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Worst Coaches in Pittsburgh Sports History · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to a very sucky episode of Pittsburgh Sports Memories.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, uh co-host Steve Werton.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: As usual, I'm joined by I'm Tim Hammond.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Tim doesn't suck, so yeah.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Not at all.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Me, the the jury's still out on me.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, um today we're gonna go over coaches that were not very good in they are all Pittsburgh sports history.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's been quite a few, surprisingly enough.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, hey, you know, when what happens, you know, it it happens to the best of us.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, they came, they saw, they sucked.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Some were here for longer than they probably should be, some of them were here for a very short time, which is probably all they were necessary.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, they were given a chance and they failed.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And uh just like uh Homer Simpson said, the uh moral of the story is to never try.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: So without further ado, we'll start.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm gonna start with the honorable mentions of, you know, I I don't know.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Not sure, Tim, like you know, honorable mentions in this this category.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh these are the kind of people that like I think I would call them mitigated mitigating circumstances.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Does that sound sound fair, Tim?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, especially for the first guy on your list.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I'm gonna go with a penguin's coach named Lou Agnoty.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um he was coached from 1983 to 1984.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't even write down oh, okay.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I did write down his record.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: He was 16 and 58.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you might say, well, that sounds horrible.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: What's the mitigating factor, Steve?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you see, there is this really great hockey talent up in you know Montreal, and the Penguins are really determined to get him.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: So um, I think we did a whole podcast episode on where they tanked for Mario.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that's definitely uh what was going on was like they if like I think one point the goaltender was playing too well, they're like, hey, you gotta go to the miners for a while and just hang out.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: And they had no minor league system, it was completely destroyed.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: So uh basically what they did was they set their franchise back probably a solid five years by doing this tactic, and um, it worked.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: And uh after they drafted Mario, they fired Lou Agnoty.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't even get the coach, the guy he was tanking for.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Was that unfair, Tim?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean that that totally wasn't his fault.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: The the he and Eddie Johnston decided they were going to to hatch that scheme, and they and Lou Angnotti sacrificed his job so that the penguins could s literally survive and not only survive, but you know, go on to be one of the flagship franchises of the league.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I was he a bad coach?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Did he have a bad record?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but man, I I'd hate to remember that guy as like just a bad coach.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: He he was a key component in the history of Pittsburgh sports.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean it's kind of like unfair to blame him totally for this since they were trying to lose, but it's kind of unfair also that they at least didn't give him like a chance.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Why didn't they just give him a chance to, you know, hey, see what he can do.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna rebuild the franchise, let's get rebuilding.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: But um that job fell to another person, although Eddie Johnson got to stick around.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Why did you know?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Although they said what teams are offering him like their whole draft and stuff, weren't they?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: To get married.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they were.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: So next up, honorable mention is Craig Patrick.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you might say, well, Steve, Craig Patrick's a general manager, and I would say, you are correct.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: But there were two times in his career where he had to be the head coach.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um they had in both times he was mid-season replacement, and one I would say was more successful than the other.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: In 1989-90, they had fired their coach, who will also be on this list.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um and he was a mid-season replacement.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um the in the Penguins just missed the playoffs, but they really slumped towards the end of the season, and that I think that's the year like they had to win that game in Buffalo.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: It was, and and Mario got hurt that year, too.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's the other reason that they slumped, is because Mario had had started having the back issues and missed a bunch of games at the end.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, Craig Patrick, great GM.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and then in 97 he filled in after they fired, I guess, Eddie Johnston.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: They actually had Eddie Johnston coaching.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: And um, they fired him and uh kept Craig Patrick just came down.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: He actually got them into the playoffs where they lost in the first round.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, but that was another year where they kind of slumped off uh 97.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: They kind of slacked off at the end of the year, and that was before I want to say before Kevin Constantine.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: So right.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the year that really what got the only thing that got them into the playoffs was.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yawger.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yauger.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and and they and they had called up this goalie, Patrick Laleem, yeah, who had this like stretch where he won like, I forget what it was, he like 10-11 games or in a row or something, and that's the only reason they squeezed into the playoffs, but they weren't very good.
• 5:32
  unknown: Yeah.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, it's probably two guys is kind of unfair.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Craig Patrick really isn't a coach, although he's kind of per like not favorably portrayed in the Miracle movie, the Miracle on Ice movie.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so he's kind of like portrayed as like a goofball, like you know, but he's kind of like the foil for um Her Brooks.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, I don't know.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Craig Patrick was very good, so yeah.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, the any I think any coach in any sport that comes in on an interim basis, it's hard to judge their record.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like you don't get to start the season, you don't get your you know, to frame the roster, you're just sort of trying to finish out the disaster of somebody else's.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: If somebody else got fired, then you're just trying to finish out the disaster that was their their tenure.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you can't, it's hard to hit like a hard reset in the middle of a season.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: So next up is I'm gonna go with should have never been a coach at this level.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, some people, you know, it's just it goes this way in life.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Some people are just better at a smaller stage or a smaller area, like maybe they work better a small business or not on the main stage, you know, they're a better person like that.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, this kind of kind of falls into this.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, a guy named Mike Johnston, and we can never remember this guy's name, Tim, because he's that he was coached from 2014 to 2015.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: I did not write down his yeah, one season.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: He was only coached for one season.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let me uh I well a little over a little over one season.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And they did they fired him the next season.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: They did make him the uh they did make the playoffs.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: That was the year they uh lost to the Rangers.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and he was uh 58 and 37, so he had a winning record.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, um they got into the playoffs as an eighth seed loss to the Rangers, and then he made it into the next season, and they had hired a guy named Jim Rutherford.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the one thing about Jim Rutherford is he doesn't like to like a lot of changes to his organization.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: He likes to stay the course on Tim.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Or he could be the exact opposite, which he is the exact opposite.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: He likes to make lots of changes and trade people just for trading people.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so they had a slow start to the season.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Rutherford um fires him and he hire actually hires um Mike Sullivan.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: So there you go.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they said it wasn't a good fit for the talent they had.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: He wasn't getting the talent that what they felt they should be getting out of the talent, and actually it was a perfect move because then Mike Sullivan goes on to get exactly what they want out of the talent they have, and they end up going to win back-to-back cups a year or two later.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: So and I think that's what makes that guy like even a worse coach.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, even a worse coach because it wasn't like, okay, maybe the team just maybe the roster wasn't that good.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: The roster was good enough to win the next two Stanley Cups, and he was just not he couldn't get out of them when he needed to get out of them.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think his system, he was the wrong system.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, sometimes, especially in hockey and basketball, like a guy, even in football, like a guy doesn't really fit in with the coaching style or what did you say, philosophy that you know, would Patrick Mahomes be successful if Marty Schottenheimer was still the coach of Kansas City from the 80s?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I mean that it you said that guy's forgettable.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Even his name, his name's Mike Johnston.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's just yeah, could be it might as well have been, you know, John Smith.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: He's very successful.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: He coached in some team called the Portland Winterhawks, and I think he coached for a team in maybe Chicago, and uh has lots of success at the AHL level, I want to say, but at the NHL level, he's just not your guy.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: Nope.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, next up is I mentioned him early, your Gene Ubiako.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, he isn't quite the guy I was talking about.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: In June, they hire him to coach the Penguins after a 10-week search.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: They searched high and low and considered Mike Keenan and all these uh Scotty Bowman, and they come up with this guy who was their minor league coach of the Baltimore Skipjacks, which is just a great name for a hockey team.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um so what happens is he he he when he was coaching the Skipjacks, he had this great record of 1358-9.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: He was actually coming off the long longest losing streak in like HO history.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so why they hired this guy, I'm not sure.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: But Esposito, the GM at the time, thought he was the right guy for the job.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: So um he actually does make the playoffs, but they lose to the Flyers in a game we cover in the season and series we covered a couple episodes ago.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And um later that season the next season, halfway through December, um Tony Esposito and Yubiraco are both fired as the GM.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um not a great hire.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um Yubiraco was 10, 14-2 at at that following season, but I guess they did make the playoffs the year before, which that was the first time they made the playoffs under Mario, and the first time they made the playoffs in I want to say seven years, six or seven years.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: So he did at least get enough out of the team where they could make the playoffs.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: So um not not sure why they hired him over like Scotty Bowman or even Mike Keenan.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm not sure.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Just yeah, the Penguins weren't weren't great at making decisions back in those days.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: And and like you said, he wasn't it wasn't like he just totally fell flat on his face.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that kind of like Mike Johnston, it's it's that team should have been a lot better than it was, a lot better.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and again, as you know, was proven, they won two Stanley, that same team won two Stanley Cups.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, not the same team.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they had to make they had to make some trades.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, Ron Francis wasn't there and you know, all that stuff, but still I think the bigger was thing was bringing in once again Craig Patrick as general manager that kind of totally changed everything for that team in the franchise.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: So um, I'm gonna call this, and it's kind of a category of one, so it's a very unique individual here, should stick to announcing and betting on horses.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Can you guess who I'm talking about, Tim?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that would that would be the uh immortal Eddy old check.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and he actually coached for a season and a half.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what were they thinking?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: 2003 to 2005.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: He was really a great player, had an 18-game point streak from 1980 in 1989, 1990.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then he was a TV announcer, and uh he was great on TV.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody loved him and Mike Lang, and everybody said, Mario was like, since we like you so much, we're like, you know, starting out this new season.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's hire you.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: We got Sidney Crosby in the draft, we got Ziggy Palfy, we got Mark Recce, we got John Lecare, Leclerc, we even got the immortal Dick Tarnstrom.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we we got we got plant galore, it's a bunch of old talent, but hey, we're gonna go for it right out of the lockout.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And they fell right on their face.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't did they even make the playoffs?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think they even made the playoffs.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't make the playoffs, and he didn't he what he didn't even stick around to find out even if they would have.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't let him stick around that long.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: That was a shame.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, nicest guy in the world, really great announcer, like you said.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, he was a guy, we used to see him um uh at like the Mount Lebanon Ice Rink.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: He he used to be there sometimes.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: He was involved in like some of the Youth hockey stuff.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Just like a good guy, good Pittsburgh guy, but just wasn't the right coach for that team or for probably future penguin teams or future hockey teams.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they well, they go from that to hiring, you know, and they really set their franchise back like two years by doing this little like let's get Mario a cup thing.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And Mario retires, they have to lose all the veterans, Leclerc's garbage, like so.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: They hire Michelle Terrien, who actually like really does do a great job at turning her turning it around.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um Bob Smyzic blames Kig Craig Patrick for this hire.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, whatever.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Even though he did draft Crosby and Malkin and Flurry.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um Craig Patrick actually cost Craig Patrick his job.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: He was let go at the end of the season, they hire uh Ray Shiro, the late Ray Shiro.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of a sad thing.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just just a bad that that was a bad hire.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like this almost sounds like something like a college football team would do.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: It just doesn't make any sense.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if you're if you were gonna go for and they didn't know when they hired Eddie, when they hired Eddie Olcak, it was a rebuild.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: But then when they got Crosby, when they won the lottery with Crosby, then they had you know Malkin waiting in the wings, they had Flurry at that point, then it was like, okay, Mario maybe has a year or two left.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let's again coming out of the lockout, let's try to just make a make a run here.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and if you were going to try to do that, you probably should have just changed head coaches at that point and gone to like a like a veteran, you know, a veteran guy.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like like a you mentioned Mike Keenan earlier.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't remember where he was at that point, but like one of those types of guys.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's actually who they ended up.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Terry and kind of is like a Mike Keen Keenan, like a very strict disciplinarian.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but that wouldn't have been good for Ziggy Palfey and John Leclerc in that group.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, for that group you needed like the the the guy that whoever like would have been coaching the Olympic team, like that's the coach you needed for that crowd.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean it's it's a shame it didn't work out, but it actually, you know, wait, worked out for the better.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And Eddie Olcek now is great on the Kentucky Derby, and he uh covers he covers hockey on TNT still, I think.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um he was actually fired December 15th of 2005, so like you said, he didn't even make it to the seat that they didn't make the playoffs that year anyway.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, that's a shame.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the only thing I can remember, like, remember didn't the Colts, the Indianapolis Colts, hire Jeff Saturday a few years back and everybody got mad about it.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, I forgot about that.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Very similar thing where it's like, wait, this does this guy really have the credentials to be a head coach, and just because he used to play for us and because people like him, does that make him a legit head coach?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's very similar.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a good comparison.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: So next up in uh this is once again another guy that's a category of one.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh this is the category of better stick to selling used cars.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: I would have called the category people that don't have a soul.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, used car salesman, Tim.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that would be one Talod Graham.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think both me and Tim are gonna have a lot of venom and negative things for this guy to I don't know where to begin with him.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just gonna call him what he is.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: He he was a carpet bagger, he just wanted to use pit.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: He had been at Tulsa and like uh rice, like smaller Texas schools, and I I think he thought he could like stay here for a year or two and jump to a bigger job, like a USC or a Florida or you know, like a bigger school.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: And um, unfortunately for him, he is not that good.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he had one six and six year at Pitt, and then at the end of the season, after a very mediocre season where the offense really wasn't that great, Tino Sinceri, who looked like he could be a good quarterback, regressed.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: He talks to Arizona State because that's kind of like where he's from.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that that was the excuse.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, his wife was supposedly had relatives in Arizona, and he didn't get permission.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I guess you're supposed to say, hey, I'm gonna talk to you know, this other people can I have can I do that?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then like when the and Steve Peterson, the other people would try and call him, he just ignored their calls.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so they were like, okay, we're just gonna let you go, and it didn't matter because he was gone anyway.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, what was even worse was he told the players via text, like he didn't even have the balls to go in and say, Hey, I'm going to another job, you know, good luck with the rest of your careers.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: I wish you the best.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: No, nothing like that.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't even send the text himself.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: He asked one of his assistants.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and he sent the text for him, like, dear players, I am leaving.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: We'll miss you.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then, like, the year before, like, he had an assistant going to West Virginia and he called them mercenaries, and it was kind of like, oh, the pot calling the kettle black.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he I actually read in the paper that staff at the practice facility called him an arrogant man.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like, you know, it was like, I forget what the headline was, like, the end of the arrogance or something.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: And like, I guess he didn't like sharing the facility with the Steelers.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: And he like literally hated it so much that he would force the staff to bring the food over to the pit side of the because you know, it's like the Steelers have their own little side, pit has their side, but there's a cafeteria in the middle, and then normally they take turns using it, but sometimes not.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: They can have, you know, and it's you would think that'd be a really cool recruiting tool, I would think.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, you get to have like lunch right next to Ben Rothelsberger or, you know, or Mike Tomlin, or but they just like uh it was so yeah, the title of the paper was Goodbye to Arrogance.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: So he made them like he hated the fact he had to share a facility with the Steelers.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: He just hated everything about Pittsburgh.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: He really his offense was mediocre.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: The title of the paper was Goodbye to Arrogance.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Pitt wide receiver Devin Street called him a liar, and then he goes to Arizona State and has a very mediocre career.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: His biggest win at Arizona State was beating Duke in the Sun Bowl, really.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: He did nothing.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: He had a couple nine or ten win seasons, but that's like he really doesn't do anything.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think he beat UCLA one time or during the regular I he does nothing.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: The guy was and then like I think what really bothered me too was like he tried to like come up here and like use like religious stuff, like to recruit people, like, oh, you know, I'm you know a real big believer in this or that.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just like you're just such a fake he was such a fake, I couldn't stomach him.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like you said, Tim, he he just had no morals or no, he just was the worst of college coaching on all fronts.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a good way to describe it.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he came here, he also came here selling that he had this, it was called the high octane offense.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it was mediocre, like it was the same, yeah.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there was nothing, there was nothing like he wasn't an offensive wizard.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: You you really thought when he came here, like, oh man, I can't wait to see this offense.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: This is gonna be really fascinating.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: They they lost a game that year.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I can't remember which game it was, but they had like a huge lead, and they allowed the other team to come back because they kept running like no huddle.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because that was that that's really all it was.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: It was just a hurry-up offense.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: There was nothing really that clever about it.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: So he was a mediocre coach.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then and the other thing was in in in those days, like college football is so different now with the with the NIL and the transfer stuff, but in those days, you recruited kids.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the kids couldn't transfer, remember?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: They had to stay there.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: If they transferred, they had to sit out a year.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, and and when you recruited kids, it was like, hey, you're you know, most of the time it was to come to the school to play for you know, the entirety of their college career.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: So he's selling them.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: He sold all these recruits on a bill of goods that, you know, hey, we're going to build this thing together.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to have this high octane offense.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then he doesn't even stay through even one season.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then like you said, he doesn't even have the the the courage to stand up in front of his team and say, look, here's what happened.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: I took this other job.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: He has the assistance send them a text.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's so pathetic.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like what kind of leader?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: You're sort of leader of men, of these young men, and you can't even sit there and tell them that you're leaving.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: I can't believe that Pitt got duped by him, Arizona State got duped by him, Tulsa got duped by him.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like all these schools got just duped by something.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: He must have been a really good talker in these meetings.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's what that's yeah the used car sale.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like he did this to Rice too.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: He was there for one year and he went to Tulsa and Rice literally wrote like a hate song like the band the their band like wrote a hate song about it.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: I remember that.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because he did the same thing to Rice to get to Tulsa.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: So he's he's nowhere now I think he's like an offensive like assistant like he's just a one of the what do they call like offensive quality control or something stupid.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: So he's totally out of football.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it and you know what football's for the better for it quite honestly if he was in the pros it wouldn't be that bad but you couldn't do this crap in the pros.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like yeah I don't know.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well and and at least in the pros again that that's it's people are getting paid and well although kids are getting paid now too in college.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well well I'm saying right that's what I'm saying.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like now in college that would be a little different of a with conversation but back then that that was just so so scummy.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well I'm glad he's gone and then it was a really bad Steve Peterson hire and um probably led to like Steve Peterson leaving.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: It was a bad yeah it was it was a disaster and like shame on Pitt for having he already had a track record at that point.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and and they still bought into it and they had fired one instead two that was to to hire him yeah to hire to yeah again we we could go on and on Steve because it like you said we have a lot of venom for this like the this this one of the worst hires one of the worst experiences a guy that well because it's like my expectations were pretty low when this guy came I thought I don't think he's that good but he's supposedly this good so and I know he's a carpet beggar.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: He's just here just to make money and move on okay fine the University of Cincinnati goes through this every year with Brian Kelly and Tommy Tubberville and at all at all at all you know the guy from Ohio State fine fine then get us 10 wins get us to a bowl and then be on your way and he couldn't even freaking do that.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: So what good are you?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: And again the the way again like just the the way that he did it too just the way that he did it can't can't even face these guys like did did you care about any of these people that you recruited and that you spent all this time with like a college coach these are college kids you have to you have to be involved in their lives did he care about them at all?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean apparently not well some people just you know there's one person they really care about and the person Todd Graham cares about most is Todd Graham.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah so um next up uh going from one extreme to the other uh better second banana than first and there's uh I think I got like a couple people in here um Foge Fasio and I love Foge Foge is great you know he's the opposite of Todd Graham a really good person really nice person he played at Pitt in the 50s under coach Carl D Pisqual he was a defensive coordinator for all those great pit defenses in the late 70s and early 80s and then he becomes head coach in 1982 and he has to follow Jackie Sherrill who was had a lot of success at Pitt he uh Jackie Sherrill was 59 and 1 and in games at Pitt.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: So he had a really impressive yeah and it wasn't like he the cupboard was bare he inherited Dan Marino and then he went 9-3 8-3-1 and then 3-7 and 1 and 5-5 and one I don't know why he liked ties so much but Foge definitely like I think Foge was too conservative I think was what happened and plus he he did he wasn't as good a recruiter as Jackie Cheryl um so the paper stated that Wesley Pottsvar and Ed Bosley I guess that that Bosley being the the athletic director and Pottsvar being the chancellor Pitt at that point had a decision between their lust for money and their loyalty to Foge and the former one so people really liked Foge.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: The paper liked him you know people liked him I think even like they said they had which was unheard of they said the athletic director had like an hour or two hour meeting about firing him so with Foge.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: So like I I don't know if that's just an 80s thing or just like yeah he's really there were no just I I Foge saw it coming especially after the mediocre seasons and um you know the paper called Foge a very loyal and good person.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: It cost Pitt the recruitment of Major Harris which that was not good.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and um you know where Foge ended up being a successful defensive coordinator um he he actually was on the Browns team that lost to the Steelers.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: He wanted to keep blitzing Butch Davis decided not to it cost the Browns a playoff game um he retired from the Browns in 2003.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think he worked for Minnesota under Mike Tice but not like just as like a consultant role and um he did pit home games on the radio after that I remember listening to Foge on the radio with it was uh Bill Hillgrove Foge and um I want to say the Bill Frelick maybe and um unfortunately in 2009 um he died of leukemia as uh some of us are want to do um very nice gentleman very good guy guy the opposite of Todd Grant the guy you would want like Dave once at the guy you do want coaching your team the guy you do want helping out so yeah I I there's lots of times in sports history in general where it's very hard to take over like what was a dynasty.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I know I know Pitt, you know they had the national championship they had a couple almost championships but for Pitt that was like the those kind of like 76 to 82 was kind of like their dynasty years.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then for him to come in and take over as an assistant you know kind of like George Seaford or like Dan Devine up in Green Bay when Bardi retired it it's just it's hard to do that and and some guys can do it and some guys can't and he just couldn't.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: He was a better defensive coordinator than head coach I think pretty because he went on to be a defensive coordinator in the NFL for a long time after a good one.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: So anywho um I kind of snuck this guy on the list um Bill Austin and uh he was uh from 1966 to 1968 speaking of Vince Lombardi yeah he had a record of 11 and 28 with the Steelers and um he was a Green Bay assistant coach under Lombardi on those Packer teams that were just legendary and one of the NFL's best dynasties.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then they don't get I guess they get talked about but I don't know in the mon cause it because there seems to be a dividing line people want to always say well we're only talking about the Super Bowl era but they did win two Super Bowls did they win four in a row or did they win three in a row?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was three in a row.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Three so they won the championships and two so they're the only team to really well not only team one of the few teams to win three Pete so Bill Austin um do you remember the story on how they hired him Tim it was yeah yeah you want me to tell that one or whatever I mean it's kind of like uh art and Dan are you know art's still kind of running the team at that point and Dan's coming of age he's graduating Duquesne he's ready to start running the team and he goes okay dad we're gonna you know really put out a big search and I'm gonna you know search the hole and we're really gonna have real interviews and um the chief goes oh yeah I talked to Vince he has this great guy Bill Austin he's great and if uh Vince says he's okay he's okay I already hired him and Dan was kind of like oh what I thought we were gonna do it different this time yeah yep yeah and and talk about like nice guys who just maybe should have done a different different job uh art Rooney beloved you know again we've told so many stories about Art Rooney but in terms of just football decisions yeah you know that's how he ran the team it's like oh yeah but you know well I I know Vince Vince is a friend and Vince says this guy's the best you know Vince wouldn't Vince went and lied to me and Vince Lombardi wasn't like Vince Lombardi you know I'm sure Vince wasn't lying it's just no I I he's a once again I think he was a good second banana not good banana and and maybe not a good fit for whatever roster makeup and whatever direction the stewards were going at the time that's why you that's why you interviewed he was so good that yeah he was so good that Chuck Knowle went what one in eleven his first or one in thirteen his first year.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right yeah yeah I mean so so yeah you have to you have to and again Dan Rooney understood that like this is Dan Rooney wanted to modernize he wanted to do a nationwide search he wanted to like interview candidates and set up you know uh um whatever a board like figuring out who to draft and his dad's just like running the team like it's still 1933 and and oh yeah this guy's a a friend of a friend so I'll just get him to do it.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah so Bill Austin was fired and um they hired some other guy named Chuck Knoll.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: How'd that work out?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and Bill Austin kind of the the the asterisk or answer to a trivia question I should say like who was the who was the last time that the Stewart had a coach that was fired yeah yeah that was fired yeah so next up and I'm maybe being a little unfair to this guy but I really he really rubbed me the wrong way and it wasn't so in 2014 Paul Christ has left to go be the coach of Wisconsin and he has an offensive coordinator named Joe Rudolph and they had a pretty good offense they had a great running game they they really now it wasn't high octane but it was a good offense unlike Todd Graham Paul Christ actually knows what he's doing um so you know he he ends up coaching the bowl game that year because Paul Christ is off doing Wisconsin things and literally do you remember this game Tim like Pitt was leading by like I think I want to say 14 or 17 in the fourth quarter.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it was 21.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: It might have been it might have been 21 yeah and they Houston recovers two onside kicks and do you know why the University Houston recovered not one but two onside kicks yeah it's because they had the wrong personnel out there.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: They put out a defensive lineman on the hands team why do you do that?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Not once but twice you'll fool me once shame on you.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then Joe Rudolph after the game takes no responsibility for it.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: He says oh I think our kids learned a lot today you know they learned how to you know take a loss in this yeah because you know did you learn anything Joe?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know I know you already got a job set up in Wisconsin but you know that guy I can't remember the name of the kid the poor kid that it was the same kid twice because uh Joe this is it's the most frustrating and I know this guy's a one game intern coach but it was ridiculous.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was this guy never should have been coach it and to not even just take hey I screwed up I'm sorry I apologize to the team it was our bad it just to not take any responsibility was the worst yeah it it wasn't good.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it like he was only coached for one game but but for for that decision and and and again like if you're gonna be a leader then step up and don't throw your kids under the bus because that's basically what he did.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah it was it was a joke so next up is uh the category of abject failure and boy do we got quite a crowd here we got a lot of people in this category Tim have you ever heard of Billy Meyer?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: I have he was in one of our Fun Facts episode for a reason that I think you're gonna talk about yeah he he's he's played on the worst team and managed the worst team in baseball history uh in 1952 the Pirates have 42 wins and 118 losses which is I think the worst in modern franchise history I think there was a team in 1890 that was pretty bad but they didn't play as many games um what happened Ralph Kiner had an off year um so they did finish in last place with him um ranch Ricky was maybe kind of losing it a little they shuffled a lot of people around um I don't know what else to say I mean it's one of the worst baseball teams ever the only team that finished worst in modern that wasn't an expansion team was the 2003 Detroit Tigers.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean 42 wins that that's pretty tough to pull off I mean out of 162 game season um his number is retired by the Pirates did you know that yeah that's why he was in that's so that's why he was in our fun facts episode and we talked about that at the time number one yeah he numbered he's a apparently he was a very likable person and a very nice guy once again nice guy kind of finishing glass um here's another fun fact do you know uh who Norman Rockwell is Tim yeah painter yeah he painted for this uh paper called the Saturday evening post it's kind of like Americana you've maybe seen his paintings in like your dentist office or you know somewhere people that are kind of like stuff like that.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a famous painting of three umpires getting together to see if the game is going to be rain delayed and it's called Tough Call.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: In the background of that painting there's a manager arguing with the other manager and that is Billy Meyer.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: So that's nice fun fact he's in a normal Rockwell he's really stunk on a baseball but um was in a Norman Rockwell painting so yeah and retiring his number because he's a nice guy seems like a really odd seems like a pirate thing to do.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah so um that's abject failure number one uh and I I don't know Tim maybe you'll agree with this one maybe you won't uh Ralph Willard he might maybe fits more into the shouldn't have been coaching at this level guy but um he's from a he coached pit basketball I don't even have his record he's one of the few coaches to have oh there is his record he's 63 and 81 over the five years they never made the tournament they even sniffed the tournament I don't think they even won a big East tournament game they might have won one and um you know he he never did anything the stage was just too big he was a better assistant head coach and uh there's only five basketball coaches at Pitt that have a losing record.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I he's one of the five that don't have a winning record at Pitt in basketball which is pretty tough to do and especially since he was there so long yeah that was that was like the late 90s that he was at Pitt and um and then his tenure ended really badly it was that that season where it looked like the guy broken the the guy broken the house or something like that.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: They had yes they had a like a guy get busted for like robbery when they were on a road trip and and that season started off really promising.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: It seemed like maybe he was finally building something and it all fell apart and and again kind of like the the hockey coaches we mentioned they ended up having really good teams right after that so it wasn't like it was impossible to do he just wasn't the guy for it.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then he goes on to coaches Alma Mott or Holy Cross and he gets them into the tournament so I I really think this is maybe a I know it's an abject failure.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: It is an abject failure but at the same time he he was better at the smaller schools you know so maybe you know never should have coached at this level too.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's fair.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Another guy who loves abject failure is John Russell and uh he was the Pirates manager from 2008 to 2010 um November 5th 2007 he was the Pirates manager um they actually extended his contract twice and these are the years when the Pirates aren't having winning seasons to he's having losing years and getting his contract extended not sure what's going on there um the one year the Pirates waited until June to announce a new contract and the fans were really pissed off in 2010 he had a record of 57 and 110 and uh that's the second worst in Pirates history outside of poor Billy Myers 1952 Pirates.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: So um do you remember then the Pirates lost 20 to nothing to the Brewers on April 26 I I remember that game distinctively because um the office I was working in at the time is it was across the street from PNC Park and it was a it was a like a daytime weekday game.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I wanted to check the score to I was trying to beat the traffic because the game was going to end right around the time I was leaving work so I wanted to leave before the game ended and I I went on the internet and it was like eighth inning brewers 20 pirates nothing and I'm like that's not right.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: I kept hitting the refresh button thinking that can't be right and it was right.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah that those were some glorious times man John Russell the thing I remember about him was he he like thought he was clever he would do stuff like he would bat the the pitcher in the eighth spot instead of the ninth spot and it it was in and like he wasn't the only one that did that totally Tony LaRussa did stuff like that too but Tony LaRussa was actually you know a good manager and and John Russell just wasn't um he finishes with an overall record of 186 and 299 um and and this is another case like you said the Pirates would go on to have success like not long after he left um the team had Neil Rocker Pedro Alvarez Garrett Jones and Andrew McCutcheon now you say okay that's not bad unfortunately they also had Ryan Domit who if you remember couldn't throw the he was a catcher who couldn't throw the ball back to the pitcher never mind second base Paul Mahome Zach Duke and the late Octavio Dotel in like one of his last seasons in the major leagues so um yeah they had a pretty bad team even though they just had a young young talent that hadn't wasn't major league ready yet so so um now we come to the um Billy Martin part of our podcast um he is he is the Pittsburgh Billy he is Pittsburgh's Billy Martin isn't he yes walt Walt Keysling the Pittsburgh's answer to uh Billy Martin yeah they did have a very like I think I've said this before about Walt Keysling and uh Art Rudy Sr.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: They had like a very George Steinbrenner Billy Martin kind of relationship so you're fired you're hired you're fired you're hired you're fired I love you I hate you I love you my God get a room you two um so Walt Keysling are you ready for this coached from 1939 to 1940 1941 to 1944 1954 to 1956 so the suck really was in the 54 to 56 I'm gonna say that I'm gonna give him a pass on 1941 to 1944 because of a little thing called World War II I mean he was probably just lucky to survive um 1939 to 1940 he they were seven and four and um in 1942 uh curly Lambeau called him the best line coach in the league um like I said his middle tenure was probably his best um I think he coached for the Packers at some point after nineteen forty four for a little while he was like a line coach obviously um do you know what he did in his final tenure that uh really puts him on the abject failure list here.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: He cut some skinny kid from you know Bloomfield that had gone to Louisville because he couldn't pass the test to get in the pit.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: And he wouldn't not only did he cut Johnny United, but he wouldn't even like let him play.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: He like never gave him a chance.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: We we had said on that other episode that we did that um Tim Rooney, Dan's or Dan's brother, Art's son, wrote like an 11-page letter to his dad because he was a ball boy.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: And he was like, Look, I I'm watching this guy in practice.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: He's really good.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and the coach, the coach just won't even let him, you know, run run any kind of practices or put being any kind of preseason games, nothing.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: He won't let him do anything.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think he's really good.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: So so Tim Rooney, the ball boy, you know, knew a lot more than Wal Keysling did, apparently.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's also the if you read Dan's book, um, I guess they ran it was um the chief, Dan, and Keysling in a car on West Liberty Avenue, and they were driving down there, and I guess they ran into Johnny Unitis after he got cut, and Keisling just like sank in his seat.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like he couldn't even deal with it.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: And like, you know, the chief being the chief and being the great person is like, oh, you know, sorry it didn't work out.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you can you'll catch on somewhere else.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because because it's because it's Art Rudy Sr.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what he does best.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's art at his best, you know, helping people out, encouraging people.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's funny, you know, he's so terrible at football, but he's such a great human being.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: So and that's probably more important than being good at football, but yeah, I it's just the chief is the chief, and you gotta love him.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Just don't let him make personnel decisions.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: But uh yeah, Johnny United just goes to Baltimore and has a Hall of Fame career, wins NFL championships, and all kinds of he I did.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: He ever get a Super Bowl ring?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: Was he on the I don't think he was on the Colts team that got a Super Bowl ring?
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: He was.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: He was on the Super Bowl final.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: He was on that call.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and why did Walt Keysling last so long?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: The Chief loved him.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean the Chief would never fire him.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: He was friends with him.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: It was kind of like the Bill Austin thing.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, he's a good guy.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm you know, I'm just gonna let him in.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I I I don't understand Walt Keysling's tenure with the Steelers.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: And even after they fired him in 56, Tim, you know Keisling was still uh had a job with the Steelers till the end of his life.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: They they never got rid of him.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: They just Well, I I think I think he when they so the guy after him was Buddy Parker, and if I remember correctly, I don't think they even really to your point, they didn't really fire him.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: He kind of stepped they they mutually agreed that he would step aside as head coach, but I think that was honestly more because of his health issues than it was his track record.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then they went from you know just incompetent to insane.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: I I will say this, you know, at least Buddy Parker, as crazy as it was, was competent.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: He knew what he was doing.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and he got a lot of wins.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of wins.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: He had a really for for the seasons of that era, he had a really good record.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now he continued the tradition of cutting Hall of Fame quarterbacks, he kind of mason Rudolph Len Dawson.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like he just let him languish at third string, and then Len Dawson goes on to have a Hall of Fame career.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, but but at least at least with that, that was after they had made the trade.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: But they had Bobby um Bobby Lane and they had Earl Morrill.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: So those it wasn't like ab like I don't I don't even remember who the quarterback ahead of Johnny United is.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: It was nobody special.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, moving back to hockey, and um a gentleman that I mean he he maybe I have him unfairly on this list, maybe not.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: I you could debate about this guy.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: A gentleman named Bob Barry.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: He had a tall task, he's the guy after Lou Agnotty.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: The Penguins organization, like I said, destroyed themselves.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: They literally burned a house down to get Mary Lemieux, and he had to build from the ashes.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: He had Mario, but they didn't have really anything else.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think they said they only had two prospects that were NHL ready.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: So they literally had to rebuild their farm system, rebuild the NHL team, and um Bob Barry had just been fired from the Canadiens.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think he had a winning record with the Canadians.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you know, hey, whatever.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: But it didn't work out.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: He had spent three years with the Penguins, and it just they never made the playoffs.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: Eddie Johnson eventually fired him in 1987 for another guy that'll be on this list.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I and you know, I I I don't know what to say, Tim.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: He just it didn't work out for him.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't not a lot worked out for the penguins back in the 80s.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think I think what you said is very fair.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like he wasn't he didn't do a good job, but he he had a lot of stuff stacked against him.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was gonna take two or three years to get that team back to respectability.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and I I think playing in the Patrick division didn't help because they they had that extra team to climb over.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: If they'd have been in any other division, maybe they make the playoffs earlier and you know people stick around a little longer.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: So next up on our abject failure, and this guy is up there, he's not quite Todd Graham, but he's pretty close.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Kevin Stallings.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: You remember Kevin Stallings, Tim?
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: I do, unfortunately.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: So pit basketball in 2016 is a successful program, been successful from the end of the Ralph Willard era all the way to Jamie Dixon.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: So we're 2015.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: They still were very competitive in the move from the big east to the ACC.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: They had uh beaten some ACC teams, and the ACC didn't like that.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: So for some reason, I don't know why they go out and hire Kevin Stallings, and he had a worse record than Jamie Dixon, had less success in the tournament, and this guy was supposed to be, oh, he's gonna do great, and this and that.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: And what he did do was he totally destroyed the Pitt Basketball program.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: They actually went 0-18 in ACC play, didn't win any games in the ACC, and it was part of an 0-19 streak.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm convinced he um only wanted to be here because his son Jacob, who actually ended up being a pretty decent baseball player, was playing for the Pirates, and he thought he could go see his son, you know, play baseball.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it it it was in the tournament the year before, you know, in 2016, and it's hard to like remember that, but Pitt was actually in the tournament that year, and that's when they like I don't I don't know, fire Dixon or uh that's not the right word.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like Dixon left, but it was kind of like they pushed him out.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and then yeah, he comes in and just they go from being a perennial postseason tournament team to being just like the worst team, like you said, the worst team in the conference, literally.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they they I don't think they've still recovered.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: They have not recovered.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: No, not really.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: They they I mean, and I think you might talk about the the guy after him, but yeah, but they really haven't.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um next up is the guy after Bob Barry, a gentleman named Pierre Cramer, and he's definitely from French Canada Canada.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um he he uh only one year in the NHL.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: He has a winning record.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: He's one of the few uh coaches that only coached for one year and has a winning record.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think he might be the only NHL coach to ever coach for one year.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um they had no defense, they allowed 316 goals in 1988, which was the sixth highest.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Mario was basically carrying the team.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and Tim sent me this story.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in a complicated playoff series, so they needed the win, and New Jersey needed to tie or lose.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: And he had all the I guess scenarios worked out on a sheet of paper so he can know how to coach the game.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: Why you wouldn't just coach the win the whole time, I don't know.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: So in the middle, and I guess in overtime or something, flashed a winning score for New Jersey, and the Penguins needed that team to lose.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: So Lemieux and Kramer start arguing in French, and some people say Lemieux pulled the goaltender, some people say Kramer pulled the goaltender, but they do, and then Mario like scores a great goal, and Larry Murphy, like it's on I wish I had video of that, and um they they win the game, but it doesn't matter because I think they ended up losing two more games, or New Jersey won another game and they didn't make the playoffs.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: Bottom line is they didn't make the playoffs for like the sixth straight year.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: So and they finished last in the Patrick division with a winning record, with a winning record, so yeah.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was it was it was they they like you said they flashed on the scoreboard that New Jersey had already won.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: So so now you can't finish in a finishing in a tie does you no good because New Jersey won.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: So they that means we have to win to stay alive.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so, well, that was fortunate, right?
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because both those games were going on at the same time.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: So how fortunate that you get the advantage, but they're in overtime, and they know because they because they flashed it on the scoreboard, they know, okay, the New Jersey game's over, we have to win.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: A tie, no, the a tie and a loss are the same thing, so you may as well just pull the goaltender at that point in overtime.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's tied, but a tie and a loss are the same thing, so you might as well you have to go for the win.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: And Pierre Kramer's like, no, we're keeping the goaltender in because he's not aware of the scenario, apparently.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the story that Mario started screaming at him and saying, No, you have no idea what you're doing.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: We have to win this game or our season's over.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: And Pierre Kramer apparently didn't agree with that and didn't understand that that was the case.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it was all in French, so this is all kind of hearsay, nobody really knows what was said.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's why we keep saying that's apparently what happened because you're right, nobody actually has the official story, but yeah, he gets fired after that.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I Mario apparently wasn't his biggest fan anyway.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, other fun stuff that um Pierre Kramer did, he served steaks before the game instead of what the penguins nutritionist wanted.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: So have a big porter house and go play 60 minutes of hockey, heck yeah.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he would double shift Lemiewing games that were already decided.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I I that sounds like a bad idea.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the penalty kill was terrible.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that was some reason the paper gave for him being fired.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: So fun facts.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um next up is um, yeah, he's an abject failure.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: Michael Haywood, who never coached the game.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: He never actually ever coached the game.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: He came in and yelled at the team for like 10 minutes.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: He was hired after Dave Weinstatt to clean this program up because oh my goodness, there's all this domestic abuse going on on the team.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: Which wasn't by Dave Wandstadt, it was by players, and Dave Weinstadt had disciplined them.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it was just a that was the excuse to get Dave Weinstad at out because he had the team had quitted on him that year, and the team, you know, hadn't underachieved in Wandstadt's tenure, so that was kind of Steve Peterson's excuse.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: So they go from a coach that's just kind of turning a blind eye to domestic abuse to a person really committing domestic abuse.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I guess he was fired after two weeks, he was arrested on felony, domestic abuse charges.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: Apparently he got an argue with his girlfriend, things got out of hand, he may or may not have hit her.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: The whole thing was settled out of court.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know if he co I think he's just like an assistant coach somewhere in the depths of college football.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um goodbye, Michael Haywood.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: We hardly knew ye.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't know.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: Any thoughts on this guy's tenure, which lasted a grand total of two weeks?
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: It was a joke that you could hire and and then and then they hired Todd Graham right after him.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're okay, fine.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna make this decision and move on from one.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like people have to understand, too.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: Dave Wand said was he bled blue and gold.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he he was a pit guy through and through.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: He was he was beyond loyal to the program.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: He was one of those people that you just again, he bled pit.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, he underachieved, and so I don't I can see where you would make the decision like, hey, we love you, but we've got to get more out of this.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: But the just the the the ridiculousness that they went through, hire a guy that that you have to fire two weeks later because he got arrested, then hire a guy that stayed for like eight games and left via text message, it you know, it just what a joke.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: What an extra.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think in two years, didn't they go through six head coaches or something?
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we talked about that before.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was like six coaches in two years.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: And and this was like this was at the same time that Penn State was going through all the stuff that they were going through.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that we could have taken advantage of and been, yeah.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and and it just yeah, not a not a not a good time in in the in the program's history.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it really it never it did not stabilize until really four years later when they hired Narduzzi.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's really when it started to stabilize.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think I think under Chris it started to stabilize.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: It started to, yeah, but then he left.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of like stability, though, like it started to get it started to improve, but in terms of stability, it really none of that came into the case.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think if Wisconsin never would have came calling, Chris would have been coached longer.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: I agreed, agreed.
• 58:41
  unknown: Yeah.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, um, we're gonna I'm going welcome to the hot takes.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: We normally don't do a lot of hot takes on our podcast, but uh what the heck.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're hundred and some episodes in, why not?
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going with overstayed their welcome.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: But um Mike Sullivan hired after Mike Johnson.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: We like people named Mike apparently.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the penguins and Sullivan apparently agree with you because they agreed to part ways just right around the time we're recording this.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: He's won two cups, that's a positive.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: He likes to play the speed game, and he likes to stick with his veterans.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the problem is the last two is they don't have the veterans to play the speed game anymore.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: So and he doesn't have a they don't have a goalie is probably their number one problem.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: So was it time for Mike Sullivan to move on, Tim?
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: I I i I I don't know.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's kind of like the they they went for this strategy of when when the team that won those cops started getting to the point where the window had had closed, instead of trying to rebuild, they kept trying to like patch it together to to keep keep it upright.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_01: So was that a mistake on management's part, or was it or you know, do you do you absorb absolve Sullivan of some of that?
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think the next couple of years is going to be telling because now they're clearly all in on a rebuild.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_01: They've stocked all these draft picks.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: To your point about goaltenders, they have the they have two guys, two guys that could really be the future in net.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: Fair enough.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: Also on here, Jeff Capel.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he's only made the NCAA once here since 2018, has barely a winning record at Pitt.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, really, even if you look back at his head coaching years at Oklahoma, he's only really had a good record twice.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think he fits into a better second banana.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: He's a second banana, not a head coach.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh he's a better recruiter, he's a very good recruiter.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do you think the NIL has hurt?
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: I I think the NIL has hurt him.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I I don't know what the fix for Pitt Basketball is, but it wasn't like he was a great coach before that, though, to be fair.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: He was a good assistant.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_00: He's a very good assistant.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, he was a and he came from from Duke, he came from Sheshewski.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: I I I I have been surprised that they stuck with him as long as they did, and I thought that was all Heather Lake, but then they fired Heather Lake and he's and he's still there.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I it's not like he has a like at least Mike Sullivan has two Stanley Cups.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: What is what has Jeff Capel ever done?
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, one tournament appearance, that's not a whole lot.
• 1:01:30
  unknown: No.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know if those two guys suck, but I wouldn't say they suck.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_00: They probably just overstayed their welcome.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_01: So so if if we're doing hot takes, Steve, there's one guy that you didn't put on that list.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: Who did I miss?
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_01: Who coaches the Pittsburgh Steelers currently.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's hard to he might be an overstayed the welcome kind of guy, Mike Tomlin, but he probably has.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you could almost say the same thing you say about Sullivan about him, stick with his veterans, you know, doesn't have a quarterback, doesn't have the most important position on the field filled, you know.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: Goaltender and hockey and quarterback and football are kind of like you can have a lot wrong.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have those two positions right, you're gonna be at least competitive.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: And and the Steelers, the Stewart's made the same mistake as the Penguins, where let's let's let's just keep trying to patchwork together a team so that our our vet in this case Ben Rothesberger, and in the Penguins' case, Crosby, Malgan, and Latang, yeah, so that those guys can maybe squeeze out one last run.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and that really failed both of those franchises.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: So do you blame the coach for that?
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean the coach is part of personnel decision making, but he's not the general manager, he's not ownership.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's a group decision, yeah.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_00: I I just think both cases, you know, sometimes it's better to kind of burn it down a little bit and start over.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes I've seen teams burn it down and they never recover.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess it depends on who's controlling the recovery.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is a this is kind of an unprecedented time for stability in this town.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you figure Narduzi's been there since 2015, Tomlin 2007, Sullivan 2015, uh Cape, what did you say Cape?
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_01: 2018, yeah.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: 2018.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, the Pirates, I could care less.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember how long Shelton's been there.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_01: But but um, yeah, I mean that the we have a lot of coaches who've been here for a while, and coaches, coaching is such a shaky profession.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's just kind of odd that this many coaches here this long, and none of those teams are some of them have had success, some of them haven't, but nobody's exactly like winning championships right now.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_00: I can see hanging on to Tomlin and Sullivan because they've had their success, and especially Tomlin kind of gives you that illusion of like, oh, we're gonna make the playoffs every year.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we'll see.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we're not getting fired when we don't suck on this podcast.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he doesn't suck as a fans.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we appreciate everybody listening to comments.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_00: Check us out on Facebook, Spotify, all the different other places that you can find the podcast at.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_00: Please keep listening and um appreciate everything, and uh, we'll see you next time on Fitzberg November.