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The Psychology Behind Your Spending · A Little Bit Richer

• 0:01
  Iona Bain: Hello, I'm Iona Bain, and welcome to A Little Bit
• 0:04
  Iona Bain: Richer, brought to you by Legal and General. Now, author
• 0:09
  Iona Bain: of Money on Your Mind: The Psychology Behind Your Financial
• 0:12
  Iona Bain: Habits Vicky Reynal is here to explain the psychology of
• 0:16
  Iona Bain: our spending. Vicky is a financial psychotherapist and runs her
• 0:20
  Iona Bain: own clinic in London. She offers psychological support to people
• 0:25
  Iona Bain: with money worries, such as overspending or debt, and combines
• 0:29
  Iona Bain: this with guidance on making healthier money decisions. She also
• 0:33
  Iona Bain: writes a weekly column for The Daily Mail, answering reader
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  Iona Bain: questions as their financial psychotherapist. Welcome, Vicky.
• 0:41
  Vicky Reynal: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
• 0:43
  Iona Bain: Firstly, what is financial psychotherapy and how is it different
• 0:48
  Iona Bain: from financial coaching?
• 0:50
  Vicky Reynal: What I'm trying to help people do is unpick what
• 0:54
  Vicky Reynal: feelings or emotions might be driving their money choices. People
• 0:58
  Vicky Reynal: might come because they're overly generous and they don't know
• 1:01
  Vicky Reynal: why that is, and they know it's against what's best
• 1:05
  Vicky Reynal: in their financial interests but they can't stop themselves. What
• 1:08
  Vicky Reynal: I often find is that there's feelings that are unconscious that
• 1:12
  Vicky Reynal: are getting in the way. My job is to help
• 1:15
  Vicky Reynal: them unpack that and understand it so that they can
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  Vicky Reynal: change the way they behave with money.
• 1:20
  Iona Bain: I'm imagining that your upbringing is really important in shaping
• 1:24
  Iona Bain: your relationship with money. I've heard that you form your
• 1:29
  Iona Bain: attitude to money by the age of eight. I'm wondering,
• 1:33
  Iona Bain: is there any truth in that?
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  Vicky Reynal: There is some truth. I wouldn't pinpoint it to a
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  Vicky Reynal: specific age because I think that a lot of experiences
• 1:41
  Vicky Reynal: that we have in later years will shape our relationship
• 1:45
  Vicky Reynal: with money in the longterm. Of course, the money lessons
• 1:48
  Vicky Reynal: that our parents teach us growing up will have an
• 1:51
  Vicky Reynal: impact on our relationship with money. If they tell us, "
• 1:54
  Vicky Reynal: Don't be too greedy," or, " Money corrupts you," that will
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  Vicky Reynal: be in the back of your mind as you're trying
• 2:00
  Vicky Reynal: to ask for a raise, for example. But there's a
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  Vicky Reynal: lot of non- money related experiences when we're young that
• 2:07
  Vicky Reynal: will shape what we do with money when we're old.
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  Vicky Reynal: Let's say you've been bullied a lot in school, or
• 2:13
  Vicky Reynal: you felt different, you might find that, as an adult,
• 2:16
  Vicky Reynal: you tend to overspend when you're out with friends. It's
• 2:20
  Vicky Reynal: because you're trying to fit in.
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  Iona Bain: It's like you're trying to buy acceptance.
• 2:23
  Vicky Reynal: Exactly. Which isn't about the money lessons learned, it's about
• 2:27
  Vicky Reynal: something very different. Or you might see people who really
• 2:30
  Vicky Reynal: struggle to spend money on themselves, so they become very
• 2:33
  Vicky Reynal: frugal. That might come from a feeling that you're not
• 2:37
  Vicky Reynal: really deserving of the good things that money can buy,
• 2:40
  Vicky Reynal: that you feel guilty any time you spend anything on
• 2:44
  Vicky Reynal: yourself. That might come from experiences growing up in which
• 2:48
  Vicky Reynal: maybe your parents were not paying a lot of attention
• 2:51
  Vicky Reynal: to you, or harsh teachers, or whatnot, that left you with
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  Vicky Reynal: a really small confidence in yourself.
• 2:57
  Iona Bain: And low self-esteem.
• 2:57
  Vicky Reynal: Exactly.
• 2:57
  Iona Bain: Someone, I imagine, could be a big spender as an
• 3:01
  Iona Bain: adult, but maybe their parents are quite frugal actually. Can
• 3:05
  Iona Bain: you explain why there can be those kinds of differences?
• 3:08
  Vicky Reynal: Our relationship with money has to do with so many
• 3:11
  Vicky Reynal: different psychological factors, like our sense of deservedness, our personality,
• 3:16
  Vicky Reynal: which is why you see in families with many children
• 3:19
  Vicky Reynal: how siblings might end up having very different attitudes to
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  Vicky Reynal: money even though they have the same parents teaching the
• 3:25
  Vicky Reynal: same lessons. Because what drives our overspending, it could be
• 3:29
  Vicky Reynal: coming from social pressures. Lifestyle inflation is very common. That
• 3:34
  Vicky Reynal: term basically describes a phenomenon, when your income rises, your
• 3:38
  Vicky Reynal: spending rises with it. Your costs go up and you
• 3:41
  Vicky Reynal: end up in a worse financial situation on this higher
• 3:44
  Vicky Reynal: salary than you before in the first place. Sometimes what's
• 3:48
  Vicky Reynal: driving it is internal rather than external. If we don't
• 3:51
  Vicky Reynal: feel lovable enough, we might go out there and spend
• 3:54
  Vicky Reynal: on maybe beauty products or gadgets. It's that internal insecurity
• 4:00
  Vicky Reynal: that might be manifesting through their spending.
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  Iona Bain: Well, speaking of social pressures, they influence our spending behaviors
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  Iona Bain: in so many ways. Can you give me a few
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  Iona Bain: examples?
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  Vicky Reynal: Yes. The fear of missing out is one that particularly
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  Vicky Reynal: young people often talk about. There's a lot of insecurity,
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  Vicky Reynal: sometimes of exclusion, sometimes it's about not being able to
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  Vicky Reynal: feel part of the conversation next time you're with them.
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  Vicky Reynal: And even fear of rejection or abandonment in some cases,
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  Vicky Reynal: so you'll do it literally at all costs. You'll go
• 4:32
  Vicky Reynal: to that wedding abroad that you know you can't afford.
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  Vicky Reynal: People can be so ashamed of admitting that they can't
• 4:39
  Vicky Reynal: afford something. But actually, what they end up finding most
• 4:43
  Vicky Reynal: of the times is that somebody else in that group
• 4:45
  Vicky Reynal: is just relieved that they said something.
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  Iona Bain: Yeah.
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  Vicky Reynal: Maybe there is a cheaper restaurant we can go to.
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  Vicky Reynal: But we often feel ashamed and alone with our money
• 4:55
  Vicky Reynal: worries, and that stops us from questioning these social pressures.
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  Iona Bain: And social media as well must be playing quite a
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  Iona Bain: big role. How are you seeing that reflected in the cases
• 5:06
  Iona Bain: that you deal with?
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  Vicky Reynal: If we are curious about comparing upwards, well, the algorithms
• 5:12
  Vicky Reynal: will pick that up and just feed us more of
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  Vicky Reynal: that content. Which creates an illusion, because what we see
• 5:19
  Vicky Reynal: is people spending and we're assuming that they're in a
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  Vicky Reynal: better financial situation. What we're not seeing is all the
• 5:25
  Vicky Reynal: debt that might be sitting behind some of the spending.
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  Vicky Reynal: We're left with a sense of shame that everybody else
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  Vicky Reynal: is doing better than us and we need to catch
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  Vicky Reynal: up, and not a lot of critical thinking goes into
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  Vicky Reynal: that.
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  Iona Bain: There's also this concept of retail therapy. When does that
• 5:43
  Iona Bain: become problematic? Why do you think people turn to shopping
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  Iona Bain: so much as a way to self- soothe?
• 5:51
  Vicky Reynal: Because it can be quite effective in the short term.
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  Vicky Reynal: When you find something that you like and you buy
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  Vicky Reynal: it, you get dopamine released in the brain, which means
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  Vicky Reynal: that you do get a real sensation of feeling better.
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  Iona Bain: You get a high.
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  Vicky Reynal: It also distracts you, let's face it. Then the effect
• 6:08
  Vicky Reynal: fades away, and you're left sometimes with the guilt and
• 6:12
  Vicky Reynal: regret. But also, the feelings you were trying to avoid
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  Vicky Reynal: are still there, be it the sadness, be it the
• 6:19
  Vicky Reynal: loneliness, the stress, whatever it was. Isn't it better to
• 6:24
  Vicky Reynal: just deal with the roots of the problem, rather than
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  Vicky Reynal: trying to fix it with a quick boost that then will
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  Vicky Reynal: leave you feeling worse?
• 6:31
  Iona Bain: Does it take quite a long time for people to
• 6:33
  Iona Bain: accept that they might have a problem with overspending?
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  Vicky Reynal: There is a lot of denial around it. We can
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  Vicky Reynal: justify it in our minds and think that it's normal.
• 6:43
  Vicky Reynal: I would invite people to think about what's this about?
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  Vicky Reynal: Why did I have to go out there and spend?
• 6:48
  Vicky Reynal: Really acknowledge the cost, which is not just financial. It's
• 6:51
  Vicky Reynal: also all the anxiety it leaves people with.
• 6:55
  Iona Bain: Absolutely. In your book, you make a distinction between overspending
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  Iona Bain: and financial self- sabotage, which is really interesting. Can you
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  Iona Bain: tell me a bit more about why there's a difference
• 7:07
  Iona Bain: between the two?
• 7:08
  Vicky Reynal: Overspending can have so many different sources. One of the
• 7:13
  Vicky Reynal: reasons why we might be doing it is because we're
• 7:16
  Vicky Reynal: unconsciously trying to get into financial trouble. I've seen people,
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  Vicky Reynal: for example, who were so scared of moving out of
• 7:23
  Vicky Reynal: their parents house, of becoming financially dependent, they kept spending
• 7:28
  Vicky Reynal: all their money, running out, so that they would have an
• 7:31
  Vicky Reynal: excuse to stay home. Another example that I've seen was
• 7:35
  Vicky Reynal: one young man who kept running out of money in
• 7:37
  Vicky Reynal: the first two weeks of the month. We were trying
• 7:40
  Vicky Reynal: to spot patterns. The question that unlocked the case, so
• 7:44
  Vicky Reynal: to speak, was when I asked, " Well, what do you
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  Vicky Reynal: do when you run out of money?" He said, " I
• 7:49
  Vicky Reynal: call my dad." I said, " Okay, how's that relationship?" " Well,
• 7:53
  Vicky Reynal: I never speak to him anymore now that my parents
• 7:55
  Vicky Reynal: divorce."
• 7:57
  Iona Bain: Right.
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  Vicky Reynal: You realize, well, that was his motive. This overspending was
• 8:01
  Vicky Reynal: all about ruining the financial situation so that he could
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  Vicky Reynal: still have a relationship with his dad that he didn't
• 8:07
  Vicky Reynal: know how to have otherwise.
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  Iona Bain: But once you'd unpacked that, it must have absolutely blown
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  Iona Bain: his mind to realize that that's why he was doing
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  Iona Bain: what he was doing.
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  Vicky Reynal: It opened up a difficult question, which is how can
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  Vicky Reynal: I have a relationship with my dad outside of this?
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  Vicky Reynal: We needed to think about ways to build that relationship.
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  Iona Bain: Really, it was more about finding better coping strategies for
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  Iona Bain: that relationship that would then have a positive knock- on
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  Iona Bain: effect for how he was managing his money.
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  Vicky Reynal: Exactly. Overspending is one way to do it, but a
• 8:37
  Vicky Reynal: lot of people sabotage their finances by not attending to
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  Vicky Reynal: them, not talking about money. Suddenly, they're in this big
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  Vicky Reynal: mess because they weren't opening the bills.
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  Iona Bain: Yeah.
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  Vicky Reynal: Begin to unpack, " What am I gaining from this situation?
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  Vicky Reynal: Why am I doing this?" It could be because, at
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  Vicky Reynal: some level, you feel you deserve punishment and that's a
• 8:57
  Vicky Reynal: very painful thing to uncover. Certain people might go through
• 9:01
  Vicky Reynal: life with the sense that they don't deserve anything good. It
• 9:04
  Vicky Reynal: could be because you desire rescue and that makes you
• 9:07
  Vicky Reynal: feel looked after by other people.
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  Iona Bain: Do you think sometimes people also fear failing as well?
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  Iona Bain: That might explain why sometimes people don't want to tackle
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  Iona Bain: their finances, because that way, they can't fail at it.
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  Vicky Reynal: That's where sometimes the a- ha moment happens, when they
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  Vicky Reynal: see that actually, the very thing I was terrified of
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  Vicky Reynal: is happening through inaction. Is there a way for you
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  Vicky Reynal: to get more hold of your sense of agency and say, "
• 9:35
  Vicky Reynal: Fine. I might not do it perfectly, but doing something
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  Vicky Reynal: is better than doing nothing." People carry a lot of
• 9:42
  Vicky Reynal: shame when it comes to money, and a lot of
• 9:44
  Vicky Reynal: fear as well. A lot of times, what helps with
• 9:48
  Vicky Reynal: that financial anxiety is knowledge. It's beginning to identify what
• 9:54
  Vicky Reynal: is the fear about? A lot of that could be
• 9:56
  Vicky Reynal: about not understanding the terminology, or not knowing what the
• 10:00
  Vicky Reynal: options are.
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  Iona Bain: And because it can also feel quite overwhelming. But I
• 10:04
  Iona Bain: guess, you got to start somewhere. Once you actually start
• 10:08
  Iona Bain: looking into these things, they're probably not as scary as
• 10:10
  Iona Bain: you think.
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  Vicky Reynal: That's right. In fact, when you look at research, more
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  Vicky Reynal: than 50% of the population suffers from financial anxiety. The
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  Vicky Reynal: one thing that really decreases the level of anxiety is
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  Vicky Reynal: financial literacy. The more we know, the less anxious we
• 10:26
  Vicky Reynal: feel about it.
• 10:27
  Iona Bain: Hear, hear. Knowledge is power. With that in mind, let's
• 10:31
  Iona Bain: get to know another concept, the scarcity mindset. How does
• 10:35
  Iona Bain: that lead to unhealthy financial behaviors?
• 10:39
  Vicky Reynal: Scarcity mindset is the financial equivalent of seeing the glass
• 10:43
  Vicky Reynal: half empty.
• 10:44
  Iona Bain: Right.
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  Vicky Reynal: You're focusing on what you don't have, rather than appreciating
• 10:49
  Vicky Reynal: what you have and looking at the potential. A scarcity
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  Vicky Reynal: mindset can be quite unhelpful because it leaves people feeling
• 10:57
  Vicky Reynal: very afraid and insecure financially. Some people, when they feel
• 11:02
  Vicky Reynal: that way, they might feel paralyzed, rather than starting with
• 11:06
  Vicky Reynal: small steps that can help them feel more financial resilience.
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  Vicky Reynal: For example, putting away, even if it's five pounds a
• 11:14
  Vicky Reynal: week, can start building a safety net that's there for
• 11:18
  Vicky Reynal: emergencies. Isn't that better than not doing anything? I've also
• 11:24
  Vicky Reynal: seen people becoming very frugal or overworking, accumulating, hoarding money,
• 11:31
  Vicky Reynal: unable to enjoy it. Unable to ever feel like they
• 11:34
  Vicky Reynal: can stop and take a break, and say no to
• 11:36
  Vicky Reynal: a project. It's just that anxiety that it generates when
• 11:40
  Vicky Reynal: you feel like there just isn't enough, and you're constantly
• 11:44
  Vicky Reynal: battling with the worries about the future.
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  Iona Bain: I'm wondering if Ebeneezer Scrooge had the scarcity mindset. If
• 11:52
  Iona Bain: he was a real person, he would do.
• 11:55
  Vicky Reynal: Absolutely. What you want is the opposite, the abundance mindset.
• 12:00
  Vicky Reynal: Which is one in which you can feel satisfied as
• 12:04
  Vicky Reynal: much as one can when it comes to money, but
• 12:06
  Vicky Reynal: at least you can appreciate that you have enough to
• 12:08
  Vicky Reynal: be doing certain things. Part of the definition of financial
• 12:12
  Vicky Reynal: wellbeing is about feeling happy and in control of your
• 12:16
  Vicky Reynal: financial choices. There's things that you can do to improve
• 12:20
  Vicky Reynal: your situation. But we can also get creative and think, "
• 12:24
  Vicky Reynal: Well, maybe there is a little side gig I can start." I don't know, "
• 12:28
  Vicky Reynal: I can sell a few things on Vinted or eBay."
• 12:31
  Vicky Reynal: Or maybe I can start tutoring to get some extra
• 12:34
  Vicky Reynal: cash. When we become paralyzed by fear, it stops any
• 12:38
  Vicky Reynal: creative thinking and that's what we need to get hold
• 12:41
  Vicky Reynal: of. What can I do?
• 12:42
  Iona Bain: Can people start to want more money because they feel
• 12:46
  Iona Bain: that what they have is never enough? Is that also
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  Iona Bain: an example of a scarcity mindset?
• 12:51
  Vicky Reynal: Well, yes. It's a result of it. The problem is
• 12:54
  Vicky Reynal: that the goalpost keeps moving. If you don't get to
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  Vicky Reynal: a place in which you can appreciate what you have
• 13:03
  Vicky Reynal: and work with those fears, reality check them. Am I
• 13:08
  Vicky Reynal: catastrophizing when I feel I don't have enough? Then you
• 13:11
  Vicky Reynal: won't be able to move past that, and there isn't
• 13:14
  Vicky Reynal: enough money in the world that will help you feel
• 13:17
  Vicky Reynal: safe enough if that sense of unsafety is coming from
• 13:21
  Vicky Reynal: somewhere else that isn't just financial.
• 13:23
  Iona Bain: Yes, because we do hear about incredibly wealthy people seemingly
• 13:28
  Iona Bain: never satisfied with how much money they have. But is
• 13:31
  Iona Bain: there some truth in the idea that, once you get
• 13:34
  Iona Bain: to that point, you're no longer satisfied with what you've
• 13:37
  Iona Bain: got? You're just thinking about what you can get next.
• 13:40
  Vicky Reynal: I think it comes down to what is wealth for
• 13:42
  Vicky Reynal: you, can you define that? Sometimes we get stuck thinking
• 13:47
  Vicky Reynal: that things will make us happy. But actually, when you
• 13:50
  Vicky Reynal: sit and think about the things that you value, it
• 13:53
  Vicky Reynal: might be time with family and friends.
• 13:55
  Iona Bain: Yeah.
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  Vicky Reynal: Sometimes when you are stuck in this greedy pursuit of
• 13:59
  Vicky Reynal: wealth, it really begs the question, well, have you attached
• 14:03
  Vicky Reynal: more to money than it can actually deliver to you?
• 14:07
  Vicky Reynal: Is it that you're imagining it will make you more
• 14:10
  Vicky Reynal: lovable, it will attract more friends? There's all these symbolic
• 14:15
  Vicky Reynal: meanings that we give to money, and then some people
• 14:18
  Vicky Reynal: have the fortune or misfortune of finding out when they
• 14:21
  Vicky Reynal: have enough wealth that actually money didn't deliver on its
• 14:23
  Vicky Reynal: promise.
• 14:25
  Iona Bain: Yeah, you never want to get to that point where
• 14:26
  Iona Bain: you work so hard, and then you realize actually, it
• 14:30
  Iona Bain: wasn't the money that I needed after all, it was something
• 14:32
  Iona Bain: else. Yeah. For those listening who think that they might
• 14:36
  Iona Bain: have a scarcity mindset, what would you recommend for them,
• 14:40
  Iona Bain: in terms of turning that around and creating more of
• 14:43
  Iona Bain: an abundance mindset?
• 14:44
  Vicky Reynal: One thing is to catch yourself thinking about what you
• 14:49
  Vicky Reynal: don't have and try to very actively just shift what
• 14:54
  Vicky Reynal: you're focusing on to what you have. You might write
• 14:57
  Vicky Reynal: a gratitude journal about all the things that the money
• 15:00
  Vicky Reynal: that you have spent so far has helped you enjoy,
• 15:04
  Vicky Reynal: be it holidays or education. Some people find journaling really
• 15:09
  Vicky Reynal: helpful and it can be jotting the patterns. Or even,
• 15:13
  Vicky Reynal: just brainstorming with open questions. When I think about money,
• 15:18
  Vicky Reynal: I feel X. Or even going back to the first
• 15:21
  Vicky Reynal: money memories, that can be quite insightful. If all you
• 15:25
  Vicky Reynal: remember was parents taking a deep sigh at the till,
• 15:29
  Vicky Reynal: then you might begin to understand why you avoid the
• 15:33
  Vicky Reynal: topic of money. Or if you watched them argue about
• 15:35
  Vicky Reynal: it a lot when you were little, then you might
• 15:38
  Vicky Reynal: be avoiding the topic in your relationship. But there's a
• 15:41
  Vicky Reynal: lot of other things that can keep fueling this scarcity
• 15:45
  Vicky Reynal: mindset, like too much social media exposure. Are you always
• 15:49
  Vicky Reynal: looking at what other people have and comparing yourself unfairly
• 15:53
  Vicky Reynal: to that? Well, maybe try to do less of that.
• 15:56
  Vicky Reynal: Sometimes it's also about watching out what we read, because
• 16:00
  Vicky Reynal: there's a lot of news that maybe end up making
• 16:04
  Vicky Reynal: you feel more anxious. Choose reading that is more nurturing,
• 16:08
  Vicky Reynal: in which you're actually learning how you can improve your
• 16:11
  Vicky Reynal: situation, rather than dwelling into how much worse things could
• 16:15
  Vicky Reynal: get. Paying attention to all these things can really shift
• 16:20
  Vicky Reynal: your perspective onto what is within your control, what you
• 16:25
  Vicky Reynal: can do differently.
• 16:27
  Iona Bain: Absolutely. One of my mottos is focus on what's doable.
• 16:30
  Iona Bain: We can't achieve a perfect scenario with our finances, but
• 16:33
  Iona Bain: there are things that we can do. It's about getting
• 16:36
  Iona Bain: on with those things.
• 16:37
  Vicky Reynal: Yeah.
• 16:38
  Iona Bain: Can you suggest three simple money habits that will make
• 16:42
  Iona Bain: us feel more secure and satisfied when it comes to
• 16:45
  Iona Bain: money?
• 16:45
  Vicky Reynal: Well, money is still a big taboo. I would say
• 16:48
  Vicky Reynal: the first one is talk about it with people you
• 16:50
  Vicky Reynal: trust. If you're worried about money, why not open up to
• 16:53
  Vicky Reynal: somebody? You might find that they either have the same
• 16:56
  Vicky Reynal: worries, or might have some information that is useful. Talking
• 17:00
  Vicky Reynal: about it can help you make sense of things. My
• 17:03
  Vicky Reynal: second tip would be create a dedicated time in which
• 17:08
  Vicky Reynal: you attend to finances. That's helpful for people on all
• 17:13
  Vicky Reynal: ends of the spectrum. Find a time, maybe in the
• 17:16
  Vicky Reynal: week or in the month, in which you will review
• 17:19
  Vicky Reynal: your finances, maybe set some goals or look at your
• 17:23
  Vicky Reynal: accounts, whatever it is, and don't miss it. If you're
• 17:27
  Vicky Reynal: a couple, maybe it can be a money date in
• 17:29
  Vicky Reynal: which you jointly do that and talk about your finances.
• 17:34
  Vicky Reynal: Finally, I would say be curious about why you do
• 17:37
  Vicky Reynal: what you do with money. Pick up on the patterns. "
• 17:41
  Vicky Reynal: Oh, I always overspend when I'm out with friends." Or, "
• 17:44
  Vicky Reynal: It's always on a Sunday when I'm feeling lonely." I
• 17:47
  Vicky Reynal: think start by asking yourself why more often. That would
• 17:51
  Vicky Reynal: be my third tip.
• 17:52
  Iona Bain: Vicky, this has been a fascinating conversation.
• 17:55
  Vicky Reynal: Oh, thank you very much.
• 17:58
  Iona Bain: Thank you so much, Vicky. Lots of a- ha moments
• 18:01
  Iona Bain: there, for sure. Next time on the show, I'll be
• 18:03
  Iona Bain: joined by Helen Tupper from Amazing If to talk about
• 18:07
  Iona Bain: why our career paths need to be less linear and
• 18:10
  Iona Bain: more squiggly. I'd love it if you could follow the
• 18:12
  Iona Bain: podcast, leave us a review, and help others get a
• 18:15
  Iona Bain: little bit richer, too. You can keep up with the
• 18:17
  Iona Bain: show on YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram @ legalandgeneral. Thanks for listening.
• 18:22
  Iona Bain: Until next time, see you soon.