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S5 E19 - The Brutal Murders at Hinterkaifeck Farm · True Crime and Wine Time

• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Yep. Oh there we are. There, we are. Hello, Hello everyone,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: and welcome to another episode of True Crime and Wine Time,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: where we dive into the most jaw dropping true crime
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: story as well something sipping something smooth to take the
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: edge off, because I'm going to need that today. I'm
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: your host, Lama and the lovely Terry true Crime couldn't
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: be here tonight because she is all celebrating her birthday
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: with her besties. So I hope you're having a great
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: time Terry, hold on the four down, and if you
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: happen to see her, tell her happy birthday, because yesterday
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: it's her birthday. But because she couldn't be here, I
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: brought on fantastic this way. I think it is Lady
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: and Gray. Some of you may have seen her in
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: chat as she's one of our lovely mots nice also
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: one of our case researchers, including tonight's case. She'll always
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: research and I'm like, hey, I have this bizarre, weird
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: foreign story. Let's tell it. I'm like, Lady and Gray,
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: what do you think about this? And you may have
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: seen her in one of my many other shows, Couch Confessions,
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: where we talked about her jury duty experience, but before
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: she begins, everybody, poor glass, lock your doors and let's
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: uncork the truth behind some of the darkest of crimes.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: How you all, I'm a little nervous, so please be
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: patient and forgiving, especially when I butcher the German words
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: with my hill billy accent, because it's gonna happen. I'm
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: feeling and tonight we're going to do some traveling as
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: this case happened one hundred and three years ago, time
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: craving artists and then around halfway around the world. The
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Hindri Kaifak family massacre is considered one of the most
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: gruesome and puzzling unsolved crimes in German history.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: That it is and it was definitely one of those
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: where as soon as I saw it and I was like, hey,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: I think you're gonna lick this one, and she said, yes, yes,
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: sign me up. I got that one. But before we begin,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: let's say hi to our chat friends real quick. We
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: got dope meditations, cough cop, Hello and welcome Polly Prissy Pants. Hi, Hey, Groy,
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: there's the Mama Lama herself. Hope you're doing good, Mama Lama. Yes, yes,
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: I know, it's been it's been a busy week to
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: the LA since the winery, I can say words, this
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: is what happens when you don't do shows for like
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: a week and a half. You're like, how does my
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: mouth work? I don't know. But anyway, before we begin, guys,
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: I think you kind of know the drill. Okay, if
• 2:55
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• 3:30
  Speaker 1: download on some of them, as it helps our little
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: pod get noticed. Also, last weekend, Terry Truchime and I
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: performed live in Marion, Ohio to a packed audience and
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: we covered the case of Andy Chapman and Joey LaBute Junior,
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: and it was an absolutely wonderful experience. We've been talking
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: about this for like two months and it finally happened.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: It was wonderful. I know, I can't wait to do
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: another live show again. So if any of you would
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: like to see True Crime and Wine Time perform live
• 4:11
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• 4:15
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• 4:20
  Speaker 1: list of venues to Terry at Terry t E. R
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: I at tcwtmedia dot com. Because we're ready to go.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: I get one live show up under my belt, and
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: I'm like, let's do more. Something I thought I would
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: never say, and probably was still saying up until like
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: five minutes before we went live last Saturday, just me
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: in a corner with Terry like I don't want to
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: do it inside anyway, it was oh thank you. It
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: was a wonderful time. It was it was amazing. But
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: with that, why don't we get into what we're drinking tonight?
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: I ain't? Shall we? So I somehow still have a
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: few bottles of this Kirkland signature Vada BOBINDI. I don't
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: know how to say it. I am look it up
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: because it's Kirkland signature, because we're classy. Anyway, it's for specco.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: It's been It was left over from our live show
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: last weekend. Again somehow, I don't know, because we're of
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: us drink a lot, but I also have put some
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: simply strawberry juice. On this unbearably hot summer day.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm drinking. This is gonna be interesting. A non
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: alcoholic beverage. It's called you can see it. Yes, I
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: call it liars.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: I was I was gonna looks like liars to but.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: I call it liars because it's lug, it's large, and
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: it's not real gene, right, but it I'm not sure
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: exactly what's in it, except I know it has natural
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: flavors and botanicals and you have to refrigerator and as
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: an expiration date because it's not really alcohol, right. But
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: it does make a really nice refreshing drink on another
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: hot day. It's a hot day in Tennessee too.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: It's a hot day everywhere. From when I heard you,
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: I heard our southern friends. It's like one hundred and
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: twelve down there.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: It's hot.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, thank you, no, thank you, Well you guys.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: Let's get into this, shall we. So what's interesting about
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: this case is that the German police remember this all
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: happened one hundred years ago. Okay, but the German police
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: have already admitted that they know who the suspect likely was,
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: except they won't tell us. It's like cute, It's not cute.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: I think it's very weird considering that it was over
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: one hundred years ago, and I think it's safe to
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: assume at this point all potential suspects would in fact
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: be dead. But here we are, and tonight we're going
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: to go through the crime. We're going to explore the
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: mini theories and potential suspects, and we want you to
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: leave a comment on our video or podcast if you're
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: listening to Report podcasts, and let us know what you
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: think or who you think may have committed this egregious crime.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: And by the way, before I turn over to Lady
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: and Great, you guys, this kind of reads like a spooky.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: Story, just to let you know it is.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: It's like it's spooky.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Halloween time is so let's set the scene for you guys.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: The form at hinter Kathak, this is in the Bavarian
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: area of Germany, was built around eighteen sixty three and
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: was about a mile north of Kafak Germany and was
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: bordered by very dense and fields, so it was a
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: very rural area. And the nearest neighbor farmers by the way,
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: was about a third of a mile away from this
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: house the property. And I will say it's creepy and
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: it would be perfect for a Netflix psychological thriller. I
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: mean you just wait, agreed. In eighteen seventy seven, the
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: matriarch of the story, Cecilia, married a man named Joseph
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: Ossam and they were in the hinter Kaifak farm by
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: his father and together they had four children, but only
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: two of them survived, Infancy Martin and Cecilia the second
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: or is it junior.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: That's a good question.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And Joseph died of pneumonia in eighteen eighty five,
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: and then at the age of thirty five, Cecilia the
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: elder began with laship with Andreas Gruber, a twenty seven
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: year old farm hand, and the two married in eighteen
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: eighty six.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: It's quite the age difference mm hm, but okay. Well
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: after their marriage, Andreas owned fifty percent of the worth
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: of the farm, which was probably his motivation for marrying her.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: It appears that the customs at the time did not
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: permit a subsequent marriage to take the property of the
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: original heirs of said property, in this case Joseph Asam
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: and Cecilia's two children. So it doesn't work like how
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: we're used to Basically they get nothing. It's now Cecilia
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: and Andreas right.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: Well, Andrea Cecilia would go on to have three children
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: of their own, but only Victoria survived infancy. Now, there
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: were many rumors about this family we'll discuss later tonight,
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: and one of the first ones is that their other
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: two children died by starvation and neglect. But there's no
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: documentation of this, it's just a rumor. This seems unlikely
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: to have been anything nefarious, as it wasn't a rare
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: occurrence back in around the turn of the century where
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: children didn't make it to adulthood and the youngest baby
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: died on the day it was born. So maybe Andrea's
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: is off the hood with this rumor.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: And this rumor.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: We got our.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: Many of the rumors seem to have been fueled by
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: Andreas's character because he was just he was just not
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: a nice guy. It wasn't great as id knowing to say,
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Andreas was extremely abrasive not very social and he had
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: an explosive temper, and he abused his wife and his daughter,
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: as well as Cecilia's children from her first marriage. And
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: of these children, Joseph and Cecilia the second left the farm.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: But it's unclear if they left because they grew up
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: and sorry their own lives, or if they left to
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: get away from Andreas. So I can't believe them if
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: they did.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: No, it's possible that the son left when he got drafted,
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: because in Germany that was a big thing. You had
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: to do your military service and if you wanted to
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: get married later on in life, you had to prove
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: you served when that was a big thing. But I
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: don't know that it was the case. Now let's talk
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: about Victoria Andrea Sinsys, who's only child together, who made
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: it to adulthood. She also lived on the farm. Victoria
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: was beautiful, smart, very outgoing and about in her religion.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: She attended church twice a week and was a member
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: of the choir. She had seemed to have good friends
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: at the church and by all appearances the picture of
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: a well adjusted social girl. But behind closed doors, he
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: was leaving a nightmare. Yeah, her father, Andreas was abusing her,
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: and at age sixteen, he began an incestuous relationship with her.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: We're not gonna like Andreas. No is not great.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: No.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: But Victoria did confide in a neighbor, Lorenz Shitlindenbauer, Yeah,
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: who will become a very important person later in the story.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: But she confided in him about the abuse from her father,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: and Lorenz later went to the police and told them
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: that it was a well known fact that Andreas had
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: a relationship with his own daughter. Lorenz told them that
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Victoria told him how it all started when she was sixteen,
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: and that Victoria had told his first wife she was
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: unable to stand the sight of her father because he
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: was always forcing himself on her. This guy, I know.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: In April nineteen fourteen, Victoria married Carl Gabriel. She was
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: twenty seven, he was twenty six. The groups were considered
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: well off, and Carl's family wanted to improve their social status,
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: so they encouraged the marriage in order to move on up.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: They knew that when Victorian Karl married, she would inherit
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: the farm as sort of a dowry, and the Hendrik
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: eifect farmeddn't in fact passed to Victorian Carl, but nothing
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: really changed, Andres and Cecilia still lived there and worked
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: on the farm. However, all was not peaceful, But then
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: how could it be peaceful. Daddy dearest was still there,
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: don't you imagine?
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: No, Andreas was extremely jealous. Weird, but he was extremely
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: jealous of the relationship between his daughter and her new husband,
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: and he began to act out in petty ways. He
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: had picked fights and bully Carl, like not giving him
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: any food. And Carl was like, f this noise and
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: went back to his parents. But his parents were all like, no,
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: we want that farm, so you need to go back
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: and try to make it work. Weird but okay. However,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: after four months of marriage in August nineteen fourteen, Carl
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: was out done finished. But was he really? We'll see
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: more intrigue about Carl later in this story. Everyone of
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: these pictures just looks so pissed all the time.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: There's no joy in that Bavaria.
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: Is there?
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: No beer? I don't know?
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: Well, so Carl, hy Terry, Sorry, the girls in the.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: Birthday girls here, Hi, Terry, have a good time.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Tell me about Carl.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Carl, Well, he thought he came up with a really
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: good plan, so enlisted in the army. But yeah, world
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: War War, World War one, the Great One had basically
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: just begun, so it's a big telling that he would
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: prefer to take his chances in war rather than remain
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: married to Victoria and live at hinter Kaifak, despite the
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: fact that Victoria, Wow, what a mustache on that guy.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: Is it a requirement, you know, in the army. I
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: don't know. But Victoria had just told him she was pregnant,
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: but he went anyway, So maybe he questioned the baby's paternity.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Who wouldn't knowing about Andres and Victoria, and that's why
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: he said, I'm out of here, right, he'd left.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: He high tailed it out of here, out of there. Well. Interestingly,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: some unknown person filed a complaint either in nineteen fourteen
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: or nineteen fifteen against Andreas Kruber and his daughter Victoria
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: for their incestuous relations, and at that time Victoria would
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: have been pregnant or would have just given birth to
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: little Cecilia. Yes, this is the third one who was
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: named after her maternal grandmother. If you haven't noticed, everyone
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: in the story seems to have the same names, so
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: if their kids will refer to them as litl to
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: keep track because it's everybody has the same name.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: It's yeah. So a big question is who was this
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: unknown person that filed the complaint in nineteen fourteen or fifteen?
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: Was it Karl Gabriel and or his family. Was that
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: the neighbor Laurence Schlittenbauer, who knew what was going on.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: It's unclear if Laurence is the person who filed the
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: complaint in nineteen fourteen nineteen fifteen, or if he only
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: reported the question of a relationship when he is actually
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: documented to have filed a complaint in nineteen nineteen, which
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: we will get later to in the story, and it's important.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: It seems the most likely source of this earlier complaint
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: in nineteen fourteen nineteen fifteen is a maid who left
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: the employment of the Groovers after she witnessed Andreas abusing Victoria.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: I think that line sounds about right. Oh, look at Terry,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: True crime, super sick Terry.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: She's doing that because she's making us feel better, because
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: she's gone skinny dipping. She said that.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna say it's her skinny dipping. Kind yeah, played
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Matt Terry, and I wouldn't put it past her. She
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: is everything you think she is in person, which is
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: fabulous and extra in all of the best ways, all
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: of the best ways. She's exactly the same, and I
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: love her for it. She's off to drink even more. Well,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Happy birthday, thanks babe. Be safe, all right, don't go
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: chasing black rat snakes. All right. So now this next
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: part of the story really pisses me off. But it
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: was a different time than so regardless of who it
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: was that reported them, the court found Andrea's and Victoria
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: guilty and both of them served one year in prison.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, that's right. She served time too, although
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: there is a conflicting report that Victoria only served one month.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Maybe her pregnancy or having just given birth was the
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: reason she only served one month, though we don't know.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: It's unclear as to why Victoria was also charged and
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: imprisoned along with Andreas, although local officials were in charge
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: of prosecuting fornication laws. Yeah, I just I don't understand why.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: But okay, I suspect it was probably due to her
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: age at the time, because she would have been around
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: twenty seven years old, and perhaps the court thought she
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: was a willing participant because Obviously, course of control wasn't
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: a thing in nineteen fifteen, because I'm gonna go with no.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go with either. Well, after Victoria was
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: released from jail, after her month or her year, I
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: tend to think it was probably the month, because after
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: she got out she started looking for a husband with it.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Before Andreas was released from custody in nineteen fifteen, this
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: was a valid plan for her and probably her her
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: only valuable option to escape her father's unwanted attention. And
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Victoria didn't look too far, and she tried to begin
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: an affair with that neighbor, Laurence Schlittenbauer. Laurence was thirteen
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: years older than her and he was wealthy in his
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: own right, but there was a slight problem. Reportedly, he
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: refused her advances due to his marriage and children. So
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: if at point you're wondering if this is a German TELENOVELA, yes,
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: yes it is.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Oh boy, I don't think he did, but whatever. However,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: after his wife, who was also named Victoria, which I
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: would say is weird if apparently there were more than
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: five names back then. Anyway, Victoria died in nineteen eighteen,
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: and he actually did quickly take up with a life Victoria,
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: maybe a bit too quickly. I'm questioning his honesty about
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: his claim of refusing Victoria previously anyone else, because I'm
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: just saying, I'm also curious how the wife died. You know,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: it is the time of the Spanish flu and whatnot,
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: so maybe that's the reason. Or is this something more nefarious.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, the farm is technically victorious, so that could
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: be a motive to kill your wife and marry her.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying, I'm just saying, do we know how
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: Victoria died?
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Well? Lauren soon proposed marriage to Victoria, and she agreed,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: as this would provide her an escape from her father
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: and additional financial security as well. However, when Laurence approached
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Andre's and said he would only marry Victoria if in
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: Victoria both totally ended their insistuous relationship, Andreas replied that
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: he would think about it. Really, Daddy DearS wants to
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: think about it.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: Gross, Just this whole conversations gross. But before Andreas could
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: give Lorenz an answer, Victoria and now she was pregnant
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: with Lorenz's baby. Don't don't know that's right, She's pregnant again.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: And Lorenz was not happy as he very well knew
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: that Andreas, her father, could be the father of that baby.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: And according to Lorenz, though he and Victoria only had
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: sex five times, search it takes exactly one time, one time, sure,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: whatever you have to tell yourself, like.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: To convince himself that you had to be more than once?
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, well, Laurence. So, Laurence knew that Victoria and
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: Andres had been continuing in their relationship and openly accused
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: of accused Andreas paternity of the baby, his own grandson
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: child at this time. In return of this accusation, andre
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: started demanding child support from Lawrence and forbade Lawrence and
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: Victoria from marrying because yes, in those days in Germany,
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: a parent could do that, especially if there's property involved.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: And uh I also found out that the town council
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: had to approve the marriage too, So what do you
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: think about that?
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: Well, and this is a very different kind of game,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: but it's most it's kind of close. We'll see, we'll
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: see what kind of the weddings go. It's never a
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: good time, well you guys. Little baby Joseph was born
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: in nineteen nineteen, and Andreas kept pushing Lorenz for child
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: support as well as for Lorenz to accept paternity, and
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: the Lorenz was like, nope, not unless Victoria was allowed
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: to marry him. Okay, I guess. But also I didn't
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: even know that, like child support was even a thing
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: at this time in history. I found that to be
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: very interesting.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's probably wasn't called child support, right, it
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: is the same thing. Yeah, And so I found it
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: weird too. I was like, well, okay, I don't know,
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: That this kind of seems like it could be a
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: Moury episode.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the DNA just says, you.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: Are I hope it's Lorenza's.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Little baby Joseph was born in nineteen nineteen, and
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: oh did you I'm sorry, You're right, I'm sorry, I
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: forgot the colors confused. Later that year, Lawrence had had
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: enough of Andre's nagging and went to the authorities about
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: little Joseph and told him that Andreas was the father. Now,
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: remember Andreas started being convicted of this crime before so
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Andres was again arrested, but this time Victoria wasn't. I
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: guess they didn't want to do children on welfare, right,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: you know, Andreas was in prison for about two weeks,
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: but was released when suddenly Lawrence retracted his statement.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: It turns out the groupers offered Lorenz two thousand marks,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: which was about like sixty dollars in nineteen nineteen, which
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: is a lot of money. Okay, it is for nineteen nineteen.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: At this time, this modest sum could be buy a
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: tailored suit or two, a bicycle, or even a modest
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: used motorbike because those were very popular during this time.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: But Andreas then okay. Andrea's then demanded eighteen hundred marks
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: be returned back to him for a lump sum child
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: support payment and requested that Lorenz sign over paternity and
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: make Andreas the legal guardian of Joseph.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: Well, what I know what they I have whiplash from
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: these people. Oh my gosh, I mean I just do
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: just like well, I mean, it's like then I thought
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: Andre's wanted Lawrence to take responsibility, and now he's wanting
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: him not to.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: And but if andre is oh to make him a
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: legal legal guardian, not necessarily the father, but like I
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: would think you wouldn't want to put your name on
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: that birth certificate when people keep saying, hey, he's banging
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: his daughter, you know, like.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: I think legally that uh she put Lawrence down as
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: the father.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: Yes, that is correct.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: He had he had to sign over his guardianship. I
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: guess that's what you were saying, but it was I'm trying.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: It's just so weird because and I wonder if it
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: has something to do with the farm. If Lawrence was
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: the father of the heir to the farm or one
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: of the you know, heirs to the farm, maybe that
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: changed his mind and he didn't want to be able
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: to for Lawrence to get more of his farm. I
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: don't know, could be, I don't know. So he grew.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: Lawrence agreed, he said, I've had enough you people, and
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: he returned eighteen hundred marks, and then he gave the
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: Groovers back the final two hundred marks because he said,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: if this noise, I don't want anything to do with
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: this money at all. So somehow Lauren's going to be
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: a Gray's convinced Lawrence, who seemed to have the upper
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: hand in the situation, to give up everything he had gained.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: But in time the men seemed to lose some of
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: hostility toward each other and were able to be civil
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: and converse. His neighbors. Eventually, Lawrence did marry a twenty
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: nine year old widow named Anna Dick. Again the whiplash
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: from these people Another Victoria.
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: No, okay, it's a new name, right Ooh, I knew
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: she might be Lauren.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: In spring nineteen twenty one, Cresence Raiger have been made
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: at the time went to the barn to find Andreas
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: to help her with a rain barrel, but she found
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: more than she was looking for. Presence found Andreas and
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Victoria engaged in a sex act. Growth Crimsons ran off,
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: but not before she caught Victoria's eye, and this meant
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Crimson Crimsons knew that Victoria knew that Crimsons knew the
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: dirty little gruber open secret rumor to be a fact.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: Well later, yeah, that's crazy, and so I mean everybody
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: knew it, but I guess nobody knew it knew it,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: So now there's people who know it. It's not just
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: it's been witnessed, it's not just been talked about. But
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: Victoria later approach presents and told her both made that
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: if she'd know the maid was walking into the barn,
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: she Victoria would not have given in to her father's advances.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: If she had known someone walking on them. That's when
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: she was not given in. I don't know what the yeah,
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: I don't understand this, dollars. That's the only reason. Because
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: somebody's coming. I gotta say no.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: Now, we don't know that, we know that, we know
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: they know.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: I know, I mean Cresins. Rager left the formula long
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: after this, which left the Gruvers without a living maid
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: for six months or so.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Okay, so now that we have covered some of the
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: people and the really fucked up relationship dynamics, let's get
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: into what happened before, during, and after March thirty first,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: nineteen twenty two, because it's been reported that there were
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: several strange occurrences in the days leading up to the massacre.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: It it's gonna get real spooky.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this is where it gets spooky. Andreas found
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: a strange new pet newspaper from Munich on the property
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: at some point in that month of March. He couldnot
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: remember buying it because he normally didn't, and he initially
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: believed the postman had just lost a newspaper, but this
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: was not the case because no one on the surrounding
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: farm subscribed to the paper, and the carrier denied the delivery,
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: so he didn't accident the draw it at the wrong.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Farm, right kind the weird. Victoria had also told friends
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: that she had recently seen a man dressed in army
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: gear standing in front of the trees that were a
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: distance away from the house, and when she approached him
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: to see what he wanted, he fled into the woods,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: which I think is a very important clue from my theory.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: I think you're right, And this is the part that
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: makes me think of the others that movie.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Right, So interesting thing is that all of the family
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: members had noticed keys were going missing in the house.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: Sorry.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And then on Wednesday, March twenty nine, things started
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: getting weirder. This is just two days before the murders.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: Andreas told his neighbors, and remember this is not like
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: a neighborhood, these are all farmers. Yeah, that he discovered
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: tracks in the fresh snow that led from the forest
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Todma to Adore with a broken lock that led into
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: the family's machine room. But there weren't any tracks leading
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: away from the machine room, just going to it, not
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: somebody leaving no tracks back out. And he found that
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: to be confusing and a bit unnerving, so he's He
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: spoke to some of his neighbors that day, but none
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: of them reported seeing anything or anyone suspicious.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: Hmmm, I'm already creeved out. Andreas refused offers of help
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: because of course he did, including a gun from Lorenz
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Shittling Bouer, who had offered it to him for protection,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: and the details went unreported to the police. I think
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: it's weird that he was asked that he was going
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: to give the guy a gun, but we'll get into
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: that later. One of the neighbors reminded Andreas exactly why
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: Presence Raiger, the family's previous maid, had quit six months prior,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: because she thought the help was haunted. I don't think
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: it was the only reason she left, but it may
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: have been her public answer for why she left. You know,
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: she did just see that stuff in the barn, That's
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: probably the big reason. Yeah, but no, she was freaked
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: out about this place.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she really was. And in this small town like Kathe,
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: everyone knew that Christis was deathly afraid of the house,
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: claiming that she would offer her footsteps in the attic
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: even though she knew all of them numbers were already asleep.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: In their rooms.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Hmm, like creepy good. I don't like them. No, though
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Andreas brushed her off as Eurotic. Seven year old little
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: Cecilia may have been inclined to agree that the house
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: was haunted because she would often fall asleep in school
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: after being kept awake all night by her mother Victoria.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: So after finding the footprints in the snow during the
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: morning later that evening or that not everyone in the
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: house heard footsteps coming from the attic, but Andrea's found
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: no one when he searched the building the next morning
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: after sunrise. And I don't blame him for waiting until
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: the sun came in rebattic.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: It tell you well. The next day, Thursday, March thirtieth,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Andreas and Victoria went to town to do some shopping,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: and Andreas he went to the hardware store and he
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: told the shopkeeper about all the recent strange occurrences that
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: was going on. They probably thought he's freaking crazy. And
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: Andreas had even told him that when he returned home
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: after talking to the neighbors, that he had found two
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: of his cows out of their pen, which is suspicious.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: Victoria told other shopkeepers about the noises in the attic,
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: as well, and they all said she was clearly rattled
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: from this, like they were telling everybody spun some weird's happening.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: So that means, at least right now we know they
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: had creepy noises in their attic the night before or
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: two yeah, two days the other day before, okay, and
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: so on March thirty first, which is the day of
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: the merse, although they didn't happen ntil that night, a
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: school friend of Little Cecilia's said that Little Cecilia had
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: told her that Victoria had fled the farm the previous
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: night after a fine quarrel, and only hours later they
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: found her in the forest. What that was about exactly,
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: we don't know. It just seems like another disturbing, normal
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: day at the room warm. But I wouldn't run out
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: in those woods because it looks creepy.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: So the same day, a new maid, Maria Bougardner, arrived
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: at the farm in the afternoon. She had been hired
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: after Andreas decided he couldn't handle the maintenance of both
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: the farm and Victoria, who appeared to have severe emotional problems.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: You don't say, what a surprise I couldn't be because
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: of you, Andreas you sick mofo.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: He just knows, like, yeah, no wonder breakflags everywhere there.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Marie was forty four and she had never married nor
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: had any children, and had been a maid most of
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: her adult life. Maria's sister, Francisca, had a esquorter there
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: to the farm and left the farm after about an
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: hour or two helping Maria settled in, and as Francisca
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: walked the path from the house, Maria ran after her
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: gave her a big hug. Francisca said, Maria had seen
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: uncomfortable and so you promised to visit the farm the
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: next day. Francancio was most likely the last person to
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: see anyone on the hintercoffec form alive other than the perpetrator.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: Maybe we don't know. Maria Vaumgartner had worked for only
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: a few hours before the murders.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: You imagine. It appears that sometime in the late evening, Victoria,
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: little Cecilia, and her parents Andre and Cecilia were lured
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: to the family barn through the stable, where they were
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: murdered seemingly one at a time. The perpetrator used a
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: mattic belonging to the family and killed them with blows
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: to the head. The perpetrators then moved into the living
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: quarters and using the same murder up and they killed
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: little baby Joseph sleeping in his boats and nuts, and
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: the maid Maria in her bedchamber. The bodies, however, would
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: not be found for four days. That is weapon is horrifying.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: I know, I was looking at that. That's one wicked
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: living weapon, isn't it.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: Yikes.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, little Cecilia had attended a primary school that
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: was in session for six days a week, So tell
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: your children they're lucky they only go five, right, with
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: only Sunday off. The girl didn't show up for class
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: on Saturday, which would have been April first, and this
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: was a bit unusual for her. However, everyone knew of
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: the issues with Victoria and thought that there may be
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: just some family problems, so they didn't think it was
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: worth worrying about her being absence.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, coffee sellers Hans and Eduard Schrubowski arrived at hinter
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: Kaifek to take an order at some point on Saturday morning.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: When no one responded to the knocks on the door
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: and the window, they walked around the yard but found
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: no one, and they noticed that the gate to the
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: machine house was open. However, they opted to leave. And
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: you know what I thought about when I was doing
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: this the other day, when I was putting this together,
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: I was like, Oh wow, they had the coffee, because
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: I'm out of coffee. Actually, I got to grind a
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: bunch of coffee up tonight tonight because I ran anyway, buddy.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh wow, they bought coffee to their door.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: The coffee guy came door to door, and.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh man, girl, you got Amazon, Like
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: it's the car. What are you even saying right now?
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: But which I never used those things ever, I know,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: just like.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: You know, I can remember the milkman. I was real little,
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: but I can remember that. And so I never had
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: a coffee man before. That's pretty cool. Well, after they
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: left the farm, they next went to Lauren Schlintenbauer's farm.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: This is the one this closes, is about zero point
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: three miles away. He wasn't home, but they left a
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: message regarding the empty hintrag ephic form with his wife, Anna,
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: who failed to give him the message until much later.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And for those of you that can't see the
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: visual very closely, or maybe you're watching on a phone
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: or something. Down in the left hand corner is like
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: a red lettering that says Gruber gabriel where the lovely
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: a miss a circle in it. That is where the
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: farm is. And then all those other words at the
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: top is where everyone else lives. So it's quite a distance,
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: you know, nineteen twenty two, so so if it's far.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: But anyway, so Sunday came and the Groo Gabrielle family
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: did not attend church, which was also very rare considering
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Victoria was a member of the choir, and the other
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: members of the choir expressed surprise, but no one thought
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: there was a real problem that needed to be investigated.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: Which there's like twelve people in this town, so like,
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: I don't know why people aren't concerned, But okay.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: It's well, and it was probably the only church, so.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: That's what I get.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody went to the one church they.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: Had, which was also probably the schoolhouse.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: Probably okay, probably why build a different building, there's no need.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: We'll uh, let's see, okay on Monday. This will be
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: the next day. April third, the postman Joseph Meyer left
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: the normal newspaper and noticed that the kitchen door was
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: left ajar, but he thought I family member just stepped
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: out and didn't shut the door all the way it happens.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: So he went on his way, and again little Cecilia
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: fell to attend school, where her absence was noted, but
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: it still wasn't particularly concerning to the.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: Teacher then and stops by the house because apparently these
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: pew are always stopping everywhere in this story. Yeah, anyway.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: A local mechanic, Albert Hoffner, went to hender Kaifek on
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Tuesday for a scheduled appointment to repair an injured He
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: stated that he had not seen any of the family
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: and had heard nothing but the sounds of the farm
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: animals and the dog locked inside the stable, and after
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: waiting for an hour, he decided to start his repairs,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: and he completed these in about four four and a
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: half hours and then just left.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: When he finished the repairing the machine, he doesn't have.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: Really good cheekbones his one.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: Yes, and look at that hair.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got a good set of hair. He had
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: hair there.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: Now. When he finished, Hawker noticed the dog was no
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: longer in the barn, but tied up in front of
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: the house.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: Hmmm, that's weird. Mm.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: Hmm, I got fluffy because dogs bark. My neighbor had
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: won they bark. The dog was barking and acting scared,
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: which was not normal for this dog. Because Hawker knew
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: the dog well, he also knows that the dog had
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: a gash over one eye.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: He began to look around and he noticed that the
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: barn door was wide open, which he didn't think to
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: be the case when he arrived. But he didn't want
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: to go back there, which I don't blame him, and
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: instead he knocked on the door of the house, thinking
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: he and the homeowners had just missed each other, and
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: he tried the door, but it was locked. So Hoffner
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: then just like left without further investigation, but he decided
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: to tell Lorenz Shitlumbauer, who lived down the street. I'm
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: guessing that's probably like on his way back into town,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: but okay.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: Probably, I don't know eitherbody could have been So around
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: three point thirty, Lauren said his son Johann who is sixteen,
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: and his step son another Joseph, to hinterric Eifect to
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: see whether they could make contact with the family. When
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: they were reported they not seen anyone. Laurence headed to
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: the farm that afternoon with some neighbors Michael Pole and
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: Jacob Siegel.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: Upon entering the barn, they found the bodies of Audres Gruper,
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: his wife Cecilia Cruper, his daughter Victoria, and granddaughter Little Cecilia,
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: and soon after they found the chambermaid Maria Baumgardner him
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: the youngest family member, little Joseph, All murdered in the home.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: Hm, that is the actual made room. No, that's the baby.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: That's the best inmen.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: Think, Yeah, I think that's the Victoria's ma'am.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: No, I don't know. There were some color ones too,
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: colorized ones that showed up better. Yeah, but anyway, all
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: of them showed signs of massive head trauma and their
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: skulls and faces were crushed. The older Cecilia showed strangulation
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: marks on her neck, and poor little Cecilia had ripped
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: her hair out of her head, suspected have happened as
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: she lay in agony for several hours before her death.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: When he first entered the barn ahead of his two neighbors,
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: Lorenz pulled Little Cecilia across the barn and propped her
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: in a sitting position against the wall. The neighbors walked
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: in then and told him to stop because it was
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: a crime scene. I didn't know if they had crime
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: scene etiquet during these times, but I guess so.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: Don't patch the bodies, man, you.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: Know, Inspector Georg Ryan and grew I'm look at me
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: and doing look at that facial hair I know was
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: blocking that man. Anyway, this guy and his department were
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: charged with the investigation. The investigations took place, at least initially,
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: under difficult conditions, which had several causes.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: Well, Hendri Kaife was far away from the Munich police headquarters,
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: and there were and there the forces of the police
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: were being they were tied up with all kinds of
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: political assassinations that were going on. It was, after all,
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: deal war time in Germany. The lead investigaar gettered gay
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: Or Ryan Gruber was only able to stay in person
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: on the site for just a few hours, and then
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: he controlled the investigations for Munich with the only means
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: he had disposed left that time, which would be a
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: telegraph probably crappy telephone calls and the mail.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no Internet, I'm not gonna solve crap, Yeah, not
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: at all. Well, the initial investigation was also hampered by
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: the contamination of the crime scene by neighbors such as Lorenz,
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: who moved bodies and items. Good job, Lorens. Some even
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: cooked and ate meals in the kitchen. There was also
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: an undefined period of time that day of hours between
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: the discovery of the bodies and contacting the authorities, so
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: it was kind of just ft.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: They just it must have been a thing to walk
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: around the houses of murdered people before you called the cops,
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: because it seemed like the whole town did. The day
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: after the discovery, court physician Johann Baptiste a'muller performed the
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: off tops. She's out in the open in the barn,
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: open air. Oh, sterilization, I guess didn't matter back then,
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: related to know, it did, and it was established that
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: a mac was the most likely murdered weapon, although the
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: weapon itself was not found at the scene where they
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: found the bodies, despite the use of search dogs.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: Well. Little Cecilia, just seven years old, was found with
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: severe head injuries that left her skull smashed and her
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: neck gaping open. She was gripping a clump of her
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: own hair in her right hand that she had torn
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: out of her head. Some speculate this was from being
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: in pain, while others think it's possible she did this
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: as a witness to seeing her elders murdered. The court
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: physician speculated that the young girl may have survived if
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: she had been found sooner, which means she probably died
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: slowly and painfully. I just want to say, how did
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: they expect her to survive all this in nineteen twenty two?
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: I wondered that too, But I think maybe he's said
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: that because he could tell that she led out or something.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying. If you look at the
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: injury on her skull and her jaw, I don't know
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: what kind of condition she would have been if she
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: did survive, Yeah, because that would have been a massive
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: brain injury. Oh yeah, yeah, Okay, she seemed to have
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: gotten the worst injuries. Do you feel like that too?
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: I do feel that way.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's kind of creepy to me too.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: And she's only seven.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, now we'll go to Cecilia Gruber or.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: I'll just say maybe it seemed more severe because her
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: skull is smaller. It could have maybe the power and
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: the force that was used it was different. Yeah, because
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: she was a child. Maybe I don't know.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know either. It just looks bad, but this
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: one doesn't looking better.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: They're also horrible.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: Cecilia grew he was seventy two years old when she died.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: She was strangled, her skull was cracked through to seven
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: blows to the head. And then Victoria, she was thirty five.
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: She was also strangled. They were the only who that
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: had stranglation marks, smashed skull and star shaped wounds left
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: on her head.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: It's interesting that it was the two females that were stranger.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: You think they were assaulted too.
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: I didn't. I don't know. Did they look for that
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: back then?
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: It probably not.
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: Maybe it didn't matter if she was dead. I'm probably
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: at this point from their thinking. You know what I'm saying, Well, they.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Were INVESTIGATID from Munich, so I know, I know they
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: didn't need didn't even bother.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: Well it was four days too, could they you know?
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah? I don't know.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: There was no DNA. How would they know. Maybe.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: I just think it's weird that they got close contact
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: with the two females to be able to do that,
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: but then do that to their head. That seems why
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: the overkilled for those two. That's interesting, but anyway, I'm sorry,
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know it.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: Is the whole Yeah, it's like if this had happened now.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: I don't want to say you want to happen, but
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: it's like there's so much that they couldn't do back
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: then that they can do now.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: You know, then Maria Baumgardner was forty four years old
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: when she was killed. She was killed with by blows
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: to the head with a sharp, whole lot object, so
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: it could still be the mats with the other end
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: if it was stabby. Joseph was two and his face
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: was smashed in and he was asleep in his bass nets.
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: Would have had a cover, and the force came down
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: through that bassinet cover, so I mean it broke it
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: to hit him. They had to break it. So yeah,
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: that was like bad too. And then Andres Gruber sixty three,
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: the right side of his face was smashed and stripped,
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: stripped of the flesh in the process, revealing the cheekbone.
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: His wound doesn't look as bad as the others.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: No, but I wonder like, was he the first or
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: the last? You know, maybe they didn't. I'm gonna go
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: with he was probably the first because he was too.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: And maybe they thought they just tried to stun him
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: and ended up killing him by luck or something. I
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: don't know.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's old. He's old, right, like sixty Yeah, well.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: See that's the thing the mother cecilia.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, not that that's old, but.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, hey, I'm sixty three, watch it right, So it's old.
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: Anyway, The skulls of the victims were removed and sent
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: to Munich for further examination. However, the skull's leader went
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: missing during the bombings during World War Two. So no,
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: that's great, very great. So first, suspecting the motive to
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: be robbery, the police interrogated traveling craftsmen, vagrants, and several inhabitants,
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: inhabited inhabitants. What was inhabitants I know, words from the
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: surrounding villages, But they abandoned this theory when a large
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: amount of money was found in the house.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: M I just have thought maybe if those schools had
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: survived until later, which we'll get to, you know, with
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: the police academy, that might have made a difference with them.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: You know, maybe, I don't know. Maybe it was clear
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: that the perpetrators had remained at the farm for several days.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: Someone had fed the cattle, consume the entire bread supply
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: from the kitchen. It had recently cut meat from the pantry,
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: but with and there was no clear motive to be
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: gleaned from the crime scene, and so the police began
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: to formulate a list of suspects. They had over one
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: hundred suspects and repeated rests over the years, a high reward,
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: and they even consulted fortune tellers, but no murder has
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: ever been found. The case was closed in nineteen fifty five,
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: but there were final interrogations up to and including in
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six. Nineteen eighty six, mm hmm, that's crazy. Yeah,
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: No would they talk to in nineteen eighty six, seventy
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: years later?
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: Right? Who are they? I don't know, some neighbors. I
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: don't know how I think the whole hundred suspects is
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: literally everyone that lives in Kaifek.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: But okay, I think so.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So the Groovers had no recent enemies that could
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: serve as obvious suspects, and we combined this with their
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: former needs, fear of the homestead being haunted, and a
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: lot of people then and now, well this part, I'll
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: take my hand down for this one because I should
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: have finished because I was like that. But then and
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: now people were inclined to think that the hens are
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: Kaifak murders were paranormal in nature.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: So I'm not on that. Uh, I'm not on that
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: plane on that bus.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: Right, I don't think so, not in this circumstance.
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: If you look at that picture, I don't know how
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: well they can see it. But the house is the
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: probably what is that four rooms and all away in
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: the kitchen down on the on the left. All the
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: rest of that is the stable, and in the bar
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: and whatever. It's all under one roof, and there is
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: a The attic runs the entire length of that. Yeah,
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: and used it for storage of grain and hay and whatever.
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was very interconnected.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is creepy. There was of the lord, but
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: nothing stuck except this. The crime was committed by someone
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: who knew how to run a farm, was forbuning with livestock,
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: was comfortable enough to stay at the farm after the
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: murders in the company of the family dog, was strong
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: enough to wield domatic so many times, did not care
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: for money, and most of what we had a personal
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: reason for this crime.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: I'm only gonna put this.
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: Well.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: See I'm thinking thinking personal might not be personal. It
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: might be just personal to them, you know what I'm saying.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: It might not be a relationship thing. It might have
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: been they had their own personal reason for doing it.
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: That may not have been because I don't like this person.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: It may it well, which we'll get to.
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: That well. During the investigation, police heard about all about
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: scandalous thirty laundry about the groups that's their related over
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: the previous years, and the scandal only grew after neighbors
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: noticed that Andreas was extremely jealous with regard to Victoria,
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: often forbidding her from leaving home aside from when she
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: would go to church, and he had also forbidden her
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: from remarrying. So could that be a motive for someone?
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: Maybe maybe maybe.
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: Early on, it was thought that the victims were probably
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: drawn at the barn by restlesss with the in the stable,
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: which because of animal noises from the animals, But this
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: theory was probably not plausible because investigators discovered that the
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: noise from the barn could not be heard in.
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: The house, which I think is weird.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: Because they're connected.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: They're connected. It's not like these were soundproof walls or
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: it's nineteen twenty two.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: But what if they were made of like mud or something.
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: Okay, I don't know either. I mean, I'm like you,
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: I was like, really they got cat it like you
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: hear ever move there was out there.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: It's not that far now, That's what I would think,
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: but I guess not anyway. So on the night after
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: the crime, three days yes, On the night after the crime,
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: three days before the bodies were discovered to be the
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: first April First artists in michel Plocool happened to pass
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: by hinter Chaifect as usual on his way home from work.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: He observed that the oven had been heated by someone,
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: and that person had approached him with a lantern, which
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: blinded him, so he quickly continued on his way. Clocal
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: also noticed that the smoke from the fireplace had a
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: revolting smell, and there was no follow up to this incident,
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: and no investigation was conducted to determine what had been
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: burned that night in the oven. I don't know what
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: A cold man maybe, I guess that could be a
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: bad smile.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: I don't know. At three am on April first, a
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: local farmer and butcher Simon Rosslander, on his way home
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: near Brunen, saw two mysterious figures at the edge of
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: the forest. So this would be him going not necessarily
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: right by the house for the farm, but somewhere close by.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: And when the strangers saw him, they turned so that
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: he couldn't see their faces, so their faces can be seen.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: And later when he heard the murders in hinder Kaifek,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: he thought it possible that these strangers might be involved
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: because they were in the area of the woods.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: Well in mid May nineteen twenty seven, about five years later,
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: a stranger was said to have stopped a residence of
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: Widenhoffen at midnight, asked him questions about the murder, before
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: shouting that he was the murderer, and then went running
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: into the woods. But this stranger was never ident I
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: think it was probably just some crazy person. So let's
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: really get into though, what we're all here for at
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: this point. Some the suspects and the theory is because, sir,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: some of you are like, I have some theories.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody should have a few right now.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: All right, let's dive into a couple of weeks.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: Okay. One of the more popular suspects is helpful neighbor,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: Laurence Schlittenbauer. He was the one who found the bodies,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: and he seemsis authorities discovered the Laurens Victoria Andre's relationship
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: and became suspicious of the neighbor. And he also had
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: some interesting actions immediately after discovering the bodies.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: Well, when he and his neighbors arrived to investigate, they
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: had to break a gate to enter the barn because
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: all of the doors were locked. However, immediately after finding
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: the four bodies in the barn, Lorenz apparently unlocked the
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: front door of the house with a key and suspiciously
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: entered the house alone.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: So and yeah, well that doesn't look so good for Lawrence.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: As mentioned previously, keys had gone missing a few days
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: before the murders. But it also that Lawrence, as a
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: neighbor or as Victoria's potential lover, might have been given
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: a key.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, Lorenz already having keys to the place
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: doesn't really surprise me, no at all.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: Doesn't mean either that that seems like something you would do,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: especially if you need somebody, you have to go to
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: town and you somebody look at your livestock or something. Whatever.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: They known each other for years.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. When asked by his companions why had gone into
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: the house alone when it was unclear where the murder
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: must still be there, Wren's allegedly stated that he went
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: to look for his son, Joseph. It was known that
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: Lorenz disturbed the bodies at the scene, thus he contentionally
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: potentially I can't say that word, potentially compromised investigation.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The Munich police department figured that Lorenz was the
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: suspect for the hinter Kaithak murders because he had the
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: easiest access to the groups and a strong possible motive,
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: especially compared to some of the other suspects they considered,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: which okay, but like, what would be his motive to
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: kill everyone, including his own son? Like, it just doesn't
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: He's remarried. It doesn't make any sense to me.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: What motive he could possibly have had to Yeah, I mean,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: and he signed over a guardianship, so it wasn't like
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: he was expected to provide for the boy, which he
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 3: might have happened to Andre's.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: But you know, at this point in time, he didn't
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: have that concern. I don't either. Strange For many years after,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: local suspicion remained on Lawrence because of his strange comments,
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: which were seen as indicating knowledge or details that only
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: the killer would recall. For example, according to information in
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: the official file for this case, local teacher Hans E.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: Blogger discovered Laurence vis ruins of the demolished hinterri Kaifek
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty five. Laurence stated that the perpetrator's attempt
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: to bury the deceased remains in the barn had been
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: hindered by the frozen ground.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: This was seen as evidence that Lorenz had intimate knowledge
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: of the conditions of the ground at the time of
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: the murders.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: How would he know that?
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: How would he? No, that is so suspicious. However, he
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: was a neighbor and familiar with the local land, so
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: he may have been making an educated guess. And I'm
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: sorry that is the most outlandish reason someone seems suspicious. Ever,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: Like when you live in the sort of environment where
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: the ground freezes, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: know that like at all. But was it smelling?
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: You know what it might have been?
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: How's hard was the frozen guard ground in winter? He
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: was an experienced farmer and listen, it literally just said
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: that he was suspicious because he visited the room ruined, like.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: He probably walked by it every day.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: His maybe son was killed. He did know these people,
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: and also he was like, hey, look it looks like
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: somebody tried to dig holes for bodies, but the ground
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: was too frozen.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: Not like it's not frozen over at my farm on
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: March thirty first in Bavaria, Germany.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: You know, yeah, I'm sorry, but not.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: Another speculation was that Laurence murdered the family after Victoria
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: demanded financial support for young Joseph. I don't think that's
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: I don't I don't see that as behind. I saw
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: no facts of that. No, No, that's just speculation, and
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: he'd already signed over. They couldn't make him pay anything,
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: I don't think at that time. Before his death in
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: nineteen forty one, Lawrence conducted I Love that word and
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: won several civil claims for slander against different people who
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: described him as the murderer of Hendrik Kifek.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: So yeah, you're winning those civil lawsuits. I know, not
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: something you know. I don't know Lorenz being the killer.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: It's just doesn't make much sense to me, you know,
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: noe are the reasons that people find him suspicious. I'm
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: gonna need more. I'm gonna need a lot more for
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: it to be him. So that's that's where he is
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: on my list. He is not high, He's like, no, yeah,
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: he really is. I mean I didn't say anything that
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: maybe be like nothing is There're all seen reasonable things
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: for somebody who that's down the street from you, that
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: you've known for years, who's also a farmer. But anyway, okay,
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: who's next on our list of suspects Here.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: Next center suspect lineup is Carl Gabriel. Remember him? Yes,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: he was married to Victoria for a few short months
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: and then left her and signed up to go fight
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: in World War One. Well, he had reportedly been killed
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: in December nineteen fourteen by shell attack in Aris, France,
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: early in World War One, but his body was never recovered.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: M he's illless, I'm kidding. After the murders, people being
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: a speculate about whether he had, in fact or not
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: in the war.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: So yeah. After the end of World War two were
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: captives from Schrobenhausen region of Bavaria who had been released
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: prematurely from Soviet captivity. Stated that they had been sent
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: home by a German speaking Soviet officer who claimed to
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: be the hinter Chifact murderer. However, some of the men
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: later revised their statements, which diminish their credibility.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: It would yeah, some theorized that the Soviet officer in
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: question might have actually been Carl Gabriel, because those who
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: claimed have seen Gabriel after his reported death testify that
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: he had wanted to go to Russia. However, when investigators
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: spoke to a few soldiers who said they had actually
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: seen Karl's dead body, they stop pursuing the matter.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, I suppose one we could have a war
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: ghost in the story. It makes sense, but I mean, yeah, okay,
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: maybe he could have wanted to maybe seek revenge on
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: the family and blame them for him going to war.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: But would he kill the children because little Cecilia could
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: have been his daughter? Remember that? And this is like
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: six years after him and Victoria's marriage. So why then,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: you know why? Nineteen twenty two? I don't know, I don't.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: I don't think I'm gonna put him on my murder board.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. World War one ghosts not on
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: my murder board for this.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: I don't think that ghost needs to be on there
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: either next step are the very interesting Gump brothers.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: Mmm, Gump, Yeah.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: Adol Gump.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: That's not great.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: I'll look at him. He looks so German.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: That's true. No, you're you're all correct and that.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Adolph Gunp was listed as a suspect as early
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: as April April ninth, nineteen twenty two, due to his
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: connection to the Flight Corps. I can't say it's not
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: bought frob, It's Oberland or translated would be Highland's Free Corps.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: Right. So this was a voluntary paramilitary organization that, in
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: the early years of the Weimar Republic fought against communists
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: and Polish insurgents, and it was successful in the nineteen
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: twenty one Battle of Anenburg and became the core of
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: the Sturma tailing in Bavaria, although several members later turned
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: out turned against the Nazis.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: So well, least some had some sense, didn't they.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: They turned against them.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: I know, That's what I'm saying, those the ones that
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: turned against them. As a Fly Corps member, Gunp was
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: said to have participated in the murder of nine farmers
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: in Upper Silesia during the fight against the nineteen twenty
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: one polished uprising in the region. He had a warn
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: for his arrest issued by the district wart of Opel,
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: so was he on the run from authorities.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty one, several years after this massacre, Prosecutor
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: Andreas another one I Cambers hey Day Sybet Young Guad
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: Prosecutor Andreas pop investigated brothers Adolf and Anton Gump in
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: the hinter Kaifak murders. Their sister Crescentia Mayor claimed on
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: her deathbed that Adolf and Anton had committed the murders.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: As a result, in Ton Gump was remanded to police custody,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: but Adolf had already died in nineteen forty four, I imagine,
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: probably because the war. After a short time, however, Anton
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: was dismissed and in nineteen fifty four the case against
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: him was finally discontinued because he could not be proven
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: to have participated in the crime. Okay, I will put
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: these two on the murder board. Okay, they actually as
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: a matter of fact, I will say Aidolf specifically is
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: very high on my murder board, and that's because it
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: matches some of the eyewitness statements and you know, such
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: as Victoria maybe seeing somebody in military here, you know,
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: somebody that can hide and go unprotected and live off
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: the grid. Anyway, We'll get into that later, but I
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: do think that the family was being watched and studied
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: and that this was more than likely a two person jobs,
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: right though, based on Adolph's history, it could have easily
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: been just him, it really could. You know, he he
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: has a history of you know that.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think, yeah, it's not a reason to
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: think that he would hide out in the attic. He
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: would be the kind of he would be more than
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: willing to do that if he was.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: You know, it's still cold, even in the march in Germany,
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: it's still cold.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's probably cold in the attic, but at
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: least it's shelter and you've got a lot of straw
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: in it. I don't know, it's supposed to be warm.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: I don't know. But anyway, I agree that these two
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: need to be on your mord board. I understand why
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: Lorens and even supernatural ghosts, ghost Lawrence or ghost Karl
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, uh would have been considered suspects initially right
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: at the beginning, but they make zero sense when you
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: look below this because neither one of them had anything
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: to gain from it. It just didn't make sense for them.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: No.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: Now, this next theory didn't come out for many years.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy one, That is forty nine years later
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: for those of you playing the home game and who
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: don't math that's us. A woman named Therese Schnirtney, Yes
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: it's cluse enough, wrote a letter citing an event in
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: her youth. At the age of twelve, she witnessed her
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: mother receiving a visit from the mother of the brothers
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: Karl and Andres Heather one Frier. So is that name
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: number five? Ors at six?
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: It could be like fifteen at this point, I know, couldn't.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: The woman claimed her signs from Saddleberg were the two
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: murders of Kendrick Kaifek. During the overheard conversation, the mother
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: allegedly said, Rice regranted that he lost his pen knife.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: Hmmmm, I do agree. So in fact, you guys, when
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: the farm was demolished in nineteen twenty three, a pocket
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: knife that one there was found that could not be
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: clearly assigned to anyone. However, the knife could have easily
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: belonged to one of the murder victims or somebody that
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: worked on the farm at one point in time. It
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean it belonged to the killer. And this
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: track was followed without result. Presidence Rager, the former maid
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: of kinder Kai effect, was certain she had already seen
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: the penknife in the yard during her service. So that's
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: the old may had being like, m Nope, Arnie saw it,
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: not it now? Certainly that is a very interesting theory.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: You know, for a mother to admit that her sons
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: or the actual killers would be probably something shocking to overhear,
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: memorable even but unfortunately the when was twelve at the
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: time she heard this and didn't say anything about it
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: for decades. So it's kind of hard for me to
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: give this very much credits. And you know, I'm not
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: saying the lady's lying, but memory is are fickle things,
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: especially over decades of time.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: From Yeah, she could have had a dream she convinced
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: herself was real. But perhaps she simply created a false memory,
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: you know, as we know that can.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: Happen, or emerging a bunch of different stories.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she knows.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: Nice, nice, Oh man, that's officer Devers in case nobody knows, yes, well,
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: is she former officer Yeah, at this point.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: I don't know. She's technically a former she's on sabbatical maybe,
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Next is Peter Webber, who was named
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: a suspect by Joseph Bebts. This story's looking to The
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: two men worked together in the winter of nineteen twenty,
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: nineteen nineteen and nineteen twenty as laborers together, and they
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: shared a room. According to Betts, Weber spoke at that
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: time of a remote farm hinterra kaifec Weber knew that
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: only one old couple lived, they're with their daughter and
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: her two children. It's also possible that Weber knew about
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: the incests between Andre's and Victoria, but I don't know
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: that that would have made a difference motive wise, if
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: there was a motive. But Betts testified in a hearing
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: that Weber had suggested killing the old man to get
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: the family's money. When Betts did not respond to the offer,
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: Weber stopped talking about it.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's certainly an interesting conversation. But if
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: the motive was money, nothing of value was reported stolen,
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: including the cash. So I don't know. I don't know
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: about that story. I don't mean now Cresentsiger the former
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: maid remember her worked from November nineteen twenty to about
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: September nineteen twenty one at hinter Kayfek. She suspected the
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: brothers Anton and Carl Bickler to have committed the murders. Now,
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: Anton Bickler had helped with the potato harvest at Henter Kayfek. Okay,
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: and therefore knew the premises. That's interesting, okay, Crescin said.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: Anton talked to her often about the Gruberg Gabrielle family.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: Anton reportedly suggested that the family ought to be dead
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: because she's never talking about you know, the rumors right now.
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: The maid also emphasized in her interrogation at the farm
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: dog who barked at everyone, never barked at Anton. In addition,
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: she reported speaking with a stranger through her window, not
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: we're gonna get more in the habit later too. Yes,
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: the maid believed that it was Carl Bickler, brother of Anton.
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: She thought that Anton and Carl Bickler could have committed
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: the murder together with it. Gay org Ogel, No, sorry, Sigle,
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: that looked like a with my glasses. See Sigle, who
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 2: had worked at here Kopik and knew of the family fortune.
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: Now suppose supposedly gay Org Sigel what's his name had
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: broken into the home in November nineteen twenty, that's when
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: the maid was still there, and stolen a number of items,
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: though he denied it. He did know, however, that the
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: murder weapon when he was working at henter Kaifect and
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: knew that the tool would have been kept in the
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: barn passage, but he said he didn't make it because
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: it was like a homemade handsl right. He was like,
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: I didn't make that. As a matter of fact, it
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 1: was Andrea Skruber who carved that handle, and that Andreas
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: did such a shit job, you would recognize that handle anywhere.
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: Which is about the shade from an official statement, because
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 2: I'm licking.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: That that was paraphrase.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: I think maybe not, maybe not, I think it was.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: All of these names are something they are let's see, okay.
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: I will say that this theory could be a possibility
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: that these two brothers, especially coming from the former maid,
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: hired help. He usually knows everything that's going on, so
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: I do give her a little bit more credit than
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: I might some others. And Anton's comment about the family
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: should be dead. Plus they knew the farm very well
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: that does put them higher on the list from me.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: But again, nothing was stolen that we know of, so
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: what exactly their motivation would have been behind it. I
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: don't know. If it was them, I don't know. But
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: they're on there again, two people, so.
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: You're right, two people. They probably would work together. So
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: far we are flushed with suspects, but the motivations are thin. Yeah,
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: that's true. The Thaler brothers were also suspected. According to
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: a statement by again Christens Riger, the brothers had already
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 2: committed several minor burglaries in the area before the murders occurred.
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: Rager said that Yosah Thaylor stood at her window at
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: night and asked her questions about the family. Oh look,
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: there's all off, there's more on races and josephs Yeah,
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: but she did not answer his questions about the family.
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: In conversation Yosa's stay, they had a lot of money
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 2: and during their conversation, where I go, not that there
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: was another person nearby. I guess she could see him
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: over to the side from where through her window. According
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: to her statement, Joseph, Joseph Stater and the stranger had
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: looked at the machine house and turned their eyes upward,
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: and I think that means probably a way.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know, why does she keep talking to people
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: through a window at nights, like, especially when it seems
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: like she doesn't really know any of them. I also,
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It's weird to me, It's weird, why
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: are you doing that? But I guess when you're in
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: the middle of nowhere, you'll try to talk to whoever
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: comes by me. But I also, I really don't think
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: that this set of brothers are auspicious, are as suspicious
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: as they're not even I don't even think they're on
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 1: my list? Yeah I murder board. Nope.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, in my one thing in my research of
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: the story, most of these houses are like pretty close
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: to the past, so people would walk by your front
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: door and it wouldn't be like ten feet away. But
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: it was also pointing out the area residence is pretty
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 2: rural and they didn't have you know, television or even radio,
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: no internet, and so their entertainment was visiting and talking
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: with each other.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: I mean, I checks out.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: So maybe present's talking with strangers through her window at night,
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: wasn't that strange in action for them? Or maybe she's
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 2: just a window hole. I don't know.
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: Window A window, A window, all right? So our last
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: theory for the night Guys is Paul Mueller, Okay. In
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: his book The Man from the Train, Bill James alleges
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: that a man known as Paul Mueller, a German migrant,
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: may have been respond before the murders. Mueller was the
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: only suspect in the Night ab second eighteen ninety eight
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 1: murder of a Massachusetts family and James. The author believes
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: Mueller killed dozens of victims based on research in American
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: newspaper archives.
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: Mmm, the Intercothek murders. There are some similarities to Mueller
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 2: suspect froms in the United States, including the slaughter of
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 2: an entire family in their isolated home. You said, Blonai's
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: farm tools as a weapon, a pickaxe, moving stacking, the
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: bodies of the victims, and the apparent absence of robbery
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: as a motive.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of similarities.
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: Were really I know, yeah a lot.
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: So the author James suspects that Mueller, a German immigrant,
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: might have departed the US for his homeland by nineteen twelve,
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: after private investigators and journalists began to notice and publicize
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: patterns in family murders across state lines, so they're like,
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: you got the hell on here and probably went back home,
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: which nineteen twelve is a wild time to travel back
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: to Europe. But okay, yeah, so that must mean you're
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: running from something to go over there then oh really so.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: There is, however, nothing official to support the author's theory,
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: and while it seems highly unlikely that this was the
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: work of a serial killer who found his way back
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: to his home country after murdering it dozens of families
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: in the United States, okay dozens, this theory actually goes
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: pretty high on my murder board. I would never usually
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: say that until I've learned more about this book. I
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: wish I could we could get more into depth to
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: Night about Paul Mueller, because then I went and started
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: researching him and like, I read the wiki of this book,
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: which I encourage you all to go read the wiki
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: of this book Command from the Train and see all
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: of the very eerie comparisons. I know, I need to
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: get this book and read it because I'm fascinating. I've
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: never even heard of such a thing.
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: I'm going to get that book too.
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and if it's true that Paul Mueller did do
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: all of these family massacres in the United States. He's
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: responsible for what they believe to be fifty nine murders,
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: but they actually think that numbers in the hundreds, which
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: would make him, as I think, higher than serial killer
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: Samuel Little. He'd be the most notorious serial killer in America.
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 1: But that's the only reason why he's high up on
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: my list is because, yeah, he kind of disappeared. VMO
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: is pretty much it's the same. And he would have
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: went to Germany with nothing probably.
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 2: And he would probably be somebody that would hide out
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: a lot too, even if he was in Germany, because
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: they knew he was from there. I mean, America knew
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: he was from there.
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: So yes, so I urge everyone to go deep dive
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: Paul Miller. I know, I'm going to look more into.
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: Him a forcire It.
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: We'll probably cover him in an episode eventually.
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: I think we should eventually. Yeah, Okay. The police interviewed
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: in released many suspects without a motive or further leaves
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: the case dragged on with no resolution. The police finally
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 2: close the file in nineteen fifty nine. Although the case
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: was used as a thought exercise for the police Academy.
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: Sorry, those are really nice coffins. Look how well crafted
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: those coffins are.
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: Well, people might have liven making those by him.
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I have the interesting shape and I got those
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: are really craftsmanship. I'm sorry. So in two thousand and seven,
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: the first Enfeldbrook I hope that was right. Police Academy
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: reopened the investigation. Fifteen students examined the case using modern
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: criminal investigation techniques. In their final report, they confirmed the
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: meticulousness of the investigation at the time, but criticized the
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: lack of professional forensics. It's nine two.
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: Is this Canton, Massachusetts?
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: Did they even know to wash their hands for surgery
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty two? I don't think so. I don't
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: know if that was even a thing then, but okay,
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: sure in particular, in particular, the failure to take fingerprints
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: was criticized as this was already common practice at the time,
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: which I did not know.
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: I didn't either, I didn't realize it went back that far.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: But okay, But also would you have had that many
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: fingerprint compared like m sure they should have taken them
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: for I guess now in modern daytime, but like the
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: investigator was like hours away in Munich. Okay, right, anyway,
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: They also criticized the lack of crime scene sketches, which
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: I do agree with. I agree with that because if
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: he's headed back to Munich, like and where's all the photographs?
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 1: Clearly they had cameras then well they had We saw
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 1: a few, but well, that's true.
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: We probably didn't see them all. They probably didn't have more.
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: But sketches also can show a layout like I could
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 2: do overhead.
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: You know, yeah, the bird's ivy. Oh, that's true, so
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: they have they not have drones.
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 2: Back then, however, actual evidence had become lost and witnesses
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 2: had passed on, which made it impossible for them to
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: solve the hinter Gothic murders. Interestingly enough, all all authors
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: of this report independently. They came to their conclusions on
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 2: their own, but they all agreed on who the main
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: suspect was. However, his name was not mentioned out of
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 2: considerations for his descendants. I am, yes, this is where,
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: this is where.
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: That's that is where it all happened.
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 2: That's where.
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 1: Our closing thoughts. I just want to say, but this
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: this whole what we think we know, but we're not
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: gonna say becausin care about and defendants Like okay, but
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: like what about the descendants of this family? Yeah, you
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 1: know remember Cauzilia the mom had two other children from
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: her previous marriage. Yep, you know. Did they not want
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: or need answers? And this excuse just really bothers me.
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, yes, I am nosy. I'm not gonna lie.
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: I am no. I know you do.
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 1: But is this is this possible that the perpetrator's descendants
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: are important people in the community or something, you know,
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: like that they just they don't want their name tarnished
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: to have the truth out there, because I mean, like,
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: even if it was, how is this their fault? This
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: is one hundred years ago? Like I'm sorry, I just
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: I don't feel bad about anything. The people whole you know,
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 1: generation before me did I didn't do it, you know, like.
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: Why we maybe politicians, I mean, you know, a lot
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 2: from a local police department and their families grew up
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 2: the attorneys or district attorneys or government. I don't know.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah that's true. Now, as you guys all see, there
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 1: are many possible theories and there's more than what we covered.
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 1: There are lots more. And I think for me, the
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: two that really stick out to me for being the
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: most realistic and matches a lot of what is known
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 1: about the case is Adolf Gump and maybe his brother Anton,
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 1: followed by the alleged serial killer Paul Mueller. And because
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: I don't think this was done by amateurs at all,
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: I do think this had to be probably done by
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: somebody who had killed previously and felt comfortable doing what
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: they were doing. And also the brutality inflicted upon the
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: children leads me to believe that whoever did this had
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: probably killed before and wanting to possibly stay in the
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: house leads me to believe this is somebody that's in
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: kind of like a transient lifestyle, somebody that might have
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 1: had military experience. And that's where my head is going
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: on the theories for there now. Why they want to drop
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 1: those names, I don't know, but those are my two
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: top contenders for what I think happened to this the family.
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 2: I think you're right. I think maybe the person thought
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: they could stay there for a while because of how
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: there is, but then people did start coming around, maybe
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 2: more than they expected.
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: Yes, remember they took care of the animals they were cooking.
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: They knew how to survive too, and as Amy said
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: they had to practically live among the dead. Well, yes,
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: you were in World War one or two. Yes, what
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: you'd sleep in the trenches with the bodies like it's
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: really disturbing to say, but that's very true. So I
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: could see. I think whoever it was needed a level
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: of brutality. Those petty burglars we talked of, no.
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 2: Way, Yeah, they would have taken the money it was
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 2: left behind.
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And if it was either Adolf Gum or Paul Mueller,
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 1: they were both wanted by authorities, So they're going to
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: try to keep a little profile. They're going to move
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: from place to place, and that those are my two
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: high suspects in this case.
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 2: I agree with you with regards to Anton Gun and
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 2: his brother, Adolf Gum and Anton. The paramilitary organization that
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 2: Adolf was a member of was known to sanitize area
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 2: of farms during World War One, especially if they were
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 2: suspected of being subversive to the government, or if they
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 2: had if they thought they had a large cash weapons
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 2: and they might be involved in with an uprising, which
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 2: we don't know, we don't have any indication of that.
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: But without how war works exactly everywhere and every work
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: in other.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 2: Acts, erect other stuff that they didn't like what they
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 2: were doing that seemed to go against the government, and
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 2: so they just take all those And maybe he did
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 2: have a gun, get a cachet of weapons, and that's
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 2: what they took instead of the money. We don't know that.
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 2: I don't. You know.
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: What's interesting was back then, back while in the beginning
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: of the story, Lorenz offers Andreas a gun for his protection.
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: But I don't understand why Andreas needed did he not
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: have a gun? You're a farmer and you don't have
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: a gun at all. This doesn't make any sense, any
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 1: sense to me at all that he wouldn't have had
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: a gun of some like everyone has a farm had
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: a gun. You know, this is in nineteen twenty two.
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 1: There's like wolves and shit, you know, like they're happening.
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 2: And there are vagrants too, especially you know, during wartime
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: you've got all kinds of people coming around you. I
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 2: don't that is kind of funny to me. Also, maybe
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 2: he had a gun and that's why he said I
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 2: don't need yours, thank.
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: You, Rell. And I also think that is how one
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: person could have potentially controlled the whole family, is that
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: they probably had a firearm as well. No amos, that is,
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 1: I think they're they're showering the fields.
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 2: Oh oh yeah, I mean the sprinkler that looks like
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 2: a ghost. They're taking a picture up back there. I
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 2: think I think it was interesting that the perpetrators stayed
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: on the farm, like, you know, were they on the
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 2: run where they're trying to hide. I don't believe it
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 2: was just a vagrant or a petty criminal either. It
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 2: seems to organized to be an amateur who's just trying
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: to commit a crime, or even if it's necessary, you know,
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 2: he's on the run and he needs a place to stay.
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 2: But nothing was taken, and there was cash. It's not
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 2: like it's not like they had paper stuff that would
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 2: be hard to use. This money, we had a cash
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 2: in that farm. It's all there. We don't know that
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 2: it was all there. There was a large sum there.
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: That's true. So that is true.
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 2: And I also believe that the descendants of the group
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 2: were deserved know the truth because if authorities really didn't
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 2: know who they suspect, And.
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: Like I know, everybody wants to chalk Victoria as being
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 1: a hot mess. And I don't blame the girl, Okay,
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: I don't. All right, But two things she said is
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 1: one she thought she saw somebody in military fatigues out
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: in the woods. Yeah, all right. And the other was
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: the night before the murders, she runs into the woods. Yeah,
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: so she's freaking out and they had to bring her back.
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 1: What was she freaking out about? Could it have been
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 1: she saw this man or men or something. And then
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 1: at that point, the perpetrators it was like, all right,
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 1: tomorrow's gonna have to be the day.
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 2: Like, yeah, I didn't gonna have to do something because
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 2: they've seen me or.
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: She saw yeah whatever, Yeah, like I have to do
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 1: what it do what I do or whatever. I don't know.
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: I feel like whatever happened with Victoria the night before
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: is very important.
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, the way I read that story from the
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 2: Little Girl's report, her Victoria being a hot mess, like
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 2: you said, wasn't unknown to the people. But I don't
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 2: believe that action was a normal thing that happened.
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 1: Just because somebody seems crazy, it doesn't mean everything they
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: say is crazy.
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 2: Gontre paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: That's right, That's right. That's how I feel about Victorian.
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 1: This yeah thing, well, you guys are listeners, let us
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 1: know in the comments what your theory and possible suspects
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 1: you think were responsible for the hinter Kaithek family massacre.
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: Oh boy, that was a story. That was a story,
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: all right, you guys. Before we go, If you like
• 1:38:49
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• 1:38:51
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• 1:38:57
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• 1:39:00
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• 1:39:02
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• 1:39:04
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• 1:39:07
  Speaker 1: getting our little channel out there. Now, you guys. Next
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: week on True Crime and Wine Time, we will be
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: covering the man who vanished after killing his family, the
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 1: John List Nightmare.
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 2: Our faces that one of Terry is like perfect, perfect, perfect,
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 2: because that's what I was. That was what I had
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 2: on my face when I was researching.
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 1: Like, yes, the Lovely Lady. If you've enjoyed this the
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 1: recession on this show, Lady and Gray is researching the
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 1: next case for us as well, and it's greatly But
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 1: if you're not familiar with John List, I won't do
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: too many spoilers, but he murdered his entire family, laid
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 1: them out like porcelain dolls, and then disappeared without a trace.
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 1: It's a good one, you guys, a good story. Not
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 1: want to miss miss this one. Now, if you need
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 1: more of Terry True Crime and I, you can always
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 1: find us doing something on our true crime and one
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 1: time YouTube channel. Terry. We'll be doing Midday Missing next
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 1: week on Monday and Wednesday, but then she will be
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: on a break for a few weeks. Now, you guys,
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 1: some really good news because I had a very busy month.
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: But couch Court with Lama is back. That's right. Tomorrow
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 1: we'll be watching the sentencing of Lori Valo day Bell
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 1: tomorrow and at like eleven thirty eastern, Yes, eleven thirty eastern.
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: I won't be late this time. And then for the
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 1: next few weeks we'll be watching the trials of Brooks
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 1: House and Joseph Lawson as well as Steven Lawson. These
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 1: are the people who have been tried in the disappearance
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 1: and murder of Crystal Rogers. Their trials have concluded, but
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: just recently all the videos of the trial have been released,
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 1: so we're going to watch them all so we can
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: hear our in their own words and make up our
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: own decisions on what the verdict should be. So, if
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 1: you're unfamiliar with the Crystal Rogers case, I did a
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: huge deep dive covering everything about her case as well
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: as other unsolved cases in Bartown, Kentucky. So go to
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 1: our Crystopher Rogers playlist to catch up. Now, if you
• 1:41:25
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• 1:41:31
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• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: to thank the lovely Lady and Gray for being a
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 1: fantastic co host tonight. Yes, round, applause everybody for her.
• 1:41:41
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• 1:41:44
  Speaker 1: an amazing job in the comments as well. And is
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: there anything you would like to say before we go
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: or sign off? Share Lady and Gray?
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 2: Sorry, yes, okay, First I want to sign em both
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 2: eat for helping us with the pronunciations of these German words.
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 2: It's true, you guys, I was trying to get them
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 2: all online and sometimes that's not always.
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: Actually, he said, mostly yours were correct. Actually, he said,
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 1: good job for her.
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 2: But yeah, he but he did get some of those
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 2: that I was dread trying to figure out, like that
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 2: one has that funny letter looks like. I was like,
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 2: I don't want to mess with that one. But I
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 2: want to thank you for having me on as a
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 2: co host, and the Lovely Amos for all her background
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 2: stuff that she does with the slide show that cap
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 2: and pulled together and some of her pictures or her
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 2: slides are always amazing to make.
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 1: They are they.
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 2: Are, and it was a real pleasure to be here,
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 2: and I want to encourage all the other members of
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 2: the team to step up and give it a try.
• 1:42:58
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• 1:43:00
  Speaker 2: just want say thank you everybody for being here with
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 2: us tonight. We love all of you, We appreciate all
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 2: of you, and good night all y'all.
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 1: Yes, once again, thank you everyone for listening and supporting us.
• 1:43:13
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• 1:43:16
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• 1:43:19
  Speaker 1: Until then, go forth and be amazing.