Latest / Future Christian / Cross Before Resurrection: Josh Hayden on Remissioning the Church

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Cross Before Resurrection: Josh Hayden on Remissioning the Church · Future Christian

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>> Joshua Hayden: Foreign.
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>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Your
0:09
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:11
church in the 21st century. At the Future
0:14
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
0:18
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
0:20
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
0:23
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
0:27
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
0:29
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
0:32
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
0:35
you need for impactful ministry.
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And now for a little bit about the guest for this
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episode.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:46
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with Joshua
0:50
Hayden. Hayden is the co founder and co president
0:54
of Iowa Collaborative, which helps leaders fly
0:57
high and live low as they lead through change
1:00
processes in their community. He runs remissioning
1:04
trainings through Iowa Collaborative across
1:07
various denominational, non denominational and
1:10
global networks. Hayden is the Senior Pastor at
1:13
First Baptist Church in Ashland, Virginia. He has
1:17
worked and led in nonprofit organizations, church
1:20
plants and established churches. He has a
1:23
doctorate in leadership and organizational change
1:26
from Duke Divinity School and is the author of
1:29
Sacred Hope. He serves on the boards of numerous
1:32
nonprofits and he and his family live near
1:35
Richmond, Virginia. A reminder, before we start
1:38
today's conversation, please take a moment to
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1:47
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Shoot us an email@laurensonatemediapro.com with
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2:00
Your support means a lot to us in making this
2:02
podcast possible.
2:09
>> Loren: Hello. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
2:11
This is Loren Richmond Jr. And today I'm pleased
2:14
to be welcoming Reverend Dr. Josh Hayden to the
2:17
show.
2:17
Hello.
2:18
>> Joshua Hayden: Hey Loren, so glad to be here with you.
2:20
>> Loren: Hey, glad to have this conversation with you. Uh,
2:24
share if you would anything about yourself and um,
2:28
yeah, what's going on.
2:30
>> Joshua Hayden: Yeah, well I've been pastoring uh, for about 20
2:34
years. The first, uh, 11 years I was in a church
2:37
plant and now I've been in a very established
2:40
church um, for over 10 helping uh, remission an
2:44
existing church. Um, and to be honest, the last
2:47
three years of pastoring have probably been the
2:49
most joy filled years of pastoring I've ever had
2:52
in ministry. Um, my wife Shay and I, we met in
2:56
high school, dated, went to separate schools, had
2:58
two kiddos. Uh, my youngest son, uh, is a big into
3:02
track. My oldest son Rowan was uh, actually an
3:05
amazing soccer referee but he passed away earlier
3:07
this year, uh, really suddenly at the start of
3:10
2025, uh, to the flu. It's been Incredibly
3:14
devastating. Um, as you can imagine, we've kind of
3:18
occupied a space somewhere between, uh, the beauty
3:21
of the world and community and support and just
3:24
devastating, uh, heartache. But we've had a lot of
3:26
folks that have walked on this journey with us. I,
3:28
ah, feel really thankful in, uh, the midst of such
3:30
deep sorrow to have an incredible community to
3:34
support us. Um, but, yeah, but like everybody, um,
3:38
uh, in the world, we are trying, uh, to sort out
3:41
the complicated things that happen in life that
3:43
can disrupt everything, uh, from the ground up.
3:46
And somehow in the middle of all that, we sense
3:48
God's presence with us, uh, amidst our heartache
3:51
and grief. So, um, along with pastoring, I also
3:55
did a lot of work, uh, helping remission,
3:57
establish churches all around the country in the
4:00
US and also work with Church of England, Church of
4:02
Scotland, and, uh, yeah, rural church planning
4:06
networks and remissioning networks. And so, yeah,
4:08
I just feel really fortunate to get to do what I
4:10
do.
4:11
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing all that. I
4:13
especially appreciate just sharing that real
4:16
vulnerability with our listeners. You know, my
4:22
heart goes out to you and I'll, uh, be praying for
4:25
you like we talked about and for listeners, even
4:29
if you want to just pause this episode and say a
4:33
prayer for Josh and his family, we just, I just
4:37
pray God's peace and that presence that passes,
4:42
uh, all understanding to be with you and your
4:45
family.
4:46
>> Joshua Hayden: Thanks so much, Loren. I really, really appreciate
4:48
it.
4:49
And, um, I think sometimes when people hop on
4:52
podcasts and hear this interview, uh, great folks,
4:55
uh, sometimes it could be easy for us to think
4:57
that their life behind the scenes is everything's
5:00
okay. But I think it's important to know that even
5:03
when you publish a book and get to do creative
5:05
work, uh, the messiness of life still happens to
5:08
all of us. And so I appreciate, uh, the
5:10
opportunity to share a little bit of what my real
5:13
part of my life is like.
5:14
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, I am impressed. I guess if I can
5:21
change the energy somewhat. Like, you've met your
5:23
wife in high school and then, like, were you
5:27
dating in high school?
5:28
>> Joshua Hayden: Yeah, uh, so Shay was a year ahead of me in
5:31
school. Uh, so she graduated, went to a school in
5:35
the southern southwest part of Virginia, Virginia
5:37
Tech. And then I graduated a year later. I went to
5:40
James Madison University. And, um, we stayed
5:43
dating through all that time, separate colleges.
5:46
And, uh, we actually both did a lot of work with
5:48
young life at the time when we were in college.
5:50
And, um, at the time, actually her only, uh,
5:55
sister had been in a pretty devastating car
5:57
accident. And so sometimes you have these
5:59
Experiences that you're not sure if they're going
6:01
to make you or break you. And for us, it made us,
6:03
uh, kind of in the midst of that hardship and
6:05
suffering. Brought us closer together and, uh,
6:09
yeah, helped us to work through and wrestle with
6:11
our faith a lot, what it means to trust God in the
6:13
middle of hard things. And, um, you know, uh,
6:18
clearly we've had other hard things still happen
6:20
in our lives. But, you know, the way that
6:23
sometimes grief and sorrow works is that even in
6:25
the midst of hard stuff, the muscles you grow in
6:28
that time, they're not wasted. And so you learn
6:30
how to, yeah, keep, uh, facing the things that
6:34
happen in life. So, yeah, high school sweethearts.
6:37
Not usually the way I like to talk about it
6:39
because it always sounds a little cheesy, but it's
6:41
the truth. And, uh, yeah. Love, Sherry. She's such
6:44
a gift.
6:45
>> Loren: Wow. I want to ask and feel free to pass on this
6:53
and answer generically if you want to. I mean,
6:56
you're in this. Like, are you. Again, I want to
7:04
respect your boundaries here. So share if. If you
7:06
don't. If you want to pass. Like, is there a
7:10
devotional spiritual practice that's just been
7:13
supportive for you right now, for your family?
7:15
>> Joshua Hayden: I don't know. Yeah, there's. There's two. Uh, I'll
7:19
share one that's been helpful for my family, and
7:22
then I'll share one that's been helpful for me
7:24
personally. And then maybe some. Maybe some
7:27
categories, some buckets that have been helpful,
7:29
um, for us as a family, um, kind of being present.
7:36
So having so much proximity to suffering and
7:38
hardship. It's been really important for us to pay
7:40
attention to beauty, uh, to be reminded that there
7:43
are good things, beautiful things, ways that God
7:46
is at work in relationships in the world. So after
7:49
Rowan died, we actually, every day for weeks, we
7:52
would either walk out to see the sunrise or the
7:54
sunset together, um, or go look for one of our
7:59
favorite birds in the woods or something where we
8:01
could be reminded of the beauty of God. And so,
8:04
you know, it hasn't quite been a year yet, but we
8:07
still do something like this, uh, every day. One
8:09
of us will text the picture to each other just to
8:12
be reminded that there's beauty and goodness in
8:13
the world. Um, another thing that has been really
8:17
helpful for me personally has been to, uh, remain
8:20
rooted in my actual physical body. I think, uh,
8:26
sometimes it's hard to get out of bed or, um, to
8:29
know how to face the day. Um, and so actually
8:33
going for a walk or going for a run, exercising
8:35
has been really, really important. Um, I'm not a
8:40
fast runner, but I do run. And part of that has
8:43
been there's something about the plodding along on
8:47
the pavement, uh, the little, little bits of
8:52
suffering that happen on a run, um, that has been
8:56
really, really m. Meaningful. Um, I've been using
8:59
a hashtag on my runs called Learning to run with
9:01
Sorrow. There's times where my feet feel a little
9:05
heavier. There's uh, sometimes I'm chasing the
9:08
sunrise or sunset. Um, but actually feeling the
9:14
uh, present to my physical body has helped ah, me
9:16
connect with God. And so that's been really,
9:19
really essential for me. And um, some of the
9:22
frameworks that has helped us as a family kind of
9:24
navigate this and then me as a leader is that, you
9:27
know, we thought of kind of three buckets. How are
9:30
we kind of grieving and navigating life together?
9:33
>> Loren: Mhm.
9:34
>> Joshua Hayden: All three of us are in the same room or having a
9:37
similar experience. Um, and then the other bucket
9:41
has been, how do we grieve interdependently? Like
9:44
where we're. It doesn't cost anybody anything. So
9:46
if I go for a run at 5 in the morning, nobody else
9:49
has to get up. It doesn't affect anyone. I can
9:51
still walk the dog. Um, and all of us kind of have
9:55
things that are good for us but don't cost anyone
9:58
anything. Um, but then the last category or bucket
10:01
has been how do we grieve sacrificially? How do we
10:04
willingly do something that may not be the best
10:06
for us but is good for someone else we love?
10:08
>> Loren: Oh, wow.
10:09
>> Joshua Hayden: And in learning how to hold that, and it's always
10:12
felt so resonant in our faith, um, how do we hold
10:15
on to ourselves while also living generously and
10:18
sacrificially for the other? Um, it's not easy,
10:23
but sometimes we found that when we press into
10:25
that space, um, we can recognize that sometimes
10:30
the sorrow or the hardship is the thing that's
10:32
hard, not the sacrifice itself. And that's given
10:35
us a lot of grace for each other. And so, yeah,
10:39
those are the things that have been really, really
10:40
helpful this year. Um, and in some ways they are
10:44
like deeply resonant with the life of a leader
10:47
who's trying to lead through change in a church. I
10:51
mean, literally just a couple weeks ago, my wife
10:54
and I are talking about how our lives are being
10:56
remissioned in the aftermath of the loss of a
10:59
child. And so there's cross before resurrection.
11:03
And so what does that look like? And so, yeah,
11:06
it's A little bit of our faith is, uh. Yeah, we've
11:11
had to wrestle through it, but those are some of
11:12
the practices that have kept us grounded in the
11:15
midst of the everyday.
11:16
>> Loren: Yeah. First of all, just thank you for sharing and
11:19
your vulnerability and your willingness to share.
11:23
Um, I'm struck by that. Learning to run with
11:27
sorrow. I think that's something my co host Martha
11:32
would appreciate. We're both runners, you know.
11:37
She, frankly, is probably the best runner of the
11:39
three of us, I suppose. M. But I think, uh, uh,
11:46
I'm again, in the moment here struck by the
11:50
comment about the bucket of grief or the
11:52
sacrifice.
11:54
>> Joshua Hayden: Yeah, sometimes you have to grieve sacrificially.
11:58
You know, um, there. There are things that are
12:03
helpful for me that feel more costly for my wife
12:07
and. And my other son, Eli, because it's. It might
12:10
not be where they are on the grief journey, or it
12:13
might hurt them a little bit more to have to face
12:17
that in the moment. Sometimes it's the right thing
12:19
for us to do. And that's. That's true for either
12:23
of them. Like, there are times that, uh, you have
12:26
to kind of stretch and do something that might
12:27
make you uncomfortable. Um, maybe it's not your
12:30
preferred way to process something, but it's good
12:32
for someone else you love. And, um, I think in
12:37
this time when it is easy for us to maybe say
12:42
there's almost an overemphasis on how do we hold
12:44
on to self in the midst of difficulty and
12:46
challenge. We can lose sight that when you love
12:49
people, you are also willing to make sacrifices.
12:51
And I think it's important for us to recognize
12:54
that there's. There's cross before resurrection.
12:57
>> Loren: Yeah.
12:57
>> Joshua Hayden: Um, my family's being remade right now. And, um,
13:04
uh, that. That remaking that. That process, it
13:08
does involve some sacrifice, some loss. Um, and it
13:11
doesn't mean we're doing it to each other or at
13:13
each other, but when we can recognize that that
13:16
sacrifice is with each other and it's. It's rooted
13:19
out of love. Um, yeah, it helps us to recalibrate
13:24
to experiencing, experience resurrection with each
13:28
other, which has been really powerful. Um, and
13:31
sometimes in this journey, I discover things that
13:34
I didn't know that I could enjoy or like or I face
13:38
something that I was afraid of. But when I do it
13:41
sacrificially with someone else, uh, it's proved
13:44
to be really meaningful and stretched me and grow
13:46
in me.
13:48
>> Loren: Wow. I mean, this is so profound. So I thank you
13:52
for sharing. Uh, I think it's so powerful.
13:56
Those words you used about Sacrifice being rooted
13:59
in love. And you talked about your family's being
14:03
remissioned. Certainly your work is around
14:05
remissioning churches. I feel like in many ways
14:12
like this is the biggest challenge when it comes
14:14
to this work and I suppose we should explain it
14:17
here in a second. But when churches are no longer,
14:24
when people within churches are no longer willing
14:27
to be self sacrificial and root their actions in
14:31
love, like uh, is it already too late or like do
14:37
you, have you seen churches been able to recenter
14:42
in love and self sacrifice?
14:45
>> Joshua Hayden: Well, um, when I say the last few years of
14:49
pasturing have been the most joy filled, it's
14:51
because I have seen the kind of transformation
14:54
that is really only possible because of the depth
14:58
of sacrificial love that m. I've experienced with
15:01
people. Um, and a willingness to repent in own
15:05
ways that they have been destructive, uh, in their
15:08
own lives and relationships. I mean we had a 95
15:13
year old woman repent of the way that she worked
15:15
against the integration of public schools.
15:17
>> Loren: Wow.
15:18
>> Joshua Hayden: She's been holding that for 60 years in her life.
15:22
>> Loren: Mhm.
15:22
>> Joshua Hayden: And so um, I think sometimes we have to be willing
15:27
to pace that sacrifice process out instead of just
15:31
rushing people. We want people to be like light
15:32
switches that just automatically change, but
15:35
that's just not how people are wired. We don't.
15:38
The bulk of the change in our life happens like a
15:41
slow dimmer switch or like the sun waking up into
15:44
the day. It's, it's a slow steady process. But um,
15:48
yeah, I have, I have definitely seen this happen
15:52
in churches. Not just my own church, but in
15:54
churches that I work with. Um, but it requires a
15:59
shift from how do we, how do we just go from
16:02
survival.
16:03
>> Loren: Mhm.
16:04
>> Joshua Hayden: Into what does it mean for us to make lasting,
16:07
sustainable, good tasting fruit that our neighbors
16:10
and ourselves as a community would actually
16:13
identify as helpful and nourishing for the
16:16
community at large. Um, and I think the sacrifice
16:20
is hard when a church has basically spent most of
16:25
their time just counting things. You know, people
16:27
and money and programs and activities. Um, but
16:32
when we begin to recalibrate our understanding of
16:35
what kind of sacrifices are necessary so that we
16:37
can make disciples who reflect the life of Jesus.
16:42
And how do we grow people to imitate Jesus over
16:44
the course of their lives. I actually think that
16:46
people surprisingly really want a life that is
16:51
meaningful and they are willing to change the way
16:55
that they see people, the way they live. Um, as
16:59
long as there's a reasonable amount of expectation
17:02
that they can grow into that. Um, forming new
17:07
habits that it just doesn't happen in a day. Um,
17:11
and it does require loss, sacrifice, grief,
17:14
sorrow. Um, and so, yeah, I have seen it. Um, I've
17:20
seen it with real people, uh, I've experienced in
17:22
my own life, but I've seen it in the church that I
17:24
pastor and lots of the churches that I work with.
17:30
>> Loren: I'm struck by that, because I think what's coming
17:33
to mind for me are a couple different things.
17:35
Like, I'm thinking he somehow ends up in almost
17:39
every conversation, have Nandra Root's latest
17:41
book, if you're familiar, um, where he talks
17:46
about. Actually, this may be the last book,
17:48
Confession and Surrender, you know, as being
17:52
essential. I'm also thinking about his other book
17:58
about, like, the pace of how, like, modern life
18:02
assumes a pace for us that is not, you know, this
18:07
woman. I mean, however many years ago, 30, 40, 50
18:11
years ago. I'm also thinking about the gift of
18:17
confession for that woman, I imagine.
18:22
>> Joshua Hayden: Yeah.
18:23
>> Loren: Um, yeah. And the. Wow, so much good stuff here.
18:33
I'm not even sure what. What to respond to. But,
18:37
yeah, the sacrifice is hard when. It is hard, when
18:41
the focus is on counting.
18:43
>> Joshua Hayden: Yeah. And, um, what. What happens when we are
18:47
willing to kind of give room and space for
18:50
process, for people to actually be on a journey of
18:53
discovery together?
18:54
>> Loren: Yeah.
18:55
>> Joshua Hayden: Uh, uh, and we make room for confession and
18:58
repentance, but also room for resurrection and
19:01
restoration. Um, it actually helps people to see
19:05
things that they previously couldn't see. Um, so,
19:09
like, in my context, that that same family also
19:12
became aware because in a season where people were
19:16
trying to remove. Move me as pastor because of how
19:19
much work we were doing interculturally around
19:21
race, um, and so that led to a space of repentance
19:25
within our congregation. What happened next is
19:28
that we discovered other patterns where basically,
19:31
generationally, people had been, um, trying to
19:35
remove the pasture and had been passed down
19:37
through families.
19:38
>> Loren: Yes.
19:38
>> Joshua Hayden: Uh, because they had been discipled that way. And
19:40
so, um, this work, it takes a while. It takes time
19:46
to actually excavate, to exegete, uh, who we are
19:50
at the deepest levels, to understand our history
19:52
and the rhythms that make us work. And so, um,
19:56
that sacrifice is worth it. But it means that, uh,
20:00
what I've discovered is that, um, if leaders are
20:04
unwilling to go through that same level of
20:09
sacrifice and struggle that they're asking their
20:11
churches to consider in change processes, then the
20:15
church experiences their leaders, their pastors,
20:18
as just someone who. Well, they're trying to check
20:20
a box. They just want to change something because
20:23
they need to. They got to shake it up. A little
20:25
bit or this is their preference. They're just
20:27
trying to get their own way. But if, if we want
20:31
folks to be invited into this deep level of kind
20:34
of life, death and resurrection of Jesus, to find
20:36
themselves wrapped up in that story, then they
20:39
need to see us as leaders experiencing that same
20:43
depth of transformation. And then we invite people
20:45
into that process with us. And so it's, it's
20:50
really compelling to see how people translate that
20:54
work into other parts of their lives. And so, um,
20:58
and ultimately I don't want it to just be good for
21:00
their lives, but we want it to be good for the
21:01
neighborhoods, the community that our churches are
21:04
situated in. So yeah, I think for the challenge of
21:11
our kind of postmodern or post postmodern
21:14
situation is that sometimes we leave the sacrifice
21:18
element out of the story. I don't mean to get into
21:21
it in a like substitutionary or penal
21:24
substitutionary atonement theory. It's not even
21:26
about that. There is an element that in order for
21:29
any change to happen, uh, you have to die to a
21:34
version of self. Every time you learn something
21:36
new, your horizon expands. You have to no longer
21:39
see the world in a small way. It has to grow
21:41
bigger. You can be a faster runner. It's costly.
21:45
You have to run hills, you have to run faster in
21:48
smaller segments. And so you can learn to run
21:50
faster for longer segments. Um, it's not a bad
21:53
thing, uh, um, but it is loss, it is grief. And I
21:59
think it's, it's a bit contrary to our kind of
22:01
modern American um, sensibilities that we have to
22:05
give up something in order to grow. And that's not
22:07
just a Christian thing, it's a, it's a human thing
22:11
in, in this context, in the United States
22:14
especially.
22:15
>> Loren: Yeah.
22:15
Well, we've shared, you've shared so much good,
22:17
rich content here and thoughts. I guess, I suppose
22:23
we should like. We're talking about Josh's book
22:25
Remissioning Church, A field guide to Bringing a
22:28
Congregation back to life. And I think we should
22:32
explain, I should have you explain what you mean
22:35
by that word remissioning and why you've chosen
22:38
that over a revitalization. So talk more about
22:43
that if you can.
22:44
>> Joshua Hayden: Yeah, absolutely. I think this is one of my, I
22:47
think this is one of the most important questions
22:48
we can ask in thinking about um, what do we really
22:53
mean about change processes and a, ah, church
22:56
that's flourishing and for good of a community. So
23:00
when I talk about remissioning, I mean it's the
23:02
process of inside out transformation of the
23:04
church. Through discipleship for the sake of our
23:08
neighbors and world. Um, this means that it's a
23:11
purposeful, dedicated process that involves a
23:14
transformation of the leaders and the church
23:17
together for the sake of their community. And this
23:20
is really different than the way that I've
23:22
normally been around revitalization, which is also
23:24
a good thing. It's just a different kind of
23:26
process. Revitalization is often refreshing an
23:29
existing church to do its current work with more
23:33
clarity and usually with the goal of growth. Uh,
23:36
to revitalize something is to work harder and
23:39
smarter and more efficiently on existing programs
23:43
and events to help a church increase in relevance
23:45
to its community. But a remissioning church is
23:49
wrestling with a different set of questions and
23:51
principles. A remissioning church is asking, you
23:54
know, if our people gathered into our building and
23:56
the building fell into a sinkhole, would our
23:58
community even notice that we're gone? A
24:01
revitalizing church is usually asking, what do we
24:03
do to bring more people into our programs and
24:05
events? They're usually already relatively
24:08
healthy. Um, but revitalizing a church is much
24:12
more like updating an app on your favorite device.
24:15
Uh, revitalization helps, like an individual
24:18
program or app run more smoothly, use less
24:21
battery, crash less often, be more efficient. But
24:25
remissioning is, uh, updating the entire operating
24:28
system so that all the apps, the messages, the
24:31
processes fit into a new system, sync across
24:34
multiple devices, and actually work in different
24:37
parts of the world. Um, this means remissioning is
24:41
like a more thorough, at the, at the guttural
24:44
level, the core DNA of a church, of an
24:47
organization. It's, it's a, it's a deeper kind of
24:51
transformation work. Um, yeah, because it doesn't
24:55
mean that it's struggling. Um, sometimes a church
24:58
or an organization is really already experiencing
25:02
decline or dropout or headed toward death. Um, but
25:05
the real secret behind the remissioning work for
25:07
me is actually how do we help existing churches to
25:10
disciple people to navigate change while they're
25:13
healthy and growing instead of waiting until
25:16
things aren't okay? So, um, a remissioning church
25:21
is beginning with neighbor, uh, beginning with
25:24
things outside of themselves and asking, who do we
25:27
need to become in order for the kingdom to
25:28
flourish in our context, not just have our church
25:32
grow? Um, so revitalization is very helpful in
25:36
many contexts. But you can just see the data. The
25:39
bulk of churches are actually not thriving. Uh,
25:43
the bulk of churches are stuck. Um, it doesn't
25:45
mean they're all struggling, but they're losing
25:49
sight of how to translate the good news, uh, how
25:52
to imitate Jesus in a way that their neighbors can
25:54
really understand. So remissioning is kind of that
25:58
big, thorough work to ask, how's the whole of the
26:02
system, the whole of this church need to be
26:04
reorganized, uh, not just for our own good or so
26:08
that we grow people or grow programs, but how do
26:11
we actually, um, create the kind of flourishing in
26:14
the neighborhood where we're situated, um, where
26:18
our neighbors are as, ah, um, experiencing the
26:23
goodness of God as much as we are. Yeah.
26:26
>> Loren: Yeah. It's interesting because I think many
26:29
churches would want revitalization, but they would
26:34
tend to want to approach it in the themes that you
26:38
said. Uh, let's just tidy up some things here and
26:41
there. Let's have something come in that'll fix
26:43
us. Something that we're not really gonna have to
26:47
change or try too hard. Right. Yeah.
26:51
>> Joshua Hayden: No sacrifice.
26:52
>> Loren: Yeah.
26:53
This brings to mind. And you've already, you've
26:56
already kind of hinted at it, but in your book you
26:58
talk about Edwin Friedman's work. Um, I'm blanking
27:02
on the book now.
27:04
>> Joshua Hayden: Failure of nerve.
27:05
>> Loren: Failure of nerve. Uh, someone who's very fond of
27:08
family systems theory. Talk about whether it's
27:13
Freedman family systems theory or just kind of how
27:16
you see those dynamics within churches today.
27:21
>> Joshua Hayden: Yeah, I think kind of in a revitalizing context,
27:25
people are often thinking that if we just try
27:28
harder, if we get the right changes, things will.
27:32
If we can just, like, make a couple of updates to
27:34
our website or have easier ways for people to fill
27:37
out forms or a cool thing on our pew or seats
27:40
where people can scan a QR code, then it's going
27:42
to sort of fix the underlying issues of, uh, kind
27:47
of poor, mean spirited, stingy, uh, followers of
27:51
Jesus who don't actually love their neighbors or,
27:55
uh, export the mission of God to the professionals
27:57
somewhere else while we get to live however we
28:00
want in a way that's comfortable for us. And, um,
28:03
I think Friedman is really helpful here. You know,
28:06
he basically is like, conceptually stuck. Systems
28:10
don't become unstuck just by trying harder.
28:12
>> Loren: Yes.
28:13
>> Joshua Hayden: Um, and I would add, uh, they also don't become
28:16
unstuck with, like, a flashier church sign.
28:21
>> Loren: Are you sure? Because I'm convinced, ah, an LED
28:23
church sign is what every church that's struggling
28:26
needs.
28:27
>> Joshua Hayden: Uh, I talk a little bit about this in the book,
28:29
but there's a church near me that has a really
28:33
flashy LED sign, uh, but doesn't have a website,
28:37
which basically means that they are banking on
28:39
people driving by on this country road to find
28:43
them. Oh, and, um, yeah, it's just really, it's
28:47
really unfortunate. Um, but they're not the only
28:51
church that thinks this way. Like, there's,
28:53
there's a, there's a silver bullet, there's an
28:55
easy fix. Ah, right. And I think part of what
28:59
Friedman, uh, articulates is that people don't
29:02
change until basically the pain of staying becomes
29:05
greater than the pain of going.
29:07
>> Loren: Right, right.
29:08
>> Joshua Hayden: Um, but I'm wondering if, uh, part of why I think
29:13
remissioning a church rather than revitalizing is
29:15
so important is because I'm wondering maybe the
29:18
challenge is that we haven't been discipling
29:20
people to understand that this isn't a one time
29:24
embrace the cross as a pathway to new life. It is
29:26
a perpetual way of following Jesus. Uh, um, St.
29:31
Benedict says you have to keep death daily before
29:34
your eyes. Um, I'm wondering, can we disciple
29:38
people who are basically willing to embrace the
29:41
cross in their everyday existence, recognizing
29:45
that resurrection doesn't happen in our church or
29:47
in our community without some element of death?
29:51
Yeah, um, the phrase that I thought I was creating
29:55
at the time was creative destruction. When, uh, I
29:58
was doing my doctoral work, I thought I was making
29:59
up this term, uh, infused by pseudo Dionysius way
30:03
of talking about God as luminous darkness. I
30:06
thought I was kind of doing a faithful translation
30:08
of him. I had no idea it was an economics term. So
30:12
this English major had to do a lot of, uh, reading
30:16
about economics. And you might have seen actually
30:19
that, um, the Nobel Prize in economics this year
30:22
was around this theme of creative destruction as a
30:24
positive thing instead of a negative thing. And
30:28
the, um, idea of creative destruction is how do we
30:30
intentionally embrace the cross as a pathway to
30:32
new life? Um, normally in an industry this happens
30:36
to someone. So, uh, if you think of like um, uh, a
30:43
cassette company when CDs were created, uh, CDs
30:47
made cassettes, uh, unnecessary, outdated. Uh, um,
30:53
and then after CDs you've got MP3 players. And
30:57
then who has MP3 players anymore? You remember? I
31:01
think my first MP3 player could hold six songs on
31:03
it. You know, I think it was like.
31:06
>> Loren: I think like, uh, I feel like mine was under a
31:09
gig, that's for sure.
31:11
>> Joshua Hayden: Yeah, yeah. You know, mine, mine was like 500
31:14
megabytes. I think my first.
31:16
>> Loren: Yeah.
31:18
>> Joshua Hayden: Um, and so normally, you know, we think about
31:22
those things happening to an industry. CVS happen
31:25
to cassettes. Um, but, but what if actually a
31:29
church learned to embrace the cross as a pathway
31:32
to new life, where instead of seeing ourselves as
31:35
so completely tied to our methodologies, we Were.
31:38
We were faithful stewards and translators of the
31:41
mission. Ah, that God's inviting us into all the
31:44
time. Um, what if we could disciple people to say,
31:48
uh, to new leaders or younger generations instead
31:51
of saying to them, that's not how we do things
31:53
here. Uh, what if we actually could disciple
31:57
people to say, hey, um, we're going to be
32:00
uncomfortable sometimes, but we realize that we
32:02
have to faithfully translate the gospel. The good
32:05
news. We need to live on mission in a way that is
32:08
good for the following generations so that we
32:12
could stop passing on this hesitancy, this
32:14
resistance, and instead pass on a, uh, deeper
32:18
commitment to. To love God and neighbor in the
32:21
fullest extent that we can.
32:23
>> Loren: Yeah.
32:24
>> Joshua Hayden: Um, I know that I would. I would love to pass that
32:27
on to the next generation of people. Um, but I
32:30
know that it's hard because it involves that
32:33
there. There are things already. You know, just.
32:35
Even the way some. The younger staff in my church
32:37
use AI to create things, I was like, oh, I just
32:40
would have literally never thought of that. Um,
32:44
it's so helpful to be disrupted. Uh, but it is
32:48
uncomfortable.
32:48
>> Loren: Right?
32:49
>> Joshua Hayden: It requires something of me, too. Yeah. So
32:52
Friedman, I think, is helping us to recognize that
32:55
just these technical changes, flashy things on the
32:58
surface, is not the deep kind of soul work that's
33:02
necessary for an organization to experience
33:04
change.
33:05
>> Loren: Yeah. I'm thinking of my past conversation with
33:07
Angela Gorell, where we talk about the acute pain
33:12
versus chronic pain. How, you know, we're so often
33:15
willing to live with chronic pain, but not. What
33:18
scares us is the acute pain.
33:21
Uh, uh, I'm struck by your point about
33:24
discipleship and this idea that the life of faith
33:28
is hard. Do you think? I mean, certainly within
33:31
American culture, like, especially the last. Gosh,
33:36
I feel like 10 years is been this. Like, whether
33:41
it's social media or whether it's the broader
33:43
culture at large, like, life is supposed to be
33:45
easy. Like, if we. If life is easy, like, we're.
33:47
We're in the right place. And I. I feel like
33:51
there's some. There's some aspect that what we
33:55
would, like, affirm, like if we're in God's plan
33:59
and purpose for our lives, that there is some
34:01
level of ease. But, I mean, your testimony quite
34:05
clearly, Josh, is that discipleship and
34:09
faithfulness does not always lead to daisies and
34:15
roses.
34:16
>> Joshua Hayden: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think m. Uh, it's tricky
34:22
sometimes for people to know how to talk to me
34:24
because I think, um, uh, at some level, there's a
34:29
sense that, okay, my kid died. Uh, I've Got a
34:33
sister in law who's experienced a traumatic brain
34:35
injury as a result of a car accident. She can't
34:38
feed herself or walk. Um, is this some kind of
34:42
sign that God's against us or we don't have God's
34:45
blessing or some secret sin in our life or some
34:47
craziness like that? I um, think the kind of core
34:52
thing that we've forgotten is that Jesus says very
34:54
simply and it's in pretty much every gospel and if
34:57
anybody wants to be my disciple, they must take up
34:59
their cross and follow me.
35:00
>> Loren: Yeah.
35:01
>> Joshua Hayden: And I think somewhere in here, somewhere along the
35:04
way we sort of lost that as like a core part of
35:08
the story. We've, we've basically said that it's
35:11
your best life now.
35:12
>> Loren: Mhm.
35:12
>> Joshua Hayden: Resurrection life. Uh, it's ah, there's elements
35:19
of prosperity that we've like made. We've in my
35:23
opinion like we've inappropriately connected to
35:26
what it means to walk with Jesus. Um, if it was
35:31
all about protection and hard things not happening
35:33
in our lives and certainly how do we imitate Jesus
35:36
then? Because he perpetually walked into
35:38
situations with people where he was misunderstood,
35:42
betrayed by even his closest friends and disciples
35:44
when they needed him most. Um, it's really
35:48
critical to understand that when Jesus invites us
35:50
into that cross shaped life, it wasn't a joke, it
35:54
wasn't the optional part of our journey. But that
35:58
doesn't mean that the cross leads uh, us to a
36:03
place where we're just beaten down, broken. Uh,
36:06
there is no resurrection. Uh, it is resurrection,
36:10
life to the full, but it's resurrection that still
36:12
bears the marks, the scars of the wounds that was
36:16
endured.
36:17
There's two passages of scripture so helpful for
36:20
me in this one is um, that on the other side of
36:23
resurrection, Jesus's body still bore the marks of
36:27
the wounds, the scars on his body. And the other
36:30
is when Jesus uh, is sending out the disciples to
36:33
live on mission. At the end of Matthew 28, um,
36:37
this word for doubt, uh, it's one of the only
36:41
places that this word is used in the Greek. And
36:44
what strikes me in that space is that Jesus
36:47
doesn't separate the worshipers from the doubters,
36:49
from his friends, his disciples. He, he welcomes
36:53
them all and then he sends them all in the midst
36:55
of their faith and their doubts to live on
36:57
mission. And uh, we don't have to get this place
37:01
where it's all together. And I think sometimes in
37:04
our American context especially we have sort of
37:07
lifted up a certainty of belief as if that is all
37:11
that God's Interested in, um, we've lost room for
37:14
mystery.
37:15
>> Loren: Yeah.
37:16
>> Joshua Hayden: Um, or we have kind of bought into some of the
37:20
mythology of our kind of cultural context where
37:23
the goal is to obey our thirst, have our best life
37:26
now. And so, um, there, there's a. Yeah, we've
37:35
been real, so I'll just be real. Um, I trust God
37:39
more knowing that he has experienced death than
37:44
before. I had to, ah. When I held my kid and he
37:47
died. And so, um, there's an element of withness
37:51
of suffering.
37:52
>> Loren: Mhm.
37:53
>> Joshua Hayden: That I understand now at a deeper level in my
37:56
bones.
37:57
>> Loren: Yeah.
37:57
>> Joshua Hayden: I wish that I didn't have to experience it or know
38:01
it. It's devastating.
38:03
>> Loren: Yeah.
38:04
>> Joshua Hayden: But there, there's this deep sense that I actually
38:08
trust God more in the unknowing and that mystery
38:11
of suffering, that, that cross that will shape the
38:15
rest of my life, of having held my kid as he died.
38:19
And so I, I do think that when we have made, uh,
38:27
suffering and death so far from us, it's difficult
38:30
for us to really embrace that in our churches
38:33
because we really even. We call funeral
38:36
celebrations of life.
38:37
>> Loren: Right, right.
38:39
>> Joshua Hayden: It's difficult for us to really like believe that
38:42
somehow God suffers with us.
38:44
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
38:47
>> Joshua Hayden: So that's a little more real, uh, and personal
38:51
than I always bring this to. Um, but there is an
38:56
element of trust for me and in believing, uh, in
39:02
the goodness of God because God has suffered and
39:05
died. Like, like people I love have suffered and
39:08
died.
39:09
>> Loren: Uh, yeah.
39:12
>> Joshua Hayden: That's powerful.
39:14
>> Loren: I'm thinking too. I'm not sure if your church or
39:17
tradition practices the more liturgical elements
39:21
of the Christian year, but I'm thinking as we're
39:24
recording this, we're in the second week of
39:27
Advent, and Advent is about the now or the where,
39:34
the already and the not yet. And I guess what
39:40
strikes me in that, what hits me in that is like,
39:44
like you've. Your life is testimony, testament of.
39:50
There's a not yet, you know, And I think for, for
40:00
the life of faith. Right. For the, for the life of
40:02
a church is, is trying to live in that. That now
40:07
and that not yet, if I'm hearing you right, at
40:11
least.
40:12
>> Joshua Hayden: Yeah. Um, I think, uh, what's the phrase? Like
40:18
sometimes we're so heavenly minded that we're no
40:20
earthly good.
40:21
>> Loren: Right.
40:22
>> Joshua Hayden: Um, that the not yet, uh, is the reason why
40:26
sacrifice in the cross is necessary. If it was all
40:32
sorted out, it was all done. And it's not because
40:36
we're saving each other, but because Jesus and God
40:40
for whatever creative, beautiful and probably
40:44
slightly crazy reason invites human beings to
40:46
participate as citizens of the kingdom. We are
40:50
participating in the already and the not yet. In
40:53
the fullness of our bodies and our relationships
40:55
and our communities. We have incredible
40:58
breakthroughs where people work towards the
41:01
flourishing in the neighborhood integration, uh,
41:05
of uh, relationships, uh, intercultural wholeness.
41:10
And at the same time we recognize that there's
41:12
still room, there's still places we have to go,
41:15
places that have not yet been touched by the power
41:18
of that kind of uh, cross and resurrection life.
41:21
And so it's, it's essential for us to hold that
41:24
space.
41:25
>> Loren: Yeah.
41:25
>> Joshua Hayden: And sometimes we can over emphasize uh, what we
41:29
think will happen on the other side without
41:31
leaving room for people who are still stuck in the
41:34
not yet, whose lives will be shaped by the not yet
41:38
forever. Um, uh, the reality is all of us are
41:42
shaped by the not yet. We just have different. We
41:45
have various levels of surrender to that. And so,
41:48
um, I remember a few years ago I had a really good
41:52
friend who, who died. Right, right. Heading into
41:54
the first week of Advent. He's 38, he was lifting
41:57
weights and just had a heart attack. Passed away.
41:59
He's a pastor as well and just a good friend.
42:02
>> Loren: Mhm.
42:03
>> Joshua Hayden: And I remember uh, doing the graveside for um,
42:07
him. And one of the things I talked about is this,
42:10
like the first week of Advent is apocalyptic. It's
42:14
revealing, Right. It's showing us what's happening
42:17
underneath the surface. And I think when we, when
42:21
we're talking about leading through change
42:23
processes, what it means for us to experience
42:25
remissioning both in our individual lives, but
42:27
also as a collective group of people. It's an
42:30
apocalyptic experience. It's revealing the beauty
42:34
and goodness of ways God has been at work in our
42:37
history and our past. But also reveals to us the
42:40
places where things have not yet, uh, been made.
42:43
Right.
42:44
>> Loren: Mhm.
42:45
>> Joshua Hayden: They've not yet been restored to the way God
42:47
always intended for them to be. And um, it is
42:52
somewhere in here when we learn to hold those
42:54
things together, that a church learns how to
42:59
remain grounded in the mission of what it means to
43:03
love each other and love their neighbors and to
43:05
love our neighbors as ourselves, to have grace for
43:08
ourselves, to be in the process. Um, we've clearly
43:12
gone in lots of different directions already in
43:14
this interview. Um, but it reminds me something
43:17
that I wish more folks would ask me about. It's
43:22
that the remissioning process and kind of honoring
43:25
this not yet space. Some of what's difficult is
43:28
that it can be shame inducing for a church that
43:31
has that revelation of like, oh my gosh, sure, we
43:34
have blown it. Yeah, we've done it for a long
43:37
time.
43:37
>> Loren: Yeah.
43:38
>> Joshua Hayden: And you can't, you can't. Um, some leaders try to
43:44
save them from that experience when it is often
43:48
the exact cross that they need to, to die on
43:52
versions of themselves so that resurrection is
43:54
possible.
43:54
>> Loren: Yes.
43:56
>> Joshua Hayden: And so there's a danger in all this work for us to
43:59
actually short circuit people's discipleship
44:01
processes by making them too comfortable, uh, by
44:04
not believing that, uh, the taking up our cross as
44:08
a pathway to resurrection is actually what Jesus
44:11
meant. It means wrestling through our shame. Um,
44:15
you know, there's a, there's a great, There's a
44:18
story of a lady who was in our church for a while
44:20
when we were kind of navigating change around our
44:23
worship services. Um, we used to have two
44:25
different style of worship services. When I got to
44:28
the church I'm at. One was a contemporary service.
44:32
By contemporary, I mean, it was like a less formal
44:34
funeral.
44:35
>> Loren: Sure.
44:37
>> Joshua Hayden: It was like 8:30 in the morning. I still had to
44:39
wear a suit. Uh, we sang songs from like the 70s
44:43
and 80s. There was nothing actually contemporary
44:45
or modern about it. And then we had an 11 o' clock
44:48
traditional service that was like a formal
44:50
funeral. It was very rigid. I could never hear
44:52
anyone sing. It was really uncomfortable. And we
44:55
went on this journey where for like 20 weeks, we
44:57
disrupted, we did things from both services and
44:59
then things we had never done before. And we saw
45:02
more people get baptized and join our church than
45:04
we had experienced in like 10 years. And I had a
45:07
woman call me afterwards and she was so kind. She
45:11
was like a very sweet person. She's like, Josh,
45:14
you've led through this journey really generously.
45:16
You've made space for us to give feedback. You
45:20
know, to be honest, I'm a formerly trained singer
45:23
and so singing some of these songs, I just don't
45:24
really like them because it's not my style.
45:27
>> Loren: Mhm.
45:27
>> Joshua Hayden: She's like, but ultimately it's just, it's just
45:30
been really hard. And I was like, hey, would you
45:33
share with me a little bit about what's been so
45:35
difficult about this? She's like, well, every week
45:38
I could come on a Sunday. I knew what to expect. I
45:41
knew the flow of the service. I could sort of
45:44
count on things. And I'm like, oh yeah, that is
45:47
really hard. That is kind of add some
45:51
disequilibrium to your life. Uh, I was like, could
45:54
you tell me more about this? And she's like, well,
45:58
to be honest, like, my husband died.
46:01
>> Loren: Yeah.
46:02
>> Joshua Hayden: My daughter got divorced and my daughter and
46:04
grandkid moved in with me. Like, it's just really
46:07
difficult to not know what to expect. Um, and I
46:12
just said to her, I was like, I'm so sorry, like,
46:14
we failed you as a church. She's like, what do you
46:18
mean? I m. Was like, gosh, all these years we
46:21
could have been helping you to grow muscles
46:23
through navigating change together, having little
46:26
bits of sacrifice and experiencing new life on the
46:30
other side that would have actually equipped you
46:32
to have the muscles you need to navigate the
46:34
losses and hardship and grief and changes that
46:37
happen week to week, year to year. But instead, we
46:40
actually short circuited your entire discipleship
46:43
process by fooling you into thinking that the goal
46:45
is to figure out how do we just keep things the
46:47
same?
46:48
>> Loren: Yeah.
46:48
>> Joshua Hayden: How do we remain comfortable?
46:50
I'm so sorry that we failed you. Like, I'm sorry
46:53
that we didn't help you to navigate change in a
46:56
safe way with community so that you know that it's
46:58
actually a good thing in your life, even when it's
47:01
hard. And, um, I think a lot of churches get stuck
47:05
in these cycles where we're afraid to navigate the
47:08
hard stuff because we're afraid that it's going
47:10
to, um, disrupt people's life. Uh, it's going to
47:15
lead to an exodus in the church or a loss of
47:18
money. But we, we know by not navigating change,
47:22
we're already seeing churches lose people, lose
47:24
money, lose influence and goodness in their
47:27
community. Um, and I think a big part of it is
47:30
because we've dropped the, the cross part. The
47:33
cross shaped part of our, of our discipleship with
47:36
people.
47:36
>> Loren: Yep, that's that acute versus Chronic pain for
47:39
sure.
47:40
>> Joshua Hayden: Yeah.
47:40
>> Loren: Well, this has been, this has been such a rich
47:42
conversation. I feel like we should move on to
47:45
some closing questions. And, uh, I have to give a
47:49
shout out to my, my favorite family systems
47:52
teacher, Jack Chitama, who, if you don't follow
47:55
his work, you should, uh, listeners too. But he
47:58
always says all change is loss, and it's so true.
48:07
Uh, let's do these closing questions. And I feel
48:09
like this has been such a heavy conversation, so,
48:11
you know, feel free to stay on theme or if you
48:14
know, if you want to take these somewhat
48:16
unseriously, that'll be fine too.
48:19
If you're pope for a day, what might that day look
48:24
like for you?
48:27
>> Joshua Hayden: Wow, that is a fantastic question. Uh, and I'll be
48:32
gentle with this since my wife and her family is
48:35
very, ah, Catholic. And so I'll be sensitive to
48:37
how I answer this question. Um, I think for me,
48:41
um, if I was Pope for a day, I'd want to go visit
48:44
some of the places where the church is growing in
48:47
some of the poorest countries in the world and
48:49
have a chance to just bear witness, uh, to how the
48:52
Spirit is breaking in. And then I would love uh,
48:55
an opportunity to see whatever amazing writing
49:00
Henry now and Thomas Merton, uh, uh, have hidden
49:04
somewhere around and see if there's like some
49:07
secret vault of ah, you know, recordings or things
49:11
like that. Um, but I think I would be, it would be
49:15
really special to just make a visit to a country
49:19
and a place I've never been to and just see how
49:21
the church is growing, um, ah, amongst um, some of
49:26
the poorest communities on the planet, uh, but who
49:30
are experiencing the deep joy of God. I, uh, think
49:33
that would be really powerful.
49:34
>> Loren: Yeah.
49:35
Speaking of things that don't compute right with
49:37
American Christianity, like the idea that someone
49:40
can be destitute but also feeling blessed, uh,
49:45
like that does not compete with American
49:47
Christianity, broadly speaking.
49:50
>> Joshua Hayden: Absolutely.
49:51
>> Loren: A theologian or historical Christian figure you'd
49:53
want to meet or bring back to life.
49:58
>> Joshua Hayden: Wow. Um, I think one of the people I'd love to
50:02
meet that's alive right now is Rowan Williams,
50:05
former Archbishop of Canterbury. Um, uh, actually
50:10
uh, my oldest son Rowan, who passed away was named
50:13
after just his influence. Uh, I appreciate the,
50:17
the depth and creativity, uh, his appreciation of
50:21
the desert fathers and mothers, um, and the place
50:26
that he makes room for doubt as a part of our
50:30
Christian journey. And so, um, he's a person I'd
50:34
love to meet. Um, and then Henry Nou would
50:37
probably be the other one.
50:38
>> Loren: Ah, sure.
50:39
>> Joshua Hayden: Yeah, yeah. His writings have ah, had an
50:42
incredibly profound influence in my day to day
50:45
existence.
50:47
>> Loren: Yeah.
50:48
What do you think history will remember from our
50:50
current time and place?
50:53
>> Joshua Hayden: Yeah, um, I think that one of the shadow sides
50:59
that it will remember is our inability to slow
51:03
down enough to actually listen to each other and
51:06
believe, believe the, the way that one another
51:10
describes the pain that we experience as a result
51:13
of how we treat one another. I m think there'll be
51:16
some harsh judgment that with all these tools
51:20
available to us to connect virtually, uh, in
51:24
person, relationally, that we haven't always
51:26
slowed down to really hear one another and the
51:29
depth of pain and brokenness that exists in
51:32
relationships. Um, uh, I also think that we will
51:36
see this as a time where the church is being
51:40
broken and made new. Um, I do think that this is
51:44
the beginning, um, of a kind of deep ah, dying
51:49
period where resurrection will be on our horizon.
51:52
I don't know that I'll get to experience it. But,
51:56
um, I sense that I'm right now helping plant trees
51:59
whose shade I might not enjoy. But I do find deep
52:03
meaning. And knowing that, um, and I'm putting
52:06
some seeds in the ground.
52:07
>> Loren: I mean, I think it connects with your broader
52:10
work. Like, again, we have this idea that change,
52:14
transformation is instantaneous and that's just
52:17
not. Just not how it works. Yeah, I guess you've
52:23
kind of hinted at it there already. What do you
52:25
hope for the future of Christianity?
52:29
>> Joshua Hayden: I would love it if, in the ways that we think
52:32
about exegeting Scripture, that we were as willing
52:35
to spend the time exegeting our churches and
52:37
neighborhoods. Um, what would it look for us. Look
52:41
like for us to not just think about remissioning
52:44
and leading through change? Because it's not like,
52:47
how do we scratch this itch or because we're
52:49
bored, how do we just do something different? But
52:53
what does it look like for us to pay attention to
52:55
the multiple kinds of people in our community? Uh,
52:58
what are the places and rituals and practices, the
53:01
values, the dreams, the fears, like, between who
53:06
our churches are and who our neighbors are, and
53:09
how do we identify those gaps and wrestle with it
53:11
together? Um, I hope that we spend more time
53:15
exigening relationships and people and not just,
53:19
uh, spending the bulk of our time worrying about
53:22
beliefs, but do that deep listening work with each
53:27
other.
53:27
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, the book is Remissioning Church A
53:31
Field Guide to Bringing a Congregation Back to
53:34
Life. Josh. I mean, there's so much we didn't talk
53:38
about that's in the book. And I guess it's good,
53:41
right? Like, hopefully we gave people a taste and
53:44
they want more. Um, but I'm really grateful for
53:47
this conversation. I pray that, you know, for you
53:50
and your family. I pray it's been a blessing to
53:52
you and we always leave folks with a word of peace
53:55
and certainly we mean it today. May God's peace be
53:57
with you.
53:59
>> Joshua Hayden: Thanks so much, Loren. It's been a joy to be with
54:01
you. And, uh, thanks for making space for real.
54:05
Very, very real conversation. Means a lot.
54:13
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
54:15
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
54:18
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54:21
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54:24
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54:26
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54:41
Thanks and go in peace.