Latest / Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast / Issue 386: Affirming Anakin

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Issue 386: Affirming Anakin · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the note party.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Hi, this is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: The Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
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  Speaker 2: are listening to Aggressive Negotiations.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Well, hello in Welcome to Aggressive Negotiations, a slice of
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  Speaker 3: Oh shucks, Matt. And let's point out that that list
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  Speaker 1: Well, I am just so excited that that people are listening.
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  Speaker 1: So check all of those places out. We would really
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  Speaker 1: appreciate it. So this topic actually comes from a book
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  Speaker 1: that I have been reading for work, and it was
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  Speaker 1: called Practicing Affirmation. And interestingly enough, the book is all
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  Speaker 1: about this idea of how giving people words of affirmation
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  Speaker 1: are incredibly helpful in the relationships we have. And one
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  Speaker 1: of the examples that they used was actually the relationship
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  Speaker 1: between Anakin and Palpatine in the prequels, and the fact
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  Speaker 1: especially we see this right in episode three, Palpatine is
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  Speaker 1: continuously giving Anakin affirmation and of course flattery mixed in
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  Speaker 1: as well, and in doing so, he is undercutting the
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  Speaker 1: relationship that Anakin has with the Jedi, who seemed to
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  Speaker 1: be incapable of giving him any compliments whatsoever except for
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  Speaker 1: once in a blue moon. So this is the question
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  Speaker 1: I wanted to pose to you, John, do you think
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  Speaker 1: that if the Jedi, and specifically obi Wan, had taken
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  Speaker 1: an approach with Anakin to where instead of always on
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  Speaker 1: the things he's doing wrong, working on affirming the things
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  Speaker 1: he's doing right, instead of leading with the stick, they
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: led with the carrot, that that would have helped Anakin
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  Speaker 1: turn out to be a different type of person.
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  Speaker 3: You know, I'm not going to pillary obi Wan so
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  Speaker 3: much as much as I love to to get under
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  Speaker 3: your skin, because we do see obi Wan on screen
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  Speaker 3: providing love and support and affirmation for Anakin. He's very
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: tough on him in episode two, that is true, that
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  Speaker 3: is yes, but in episode three he is very supportive.
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  Speaker 3: They're more equals than anything. So what I will do
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  Speaker 3: is I will take obi Wan and I will couch
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  Speaker 3: it in. Obi Wan's greatest flaw as a teacher is
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  Speaker 3: that Anakin needs a father figure. I think that affirmation
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  Speaker 3: from a parental figure carries more weight than affirmation from
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  Speaker 3: a sibling or a friend. We all want mom and
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  Speaker 3: dad to love us and to tell us that we're
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  Speaker 3: doing well and that they're proud of us. Anakin's quote
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  Speaker 3: unquote dad figure is trying more and not even trying
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  Speaker 3: more is naturally, more like a buddy, like a brother.
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  Speaker 3: You or my brother, Anakin. I loved you. They were brothers.
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  Speaker 3: What Anakin needed was a father. So I think that's
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  Speaker 3: the important aspect here with Anakin's need for affirmation is
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  Speaker 3: the father figures, let's say, Yoda, Mace Windu, other members
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  Speaker 3: of the Order, especially on the Council, they're the ones
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  Speaker 3: that are way too harsh. The authority figures in his
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  Speaker 3: life are way too harsh. Now, again, that ties into
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  Speaker 3: the fact that Obi Wan is not seen by Anakin
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  Speaker 3: as an authority figure per se. He's seen as somebody
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  Speaker 3: he respects. He's seen that somebody he will listen to,
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  Speaker 3: but not an authority figure in the same way a
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  Speaker 3: parent is. So I think that I would pair it
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  Speaker 3: up with Yes, affirmation is important, but who the affirmation
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  Speaker 3: comes from is just as important.
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  Speaker 1: That's yeah, that's really really interesting. The reason that I'm
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: I'm somewhat shocked by what you just said is because
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  Speaker 1: as I was thinking about this, and this might shock you,
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  Speaker 1: I was harder on Obi Wan, especially when I think
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  Speaker 1: of the way he's acting with Anakin in episode two,
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  Speaker 1: And I think that what it comes down to to
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  Speaker 1: me is that Obi Wan is falling into that trap
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  Speaker 1: that we all tend to do when somebody around us,
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  Speaker 1: especially someone we're in some sort of authority figure relationship with,
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  Speaker 1: who is acting up or not acting the way we
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  Speaker 1: want them to, where we only focus on the negative
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  Speaker 1: and what they're doing, and so all the words that
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  Speaker 1: we say to them are negative. We're never saying anything
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  Speaker 1: positive to them, and in the end what happens is
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  Speaker 1: that just turns into a dripping faucet where it just
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: becomes obnoxious and annoying and something we turn off listening to.
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  Speaker 1: And I think so when I was seeing this in
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  Speaker 1: the book and then putting into the context of what
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: I had read in the book so far and then
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  Speaker 1: the rest of it, I really did come to conclusion
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  Speaker 1: that I do believe that if the Jedi themselves in
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  Speaker 1: some ways, because I think this, especially with the prequel Jedi,
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  Speaker 1: we tend to kind of see this, right, they have
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: become so dogmatic and so stuck in their ways that
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: when somebody doesn't live up to the standard, right, the
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: way they seem to deal with everybody is just to
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: pick at where they're not living up to the standard,
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  Speaker 1: instead of also holistically building that person up. Because everybody
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  Speaker 1: has good qualities and bad qualities, and we all have
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  Speaker 1: things we have to learn, and yet they seem to
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  Speaker 1: focus too much on the negative, which seems so interesting
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  Speaker 1: because it's that's you know, it almost seems like a
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  Speaker 1: touch of the dark side, right, only focusing on the negative.
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  Speaker 3: I understand what you're saying. I don't dismiss it, and yes,
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  Speaker 3: I agree. We've both mentioned episode two at this point
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  Speaker 3: where obi Wan is more than a little harsh with
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  Speaker 3: Anakin in episode two. But I'm saying by episode three
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  Speaker 3: we see that their relationship has evolved. Yes, yeah, but
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  Speaker 3: by that point, you know what, let's blend them together.
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  Speaker 3: Let's say that by that point in episode three, the
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  Speaker 3: damage is already done, which leads back to your point
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  Speaker 3: about a dripping faucet. Maybe by episode three things are
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  Speaker 3: quote unquote better, but obi Wan, that dripping faucet has
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  Speaker 3: undercut wherever they're at at that point. Even if you
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  Speaker 3: weigh in the Clone Wars stuff, obi Wan still has
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  Speaker 3: a very constant note of oh, Anakin, you could have
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  Speaker 3: done better. Oh Anakin, Come on, what I want to do,
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  Speaker 3: because you're talking about is this endemic in the Jedi
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  Speaker 3: Is I think that there's also something where the Jedi
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: might not learn their lesson because there are very resilient
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  Speaker 3: people within their Where I'm going with this is Doku
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  Speaker 3: is trained by Yoda, Dooku trains Qui Gon, you and I,
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  Speaker 3: And I think most fans would agree that negative sentiment
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: if it existed, which I would say in Tails of
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  Speaker 3: the Jedi, you can see very much dou carries himself
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  Speaker 3: with an air of he might not say something cutting
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  Speaker 3: to you, but if you don't quite make the example
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  Speaker 3: he's leading, you're going to know it and it's not
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  Speaker 3: going to necessarily be pleasant. But I want to ask you,
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  Speaker 3: do you think that that is a way to like,
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  Speaker 3: was Douku a better teacher than he intended to be
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  Speaker 3: or that other Jedi were because he didn't give voice
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  Speaker 3: to his disappointment. He would say to Qui Gon, oh,
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  Speaker 3: you know that's a great point. I. You know, you're
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  Speaker 3: you're turning into a great man, all those sorts of things.
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  Speaker 3: But then if if Qui Gon fell short, I think
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  Speaker 3: you get this air that Duku would just say do
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  Speaker 3: you think that was best? Okay? And give basically reflect
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  Speaker 3: it back. So is it ironic then that maybe Douku
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  Speaker 3: even though he falls to the dark side, did what
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  Speaker 3: you're talking about where it was the more practicing affirmation.
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  Speaker 3: He only gave voice to things in such a way
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  Speaker 3: that supported Qui Gon's better aspects, encouraged him along the path.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I wish to think about this, because
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  Speaker 1: as you were talking, I was thinking, Okay, you know,
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  Speaker 1: Dooku has Yoda as a master, and one of the
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  Speaker 1: things I'm always struck by about Yoda is the way
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  Speaker 1: in which he treats everybody with such respect, and especially
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: you know, I think of that episode of the Clone
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: Wars Ambush right where it's the first episode that we
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: see of the television show when it comes on the
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  Speaker 1: air and he's talking to the Clones and he's talking
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  Speaker 1: about how they're all people and their own right, they
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  Speaker 1: all have their own personalities, telling them they all matter, right,
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  Speaker 1: And I think what struck me with that was he
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  Speaker 1: has the ability, it seems like, to actually reach in
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  Speaker 1: and do that thing.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: What we're talking about, the affirmation of the best character
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  Speaker 1: qualities of a person that they should be striving for
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  Speaker 1: as a Jedi or just as a person, and to
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  Speaker 1: then build those up and it almost seems like you know,
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  Speaker 1: he must have been able to pass some of that
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  Speaker 1: on to Dooku in some ways, because I think, like
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  Speaker 1: you said, he Qui Gon seems to be a character
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  Speaker 1: who also has the ability to maybe see the best
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  Speaker 1: in people instead of the worst. And so, you know,
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  Speaker 1: and it brings me back to the thought process too
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  Speaker 1: of like a subject that we have talked about, why
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  Speaker 1: weren't other Jedi, especially like Yoda, more in charge of
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  Speaker 1: training Anakin and if they had been there to be
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  Speaker 1: those type of figures in his life, you know, good cop,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: bad cop, you know, good parent, bad caarent kind of thing. Uh,
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  Speaker 1: you know, Like I just I think as I watch Anakin,
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  Speaker 1: he's obviously a character who's just kind of starved for affection,
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  Speaker 1: and he's starved for his desire for for people to
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  Speaker 1: love him and care about him, and and also I
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  Speaker 1: think to feel like he is worth something, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, and and so I really see that this
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: could have had an incredible impact. And I think that
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  Speaker 1: if Obi Wan and the and the Jedi themselves had
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  Speaker 1: been more loving towards Anakin holistically and saw his good
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  Speaker 1: qualities as well as his bad qualities and actually focus
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: on those good qualities, especially the way that Palpatine is
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  Speaker 1: able to do that, except not do it in a
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  Speaker 1: flattery sense, but do it in a sense this is
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: actually true, right, the character qualities that Anakin has that
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: are actually good, that you are commendable and point those
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: out to him. I don't know if Palpatine would have
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: been able to get under his skin as much.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: You are correct. Like at a baseline, you and I,
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: any disagreement we have isn't even really a disagreement. We're
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: sort of trying to figure out how the Jedi could
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  Speaker 3: have done it differently. Completely agree with you. If somebody
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: comes in and they tell you they give you the
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  Speaker 3: type of attention you want, even if that is a
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: toxic person, you will glom onto them and you will
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  Speaker 3: love them because they are giving you the type of
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  Speaker 3: affirmation you want. Completely agree, absolutely, rock solid premise. To
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  Speaker 3: speak to the Jedi part of it, I think that
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  Speaker 3: it's not an excuse, but I think it's a reason
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  Speaker 3: that the Jedi are the way they are with Anakin
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  Speaker 3: in specific. I think Anakin is a special case. I
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: don't think that all of the Jedi were this way
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  Speaker 3: with their Padawans. I don't think that's possible. Although I
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  Speaker 3: would say, Anakin at first is that type of teacher
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: to Ahsoka. He softens, Yes, at first, he is that
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  Speaker 3: way with Ahsoka, always constantly just harping on her and
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: being tough on her. And there there is actually that
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: great Tales of the Jedi episode where you see him
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: being excessively difficult with her in that training exercise about
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: deflecting attacks from living beings, and she gets discouraged. Anakin
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: come in and says, I'm doing this because this could
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: save your life. It's because I love you that I'm
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: doing this exactly. Yep. Maybe Anakin doesn't get enough of
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: that explanation given to him, and maybe what it is
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: is again the weight of the prophecy. Yes, he's supposed
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: to be the chosen one. So everybody, I would say,
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: is being excessively negative, because one I will cop to
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: this with my own kids. I get called out on
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: it every so often, where my children will call me
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: out every so often, and I have to say to them, well,
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: I'm being this tough on you because I know what
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: you're capable of, and so I'm not accepting anything less
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: than that. But then they're you know, I understand, I
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: have to readjust and all of those sorts of things.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: Is it possible that, when the Jedi come to accept
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: in one degree or another, that Anakin is the quote
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: unquote chosen one, there's a part of them that is
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  Speaker 3: angry at Anakin because he is not delivering that solution
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  Speaker 3: in a quick enough timeline. He's the chosen one, He's
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: gonna bring balance and he's twenty Why haven't you brought
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: balance yet? He's twenty one? There's a war the hell man?
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah right, how are you gonna bring okay? Fine, solve
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: the war? Okay? And that builds and builds and builds,
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: where everybody's saying, yea, what chosen One? He hasn't done.
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: And maybe there's a baseline resentment. What do you think
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: about that? Where there's like, whether they're aware of it
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: or not, there's a baseline not in Yoda, not in Yoda,
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: but in a lot of Jedi, this sense of disappointment
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: that's inform the way they're interacting with him.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, it could be that's that. I mean, that
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: is a really interesting thing. And I mean, you know,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: we've talked about it, I think plenty of times. You know,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: the the one of the big issues is just letting
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: somebody know that you believe they're special, and that creates
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: a whole other, you know, psychological issue. And I think
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: maybe even letting other people know other than the coman
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: who in the only the Council should know this. M
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: Anakin should know this, and no other Jedi I should
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: know this. So, you know, I do think that that
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: could could definitely have a big part of this. You know,
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: I think you could be right, there could be resentment.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: I mean you could even see maybe you know, somebody
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: like a Pong Krell feeling this way about somebody like
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: an Anakin or whatever and be like, oh, well, he's
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: He's not the only one who's special, you know, And
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: so yeah, I could absolutely see that being the case.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: I think one of the interesting things about this is
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: is that there are plenty of places where the whole
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: idea of the carrot and the stick, right, the stick
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: is always there. With the whole thing with the horse
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: is that he can't see the stick, right, So what's
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: there and constantly motivating him is the promise of a carrot.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: And in some ways, you know, I think that's the
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: way that you know, it comes with this subject of Anakin.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Anakin was a character I think who needed the carrot
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: in front of him and the stick would be there
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: when needed. But I think what he needed as a
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: person was more tender, loving care than kind of this
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: legalistic rule following in a little bit of room to
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: be able to find himself. And and you know, I
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: think the place where and it's not Obi Wan's fault
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: but in honesty completely because I think he's trying to
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: do the best job how he knows to do it,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: and he's dealing with a situation he's not quite ready for.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: And the beauty is, like you mentioned, Anakin kind of
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: shows where I think he learned that lesson of what
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: he needed, and he's the one who then gives that
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: to Ahsoka when he says to her in the Clone
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: Wars film, you wouldn't have made it as obi Wan's padawan,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: but you might just make it his mind. And why
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: it's because he's willing to give her space to figure
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: out how she needs to be taught, right, He's willing
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: to give her space to allow him to learn what
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: do you need most? And then how can I give
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: that to you? Which makes it really interesting And that's
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: and I think that's one of the things where because
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: of his experience, he was able to see that. You know,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: Obi Wan doesn't have that experience in that sense. He
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: only knows what his master did. He's also dealing with
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: the trauma of losing his master uh and then having
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: to this thrust upon him before he's really kind of
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: ready for it. You know. I think in many ways,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Anakin was actually ready to train Ahsoka. I think, you know,
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: obi Wan, I think Yoda realizes that, right. And the
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: reason he's ready is because he also is ready to
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: kind of really hopefully learn the lesson that Yodo does
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: want to teach him of letting go, which he was
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: going to have to do one day with this character.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: And so but that's a completely different place than where
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: Obi Wan was.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: He wasn't completely ready for this, but he has this
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: thing thrust upon him that he's not quite ready to handle,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: and that makes it really fascinating because Anakin is actually
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: not a bad master to Ahsoka, as we've talked about,
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: and I think a lot of the lessons that he
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: learned and he kind of intuitively feels in his heart
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: that he wanted he then gives to her, and it's
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: actually kind of really beautiful.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: I agree, it is lovely points all of those, and
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: I think that it's a great point to go out
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: on while also teasing maybe a future topic for us
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: to discuss is obi Wan, to your point, wasn't ready
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: for his master to die like he did in front
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: of him. It's very traumatic. And then he's thrust into
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: this role after defeating the first sith Lord that anybody
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: has encountered in a very long time, knowingly encountered in
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: a very long time, defeats him handily, and Anakin is
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: given a potawan to teach him how he has to
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: let go, and that's supposed to be part of why
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: obi Wan is ready to have Anakin. And maybe obi
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: Wan's being difficult and Anakin is because he's still processing,
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: he's still unsure of where he is. But also he
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: never lets Anakin go. He never has to let Anakin go.
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: Anakin becomes a knight, and they're still going around as
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: if they're teacher and pupil, master and apprentice. Right.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: Well, and just let me interject real quick, because as
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: you're saying that, I'm also thinking he also has the
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: added weight of that this is the possible chosen one, right,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: So he's like I can't screw this up. So you
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: think about the actual pressure that then he's under. It's
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: no wonder that he turns into somebody who is working
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: very diligently to try and shift Anakin's way of thinking
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: and doesn't quite know the best way to do that.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: Now, remember also that it's as we're having this discussion,
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: it's great because I just rewatched the last episode of
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: season one of the Clone Wars, because now that we're
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: nearing the end of Rebels, I'm trying to get my
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: youngest to start watching the Clone Wars with me, to
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: be like, oh, you know, we can keep the fun going.
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: God bless you Lucasfilm Animation for so much great content.
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: Just that's a parenthetical, but Anakin mentions in the last
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: episode of that season that he's supposed to be going
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: on a two week meditative retreat, and it seems to
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: me that we're sitting here and we're talking about all
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: of the ways that the practicing affirmation would have helped Anakin,
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: and I agree that it would have. Absolutely, they were
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: too harsh on Anakin, but let's not discount the fact
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: that Anakin has a baseline immaturity. Because instead of going
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: on that two week meditative retreat. He's trying to talk
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: padme into going off and having us dudo honeymoon trip
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: with him, and I think it's it's important to couch
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: all all of our discussion in the fact that Anakin
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: and I think you'll agree with me. I know you'll
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: agree with me on this. Anakin is still baseline responsible
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: for his own decisions and actions. Practicing affirmation is a
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: way to support and lift someone up, but at the
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: end of the day, Anakin is responsible for where he
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: ends up, which I think is actually, you know, maybe
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: this is one last point to hit. We have our
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: practicing affirmation discussion, we have who's responsible point here, And
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: in the Obi Wan series, I credit them for the
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: moment where Vader says to obi Wan, you didn't kill
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: Anakin Skywalker. I did. And so there's sort of an
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: odd thing here in the context of this discussion that
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: we can sit there and we can talk about practicing affirmation,
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: but somehow in that moment Anakin was quote unquote Anakin
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: was mature enough to realize that he was responsible for
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: his own downfall, which really creates an odd philosophical moment
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: to ponder about Vader as a whole.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: I think what it does help us do as we're
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: having this discussion, I think one of the most helpful
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: things about this is it actually does help us to
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: be able to see some of the ways in which
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: the Jedi had in some ways kind of lost to
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: some things. And I do think in some ways some
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: of that lostness it was actually that dogmatic nature in
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: them that allow that had them kind of almost trying
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: to beat the truth into people instead of you know,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: finding some sort of I don't know, different way to
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: do it. And I think it's almost like this, and
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: again it comes back to the difference with with with
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: I was talking between what we want and Anakin and
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: where they trade their padawes. Is that saying there's just
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: one way to do it. That dogmatism became like this
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: is how we train, this is what we do, and
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: you know, we don't really deviate from that. And the
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: interesting thing is is, obviously we saw other masters and
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: apprentices on the show and the Clone War specifically, I
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: think of like bears Offie and Lumindara Unduly being on
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: the show, and you know, they have different styles, but yeah,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I do think maybe this is just
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: a place where the Jedi had maybe lost something, and
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: Anakin does kind of become one of the people who
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: suffers from that, and not just him, but I mean,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: you know, obviously Barris Off he also turns right, so
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: she you know, Anakin's not the only one who makes
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: a turn because of experiences with the Jedi. So it
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: seems like maybe this problem, you know, as we're talking
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: about it, it's a little more pronounced than just you know,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: Obi Wan and Anakin. It's it's it's a problem with
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: across the order at this point. And so yeah, it
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: just it's interesting to me like this it it goes
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: to show and we were kind of talked about this
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: before we started recording in some ways, but like you know,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Star Wars from Lucas and his thought process behind the
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: series was because he's basing it on mythology in all
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: these different mythologies, and the way in which those mythologies
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: help tell us stories about the human condition. And so
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: it's no wonder then that a subject matter like whether
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: or not you know, affirmation could have helped a character
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: become a different character, because that's part of the human condition,
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: you know. And I just again that's just really interesting
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: to me, you know, and so I kind of love.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: It with good reason. And this is another one of
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: those topics where I thank you for bringing this one
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: in because this is this is another one of those
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: ones that reminds me the prequels came out decades ago
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: and we can still have rich conversations like this about
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: them because Lucas doesn't sit there and try to tell
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: us what the answer is. He shows us what the
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: outcome is if you do it in a selfish fashion.
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: But he doesn't pretend to think, oh, well, I can
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: tell you this is what the jet I should have done.
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: He leaves us here to say, well, what could they
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: have done better? Here? And so I love this topic.
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: But what I would truly love is for people to
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: reach out to you online and to ask you any
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: further questions about affirmation or practicing affirmation that they would have.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: So where can they find you online?
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Well, I'll over social media under the name Matt Rushing
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: zero two. If I'm on that platform, that's my name.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: You can also, of course find me here on the
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: network with the completed show outpost about every single chapter
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: the Harry Potter series. One chapter of the time, I'm
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: over on the TFM network with a bunch of shows.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: The six or two Club is a great place to
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: hang out where we talked about all of these franchises
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: that we love, plus a ton of Star Trek talk
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: over there with my friend Chris Jones. So check us
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: out over there. But John, you know, maybe people want
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: to get your Padawan training advice. Where would they find you?
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: Oh? Advice? No, no, no, I just need an editor
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: for my book, My Patawan and Me, a several year
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: journey by Jedi Master John Mills. It's going to be
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: a best seller. Trust me. You can find me online.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: It's Kessel Junkie and you can find me right here
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: on the network. Co hosting a show called house Lights.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: We have a lot of fun, especially when there's a
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: director that one of us has hit where they haven't
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: seen everything, because that leads to a lot of hilarity.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: But Master Rushing, we have to go back and we
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: have to answer for our actions here. I feel like
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: they're being a little too harsh on us. But regardless,
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: I guess it's time to close these negotiations.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: John Negotiations, My good join the Revolution Joint, the Nerd Party,