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257: Happy Employees Create Happy Customers? Not Automatically · Customer Service Revolution | Customer Experience & Employee Experience for Business Leaders

• 0:48
  Welcome back to the Customer Service Revolution Podcast with John DiJulius I'm your co-host, Denise Thompson.
• 0:55
  John, welcome.
• 0:56
  How are you today?
• 0:57
  Thank you.
• 0:58
  I'm great.
• 0:59
  I'm fantastic.
• 1:00
  How are you?
• 1:00
  I'm fabulous.
• 1:02
  Congratulations on twenty years.
• 1:05
  That's a pretty big pretty big deal.
• 1:08
  we're celebrating currently the DiJulius Group's twentieth anniversary.
• 1:13
  Now you've been speaking and writing longer than that, but officially the DiJulius Group was started twenty years ago.
• 1:20
  Yeah, is that when you came aboard, switched over, companies?
• 1:24
  Oh, so our anniversary is your anniversary.
• 1:26
  For the the Julius group, yeah.
• 1:30
  Yeah, it might I feel like it might have been even earlier that we started working on that side, but since I've been along for the ride for thirty years now.
• 1:40
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:41
  No, it's a big deal.
• 1:43
  It's a big accomplishment for the team.
• 1:47
  Tell me what are you most proud of in those twenty years?
• 1:50
  The community we've built, a lot of passionate people that really subscribe to our philosophies and they swear by them and they said that it's made a big impact in their
• 2:08
  lives.
• 2:08
  That's the coolest thing.
• 2:10
  That's a lot to be proud of.
• 2:11
  We've got a lot of really nice people out there that have supported us and spread our philosophies to wherever they go.
• 2:25
  It's it's true, it's great.
• 2:27
  And I think it's this kind of work breeds that kind of relationship, don't you think?
• 2:32
  People that are attracted to improving customer experience are generally people who are great at serving and building relationships.
• 2:42
  Yeah, I always wonder when we used to put on the Customer Service Revolution Conference, I forget how many years we did it.
• 2:51
  Do you remember?
• 2:51
  I know we started in 2009 and we ended in 23 or 24.
• 2:56
  Twenty three, I think was the last year.
• 3:00
  So whatever that is, 13, 14 years, I always felt like we had a different, oh, people there, and maybe everyone thinks that of their conference, but it just, like you said, it
• 3:15
  attracts a different type of human being.
• 3:17
  Daymakers, people that are looking, you know.
• 3:22
  to do good.
• 3:23
  Like, I don't know, it sounds hokey, but it just always felt really, like a totally different vibe in that room.
• 3:30
  Yeah, I agree.
• 3:31
  I agree.
• 3:32
  I can remember somebody saying it was like a d a Disney of conferences just because of the way all of the unexpected happy moments and happy people and people that were just so glad
• 3:44
  to be there.
• 3:45
  Versus a lot of conferences that you go to, people are forced to go to, they're miserable about being there, they're skipping half the classes.
• 3:51
  Yeah, and I bet we had that, because a lot of first timers, their companies would send them, and they probably didn't know, but I think they were pleasantly surprised.
• 4:02
  Hopefully they were.
• 4:04
  so too.
• 4:05
  Yeah.
• 4:05
  I I there are a lot of elements that I miss about it.
• 4:09
  Yeah, yeah, it was a reunion.
• 4:10
  It was really good.
• 4:11
  And I think a lot of conferences are in that regard.
• 4:15
  And I think conferences, live in-person conferences in any industry are so important.
• 4:23
  It's hard to replicate that learning virtually.
• 4:27
  And you don't get the community.
• 4:29
  I think so much of learning is that banter in the hallways and later on at night, non-conference related, but it's related.
• 4:41
  Not just what you're hearing from the speaker on stage or on the breakout, but those conversations you have, whether it's with your team members you went, fellow leaders, or
• 4:51
  just people you meet and you find out what they're doing.
• 4:53
  I think that is always the best part of a conference, that, you know, it has been lost with the increased virtual presentations.
• 5:03
  I think it's one of the things that makes the customer experience executive academy so successful though too is the community that's built because they are there in person,
• 5:13
  getting together quarterly.
• 5:14
  Yeah, yeah, I they're really in a good way drinking the Kool-Aid.
• 5:18
  You know, it's funny, that term, drinking the Kool-Aid, it's a positive, but it came from such a horrible, it's a horrible metaphor.
• 5:28
  But everyone uses it like, you know, she just hasn't drank the Kool-Aid yet.
• 5:32
  You know, they aren't drinking the Kool-Aid, but anyway.
• 5:35
  All right, where are at today?
• 5:36
  You in Cleveland?
• 5:38
  I'm in Pittsburgh today.
• 5:40
  okay.
• 5:40
  Do you get any time out there?
• 5:42
  I tend to go out early in the morning and I'll do the river trails, and then later in the evening, like last night we went for a bike ride.
• 5:50
  like Cleveland.
• 5:51
  think when people go there, they're shocked and it's a booming town and growing and at least the cities I've been to.
• 5:59
  Yeah, I I would have to agree with that.
• 6:02
  They they've got a lot going on.
• 6:03
  It's good.
• 6:04
  yeah, yeah.
• 6:05
  All right, what are we talking about today?
• 6:06
  All right, today, John, there's a phrase that we hear a lot in customer experience world.
• 6:11
  Happy employees create happy customers.
• 6:15
  And I agree
• 6:16
  probably say it too much.
• 6:18
  Well, I agree with the spirit of it.
• 6:19
  Employee experience absolutely matters, and we've proven that time and again.
• 6:24
  If your employees are miserable, burned out, unsupported, or treated like a cost center, customers are gonna feel that.
• 6:32
  But I also think that the phrase can be oversimplified because a happy employee who's poorly trained can still create a terrible customer experience.
• 6:42
  A happy employee without standards can still be inconsistent.
• 6:46
  A happy employee
• 6:47
  ways, right?
• 6:48
  Right?
• 6:49
  You can have great training, but if they're a miserable employee and you didn't do a good job of filtering, but no, I, I, I, you brought the subject up to me and you're right.
• 6:58
  And I think it's an under talked about subject that a happy employee is not the magic wand by itself.
• 7:06
  True, true, true.
• 7:07
  And we spend a lot of time talking about training and how important it is to find people that are genuinely happy.
• 7:13
  But the other part of it is obviously the training, because you know, a happy employee without accountability can still miss the mark.
• 7:21
  So I just thought we'd challenge that idea a little bit today.
• 7:24
  do you think happy employees automatically create happy customers?
• 7:29
  That's too soft, too simplistic.
• 7:31
  Yeah, I mean, they're definitely a critical part of the equation.
• 7:34
  If you don't hire happy employees, I don't think you could have a great customer experience.
• 7:42
  But just hiring happy employees does not by itself produce happy customers.
• 7:48
  Because a happy person
• 7:50
  can get frustrated really quick.
• 7:52
  sure, I know for a fact that you're a very happy person.
• 7:56
  I knew you, I don't know, was it long before you started working for us?
• 8:02
  I don't know, you think we met 35 years or I don't know.
• 8:05
  I don't know.
• 8:07
  It seems like a good five years and you are a happy person.
• 8:11
  But I'm sure there's also been times in your previous career
• 8:15
  careers or with us in the different companies you've worked at with us that whatever it is, policy, a lack of systems frustrates you and you go home and you don't like that you
• 8:28
  got beat up by a customer because you had to enforce.
• 8:32
  sorry, it expired yesterday or whatever, the silly things or the we forgot to order what we promised your customer that we would and now they come in and you get, you you're the
• 8:45
  punching bag.
• 8:46
  Like no one likes that.
• 8:47
  And so lack of systems or, and again, you could speak to this better than I can, or we hire just anyone.
• 8:54
  fast track them, throw them out there, and you know, you don't want to be working with that.
• 9:00
  Or we hire not happy employees, and now you're in, it goes back to you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with, you know, that's the same thing for
• 9:11
  coworkers.
• 9:12
  If we're hiring just anyone, you're going to gravitate to that, or you're going to get the hell out of there.
• 9:17
  Neither one is good for the company.
• 9:19
  let's talk about what you said about them being ready and prepared.
• 9:23
  So I think there's a danger of confusing employee happiness with employee readiness.
• 9:29
  What's the difference between an employee who feels good at work and employee who's actually prepared to deliver a world class customer experience?
• 9:39
  Yeah, I don't know.
• 9:41
  I'm not sure I understand the question.
• 9:43
  Feels good at work.
• 9:45
  Why would you feel good at work if I didn't prepare you?
• 9:48
  'cause some people are just so genuinely happy.
• 9:51
  Yeah.
• 9:52
  Yeah, but isn't that fleeting if, like I said, I throw you to the wolves and we needed, you know, you to do whatever you're doing, selling, providing, whatever.
• 10:03
  I got to believe I don't think that.
• 10:05
  Oh, you know, again, you I think you're better at this than I.
• 10:08
  it look like to be prepared to deliver world class customer experience?
• 10:13
  So what's the expression?
• 10:14
  And it's used for everything, but let's use it for hiring and training.
• 10:17
  The best time to hire a new employee is two months ago, right?
• 10:22
  Because if you are a good company that's obsessive with the experience, the technical expertise, all those things that you should be obsessed with,
• 10:33
  you know, and you need someone today, they're not gonna be probably of value for, you know, several weeks if not several months.
• 10:40
  Because, you know, you hire someone today and you're short staff, you're compromised.
• 10:45
  Even if that's the greatest employee in the world and you did all the right things in hiring them.
• 10:50
  you're still setting them up for failure if you put them out there too quickly.
• 10:55
  So that's why the best time to hire someone is two months ago before you need them.
• 10:59
  So you can put them through the onboarding, the technical training and the service aptitude training.
• 11:09
  So when they are set free,
• 11:12
  and that could be a crawl, walk, and run situation, they're not giving a less than spectacular experience that your customers, clients, patients, tenants, guests are used
• 11:24
  to.
• 11:24
  And that's a big thing that I always say, if I have less of an experience at your business because he or she is new,
• 11:33
  That's not right, right?
• 11:35
  Unless you're gonna give me a discount, which no one wants to do.
• 11:39
  But why should my experience suffer?
• 11:41
  Because you threw someone out there sooner than they would.
• 11:45
  Now the employee gets blamed.
• 11:47
  I'm irritated.
• 11:48
  Why did I get the bumbling idiot that doesn't know how to look up a product, you know, is pausing, is taking forever, you know, is faking it till they make it, all those terms.
• 12:01
  But it's not the employee's fault.
• 12:03
  I think rarely, I think over
• 12:05
  90 % of the things that go wrong in a customer facing situation is not the customer facing employees fault.
• 12:13
  I think it's they didn't train them properly, didn't certify them, didn't make sure that they were ready to give the experience that hopefully your company has the reputation for
• 12:24
  giving.
• 12:25
  Right, happiness won't save the interaction if something goes if something goes wrong.
• 12:30
  And I don't know, I mean, maybe I'm missing it, but do you really think there's people that could maintain being happy at work if they're stressed out because they're uneducated
• 12:41
  with the system, lack of training?
• 12:43
  We have, you you have to enforce policy and you're getting beat up all the time from the customer because of it.
• 12:51
  Like, I don't know, do you think, do you think, I gotta assume Spirit Airlines stumbled on some happy people that they hired by accident, right?
• 13:00
  But I can't believe they would have been, you know, don't know, it'd be hard, I don't know, you might know better than me or whatever that they could have been, you know,
• 13:08
  stayed happy at work with all, you know, the beat up they took.
• 13:13
  from the Spirit Airlines policies and, you know, checking my bag and forcing me to pay another 50, 60, 75, you know, all those gimmicks of hidden fees and all that.
• 13:26
  I don't know.
• 13:26
  What's your thought on it?
• 13:27
  I I think they leave.
• 13:29
  I think if you're a genuinely happy person and you're put in a position where you're asked to do things that don't agree with the core of who you are, I think leave.
• 13:39
  I mean
• 13:40
  I think it's probably no different than relationships and I'm not the last person to be given relationship advice, but uh a toxic environment is a toxic environment.
• 13:51
  And I think that's why we lose a lot of good people, companies.
• 13:54
  Yeah, I I think so too.
• 13:56
  I mean I think there are some you don't have to be as bad as a spirit airlines.
• 14:01
  But if you don't train people on how to handle a difficult customer when when the situation comes up, that just puts puts people in it such an awkward position.
• 14:13
  Right.
• 14:13
  I mean you have companies that spend a lot of money on, you know, doing employee engagement surveys, perks, flexibility, recognition, culture building, and those things
• 14:24
  matter.
• 14:24
  Yeah, exactly.
• 14:27
  Those things matter and that it helps create a better culture.
• 14:32
  But if you don't train them on how to handle the difficult things when they come up, that still that still hurts.
• 14:39
  Well, still, difficult, I hate even calling it difficult customers because I feel like we're disparaging the customer.
• 14:46
  Because you and I have been difficult customers and most of the time I'd like to think it was justified that, know, why, you know, whatever.
• 14:55
  But yeah, it's all the things that the 10 service aptitude skills, besides the technical, which I think,
• 15:02
  Companies are stronger at training.
• 15:04
  They could probably be better, but training that, you know, here's how you process an order, you know, all that thing.
• 15:10
  know, greet a customer, book an appointment, you know, whatever.
• 15:14
  Do their taxes.
• 15:16
  That's the technical side.
• 15:17
  But the 10 service aptitude skills and the empathy, the compassion and empathy, bringing the positive energy, the enthusiasm, the curiosity, listening.
• 15:29
  make it a brilliant comeback when something goes wrong with a customer, problem solve, those I think are definitely not, I think too many leaders assume people bring those skill
• 15:39
  sets and I think that's where the big mistake happens.
• 15:43
  So if somebody comes in with those skill sets, how do you keep them there?
• 15:49
  Someone comes in and they're a happy person, how do you keep them happy?
• 15:52
  How do you measure what's going on?
• 15:55
  I think a lot of times companies think they have the right things in place.
• 15:59
  They think they have training to provide, you know, what the employee needs.
• 16:05
  But if you're a happy person and it's not working out for you, how does how does the company know?
• 16:10
  Well, obviously, think turnover is, employee turnover is uh a great indicator.
• 16:17
  You have your one-offs, that's fine, you know, but you know, when you're losing good people, that should be, you know, alarm.
• 16:25
  Now, it could be pay, something you have to look at, but whenever I'm asked,
• 16:30
  I don't know what my biggest mistake is or what would I tell my 25 year old self or whatever, which I think is really the same question or biggest regret, professionally
• 16:40
  would be that you never trade your reputation for sales.
• 16:47
  And that is, again, hiring just anyone or.
• 16:52
  fast-tracking, you know, a potentially good employee.
• 16:56
  Because what happens is, and looking the other way, with negative toxic employees, and we've been guilty of that.
• 17:05
  I think every company has, but you know, I know that's my, you know, one of my biggest...
• 17:10
  regrets or wish I could do over was we needed five more employees.
• 17:17
  And now, you know, Joe, who's been with us, who brings in a lot of money, but he's a bad attitude and he's toxic and he's talking in everyone's ear in the back room, and he's not
• 17:32
  following our standards and all that.
• 17:35
  We make excuses for him, he just needs more training, no he's just going through things, you know, and I do believe at first that should be explored, but the bottom line is we're
• 17:45
  keeping Joe because we don't want to need a sixth person, we need five, we don't want to need a sixth person, and he brings in a lot of money.
• 17:52
  every time we've ever done that, and then when Joe leaves, whether we've manned up and got rid of him, or he just left on his own, all of a sudden the turnover stops.
• 18:03
  all of sudden people come forward and say, I was just about to leave because I couldn't work with him anymore.
• 18:08
  And you you feel like idiots.
• 18:10
  It's kind of like when you went through a breakup and then all your friends, family, and everyone said, it's about time.
• 18:17
  And you're like, why didn't you tell me that sooner?
• 18:19
  Not that we would have listened, right?
• 18:21
  But, but I don't does that make sense?
• 18:24
  And I know you've lived it as a leader and probably as an employee, you know, on both sides of the fence.
• 18:31
  much time should a company spend on trying to fix a Joe?
• 18:35
  Do you have somebody that's great at aspects of their position, but you find out they have maybe not the best attitude?
• 18:44
  How much time do you spend coaching that?
• 18:46
  um Yeah, I don't know if there's a number there, you know, so I have always said when an employee is not where we want them, the first thing we gotta do is look in the mirror.
• 18:57
  Did we hire them properly?
• 19:01
  Did we select them properly?
• 19:03
  Did we set expectations properly or?
• 19:06
  Did we say, Denise, this is the greatest job in the world?
• 19:10
  You know, get raises every week, you get, you you're gonna make a ton of money.
• 19:15
  And we all go home happy and singing kubaya.
• 19:18
  And I know that's an exaggeration, but I think that's sometimes what we tend to, companies tend to focus on and say, all right, Denise, someone in the position you're coming into,
• 19:29
  let me tell you what the 1 % does, right?
• 19:33
  They have, well, that's not fair.
• 19:36
  There's a reason why they're the 1%.
• 19:40
  We gotta be realistic.
• 19:41
  And am I telling you what it took for them to be the 1 %?
• 19:45
  Well, Dennis, I gotta be honest with you.
• 19:46
  I they work 50, 60 hours and they eat, sleep, and drink.
• 19:50
  Am I telling you what it's gonna be or am I just telling you that 1 % makes all this money, but I didn't tell you what it's gonna take?
• 19:59
  All right, so it's setting the expectations.
• 20:02
  It's making sure you know what's gonna be expected of you, making sure you know, and we're still pre-employment here, the interview process, but making sure you know what we expect
• 20:14
  of our employees in all those aspects, and they're gonna be held accountable to this.
• 20:19
  Then the second part of that is, did we put you through the proper training?
• 20:24
  Or did we just blast you, tell you to read this, watch this, and get out there and do it?
• 20:28
  And then the third is, are we coaching you and coaching you up?
• 20:32
  And then finally, I guess, if I could say, we've done all that, or we've gone back and addressed all that, my kind of rule of thumb,
• 20:42
  and I know this isn't super scientific, is if we hire a group of new employees, I'm so excited.
• 20:48
  Like, this is a good group.
• 20:50
  Like, I've heard great things, I've spoken to them on orientation, and you know, I love, I mean, you could tell this is gonna be a good group.
• 20:57
  And then I think, but I go and tell Eric, their manager, you know, or Ashley, or whoever, hey, but just make sure they don't.
• 21:06
  come in contact with Denise.
• 21:08
  Make sure they don't eat lunch with Denise, right?
• 21:11
  You know, I don't want them poisoned.
• 21:13
  Well, then why do we have Denise?
• 21:15
  Again, assuming that we did all the mirror auditing of Denise before that.
• 21:22
  And really think on this, you are better at this than I am, because you've been in the trenches, leadership trenches, growing a business, businesses for me.
• 21:34
  And so you've dealt with the front line a lot more than I have in the past 15 years, if you will.
• 21:41
  Yeah, and I think there's there's definitely a percentage that goes to hiring, right?
• 21:46
  And you know, did we make a good hire?
• 21:49
  Did we hire proactively or reactively?
• 21:53
  But then you can hire somebody that's happy and through the course of their tenure they become unhappy.
• 22:00
  And whether it's a work situation, whether it's a personal situation, you know, they're just tired of doing what they're doing, whatever it might be, they're not that same person
• 22:09
  that they were.
• 22:10
  The some of the magic has disappeared.
• 22:13
  So
• 22:14
  I also think the burnout is real, but I think it's misdiagnosed.
• 22:21
  I don't think someone comes burned out from doing the job too long, to a certain degree.
• 22:27
  I think they're burned out from not getting the results.
• 22:32
  they're hoping for.
• 22:33
  And I don't mean the raises and all that and the promotions, but again, if the customer is beating them up, and I'm not blaming the customer here, I'm blaming the organization, the
• 22:46
  policy and enforcement and all that, and the coworkers are toxic, I think that causes burnout.
• 22:53
  Yeah, I I think there's a couple of things there.
• 22:55
  So doing the same job does that cause burnout?
• 22:58
  It might cause boredom.
• 22:59
  I don't know that it causes boredom.
• 23:01
  I don't think there are many people that do the same job and get burned out.
• 23:05
  I think they do the same job and something else gets layered in and something else gets layered in and something else gets layered in and then they become burned out.
• 23:13
  Some you know, they're losing staff.
• 23:15
  They just I just talked to a friend of mine who,
• 23:18
  took a new position and they're short staffed and she has to hire people,
• 23:23
  So it's created extra burden on everyone, right?
• 23:26
  So you have ten people in a department, you lose four, now you have six people trying to do the work of ten.
• 23:33
  And that's where people start to feel burned out, I think, in those kinds of situations.
• 23:38
  And especially when maybe they don't rehire.
• 23:41
  Maybe they lay a lot of people off and just expect whoever's left to to pick up that burden.
• 23:48
  Well, the other thing, you're also being asked to do positions work that you graduated from, you got promoted from.
• 23:55
  And that's fine, we all gotta be a team player and be willing to get back in the trenches, hopefully for short periods of time to bridge the gap.
• 24:05
  But I was just speaking to a client and they were talking about uh that.
• 24:10
  they weren't looking to replace people and that now they're an overpaid whatever, like they're doing a menial job and they're not able to do job they're paid for and hired for.
• 24:25
  now I'm paying someone $25, $30 an hour that wasn't what they were supposed to do.
• 24:36
  Yeah, yeah, that's not a that's not
• 24:39
  be blamed for not accomplishing the job that they're supposed to be doing because they can't get to it.
• 24:45
  Yeah.
• 24:45
  You you also brought up results.
• 24:48
  They're not getting the results a I don't know what the quotient is, but people that are happiest in their jobs are ones that actually complete things.
• 24:58
  They have productivity through the day.
• 25:03
  Daniel Pink, love who we just had on the podcast last week, I think, was in one of his TED Talks, which is in the top 20, I think, all time.
• 25:15
  I don't know if that was a TED Talk.
• 25:16
  Was his animated one a TED Talk, or no, that just might have been a video?
• 25:23
  Yeah, I think it's just a video, but it's fabulous.
• 25:25
  Yeah, and he talks about the three things that make people, and I'm not using the correct term, happiest at work, is mastery, autonomy, and purpose.
• 25:33
  It's kind of like where you're going.
• 25:35
  Mastery, they're getting better, right?
• 25:37
  And I always, the way I say it is if I'm building your resume, you're less likely to pull out your resume and use it.
• 25:45
  Right?
• 25:46
  But the moment I stop adding, as a boss, leader, whatever you wanna call it, the moment I stop adding value to your resume, you might get the hell out of there.
• 25:56
  Because you're hitting a ceiling, you know.
• 25:58
  personally, professionally in your life that is gonna provide no value.
• 26:03
  So that we're educating you, making you the smartest person at your job, and that you won't have those stressors and anxieties that you don't know how to deal with stuff.
• 26:12
  And then autonomy, that you have the freedom to think on your own, ignore policy when it's necessary, make things right when it's necessary, and work on creative stuff, and then
• 26:25
  purpose.
• 26:26
  that we're purpose maximizers, that you're not just trading hours for dollars.
• 26:31
  And then the other thing I'm thinking of as you're asking this is what we featured in the employee, and we featured all this in the Employee Experience Revolution book, but Jaco,
• 26:40
  Jaco, the Navy Seal guy, my God, Willett, Willett, I mean, shame on me.
• 26:46
  He writes in his book,
• 26:47
  that there's no bad teams, there's only bad leaders.
• 26:51
  And yeah, I don't think anybody ever, know, most people don't take a job thinking, I want to fail at this job, I want to have the worst attitude on this team, I want to be a
• 27:00
  bitcher and a moaner and all that.
• 27:02
  Look, you can have somebody that comes into a job that's not I dunno not excited about the job necessarily, but a good leader can change all that.
• 27:11
  Yeah, yeah.
• 27:12
  And the storytelling and the opportunities, that this doesn't have to be a temporary transitional job.
• 27:18
  That if you help us look at the people before you, they started off in your position and now they've been here 30 years and they have equity in a company and all that.
• 27:28
  Yeah.
• 27:29
  you brought up autonomy and I think that's a big one that definitely lends to happiness.
• 27:34
  What happens though if you give an employee autonomy, but you haven't really taught them everything that's required to empower them.
• 27:43
  to really make the right decision,
• 27:45
  It's it's great to to set them off on their own, give them autonomy, to come up with ideas and get crazy, but should there be some kind of parameter?
• 27:54
  I don't know, I'm thinking of the opposite that we deal with when we train, know, when we do the Above and Beyond workshops and the employees in the workshops will say, listen,
• 28:06
  we've been hearing this for decades.
• 28:08
  Go Above and Beyond.
• 28:09
  But the few times I have, I got in trouble.
• 28:13
  Well, I didn't mean that Denise, I didn't mean give away, you know, this, that, well, what do you mean?
• 28:18
  Right?
• 28:18
  Because, you know, so now I'm just gonna shut down and never do it.
• 28:22
  But then the owner, GM, whatever gets a call.
• 28:26
  about how poorly you handled it, and then we come and say, why did you let a customer leave upset?
• 28:31
  Again, I never think that's the employee's fault.
• 28:33
  It's because the last time I did this or someone else did it, they got reprimanded, they got written up because, know, so, I don't know.
• 28:41
  What do you think?
• 28:43
  Take me to where you're thinking here of, because I don't like to give parameters, like,
• 28:49
  Obviously it's a new employee, like someone like you, even someone like you when you were an employee, whatever you think is the right call.
• 28:56
  Maybe we can coach you back and say it didn't have to be this, I'd much rather, you I always say, you'll never get in trouble for something you do, you'll get in trouble for
• 29:04
  something you don't do.
• 29:05
  So if you're too generous,
• 29:07
  I'm okay with it.
• 29:08
  That doesn't mean we're giving away $100,000 contracts or refunds, but I don't know, maybe steer me to.
• 29:16
  it doesn't to you.
• 29:16
  And it doesn't it doesn't to me, but there's experience behind that.
• 29:21
  If you have someone that's new, how do they know what's okay to give away, what's not okay to give away?
• 29:26
  They may not have that general sense.
• 29:31
  Well, they may have the service aptitude that they want to make that customer happy.
• 29:35
  You know, and they are gonna do anything within their power, but what's really within their power?
• 29:41
  If if they know that, gosh, if I gave this person their entire service free, they'll be happy.
• 29:49
  Well that service could be a twenty thousand dollar service.
• 29:52
  And was that was that necessary?
• 29:55
  Maybe.
• 29:55
  And is the client worth millions and twenty thousand is, you know
• 29:59
  but you're right.
• 30:00
  An employee with less than a year seniority can't probably make that distinction and they need more guidance.
• 30:07
  know, the Ritz-Carlton's famous for they give every employee $2,000 to make something right.
• 30:13
  And, you know, I think when you hear that, you're like, what?
• 30:17
  But they really...
• 30:18
  use that.
• 30:19
  They rarely use a tenth of that, but they know they can.
• 30:23
  But, you know, I think you bring up a good point.
• 30:25
  You probably need some guidance.
• 30:27
  You need some coaching.
• 30:28
  Maybe if you're new employee, you know, when it gets to a certain point, you know, come and ask, you know, a leader, you know, for help.
• 30:39
  I just don't, I also on the flip side don't want
• 30:42
  them to just saying, that's above my pay grade, let me transfer you to corporate.
• 30:46
  Because no customer likes that.
• 30:48
  It goes back to, if it gets to me, it's free, handle it.
• 30:52
  But you do bring up a good point that has nuances of a new employee, a last season employee doesn't know where to draw the line.
• 31:02
  Is there a method for teaching that?
• 31:04
  Is it just experience?
• 31:05
  Is it osmosis by working next to other people who know it?
• 31:10
  So in our service, zero risk workshop methodology commandment, companies come up with their, how they want employees to handle something.
• 31:22
  So Chick-fil-A uses last, listen, apologize, solve and think.
• 31:26
  So let's just use that one.
• 31:28
  So, you know, there's a...
• 31:30
  Listen, apologize, it could be a no-fault apology.
• 31:34
  The solve is the key.
• 31:36
  And we always say there's kind of three types of situations to solve for.
• 31:42
  A, there's little inconvenience caused.
• 31:46
  So, you we made you wait five minutes, 10 minutes, or you had to come back up and, you you asked for a Diet Coke and we gave you a regular.
• 31:54
  you know, I don't think we have to give anything away for free when it's minor convenience.
• 31:58
  It's when it gets more complicated and there's bigger inconvenience caused and something needs to be done and something needs to be done could be a minor fix or it could be, you
• 32:10
  know, the major.
• 32:11
  That's, think, where we tell them, you know,
• 32:15
  get someone with more seniority, your direct leader, someone to help you with that until you're probably at that zero risk level.
• 32:24
  those are, and then the third thing is when you're really bringing out the big guns and we've really, in the salon, I had a woman call me up.
• 32:35
  because she got her hair done, I don't remember what, color, cut, whatever, she got shampooed, and when she was brought over to the chair, the assistant to the hairdresser
• 32:47
  was asked to comb it out, and she grabbed a comb with a razor in it, and literally started slicing her hair off.
• 32:54
  Yeah, did you ever hear that story?
• 32:55
  So this is, I mean, it's horrible.
• 32:58
  It was in December, I remember this, it was in December.
• 33:01
  I was doing a workshop on customer service.
• 33:04
  for New Day USA and for some reason, not for some reason, but at lunch I checked my messages and I don't know if it was her that called me or the salon that told me to call
• 33:15
  her and they told me what happened.
• 33:17
  So A, you never wanna hear that story.
• 33:19
  B, I feel like the biggest hypocrite because I just am in the middle of doing a workshop on how to make customers happy.
• 33:25
  So I'm on, you know.
• 33:27
  this is the worst thing you could do to someone is literally tear their hair out of their head.
• 33:32
  So she's gonna be irate, she's gonna be talking lawsuits, which is par for the course.
• 33:38
  And I call her up and I ask her how she's doing, which was a stupid question.
• 33:46
  And she said, great.
• 33:47
  I'm like, how can you be doing great?
• 33:49
  And she was like, oh, John, there's worse things in the world.
• 33:51
  I didn't know her and I couldn't believe her attitude.
• 33:54
  And so this is a technique I use.
• 33:57
  I don't know if it's a good technique, but I throw in things that, you know, to demonstrate I understand what she's going through.
• 34:04
  I'm like, not only did we tear your hair out,
• 34:07
  but it's the middle of the holidays.
• 34:09
  It was like the middle of December.
• 34:11
  And I'm sure you have some holiday parties to go to.
• 34:15
  Like I'm adding fuel on the fire to make sure she understands um I'm taking this serious.
• 34:20
  And she was so cool.
• 34:22
  Couldn't happen to a better client from a standpoint of how well she had.
• 34:26
  She was, no John, I'm Jewish and our, help me, remind me what goes on in December.
• 34:31
  Hanukkah, Hanukkah just ended.
• 34:34
  So I don't have any more parties to go to.
• 34:37
  And I'm like, what is wrong with you?
• 34:39
  why?
• 34:39
  And she was so nice.
• 34:40
  She says, the only thing I want, John, is just that you make sure that, you know, assistant doesn't do that to anyone again.
• 34:47
  I'm like, she was the coolest person.
• 34:49
  Like, I was just like, you know.
• 34:51
  And I'm sure we overcompensated and, you yeah, I got it overcorrect.
• 34:56
  So that's another thing.
• 34:57
  When a company truly drops the ball and it's bad, there's three things that you need to do.
• 35:05
  One, address it immediately, take blame, and it should be by the highest ranking person.
• 35:12
  You know, and this is anything, you know, and when you see in the news, the first thing someone do, when United dragged that doctor off the plane, before the video footage of
• 35:21
  other people on the plane came out, you know, the CEO of United at the time said, no, no, no, he was unruly, he was, you know, he had to be removed.
• 35:30
  So covering your ass is not the right thing.
• 35:33
  And then when all the videos came out from the passengers, it was nothing like that.
• 35:37
  The second thing,
• 35:38
  All right, now I gotta remember.
• 35:40
  I talk about in the book and in our workshop.
• 35:42
  First thing is take accountability, own it, and it should be the highest ranking person.
• 35:48
  I know the third thing is then over-correct.
• 35:50
  Over-correct.
• 35:51
  Like, they should be blown away by how you're handling it.
• 35:55
  know, like, it wasn't that bad.
• 35:57
  No, it is that bad.
• 35:59
  I don't remember the second thing, but I might have combined the first two by addressing immediately by the highest ranking person in the company and overcorrect.
• 36:09
  Makes a difference.
• 36:10
  That's when it's really bad.
• 36:11
  Ooh, ooh, I I'm just still picturing this.
• 36:14
  I I feel bad for the assistant too, who was not
• 36:18
  Educated on that we have combs with razors in it.
• 36:22
  And just for the listeners, we're talking about an assistant means they're new.
• 36:26
  You know, they're relatively new.
• 36:30
  So she was put in that situation.
• 36:32
  Yeah, they're not actually on the floor to cut hair, they're to assist a uh another designer.
• 36:39
  can't believe there's combs with razors in them that are...
• 36:43
  I mean, I understand that.
• 36:44
  I th I've seen the technique when people but
• 36:47
  But they, I don't know, because I haven't been involved in our salons like that, but hopefully they're clearly different looking and, you know, they don't look like a normal
• 36:58
  comb.
• 36:58
  I don't know, but yeah, that was a very bad thing.
• 37:01
  the at the ends of the hair and not at the roots.
• 37:04
  Yeah, I think it was the latter.
• 37:08
  It was a bad f-up.
• 37:10
  And anyone else in the world would have been warranted to do brand terrorism, sue us, all those things.
• 37:21
  they would have had every right.
• 37:22
  And this woman felt bad for me that I was making the call to her.
• 37:27
  It just shows you, know, people aren't out to take advantage of you.
• 37:31
  Correct, correct.
• 37:32
  Yeah.
• 37:33
  And and especially if you have provided them great service in the past.
• 37:38
  Yeah, I think that's what we had going for us.
• 37:39
  I think she was a VIP and we had a lot of equity with her and she was absolutely a lot more forgiving than I think she should have been, than we expected her to be.
• 37:50
  So anyone were thinking about coming into John Roberts, we've removed the razors in the combs.
• 37:57
  Probably isn't a good advertisement for John Roberts Spa.
• 38:01
  Going back to happy employees, one other things, I don't know if we touched on this was feeling valued.
• 38:07
  I think that's a big one too.
• 38:09
  You can hire people that are happy and yet if they don't feel valued, they won't they won't stay that way.
• 38:15
  you know, and a big part is, and we're all have been guilty of it, and it's the same as being a parent, your worst acting child, hopefully in the moment, gets all your attention.
• 38:28
  And then, you know,
• 38:29
  the good kid, you your good children who are getting straight A's and doing their chores and all the other stuff are being ignored.
• 38:38
  And that's the same thing in business.
• 38:39
  And one of the exercises we do in a leadership workshop is, all right, Denise, write down your direct reports.
• 38:47
  And let's say you have 10, all right.
• 38:49
  Of the coaching of the, you know, time, write down how much time you spend with each one.
• 38:56
  And always the one that gets the bulk
• 38:58
  your highest maintenance employee that doesn't get it, that you're constantly, you know, all those things.
• 39:04
  Well, you're ignoring your rock stars, your silent heroes.
• 39:08
  And that's the, you know, the nature of the job.
• 39:12
  And that's, you know, you got to fight because you got these people, unsung heroes that do their job, come in every day, do exactly what you've asked them to do.
• 39:20
  Our reason why someone's not suing us because we just, you know, cut their hair out with a razor.
• 39:25
  You know, that's a good point.
• 39:27
  I probably missed an opportunity to celebrate the person that she goes to that she loves.
• 39:33
  I definitely didn't recognize that that's why we didn't get sued.
• 39:37
  And only dealing with how did we...
• 39:40
  you know, someone be untrained to, you know, do that.
• 39:44
  So yeah, we have to spend, caught you doing something right.
• 39:49
  We have to spend a lot more time catching people doing something right and giving them the high five moments.
• 39:54
  Um, you know, you made me think of something else.
• 39:57
  Not only I'm gonna say, can we, but I know myself this is so true.
• 40:02
  be guilty of not just ignoring the ones that do well because they're they're no issue and you know they're good and you know they're gonna take care of everything they need to take
• 40:11
  care of, but I tend to put higher expectations on them also.
• 40:14
  Yeah.
• 40:17
  And then when they're not as high, you know.
• 40:19
  Why haven't you, you know why haven't you been this high with because this is where I expect you when, you know, there are other people that are floating along here.
• 40:27
  I I tend to I know, I tend to put higher expectations on people that I know can achieve them too.
• 40:33
  Well, yeah, and my...
• 40:35
  earlier career before I became an entrepreneur in 1993, opening in slums.
• 40:42
  I was a UPS driver, as you know.
• 40:44
  And I remember when I was a UPS driver, I was a swing driver, which meant I didn't have my own route.
• 40:52
  covered for vacationing drivers or drivers that were sick that day or took a day off.
• 40:59
  And it was a sucky job because I didn't know the routes.
• 41:04
  where the long tenure driver had their own route.
• 41:07
  They knew every house address, back door, everything.
• 41:11
  And when you're a swing driver, every day you're on a new route and you don't know anything.
• 41:18
  So, but that's the nature of the job, whatever.
• 41:20
  But I remember I used to get so mad because I was a good swing driver.
• 41:25
  They could put me out there and I would figure it out.
• 41:28
  And so then when I was done at four o'clock or four,
• 41:31
  I'd have to call in and they'd tell me I'd have to go help the other swing drivers who were just, you know, floundering.
• 41:39
  And I would always think, you know, why am I being punished for doing a good job?
• 41:44
  Like I want to go home.
• 41:45
  I want to get home.
• 41:46
  You know, I just cranked.
• 41:48
  And now I got, you know, if I did a bad job, I wouldn't have to go rescue the other people.
• 41:53
  So.
• 41:54
  You'd be rescued.
• 41:55
  You'd have people helping
• 41:56
  right, right.
• 41:57
  But here's my thought as I'm thinking about this, we're guilty of that, like what you just brought up.
• 42:02
  And I don't know the right answer, right?
• 42:06
  But hey, we need you to pick up the slack over here because she's new or...
• 42:12
  She's just not as fast as you are and all those things.
• 42:16
  And one of the best things that I always tell people when we show a video of horrible customer service is we all laugh at it and say, yeah, that's absurd.
• 42:26
  But I always say, and this goes with the same example is, okay, but ask yourself, your company guilty of that in some sort of form?
• 42:35
  And every horrible customer service thing I've seen, I have done that and say, yes, not to that degree, but we do do that.
• 42:45
  And we just can't laugh and say, my God, that Spirit Airlines is the worst.
• 42:49
  We've done similar things, not to the scale, but in force policy.
• 42:55
  for a very stupid reason when policy shouldn't have been enforced.
• 42:59
  So it's really important that, you know, as a leader, you think, all right, can we be guilty of that?
• 43:04
  Can someone on our team take that literally and punish a customer because of that?
• 43:09
  So.
• 43:10
  Yeah, all these things to think about.
• 43:11
  So, to the topic at hand, the goal is not just
• 43:15
  happy employees.
• 43:16
  The goal is happy employees who feel valued, prepared, trusted, and responsible for the experience they create.
• 43:25
  I mean there's that's the link between the employee and customer experience, not just happiness as a perk, but happiness
• 43:32
  50 % of it is make sure you hire happy people.
• 43:36
  I know that sounds really simple, but your interview process has to make sure that they have those qualities, they genuinely like other people, they're enthusiastic, they're
• 43:47
  positive, and they're friendly.
• 43:49
  Those stuff, you can't teach.
• 43:51
  You can improve, but you can't teach.
• 43:53
  That's 50 % then the other 50 % is keep them that and how do you keep them?
• 43:57
  Prepare them, mastery, autonomy, purpose, recognition, all those things.
• 44:02
  Great.
• 44:02
  Well thank you, John, for another enlightening episode of the Customer Service Revolution podcast.
• 44:08
  And again, happy twentieth anniversary.
• 44:10
  Thank you, Denise, and thank you for helping us achieve 20 years.
• 44:15
  Glad to be here.