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Luigi Mangione Facing Death Penalty as Health Care Industry Celebrates Itself · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the last days, the
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Speaker 1: federal government has announced that Luigi mangione accused in gunning
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Speaker 1: down a healthcare CEO boss, will face the death penalty.
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Speaker 1: If administered, it will be by lethal injection. Not only that,
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Speaker 1: the healthcare industri's PR Awards just went down and Luigi
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Speaker 1: Mangioni was not the only specter floating around the gala event.
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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Greace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for
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Speaker 1: being with us. Just weeks after the United Healthcare boss
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Speaker 1: Brian Thompson was murdered on a Manhattan street, bleeding out
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Speaker 1: there on the sidewalk, all the superstars of the healthcare
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Speaker 1: industry Brave returned to Midtown Manhattan. There was just seven
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Speaker 1: blocks over from where shellcasings were found on the sidewalk.
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Speaker 1: The occasion the twenty twenty five PR Week health Care Awards,
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Speaker 1: celebrating the men and women that craft the public perception
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Speaker 1: of pharmaceutical companies, healthcare insurance companies, hospitals, care providers. How
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Speaker 1: do they do it through lobbying, corporate outreach advertising. Yep,
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Speaker 1: it was a pretty glitzy affair. Did anybody bring up
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Speaker 1: the disaster Brian Thompson, a father of two boys murder.
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Speaker 1: It was certainly haunting the entire ballroom. I wonder if
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Speaker 1: this will be the defense's exhibits. For instance, I learned
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Speaker 1: that Lily, the country's largest pharmaceutical company, reported forty five
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Speaker 1: billion that's b as in brother billion dollars of revenue
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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four. That's nearly thirty three percent more
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Speaker 1: than last year. Their net income was up one hundred
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Speaker 1: and two percent. Their profit margin jumped from fifteen to
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Speaker 1: twenty four percent. Dang. This on the heels of their
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Speaker 1: launch something called kissun Law. It's a new drug for
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Speaker 1: Alzheimer's that costs a single patient thirty two thousand dollars
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Speaker 1: a year. United Healthcare, while mourning the murder of Brian Thompson,
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Speaker 1: reeled in a record four hundred point three billion as
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Speaker 1: in brother in revenue twenty twenty four and got their
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Speaker 1: best ever adjusted profit of ever twenty five billion. Wow, Okay,
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Speaker 1: they're all celebrating. It was at a place called gustav Vino's.
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Speaker 1: It's an upscale East side venue. I never had the
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Speaker 1: opportunity to be there, probably couldn't afford it anyway. Now,
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Speaker 1: Unlike the most recent big event for the healthcare industry,
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Speaker 1: the JP Morgan Healthcare Conference that was in January. It
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Speaker 1: was very security heavy, but this night at Gustavino's, nobody
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Speaker 1: even checked ID, asking right when you walked in, would
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Speaker 1: you like some champagne? I think I could use a
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Speaker 1: glass right now, and I'm a teetotaler. Okay, while they're
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Speaker 1: toasting champagne for all of their profits, Luigi Manngioni, according
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Speaker 1: to many, is rightly facing the death penalty. Why reality check?
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Speaker 1: A ghost gun, a silencer, multiple fake IDs, and hand
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Speaker 1: written manifesto attacking the health care industry.
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Speaker 2: Earlier this morning, in Altuna, Pennsylvania, members of the Altuna
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Speaker 2: Police Department arrested Luigi Mangioni, a twenty six year old
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Speaker 2: mail on firearms charges. At this time, he is believed
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Speaker 2: to be our person of interest.
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Speaker 1: That's right. In the last hours, a person of interest
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Speaker 1: nabbed in the fatal shooting of healthcare boss Brian Thopson.
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Speaker 1: From what we understand, McDonald's employee and Altoona in western
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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania spotted the guy and thinks he looked like the
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Speaker 1: health boss assassin, probably trying to use a fake ID
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Speaker 1: in a McDonald's. According to law enforcement and the New
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Speaker 1: York Post, the man being eyed for the cold blooded
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Speaker 1: execution of Brian Topson. The guy has a gun, a
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Speaker 1: silencer for fake IDs, and other items consistent with what
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Speaker 1: Lee was looking for in the case. But is it him?
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Speaker 1: Does he match this description? According to a McDonald's employee,
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Speaker 1: he does? What else do we know? Where? Is Altoona, Pennsylvania,
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Speaker 1: Western Pennsylvania, two hundred and eighty miles away from Manhattan,
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Speaker 1: a little over a five hour drive. But the manhunt
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Speaker 1: across the nation going in every direction from Manhattan. Divers, drones,
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Speaker 1: you name it, all used employed to find the killer
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Speaker 1: of the health care boss. What led to the detainment
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Speaker 1: of this guy? We also understand that in his possession
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Speaker 1: is a New Jersey ID, a fake ID, possibly used
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Speaker 1: to check into that Manhattan hostile In the last hours
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Speaker 1: police press conference listen.
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Speaker 3: A man was taken it to custody today at Altuda,
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Speaker 3: Pennsylvania this morning. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangioni.
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Speaker 3: He's a male, twenty six years old. He was born
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Speaker 3: and raised in Maryland. We know he has tis to
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Speaker 3: San Francisco, California, and his last known address was Honolulu, Hawaii.
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Speaker 3: He has no prior arrest history in New York. Members
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Speaker 3: of the NYPD Detective Bureau are currently traveling to Pennsylvania
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Speaker 3: with members of the Manhattan District Attorney's Office to interview
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Speaker 3: this subject. This case was brought to a successful conclusion
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Speaker 3: based on the coordinated effort between numerous NYPD units, including
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Speaker 3: the Intelligence and counter Terrorism Bureau, our federal partners at
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Speaker 3: the FBI, the Manhattan District Attorney's Office, and of course,
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Speaker 3: members of the Altoona Police Department in Pennsylvania. On Thursday,
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Speaker 3: one day after this crime was committed, the NYPD released
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Speaker 3: a photo of the shooter in this case. This picture
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Speaker 3: was obtained by the NYPD during one of their extensive
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Speaker 3: video can We took that photograph and we asked for
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Speaker 3: the public's health and identifying this subject, and the public responded.
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Speaker 3: Hundreds of tips began to pour into our hotline. Each
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Speaker 3: tip was investigated thoroughly, and we began to release additional
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Speaker 3: photographs as they came into our possession. The NYPD provided
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Speaker 3: these photos to numerous media outlets. Local, national, and international
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Speaker 3: outlets released the photo via television, print, social media, and
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Speaker 3: online content. Luckily, a citizen in Pennsylvania recognized our subject
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Speaker 3: and called local law enforcement. Members of the Altoona Police
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Speaker 3: Department responded to the call and based on their investigation,
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Speaker 3: they notified the NYPD. This investigation is still active and ongoing.
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Speaker 3: Thank you very much.
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Speaker 4: I had a couple questions about document that he was
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Speaker 4: found in possession with. Can you go a little bit
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Speaker 4: more in depth about those motivations that you mentioned, was
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Speaker 4: that CEO specifically named in that document? Was there anything
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Speaker 4: more about in one to go after others? And also
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Speaker 4: in that doctor was there any indication that explains us
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Speaker 4: how the level of detail that he went into killing him, like,
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Speaker 4: is there anything else?
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Speaker 3: That document is currently in the possession of the Ottoon
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Speaker 3: of Police Department as part of their investigation, but just
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Speaker 3: from briefly speaking with them, we don't think that there's
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Speaker 3: any specific threats to other people mentioned in that document,
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Speaker 3: but it does seem that he has some ill will
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Speaker 3: towards Corporate America.
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Speaker 4: Can you point to a single linchpin that held practice case.
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Speaker 3: There's numerous lynchpins in this case, and the fact that
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Speaker 3: we've recovered an enormous amount of forensic evidence, an enormous
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Speaker 3: amount of video and once again with your help and
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Speaker 3: the public SELP. So I couldn't. I really couldn't put
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Speaker 3: it on one thing, but if I had to, it
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Speaker 3: would be the release of that photograph from the media.
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Speaker 3: We had divers in the ward yesterday that came up
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Speaker 3: negative results the passport. We don't believe that he was
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Speaker 3: planning on doing any traveling at this time. We don't
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Speaker 3: think he at this point our investigation, we don't think
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Speaker 3: he was trying to flee the country.
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Speaker 5: Person at McDonald's where they buying, what.
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Speaker 1: Were they do were not that exactly.
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Speaker 3: It was an employee at the McDonald's. But what was
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Speaker 3: the suspect do He was sitting there reading, Well.
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Speaker 1: He brought back to New York and charge here, and.
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Speaker 3: Wow, we're going to have to work that out with
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Speaker 3: the Manhattan District Attorney's Office in Altoona, Pennsylvania. He's going
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Speaker 3: to be facing gun charges there and at some point
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Speaker 3: we'll work out through extradition to bring him back to
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Speaker 3: New York to face charges here, working with the Manhattan
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Speaker 3: District Attorney's Office.
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Speaker 4: I Needa Hi Nada from the New York Post.
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Speaker 6: I was just hoping to get more details of the
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Speaker 6: capture itself.
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Speaker 1: Did he put up a fight, did.
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Speaker 6: He say anything the cops?
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Speaker 2: And we've also recorded that he published online anti health
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Speaker 2: ka industry rantings.
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Speaker 6: Can you share with us some of the services that
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Speaker 6: he posted.
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Speaker 3: On We're still working through his social media. We're going
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Speaker 3: to do a complete scrub of that. Preliminarily, like I said,
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Speaker 3: he seems that he had some ill will towed Corporate America,
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Speaker 3: but that will all come out as part of our investigation.
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Speaker 3: We're not done here. We're still going to be putting
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Speaker 3: this together. We're still going to be working very hard
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Speaker 3: to bring this to a successful conclusion.
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Speaker 1: A ghost gun, a silencer, fake IDs, and a handwritten
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Speaker 1: manifesto attacking the healthcare industry sounds like our guy. But
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Speaker 1: what else led to this entertainment in Pennsylvania? Hey, doctor
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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall joining us, our renown psychoalyst out of La,
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Speaker 1: author of deal Breaker. You can see her on Peacock Now,
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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany. The theory that the assassin meant to scatter
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Speaker 1: toy monopoly money over the dead body. That tells me
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Speaker 1: a lot about him. He's got a lot of time
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Speaker 1: sitting in somebody's basement, thinking and plotting. It almost rules
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Speaker 1: out a day job in my mind. But that said,
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Speaker 1: we know he's white male. We know he's got money
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Speaker 1: and a guy that can fund himself cash wise for
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Speaker 1: nearly two weeks in Manhattan. We also know that while
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Speaker 1: he may have meant to scatter fake monopoly money all
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Speaker 1: over the dead body, sending a message as if the
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Speaker 1: nine millimeter bullet didn't do that, he didn't leave the
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Speaker 1: money behind. But he did leave behind a water bottle
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Speaker 1: with DNA and fingerprints on it. He left behind a
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Speaker 1: candy or bar wrapper. He left behind a burner phone.
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Speaker 1: If they can break into that burner flown burner phone,
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Speaker 1: that is going to be a tremendous source of evidence.
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Speaker 1: But he forgot to strow the money, Nancy, he forgot it.
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Speaker 7: This guy is obsessional. In the crime world, you may
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Speaker 7: say methodical. I say obsessional, meaning he has been thinking
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Speaker 7: about this for a long long time. When I have
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Speaker 7: a patient like this come into my Beverly Hills office,
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Speaker 7: they usually are enraged at.
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Speaker 6: One person and that is all they can talk about.
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Speaker 7: What they would like to do, what the person's look
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Speaker 7: on their face would be like, you know, Nancy.
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Speaker 6: With obsessional paranoia, the person person sort of alleviates their
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Speaker 6: rage by constantly thinking about inflicting harm on the victim.
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Speaker 6: But I also think although he obsessed about this and
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Speaker 6: planned it out, this was his first crime, he did
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Speaker 6: not He did not think about what it would be
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Speaker 6: like to drop a candy wrapper, drop the water bottle.
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Speaker 6: He didn't have time to plan them. He didn't have
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Speaker 6: time to scatter the monopoly money. This was all in
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Speaker 6: his head. You'd never practiced before.
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Speaker 1: Hey, you know what, Tom Smith, former NYPD knows this
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Speaker 1: area like the back of his hand. Tom the burner,
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Speaker 1: the cell phone. I mean, there's an outside chance it's
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Speaker 1: his actual cell phone. But the reports wearing is it's
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Speaker 1: a burner phone. Lauren Colin, Yes, no burner phone, actual phone,
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Speaker 1: burner phone, Nancy, Tom Smith. What I'm coming to you
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Speaker 1: about is the phone? What an idiot? I think. Bethany's right,
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Speaker 1: this may be his first time at the rodeo. And
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Speaker 1: you know, like, well, let me think of a good one. Robert.
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Speaker 1: Remember when he and his henchman got his bodyguards, got
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Speaker 1: together and murdered Bonni Lee Bakley, and they had this
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Speaker 1: extensive to do list. Very often you can catch the
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Speaker 1: purp because of their to do list and they're over planning, right.
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Speaker 1: But the burner phone they're really hard to break into.
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Speaker 1: Do you remember in the Alexan Burrog trial they had
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Speaker 1: to bring in the Secret Service to crack his phone.
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Speaker 8: Yeah, and I agree with Lauren. It's a burner phone
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Speaker 8: and who knows what's on there. Yeah, he could just
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Speaker 8: use it for simple things. Again, if he plans it
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Speaker 8: out and knows Berner phones and what to use them for.
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Speaker 8: There may not be a lot on there, but the
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Speaker 8: ability to break in there might not be that difficult
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Speaker 8: because of the low technology that Bernarfone Giugi are and
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Speaker 8: the limited amount of information that'll be on there.
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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace as healthcare haun shows attend
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Speaker 1: a swinky pr award glitzy galla evening at Gustavino's in Manhattan.
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Speaker 1: Luigi Manngioni is now facing the death penalty. Boo hoo.
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Speaker 1: Some would argue that's what you get for gunning down
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Speaker 1: a CEO boss in cold blood on the sidewalk in Manhattan,
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Speaker 1: leaving behind a widow and two little boys without a father.
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Speaker 1: All the surveillance video, all the pictures that we've got
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Speaker 1: so far, talking on the phone just before the murder. Hey,
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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall, and then I'm gonna follow up with
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Speaker 1: renow defense attorney Jason Oceans. Doctor Bethany, He's not worried.
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Speaker 1: Look at him. He has practiced this over and over
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Speaker 1: and over. He has been watching the victim like a
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Speaker 1: hawk from the moment the victim got into town. This
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Speaker 1: guy knows the itinerary by heart. He knew that there
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Speaker 1: was a breakfast, he knew that that started at eight o'clock.
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Speaker 1: He knew that the victim was going over ahead of
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Speaker 1: time from the Hilton over to the Executive Forum where
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Speaker 1: he was set to speak that morning. Now, all of
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Speaker 1: this surveillance video is from individuals and businesses along the trek.
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Speaker 1: Check it out. So what I'm getting at, Dr Bethany,
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Speaker 1: this guy's cold, cool, and calculated.
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Speaker 7: This is definitely cold blooded and methodical. To use the
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Speaker 7: panel's term, Nancy. There's one thing this guy forgot to do.
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Speaker 7: He didn't watch the Nancy Grace Show, because if he had,
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Speaker 7: he would have known that there were surveillance cameras all
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Speaker 7: along that street. And that fifteen minute phone call that
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Speaker 7: makes me wonder if this is like the DC sniper
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Speaker 7: where an older, more ruthless person recruited a younger person,
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Speaker 7: or that he's acting in concert with somebody else and
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Speaker 7: that's why he's on that phone.
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Speaker 1: Hey, Lauren, it was a call fifteen minutes before the shooting,
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Speaker 1: not a fifteen minute phone call. Correct.
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Speaker 5: Correct, The phone call occurred at six thirty am.
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Speaker 1: So Doctor Bethany. But I agree with what you were saying.
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Speaker 1: But he did not ye act for fifteen minutes. It's
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Speaker 1: almost as if he's checking in because I'm wondering is
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Speaker 1: he speaking or is he listening? I can't tell. Plus
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Speaker 1: his mouth is covered right there. And I'll tell you
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Speaker 1: why Jason Ocean is joining me re Noow defense attorney
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Speaker 1: and joining us out of this jurisdiction. Who also, you
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Speaker 1: and I have walked this track before together at Jason Ocean,
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Speaker 1: So back around cour TV and hl N Day's Jason true.
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Speaker 1: The reason I'm wondering if he was listening to something
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Speaker 1: and not talking. I prosecuted an arson murder, and just
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Speaker 1: before the guy brined his mansion down and tried to
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Speaker 1: fake that his wife died in the fire from smoking elation,
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Speaker 1: he called and checked the weather channel. Jason, I was
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Speaker 1: so happy. He called and checked the weather channel to
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Speaker 1: find out if it was going to rain the day
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Speaker 1: he was setting the house on fire. So, for all
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Speaker 1: I know, this guy's checking the bus schedule or checking
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Speaker 1: was Now I know he was not on a flight.
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Speaker 1: I know he was on a bus. But every time
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Speaker 1: I'm headed to Legardia, I call or I check online
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Speaker 1: to see if my delta flight is delayed. Okay, how
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Speaker 1: do I know if he was just checking something or
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Speaker 1: actually speaking to someone. In Bethany's train of thought, what
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Speaker 1: if he calls someone it was a quick callment, Hey
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Speaker 1: I'm on the way right now, I'm walking, I just
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Speaker 1: passed Starbucks. It could be that. It could be anything NTA.
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Speaker 9: I think the theory that, you know, the potential theory
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Speaker 9: that he was directed by someone and that's why he
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Speaker 9: was on the phone is fascinating. And then also struck
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Speaker 9: by that his lack of knowledge, you know, the overall
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Speaker 9: aspect of the cameras that are everywhere. I think he
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Speaker 9: didn't plan for that. That was the one thing in
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Speaker 9: this seemingly meticulous planning that was that was not done.
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Speaker 9: But that phone call could be very critical if we
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Speaker 9: can find out if it was an incoming or an
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Speaker 9: outgoing call, and the limited technology it has in the
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Speaker 9: ability to bust that phone up.
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Speaker 1: I got to figure out how the Secret Service actually
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Speaker 1: cracks it. You'd think it would be easy, because you know,
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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum with me forensic expert. When I was researching
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Speaker 1: for my last book, Don't Be a Victim, I found
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Speaker 1: out that about I think it was seventy percent or
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Speaker 1: eighty percent, some crazy astronomical number of people still use
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Speaker 1: the factory code that they had on answer machines, or
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Speaker 1: they do one two three four is their code, or
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Speaker 1: one one one one, or of course sixty nine sixty
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Speaker 1: nine that's no tried and true, or let's see lucky
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Speaker 1: numbers that they come up with, like seven seven seven seven.
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Speaker 1: It's so predictable. But then you got somebody like this
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Speaker 1: who's uh, half smart, and he's probably got some bizarre
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Speaker 1: code on his cellphone the burner. You know how long
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Speaker 1: it took them to crack Alex Murdog's final They had
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Speaker 1: to bring in the Secret Service to do it.
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Speaker 10: Exactly means you look at that phone call could have
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Speaker 10: been something as simple as he called in seek to
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Speaker 10: work because he knew he wasn't gonna make it. Who
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Speaker 10: you can call it? Six forty five am is a
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Speaker 10: very small group of people, So it could have been
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Speaker 10: he's checking the bus schedule because he's leaving that morning
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Speaker 10: and wants to make sure that's smart.
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Speaker 1: It's smart smart. Wait, you just you just really gave
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Speaker 1: me clue, Cheryl, Who are you going to call at
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Speaker 1: six o'clock in the morning?
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Speaker 11: Okay?
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Speaker 1: Not very many people.
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Speaker 10: Okay, go ahead, because if you call your mom or
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Speaker 10: a sister or something like that, you're going to scare
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Speaker 10: the day like that of them. So it's got to
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Speaker 10: be somebody that's obvious. So you can leave a message
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Speaker 10: for somebody because you know they're not at work at
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Speaker 10: you can check the bus schedule. What is interested in
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Speaker 10: that is I am his other messages, what he wrote
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Speaker 10: on the shellcasing the threat before the murder, the fact
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Speaker 10: that he would choose New York and not the victim
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Speaker 10: poeme state why not shoot him at any red light
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Speaker 10: going to work?
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Speaker 1: Oh, Cheryl, Cheryl, you just gave me another tidbit. Hold on,
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Speaker 1: I want to tell everybody. At first, we were led
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Speaker 1: to believe that the bullets were engraved in some way
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Speaker 1: with Deny defend deposed. We now know it was written
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Speaker 1: with black sharp which tells me even more. Do you
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Speaker 1: know that you can get a handwriting sample off of that?
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Speaker 1: Not that I think police are going to need a
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Speaker 1: handwriting sample when they've got fingerprints in DNA, But you
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Speaker 1: never know what might click with the jury. What about it,
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Speaker 1: Cheryl one hundred percent.
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Speaker 10: But again it tells you he took extra time to
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Speaker 10: leave a message on shellcasings. He took extra come to
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Speaker 10: get the monopoly money. That's a message. Shooting him in
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Speaker 10: New York City the morning of that meet and was
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Speaker 10: a message. He could have shot him anytime in his home,
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Speaker 10: stated a red light, but he didn't well.
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Speaker 1: CEO's and pr Guru's toast the healthcare industry's huge record
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Speaker 1: breaking profits from twenty twenty four. Luigi Mangioni sitting behind
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Speaker 1: bars facing the death penalty.
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Speaker 2: The suspect was in a McDonald's and was recognized by
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Speaker 2: an employee, who then called local police. Responding officers questioned
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Speaker 2: the suspect, who was acting suspiciously and was carrying multiple
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Speaker 2: fraudulent IDs as well as a US passport.
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Speaker 1: First, I want to go out to our dive expert.
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Speaker 1: I'm curious about the search in the lake at Central Park.
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Speaker 12: The New York Police Department dive team is called into
21:54
Speaker 12: action after the discovery of the backpack near Hexer Playground.
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Speaker 12: The divers are seen trawling a Central Park pond behind
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Speaker 12: an area cordoned off with police tape next to Bethesda Fountain,
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Speaker 12: in a body of water known as the Lake near
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Speaker 12: Central Park boat House. The NYPD has been searching Central
22:09
Speaker 12: Park since the Gunmo was seen escaping on an ee
22:11
Speaker 12: bike into the park. Police have not yet recovered the
22:13
Speaker 12: distinctive gun used in the shooting, and it's unclear if
22:16
Speaker 12: officers recovered any evidence from the water.
22:19
Speaker 1: Joining me special guest Ben Dobrian Virginia Beach Emergency Medical Services,
22:25
Speaker 1: also the Dean of Professional Services at Virginia Wesleyan University.
22:31
Speaker 1: He is an expert diver and he is actually a
22:35
Speaker 1: dive instructor.
22:36
Speaker 11: Well, I do a lot of police diving also and
22:38
Speaker 11: just into emergency diving. And so I'm looking at this
22:41
Speaker 11: on Google Maps, and it's a relatively closed area, so
22:44
Speaker 11: that makes it a lot easier than having to go
22:46
Speaker 11: into the ocean or you know, a great lake, or
22:48
Speaker 11: the chestbea bay, So it makes it a lot easier
22:50
Speaker 11: for the divers. It's also I just looked it up,
22:52
Speaker 11: it's only four to six feet deep, so that also
22:54
Speaker 11: makes it a lot more simple to do a dive operation.
22:57
Speaker 11: But what they could be doing is they're could be
22:58
Speaker 11: looking for anything that they can find. And one thing
23:01
Speaker 11: that your listeners and watchers need to understand is anything
23:05
Speaker 11: that exists above water exists underwater. People use it as
23:08
Speaker 11: a garbage dump. We find you name it, bikes, washing machines,
23:14
Speaker 11: shopping carts, so there's a lot of debris. The more
23:16
Speaker 11: people that are around, the more people use that as
23:18
Speaker 11: a dumping ground. But there's two things that I imagine
23:20
Speaker 11: they're looking for just listening to the different news reports
23:23
Speaker 11: and listening to you. They're looking for the firearm obviously,
23:26
Speaker 11: but that telephone also, they're looking for that. You know,
23:29
Speaker 11: those are both very small items that are relatively easy
23:32
Speaker 11: to discard, and one of the things that if you
23:35
Speaker 11: find an item like that, you're gonna have to recover it.
23:37
Speaker 11: Evidence recovery is the same underwater as it is above
23:40
Speaker 11: water from the police perspective, but the one thing we
23:43
Speaker 11: have to keep in mind is that it's in a
23:45
Speaker 11: different environment. Evidence above water is in air, so all
23:48
Speaker 11: if you do is keep it in the air. But
23:49
Speaker 11: evidence that's recovered underwater you have to recover it with
23:52
Speaker 11: the water. If you take it out of the water,
23:55
Speaker 11: things start to break down relatively quickly. When I'm talking
23:57
Speaker 11: about specifically is fingerprints if you take something out of
24:00
Speaker 11: the water, and fingerprints can last for about a week underwater,
24:04
Speaker 11: so the clock is ticking. But if you remove whether
24:07
Speaker 11: it's a firearm or the telephone or any piece of evidence,
24:11
Speaker 11: you're going to want to take it out of the
24:13
Speaker 11: water and just bring some of the local water with
24:15
Speaker 11: it and then bring that to your forensics office and
24:18
Speaker 11: then they're going to drain the water and then do
24:20
Speaker 11: all the magic that they do to get the fingerprints
24:23
Speaker 11: off of it.
24:23
Speaker 1: Okay, Ben Dobwin is joining me, not only Dan Professional
24:27
Speaker 1: Services at Virginia Westley, and he is a dive instructor
24:30
Speaker 1: and a police diver. Now, Ben, you just taught me
24:34
Speaker 1: something I didn't know. Number One, when items are taken
24:39
Speaker 1: out of the water, you have to preserve them in
24:43
Speaker 1: preferably the ambiant water the water in which they were in,
24:48
Speaker 1: because the moment they hit the air, it starts to degrade.
24:52
Speaker 1: For instance, fingerprints. Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,
24:57
Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star
25:00
Speaker 1: of a hit series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan.
25:03
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to you about the gun, but
25:04
Speaker 1: I'm going to follow up on what Dobrain is telling us. Yes,
25:08
Speaker 1: prints are preserved underwater because prints, fingerprints are based on
25:14
Speaker 1: the oil in the body oil water. Get it? You
25:17
Speaker 1: can explain better than me, Go ahead.
25:19
Speaker 13: Yeah, Our fingerprints come about as a result of the
25:22
Speaker 13: discharge of the fatty lipids that we have in the
25:25
Speaker 13: pores that surround the print that's left behind. Remember, we
25:30
Speaker 13: don't have fingerprints on the tips of our fingers. We
25:32
Speaker 13: have friction ridges that leave behind fingerprints. So in this
25:36
Speaker 13: particular case, we believe that this is a weapon that
25:42
Speaker 13: has a magazine in it, Nancy. So if you have
25:44
Speaker 13: a magazine, that means that you're going to be pressing
25:48
Speaker 13: down on the rounds as you're loading the magazine in,
25:52
Speaker 13: and also you're touching that surface of the magazine. The
25:56
Speaker 13: magazine is this then fitted into a cent the grip
26:01
Speaker 13: of this weapon and it's kind of in a protected
26:03
Speaker 13: space there. So what Ben is talking about is right
26:06
Speaker 13: on the money. You have this protected space. If you
26:09
Speaker 13: can keep this in uh in the water that it
26:13
Speaker 13: comes from and take that into the lab, they can
26:17
Speaker 13: get around that weapon pretty quickly and raise any kind
26:20
Speaker 13: of latent prints that might be there.
26:22
Speaker 1: You did that so eloquently, Joe Scott, I would have
26:25
Speaker 1: just said, you know, like oil and water don't mix.
26:29
Speaker 1: That's exactly what I'm saying here.
26:31
Speaker 13: That one more thing about it, Yeah, you think about
26:38
Speaker 13: you know, Ben had mentioned how densely populated, and all
26:42
Speaker 13: of us have been to Manhattan, how densely populated this area.
26:46
Speaker 13: This guy and pay very close than you on I'm
26:49
Speaker 13: about to say this guy, if he did this, he
26:52
Speaker 13: ain't the first person to think about dumping a weapon
26:54
Speaker 13: into that lake, all right. So they have a herculean
26:58
Speaker 13: task at hand here dealing around, dealing in this filthy
27:04
Speaker 13: water where they're going to be using their hands, crawling along.
27:08
Speaker 13: How many other weapons are in there. Just because you
27:11
Speaker 13: find a firearm merged doesn't mean it's the firearm that
27:15
Speaker 13: was used.
27:16
Speaker 1: Ben, I want to follow up with you on this
27:19
Speaker 1: is a great thing to throw at Jason Ocean's when
27:22
Speaker 1: we come back. But this guy did so much planning, Ben,
27:27
Speaker 1: but I bet he didn't measure the depth of this
27:30
Speaker 1: lake and has no idea even though it's big, it's
27:35
Speaker 1: twenty acres, I guarantee you he didn't know that it
27:40
Speaker 1: was just four to six feet deep.
27:41
Speaker 11: And I just found that Google. And if you go
27:44
Speaker 11: a little bit further north, it looks like there's the
27:45
Speaker 11: reservoir in the park and that's forty feet deep, So
27:48
Speaker 11: that is significantly deeper. I mean it's obviously you can
27:51
Speaker 11: dive that. It just takes a little bit longer to
27:52
Speaker 11: get down and get up. But four to six feet
27:54
Speaker 11: is super easy. If they find something, they can just
27:56
Speaker 11: pop their head out of the water and look at it.
27:59
Speaker 11: And what he did said is we've done training dives
28:01
Speaker 11: in local lakes where we have found multiple guns. What
28:05
Speaker 11: we weren't looking for. I mean, we're just doing a
28:06
Speaker 11: training dive and we found guns. I found a flint
28:08
Speaker 11: lock pistol. I wasn't looking for one time, because you know,
28:11
Speaker 11: in a populated era of people think, oh if I
28:13
Speaker 11: if I discard a firearm in this lake, nobody will
28:15
Speaker 11: ever find it. Well, you know it's hard to see,
28:17
Speaker 11: but if people are looking for it, they're gonna find it.
28:20
Speaker 11: You know, the New York City Police dive team is
28:22
Speaker 11: one of the most respected in the world. If it's
28:24
Speaker 11: in that little area there, they're going to find something.
28:33
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Luigi Mangioni sitting behind bars
28:42
Speaker 1: facing the death penalty death buy needle this as he demands,
28:47
Speaker 1: I want a laptop. Waen waen waen? What that's right?
28:51
Speaker 1: Mangione's laptop request is now up to the jail after
28:56
Speaker 1: the judge Anow says the judge has no problem with it. Hmm.
29:01
Speaker 1: Maybe Emanngioni can better communicate with all of his fans
29:04
Speaker 1: sending him money and sexy pictures of themselves. But right now,
29:08
Speaker 1: Emanngioni's request to get a laptop behind bars is up
29:11
Speaker 1: to Brooklyn's Metropolitan Detention Center the MDC, as he awaits
29:16
Speaker 1: trial in the murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson.
29:21
Speaker 1: His lawyer's proposing he gets a specifically configured laptop that
29:25
Speaker 1: would only allow him to review case materials. Right, and
29:30
Speaker 1: did he doesn't have a phone. Okay, let's just stop
29:35
Speaker 1: right there and remember Brian Thompson bleeding out on the sidewalk.
29:41
Speaker 1: You think he thought of his two little boys, maybe
29:43
Speaker 1: his wife. That morning, this is what happened, laptop and
29:50
Speaker 1: glitzy party at Gustavino's. Be damned. A man napped in
29:55
Speaker 1: western Pennsylvania in the Altoona area at a local McDonald.
30:00
Speaker 1: He has now been arrested on charges relating to a gun,
30:06
Speaker 1: sources telling us it was a so called ghost gun,
30:09
Speaker 1: a gun that has no serial number that is often
30:11
Speaker 1: put together with a kit. The parts of the gun
30:16
Speaker 1: purchased or obtained separately, a ghost gun and a silencer,
30:22
Speaker 1: along with a hand written manifesto attacking the healthcare industry. Wow,
30:28
Speaker 1: it's joining me right now is expert Tom Smith, NYPD,
30:34
Speaker 1: detective thirty years and the star of the gold Shields podcast.
30:40
Speaker 1: Tom again, thank you for being with us. We've learned
30:42
Speaker 1: a lot about the gun. At first, it looks like
30:46
Speaker 1: it's been manipulated with a homemade silencer on it. We
30:51
Speaker 1: are now understanding that is not a homemade silencer. That
30:56
Speaker 1: this is a weapon that is often used by narians
31:00
Speaker 1: to put down that's nice word for it, animals. The
31:04
Speaker 1: magazine is in the grip, and when many people thought
31:09
Speaker 1: that it was jamming and he was clearing it after
31:12
Speaker 1: each shot, which I thought he did really calmly and methodically.
31:16
Speaker 1: We now know it may be a bolt action that
31:19
Speaker 1: has to be manually cycled after each shot. That changes things,
31:24
Speaker 1: Tom Smith.
31:24
Speaker 8: Yes, it does, because now he knows he's proficient in
31:27
Speaker 8: that weapon, knowing every time he fires it, he's going
31:30
Speaker 8: to have to chamber around. And if I could show
31:32
Speaker 8: you real quick, this is a glock, not the same
31:35
Speaker 8: weapon that was used, but but similar functioning. Every time
31:39
Speaker 8: he fires that weapon, he'd have to click it like
31:42
Speaker 8: this in order to chamber around to fire the next round.
31:45
Speaker 8: And the thing about him is he knows the weapon
31:48
Speaker 8: because he knows that's coming. It's not a surprise to him.
31:51
Speaker 8: So he fires around, has to clear it, fire another round,
31:54
Speaker 8: clear it, to chamber around each time. And he knows
31:58
Speaker 8: the weapon and he knows that is coming and has
32:01
Speaker 8: to do that, and that's why he stays kind of calm.
32:04
Speaker 8: Any other criminal I've ever dealt with in New York City,
32:08
Speaker 8: what's a weapons jams, They throw it away, they run.
32:11
Speaker 8: He knows exactly how this weapon is being used.
32:14
Speaker 1: Okay, for once, the movie's got it right, Tom Smith.
32:17
Speaker 1: Because in the movies you always see the person jam
32:19
Speaker 1: the weapon and they just throw it or they throw
32:22
Speaker 1: it at the person they're shooting at. Here when you
32:26
Speaker 1: look at the video, he's walking toward the victim. I
32:31
Speaker 1: guarantee you, Tom Smith, this guy practiced probably at a
32:36
Speaker 1: gun range.
32:37
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, and you probably have practiced with that weapon, because,
32:40
Speaker 8: like I said, there's a big difference when you're viewing
32:43
Speaker 8: this whether someone's panicking or anticipating the movement he's doing.
32:48
Speaker 8: He knows what he has to do to fire that weapon.
32:50
Speaker 1: You know, I want you to explain one more time
32:53
Speaker 1: for novices out there about the bolt action. We now
32:57
Speaker 1: don't believe the gun was jamming. Everybody believe it was
33:01
Speaker 1: a bolt action that has to be manually recycled after
33:06
Speaker 1: every shot. Could you explain that and demonstrate one more
33:08
Speaker 1: time please, Tom.
33:10
Speaker 8: Yeah, this is a nine millimeter weapon and the magazine
33:14
Speaker 8: port is in here just like you mentioned, it's at
33:16
Speaker 8: the bottom of the handle. So once a round is fired,
33:19
Speaker 8: he has to manually clear that round to chamber another
33:23
Speaker 8: round in order to fire it. He'll fire it again
33:25
Speaker 8: and do the same thing over and over again. So,
33:28
Speaker 8: like I said, he's very aware of how that gun
33:31
Speaker 8: he's used and what he used to do to fire.
33:34
Speaker 1: You know another issue, Tom Smith, and I'm going to
33:36
Speaker 1: bring everybody back in in just a second. But Tom,
33:40
Speaker 1: another feature of this particular gun that is traditionally used
33:44
Speaker 1: by veterinarians to put down animals is it has a
33:51
Speaker 1: very quiet shot, very quiet shot. And the gun we're
33:56
Speaker 1: talking about has a long as we saw, could you
34:01
Speaker 1: hold yours up again as a very long barrel like that?
34:07
Speaker 1: This one even seemed a little bit longer than yours.
34:10
Speaker 1: And that can be confused because it looks like a silencer,
34:15
Speaker 1: but it's not.
34:16
Speaker 8: It's a long weapon and easier to aim because you
34:20
Speaker 8: have more of an angle of your target in front
34:23
Speaker 8: of you. So, like I said, he is very aware
34:26
Speaker 8: of how this weapon is used and what it needs
34:28
Speaker 8: to do to fight.
34:30
Speaker 1: Is this gun is a specialized gun. This guy practiced
34:35
Speaker 1: and practiced, and he had everything planned out. You know,
34:38
Speaker 1: he practiced with the murder weapon. He didn't just trot
34:41
Speaker 1: over to Connecticut and buy a gun and then use
34:44
Speaker 1: it the next day. That did not happen. Think of
34:47
Speaker 1: the mindset here. This is a gun he brought with
34:49
Speaker 1: him on a bus, didn't get on a plane because
34:52
Speaker 1: he couldn't get through TSA with a gun for Pete's sake.
34:55
Speaker 5: And.
34:57
Speaker 1: The airlines know who you are, They had your picture,
35:00
Speaker 1: they have you every three feet in the airport. He
35:03
Speaker 1: didn't want that. He wanted to travel with his gun.
35:07
Speaker 1: What criminal that's practiced and practiced and planned and plan
35:10
Speaker 1: was to use an aligen gun.
35:12
Speaker 8: Well, it's hard to trace. That's why if you're using
35:15
Speaker 8: a normal weapon with a serial number and so forth,
35:18
Speaker 8: it's easily traced, whether you find it in a month
35:21
Speaker 8: or a year. This we have no idea whether there's
35:24
Speaker 8: any serial numbers on it, whether there's any distinguishing markings
35:28
Speaker 8: on it. So it could be very benign in the
35:31
Speaker 8: in identifying it. And that's why he paid.
35:34
Speaker 1: What I'm saying, doctor Bethany Marshall, is that this guy
35:37
Speaker 1: did not just go into a gun shop and buy
35:40
Speaker 1: the gun just before the murder. If he planned this
35:44
Speaker 1: methodically to get to Manhattan and to carry out this crime,
35:47
Speaker 1: staking out the scene the moment he got there November
35:50
Speaker 1: twenty four to ten pm, he didn't go to bed.
35:53
Speaker 1: He went to this location where the forum was going
35:57
Speaker 1: to be held. He didn't buy a new gun. I
36:03
Speaker 1: don't think I think he brought his preferred weapon with
36:06
Speaker 1: him after practicing for hours on end.
36:08
Speaker 7: This guy is upper middle class. This guy has money,
36:12
Speaker 7: He has disposable money, and he had access to a
36:15
Speaker 7: weapon in a professional environment. This is not somebody who
36:18
Speaker 7: goes to a gun shop with a fake ID and
36:21
Speaker 7: tries to skip the background check and gets a gun.
36:24
Speaker 6: This is a man who knows this weapon.
36:28
Speaker 7: This is also a man who has researched where this
36:31
Speaker 7: CEO is going to be.
36:33
Speaker 14: Early reports on the shooting of Brian Thompson pointed to
36:36
Speaker 14: a silencer being used or a modern version of a
36:39
Speaker 14: rare World War two gun. The investigators found themselves looking
36:43
Speaker 14: into a Connecticut gun store they believe may have sold
36:46
Speaker 14: the weapon. That lead did not pan out, but now
36:49
Speaker 14: Chief Detective Joseph Kenny says they are looking into the
36:53
Speaker 14: use of a veterinary gun being used as the murder weapon.
36:56
Speaker 14: Kenny says the weapon is normally used on farms and
36:59
Speaker 14: ranches and an animal needs to be put down. The
37:02
Speaker 14: animal can be shot with this type of weapon that
37:04
Speaker 14: doesn't cause a large noise.
37:08
Speaker 1: Welcome back. In the last hours, a man nabbed at
37:12
Speaker 1: a local McDonald's. The twenty six year old taking into
37:16
Speaker 1: custody on gun charges, apparently had a ghost gun, a silencer,
37:22
Speaker 1: multiple fake IDs, and a hand written manifesto attacking the
37:28
Speaker 1: healthcare industry. It's not just this moment. This moment is
37:33
Speaker 1: the culmination of thousands of law enforcement man hours like this.
37:39
Speaker 15: Amid speculation that the shooter traveled to New York on
37:41
Speaker 15: a bus that left from Atlanta, NYPD officers have traveled
37:45
Speaker 15: south for part of their investigation. APD confirmed through a
37:49
Speaker 15: statement that its officers are assisting the NYPD investigators, whom
37:53
Speaker 15: arrived in Atlanta on Saturday. Sources say they are searching
37:57
Speaker 15: through video from the bus station in town and to
38:00
Speaker 15: others along the route to New York City. Officers are
38:03
Speaker 15: working to find a name from tickets purchased for a
38:06
Speaker 15: November twenty fourth Greyhound trip.
38:09
Speaker 1: He noticed, the investigative reporter said, looking for a name,
38:13
Speaker 1: I guarantee you it's not going to be his name.
38:16
Speaker 1: Let me just say that the security and verification procedures
38:20
Speaker 1: at the bus station a lot less stringent than it
38:23
Speaker 1: is at the airport. He could have gone in with
38:25
Speaker 1: any fake ID and gotten a bus ticket under a
38:28
Speaker 1: fake name, just like he had a fake ID that
38:31
Speaker 1: he got out of Jersey, just like he used a
38:33
Speaker 1: fake ID when he checked into that youth hostel. And
38:37
Speaker 1: speaking of the youth hostel, Lauren Colin joining the investigative
38:40
Speaker 1: reporter and star a primetime crime on YouTube, Lauren, much
38:46
Speaker 1: was made of him flirting with the receptionist. That's not
38:49
Speaker 1: what happened. We now know that to check into that hostel,
38:54
Speaker 1: and it's not just at a hostel. That's where they're
38:56
Speaker 1: doing it. Fancy hotels too. When they say, you know,
38:58
Speaker 1: we need some ID, look at them. The next time
39:01
Speaker 1: they ask you that, they look back up at your face. Right. So, yeah,
39:06
Speaker 1: there was a little flirtation. You can see him smiling
39:08
Speaker 1: right there. That's about ten thousand dollars worth of orthodontia
39:12
Speaker 1: on that mouth right there. But that's another can of worms, Lauren. So,
39:16
Speaker 1: I don't know that the clerk was flirting with him.
39:21
Speaker 1: She very well may have said, pulled down your mask.
39:23
Speaker 1: I got to make an ID. I mean, this is
39:25
Speaker 1: not the ritz, okay, right right, and you're correct, Nancy.
39:30
Speaker 5: I did visit the hostel, and everybody working there was friendly,
39:35
Speaker 5: not overly friendly. Something I noticed was that there were
39:40
Speaker 5: multiple cameras throughout the lobby of the hostel. There were
39:43
Speaker 5: cameras outside of the hostel as well, so my understanding
39:47
Speaker 5: is they most likely have multiple angles of this guy,
39:51
Speaker 5: of this shooter. I also visited the businesses surrounding the hostel.
39:56
Speaker 5: I went inside to a local bodega. I went inside
39:59
Speaker 5: to a dunkin and they informed me that they not
40:02
Speaker 5: do any sort of talking about what they know to
40:05
Speaker 5: anyone but the NYPD, but also that they turned over
40:09
Speaker 5: footage as well. So I believe that NYPD is going
40:13
Speaker 5: through all of the footage they have right now, which, look,
40:16
Speaker 5: it's gonna take some time. This is not gonna happen overnight,
40:19
Speaker 5: but I think there's going to be a lot more
40:22
Speaker 5: and stills being released of this guy and what he
40:25
Speaker 5: did during his time in New York before the shooting.
40:28
Speaker 1: Straight out to you, Cheryl McCollum, let's look at this guy.
40:31
Speaker 1: Who is he? Based on everything we know right.
40:34
Speaker 10: Now, Nancy, I think one thing that's imperative that everybody's
40:38
Speaker 10: not mentioning is when you talk to the clerk at
40:40
Speaker 10: the hostel. If this were my case, the first thing
40:43
Speaker 10: I would have asked her is does he have an accent?
40:47
Speaker 10: And that's why I think again, they are focused on Atlanta.
40:50
Speaker 10: They know where the bus originated, they know what he
40:53
Speaker 10: sounds like. If he's from here, they're gonna know it.
40:56
Speaker 10: The other thing about that weapon, remember we have three words,
41:01
Speaker 10: which means three possible showcasing. So that gun either jams
41:06
Speaker 10: and we have an unspent or we have three spent,
41:09
Speaker 10: which means he missed one.
41:11
Speaker 1: Possibly a ghost gun, a silence, sir, fake IDs, and
41:17
Speaker 1: a handwritten manifesto attacking the healthcare industry. Sounds like our guy.
41:24
Speaker 1: But what else led to this detainment in Pennsylvania? To
41:30
Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall joining us for now it psychoanalyst way in,
41:33
Speaker 1: doctor Bethany, what's your take on it? Who is he?
41:36
Speaker 6: Nancy? This guy is upper middle class, he's educated. He
41:40
Speaker 6: knew to do this hit.
41:43
Speaker 7: At the healthcare conference because he's sending a message. If
41:46
Speaker 7: he did it at a traffic stop or at the
41:48
Speaker 7: victim's home, it would not send the message. The scribbling
41:52
Speaker 7: on the ammunition he caught that from researching internal documents
41:59
Speaker 7: at insurance and companies and citing words that employees or
42:04
Speaker 7: claims processors use to deny claims. I am going to
42:09
Speaker 7: guess that he had a family member who has denied care,
42:13
Speaker 7: and because of that denied care, the family member died
42:16
Speaker 7: and he cannot get over it. So this is although
42:20
Speaker 7: he looks like a street thug on you know, at
42:23
Speaker 7: first glance.
42:23
Speaker 12: He is not.
42:24
Speaker 1: He's got a square chin, perfect teeth, wax between the eyebrows,
42:32
Speaker 1: eyes going slightly down at the outer edges. He can
42:37
Speaker 1: change a lot, but there are some things he can't change,
42:41
Speaker 1: like his fingerprints and DNA.
42:43
Speaker 13: Joe Scott, Yep, you're absolutely right. Those are unique to him, Nancy.
42:49
Speaker 13: And here's one other thing. I did a little digging
42:51
Speaker 13: one of this this weapon that they keep referring to,
42:54
Speaker 13: that's the veterinarian euthanasia weapon. They believe might be a
42:58
Speaker 13: what's referred to as a State six brand weapon. My
43:03
Speaker 13: research revealed that there are essentially, I think either four
43:07
Speaker 13: or five locations in the metro area where these can
43:12
Speaker 13: be specifically purchased. And I think that if they believe
43:17
Speaker 13: that that's what this is and that he transported it,
43:19
Speaker 13: I think you're on the money here. Relative to getting
43:22
Speaker 13: on a bus with this thing, he may have picked
43:24
Speaker 13: it up down there at some point in time, and
43:28
Speaker 13: it's not a very efficient weapon for doing the task
43:30
Speaker 13: that he was trying to do. So I don't know,
43:33
Speaker 13: maybe he was trying to you know, he's not going
43:36
Speaker 13: to draw attention to himself, like when you buy a
43:39
Speaker 13: suppressor separately from a weapon perhaps, and it's not very
43:44
Speaker 13: efficient because you have to you lose your site picture
43:47
Speaker 13: every time you have to rotate that bolt on the
43:50
Speaker 13: back of that weapon, which is what he's doing. He's
43:52
Speaker 13: spending it. I think that many of the answers that
43:56
Speaker 13: we're looking for are probably going to rest as well.
44:00
Speaker 13: And this is something that we will hear a lot about,
44:02
Speaker 13: I believe, with United Healthcare and their chief security officer,
44:06
Speaker 13: who was actually hired back in August of twenty twenty three,
44:10
Speaker 13: I want to know what she knows. I want to
44:12
Speaker 13: know what her assets know within that business. Are their
44:16
Speaker 13: letters that have been written, are their lawsuits that have
44:20
Speaker 13: been filed relative to what doctor Bethany mentioned about healthcare
44:25
Speaker 13: claims that may have been blown off or maybe they
44:27
Speaker 13: didn't receive what they wanted. But trust me, the security
44:31
Speaker 13: apparatus within that company is going to be working on well.
44:34
Speaker 1: MANGIONI can enjoy his laptop and the insurance pr jurus
44:40
Speaker 1: and CEOs can enjoy their champagne. I will look forward
44:45
Speaker 1: to the jury trial of Luigi Mangioni. Goodbye friend,