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The Voice of God and the Word of God · Red Couch Theology

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Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Red Couch
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Theology Podcast. This week we cover sort of two
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major topics. 1 is sort of the Holy Spirit and the Holy
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Spirit's relationship to prayer. And how do we know when God's
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speaking and what is that that experience like?
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And how do we know what he's saying to us?
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And then the second major component that we talk about is
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the nature of Scripture. What's Scripture trying to talk
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say to us? What's its nature and what's it
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trying to accomplish? And why is it so difficult to
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understand at times? And even where do we start?
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So if those questions interest you, that's this is the show for
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you. Let's dive right in.
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Hello, hello. And I'm in the dark.
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Wow, welcome to the right couch theology podcast.
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No, it's fine. I need to be in the dark.
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I'm I'm fine, I'm fine. I'm just tangential to this
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podcast. We have Jessica Russ joining us
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today because she taught Alpha last night and I did.
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This podcast has been taken over by Alpha.
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The Red Couch Alpha Podcast. Interestingly, the color of this
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couch is very similar to the branding color of Alpha, which
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we planned five years ago before we just ever did an alpha class.
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Before that had even been a conversation.
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So with the nonsense part of our show out of the way, just
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joking. There's going to be way more
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nonsense than this. Today.
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We actually have two topics to cover.
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We didn't get any questions about your sermon, which means
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you answered all the questions. Covered it, covered it.
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Done. Problem solved.
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Well done, Sir. But we actually have some
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questions about prayer and we have which was from Alpha a
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couple weeks ago. And then we have some questions
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or we don't have any direct questions, but the conversation
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that that we have. And maybe you could pull some
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questions from the table of discussions for how and why we
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read the Bible, one of my favorite all time topics.
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So we don't. Have to do that right now.
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So, yeah, but there's the preview, there's where we're
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going to head. We're going to talk about prayer
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and the sort of mysterious nature of prayer, which we
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talked a little bit about last week, but we didn't have these
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questions in time. Last.
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Week's show so. Which maybe we'll be answering
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questions. That we already.
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Answered about the Bible next week.
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That's true. What this is what we're finding
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the the short turn around is a little bit different.
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Is that how that works? Why am I even hosting?
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I should have just let the two of you do this.
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I'm making this No, no, no, no but.
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Then when we do it by ourselves, no one can hear what we're
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seeing. And you get attacked by Wasps.
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And you get attacked by Wasps. Apparently neither of us are
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able to handle technology. There I do have this distinct
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memory. I don't this show didn't air.
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Yeah, it didn't air because the Wasp episode, but I remember
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logging in to view it. Do you guys remember the show
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Funniest home videos? Yes.
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I just remember this this show where there's they're chatting
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away in silence because the audio isn't on, and then
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suddenly everyone jumps out of their chairs and starts running
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around the room away from Wasps. Did you catch the part where I
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was swinging a Bible around trying to kill a wasp?
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And the fluorescent lights are still on.
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Yes. So it's like lit poorly, no
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sound, and everyone's running around running away from killer
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Wasps. It was a great episode.
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It would have done a good job on.
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And the thing we deduced is Aaron can't take vacations.
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Incorrect. You guys have done the host show
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without me. You have.
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I know. Yeah, I think only like 1
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successfully between the two of us.
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Yeah, we do have a standing request for you and train us on
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the podcast. Yes, that's been on there since
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the last incident. Oh interesting, I I didn't put
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that request in. No, I put the request.
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In Alex, Alex is like, we just won't have a show.
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It's fine. On that note, I think we should
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dive in to the question and actually this first question is
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maybe less around prayer specifically, more around the
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Holy Spirit. So maybe this is connected a
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little bit. All right, If the Holy Spirit is
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the agent of change, this is a sermon question.
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Look at that. You did not solve everything.
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If the Holy Spirit is the agent of change and He loves to
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partner with us, how do we know when I'm pulling too much of the
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weight and working too hard versus relying on the Holy
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Spirit to lead? Oh, that's such a good question.
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Like there's so much much nuance to that.
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So I, I have this like image that I've shown over and over
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again. I didn't show it this time,
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maybe because I just felt I'd worn it out.
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And I've usually put up two pictures of of like rowing or
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water activities. And 1 is a sailboat and 1 is a 1
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is a rowing boat. And you've got this picture of
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these guys that have just rowed this rowing race and they are
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wiped out. They're just done.
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And then on the other hand, you've got sailing, which
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actually has some very unique challenges.
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Some would say actually the techniques and the knowledge for
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sailing is considerably harder, but there's this wind power.
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And so quite often you'll get these moments where people just
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look like they are just living in joy.
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And I think it's really easy to follow Jesus with this sense of
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rowing, of just the exhaustion of it and the trying of it and
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all of those different things. And then occasionally you meet
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people, usually later in life that seem to live it in a way
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that looks a lot more say like sailing.
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So I, I don't know that there's a feeling I would encourage
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people to look for as much as a greater allowance of the Holy
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Spirit to change you. And I think that's what you see
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in some people years into faith. You're like, oh, you are really
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just humming with this thing now.
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You're just like, you know, you just just just living in the
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wind. And so I think for me, there's,
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there's something of that day by day, week by week, year by year
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to grow in those different things and say, OK, Holy Spirit,
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how can I allow you more space to move me and rely less on me?
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So I so I would say like the reality is, if you're fairly new
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to following Jesus and you're in the busy times of life, you're
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probably doing too much of it yourself.
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That's just the nature of who we are, and it's a slow, gradual
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process to get to a place where we're like, OK, I'm starting to
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step back a little bit and allowing God to work in me.
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Yeah, that's great. Any thoughts Jessica?
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I mean, my initial thought when I saw that question was it comes
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through practice and learning over time what how to just turn
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the voice of God, what the voice of God actually sounds like.
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So you can actually hear what is the spirit speaking and versus
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just like your own stuff whirling away in your head,
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which I would say primarily comes through prayer and
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actually asking God that question.
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Right. But it's not like, you know, you
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become a Christian. Well, probably for for the
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majority of people, I guess. Yeah, because everyone's story
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is a little bit different, but probably for the majority of
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people, it's not like you become a Christian and then all of a
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sudden you can clearly discern what the voice of God sounds
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like, what the voice of the Spirit sounds like, and you just
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got it from there, right? Like that is part of the process
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of growing in your faith. And I hope everyone sees these
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moments like that. I've seen at different points
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where there's almost accidental change from your, your like,
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there was a guy that used to come to the church that I was at
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in England who was a really well known soccer player.
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He was the captain of his club. And he like, his language was
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just like all over the place. Like, you know, in a way that
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like just is maybe unique to British working classes.
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And the story he told was that one day he was sad in the the
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like the big communal tub after, after a game and, and one of the
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guys just turned around to him and was like, Wesley, why don't
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you curse anymore? And like, he had to look back at
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him and he was like, what the heck do you are you talking
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about? But he just like then seen it.
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He hadn't done anything. He'd started following Jesus.
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And there'd just been almost this accidental change.
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And so hopefully those things happen to us different points
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and catch us off guard. And then other times like
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there'll be things that we're working really hard to either
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move towards and move away from. And so I do think there's parts
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that God just does. I, I read this passage in in
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Colossians actually this morning, and it really seems to
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fit in with with what we hope for people.
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This is Paul, this writer praying for the church that he's
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helped start. Carlos, See, I think we
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continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will
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through all the wisdom and understanding that the Holy
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Spirit gives. So to break that down in in more
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layman's terms, we continually ask God to show you what he
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wants through the wisdom the Holy Spirit gives to you.
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And so I think that's our prayer for people at South, for
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ourselves, that we would constantly have that journey of
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being more aware. And, and the good news is Paul
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was hoping the same thing for 1st century churches.
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So we're on the right track. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a
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challenging question because learning how to, to do that,
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it's just it takes time, it takes experimentation, it takes
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practice, all these sorts of things.
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It's interesting that a lot of the spiritual practices, so they
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like take to both parts of that question.
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How do I know when I'm doing too much and when or not enough is
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sort of the question all boiled down.
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A lot of spiritual practices are designed to help you surrender.
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It's like, you know, a lot of it's a bunch of work to catch
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the wind to just to go back to your illustration, there's a lot
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of like, it's so yeah, all the work in one sense is, is God's.
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And then we he gives us resources to help us remember,
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learn to trust practice. Yeah, to push that metaphor
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maybe further than it deserves to go.
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All the all the wind in the world doesn't help if you don't
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put sails up. Yeah, like it doesn't move you
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anywhere. I don't know.
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Yeah. I don't know why this is a
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phrase that, like, just reminded me or helped me so much when it
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comes to pastoral ministry or like as a worship leader.
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I think about this phrase a lot. I don't remember who said it to
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me. Years ago someone said that the
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idea of we can't make it rain, but we can try and make sure
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they're outside when it does. Yes, absolutely.
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Yes. You know, so like the building
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of a service or the planning of a worship set, like you can
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maybe grab some of the components.
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And that's actually where prayer is one of the most powerful ones
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to tag on. What Jessica just said is like
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we learned in Alpha when I pray. Coincidence.
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Happens and when I don't. It's like there's a there's like
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you put the the prayer is like the kindling and then that the
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the spirit can ignite and like that consistency in so many
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ways. Like there's a lot of these
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spiritual practices that that gets us, get us into the
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environment, into the awareness of the presence of God to where
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that he meets us. More consistently in those.
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Spaces yeah, I think that's that's why and I think that
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quote in Colossians to go back to that that actually seems to
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suggest that maybe we have this big drive at times to say well
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this is the thing that God is working on this is what he wants
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to change in me. And part of the wisdom is is
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knowing like sometimes that might not be the right priority
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sometimes like God might have different priorities.
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I've always noticed when I see people come to faith, I'm like,
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oh, this is what God is going to fix in you first, of course, and
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and you know, and it's it's like.
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It's the part that is most annoying to me about.
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That person, my list of priorities is really about me.
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And so I, I think somewhere knowing that that that God's
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priorities aren't always the same as as is a is a good thing
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for us, for ourselves and for other people.
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Well, and as far as like the doing too much versus not enough
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question rate, I personally always have the sense of, Oh my
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gosh, I need to like, I need my patient, I need to grow my
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prayer life. I need to be one of those people
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to wake up at 5:00 and spend a whole hour reading my Bible
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every single morning. And like that, that's not
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happening this season of life for sure.
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And you know, the list could go on and on, right?
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Like I could, I could be a better neighbor, I could be a
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better wife, I could be a better pastor.
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I could be a better, like I could be better in all the
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things, right? But that drive of I need to be
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better and do this better and work harder so God is more happy
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with me and so other people are more happy with me.
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And in theory, so I'm more happy with me is not necessarily the
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same thing as. And I'm pursuing spending time
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in the Bible because I want to know God.
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I'm spending more time in prayer because I want to know God more
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and hear his voice. I'm, you know, trying to be more
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intentional about the pursuit of justice in my community because
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I want to see God's Kingdom come right.
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Like there's a big difference in mindset and heart posture and my
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own image of myself and who God is there.
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So that might also be another place to start if you're asking
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those questions of, well, what do I do mean by doing more or
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doing enough or doing too much? Like what is the drive and
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motivation and story that I'm telling myself at the root?
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Of your question. And is that me or is that
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actually and? I think, I think that you
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touched on something that maybe for people listening is maybe
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one of the central issues, the busyness of life and you know,
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everything, seasons of life. There was a lesson I felt really
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lucky to learn really early on because around 19 years old I
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was working part time. I pushed off going to university
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to college so I could work, so I could travel, but the hours were
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more limited for some reason at this point.
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And so I had loads of time to spend with God, like reading or
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praying and, and it was beautiful.
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And then I went away to run this camp for a week where I would
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honestly say I had about 15 minutes of free alone time in
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the entirety of the week. You know, the leaders would go
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to bed at 1-2 in the morning, we'd be up at 7:00 and just
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rinse and repeat. It was chaos.
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And at one point during the week, the guy running the camp
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said Alex, just take 15 minutes to yourself.
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And it went down into this little 16th century Chapel and I
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put a little bit of music on and the experience of God's presence
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and love and care was unique to anything I'd experienced the
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whole of that year. And there was some kind of
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magic, it seemed, with me giving this little snippet I had to God
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versus me giving somewhat generously of the tons of free
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hours and no responsibility that I had.
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And so I think like I, I'd say don't try and worry about how
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much time you're engaging with God as as much as worrying like
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ACA priority I'm willing to make when I have some free time.
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I think there's just, yeah, different ways to maybe
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understanding that. That's great.
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I think so. I think that that actually
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segues relatively well to the topic of prayer, which is where
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we pivot rather than just how do we encounter the Spirit and work
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in balance with him and all that is.
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This next question has some of the the lingering aroma of the
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previous question. I'll say it that way somewhat.
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Oh, so if someone doesn't pray and has never asked for
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forgiveness of their own sins, does this mean they don't think
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that their sin is wrong? Then there's then there's guilt.
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What does it mean if people don't feel guilt or shame when
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they sin? So I I might actually split this
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question out into if someone's never prayed for forgiveness of
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sin, is forgiveness of sin possible?
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And then two, why wouldn't they feel the need to pray that
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partially and they don't have that same sense of shame or
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guilt? Yeah, it's I, I mean, I'm, I'm
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trying to read the heartbeat behind the question, like my
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guess, maybe the context behind the question.
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Like I, I, I, I have this sense that for followers of Jesus,
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there should be this growing awareness of ways in which we
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might be living out of line with the the, the way that Jesus
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calls us to live. But I do think I've certainly
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met a lot of people early on in their journey that would say,
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yeah, I have very little like realization of that.
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Like this is actually like to me, a new, a brand new thing.
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And I've generally just done what I wanted.
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And now I'm learning that the call of Jesus is to live as he
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wants me to live. And so, you know, the, the,
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there's almost this beautiful surprise when people here like,
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oh, oh, really. Like that's, that's the way that
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we're called to live. A friend of mine, and I've
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probably told this story to some of you before, but a friend of
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mine was pastoring a a small church in, in England.
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And he told me this wonderful story about this, this young
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couple that came to faith and had no real sense of what it
19:06
took, but just that they'd heard the story of Jesus.
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Something had drawn them in. But they were married and they
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were unmarried and living together.
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Yeah. And and so my friend turned to
19:18
them and said, turned to the elders and said, none of you say
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a word to them. Like if you say a word, I will
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persecute you personally. Like, but just we're going to
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wait to see what God does. And he said, sure enough, they
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were over at my house for dinner a couple of months later.
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And the, the the husband after like some, you know, small talk
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said so rich, we've been wanting to ask you a question.
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We've been reading the Bible together and it seems like from
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what we've read, we should be married.
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Like, is that right? And and he said, well, yeah.
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I mean, the view of, of Christianity has been that, that
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that sex is made for marriage, and marriage is God's call to us
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as as men and women. And the guy turned around to his
20:03
girlfriend and said, well, do you love me because I love you?
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And she's like, yeah, it's like, do you want to get married?
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And he's like, yeah, now, now again, it's this beautiful
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picture of like organic change, of this slow awareness of what
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the message of Jesus is or the lifestyle that Jesus calls us to
20:20
is. That didn't happen because they
20:23
felt guilty. It happened because an awareness
20:25
came surprisingly. So I think that's just one of
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those stories I would throw in that suggests that it's not
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always as simple as just everybody knows what they should
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or shouldn't do and constantly carries A guilt story.
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Around it, yeah, I think it feels like there's different
20:46
answers if the assumption of the person in this question.
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So Toby would say that. They're a follower of.
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Jesus trying to read the context.
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Or if, like, they're not a follower of Jesus, they're
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wouldn't call themselves a Christian.
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They've never, like, you know, claim to have made that
21:02
decision. And I'm not particularly
21:06
interested in that, right? So for the sake of conversation,
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let's assume it's someone who isn't a follower of Jesus and
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they just don't like. Part of the reason the gospel
21:17
doesn't make sense is they're like, I don't feel like I did
21:21
anything bad enough to justify all of this death stuff.
21:27
So let's let's start it from that place and then maybe we can
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answer the second version of it. So any thoughts there, Jessica?
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They don't have the same. They don't have the guilt.
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They don't. Yeah.
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Right. I mean gospel.
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I mean, I think then Alex's question or answer would be kind
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of the answer I would have of like, well, if there's no, if
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there's no context for and there is something better, there's
21:56
something different, right? There's not going to be
21:59
necessarily, or does it require there to be any kind of sense of
22:05
lack? I, I would say that there is
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still a sense that sin exists or something is wrong in the world,
22:15
even for people who don't necessarily claim to follow
22:17
Christianity or like Christianity even, right.
22:23
Like people are still willing to fight against the perceived
22:27
injustices or the sins of the world.
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What however they define that right?
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So it's not that, you know, without the gospel, there's no
22:39
sense that there's anything wrong with the world.
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But as far as like your own personal sense, like maybe
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someone would be carrying that with them, maybe not.
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I, I think we often want people to feel guilt when we're out,
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you know, when we're watching them, like, oh, you should feel
22:55
bad for the way you do stuff. And so guilt is not always the
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thing that draws people to Jesus.
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Like, like I've seen for all people to Jesus, I've seen a
23:05
desire for life with God draw people to Jesus.
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I've seen people's view of the life lived by people that follow
23:13
Jesus, draw people to Jesus. I mean, there's all sorts of
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things in that list that are different and guilt isn't always
23:20
one of them. I've often seen guilt come
23:22
later, or at least some sense of awareness of like the way that
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they've lived come later than immediate.
23:29
Yeah, yeah. And so I think that's that's,
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that's always a, a good place to to live.
23:34
I think there's some things but we assume everyone feels guilty
23:37
about that isn't universally true.
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I, I, I had an amazing conversation some years back
23:42
with a, a, a gentleman that that's involved at South has
23:47
been, I don't think he's listening.
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So I don't think it might be telling me this story anyway.
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But we were out hanging out in a specific context, and we were
23:56
also with his son. And his son just sneakily said
23:59
to him, like, you know, dad, why don't you tell your pastor the
24:02
language you use when you're working?
24:04
Because they worked in the same environment.
24:06
And he kind of looked a little bit sheepish.
24:08
There was like a little bit of a like, and he works in this very
24:12
working class environment. He owns a company where he works
24:15
with, you know, people that use that kind of language, I would
24:19
guess. And, and I think to him, like
24:22
what he felt guilty about was how I might perceive him, not
24:26
about what he was actually doing, because he kind of
24:28
carried this sense of like, Oh, this is just how we talk here.
24:32
It doesn't really mean anything. It's not angry.
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It's just like the language we use now.
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Maybe that shifts at some point, but right now where he was in
24:41
his journey, I, I could kind of understand that response to it.
24:44
You know, I, I do tend to carry this awareness that the only
24:48
people Jesus got really angry at for, for, for not being
24:52
spiritual enough with a religious leaders, you know,
24:57
and, and that there was maybe a different perception.
25:00
So I, so I always think there's this thing that people are
25:02
moving towards this life in the way of Jesus.
25:04
But at the same time, I also think that the journey that they
25:08
take to get that is very roundabout and that there's some
25:12
things that, yeah, that they'll be like.
25:14
I just don't get what you're talking about yet.
25:17
Yeah, I it's interesting. The psychology of guilt and
25:24
shame are interest. An interesting topic to to
25:29
explore is because I can definitely imagine, especially
25:33
if you've lived enough life and you're old enough, where maybe
25:37
as a kid you felt a lot more guilt and shame because you you
25:40
had a context where people were telling me, telling you don't do
25:43
this, do this. And as you get older, you do
25:46
some of the bad things and it doesn't go that bad.
25:48
Yeah, so then it, you almost become inoculated to the
25:51
outcomes of like certain behaviors and you're like, well,
25:53
it's, it's like not ideal, but it's not that bad.
25:56
And so like, it doesn't feel as shame inducing for some folks.
26:00
And if you don't have you, sometimes the, the, the, the
26:08
anatomy of shame and of guilt comes from some source that says
26:14
this is good or bad. And if you're not in that
26:17
context, if you're not a believer, then like there's less
26:19
of that voice looming over you. Ironically, that means if you're
26:24
a Christian and you're like, I'm trying to be a good Christian,
26:27
there's a higher propensity to go to.
26:30
Change. Absolutely.
26:32
Which is super unfortunate because that's not actually the
26:35
context. Of what the?
26:37
Gospel is. Right, it's really not.
26:39
So This is why I think this is becomes a very convoluted
26:43
conversation. And and so I want to make sure
26:46
we touch on the forgiveness part because they mentioned that are
26:49
they forgiven which gives some is forgiveness.
26:52
Possible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
26:53
And so, so I think I'm going to assume that there's some context
26:57
to that that's a little bit more they're a Christian that maybe
27:00
isn't living the life I think they should be living.
27:02
And are they really asking for forgiveness?
27:05
And, and I think the viewpoint of that is a little bit
27:09
different depending on whether you listen to Paul or whether
27:11
you listen to John. You know, John talks about if
27:14
you confess your sins is faithful and just to forgive
27:17
your sins. And and then then Paul talks
27:22
about how, yeah, the list of things that again, are against
27:25
you, they've been wiped out. They're done with Now.
27:29
I don't think they're actually saying different things.
27:31
I think it appears like they're saying different things.
27:34
Like I think John talks about confession as this beautiful way
27:40
of, of not restoring the relationship, but restoring the
27:44
connection in some ways or the felt connection.
27:48
I I think he's using confession in this, this word that would be
27:52
really apparent to a, a 1st century context and maybe less
27:56
apparent to us, which is saying the same as it's like agreeing
28:01
with, like actually coming to this point where you're like,
28:04
yes, God, you're right. Like I haven't lived the life in
28:09
this area that you're calling me to.
28:11
And I want to acknowledge that it's not that you're not
28:13
forgiven as much as you're not you, you don't feel connected in
28:19
that moment. And so it's almost just coming
28:21
and putting your hands up and saying, yeah, yeah, I agree.
28:26
And then you get to move on together.
28:27
It's John's way of helping people move beyond that sense of
28:32
guilt into feeling like they're living life with God in a new
28:35
way. Yeah.
28:36
And I think maybe if you were to ask, if you were to frame this
28:40
question slightly differently, it might actually help the
28:44
person who says, yeah, like, I don't need Jesus because I don't
28:48
feel the need for forgiveness. That in that if that person's in
28:51
that camp, let's just reframe sin a little bit.
28:57
Like when you use the term sin or like the moral law of the
29:02
Scriptures and these sorts of things.
29:03
Like part of the reason it becomes a little problematic is
29:06
it feels so big and so daunting that and there's like hell,
29:11
heaven and hell looming over the top of the conversation.
29:15
It's almost designed it, like, conducive to shame and guilt in
29:19
some way, shape and form. And then the person's evaluating
29:22
themselves like, well, if it's that big, I'm probably not a
29:24
part of that piece. Like I've not done anything,
29:26
Yeah. Sure.
29:28
What if you reframe? Sin is anything that is contrary
29:31
to your design. Sin is anything that doesn't
29:37
doesn't result in maximal humble human thriving for any
29:41
individual. Then ask them, have you ever
29:44
done anything that was not the absolute maximum benefit to you
29:49
and the and to all human society like like overeat or not
29:55
exercise or anything like that? They're like, Oh yeah, like
29:58
everyone. No one's perfect.
30:01
OK, then the way of Jesus is actually is just this invitation
30:07
to a lifelong journey of learning how to be the to return
30:13
to what God designed for human existence relationally,
30:18
spiritually, physically, psychologic, psychologically,
30:22
socially. And if you if you frame with
30:25
less of the like looming fear over the top of it, most people
30:30
can easily admit just quote, unquotes.
30:32
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, no one's perfect that
30:35
even the no one's perfect piece is like, yeah, that's what we
30:39
mean by sin. Yeah, what what what adds the
30:42
complexity is when we're like, yeah, but if you now you need to
30:46
go to hell because. And so then suddenly they're
30:50
like, well, no, like I'm not that bad.
30:53
Yeah, we've easily got people that are worse.
30:56
Like we've usually got a list of people.
30:57
That's that's what the writer Max Lucado gives this
31:01
illustration. Then I, I go back and forth on
31:03
like how helpful it is at times, whether it's like, you know,
31:06
whether it's how I see things completely.
31:08
But his illustration is like that people usually have this
31:11
sense of, well, I'm not as bad as this person.
31:17
And he, his illustration is like, well, yeah, that's the
31:21
sort of thing that a pig might say, looking around at the other
31:25
pig mates wallowing in the through of dirt and whatever
31:28
else that they walk in. Yeah.
31:29
Yeah. And he's like, yeah, that's
31:31
actually really fair. Like, you're actually not much
31:34
different. But if I were to say to you
31:36
like, hey, it's bedtime, are you welcome?
31:38
Are you willing to welcome one of those pigs into bed with you?
31:42
You'd say no. I have a different standard of
31:44
the way things work than those pigs do, even the very best of
31:48
them. He's probably not welcome.
31:50
Here, like the most pristine pig.
31:52
It's just not like I'm not, I'm not doing bedroom time with the
31:56
the and so he's like, there's some analogy there that doesn't
32:01
cover every detail of it, but it gives some perception of like
32:05
there is, there is who God is and then there's who we are.
32:09
And those are very different. And that the Jesus story, in
32:11
some way we don't fully understand and are constantly
32:14
trying to explain in different ways and different theories,
32:18
somehow welcomes us into that story.
32:21
Yeah, Before we pivot to the topic of the Bible, any final
32:26
thoughts on that, Jessica, the forgiveness and why don't they
32:30
feel guilt and any. No need, but.
32:34
All right, Perfect. All right, so let's move on to
32:38
last night's conversation around the Scriptures.
32:42
Yeah, the Bible's weird. I don't know if it makes people
32:48
uncomfortable when I say stuff like that, but.
32:50
The boy, yeah. I think it does make some people
32:54
squirm a little bit. Who who like or hold the
32:58
scriptures in a certain posture but.
33:01
Who are like people you work with?
33:02
No, I'm joking. Anyway, yeah, so like, what were
33:08
some of the, like, conversations that took place around the
33:11
scriptures last night? Unfortunately I wasn't able to
33:14
be at the class, so can you give us a little overview of how it
33:18
was covered? Yeah, well, the the root
33:22
question was why and how should we read the Bible?
33:27
Perfect. We shouldn't get into a lot of
33:29
those like, you know, weird questions in in the alpha
33:33
content itself, right? It was more an overview of what
33:38
is the Bible, what do Christians believe the Bible to be?
33:43
And then what are some starting points for how to engage with
33:47
Scripture? And I wrote these questions
33:51
yesterday and I cannot remember half of them.
33:53
But. One of the questions we covered
33:56
was do you, do you think that the Bible has meeting?
34:00
Like do you think that there is any kind of meaning or relevance
34:04
that the Bible could offer to, to you to your life?
34:07
And or if you believe that it does, like what kind of brought
34:12
you to that point? Oh, the first one was, have you
34:16
ever tried to read the Bible? Or if you if you do engage with
34:20
the Bible, like why and what does that practice look like?
34:24
And then the final question was, what questions do you have about
34:27
the Bible or what questions have you asked before?
34:32
Yeah. So, yeah, it seemed like it
34:35
brought us some really good conversation.
34:38
They in the alpha content, they talked a lot about how the Bible
34:42
was inspired by God and you know, God breathed is how some
34:47
translations of the verse of Timothy talks about it, but they
34:53
didn't necessarily define it more than that.
34:55
So at least at my table, we spent a little bit of time like
34:59
inspiration. It's basically this idea that
35:03
the whole Bible, the writing of it and the compilation of it
35:06
together into the Bible that we have today was guided by the
35:10
Holy Spirit. And Alpha kind of talked about
35:13
it as God is like the architect of the whole overarching story
35:18
and the individual writers are like the builders of a building
35:24
and putting it together. But God sets the plan and kind
35:26
of overseas. The whole work yeah, yeah.
35:30
So I think the the way that this this podcast can play a role in
35:38
the alpha conversation is to maybe go that next level for
35:43
people. And so I would love to to
35:46
explore a little bit of like, yeah, how deep did they go into
35:50
like how the Bible was formed and and stuff like that, like
35:53
canonization and stuff like. That in the video like almost
35:56
effing at my table, we talked a little bit.
35:59
One of the questions was like, so did it just kind of like
36:03
appear in its final form? Like how did it kind of come to?
36:06
Be such a great. Question I hopefully didn't go
36:10
too much into teaching, did it? Float down from the sky did it?
36:16
But like, I kind of got into the whole, like not in depth into
36:21
the canonization process, but you know, different books were
36:25
written at different times. And then the Jewish scriptures
36:29
formed what we would call the Old Testament formed as kind of
36:32
an accepted body of scripture that was agreed upon by the time
36:39
that Jesus arrived on the same New Testament.
36:42
Different letters or the Gospels were written at different
36:45
points. They were not all formed at the
36:48
same time and are grouped more by genre.
36:52
One of the questions that was asked last night was how did
36:57
they come up with the order of like the letters and everything,
37:02
which I I am so sleep deprived this week, you guys, my memory
37:06
recall was not good yesterday or today, so I couldn't remember
37:10
the answer to that question. But yeah.
37:13
So some of those details of like wait, so how did we get?
37:17
What we? Have and Well, if they took this
37:21
phrase out of the KJV King James Version, like, why would they do
37:26
that? Does it change like what the
37:28
Bible says then? And so we talked a little bit
37:30
about how, you know, more discoveries of the manuscripts
37:33
have been made and everything. Wow.
37:35
Yeah, sounds a fun discussion. I I think everyone at my table
37:39
is OK with. You like sharing some of these
37:41
details? Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
37:43
All right, so like, yeah, let's just do a quick a quick fly over
37:48
of canonization. Let's because you could spend a
37:51
whole course, there are whole courses on because you start to
37:55
end up talking about all of these things.
37:57
So I think in the interest of time, let's just do a quick fly
38:00
over of what canonization meant. What does canonization mean as a
38:05
word? Yeah, go for it.
38:11
No, no. I mean, it's the process of how
38:16
scripture was compiled into the Bible that we have today as the
38:20
agreed upon set of books. Yeah, yeah.
38:27
And I, I wish, if I'm honest, there's parts of me that really,
38:32
really wishes that that process had even more of like a
38:38
supernatural marker. It would, it would be a little
38:44
bit more comfy if we said there was this council and they got
38:48
together and then an earthquake happened and assigns happened in
38:54
the sky that says you nailed it. And then we could just say with
38:59
tons and tons of confidence, this is it.
39:01
And, and instead we have a, a process of quite a few years,
39:06
multiple councils, multiple streams of Christian tradition
39:10
in the early church where they were trying to determine.
39:13
And yes, they did use certain filters to determine whether a
39:19
text was authoritative or not. Some of those being like for the
39:24
New Testament, was it written by an apostle or connected to an
39:28
apostle? Or was it age?
39:31
Age of the text? All of those sorts of things?
39:33
Overwhelming use by the early church, right?
39:36
Not just this one little town has this really great letter
39:39
from Paul that they have like treasured for, you know,
39:43
decades, but no one else has heard of it.
39:46
It had to be like widespread use by the church as Scripture and
39:52
alignment with the rule of faith.
39:55
Does it align with what we already believe in claim of
39:58
Christian? And there was some
39:59
controversies, right? I mean, Revelation was very
40:01
controversial. There was a lot of questions
40:03
about like whether yeah. And so, so there's, there was
40:07
definitely senses of like, man, yeah, were were, were they were
40:14
doing what we were doing. Like it's far more like what we
40:17
do as a church today than we imagine.
40:19
They were praying and trying to listen and, and I think
40:23
somewhere, you know, that I remember going to a pastor when
40:26
I was probably 19 and I was the sort of 19 year old that really
40:30
thought about those things. And I was like, but like, how do
40:34
we know they picked the right ones?
40:36
And he was a wise guy that didn't try to get too much into
40:39
what their framework looked like.
40:41
And he said, you know, he said, now I suspect that there's some
40:47
trust required in believing that the ones we have were the ones
40:51
we were supposed to have, That if you believe that God does use
40:57
humans to navigate those processes.
40:59
Now, I think that's actually the best journey you can take to
41:02
trust that. Yeah, what we have is probably
41:04
is good enough. And, and I think that was
41:08
probably the the answer I needed in that season because it
41:11
allowed me to stop trying to intellectualize it too much.
41:15
Yeah, and I do. I do think I and I completely
41:18
understand and resonate with in my younger years of faith,
41:24
desperately wanting to hang more of my emotional faith on the
41:32
scripture itself rather than the one that the scriptures.
41:36
About. Because again, I'm going to
41:42
bring the fear of death back in to this conversation.
41:45
If if you're approaching a Christian tradition with how do
41:49
I make sure that I don't do the bad things that make me go to
41:53
the bad place and make sure that I do the good things that make I
41:56
go, make sure I go to the good place and that God lavishes good
42:00
things on me. That's very emotionally charged.
42:04
And then I need to know, just give me the bottom line.
42:08
Can I like how far can I go down this path and to and where's the
42:12
line where suddenly if I go this far, I'm a Sinner and God's mad
42:17
at me? Fill in the blank if that's what
42:20
you need out of the Christian tradition.
42:23
The scriptures are madding because it doesn't address huge.
42:28
It doesn't even address huge swaths of what human experiences
42:32
are in the modern context. It it just doesn't.
42:37
And so then instead you get this text of 2/3 or 1/3 of it's
42:43
poetry and narrative and it's like mad.
42:46
You just tell me if I is this good or bad.
42:50
And then, and that's actually how I treated the text for most
42:52
of my younger years, all the way through most, most of Bible
42:55
college. So much so that when I graduated
42:57
Bible college, I didn't know what to do with for a career.
43:02
And I was like, I don't know, like, should I become a
43:05
missionary? Should I become try and pursue
43:08
pastoral ministry in the church? Should I join?
43:12
So I had two major opportunities that had presented themselves.
43:15
And so I decided, I told my wife, OK, I've graduated and we
43:19
got to figure this out because like, they're not going to let
43:21
me keep hanging around the school campus anymore.
43:25
And so I said I'm going to go fast and pray.
43:27
And I literally just went with my Bible and I was like, God
43:32
help me find the passage that answered the question whether I
43:34
should join crew military ministry or whether I should
43:38
move back to Colorado and join this mission agency.
43:41
Why those two options? They're the only ones I was
43:43
aware that anyone was inviting me to, which is extra biblical,
43:47
by the way. And I sat down and I'm a Bible
43:51
college grad and I don't, the text isn't giving me the answers
43:55
that I wanted. And so I landed in this passage
44:01
in Romans 12. And the reason I landed in this
44:04
passage is, I mean, OK, this is going to give you less faith in
44:09
Bible college grads, but the reason I landed this passage is
44:13
I literally searched A concordance for the will of God.
44:17
This is a 12th chapter in Romans 1.
44:22
And so I, I, I searched, it wasn't a Google search at the
44:26
time, but I just searched for the will of God.
44:28
And so I'm like, I'm going to read all the verses in the Bible
44:31
about the will of God and then I'm one of them is going to
44:33
unearth the will of God for me. I believe that.
44:38
And and now it sounds comical, but I know there's people out
44:42
there that are, are struggling with this kind of thing.
44:45
So I read it because it the will of God shows him this says it
44:48
says, therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of
44:51
God's mercy, offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and
44:54
pleasing to God. This is your true and proper
44:56
worship. Cool, good tracking.
44:57
And then is this the verse that the my search hit?
45:02
Do not conform to the pattern of the world, but be transformed by
45:05
the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test
45:08
and approve God's will, his good and pleasing perfect will.
45:12
And I said God, this is super unhelpful.
45:16
All right, so Step 1 to discovering God's will don't be
45:19
conformed to the pattern of the will the world.
45:22
Step 2, be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
45:27
Step 3. Then you're going to be able to
45:29
figure out the will of God. And I was like, so Colorado or
45:33
Illinois, like this is the question I asked and you gave me
45:38
and, and I in that moment, this is where the Holy Spirit and
45:42
prayer comes in. In that moment, I, I kind of
45:45
sensed maybe the Spirit's nudge saying, so which one of them
45:49
allows you to not be conformed to the world and be transformed?
45:55
I said both he says, have at it. And I was like, seriously, yeah,
46:04
I, I was at a loss. So the reason this is sort of
46:10
circle back around to like how the scriptures work.
46:12
The scriptures are more interested in, in transforming
46:16
us like this text talks about than in giving us answer
46:20
guidelines to what's good, what's bad.
46:22
Should I shouldn't, shouldn't I? How do I do this?
46:25
How do I do that? It's it's a design for a
46:28
different function. So that was a very.
46:29
And if you look like, like how Paul in his journeys in Acts
46:34
moves around the world, it's very arbitrary until it isn't,
46:40
right? I mean, he wanders from this
46:42
place to this place. He goes to this town.
46:43
He goes to this town. And then occasionally God says
46:45
to him, don't go there. And then something happens where
46:48
there's, you know, he has a dream of a man saying, come over
46:51
here. So he goes over there.
46:52
And then the rest of the time he's like back to going here,
46:55
going there, like trying to have some sense of like.
46:58
And, and so I think we we like for me is a pastor who's moved
47:03
to different states. I've tried to maintain this
47:06
sense of like, oh God, where are you calling us now?
47:09
And then there's also been this sense of like choice and like,
47:13
well, where do you want to go? And, and I think that's OK as
47:17
well. And so I think, yeah, it's not a
47:20
fortune telling book. I, and this is no surprise to
47:23
anyone. Alex is about to quote Frederick
47:26
Beatner, but he's brilliant. So I do quote him a lot.
47:29
But he has this idea in one of his books about reading the
47:33
Bible. And he's very like you, Aaron,
47:36
in that he's got some honest confessions around around
47:42
Scripture. So he's got like, he starts off
47:44
with his list of why not to read the Bible.
47:47
You know, he talks about how confusing it is in different
47:49
places. There are other reasons not to
47:51
read the Bible. It not only looks awfully dull,
47:54
but some of it is the prophets are wildly repetitious and
47:58
almost never know when to stop. There are also all the begats.
48:01
There are passages that even Moses must have nodded off over
48:04
like the six lung chapters in Exodus, you know.
48:07
And so like he's, he's got all these different reasons and then
48:10
he gets to his reasons for reading it, which are just
48:15
beautiful and how to read it, I guess more specifically.
48:18
And like, you know, he says some things that we would probably
48:20
say to people like don't just start at the beginning and and
48:24
get going, but but read some of the higher points, perhaps like
48:29
some of the gospels, some of the histories, all those different
48:31
things. But but he's like, he's got this
48:35
bit at the end out of this long spiel, which is the only bit
48:39
I'll read. And he says, he says this
48:43
finally. If you look at a window, you see
48:47
flecks of dust, the crack where some kid threw a Frisbee at it
48:51
and broke it. And if you look through a
48:53
window, you see the world beyond as well.
48:56
And he said somewhere, that's what we're doing when we read
48:59
the Bible like this, things that we'll see and we'll have all
49:01
sorts of confusions over. There's bits that will be dull
49:05
and hard to get through. Like the last part of it, Exodus
49:08
and all of Leviticus. There's bits that sort of leave
49:12
us with more questions than answers.
49:14
And if we'll allow ourselves to look past those things, we'll
49:19
also see the world as God made it and, and the invite of
49:23
relationship to him as well. And so the the invitation is to
49:26
focus more on the second piece than the first piece because
49:31
that's what a window's for. And so I just, I just love the
49:34
way he kind of pulls people into that invite to it, to
49:37
acknowledge the stuff you talked about, but to acknowledge the
49:41
brilliance and beauty of it as well.
49:44
Yeah. Now you gave a message a while
49:46
back about Scripture and I know you were sort of tying some of
49:52
that into how you presented the content in alpha.
49:55
Could you give like a quick sort of maybe high level overview of
50:02
of some of that like? So my sermon from last July.
50:06
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a fresh on your mind,
50:09
right? Yeah, I skipped in preparation
50:12
for this message. Perfect.
50:14
So the theme of that message in July was why as follows, Jesus,
50:21
should we find an anchor in Scripture, right?
50:26
Which is a similar root question right to why should?
50:30
We read, Yeah. Why?
50:31
Why I read the Bible with a little bit of how in both rate
50:37
so we're actually landed both messages like last night for the
50:41
brief bit of teaching at the end of Alpha that we've been adding
50:46
to our experience with alpha. I also tried to learn more in
50:50
the why with and here's some tips on very first steps or
50:56
maybe next steps. But I mean if if the story of
51:04
Christianity that it presents of this loving relational God who
51:12
created the universe and created each of us and sees and knows
51:17
each of us and desires to be known by us.
51:23
Not just a one way street but an interpersonal relationship.
51:26
If that's why he sent Jesus like God in the flesh to open a
51:33
pathway for that relationship. And the Bible is inherently the
51:38
story of what that means, who that is the story that we are
51:45
part of. If the Christian story is true,
51:49
who Jesus is and his way and his heart, like that's why you read
51:56
the Bible, to find out who God is, to find out who Jesus is and
51:59
what he's done, and then in light of that, to find out who
52:04
we are and who he wants us to be and who he wants this world to
52:08
be. Right.
52:09
What I mentioned last night is like, if you're just reading the
52:13
Bible because it's a, you know, book of like, good suggestions,
52:17
principles for life and philosophy and stuff, like we
52:20
have a million other options that we will read that, you
52:25
know, honestly might be like easier options, right?
52:28
And not just a book form. Like there's podcasts for that.
52:31
There's TV shows for that. There's, yeah, Internet videos
52:38
for that, right? If that's all it is, like it's
52:42
just one of many and it may or may not fit.
52:45
But if it is what it claims to be and that it's unfolding the
52:50
story of existence, really. Yeah.
52:55
All things passed, all things to come, right?
52:57
With the new heavens, the new earth, that's the only place
53:01
you're going to find it. Yeah, I love that.
53:04
And I think to connect back to our first part of the
53:08
conversation, the Holy Spirit. And this is a very subjective
53:13
statement, I get it. And I think there's some textual
53:15
evidence that hints at this, but it it seems like the Holy Spirit
53:21
and the text are faithful to one another to the end of getting us
53:28
to know Jesus. It's like, it's like the Spirit
53:31
has proven throughout human history, throughout church
53:34
history, that hit one of his favorite methods to help us get
53:38
to know the person of Christ is to leverage his voice in the
53:43
text to his the people of God. And that's so then when we get
53:48
to the top or the language of God breathed.
53:51
That's kind of what we're getting at is that I don't know
53:56
if I said it in this conversation or another
53:57
conversation, but there's like the kindling.
54:00
Maybe it was this conversation. The scriptures are function like
54:04
like this material that the spirit breathes life into.
54:09
Was that not this conversation? Maybe it was like the previous
54:13
conversation I was in. I we're killing it today anyway.
54:18
Continue with your. Metaphor so like it's the these
54:22
words the spirit breathes on continuum and ignites with life
54:29
giving force and energy. And part of the reason we hold
54:32
to the Canon that we do, and this feels very intangible, is
54:37
that all throughout church history, this text continually
54:42
does that and proves to be faithful to transform the a
54:47
person or the people of God. And that is evidence of itself
54:52
that the Canon has life. Yeah, yeah.
54:54
And I've, I've. So I've told this anecdotal
54:56
story more times than I can. Yeah, it's very individual
54:59
about. It's not even like prescription.
55:02
It's just description. Something happened to me.
55:05
But I had a friend in his 70s, I think late 60s, early 70s.
55:10
He was like, yeah, I read the Bible five times a year and like
55:14
16 chapters a day. And so I was like, ha, if he can
55:18
do it at that age, I can definitely do it.
55:20
I think at the time I was like 30 to 33 and I was like, like, I
55:25
am an amazing reader or something like that.
55:28
I'm just going to read it 5 * a year as well.
55:30
So I just started reading 16 chapters a day, like just
55:34
motoring through. And in that season, the number
55:42
of people that came up to me and were just like, dude, what is
55:47
going on with you right now? It feels like you're just living
55:50
in a different place to anything that I've ever seen you live
55:54
before. Like what?
55:56
What are you doing different? And I'd say to them, I don't
55:59
know how to explain this to you, but I've been reading the Bible
56:03
a lot and and you kind of look like people are look at you with
56:08
this, like, OK, but that happened more times than I can
56:14
count now. It's really embarrassing to have
56:17
to say. I'm now 43.
56:19
So in the 10 years since then, the number of times I've been
56:22
able to create this much space to do that has been rare.
56:28
Yeah. At the same time, my own
56:30
experience has been, oh, wow, like it does change you when you
56:35
read it. Yeah.
56:36
Like it's almost like the guy that had been pastoring at that
56:39
point for 12 years didn't see that coming.
56:41
And my favorite part of your that story, which you've told me
56:44
multiple times is the starting place might have been pride.
56:48
Totally. But the text is like, terrible.
56:51
The text is like, I see why you came here.
56:53
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm gonna work anyway.
56:55
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the reason that resonates
56:58
with me is that's how I started reading the Bible, too.
57:00
Yeah. I wanted to impress a girl who
57:02
knew the Bible well in in youth group.
57:05
And so I started reading the Bible.
57:07
She never paid attention to me, but the text changed me.
57:10
You know it's. Such a terrible reason for doing
57:14
it. Yeah.
57:14
And yet somehow in the midst of it worked.
57:18
And then I just had to deal with the pride that I felt when
57:20
people came up to me and said, wow, you really have changed.
57:24
Why? Acknowledging I had nothing to
57:26
do with it. Jessica, please tell us you had
57:27
a bad motivation to start reading the Bible for yourself.
57:31
I. Mean, I think it was I think I
57:33
mean, you know, I just I already admitted to this motivation and
57:36
doing a lot of things right of the well, you know, I'm a
57:39
Christian, so I guess I should read the Bible, right?
57:42
Yeah, it was definitely you should, but also not the worst
57:45
shit ever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
57:48
We're telling you, you should probably read the.
57:49
Bible. Yeah, absolutely.
57:53
So I liked Alex's illustration. Why she's not.
57:58
He used the you quoted someone else about the window pane and
58:02
the. So yeah.
58:03
My favorite person. You heard me, Frederick Meteor.
58:05
I I. Your favorite person's not your
58:08
wife. I mean, my favorite non knowable
58:11
person, although bizarrely he lived 45 minutes from me in New
58:14
York and I never went to visit him because I didn't know.
58:17
When I found out, I was really sad because I think, you know,
58:20
he was probably in his late 80s. He would probably have loved
58:23
some young ministerial companionship, but I just didn't
58:27
know he was around something like this.
58:28
He was not. But.
58:29
Yes, my my favorite spiritual person beyond my immediate
58:34
circle. Yeah, so something I
58:37
encountered, we don't have a ton of time left, but one final
58:41
question I'd like to address because I started this whole
58:44
conversation about the Bible with the statement of the Bible.
58:47
Yeah, that's a weird book. What do we do and why?
58:53
Why would God give us a book like this to help us to get to
58:59
know Him? Couldn't he have given us
59:02
something that's a little bit clearer and less riddled with,
59:07
like the illustration you said, broken glass and window panes
59:10
that are dirty? And because sometimes when I
59:13
read the Bible, I feel like it's that what, what's he up to?
59:18
Is that? Is that a flaw with the Bible
59:21
that it's less clear than we would like?
59:27
I'm leading the Witness because I have answers myself.
59:29
So, so I, I would, I would say, I think the Bible feels
59:37
especially like that characterization when we have
59:41
this really strong idea of what it should always be doing.
59:45
So like, because we carry this sense of like, oh, the Bible's
59:49
always supposed to be giving me rules for life.
59:53
Oh, the Bible's also always supposed to be.
59:55
Giving me the moments of life changing experience.
59:59
Oh, the Bible's always supposed to be giving me authoritative
1:00:02
statements. Oh, the Bible's always supposed
1:00:04
to be. Telling me whether Illinois or
1:00:06
Chicago or whatever, I mean, Illinois or Colorado, yeah.
1:00:09
And actually, like I think other people have said, like one of my
1:00:15
other favorite authors, John Golden Gay, talks about this a
1:00:17
lot, he said. Like actually the thing that the
1:00:19
Bible is doing most often is it's being a faithful witness to
1:00:23
what happened. Like so.
1:00:25
So there's times it's authoritative, sure.
1:00:27
There's times it does those other things, sure.
1:00:29
But actually the thing it does most is it reminds us of stories
1:00:34
of where God has moved before. And in terms of that, it
1:00:38
actually does a pretty great job of reminding us of what's
1:00:42
happened before. Like the people in the books are
1:00:46
not much different to us. Like Moses gets angry, David has
1:00:50
an affair. Let you go through all this
1:00:52
list. And they're all people that are
1:00:53
looking for God who, like are broken people or messy people.
1:00:59
And it reminds us simply that messy people are able to
1:01:02
continue to pursue and know a God who is different to them.
1:01:08
And so if that's all it does, that seems a pretty wonderful
1:01:10
thing. And like the medium of of a book
1:01:14
is beautiful because it's been available throughout history.
1:01:18
It's easily shared. It has all of these beautiful
1:01:20
elements to it. And so actually like when you
1:01:24
try to find. The book nerd.
1:01:25
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:01:27
When you find a way of it being different, you're like, oh, it's
1:01:30
actually a pretty great way to communicate all of those things.
1:01:34
Yeah. Any thoughts?
1:01:37
Yeah. I mean, as far as the is it a
1:01:39
flaw question, I think there are many, many, many people who
1:01:41
would say, yes, that's a flaw. And that's part of the reason
1:01:44
why it's hard to trust the Bible or engage with the Bible, right?
1:01:48
Yeah. I mean, I would agree with
1:01:50
Alex's assessment or quote. Of.
1:01:53
It's not just like, well, you know, here's the here's the
1:01:56
rules, right? We already just talked about
1:01:58
that. Like that's if that's all you're
1:02:00
reading the Bible for, you have other options.
1:02:04
Yeah. The reason to engage with the
1:02:05
Bible is because it's the story of who God is, who Jesus is,
1:02:09
what he's done, what that means, right?
1:02:12
And I do think like if it's a mirror, that also requires us to
1:02:19
wrestle with the brokenness of the world's, wrestle with our
1:02:22
own brokenness in a way that can get very uncomfortable, right?
1:02:27
I mean, if you talk to most people like it did a giant poll,
1:02:31
it seems like most people like Psalm 23 and like Philippians 4
1:02:36
and like, don't be anxious about anything.
1:02:38
Like we'll be joyful. And all the things like the
1:02:41
really clear, beautiful, like peaceful, joyful passages,
1:02:46
right? Those are what we want to
1:02:47
gravitate to of the here's the positive, here's the clarity,
1:02:52
here's the ideal version of things that it seems like when
1:02:58
we're looking at religion as a concept, those are the kinds of
1:03:03
things and it seems like religion is supposed to promise,
1:03:09
right? Here's the answer.
1:03:10
Here's the clarity. Here's the this problem solve.
1:03:15
Here's the good life. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:03:18
A lot of the Bible isn't that. It's the brokenness, It's the
1:03:22
struggle. It's the Psalms of lament.
1:03:25
It's the David lashing out in anger against other people in
1:03:30
the Psalms of lament, right. Yeah.
1:03:34
It's the Paul and Peter arguing with each other.
1:03:40
It's revelation. It's it's those difficult,
1:03:43
challenging things which is more of what our human experience is.
1:03:48
Totally. But that's not what we think.
1:03:51
Religion quote, UN quote should. Offer.
1:03:53
Sure. Brilliant.
1:03:54
Yeah, when we let go of some of our agenda for the text and let
1:03:58
it have the agenda, some of the some of the problematic bits of
1:04:01
it fall away. Yeah, the the text is meant to
1:04:06
transform us. And sometimes that means there's
1:04:10
this, there's this principle, that sort of origin, who's a
1:04:13
really early church father in the early, early church era.
1:04:19
He talked about when you run into a passage that's confusing,
1:04:24
that's partially by design, the nature of the text to make you
1:04:29
linger long enough to for it to transform you.
1:04:34
And so his recommendation is, and I again, I'm not going to be
1:04:37
able to quote him at all. This is but his recommendation
1:04:42
is when you run into a problem text, encounter it, engage it,
1:04:47
think about it for a bit and then like sort of put it on a
1:04:50
shelf in the tapestry of all of the rest of scripture and then
1:04:55
revisit it from time to time. And as you live with this, like
1:04:58
the text is sort of like this tour guide for your life with
1:05:02
God. It's a it's a companion for your
1:05:05
life with God, kind of like the spirit is it's it's all of these
1:05:10
things. And then as as you continue read
1:05:12
and read more and read more and read more out through a
1:05:15
lifetime, suddenly one of those things on the shelf.
1:05:19
It's like, wow, I get it now. So yeah, that's not uncommon at
1:05:26
all. He's he's trying to say we went
1:05:28
on over an hour. We go over an hour every week we
1:05:30
do. I thought almost.
1:05:32
Every single week. I was just giving you a cue that
1:05:35
maybe. That I should shut up.
1:05:38
All right. Perfect.
1:05:38
I don't. Think that was the cue?
1:05:41
It was, though I didn't have anything more to say.
1:05:44
Perfect. All right.
1:05:45
Well, thank you all for tuning in and we will.
1:05:48
We'll see you next week and we'll have another guest next
1:05:51
week on the show as we talk a little bit more about the Holy
1:05:55
Spirit, I believe. I love it.
1:05:57
See y'all bombshell. Bye.