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Tips for Parenting a Toddler with Head of Growth from Adobe | Dad of 1 · Startup Dad

• [00:00:00] Michael Leibovich: Changing the channel we is just like the shorthand for us of like, Try to get her onto a different like wave, you know? And so I think the classic times are like, you know, when she's like, I don't wanna take a bath, and she's having a meltdown, and it's like, okay, what can we do? [00:00:16] Adam Fishman: Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast where we dive deep into the lives of dads who are also leaders in the world of startups and business. I'm your host, Adam Fishman. Parenting a toddler requires an unending supply of patience, and today I'm joined by Michael Leibovich to talk about it. He's the head of growth at Adobe and the GM of their Behance platform. [00:00:38] Adam Fishman: He's worked at Vimeo, AppFolio, and Abstract, and prior to all of that was a professional touring musician. More importantly, he's a husband and the father of a two and a half year old daughter. We talked about patience, both with a two and a half year old and with aging parents. He also told me about a unique approach that he and his wife take for getting parenting advice that doesn't involve the internet. [00:01:02] Adam Fishman: Some frameworks for working with a toddler, including change the channel. How becoming a dad has changed his approach to leading teams and an incredibly cool use of AI for exploring new mealtime options for a picky eater. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to Startup Dad on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple. [00:01:22] Adam Fishman: Hello Michael. Welcome to Startup Dad. It's a pleasure having you here with me today. Thanks for joining me. [00:01:30] Michael Leibovich: Thanks so much. I'm excited to be here, Adam. [00:01:32] Adam Fishman: Alright. I wanted to give a special first shout out to Ben Erez, who connected the two of us. I recorded a fantastic episode with Ben a little while back. That's gonna release in a couple of weeks. So we are all, in the shadows of greatness here, [00:01:48] Michael Leibovich: Ben said he had a lot of fun. [00:01:50] Adam Fishman: I've been told often that this is the most fun podcast that people are ever on. [00:01:53] Adam Fishman: So [00:01:54] Michael Leibovich: Ooh, that's a high bar. [00:01:55] Adam Fishman: I don't know. I'm just saying. okay. Well I'm really excited for this conversation. Thank you, Ben, for introducing the two of us. you, sir, have a two and a half year old daughter and a spouse who also works full-time outside of the home, with a two and a half year old. haven't had a two and a half year old in a while, but if I recall, is the name of the game. tell me a little bit about what you are learning about patience with a two and a half year old [00:02:23] Michael Leibovich: I think I'm kind of learning everything about patients. like in our day jobs, you know, we're sort of rewarded for not being patient. You know, there's kind of this like, be decisive, let's go, let's make decisions. and like what I'm finding with, you know, I mean really since our daughter was born up to now is just this whole like. [00:02:44] Michael Leibovich: Learn to trust the process. which is kind of a new, I think, muscle for me to, to flex and develop. And, our daughter is like wanting to do everything by herself, which takes 10 times longer. [00:02:57] Michael Leibovich: And there's sort of this constant like negotiating of like, you know, okay, do we have an, do we have the extra 10 minutes for her to put a sock on? and so it's like taking a step back and just kind of realizing like she's developing, like she's an independent human being. it's exciting. [00:03:15] Michael Leibovich: It's, you know, it's like such an honor to, to get to experience that, but my initial gut reaction is always like, put on the effing sock. Like, let's go, you know? and so, you know, it's always this like tug and pull, I think especially, waking up in the morning with her, then transitioning into sort of workday and sort of bringing a different kind of energy and then sort of transitioning back into dad mode. [00:03:37] Michael Leibovich: and you know, trying, trying to learn to toggle that on a bit more. [00:03:41] Adam Fishman: you know, not that you've been doing this for that long with a two and a half year old, but do you have any ways that you kind of get in and out of dad mode when it's, you know, work time versus dad time? [00:03:54] Michael Leibovich: I had heard a few other people kind of recommend this and you know, I've been working remote now for, at least six years. And so I think it's especially challenging 'cause you're sort of in under the same roof making that transition. you know, I've been, I. Fairly like, good and disciplined about kind of keeping like my office space, like when I'm in here, this is work and I step out of that door you know, it's like I just leave it behind. [00:04:21] Michael Leibovich: And like having a physical space that can help, I think, make that transition has been really helpful. You know, I think the other thing is like leaving the phone, you know, if I want to be constantly plugged into work, you know, there's, there's a hundred tools for me constantly vying for my attention. [00:04:39] Michael Leibovich: And so having to also sort of say, okay, I'm, I'm gonna put the phone, I'm gonna leave the phone in the office until she goes down, you know, and sort of having a physical space has made that transition a lot easier. and has helped my brain. I think also disconnect and sort of go, okay, here I am, I wanna be present in this moment. [00:04:57] Adam Fishman: Yeah, it's like your little, uh, severance moment, step through [00:05:00] Adam Fishman: the threshold dad [00:05:02] Michael Leibovich: Totally. Yes. So I'm like, you know, in any mode, Mike is like, in the office, Audi mode goes out to like hang out with his daughter. [00:05:11] Adam Fishman: Love that. Love that. Okay. I, I would be remiss if I did not ask you, uh, if you have a story of your and a half year old, doing something that really pushed the limits of patience. like an incredibly frustrating, obviously there's the 10 minute sock. [00:05:32] Adam Fishman: I think everyone's probably had the 10 minute sock putting [00:05:34] Adam Fishman: on exercise. what is one of the, like most patients trying moments for having a, a toddler. [00:05:42] Michael Leibovich: think what's so funny about that question is like all the examples seem so mundane. You know, like I have a hundred versions of the sock story. Like just this morning it was the only cereal that we had was Special K. [00:05:57] Michael Leibovich: And so I port a bowl, she's like starting to eat cereal in the morning and she was like, I don't want strawberries. [00:06:04] Michael Leibovich: And I'm like, I'm sorry. You like strawberries. [00:06:07] Adam Fishman: Was it the special K with the red berries, like [00:06:10] Michael Leibovich: Yes. The red berries. Yes. Yeah. [00:06:12] Adam Fishman: delicious cereal, [00:06:13] Adam Fishman: let's be honest. [00:06:13] Michael Leibovich: she eats like the dried red berries, like on her own. We get 'em from Trader Joe's. And so I'm like, I don't understand the connection here. And we're sort of having this debate and I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna pick the strawberries out. [00:06:25] Michael Leibovich: You know, I'm like trying to sort of explain like, you can eat around the strawberries. Like it's not the end of the world, but it was. Complete meltdown. My wife's outta town for work, so I, it's just like me on duty here. And, there are those types of stories where I'm, I'm like, there's two things happening. [00:06:41] Michael Leibovich: There's some clear emotional response she's having, and then there's all the, you know, the way that I kind of move through life, which is like, less emotional, a little bit more rational. I'm trying to like, reason with her. I'm, you know, and so, you know, the hardest challenge too has also just been like trying to meet her where she's at, I think advice that friends have given in the past is just like, you know, first recognize that she's frustrated that she doesn't want strawberries, and then try to move beyond that. [00:07:07] Michael Leibovich: You know, there's something about allowing your, your kid to know you see them or hear them. but like, that's just like an example that happened this morning where I'm like, mother, just eat the strawberries. Eat the strawberries. [00:07:19] Adam Fishman: It probably yesterday. She loved the strawberries in the [00:07:22] Michael Leibovich: She did Adam, she did. She ate him yesterday. I don't know what was, I don't know what happened today. [00:07:27] Adam Fishman: Awesome. Every day a new adventure. [00:07:29] Adam Fishman: so another aspect of your life that probably requires a lot of patience, uh, this is the theme for the beginning of this episode in [00:07:36] Michael Leibovich: Yeah. [00:07:36] Adam Fishman: figured it out, you're navigating life not only with a toddler, two and a half year old, but also with a set of aging parents. And this is a thing that, you know, you are a similarly aged person to me. this is a thing that a lot of us have to deal with now is like we're raising a kid and then we're kind of also parenting our parents, in a way. What has that experience been like? watching your parents get older and like. How have you had to change kind of that dynamic with them? [00:08:08] Michael Leibovich: my parents are in their eighties. we're obviously starting our family. I'm in my forties. My parents were in their forties when they had me, so there's a bit of that same cycle. [00:08:17] Michael Leibovich: and right around the time our daughter was born, they, you know, had been living independently, but they just started falling, you know, kind of once a month there was like a spill and a fall. And then, my dad, you know, just fell in the driveway, picking up the newspaper, broke his elbow, and was, you know, basically outta commission for three months. [00:08:36] Michael Leibovich: That has started to happen. Then also I think, I grew up in, you know, a very kind of classic like blue collar home, and my parents also didn't really have much of a plan for like, what happens as this starts to, you know, happen. And so To be kind of in that middle ground and sort of going, okay, well what's, what's next? [00:08:56] Michael Leibovich: Like, what's the kind of help that you need? Like, and coming up with a plan with them is sort of weird, where the child becomes the parent. you know, we over the last year ended up kind of getting them more open to the idea of transitioning into like independent living where they have kind of more phased help. [00:09:13] Michael Leibovich: get their home on the market, move into a, uh, independent living community about two months ago. and so there's sort of that where, you know, there's a part of me that, you know, wishes I could be closer and kind of more available to help them. but then there's also just the reality that, you know, raising a toddler is not easy. [00:09:32] Michael Leibovich: Most of us hope to be able to rely on our family to some degree, they're just not in a physical place where they can do that. And that, is its own kind of side of the story. That kind of, let's kind of do what we can and make sure that like our daughter and her grandparents can like, have quality time together for whatever that looks like. [00:09:53] Michael Leibovich: Um, but it's a lot, you know, I, I think, sort of juggling kind of both sides is like a lot more exhausting. There's just a lot, a lot of decisions to do and a lot of facilitating, you know, on top of just normal life and full-time job and all that, you know? [00:10:10] Adam Fishman: you're kind of stuck in the middle of these barbells of people who need you on either end, [00:10:14] Adam Fishman: 80 years apart. [00:10:16] Adam Fishman: Um, and you've gotta hold down a job and thrive in that [00:10:21] Adam Fishman: job and, you [00:10:22] Adam Fishman: know, have a, the energy for your two and a half year old and, and things like that. [00:10:25] Adam Fishman: So, yeah, definitely a, challenging time. I'm also certain that this is a thing that a lot of people are wrestling with, so [00:10:32] Adam Fishman: probably very, helpful for people to hear that they're not alone in this. This [00:10:36] Adam Fishman: challenge. [00:10:37] Michael Leibovich: Yeah. I mean, just things, I mean, simple things, honestly, like realizing my parents didn't really have like. Will or a trust setup, you know, and like going and helping them do that and then realizing like, oh, we should be doing that. You know, there's sort of been a, a benefit to, to us to realize like, I wanna do the things that my parents weren't able for whatever reason to do. [00:10:58] Michael Leibovich: And so learning how to help them is also like getting things jumpstarted for us too. And so, I count that as a win. [00:11:05] Adam Fishman: Yeah. You're like 40 years ahead of the game now from your, [00:11:08] Michael Leibovich: Exactly. [00:11:09] Adam Fishman: parents. So, so you work at Adobe, uh, as a GM and a head of growth for a couple of pretty big product lines. you've also been at Vimeo. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume that creativity is kind of important to you. and we'll get in a little bit more to your. First career before that, that's coming up. I'm curious how you think about nurturing creativity and curiosity in your two and a half year old daughter. [00:11:36] Michael Leibovich: I think my like, kind of first language of creativity is music and maybe we can talk a little bit about that. you know, growing up though, like, my dad worked three jobs. Um, my mom was also a working parent and even though they were all always kind of busy keeping things going, like there was always space to be creative and curious. [00:11:57] Michael Leibovich: and what that has resulted, I think. For me, and, and maybe it's a bit of like confirmation bias, you know, but like,being more curious, nurturing, creativity has like, helped me think through problem solving from different angles. I think it is like nurtured more sort of empathy, you know, especially in like building product, um, how important that is. [00:12:20] Michael Leibovich: So there's a lot of like, you know, frankly like commercial benefits, but just the, like, fun of it, like getting to create your own world, whatever that looks like. So, you know, for us, we have a lot of instruments like around the house, you know, we have, a regular piano in the living room. [00:12:35] Michael Leibovich: I have a keyboard and, and you know, guitars and, a lot of instruments. So we do sort of a lot of open, like music time, she's two, so it's really just like her slamming her hands on things and, and like making unfortunate noise that is, trying to sound like music, but it's like just nurturing that, [00:12:54] Michael Leibovich: part of our routine is like carving out that time of just like, great, here's gonna be our creativity time. let her explore things like tactile things. And she's, already like, seems to be fairly like musically inclined and, you know, kind of singing babble, you know. [00:13:10] Michael Leibovich: but yeah, it's really important. I feel so lucky to sort of find, to be at the intersection of sort of working in, in tech, but sort of on behalf or for like creative communities. you know, it's something important to me. And, it's something that we, we try to pass on too. [00:13:25] Michael Leibovich: So my wife's also musical and so, you know, it's like maybe one day we have a family band, you know. [00:13:30] Adam Fishman: I love that. Uh, so I have a couple follow-ups for you on this [00:13:33] Michael Leibovich: Yeah, [00:13:33] Adam Fishman: the first one is. Have you bought your daughter a ukulele yet? Because it's a very good sized instrument for tiny hands. [00:13:42] Adam Fishman: And then the second one is, is she more drawn to the keys or the strings or like just still beating things? [00:13:49] Adam Fishman: Maybe more [00:13:50] Michael Leibovich: she does love the ukulele. [00:13:52] Michael Leibovich: Um, so that's been great. In terms of her gravitating, she's actually gravitated most towards the drums, which is interesting, like has a good sense of rhythm. Maybe that's because she's at the, like banging my fist phase, you know? [00:14:06] Adam Fishman: Yeah. [00:14:07] Michael Leibovich: so it'll be interesting to see like, you know, as she gets a little bit older, I mean, the thing I'm trying to at least like help her now is sort of the idea of like one finger on one piano key, you know, and just sort of like, just try that but also like at this age, even learning dynamics. [00:14:22] Michael Leibovich: So it's sort of like, what does loud sound like? What does soft sound like? You know, some of that is like even more simple to kind of comprehend for her then notes or, you know, anything like that. [00:14:33] Adam Fishman: Oh, that's very cool. I didn't even think about that. Like, here's how to make a loud sound. Here's how [00:14:37] Adam Fishman: to make a not loud sound. Let's [00:14:39] Adam Fishman: focus more on the not loud [00:14:40] Adam Fishman: sounds. does your daughter go to preschool? [00:14:43] Michael Leibovich: She does. Yeah. [00:14:44] Adam Fishman: So, another creative thing, what do you do with the torrent of, and I'm putting these in air quotes, artwork [00:14:53] Adam Fishman: that comes home with her from preschool. [00:14:58] Adam Fishman: Well, maybe [00:14:58] Adam Fishman: for folks who who don't have preschool age kids or have forgotten what this like, Maybe you could tell people why I'm putting artwork in air. Air quotes, like what, what [00:15:06] Adam Fishman: comes home from preschool? [00:15:08] Michael Leibovich: so she has a little cubby that they put, like, you know, her empty lunchbox at the end of the day. And every single day in that cubby, we're pulling things out and there's some, you know, piece of paper that has a scribble on it our daughter's name is Lenny and sh and they're like, Lenny drew this for you today. [00:15:23] Michael Leibovich: And I'm like, it's mostly just scribble otherwise, yeah, it's a lot. I mean, literally every day, uh, every day we come home with something new. [00:15:31] Adam Fishman: Yeah. [00:15:32] Adam Fishman: Are you, taking pictures of it and storing it, uh, you know, in the archives for all of perpetuity? Are you kind of like, oh, that's a nice scribble into the recycling bin. It goes. [00:15:42] Michael Leibovich: if I'm being totally honest, which why wouldn't I be like, most of it goes right into the recycling bin. every now and then there's like something that I'm like, oh, this is fun. And I kind of had this idea of scanning all of these early images and then using, like, Adobe has an app called Adobe Fresco where you can like scan it, vectorize it, and then I'm thinking, you know, maybe by the time she's five or six and like, experimenting more with digital art, she'll have some interest. [00:16:07] Michael Leibovich: Maybe she won't. 'cause 90% of the things my parents saved for me, I'm like, why did you keep this, you know, this was for you, not for me. But, um, [00:16:16] Michael Leibovich: there's like a good like 10% of drawings that we're holding onto, but the rest of it, and you feel bad 'cause you're just like. They're sending it home. [00:16:25] Michael Leibovich: Like, am I a shitty parent for sort of just like throwing this in the trash, but like it accumulates. [00:16:31] Adam Fishman: let's just go out there right now and tell everyone 10% is about enough, I think. [00:16:37] Adam Fishman: Good rule of [00:16:38] Michael Leibovich: Totally, [00:16:38] Adam Fishman: let's come back to music for for a second. I hinted at this tech's kind of a second career for you. and your first career was as a touring musician. tell me about that. I think that's fascinating. [00:16:50] Michael Leibovich: so I went to college, uh, at Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo area. Met some guys and we sort of started a band in college and you know, this was like early two thousands. So, The early, you know, Napster era, Limewire, sort of all those torrent sites were starting to take off. [00:17:09] Michael Leibovich: And obviously on the industry side, the music industry was like completely being disrupted, but as like, just some random guys. And on the central coast in California, it became like this incredible sort of distribution engine. And so we just started putting our music online and building organic fans in, you know, Kentucky and Missouri and New York and Alabama and, kind of all across the country. [00:17:34] Michael Leibovich: enough so that we were like, let's just book a tour and kind of go to these places where we've started to see, people listening and picking up our music. there was like an indie record label at the time that sort of had got wind of that. We had signed a, a deal to an indie record label. [00:17:51] Michael Leibovich: and we kind of kept doing that. the great silliest story of all was like, you know, back in the day, college libraries, you know, had all these computers and, you know, you didn't need an independent login or whatever. And we had, there was a music site at the time called, uh, pure Volume. [00:18:05] Michael Leibovich: We had our music on there and we figured out that like the top 10 charts reset, at midnight eastern. 9:00 PM on our side. And we would flood the library, all of us and just play our songs. We'd, get on like 50 different computers. We'd get on the top 10 charts and then it would kind of organically spiral from there. [00:18:25] Michael Leibovich: And like, that was like a big way of us sort of initially kind of hacking. And, you know, you kind of see at least where I've gone in my career. Like there, there's some combination of that, right? Of just trying to kind of find some kind of wedge. So we kind of built, a decent sized fan base. [00:18:40] Michael Leibovich: We ended up signing, uh, at the time to MySpace Records, which was. a subsidiary of Interscope Records, and this was 2005, 2006 when MySpace was the second most popular website. and so we ended up touring all around the world until probably 2009 or so. and went out on the road with like, just some funny like nineties bands like Hanson and the Gin Blossoms and, Jimmy Eat World and, you know, some of these groups. [00:19:09] Michael Leibovich: And I mean, it was a total blast. you know, it's like when I look back, I, I feel like I got to live you know, what you hope to live in retirement of just like traveling. And even though we were, you know, eating like ramen and sleeping on random people's floors throughout, you know, it was like, I gotta see places I never imagined. [00:19:26] Michael Leibovich: And, you know, playing, in a stadium in Japan to like 13,000 people. Like, just some wild experiences. And then, um, at the like crash of oh 8, 0 9, you know, everything started to unwind and we were like, uh, you know, starting to get into our later twenties and going like, do we wanna keep doing this as a grind? [00:19:46] Michael Leibovich: You know? And so that was sort of like the transition out of it, of just realizing like, you know, as an artist it's like really hard to earn a living, kind of wrapped that phase up or whatever before I made my, my way into tech. But, um, you know, it's just, uh, an incredible experience. [00:20:01] Michael Leibovich: I had hair then, Adam. I mean, you wouldn't even believe the beautiful, curly locks of hair I had on my head then. [00:20:10] Adam Fishman: Oh, that's funny. [00:20:12] Adam Fishman: maybe the third person I know who like spent a significant amount of time as a performing touring musician before they went to, into this second career of tech. I guess something about tech just kind of attracts, like, creative, also the grind of [00:20:27] Michael Leibovich: Yes. [00:20:28] Adam Fishman: and touring, like kind of really [00:20:29] Adam Fishman: prepares you for, gosh, I don't know, being an entrepreneur, building your own company in [00:20:33] Adam Fishman: some ways. [00:20:34] Adam Fishman: So, yeah. Cool. What a, what a story. [00:20:36] Adam Fishman: okay. So back to parenting. Um, you and your wife, I am told, do not search online for parenting advice, which I think is awesome. Uh, but you do something, that's kind of unique instead, and I was hoping you could tell. My listeners about what it is that you do instead of random Google searches for info. [00:20:58] Michael Leibovich: even before we had our daughter, we were like, there's no shortage of advice and like I think the hardest thing as a new parent is like, you're overwhelmed with decisions that feel so, like the gravity of every decision feels, you know, so heavy. it's like everything from do I do regular diapers? [00:21:18] Michael Leibovich: Do I do these reusable diapers? Like every single question and there are 10 opinions if you want to go find them. And so we were like, you know, instead of you. Sort of getting overwhelmed and, and trying to navigate like the hundreds of micro decisions we're gonna have to make. [00:21:33] Michael Leibovich: let's just reach out to other parents that we've seen or gotten to know, from the outside looking in, sort of kind of go, okay, these are the kind of parents we wanna be more like, or, or these are the kids they have that we want, would love ours to turn out more. [00:21:48] Michael Leibovich: Like. and so we started like a group text thread basically. And so it's like a text thread of parents. that was initially started for like our benefit, but now it's sort of like everybody's kind of sharing and, anytime something happens that we don't really know what to do about, we just kind of reach out to that thread. [00:22:06] Michael Leibovich: And what's great is it's not like a homogenous group. Like we have a few parents on there that, kind of follow the attachment parenting kind of style, others that don't, you know. So it's, it's also sort of nice to get, even if it's three or four differing opinions, but from 10 people, you know, or respect or admire, like, it's just made such a difference. [00:22:27] Michael Leibovich: It's made our lives so much easier to, to navigate kind of all, all of these questions, you know, that you really don't know the answer to. [00:22:35] Adam Fishman: Yeah. How did you introduce. concept of this group, did you just reach out to all these folks and say like, Hey, we want to create a parent advisory board? [00:22:45] Michael Leibovich: Basically. Yeah. And, and people were like, oh, that's a cool idea. Yeah. It was like, unlike maybe another advisory board, there was no like ask for a commitment of time and you guaranteed a respond, you know, x number of times a week. but just sort of more casual and frankly just more vulnerable, you know? [00:23:01] Michael Leibovich: I think what we said was like, Hey, this, whole world is new to us. It feels overwhelming. for our benefit, we're hoping to like, make it less overwhelming by not spending hours searching the internet. And so, like we'd love, you know, if we could start a group thread and it was kind of that organically. [00:23:19] Adam Fishman: there's a few themes wrapped up in that too, which is, you know, some of the ones that I'm, I'm hearing are you mentioned, that all of these folks had kind of parenting outcomes that you or liked. You're like, oh, I like how that kid is turned out so far. and that's an interesting thing too, because, parenting is one of the longest running experiments that you can have. You don't actually know what's gonna [00:23:44] Adam Fishman: happen. So to be able to look at somebody else and be like, uh, their kid ended up okay. I, I kinda like their vibe. [00:23:50] Adam Fishman: that was sort of one theme. And then the other one that you mentioned was, um, you know, the diversity of parenting styles. [00:23:57] Adam Fishman: And so here you have a group of folks who have all parented in slightly different ways, [00:24:04] Adam Fishman: and yet all of their kids, at least by your, you know, evaluation have turned out pretty good. [00:24:10] Adam Fishman: it's also really interesting that, you know, and gets to a point that's like kind of a theme of this show, which is that like, things work differently for different people. [00:24:19] Adam Fishman: And [00:24:19] Adam Fishman: so there's maybe no right or wrong style necessarily. There's just the one that you like the best, you're the most comfortable with. And Most of the time that kid's gonna turn out. Okay. [00:24:30] Adam Fishman: what kind of questions have you asked that group text or like, what's the one that you kind of remember the [00:24:37] Michael Leibovich: Oh my God. Yeah. So when our daughter was like, six months old, she went without pooping for like nine days straight. And this is the most terrifying thing in the world. Like everything feels so fragile, you know, so I'm just like, how? I don't, she's, she's drinking milk. [00:24:52] Michael Leibovich: Like, I don't understand. Where is it going? Like, how are you not pooping for nine days straight? [00:24:56] Adam Fishman: body? Where's she [00:24:57] Michael Leibovich: I know. E exactly. And so like by day like. Two or day three we're like, is this weird? You know, like, this is a classic question of like, should we be worried? what should we do? [00:25:09] Michael Leibovich: You know? And, and like quickly got feedback from people where they're like, this isn't abnormal. You know, someone was like, oh, you know, our kid went like, you know, two weeks. And I'm like, oh my God. You know? And most of them were like, if it goes on to like, you know, day seven or whatever, like call your pediatrician. [00:25:25] Michael Leibovich: but if, if there doesn't seem to be any other symptom, it's like literally like WebMD would, you know, group chat, and that was so helpful. 'cause I'm just like, you know, if you search for that, it's like you're gonna find any answer you're looking for, and all the ones you hope not to. [00:25:42] Michael Leibovich: And so, the types of people that we invite to that and the types of parents we want to be are like, not. Full of fear and anxiety. Like that's mostly the outcome of just like, yeah, this is hard work and it's like navigating newness in a lot of different ways, but I don't wanna live in fear about things. [00:26:00] Michael Leibovich: And so, you know, that was also kind of the like, big reason for us was just like, let's talk to people who are gonna tell us things will be fine, but also kind of guide us, you know? And I think the other big thing that, is helpful about this group chat for us is, it's not just about sort of what decision you made for me, it's like, how did you come to that? [00:26:22] Michael Leibovich: You know, like that's, that's always like, I think where I am most interested to dig in. And so it's like, for instance, friends that, you know, kind of go the reusable diaper route, it's like, how did you come to it? And then you kind of learn like, okay, these are the values that sort of we're behind that. [00:26:37] Michael Leibovich: Or like, here we're personal experiences and you kind of realize like, okay. that's also helpful. It's not just like, do this, don't do this. 'cause a lot, most of it is, I mean, probably all of it is not binary, you know? And so like getting to understand like people's thought processes is also just, I'm kind of nerdy and always interested in that anyway, you know, but that's been another benefit. [00:26:58] Adam Fishman: people have talked about having like a. A bit, a little bit of a parental advisory board on this show, but the [00:27:03] Michael Leibovich: Yep. [00:27:03] Adam Fishman: I've heard about the concept of having like a tight group text with people that you respect and you know, have, context with. [00:27:10] Adam Fishman: And so what a cool idea. So [00:27:12] Michael Leibovich: Yeah. [00:27:12] Adam Fishman: to you and kudos to you and your wife for that. [00:27:15] Adam Fishman: okay, so, something that maybe happened before you had this text, uh, group set up. you have a really wild story from the birth of your, your daughter, and I wonder if you could tell that on this show. And this is not you know, give people fear and anxiety, but I think it's to set the stage that, parenting is kind of a curve ball of a journey from the minute that baby comes into the world. [00:27:46] Adam Fishman: tell me about that story. [00:27:47] Michael Leibovich: maybe to kick that off, so we went through IVF, the process for us of, of getting pregnant was already a journey. my wife had a really smooth sort of pregnancy. she probably would not agree with me on the first trimester part, but from my perspective, like everything was safe and healthy along the way. [00:28:05] Michael Leibovich: she went into labor relatively quickly, maybe two and a half, three hours into active labor, her OB came in and just sort of said, you know, I don't think the baby is gonna be able to get out through the birth canal, and so I think we're gonna need to do an emergency c-section. [00:28:23] Michael Leibovich: you know, we hadn't really talked in advance about, you know, sort of, I guess all of the possible ways for her to deliver and sort of what her preferences were or otherwise. but we're like. Okay. Like, you know, my wife was like, let's do it. and so like from the moment we said let's do it, like everything was a bit of a blur. [00:28:43] Michael Leibovich: Like they kinda race us into, this other operating room. They kind of put a sheet basically in between like my wife's neck and the rest of her body. I am over by her head. all of this is, you know, kind of happening. I'm like, you know, there's probably 15 different people in the room. [00:29:01] Michael Leibovich: I just start hearing like these beeps and alarms going off And then I hear like, somebody call over like, we have a code. Noel. Like, didn't know what that meant. I'm just kind of going, what is happening? they pull our daughter out. [00:29:13] Michael Leibovich: Um, and they're like, here she is. And I'm just like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. They kind of put her under, like the heat lamp. They're starting to clean her off. I just sort of can sense this frantic energy, right? at some point in this process, my wife's ob like leans over this curtain and goes, do you guys wanna have more kids? [00:29:31] Michael Leibovich: And we're like, what? Like, what are you talking about? so then she goes on to explain like, your uterus is hemorrhaging. It's basically not, um, contracting the way it's supposed to. You're losing a lot of blood. We're like trying, we're doing an infusion right now. I'm trying to decide if we're gonna do a hysterectomy in this like moment [00:29:51] Michael Leibovich: I don't know any of this. My wife is like fully drugged up by this point. [00:29:55] Michael Leibovich: it didn't feel to me at the time, the doctor said, like, wow, like you were so kinda like, calm and like focused in the moment. This was her feedback to me. [00:30:03] Michael Leibovich: I, I think I was just like scared and stunned. I was like, yeah, we, I mean, I think we'd love to have more kids like, but what, like, gimme the odds, like what are we dealing with? You know? And she was like, well, we're gonna, we're going to try to do an embolization, but if that is unsuccessful, like we may need to remove for uterus. [00:30:20] Michael Leibovich: And I'm just like, oh my gosh. You know? Meanwhile. [00:30:24] Michael Leibovich: to my right is like this tiny human that like, looks like Benjamin Mutton. I don't know why they come out looking like they're a hundred years old, but like, [00:30:32] Michael Leibovich: basically they go, okay, we need to, we need to race your wife down to radiology. We're gonna operate on her for like the next three to four hours, and see what we can do. Meanwhile, we're gonna take you and your daughter into another room [00:30:47] Michael Leibovich: they're like. Kind of looking at me and they go, um, she's going to need to eat soon. Like, do you guys wanna do breast milk or formula? [00:30:55] Michael Leibovich: I don't know. Like, I literally had never thought about that. You know, we had never talked about what, you know, I'm just like, well, what do we need to do to keep her alive like that? I think that's what I said, you know, and they were like, well, you know, formula's gonna be fine. It's like, you know, if you guys wanna breastfeed, it's, you know, giving her formula, you know, to start is not gonna be a big deal. [00:31:14] Michael Leibovich: what struck me was I was just in this like, total personal panic, wondering like, is my wife gonna come out of this at all? She had lost three fifths of her blood in like seven minutes. [00:31:27] Michael Leibovich: I had no communication for, with her for a couple hours. The, the nurse that was in the room with us [00:31:33] Michael Leibovich: she just didn't seem phased. I mean, like, and I'm sure that seeing this type of stuff, like if I were to ask her later, you know, they're like, well, there's like three of you, you know, every week that we deal with. It's not a, you know, but like for me, I was just like, what do I do? [00:31:46] Michael Leibovich: And she's like, well, you can hold your daughter if you want. It's your daughter. Like, what do you wanna do? And I'm just like, I don't know, like, this is so terrifying. [00:31:55] Michael Leibovich: it was a really surreal thing 'cause she, the nurse sort of walked out of the room and I hadn't had any alone time for I don't know how many days leading up to that at all. [00:32:04] Michael Leibovich: And all of a sudden it was just so quiet. Like it was just me, this seven pound child that is like, you know, happy and healthy coming out. everything about it just sort of felt so like. Fragile. [00:32:18] Michael Leibovich: they were able to successfully do an embolization, not a hysterectomy. my wife got to meet her about three hours, you know, after she was born. And everything from then on was, you know, so beautiful. But it was like a really terrifying sort of first three hours of our, our daughter's life. [00:32:36] Michael Leibovich: and to kind of be thrust into doing it solo, you know, I think that was the, the thing of, I've always felt like between my wife and I, like, we can solve any problem. But when it was just me, I was like, I don't know, like, if I could do this, just my head went in all different directions. [00:32:55] Michael Leibovich: that's quite a way to welcome a new kid into the world and. To become a parent, you know? [00:33:02] Adam Fishman: has that changed anything for you, or caused you, to do anything differently following that experience? [00:33:09] Michael Leibovich: I think in general, having, our daughter has made me so much more like just mindful of the moments and the seconds and, I'm so much more present, you know, like, than I think I was before we had her, not just present with her, but present with my wife. it always somewhat feels cliche, but just. [00:33:28] Michael Leibovich: Kind of like confronting mortality period, you know, you know the, and whenever it sort of becomes real or a personal story, I, I think it's hard for it not to have some kind of transformative impact, also, in general, it's like these kinds of stories we share 'em with others, not to scare people, you know, but to also just realize like, you know, we didn't have a plan like that wasn't on our Bingo card. [00:33:54] Michael Leibovich: and so we had to sort of, in that moment, especially being kind of in the midst of a hospital, sort of trust the experts to guide us too. So there's a part of me that, you know, was like, I can't control what's happening right now. I think there's so many other stories of sort of realizing so much more is outta my control than I want to admit on any day to day basis. [00:34:16] Michael Leibovich: So I think that's like probably a. The biggest maybe like change from sort of me pre-child to me post is like just being a little bit more honest and recognizing how little I have control. and also being more present, [00:34:32] Adam Fishman: what a profound experience, would you tell folks know, who are about to go into childbirth? Would you say to them, Hey, you might wanna, I. Have a little bit of a plan or consider a few different potential things that can happen. It's obviously impossible to plan for the entire range of outcomes, but is that advice that you'd, you'd give folks like, Hey, have a, have a few thoughts about some different alternatives here? [00:34:58] Michael Leibovich: yeah. I mean, some close friends right, have, have sort of opted and chosen sort of at home births, you know, some of them have like gone as planned. Some of them ended up at the hospital, frankly, you know. so if anything, I think the advice that I give is like, it's fine to have a plan, but like, at least entertain what might we do if, you know, and, and some people are just like, well, if I, if I entertain that, then I'm manifesting it, you know, and it's like, well, you know, maybe. [00:35:30] Michael Leibovich: but also, just like things can go sideways and it's at least helpful to entertain the possibilities so that, you at least kind of know what you might decide in those moments. And, and hopefully those moments don't come for you, but, you know, it's sort of helpful to, at least I. [00:35:49] Michael Leibovich: Kind of like walk through the what ifs, at least, you know, in hindsight, there were so many of those, what ifs, whether it was, you know, breast milk versus, formula, you know, or, or otherwise that, you know, we just hadn't even really talked about or thought through, [00:36:03] Adam Fishman: yeah. So, you know, have a bit of a plan, but remain flexible [00:36:08] Adam Fishman: it's like, what's that? What the Mike Tyson quote? You know, it's like everyone has a plan until they're punched in the face. It's kinda like exactly that. [00:36:15] Adam Fishman: Yep. And I suppose childbirth is about as much of a bunch of the faces as you can, [00:36:20] Michael Leibovich: Amen. [00:36:21] Adam Fishman: okay. So you have a couple of frameworks that you told me about that I was hoping we could talk about here. the first one is, kind of helping your daughter through some, some moments, some tough moments that you might be having and, and you called it Change the channel. So tell me about Change the Channel. [00:36:37] Michael Leibovich: so change the channel. I mean, in some ways it's like classic misdirection, you know, like, I think probably all toddlers, like, she can get fixated on something, you know, sometimes she's just in an emotion, changing the channel we is just like the shorthand for us of like, Try to get her onto a different like wave, you know? And so I think the classic times are like, you know, when she's like, I don't wanna take a bath, and she's having a meltdown, and it's like, okay, what can we do? [00:37:06] Michael Leibovich: there's no reasoning in explaining like, well, you know, actually you're getting a lot of oil built up in your hair and it's time to clean. and so, you know, it's like, for me, an example of change, the channel is like, asking her a question. [00:37:19] Michael Leibovich: Usually that sort of works. Like, do you want bubbles in the bath? And then she's like, yeah, I want bubbles in the bath. and so it's just like asking, usually they're, they are in the form of a, you know, asking a question that just kind of gets her to stop and like, reframe and. [00:37:35] Michael Leibovich: and It's usually like fairly quick to like, almost go from like meltdown to like, everything's sunny in Philadelphia. just like, how is this, if I'm honest as a dad, I compartmentalize things, right? [00:37:48] Michael Leibovich: So I'm changing the channel for myself. so that somewhat comes natural to me is like, oh, distract her and like, get her to change the channel. I think what's actually harder for me, but I'm trying to do it more, is actually like, sometimes just meet her where she's at. [00:38:02] Michael Leibovich: Like, I can see that you're frustrated. Like, do you know why you don't wanna take a bath? You know, and like get her to maybe kind of think or talk through it, you know? [00:38:13] Michael Leibovich: and so some of that stuff is not, you know, easy or like, first nature for me to do. But like, trying to also know in the moment, like, do I just need to flip a switch for her? [00:38:26] Michael Leibovich: Or do I need to like, take a moment, have her feel seen, and then maybe she can like, move on from there, [00:38:34] Adam Fishman: Oh, I love that. And is that, is that change the channel something like, do you and your wife use that as like code [00:38:38] Michael Leibovich: Yes, [00:38:39] Adam Fishman: need to change the channel here. [00:38:40] Michael Leibovich: exactly. [00:38:41] Michael Leibovich: the second, uh, framework that you have, and this, this one's been talked about a bit on this show, but I'm curious how this manifests for you is, the importance of routine. So there is ample amounts of studies that say the kids thrive on routine. and I've heard a lot of dads talk about that structure that they have in, in the day-to-day. how does routine manifest in your household? Mm-hmm. [00:39:03] Michael Leibovich: so routine is less about time and more about sequencing, I think is maybe the, the way I would describe it. So, you know, what we usually do is like, when she comes home we'll usually have like playtime and then dinner time, and then bath, and then books, and then milk, and then sing a song and bed, you know, so like there's a sequence because as she gets older, her nap times like fluctuate, but like kind of keeping that sequence and you know, another part of it is like. [00:39:39] Michael Leibovich: I ask her if she knows what's coming next, you know? I mean, some of this is just like, you know, for me there's like personal routines that like, I've always kind of kept that have kind of helped me either like get into a flow state or help with the transition. it's about, like a sequence of things. [00:39:56] Michael Leibovich: and what's funny is like at this point, she'll pick up if something's outta sequence, like, honestly, I don't actually know if it's a ultimately a good thing or if I'm just gonna, like, if I'm just nurturing a neurotic child, like, you know what I mean? Because the other night she was like, no, you said three books. [00:40:13] Michael Leibovich: We've only done two. And I'm just like, okay, we, we'll do three books. You know, like, and she gets used to it. so all I can maybe speak to then are like the results, like from a very early age. She slept through the night. very consistent sleeper, which I think is like every parent's like hope and, you know, or nightmare if they're dealing with, with that. [00:40:32] Michael Leibovich: I don't know if there's causation or correlation, but I'm at least like going, okay, we do these things and it seems to work, so let's keep doing them. [00:40:41] Adam Fishman: I like that it's more about just the sequencing of things and the things themselves versus like, we must do this at this time. [00:40:49] Adam Fishman: it's just, again, it creates some predictability, but it's not. Rigid. Like if it's 6 0 5, we need to be, you know, doing this, this thing. [00:40:57] Michael Leibovich: Yeah. Well, I mean, it's funny, right? 'cause even just like this morning she woke up, she usually will sleep till, I dunno, 6 45 or seven, you know, today she was up at like six. and again, my wife's outta town, so I was like, oh, you're up, you're up early today. And she goes, what's early? [00:41:12] Adam Fishman: that's amazing. [00:41:16] Michael Leibovich: know. And I was like, yeah, fair enough. She doesn't have a concept of time yet, [00:41:20] Adam Fishman: Um, okay, so, in that, three book routine, uh, what is your favorite book to read to your daughter? [00:41:27] Michael Leibovich: my favorite book is The Giving Tree. [00:41:30] Adam Fishman: [00:41:30] Michael Leibovich: It breaks my heart too. 'cause it's just like, you know, it's, the tree just gives everything, it's just such a sweet, simple story. I think it totally is like what being a parent's all about, like you'll give it all away, you know, to like help your child out. [00:41:46] Michael Leibovich: and it's also like somewhat connected to nature, you know, so like we go, we go on walks together and she saw tree stump the other day and she goes, look the giving tree, you know, and she like wanted to sit on the tree stump and it was just like, so cute. you know, I feel like there are a lot of books we enjoy reading, but I think that personally I feel most connected to is like the story of being a parent, you know? [00:42:09] Adam Fishman: Yeah. It's also one that's like, you know, there are plenty of books that kids like that are just. over it as a parent. You don't wanna read that book again, but I could [00:42:19] Adam Fishman: probably read the Giving Tree a thousand times and be [00:42:21] Adam Fishman: fine. It's such a [00:42:22] Adam Fishman: great story. okay. How has becoming a dad changed your approach to leading teams? [00:42:30] Michael Leibovich: I think in a lot of ways it's made me more zen like when your morning starts getting thrown up on, the rest of the day's, challenges are like far easier to approach. Like, especially with a beard, like getting thrown up on a shirt, Adam is like, one thing, you just take it off. Getting thrown up like in your beard is like, I gotta do like two, three rounds of shampoo to like get that smell out. [00:43:00] Michael Leibovich: and so there's just something about like that kind of makes every like. Sort of like panic and you know, especially like working in any kind of like leadership role or especially in the world of growth, like, there's fire drills, you know, at any moment sort of like calling your attention. [00:43:17] Michael Leibovich: And so, to me it's like helped me sort of somewhat kind of like stay a little bit more levelheaded, having that like juxtaposition, especially on, on mornings like that, you know? [00:43:29] Adam Fishman: partnership's obviously very important, um, when you have kids, important at work, important at home. but, you can never perfectly agree with your, with your significant other on, on everything. So, uh, what's an area that you and your wife don't, a hundred percent agree on when it comes to parenting? [00:43:46] Michael Leibovich: I would say like the approach of like moderation versus abstinence. Like there are things that we kind of are both aligned on where we're like, as long as we can, we wanna not introduce her to tv, you know, as an example. As long as we can, we wanna not really be on our phones around her. [00:44:05] Michael Leibovich: we're sort of aligned at the value level, but I'm maybe a little bit more. Open and interested and, you know, maybe she's still too early, but like, not no exposure, 'cause like I had some of that growing up and then you just like literally get outta the house and you're just like, oh my God, finally, you know? [00:44:23] Michael Leibovich: so, you know, I feel like learning kind of self-control and moderation, as part of just becoming more independent, you know, and like developing agency and sort of your ability to kind of know when something's not great for yourself, whether it's sugar or alcohol or anything. And kind of like go, okay, like how do I self moderate? [00:44:45] Michael Leibovich: you know, there's just times like that where if I'm getting real here, I think there was one morning when we'd both agreed like, let's limit to no tv. And I had like, put on, I was like, Sesame Street will be okay. Like, it's five minutes. [00:44:57] Michael Leibovich: Like I was trying to get something else done, we uh, had kind of a big debate over that, you know, and my wife kind of felt like I was kind of violating our values. and it was a big discussion of like, you know, moderation versus abstinence. And also I think getting to the root of it, is it TV itself that's bad or is it sort of using it to be a co-parent when things are too hard? [00:45:23] Michael Leibovich: You know? I think, you know, there are examples like that that I think have helped us get even more kind of on the same page, I guess, of what are the values that we. hold and or want her exposed to, and then what's the right way I think to like, go through that process, [00:45:42] Michael Leibovich: so I think I tend to err on like, you know, a little bit's. Okay. because, you know, it's easy to kind of, again, make rules and then, if you're like all or nothing, when that nothing happens, you know, it's like kind of, it's hard to like then recalibrate, you know? [00:45:59] Michael Leibovich: so I think that's probably the most where we've had disagreements. [00:46:03] Adam Fishman: have the two of you talked about the relationship that you want your daughter to have with technology as she gets older. [00:46:09] Adam Fishman: I mean, can't even fathom what the world's gonna be like 10 years from now, you know, when [00:46:13] Michael Leibovich: Yeah. [00:46:14] Adam Fishman: of being a teenager. What's that conversation like [00:46:17] Michael Leibovich: if I were to like label myself in, in broad strokes, I'd call myself like a techno optimist, you know, and there's part of me that's just like, you know, sort of being digitally fluent is going to be really advantageous for her. [00:46:30] Michael Leibovich: but on the other hand it's sort of like how early, when, you know, I mean, I don't know if you watched, um, that Netflix series adolescence, [00:46:39] Michael Leibovich: it's heavy and it's sort of like, you know, kind of worth. Thinking about some of the like, social consequences of exposure to tech. [00:46:46] Michael Leibovich: You know, I think from, from our perspective, maybe it goes back to sort of learning moderation. You know, like the most simple way I could put it is I want her to understand its power, which has both good and bad sort of outcomes and consequences. And then maybe the question is like, you know, what's the right age, I guess, to sort of be exposed to something that is so powerful, and text broad. [00:47:10] Michael Leibovich: It's like, what's the difference between, you know, her, playing with Adobe Fresco versus being on social media and like, there's clearly like a, Big difference between that. and it's interesting, like our, our parent thread, you know, it's mixed. Like, you know, we have parents that are like, we wanna do public school, but it's like, it's all iPads from like kindergarten on I think we're still honestly kind of trying to process and think through it. [00:47:32] Michael Leibovich: and that's maybe the other thing, going back to the control issue that like, I think I'm like trying to learn is okay, we don't have to know what we wanna do five years from now. Like, like we just need to think about like, what is, what are the decisions we need to make today or this week for her? and kind of go forward. [00:47:51] Michael Leibovich: 'cause it can get really overwhelming, you know, you start planning out your kids' whole freaking life and like, okay. telling ourselves it's okay to not fully know yet, [00:47:59] Adam Fishman: I am curious for you, because you work in tech, um, and you know, Adobe is. I've done a ton with ai. [00:48:07] Adam Fishman: you've done some personal exploration to help you as a parent, so I'm curious about this cool use of AI that you have for meal times with a, with a picky eater. [00:48:17] Michael Leibovich: we introduced her to solid foods pretty early, and at first we were like, oh my gosh, this is gonna go so well. And now we're at a point where it's like mac and cheese, three outta four meals, uh, you know, and I'm just like, what? [00:48:27] Michael Leibovich: and similarly, you know, me not, coming from an engineering background, but more from sort of a, a marketing and product background. I was like, I. There are these tools, obviously lovable bolt. I'm like, you know, I just wanna learn them more, you know, sort of like get to explore more the vibe, coding landscape. [00:48:46] Michael Leibovich: And so I, just kind of was like, okay, here's a problem that I have. I'm sure there are solutions, but maybe building my own solution would be a chance to also learn, this landscape a little bit more. So I've basically been working on kind of building a, an app called Picky Eater. the problem that I kind of wanted to solve was, you know, our daughter, she goes in these waves of trying foods, liking some not, and I wanted a way to like sort of track both the things that she liked to eat and then maybe get suggestions of like, cool, if she likes this, maybe you tried this and sort of expand her palette. [00:49:25] Michael Leibovich: But like. Build off of things that she already seems naturally inclined to like, and then also sort of keep track of things that she doesn't like and like come up with some plan to like revisit them or whatever. you know, it was one of those where I'm like, there are kind of solutions obviously in programs that like kind of exist for this. [00:49:43] Michael Leibovich: so I don't think it's like solving something in a totally new way, but more just the, it's been a lot of fun to like kind of build that and build that experience, for our own use, you know? [00:49:54] Adam Fishman: Yeah. And well, and now you'll have to add special K, [00:49:58] Adam Fishman: uh, specifically with the red berries to the no column. [00:50:00] Michael Leibovich: Exactly. [00:50:02] Adam Fishman: that is a very cool, concept and also, you know, just amazing use of ai. There's probably something somewhat like this, as you mentioned out there, but like [00:50:11] Michael Leibovich: Yep. [00:50:12] Adam Fishman: the exact thing that you need. [00:50:13] Adam Fishman: And going in and exploring and building it yourself is now, now possible. So, [00:50:17] Michael Leibovich: I think that's the most amazing thing. Yeah. Is just sort of like. just sort of being able to go beyond even prototype and like actually have like a working app, you know? And obviously I'm not, I don't have plans to commercialize it, so I'm not thinking about security and storage and all, you know, like all of the things that, you see on, on x about vibe coating gone wrong. [00:50:39] Michael Leibovich: spring break, gone wild vibe coating, gone wild. but it's been a lot of fun. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun [00:50:44] Adam Fishman: what is the most interesting food suggestion that it has come up with? [00:50:48] Michael Leibovich: So she has always seemed to like sweet potatoes and so I was like, okay, here's sweet potatoes. it recommended, um. Roasted parsnip fries. [00:51:00] Adam Fishman: ah, [00:51:00] Michael Leibovich: And I don't know that I had ever eaten a parsnip in my life. and she loves them. I mean, it's been great. but it was like, I, I kind of realized like the, the build was like, you know, keep texture similar or like, you know, I think the other tip, is like involving her in the making of the process. [00:51:17] Michael Leibovich: You know, so like, let it, helping her cut things like also gets her more open-minded to trying it. 'cause it's like you cooked this, you know? [00:51:26] Adam Fishman: last, uh, question for you before our lightning round and, and that is, if you could the clock to the time right before your daughter was born, and you bump into Mike, the younger pre parent Mike, [00:51:41] Adam Fishman: What's this kind of single piece of advice that you would give your younger self, and then one thing that you'd tell yourself to do differently? [00:51:49] Michael Leibovich: just focus on the next step. 'cause it is so easy to get spun up on like the, the butterfly effect of each decision that like we make. and it's kind of funny 'cause I'm like a lot of this is the same advice I like, give to my teams. You know, when you kind of get into analysis, it's like, what's the next, like, break it into the next, you know, the smallest bit that you can just keep moving forward. [00:52:13] Michael Leibovich: Um, but for some reason as a parent, you know, it's like, do we open up a 5 29? How, you know, like, is like college even gonna be a thing? Like, do I need to think? No. The answer to that, it's just like, okay. What's the next step? It's like, we wanna put money away for her future. [00:52:30] Michael Leibovich: Like, okay, so that's just the next step. Like, just start doing that. You know, like we don't have to decide necessarily what vehicle it's going to be yet, and like whether college is gonna be a thing in 20 years. that's an example of like, just start putting money aside, you know? [00:52:45] Michael Leibovich: and so I think that is like, the advice is sort of don't think too far out. I mean, it's important to do it, but also just sort of look at like the next small step in front of you [00:52:56] Adam Fishman: Yeah. And is that sort of mirrored what you would do differently? Maybe don't overanalyze decisions or something like that? [00:53:04] Michael Leibovich: for sure. Yeah. I mean, especially early on, like where my wife and I kind of found the most tense she was like, Hey, let's introduce a phrase, don't be the expert. She was like, so I'm gonna let you dad the way you wanna dad, and I'm gonna mom the way I wanna mom, and if you wanna put her diaper on backwards, like go for it. [00:53:24] Michael Leibovich: I'm not gonna be your expert. doing that, you know, which, which I think we ended up kind of transitioning to like four or five months, you know, has made all the difference, right? Because it's like we're in this together. We each have our own, you know, little nuanced ways of doing things and like where she sits when she eats, but like. [00:53:43] Michael Leibovich: At the end of the day, my wife wants to put her in her high chair, or she wants to put her on a normal chair. Like, who cares? You know, like, and so I think that's been a good adjustment. kind of going back to the theme of just like, control, and letting go more and, um, trusting the process. [00:54:00] Adam Fishman: Cool. Okay, well if you have a few more minutes for lightning round, [00:54:04] Adam Fishman: I want to ask you before we get into that, how can people follow along or be helpful to you? [00:54:10] Michael Leibovich: so outside of my kind of day job, like I love meeting like early stage startups, founders, who are looking for go to market advice or support. I'm involved with a few different like, early stage funds as like, An advisor, so I'm always open to that. I love meeting, um, and hearing what people are building. [00:54:30] Michael Leibovich: and I'm probably like online most active, I'd say on LinkedIn. Um, you can find me there. and uh, yeah, looking forward to connecting with folks. [00:54:38] Adam Fishman: awesome. I will send people to LinkedIn to find you. okay. Lightning round. [00:54:44] Michael Leibovich: All right. [00:54:45] Adam Fishman: we go. This is always fun. Uh, what is the most indispensable parenting product that you've ever purchased? [00:54:53] Michael Leibovich: Okay. It's like the dumbest product ever. It's basically like a fidget spinner that like has a suction cup. So like we've had to fly quite a few times and there's only so much you can do. And like this little suction cup, like fidget spinner that she can just spin around has kept her entertained. I kid you not on car rides on like plane flights, like so much more than I would ever expect that it's like, especially traveling. [00:55:19] Michael Leibovich: It's so, so simple, so easy and like truly indispensable. [00:55:24] Adam Fishman: Amazing. I have heard another parent talk about this, and they use it specifically on airplanes and [00:55:31] Michael Leibovich: Yep. [00:55:31] Adam Fishman: when they have to change their kid's diaper on an [00:55:35] Michael Leibovich: Oh, yep. [00:55:36] Adam Fishman: it to the ceiling and the kid's like, [00:55:37] Michael Leibovich: So brilliant. [00:55:38] Adam Fishman: I might need to buy one of these for myself. [00:55:40] Michael Leibovich: Yeah, I know, I know. [00:55:42] Adam Fishman: okay. [00:55:43] Adam Fishman: What is the most useless parenting product you ever purchased? [00:55:46] Michael Leibovich: the nose sucker, like, the nose Frida, it just never seems to work. Like I know people swear by it, but I'm just like, we can't get it out like. And, and so it has like the most promise. 'cause the last thing I wanna do is like, manually sucks, snot outta my kids' nose. [00:56:02] Michael Leibovich: But that unfortunately has been like the most useless, product for us. [00:56:06] Adam Fishman: Okay. So we're a no on the nose, Frida. [00:56:09] Michael Leibovich: Yeah. [00:56:09] Adam Fishman: Uh, true or false? There is only one correct way to load the dishwasher. [00:56:14] Michael Leibovich: true. [00:56:15] Adam Fishman: way? Your way? [00:56:17] Michael Leibovich: yeah. My way. Yes, definitely. Yeah. to give my wife credit, she gets way more in the dishwasher than I do. Like when I go, oh, it's full. 'cause like, you know, everything's in there. She's like, oh, there's so many more things you can just shove in there. So [00:56:31] Adam Fishman: Yep. [00:56:31] Adam Fishman: everybody wins in this [00:56:33] Michael Leibovich: yep, [00:56:34] Adam Fishman: what is your signature Dad's superpower? [00:56:36] Michael Leibovich: so I don't know why I do this, but I'll just like put on a hat and become a different character for my daughter. So part of it is the like, change the channel thing where it's just like, sometimes if we just are in a funk, I'll like go, I'll grab a cowboy hat and like, you know, all of a sudden I'm Marshall Mike coming to like, you know, bring, bring her out to the pastor, you know, and, and she just loves it, you know, it's just like makeup dumb voices and like different characters. [00:57:04] Michael Leibovich: so I think, at least for now, that's probably my, my superpower. [00:57:07] Adam Fishman: Okay. I love that. what is the crazier block of time in your house? Uh, 6:00 AM to 8:00 AM or 6:00 PM To 8:00 PM [00:57:15] Michael Leibovich: Oh, pm for sure. Yeah. Like, our daughter's an angel when she wakes up, like she's just like so sweet. But like the fight to the bath, as I mentioned and just like everything, even though it's, we're going through the, the whole routine, it's just like a fight till the finish line. [00:57:32] Adam Fishman: if she had to describe you in one word, what would it be? [00:57:36] Michael Leibovich: Silly. [00:57:38] Michael Leibovich: Now. That's just the word she's been using. I'm like, I don't, I, maybe I'm silly, but she's always like, dad, silly. Okay. All right. [00:57:45] Adam Fishman: There it is. Uh, how many parenting books do you have in your house? [00:57:49] Michael Leibovich: Not that many. Uh, maybe, 10. I don't know. Is 10? Not that many. [00:57:54] Adam Fishman: That's like a average good [00:57:56] Michael Leibovich: Okay. Yeah. [00:57:57] Adam Fishman: of those parenting books have you read cover to cover? [00:58:00] Michael Leibovich: Two for sure. Only two. [00:58:02] Adam Fishman: Impressive. [00:58:03] Adam Fishman: that's a bigger answer than I usually get. So, um, how many dad jokes do you tell on average each day? [00:58:11] Michael Leibovich: far too many to keep track of. Let's just put it that way. I can keep count of the number of times my wife rolls her eyes more than I can remember the number of attempted dag jokes. [00:58:21] Adam Fishman: Yeah. That is how you know, a high quality dad joke is by how far the eyes roll back in the [00:58:26] Michael Leibovich: 100%. Yep. [00:58:27] Adam Fishman: what is your favorite kid's movie? [00:58:30] Michael Leibovich: we're still at a point where we're not watching kids movies. I'm not there yet. and I'm sure it'll happen before. I want it to. [00:58:39] Adam Fishman: Okay. Do you have a nostalgic movie [00:58:42] Michael Leibovich: I, yeah. [00:58:43] Adam Fishman: childhood or, you know, younger adult life, whatever, that you just can't wait to force your daughter to watch? [00:58:48] Michael Leibovich: Goonies. [00:58:49] Adam Fishman: Okay. Yep. [00:58:51] Michael Leibovich: Back to the future. Probably both of those are like, I cannot wait to watch those with her. [00:58:55] Adam Fishman: couple classics. [00:58:56] Adam Fishman: just a few more for you, is the worst experience that you've ever had assembling a kid's toy or a piece of furniture? [00:59:06] Michael Leibovich: so the highchair we have, it's like a Swedish brand, and I swear it's like not, it's not like Ikea, but it's just like, it was the most difficult, like the angles to try to fit some of these pieces together. and like just the sheer number of parts, it's a highchair, like how, like how are there 50 50 small parts to this thing? [00:59:29] Adam Fishman: right. [00:59:30] Michael Leibovich: Yeah. [00:59:31] Adam Fishman: Swedish highchair. Watch [00:59:32] Michael Leibovich: Yep. [00:59:33] Adam Fishman: 'em. [00:59:33] Adam Fishman: you have a fav dad hack for road trips or flights? Perhaps it is the fidget spinner. I [00:59:39] Michael Leibovich: No, I have another one, audio books. think about how many books you read. Almost all of them. You can find somebody reading them on Spotify or whatever, like audio app of your choice. So we, I just like made a playlist of like all these, you know, all of her books and it keeps her like occupied without us having to listen to like godawful children's music. [01:00:00] Michael Leibovich: it's been great. 'cause I mean, I think, you know, it's like been the easiest thing to sort of keep her mentally occupied and like, she's totally open to like, listening to these audio stories. So that's been like total, total like success for us. [01:00:14] Adam Fishman: Okay. Maybe coupled with a fidget spinner. [01:00:17] Michael Leibovich: Oh, that is like, [01:00:18] Adam Fishman: and [01:00:19] Michael Leibovich: yes. [01:00:20] Adam Fishman: heaven. [01:00:20] Michael Leibovich: great combo. [01:00:21] Adam Fishman: Last question for you. You only have one kid, but what is your take on minivans? [01:00:29] Michael Leibovich: I don't wanna hate on people who have minivans. my take on minivan's kind of my same take on like dads who wear crocs. Like if I'm being real. you might as well get either the free pair of Crocs with the minivan or the minivan with the Crocs. [01:00:41] Michael Leibovich: Um, I respect people who have minivans. I myself will not ever be an owner. [01:00:46] Adam Fishman: Okay. Alright. love that we went deep cut with the Crocs there [01:00:51] Michael Leibovich: Yeah. [01:00:52] Adam Fishman: alright Mike, it was such a pleasure having you on the show today. Thank you for joining me and, uh, best of luck to you and your wife and your, daughter who hates the dried berries in the special K. [01:01:04] Michael Leibovich: Hates the dried berries. Adam, thank you so much. This was so much fun. [01:01:07] Adam Fishman: Thank you for listening to today's conversation with Michael Leibovich. You can subscribe and watch the show on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Visit www.startupdadpod.com. To learn more and browse past episodes. Thanks for listening. See you next week.