Latest / Beautifully Complex / 271: ADHD and Dads: Creating the Fatherhood You Crave, Larry Hagner

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271: ADHD and Dads: Creating the Fatherhood You Crave, Larry Hagner · Beautifully Complex

0:03
Men need to be challenged and men need to have deeper conversations. Men need
0:08
to be authentic and vulnerable with each other. And I think a lot of
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men view that as like, oh wow, that's a very feminine emotional thing
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to do to be authentic and vulnerable with a man. That's not the case.
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In fact, the strongest and most courageous thing you'll do is to interact
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like that with a man. Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I
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share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your
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host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author and mindset mama,
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honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get
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started. Welcome back friends. This week on the podcast, I am actually
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rerunning one of the earlier episodes of the podcast, a conversation that I had
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with Larry Hagner of the Dad Edge podcast about ADHD and creating the fatherhood that
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you crave. This one is especially for the dads out there, which I
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know I don't address often enough. But I have the mother experience and so
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that's what I typically share. But Larry came on and it was a fabulous
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conversation. He talked a lot about having ADHD himself and raising a kid who
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is also neurodivergent. He also talked a lot about how he approaches parenting his
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son with ADHD and how he's able to book keep his cool and also show
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up really empathetically and how that makes a difference for them and their family.
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And he just really goes in a lot of detail about creating the fatherhood that
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you want and how to show up as a dad and show up in the
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ways that your kids need. Right, So it's not just about creating your
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vision of parenthood of fatherhood, but it's also about showing up in the ways
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that your neurodivergent kid needs. So, without further ado, here is that
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episode with Larry Hagner. I hope you enjoy it. Welcome back to the
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Parenting ADHD Podcast. I'm so excited today to be talking to Larry Hagner of
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the Dad Edge podcast and we're going to talk about his story and raising a
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child with ADHD and all about dads and how to better engage and understand what
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our kids are going through who have ADHD and better connections with family and all
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sorts of really valuable insights and information for dads. Thank you so much for
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being here, Larry. I'm so honored to have you on the podcast and
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to talk about dads today. Yeah, let's do it. Let's talk about
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dad. Absolutely. Yeah, good to be here. Thank you so much
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for coming on. You came on my show as well, and that was
3:14
fun. We had a really good time. Yes, we always have good
3:16
conversations. I'm really looking forward to it. Do you want to start just
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by introducing yourself, let everyone know who you are and what you do.
3:23
Sure. So. My name is Larry Hagner. I am the host and
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founder of the as you were saying, the Dad Edge podcast. I'm also
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the founder of Good Dad Project, which is basically just our umbrella organization.
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Dad Edge is really more the brand and what we do. And I'm married.
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I've been married for seventeen years. I have four boys, which are
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WHOA, fourteen, twelve, six, and four. And if you ever
3:49
want to know what it's like raising four boys, just imagine a drunk fraternity
3:53
party that you never leave, that everyone wants to once see, eat your
3:58
food, pee on the wall, in never go to sleep, Yeah,
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Wow, your wife's a saint. She is a martyr, without a doubt,
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she's a martyr. There's a special place in heaven. Absolutely. How
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did you get started in doing this work? So it really comes down to
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my own struggle as a father and just some of the things that I went
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through as a kid growing up. You know, I didn't really know my
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biological father, even though my parents were married for about five years. They
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got divorced when I was about one, and then my mom got remarried when
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I was five, and then my dad and I got reunited when I was
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twelve, and we hung out for about six months, and then we drifted
4:42
apart again and I didn't meet him again until I was thirty, and that
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was by total accident. I was in a Starbucks with a friend thirty years
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old, and who came walking in the Starbucks to get his morning coffee.
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It was my father, and we had a conversation and that was fifteen years
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ago and we've had a relationship ever since. And my mom Just going back
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to my child, Yeah, crazy, but my mom was married three times,
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she dated men in between, and so I spent half of my childhood
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without a father figure. And then the other half. Whatever man was involved
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in my mom's life usually was there was some sort of toxicity. There was
5:21
some sort of alcoholism, drug use abuse. I mean, so it was
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a bit crazy. And I really started good to project that edge because of
5:30
my own struggles as a father, and I was, you know, just
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headed down a really dark path and was able to turn things around just more
5:39
or less by starting the podcast and the blog and just being a student of
5:44
fatherhood. And I never would have thought in a million years it would be
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where it's at today, but I thank god that it is. Yeah,
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you were being intentional. That's when the good stuff happens, when we're really
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focused and going forward with intention you know, you decided to be really intentional
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about your fatherhood, and it's amazing. It's amazing. What just taking a
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second to think about what we're doing and to move forward with purpose. How
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much different that really makes things. I agree with you, It does make
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a huge difference when you're intentional and purposeful. And I mean that makes all
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the difference in the world. Yeah, and not just in our parenting,
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but for our own lives. You know, they're more rewarding and fulfilling when
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we feel like we are achieving what we want to achieve, not just in
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the sense of goals and financial stability and those sorts of things, but just
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in general. You know, achieving real connection and with our families is really
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not only valuable and empowering, but it kind of it gives that warm,
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fuzzy right, It provides that really good, happy, fulfilled feeling. Absolutely.
6:57
Why don't you start by telling us a little bit about out your journey
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with ADHD. So I have a personal journey myself, and then I also
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have my oldest has it as well, So my own personal journey, I
7:12
mean when I'm forty five. So back when I was younger, I struggled
7:15
in school terribly, absolutely terribly, so much so that I actually failed the
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eighth grade and had to repeat and so, I mean that was really tough.
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I mean, it's one thing to be held back when you're really really
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young, but it's another thing to be held back when you're older, and
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especially that transition from eighth grade to high school. It was really really crazy.
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And what I can tell you is that I definitely had issues with just
7:41
focusing on school. It was like there was just so much information coming at
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me. I mean, I went to a private grade school, so we
7:48
had a lot of work, a lot of homework, and you know,
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I could not focus on really anything. It was really, really tough,
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and you know, I struggled, like I said, in school until probably
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junior year of high school, like no kidding around. My grades really struggled.
8:03
I was never medicated, I never had an IEP. I did have
8:07
some tutoring here and there that helped me. But one thing that I realized
8:11
when I was in high school is that I just learned information differently. So
8:16
if I looked at the teacher and watched him or her teach, I would
8:22
lose focus, you know, if I looked around the room. What I
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did learn is that I was a more auditory learner. So what I would
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do was and some teachers didn't really realize it. But then, you know,
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my grades were fine, so I didn't really get any slack about it.
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But I would literally keep my head down and I would put my hand
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kind of over my eyes, like right around my eyebrows, and then I
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would listen to the words that the teacher would say, and then I would
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take like meticulous notes. So if I heard it reflected and then wrote it,
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I was able to learn it better. And I was also one of
8:54
those people were test taking was really really tough for me. So what I
8:58
did it was as I went above and beyond when it came to studying.
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I studied long hours because that's how I was able to memorize material. And
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I did flash cards a lot because what I realized. I don't know if
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it was an ADHDP brain or what it was, but I can remember writing
9:15
things down. So I would write the questions down, put the answers on
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the back, and then the flash cards would allow me to see the question
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and then I would memorize what it looked like on the back. So that's
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what actually helped me memorize information. I did that all the way up until
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I graduated college, and I graduated with honors, but it took a while
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to really understand like how I learned, because I learned very differently than people
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around me. Yeah, and it's amazing that you had the motivation to do
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it. So many kids with ADHD in school, they get really discouraged by
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the time they hit tenth or eleventh grade, and you know, they start
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feeling like, no matter how hard they try, they're not going to succeed
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because they do learn differently. Yeah, yeah, and the expectation is outside
10:00
of really what they're capable of, and just in a difference, not in
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a way that they're not intelligent or not capable, they just have to do
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it differently. And so I see so many in my own son, included
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the beginning of junior year, he just quit trying. He just gave up.
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He was like, I've tried so hard. Nobody even acknowledges how hard
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I've tried. I still barely pass and I'm so done, you know,
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And so it's been a real battle. It's amazing that you were able to
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really fight for it. I mean, you really did. You fought for
10:33
yourself and that's so awesome, and you really achieved because of it. And
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I think too, it had to have been great for your self confidence and
10:41
self esteem to finally figure out how to do for yourself and learn and succeed
10:48
in that way. It was I mean, it just it took forever because
10:52
they didn't really have the resources that they do today. You know, you
10:56
were just pretty much labeled as an idiot. Yeah, you know, like,
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oh, like he's just he's he's dumb, you know, he he
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doesn't really understand it. He really doesn't get it. He's behind, he's
11:07
this, he's that. So yeah, kinda kind of crazy. That's awesome,
11:13
though, it's a good motivational story for a lot of other kids who
11:16
are struggling in school that you know, there is a way for you to
11:20
succeed, you just have to figure it out. And I'll say it's it's
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a very different culture in school now as far as special education and learning differently,
11:30
but we still have an unbelievable amount to go to really understanding kids with
11:37
learning differences and providing what they need. You know, my son's struggle has
11:41
always been that he has a really high IQ. He's super intelligent, but
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he can't focus. His working memory is terrible, his processing speed is a
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third of his IQ equivalency, and he has dysgraphia, so he can't write
12:00
anything that's legible. And you know, so it's just so wildly misunderstood because
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it's such a dichotomy to have a kid who's almost brilliant and who can't do
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a simple worksheet right successfully, and it's just really hard to figure out how
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to navigate that for kids, for teens and even younger kids, who are
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going through it. It's always easier to give up, right, and they
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fall into that trap so often. So it's such a great thing for you
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to share your story and for them to have these stories that really show that
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if you fight for yourself, you really can succeed. But it's kind of
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up to you, not entirely, you know. Again, we need schools
12:45
on board, we need teachers to understand, you know, we need some
12:48
of those accommodations and so forth. But it is up to you to decide
12:52
if you are willing to do the work, if you're willing to fight for
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it. It's an amazing story. Yeah, and that's true for all of
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us, right, we all have to figure out what we want to fight
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for and what we're willing to put the work into. How much are you
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willing to share about your son and is there anything you want to share with
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everyone about what his ADHD experience has been like so far and what your experience
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has been like as his dad. Yeah, for sure. So my son,
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my oldest son, is the one who's been officially diagnosed, and literally
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we are exactly like I mean, we are literally like two peas in a
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pod. So you know, he doesn't have an intelligence issue at all.
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I mean, he has a processing issue, yeah, and he is an
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IEP. And you know, I love the fact that these school systems now
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they have extra help available that I didn't have growing up. So you know,
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he does get pulled out of class, and he does have extra help
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in math and reading, which is great, and you know, he gets
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to take some extra time on tests and that kind of thing. And he's
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at that age now right now, he's he's fourteen, so he's very,
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very very attuned to the fact that he gets pulled out of class. Before
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it wasn't really a big deal. He's like, oh, you know,
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I just know. But now it's like, wow, like am I dumb?
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Am I this? And my that? I'm like, no, like
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not at all. And what I can tell you is that he gets overwhelmed
14:15
with information just like I used to. So the cool thing about having a
14:20
son who struggles with the same things that I did. And he also actually
14:24
had to repeat first grade, so we held him back in first grade.
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He just was struggling really bad, so we're like, you know what,
14:28
let's let's hold him back now instead of later, you know, give him
14:31
another shot. And now he's he's pretty much all caught up. His grades
14:33
are actually fine. But I do see that he gets very frustrated and stressed
14:41
out when there's a lot of things to do. So my job with him
14:45
is number one. The first thing I do is empathy. Right. I
14:48
don't get upset with him. I don't get mad at him, you know
14:52
when he wants to get angry. Like what I do with him is like,
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I can see you're upset and you're frustrated, and I you know,
15:00
to be honest, I told I remember being in your shoes, so I
15:03
understand what it's like to want to lose your mind, throw your book out
15:07
the window, and you know, because you're so frustrated, would you have
15:11
any objection to me showing you some tips and tricks that have helped me over
15:15
the years but just took me a long time to learn. So empathy kind
15:18
of meeting him where he's at that calms him down, just to know that,
15:22
like, hey, my dad and my parents, they understand where I'm
15:24
at. And the other thing that I so I like. So for instance,
15:28
with reading, right, if he has to do reading comprehension and he
15:31
reads an entire passage and then he gets to the question, he's like,
15:33
I have no idea what the answer to this question is. Yeah, So
15:37
what I usually do is like I'll just say, hey, listen, you
15:39
know, let's read the questions first, just kind of get an idea of
15:43
what information you're going to need to get from reading this passage. And then
15:48
the other thing I do too, is I'm like, Ethan, you know,
15:50
hey, there's there's like three or four or five keywords in this question
15:54
that you can go find these three three or five keywords that are in the
16:00
passage. So instead of reading it all again and going through everything again,
16:03
maybe find a subtitle or maybe find these words in a paragraph, and then
16:07
that's where you're going to find your answer instead of like looking at three pages
16:11
of words, look for the three to five keywords you can remember, and
16:15
that's probably where you're going to find your answer. And just things like that
16:18
that I can tell have really helped him, like lower the amount of stress,
16:23
lower the amount of like, oh my gosh, this is so much
16:26
work. So that's really helped him a ton is just being able to break
16:32
things down and not be so overwhelmed by the volume of work that he has.
16:37
And then the other thing, too, is as far as like a
16:38
confidence thing goes. I always tell him, I'm like, listen, I
16:42
have like pounded this into his head. And I always say, Ethan,
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grades are not the end all, be all measure of how smart you are.
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There's not. They're a piece, like and actually a small piece.
16:52
If you look at some of the most successful minds on the planet, they
16:56
were average students, you know, and that's okay, so you can go
17:00
out and be successful. And the example I use with him is I was,
17:03
like, dude, the smartest people that were in my high school,
17:07
the smartest people they were in my grade school. That grades just came super
17:10
easy. I can name several of them that are not successful. Yeah in
17:15
life. You know, they're not out there creating things. You know,
17:18
they're out there doing, you know, a regular job. Like even though
17:21
they're quote unquote smart and brilliant compared to their grades, But that's not a
17:26
measure of how successful you're going to be or how smart you are. So
17:30
I constantly reinforce that that, please don't base you know, your level of
17:37
intellect on your grades. Yes, that's not the measure, it's not the
17:41
end I'll be all, Yeah, some kids just aren't good at school because
17:45
it's not the right fit, not because they're not intelligent, not even because
17:49
they're not learning. You know, if my son had been quizzed verbally instead
17:55
of giving written tests, he would have monumentally better grades because he's verbally fluent.
18:03
Off the charts, you know, his verbal fluency is up there with
18:06
his intelligence. But once you start putting it on paper and you have writing,
18:11
and you have working memory, and you have all these other, you
18:15
know, skills that he struggles with, it's a completely different ballgame, and
18:19
then he feels incapable. So really finding the ways that celebrate who our kids
18:26
are and allow them to succeed. You know, I talk to parents all
18:30
the time. You have to give your kids opportunities to succeed. And if
18:36
you have a child who's different, who struggles with learning or social skills or
18:41
anything like that, you have to be very intentional with crafting these opportunities.
18:48
You know, whether it's getting that IEP, doing tutoring, you know,
18:52
finding an ally in the school, or even for activities outside of school like
19:00
Scouts for instance, maybe your child is kind of behind socially, maybe it
19:06
would be better and they would be more able to succeed in that environment if
19:11
they were with a scout troop that was more younger instead of being the youngest
19:15
one in an older troop. You know, things like that. You just
19:19
have to really understand who your child is, like you said, really meet
19:23
them where they are to help them to have these opportunities to succeed. And
19:30
even the neuroscience now is backing the fact that the more positive experiences we have,
19:36
that's the way our brain is making neural connections. The more negative experiences
19:41
we have, it's wiring to that negative. So you know, it's monumentally
19:47
important not just for their self esteem and self confidence, but kind of for
19:52
the way that they move through the world, whether they're going to move through
19:55
on a more positive stance or a more negative stance. So super valuable that
20:00
you're really able to understand what he's going through. I mean, so many
20:04
kids with ADHD don't necessarily have a parent who gets it. I don't have
20:11
ADHD. I've kind of made it my life's work to understand as much as
20:15
I can to help my child. But to actually have that experience, to
20:21
have that insight of actually, you know, living a similar path is amazing
20:27
for your son. I think it makes your connection to him stronger too.
20:30
I'm sure it totally does. I mean just the fact that you know,
20:34
we understand each other, that he is someone who supports him, who is
20:38
empathetic. I mean, I remember my mom getting so angry with me when
20:44
I wasn't making grades or you know, getting frustrated. But the thing is,
20:48
I don't blame her for that because like back when I was a kid,
20:52
I mean you were talking like thirty five years ago, when I was
20:55
really struggling. We didn't have the awareness, we didn't have the resources.
20:59
Like parents didn't really they had no idea what to do. They were just
21:03
like, wow, like my kid just isn't smart. Like how defeating is
21:07
that? And as a parent, I mean, even like with the whole
21:10
COVID thing going on, and now suddenly every parent out there is thrusted into
21:15
homeschooling and now you're a teacher, I mean, trying to even teach seventh
21:18
grade math to my kid was like I was like, oh my gosh.
21:22
Like I was like I would tell my kids all the time. I was
21:25
like I know how to do this, but I don't know how to teach
21:27
you how to do this because we're not really taught how to teach it or
21:33
just taught how to do it, and that's like a totally different animal.
21:36
So I can't even imagine being a parent when I was a kid and trying
21:38
to, you know, help these kids figure out homework because it was totally
21:42
different. You know, we didn't have the resources we do now. Yeah,
21:47
yeah, they're really kind of swept under the rug almost. And you
21:51
know, I think back to when I was in high school and I had
21:56
some sort of volunteer credit class or something where I worked in the special ed
22:02
department in the middle school next door. And I think back now, and
22:07
all the kids who were identified who were in those programs were much more obviously
22:15
disabled, right, so the kids with ADHD, the kids who are more
22:19
sort of high functioning, which I hate that term, but they were probably
22:23
and I'm sure this was your experience just in class with everybody else trying to
22:27
figure it out and nobody noticing that it was a whole lot harder for them.
22:32
Yeah, I mean it totally agree. I mean I think kind of
22:37
going back to what we had then and what we have now, I think
22:41
parents can really do a really good job of educating themselves on just resources and
22:48
tactics and techniques and just understanding like how these kids' brains just worked just a
22:52
little bit differently. And the thing that I know in your show that you
22:56
constantly hit home is, look, your kid is not dumb. Okay,
23:00
your kid is most likely brilliant. Their brains just work differently, and that's
23:07
okay. I mean, that's totally okay. If you look and I don't
23:11
want to get on a tirade about the school system, but if you look
23:12
at one area of life and history, look at all the things that have
23:19
evolved over the years. Technology has evolved, Parenting has evolved, like you
23:25
know, the workforce has evolved. And the one thing that hasn't really evolved
23:30
in years is the way we teach kids in school. It is still the
23:33
same way, pretty much the same way it was when I was a kid.
23:37
It's pretty much the same way it was when my parents were kids.
23:41
It's one thing that we just haven't evolved now. I will say this,
23:45
I think public school systems have gotten better about, you know, IEPs and
23:48
identifying kids who need extra help, and then you usually have state support behind
23:52
you when it comes to identifying and recording you know what exactly is necessary.
23:57
You can get advocates now, which is great. So there's all kinds.
24:02
There's a whole host of different resources now that we didn't have. But still
24:04
overall we haven't really evolved the school system, you know, to really match
24:10
what maybe kids need these days. Even the kids that quote unquote fit in
24:12
that box and they do well in the system, they could still probably do
24:18
a better job. You know, if you ask me, I could totally
24:21
jump on that tirade with you. We have not changed the way we teach
24:26
in one hundred years. It was started as creating workers who did what they
24:33
were told and all did the same thing, you know, for assembly lines
24:37
and factories and things like that. And it's really still completely a system of
24:41
conformity. We're still not teaching kids to think for themselves, to think outside
24:47
the box, to do things differently. It's all this is the one way
24:51
you do this, and these are the things you have to learn. And
24:55
it's a real struggle, especially for kids who don't get really interesting or excited
25:00
unless it's a topic that's of interest. We've really struggled with that too,
25:03
you know. If we're in sophomore math last year he was struggling so much
25:11
with it, and he was like, I'm never going to do this ever.
25:17
I'm never going to do this again. The three things on my list
25:19
that I might want to have as a job or a career in my life,
25:23
none of them require this math. So why do I have to do
25:26
it now? You know it's hard, It's really hard, And our education
25:32
system definitely needs to evolve. We need to start teaching individuals instead of you
25:37
know, just this system of conformity. But yeah, we could, I'm
25:41
sure both go on for days about that. Oh yeah, I'm sure we
25:45
could. Let's shift gears a little bit and talk about fatherhood. You and
25:57
I were talking before we started courting. The only experience that I know,
26:02
of course, is motherhood, and I think fatherhood is a completely different experience.
26:07
And sometimes fathers aren't as involved in the day to day kind of ADHD
26:12
management, like doctors appointments and medication checkups and therapy appointments and things like that,
26:18
maybe not even IEP meetings or school meetings, And so I think it's
26:23
really important again we're going to talk about this intention and purpose to really go
26:29
forward making an effort to be really connected to what's going on, even if
26:36
you're not necessarily part of that day to day sort of machine of managing ADHD.
26:42
Yeah, so where would you like to start? How can I best
26:45
serve like the fatherhood voice out there? I'm probably talking to an audience full
26:49
of moms. Maybe no, And you know, I think we have dads
26:52
for sure, and I'm seeing a lot more dads in our community, which
26:56
is amazing. And I find that a lot of moms who listen or participate
27:03
or even take my courses will then you know, get dad involved. Oh
27:07
look, oh you've got to hear this or they're passing it on, so
27:11
to speak. So I think connection is the most powerful thing we have as
27:18
human beings for a multitude of things, not just fulfillment and happiness, but
27:22
also it calms our autonomic nervous system, which helps our brains function better.
27:27
You know, it's really powerful stuff. And so how do dads really genuinely
27:33
connect with their kids and make sure that they're kind of maintaining that? Yeah.
27:38
So luckily I've been in this dad space for years. We've got almost
27:42
six hundred episodes on dat Edge podcast we've done, and so it's been a
27:48
what I always say is I'm no fatherhood expert, but I've got a front
27:52
row seat to an amazing education. And we've had experts from all walks of
27:59
life, from parenting to Navy seals to pro athletes to you know, experts
28:04
like yourself who share knowledge on ADHD, anxiety, depression, all kinds of
28:11
different things. And here's what I can tell you. A couple of quotes
28:15
that I think really resonate with fathers is without connection, you have no influence.
28:19
Without connection, you have no influence. So what does that mean?
28:25
You know, you can really do a disservice to the connection with your kid
28:29
by getting in the weeds of frustration and anger when it comes to school work.
28:33
Now here's what I'll say. I mean, there's a caveat Every kid
28:37
is different, not every kid fits in a box. And to be honest,
28:41
I don't know how to raise a kid who's given up on school because
28:45
I haven't faced that yet. So I'm not speaking to the fathers of the
28:48
parents who are like, hey, I can't even get my kid to do
28:49
anything. Luckily, with our kids, they still have drive and motivation to
28:56
do well in school even when they get frustrated with it. So here's what
29:00
I'll say when it comes to fatherhood and fathers and that kind of thing.
29:03
Get your hands dirty, number one. Get in the weeds of these IEP
29:07
meetings. You know, ask good questions, you know, come to the
29:11
table, you know, asking for more help from these teachers during these IEP
29:15
meetings. You know, force yourself to understand, you know, what exactly
29:19
you know because ADHD can be a variety of different things. So understand what
29:25
exactly does my kid struggle with? So like I understand that my son has
29:30
a problem with processing. And here's the cool thing. I mean, if
29:33
you're a dad listening to this, I think it's safe to say, again
29:36
you would probably know better than me. But ADHD affects more men, more
29:40
more males than it does females. So being a father, the chances of
29:44
you, you know, growing up with ADHD and then having a child with
29:48
ADHD is pretty high. Yes, So allow your own experiences to use empathy
29:53
with your kids. And you know, what does that look like? What
29:56
does tactical empathy look like? Tactical EmPATH is not sympathy. I'm so sorry
30:02
you feel that way. I'm so sorry you're having problems in school. That's
30:04
pity. And your kids don't want pity, you know, they want to
30:08
be understood, they want to be heard, they want to be connected.
30:11
So the thing that I always use, you know, men need a map,
30:15
we need guidance. The one thing that and I talk about this individual
30:18
all the time because like, literally he's changed my life. But if you
30:21
if you ever want to pick up a fascinating, amazing book on communication,
30:25
it will help you in your marriage work, even dealing with a kid who
30:27
has ADHD. Pick up the book Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss.
30:32
Chris Foss was the chief hostage negotiator for the FBI and his book is a
30:36
crash course like PhD and communication. One chapter in particular is tactical empathy.
30:41
And I love those two words, tactical empathy because it sounds cool, it
30:45
sounds mass, it sounds like a dad thing, right, Tactical empathy,
30:48
So you know what does that look like? Tactical empathy is when someone is
30:52
acting in a certain way and you're like, wow, there's a lot of
30:56
emotion here. There's a lot of things going on. And one thing that
30:59
I will tell you, no matter or if it's your kid, if it's
31:00
your wife, it's your cowork or whatever. However someone is reacting, responding,
31:04
or behaving, it makes total sense to them in that moment. So
31:07
like the fact that my kid is getting like irate with the fact that he
31:11
can't finish his homework and there's so many words on this page and he's overwhelmed,
31:17
and he has literally used the words I want to throw my computer out
31:19
the window. Dad. Yep. So instead of being like, dude,
31:22
don't get so upset, why are you getting so upset? This is easy.
31:26
You can read through. This is seventh grade stuff. Man. All
31:29
you got to worry about is school way do you get a full time job?
31:32
Right? I mean, that's that's how we talk to these kids.
31:33
It is so if you can use the words like, sounds like, feels
31:38
like, looks like, any one of those three phrases, sounds like,
31:42
looks like, feels like, fill in whatever emotion you might see that your
31:47
kid is displaying and then allow them to talk. So like, So,
31:52
for instance, if I see my son getting I rate, do I get
31:53
my feathers ruffled? Sure, because I'm like, man, I just want
31:56
you to calm down. But I don't say that like Ethan feels like it
32:00
really overwhelmed right now, you know? Is that accurate? Yeah, it's
32:04
accurate. Like, I'm really overwhelmed Dad, I'm really really stressed out.
32:07
Brother. I understand exactly where you're coming from. When I was your age
32:12
in seventh grade, I thought I was going to lose my mind when I
32:15
was trying to do reading comprehension, so many words on the page and then
32:19
trying to go back to the questions, and I'm just like, Oh,
32:21
I just want to pull my hair out. Is that where you're at.
32:22
Yeah, that's where I'm at. Okay, now that we know where you're
32:25
at, how can Dad best help you right now? What feels right to
32:30
you? And sometimes he's in that headspace of like, I don't know.
32:34
I just don't know. I don't know what you can do. Okay,
32:36
you know, what do you mind if I share some things that have worked
32:38
for me. They took me a long time to learn, and it worked
32:43
for me. And perhaps maybe if I go over some tips and tricks that
32:45
have worked for me and I've had to learn it the hard way, maybe
32:47
we can shorten your learning curve and you're not as frustrated as Dad was.
32:52
Growing up. So what do you say, Yeah, that'd be great,
32:53
Okay, and then I'll go into here's how we can go through this.
32:58
But when you start with that sounds like, it looks like, feels like,
33:01
seems like whatever, seems like you're really overwhelmed right now. What that
33:06
does is your kid is now connected to you. Wow, Dad sees me,
33:10
Dad understands me. I feel safe, you know, displaying whatever emotion
33:16
is going on in my head, and I don't feel shame and guilt.
33:20
They already feel stupid, right and getting mad at them not only makes them
33:24
feel stupid but now discouraged. So don't do that. They want to feel
33:29
connected to you. So if you can use tactical empathy to connect with your
33:31
kid, and then you know, start asking really good questions, how can
33:36
I best help you right now? What feels right to you? I mean,
33:38
the chances are they might be so escalated that they won't be able to
33:42
tell you, but then you'll be able to go through some suggestions. But
33:45
I think tactical empathy is a really, really big one. I also think
33:50
that here's a big one, Penny. And I know you probably already know
33:52
this. I never and I don't care what kid it is. I don't
33:55
care if it's my fourteen year old who struggles with ADHD, I don't care
33:59
if I'm a twelve year old who, by the way, school comes so
34:01
easy to him, it's not even funny, or if it's my other kids.
34:05
I will never, ever, ever, ever congratulate them on their grade.
34:10
Ever, even if they got an A plus on a test, I
34:14
will never say, you are so smart, good job on that A plus.
34:19
No. Never, And let me explain why when you do that.
34:22
You're praising your kid for a result. You're not praising them for work.
34:27
You're not praising them for studying. You're not praising them for how much time
34:31
it took for them to put into that to get that grade. What I
34:35
say is, wow, you know you must have worked so hard to get
34:39
that. Tell me what you did that that result happened. You got an
34:44
A plus on that test? What kind of work went into that? Because
34:46
I'm sure you probably put in some hours to do that, And then that
34:51
kid will then definitely will articulate, yeah, here's what I did. Boom
34:54
boom boom, boom boom, versus like, oh, you're so smart A
34:57
plus, You're so smart that. Yeah. Yeah, always praise effort and
35:04
the work that's put in, not the result exactly, for sure, for
35:07
sure. Yeah, And you're doing a lot of reflective listening and by asking,
35:14
you know, tell me what you did that helped you to get that
35:17
result, you're reinforcing that work in their minds. You know, you're pointing
35:24
it out again so that later when they come to a similar situation they can
35:30
pull from that. They're going to remember, oh, yeah, I did
35:32
this and this I worked really hard. I really you know, fought my
35:37
disinterest whatever it was, to do well with this thing. And you know,
35:43
the more experiences they have that are positive, the more we focus on
35:47
the action, the better able they are in later circumstances to pull from that
35:53
to maybe repeat that. And I'm a huge proponent of empathy. I think
35:59
it's the number one parenting to all validation and empathy. I never knew there
36:04
was a term for it called tactical empathy, but I love it and it's
36:08
everything. And you know, it is really easy for us to react in
36:13
the way that you said, and that's the key. It's reacting instead of
36:16
really responding with intention. When our kids often look like they are overreacting.
36:23
They often look like they're making a mountain out of a molehill, right,
36:29
And what we have to understand is that's true for them in that moment.
36:32
That is a true, honest feeling, that is what they are going through,
36:37
that is what they are internalizing, what they're experiencing and acknowledging. That
36:44
is super super powerful because it does it shows that they can trust us.
36:49
It shows that we understand what is going on with them, where they are,
36:53
what they're struggling with. It's monumentally powerful really in the world in all
37:00
but definitely with our kids. I call the phrase how can I help you?
37:05
The magic phrase for ADHD and autism because you know, we're saying,
37:10
Okay, I see where you are, I understand how you're feeling, or
37:15
at least acknowledge how you're feeling. What can I do? I want to
37:21
help you. I don't want to tell you to behave better or to stop
37:25
whining about something that isn't important. I want to show you that I get
37:30
it and I want to help. And I've learned recently that we really have
37:35
to take that a step further to how can I help you help yourself?
37:39
Because now our kids are teens. They're working toward independence, and we need
37:45
to be furthering that that ability for them to step back in those moments and
37:52
be able to figure out what they need for themselves as well, because someday
37:57
they're going to have to use that. So again, and I agree,
38:00
empathy is the number one most powerful parenting tool, really strategy. It's amazing
38:08
it is. I mean because at the end of the day, I mean,
38:10
our kids need guidance. We have to guide them. But shaming them
38:15
into a behavior, I think it's a temporary fix. Now, Am I
38:21
guilty that? Oh my god, yeah, you know when it comes to
38:25
some things. But I can honestly say without a shadow of a doubt that
38:30
I don't do that with school. I did do that once, And to
38:35
be honest, I wish I could erase this off my son's hard drive,
38:38
of his mind, of his brain. So my son was in he's now
38:44
he's going to be in eighth grade, when he was in fourth grade,
38:49
And this is a really vulnerable story, you know, and full transparency of
38:52
how our own fears can literally like just wreck a moment. And this was
39:00
before I was really podcasting. I had just gotten started. I didn't know
39:04
much about ADHD and I looked at my son more through the eyes of he
39:08
was lazy, and more through the eyes of like, why don't you understand
39:13
this? And he was in fourth grade, And he was in fourth grade
39:17
he brought home homework. He was throwing a fit that he didn't want to
39:21
do it. And I looked at him and I banged my fist on the
39:24
table and I said, you better do your homework. I was like,
39:28
because you cannot afford to do another grade over again. Do you understand me?
39:35
And I could tell, like by look on his face, like it
39:37
got to him, but I didn't realize how much it got to him.
39:40
And I would say every now and again, like, hey, Dad,
39:43
do you remember that time? And I'm like, I was like, man,
39:45
I was like, look, I wish I could take that back.
39:49
Like I wouldn't have said that if I would have been better educated on what
39:52
was going on for you. I was like, that was me looking through
39:57
the lens of my own past and how horrible it was for me to repeat
40:01
a grade, and like that was my own fear coming out in anger to
40:07
yell at you, to motivate you, because I didn't want you to experience
40:09
what I experience, which is doing a grade over again. And that was
40:15
my stuff, that was my own bagage, not yours. And if anything,
40:19
I wish I could take that all over again, you know, but
40:22
I unfortunately I just can't, and it just really sucks. But it is
40:25
what it is. And all you can do is what you know, and
40:30
when you know better, you do better. And I think it's so important
40:34
for our kids to see us make mistakes. They need to understand that everybody
40:40
makes mistakes. And our traditional culture of parenting, we are supposed to look
40:47
perfect. We're never supposed to let our kids see us make mistakes. But
40:52
it's so valuable for them to know that everybody makes mistakes. No one is
40:58
perfect. And see you, you know, handle that the best way that
41:04
you could to make an apology to you know, express that you wish you
41:09
could take it back. You know, that shows him what real life is
41:14
like. We all say things we wish we could take back at times.
41:17
We all make mistakes, we all do the wrong things. I tell my
41:22
kids all the time about the really stupid things I did when I was a
41:28
teenager and in college, because I don't want to see them repeat those things,
41:34
you know, and I want them to know that we are real people.
41:38
We were in their shoes once, or in similar shoes, We were
41:43
their age, and we made mistakes, just like they're going to make mistakes.
41:47
It's so important, and I think even you know, having that conversation
41:52
more than once about that one thing that happened, because it hurt you so
41:58
deeply that you went there, is important for him to really understand that you're
42:02
a human too, and that, you know, I think he realizes that
42:07
you didn't mean it in the way that it felt at this point because you've
42:10
had that conversation, and again, all you can do is what you know
42:15
to do. You know. I talked to so many parents with so many
42:19
regrets, and if you were doing the best that you could do, how
42:24
can you fault yourself for that. We have to give ourselves grace and dads
42:30
too. It's just amazing to me that we still try so hard to look
42:36
perfect for our kids, and it's totally culturally ingrained in us to do it,
42:43
and yet it's so much more helpful to our kids if we don't.
42:46
If we don't look perfect to them, which seems a little counterintuitive, but
42:51
it's really not anything else that you want to make sure that we talk about
42:55
for our dads listening before we close the show. Yeah, for sure.
43:00
You know. The last thing I'll say about dads is men in general are
43:02
notorious about living life on their own. In other words, we're surrounded physically
43:07
by people all day long, yet mentally and emotionally we sort of live on
43:12
our own, isolated island. Every question that you ask us, we usually
43:16
respond with good or fine. How's life fine, how's work good? How's
43:22
the family fine? You know. So it's like the older men get.
43:25
We have relationships what I like to call well, actually not what I like
43:29
to call. This is not my Steven Mansfield, New York Times bestselling author
43:32
of Building a Band of Brothers, also mansfield Book of Manly Men, and
43:37
now his newest Bookman on Fire, he talks about what's called rust relationships,
43:42
which it's kind of like your college buddies or high school buddies, or maybe
43:45
even people you work with, where you talk about the same five things,
43:47
same shallow five things that you always talk about, and it's always over a
43:52
beer because we don't know how to even interact unless we've got some sort of
43:55
and don't get me wrong, I like to drink every now and again too,
43:59
But it's almost like men don't know how to relate unless they are drinking.
44:02
Right, So what I'll tell you is that one of the best things
44:07
you can do as a man is to create a tribe, a band of
44:12
brothers that will support you, that are not only like know you, but
44:15
man, they are in your life. They're asking you questions like, hey,
44:19
man, how are you and Jessica doing? Like? How's communication?
44:22
Are you guys dating? You know, dating each other? Are you having
44:25
good conversations? Are you being intimate? Like how are your finances? Like
44:30
how are those things going? How's your stress level? How's your patience with
44:32
your kids? Are you connecting with them? Men need to be challenged and
44:37
men need to have deeper conversations. Men need to be authentic and vulnerable with
44:42
each other. And I think a lot of men view that as like,
44:44
oh wow, that's a very feminine, emotional thing to do to be authentic
44:46
and vulnerable with a man. That's not the case. In fact, the
44:51
strongest and most courageous thing you'll do is to interact like that with a man.
44:55
And let me clarify real quick. What authentic and vulnerable really means it
45:00
is not weak. It's not you weeping and crying and like I just want
45:02
to talk about my feelings. It is not that way at all. Being
45:06
authentic and vulnerable is like, hey, man, I really want to elevate
45:10
my marriage with Jessica, and I see you and Penny, you know,
45:15
really communicating. Well, you guys seem like you're so in love. Help
45:20
a brother out, man, Like, what are y'all doing? Give me
45:22
a day in the life so I understand and what I can do? You
45:27
know in my marriage, what do you got? What you're doing is when
45:30
you're asking for help or you're asking for assistance, you've just complimented the heck
45:35
out of that guy, and you did it in a very masculine way.
45:37
And you've opened up now the relationship to what I like to call an authentic
45:40
relationship. That isn't talking about what Trump just tweeted out, or what you
45:45
did on the weekend, or what sport your kid is in. Like,
45:49
those are real conversations and every guy shoulders to shoulder face to face with you.
45:52
We want these conversations. So build your tribe, build those people around
45:58
you. It is so essential it's so much easier and better to navigate life
46:04
when you do it as a team, and when you do it as a
46:06
tribe. We were not meant to live isolated. So that's one thing I
46:08
want to say to men out there is never ever be afraid to ask for
46:14
help, and you know, go arm in arm with a man who wants
46:17
to do life with you, or a group of men who want to do
46:21
life with you. That tribe is so valuable. We all need someone that
46:25
we can go to who understands a little bit, you know, who gets
46:31
where you're coming from and can support you in that way and connect much more
46:37
deeply than I think men and our culture do typically. It reminds me of
46:43
actually a Friend's episode where they talk about how the girls share everything with each
46:47
other, and so they decided the guys decided they were going to share everything
46:52
and it ended up backfiring on them because of course it was a comedy,
46:57
it was not, you know, a real life connection sharing. But it
47:01
always reminds me of that when people talk about guys opening up and not typically
47:07
sharing and it's so important. And you know, again I can only speak
47:10
from the mother female perspective, but we have built a mom tribe of moms
47:20
who have kids with neurobehavioral and neural developmental disorders, and it's everything. It
47:25
is everything to have a group of women who understand in at least you know,
47:32
seventy eighty percent of what our parenthood is like, of what the struggle
47:37
is like some days, and you just need that support. You really do
47:43
need that support to be able to be vulnerable and to grow, because if
47:50
we're not vulnerable, we can't grow in our relationships. Super good stuff,
47:55
so much good stuff. And I definitely encourage all all the dads out there
48:00
to listen to the Dad Edge podcast. I will have links of many different
48:07
ways that you can connect with Larry and his work in the show notes.
48:13
His website is good dadproject dot com. You will have a link to the
48:16
alliance as well and the podcast and other ways to connect. For the show
48:22
notes for this episode, go to PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com Slash two seven
48:29
one for episode two hundred and seventy one. I want to thank you again,
48:35
Larry, such a great conversation. So glad to have someone on the
48:38
podcast representing the dads out there. I so appreciate you being a voice out
48:44
there for us parents out there who are raising kids with ADHD, and add
48:50
thank you. It's valuable work for sure, both of us. And so
48:54
with that we will conclude this episode. I'll see everyone next time. Thanks
49:00
for joining me on the Beautifully Complex Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode,
49:05
please subscribe and share, and don't forget to check out my online courses and
49:08
parent coaching at Parenting ADHD and Autism dot com and at the Behavior Revolution dot com