastor · Equipped for Impact

0:00
Nate: October is pastor appreciation month, which means a lot of churches are going to do the gift card, the cake in the fellowship hall, maybe a nice card signed by the deacons.
0:09
Nate: And all of that's good, but I don't think I've ever once heard a church ask what it would look like to raise their kids to actually care for their pastor instead of just consume what he gives them.
0:23
Luis: And that's a strange phrase for a lot of people, right?
0:27
Luis: Caring, shepherding, taking care of your pastor.
0:31
Luis: We're used to the arrow pointing in one direction.
0:34
Luis: The pastor is the one who feeds the flock.
0:37
Luis: He prays for the flock, he cares for the flock.
0:40
Luis: Nobody teaches a kid that the relationship is supposed to run both ways.
0:45
Nate: And I wonder how much of that is because we've never modeled it for them.
0:50
Nate: If a kid only sees their parents evaluate a sermon on the drive home, critique the music, rate the whole service like a restaurant, that's the only category they'll ever have for how Christians relate to the person who leads them.
1:03
Luis: Which means that we're not just failing to teach them something, we're actively teaching them the opposite thing without meaning to.
1:45
Luis: Yeah, and Nate, both of us have carried pastoral roles.
1:50
Luis: Yep.
1:50
Luis: And this one is personal for us in a way that maybe some of our other episodes haven't been, right?
1:56
Luis: We've been on the receiving end of what it feels like when a congregation only consumes, and we have felt the difference when a family actually shepherds takes care of the pastor, right?
2:08
Luis: Yep.
2:08
Luis: And so let's talk about what that actually looks like, starting with why the gap exists in the first place.
2:14
Nate: Yeah, so I think that's our our starting point is that a lot of church culture, even good, healthy church culture, has trained families to relate to their pastor like a service provider.
2:28
Nate: Like Lewis, have you heard the the illustration of churches like divides them into three types of like ships?
2:33
Nate: Have you ever heard that one?
2:35
Nate: So you've got like you've got the the the cruise ship model, where it's we come onto the ship and it's all about us and it's like a cruise ship, so it's all these activities and fun things and it's whatever makes you feel good.
2:47
Nate: And then there's the battleship model where it's like the the pastor is the captain of the boat and he like points at a target and everything on the ship like turns its attention to blast that target.
2:58
Nate: And then there's the aircraft carrier model where like you air the people are like the planes and they they're sent out on individual missions and then they come back to refuel, get new missions, and then they all get sent out.
3:09
Luis: Oh, that's really good.
3:10
Luis: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
3:10
Luis: I've not heard that before.
3:11
Nate: That's uh shout out to JD Greer uh Summit Church in Raleigh, North Carolina.
3:15
Nate: But that's where I got that is is him.
3:17
Nate: But I think this is like it's a good, it's a fun church, it's a big church, it's a growing church, but they see it like that cruise ship, right?
3:24
Nate: The pastor is just the captain of the cruise ship, so he's just here to make me comfortable and feel good, right?
3:31
Nate: So, you know, he's a service provider.
3:33
Nate: He preaches, he counsels, he shows up at the hospital, he officiates a wedding.
3:37
Nate: It's it's real, it's valuable, it's helpful, and we need that.
3:41
Nate: But if that's the whole relationship, the family's positioned as a consumer, and the pastor is, you know, that service provider, the staff.
3:49
Luis: Yeah.
3:50
Luis: And you know, when you think about staff, you think about consumers, then we begin to see ourselves as customers, right?
3:56
Luis: And when you're a customer, you evaluate was the And if I don't like it, I'm gonna take my business someplace else.
4:02
Nate: Yes, yes, right.
4:02
Nate: That's a podcast for a dip is a different podcast episode.
4:05
Luis: We need to do that one.
4:06
Nate: Okay.
4:06
Luis: And we need to email this episode to JD Greer at the Summit Church since we gave him a shout-out.
4:10
Nate: Shout out.
4:11
Nate: If JD, if you ever want to be interviewed on Equipped for Impact, give us an email.
4:16
Nate: Podcast at wingchristian.org.
4:17
Luis: We would maybe I'll just text him.
4:19
Nate: Okay.
4:19
Nate: You have his number?
4:21
Nate: I can probably get it.
4:22
Luis: Okay.
4:22
Luis: There's probably like six degrees of separation, but I could probably contact somebody who could contact somebody, who could contact somebody, who could contact somebody, who will get permission from him, and then they'll send it back down the line and get to me.
4:34
Nate: I think it'd be faster if he just emailed us at podcast at wingchristian.org.
4:38
Luis: But then I wouldn't get a personal text from him.
4:39
Luis: It's true.
4:40
Nate: You wouldn't.
4:40
Nate: So sorry.
4:41
Luis: All right.
4:42
Luis: So when you're a customer, you evaluate, right?
4:45
Luis: And was the sermon good today?
4:47
Luis: Did it hold my attention?
4:48
Luis: Did I get something out of it?
4:50
Luis: And none of those questions are necessarily wrong to ask, but if that's the only posture that your kid ever sees modeled, then they grow up without a framework for a mutual relationship.
5:02
Luis: They just see it as a transaction that either they got value from or that they didn't.
5:07
Nate: Yeah.
5:07
Nate: And I think, you know, you and I, Lewis, have seen this on both sides, right?
5:11
Nate: As the one who stands up in front of the church, you know, you can feel sometimes like you're being evaluated, you're being graded, they're grading you, your sermon, your leadership, whatever it is.
5:21
Nate: Like you get that feeling.
5:23
Nate: But then we also get to see this at our school, like you watch families and how they talk about their churches, and kids will absorb that posture of grading, rating, give us a review, you know, from their parents, and and the parents aren't necessarily saying it out loud.
5:40
Nate: Yeah.
5:40
Nate: They just are picking that up kind of from the subliminal messaging.
5:43
Luis: Yeah.
5:44
Luis: And that's because kids are remarkably uh remarkably good at picking up on unspoken categories, right?
5:50
Luis: So if dad, if you're running a commentary after church and it's always a critique, then your kid learns that that's what they do with a pastor, right?
6:01
Luis: If you evaluate his performance, nobody sits your kid down and teaches them, hey, that's what you do on purpose, right?
6:10
Luis: It just transfers because that's what they see every Sunday morning after the service.
6:16
Nate: Yeah, which means, you know, we don't just, you know, fix this with a lecture to our kids, right?
6:22
Nate: It's a different pattern that we have to model consistently enough that it becomes what's normal for our children instead of the kind of that old one that they've picked up by default.
6:33
Nate: So so let's kind of pivot here a little bit and and ground this, like we like to do, in scripture.
6:39
Nate: Like what is the relationship that scripture says should be in place between a pastor and their congregation?
6:47
Luis: Yeah, and when you look at scripture, right?
6:50
Luis: One of the first ones that we can go to is Hebrews 13, 17, right?
6:53
Luis: Yeah.
6:54
Luis: And that's one that will people will quote often, right?
6:56
Luis: It's obey your leaders, submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls.
7:01
Luis: But look at what you just said the S-word.
7:04
Luis: Souls.
7:04
Luis: Submit.
7:05
Luis: Submit.
7:06
Luis: Yeah.
7:06
Luis: We don't we don't like that S word.
7:08
Luis: People don't like that one, right?
7:09
Luis: But look at what comes right after that, right?
7:11
Luis: Yeah.
7:12
Luis: It says that if you do this as those who will give an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
7:23
Luis: And so the writer of the book of Hebrew, right, isn't just telling the congregation to submit, right?
7:31
Luis: He he he's telling them that their posture directly affects whether their leader serves them with joy or with exhaustion.
7:41
Luis: And so that's an interesting take.
7:43
Nate: Yep, that's really good.
7:44
Nate: And it's it's a connection that I think we miss sometimes because the health of the pastor and his joy is directly tied to how the congregation carries itself in submission and following his leadership, right?
7:59
Nate: So it's not framed as like the pastor's problem to manage, it's it's a whole community thing of everybody together making that connection so that the pastor can lead and care for them with joy.
8:12
Nate: Yeah.
8:12
Nate: Quick question though.
8:13
Nate: You said the author of Hebrews.
8:15
Nate: Like who is the author of Hebrews?
8:17
Nate: That's that's an episode unto itself.
8:20
Nate: Okay, okay.
8:21
Nate: That's an episode.
8:21
Luis: But that would make a really good theological discussion.
8:25
Luis: It was Paul.
8:26
Luis: I think Paul preached preached it.
8:28
Luis: And I think somebody transcribed it.
8:30
Luis: So Paul.
8:31
Luis: So so it was it was it was a sermon first, or it was written.
8:35
Luis: Because it doesn't follow the traditional letter, right?
8:38
Luis: Guidelines.
8:38
Luis: So I don't think that Paul would have forgot how to write a letter, and I don't think that people would have, you know, seen it as a letter.
8:45
Luis: But I think Paul spoke it.
8:46
Luis: Like I think it was a sermon he preached, and then m probab Luke, Timothy, somebody is writing down what he's saying.
8:56
Luis: Paul spoke it.
8:57
Luis: Yep.
8:58
unknown: It was Paul.
8:59
Luis: And so First Thessalonians podcast at wingchristian.org.
9:03
Nate: Send us your email.
9:04
Nate: Who wrote Hebrew?
9:05
Luis: Who wrote who wrote Hebrews?
9:06
Nate: Tell us your thoughts.
9:08
Luis: Hebrews, I'm sorry, First Thessalonians 5, 12, and 13.
9:11
Luis: It goes even further, right?
9:13
Luis: In this, who Paul did write, right?
9:15
Luis: Paul's asking the church to respect those who labor among them and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work.
9:24
Luis: And esteem very highly in love is the part that we want to focus on, right?
9:30
Luis: Because that's not passive politeness, that's this active posture where a family has to choose and practice it, right?
9:39
Luis: Like you are choosing to do this, and this is what it looks like.
9:44
Nate: Yeah, and then there's 1 Timothy 5, 17, where Paul is, you know, he's gone through the qualifications for elders and deacons and and all of this, and then he talks about elders who labor in preaching and teaching, and he says that they are worthy of double honor.
10:01
Nate: Double honor.
10:02
Nate: And and I think that's there's there's two things to look at there.
10:04
Nate: Like honor isn't just a feeling, like, oh, I like him, so I'm gonna honor him.
10:09
Nate: Like in that culture, it carried a very practical, tangible thing.
10:14
Nate: Like you were taking care of them, making sure they were provided for.
10:18
Nate: Essentially, like today, we'd say salary.
10:21
Nate: Like, like they are worthy of being paid a good salary, right?
10:25
Nate: And so the church should take care of them to make sure they are being honored, both in the way they're treated, but then also just how their needs are met.
10:35
Nate: Not just during October, which is Pastor Appreciation Month, but all year round.
10:39
Nate: Yeah.
10:40
Luis: And then Paul also asked the churches to pray for him, right?
10:43
Luis: In Ephesians 6, he says, praying at all times, and also for me that words may be given to me.
10:49
Luis: In Colossians 4, pray for us also.
10:52
Luis: And this is Paul that's writing this, right?
10:54
Luis: And so he's the one that is conveying this thought.
10:58
Luis: And he's asking ordinary believers, right?
11:00
Luis: Ordinary Christians in Ephesus and in Colossi to pray for him, right?
11:07
Luis: If Paul needed that, then I have to imagine that as pastors, right, we need it too, right?
11:13
Luis: I don't know a pastor alive who doesn't need prayer, right?
11:18
Luis: We need it.
11:18
Luis: We need it daily, we need it constantly.
11:21
Nate: Yeah, so so the biblical picture isn't just congregation attending, sitting passively, even though we just mentioned paying his salary, right?
11:30
Nate: But even paying him to do the ministry for you, which that's another episode.
11:35
Nate: But, you know, he's not just pouring out.
11:37
Nate: It's a household, a family that's coming together and praying for your pastor, honoring his labor, understanding how they carry themselves toward him and it how that actually shapes whether he leads with joy or he's leading an exhausted ministry.
11:54
Nate: That's really good.
11:55
Luis: So now let's let's make this concrete, right?
11:57
Luis: Because I know that there are parents listening to this right now, and they're wondering what this is gonna look like for them in their life.
12:04
Luis: Okay, so I hear you, I agree with you, uh what do I need to do next?
12:09
Nate: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:10
Nate: So I think the first thing is what we just ended on in when we were talking about the different scriptures.
12:15
Nate: Pray for your pastor, right?
12:18
Nate: By name, at your dinner table, at your devotion time, whenever it is, right?
12:22
Nate: Just like you would pray for a sick relative or a friend who's going through a hard time.
12:27
Nate: Like, this is not just a generic, oh, bless the pastor, tack to the end of your prayer, right?
12:31
Nate: It's specific.
12:32
Nate: Like, pray if you know that there's funerals in your church that he's got to be leading, how he's, you know, preparing a message on a difficult passage, right?
12:41
Nate: He's working through a book of the Bible and you know something's coming up.
12:44
Nate: Pray for wisdom for how he's leading your church.
12:48
Nate: You know, when when a kid hears their pra pastor prayed for by name specifically, regularly, all of that, it teaches them that the pastor is a person carrying real weight and and not just, you know, a fixture in the building who's gonna, you know, preach a message every Sunday.
13:05
Luis: And that's actually really good because I think it humanizes your pastor too, right?
13:08
Luis: Yeah.
13:09
Luis: Because I think today we live in this culture where pastors are elevated or put on a pedestal, right?
13:16
Luis: Which I think kind of goes into the next thing, right?
13:18
Luis: The second thing, and this one is going to take a lot of real discipline, and it's to guard what gets said about the pastor at home.
13:29
Luis: And we don't mean here that you pretend that every sermon is flawless or that every decision your pastor makes is beyond question, right?
13:37
Luis: Because that becomes kind of its own kind of dishonesty, right?
13:40
Luis: But there's a difference between being honest, disagreement, and how it's handled with respect and the kind of running critique that trains a kid to see that the pastor is a performer under constant r review.
13:57
Luis: And so it it's really good because it allows us to humanize the pastor.
14:05
Luis: Because if not, if we're constantly critiquing him, if we constantly are saying negative things about the pastor, then it almost dehumanizes that person to your kid because your kid knows and they've been taught since a very young age, we don't talk bad about people, but oh, it's okay to talk bad about the pastor.
14:25
Nate: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
14:25
Nate: And it's I've heard it said before, like it's not uncommon to go and see a bunch of people who are all very similar listening to music or an compelling speaker that they're all interested in.
14:37
Nate: Like that happens at any self-help conference or you know, a motivational speaker or any, you know, rock concert, music concert, whatever.
14:45
Nate: Like that happens.
14:47
Nate: And so we we take that into the church.
14:49
Nate: It's like, oh, well, I like the music here, I like the pastors preaching here, I like the whatever.
14:54
Nate: Well, no, like let's not sit here, we're not consuming we're here because we're the body of Christ.
14:59
Nate: And you can listen to last week's episode where we talked a little bit more about connecting to the local church, not just being a passive recipient.
15:06
Nate: I would say the third thing, specifically with your kids, if you've got little kids or even teenagers, like have your kids write him a note sometime.
15:14
Nate: That's really good, yeah.
15:15
Nate: Hand it to him, give him something that they made, you know, if they're you know smaller and they still like to make cards and all that, or let your kid actually pick out the card at, you know, Walmart or you know, Hallmark, wherever you go to get your cards.
15:28
Nate: And just tell him thank you.
15:29
Nate: Tell him something that you heard in his sermon, maybe even from a week ago, that still stuck with you and that you still remember, and like they will hear that.
15:38
Nate: It doesn't have to be something elaborate, right?
15:40
Nate: Just a kid handing a pastor a drawing or a short note does something for both the people in that exchange, right?
15:46
Nate: It teaches your kid that encouragement flows up towards the leaders and not just from them.
15:51
Nate: And it also gives the pastor something real to carry into a hard week.
15:56
Nate: Like, I don't know if you were this way, when I was young in ministry, someone encouraged me to keep like a folder of all the like thank you notes or like positive comments and things like that, to the point that like this was back when I actually still did social media, like somebody posted a it was a parent of a kid in my youth group, yeah, posted something on Facebook, and I remember printing it and like putting that in that folder.
16:18
Nate: So things like that, you just carry it through, and a pastor, lots of pastors do that.
16:23
Nate: It's just an encouragement that sticks with them.
16:25
Luis: I have a folder in my drawer where I put all that stuff in.
16:28
Luis: Yep.
16:28
Luis: And so that's that's a lot of fun.
16:30
Luis: Here's a fourth one, right?
16:31
Luis: And I think this one can easily be overlooked.
16:34
Luis: Teach your kids to notice when the pastor in his family is might be going through something difficult, and teach them to respond the way that they'd respond to anyone else in the church who's struggling.
16:47
Luis: Maybe a meal, maybe a card, maybe just simply asking how they're doing and and just listening to them, right?
16:55
Luis: Pastors and their families are often the last people that anyone ever thinks to check on because everybody just assumes that they're fine since they're the ones who are actually the ones that are supposed to be checking on everybody else.
17:09
Nate: Aaron Powell Yeah, and that that hits home, right?
17:11
Nate: Because it's so true.
17:12
Nate: Like everybody just expects, oh, the pastor should check on me, the pastor should know what I'm doing, whatever.
17:17
Nate: But we need to check on them because it's a body, it's the body of Christ.
17:20
Nate: And if one member hurts, they all hurt.
17:23
Nate: Yeah.
17:23
Nate: And that includes your pastor.
17:24
Nate: Your pastor is a member of your church, too.
17:27
Nate: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
17:28
Luis: Let's also be careful here, right?
17:30
Luis: Let's let's let's address the counterfeit, right?
17:33
Luis: Because we don't want this episode to be heard as just putting your pastor on a pedestal and and never questioning what they say, right?
17:41
Luis: Like you we've seen the harm in that.
17:44
Luis: And right now, if it it in in our culture, there's been multiple examples of pastors who have failed and churches didn't hold them accountable.
17:54
Nate: Yeah, a congregation that treats their pastor as beyond accountability isn't shepherding them well either, right?
17:59
Nate: They need that accountability.
18:00
Nate: Hopefully, you've got a team of pastors, elders, deacons who are all kind of like watching for each other.
18:07
Nate: And so that's just a different, you know, flavor of the consumer posture, right?
18:11
Nate: If you just flatter them instead of critique them, but you know, still relate to him as more as a symbol than a person.
18:18
Nate: You know, they are real people too, they need our help.
18:20
Luis: And when you read the Bible, right, scripture actually holds these two things together.
18:25
Luis: All right.
18:25
Luis: We, our church, I am a firm believer in the plurality of elders, right?
18:31
Luis: So multiple pastors making up the team of elders at a church.
18:36
Luis: And so elders, pastors are to be respected and honored, and they're also held to a high standard, and they are subject to correction when they are in sin.
18:48
Luis: In fact, Paul says this directly to Timothy, right?
18:52
Luis: Honor is never meant to mean immunity from truth or accountability.
18:58
Nate: Yeah.
18:58
Nate: So the goal isn't like uncritical admiration, right?
19:03
Nate: It's the same past p posture we talked about a couple of weeks ago with disagreement in general, if if you guys listen to that episode, right?
19:10
Nate: You need to hold truth and love together.
19:12
Nate: And so your family, if you disagree or you think something's not right, you can raise that concern in a biblical, respectful way and still be the kind of family that prays for him, encourages him, and and those two things are not in tension with each other.
19:28
Nate: And in fact, if if your pastor knows that you support him and you pray for him and you care for him, he's also more open to listen when you have some type of disagreement because he knows you're not just wanting something out of it.
19:42
Luis: Yeah.
19:42
Luis: And then the goal is that you have a kid now who grows up understanding that pastors are real people who are doing hard, heavy work, and that they are worthy of honor and prayer and encouragement.
19:54
Luis: And at the same time, they're also accountable, just like anyone else who's entrusted with responsibility, right?
20:02
Luis: They're not a performer for a grade.
20:05
Luis: They're not this untouchable figure that you never question, but they are a person to actually take care of and love and shepherd and encourage alongside the body of believers.
20:17
Nate: Yeah, that's that's really good.
20:18
Nate: So, Lewis, as we wrap up this episode, and you know, this is coming towards the end of Pastor Appreciation Month.
20:25
Nate: What what final words would you have for the parents listening today?
20:28
Nate: Yeah.
20:28
Luis: So if you didn't know this was Pastor Appreciation Month.
20:31
Luis: Surprise.
20:32
Luis: Now you know.
20:32
Luis: Now you know.
20:33
Luis: So make sure to appreciate your pasture somehow, right?
20:36
Luis: And a lot of times that's gonna show up as a gift card, as a nice card in the mail, and there's nothing right.
20:42
Nate: Reese's peanut butter cups.
20:43
Luis: Yep, uh, or a Twix or a Snickers.
20:46
Luis: Except if your pastor has diverticulitis.
20:49
Luis: Yeah, which is not good.
20:50
Luis: Then you can't give him a Snickers bar.
20:52
Luis: Um, but instead of that, just that's he can give his Snickers bar to his wife.
20:56
Luis: That's right.
20:57
Luis: But instead of just that, right, this week, do something with your family, specifically your kids, right?
21:04
Luis: Sit down together and pray for your pastor by name, write them a note together, or just simply have your kids tell them thank you the next time they see him.
21:15
Luis: It it doesn't have to be big, it can be something small, something that they just appreciate.
21:22
Luis: Um, and one where where your kids see their pastors as people that they can take care of, that they can support.
21:30
Luis: Um, and it's not just somebody who they consume from.
21:33
Nate: Yeah, yeah, that's really good.
21:35
Nate: Um so so hopefully this landed at the right time for you all as you are caring for your pastor this month at Pastor Appreciation Month.
21:43
Nate: If you found this episode helpful, please share it with another parent who needs to hear it this week.
21:49
Nate: And also don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss our next episode.
21:53
Nate: But until then, keep leading the next generation to stand firm in their faith and influence the world for Christ.