Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Lisa Ferentz. Humor, Faith & Self-Compassion In The Time of COVID: from the archives

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Lisa Ferentz. Humor, Faith & Self-Compassion In The Time of COVID: from the archives · The Trauma Therapist

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Or today we even another episode from the archives with one of my incredible guests,
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enjoy or welcome back to the Traumaverst Podcast. My name is Gaming Person.
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My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to be
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human, to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer
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in who we are is more important than what we know, and this requires
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cultivating authenticity, genuineness and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more
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about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist Project dot com.
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That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started. Are you ready
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to do it? I'm ready, all right, all right, here we
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go. So five four, three, two and one, our folks,
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welcome back to the Trauma the Everst Podcast. I am thrilled to have back
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Lisa France on the podcast. Lisa, welcome again. Thank you, Gret.
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I always love being with you. Awesome. So, as you probably
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know or should know, Lisa is a recognized expert in the strengths based the
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deep pathologized treatment of trauma. It's been in private practice for thirty four years.
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She presents workshops and keynote addresses nationally and internationally, and as a clinical
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consultant to practitioners and mental health agencies in the United States, Canada, in
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the UK and Ireland. Lisa's been an adjunct faculty member at University of Maryland
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School of Social Work, University of Baltimore, Maryland, University of Maryland Department
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of Family Medicine, and as a founder of the Friends Institute formerly known as
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the Institute for Advanced Psychotherapy Training and Education, now in its twelfth year.
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In two thousand nine, Lesa was voted Social Work over the Year by the
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Maryland Society for Clinical Social Work. She's an author of Treating Self Destructive Behaviors
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and Trauma Survivors Inititions Guide, now in its second edition, also Letting Go
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of Self Destructive Behavior as a workbook of hope and healing, and also Finding
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Your Ruby Slippers Transformative Life Lessons from the Therapist count so awesome. All right,
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So before we dive in here, remind our listeners and myself where are
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you currently right now? I think I'm in Baltimore, Maryland. Okay,
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I mean, but I'm also in limbo like everybody else in the world.
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Right So, I'm in Baltimore and I'm in limbo just like you. Yeah,
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yeah, how are you doing? Just oh, thank you for asking,
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I would say, mostly really well, And I think I'm doing everything
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in my power to lead with gratitude. You know, I have to tell
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you, as a clinician, I did not lose a day of practice and
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I'm extraordinarily grateful for that. And you may or may not know, but
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I like to I actually call myself Wilma Flintstone in that I was of the
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absolute adamant belief that therapy could only happen face to face. I would never
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ever do anything online. And my institute, all of our trainings in Baltimore
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have always been live as well, and I have to say that it's been
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although there's been a learning curve, it's it's actually been gratifying to discover that
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there are ways to transfer this work. And again, I just am holding
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with a lot of gratitude that I was able to continue to do the therapy
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with my clients and continue to offer our trainings in an online format. So
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you know, that's that's gone a long long way towards um allowing me to
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navigate what for most of us has been very challenging and difficult. Yeah,
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was, um, is there are there two sides to that? You said
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you didn't miss a beaten for in terms of seeing clients. Was obviously that's
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good, but it seems like it might be challenging. It's like you're trying
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to get deal with the present situation too. You're you're right, and I've
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actually it's interesting. One of the talks that I've been asked to do in
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many different iterations now online is exactly that, you know, helping mental health
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providers to be able to hold their own you know, reactions and emotions about
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all of this and still be arbiters of hope for our clients. And you
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know, sometimes it's really really challenging, and we have to learn how to
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kind of contain and compartmentalize and continue to have that balance so that we're making
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sure that we're taking care of ourselves and processing, you know, with whomever
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we feel safe, processing with the impact that all of this is having on
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us, so that we really can stay fully grounded and present for our clients.
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Well, let's let's dive a little bit into that. I mean,
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what has it been like for you to to do this? Yeah, again,
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initially I was very reticent. I you know, I, as you
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know, I work with profoundly traumatized folks, and for me, energetically being
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in the same room with somebody, you know, is three quarters of the
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work as far as I'm concerned, UM, Being able to see their whole
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body, being able to you know, read all of those nonverbal cues such
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an essential part of the work that most of us who are trauma informed,
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you know, include in the paradigms that we use, and so you know,
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to get a profile of somebody and to feel, you know, that
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there's some degree of distance because there's glass between us. UM. In the
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beginning, it was it was challenging. It was challenging in the therapy when
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there's a big sheet of glass standing up there as well as your masks and
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so forth or whatever. Yeah, well no, so I I immediately I
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see, I would not do therapy wearing masks. So I stopped in person
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therapy a year ago. Now, you know, I felt that it would
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be so triggering for a trauma survivor to attempt to feel comfortable, comfortable and
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safe with me if they can't see this much of my face, you know,
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UM, and it would make it really difficult for me to fully appreciate
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and understand what was happening for them if I can't see their whole face,
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and so I immediately you know, transferred into the online format, so you
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know, I see the whole face. And there are definitely tons who are
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working with the body. I'll invite the client to lower their screen so I
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can really see their breathing and have a clearer sense of you know, what's
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happening for them. But it's challenging they have they get interrupted. So many
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folks have young children who are either doing one hundred percent virtual learning or hybrid
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learning right and so you know, I do therapy sessions and I've learned to
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ask, you know, do you have privacy? Are you alone in the
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room? Is there the likelihood that will be interrupted? What do you have
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to do as soon as you click end meeting with me? Because you know,
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many many folks have stayed very committed to doing therapy, but they click
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end meeting and five seconds later they're back on zoom doing a business meeting.
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So you know that context is important that for therapists to take into consideration because
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it's going to dictate how deeply we go, how emotional. You know,
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the client is going to get in that session, and how much time I'm
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going to leave at the end of the session to do containment and regrounding,
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really making sure they're fully back in their prefrontal cortex, you know, if
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they have to leave with me and then you know, sound intelligent in a
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business meeting. So what's the part of the loss? And you know,
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I've always said so much of COVID is about loss. You know, so
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many different kinds of losses. But one of the losses that for clients and
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therapists alike, is that transitional space where a client, you know, could
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end a session and then maybe even sit in their car for a couple of
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the drive home, have a drive home, you know, have that space
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so that they can decompress, so that they so that they can do a
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little bit of containment, so that they can allow some of what came up
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to kind of resettle. And that's not happening, you know, or very
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committed clients who want to still do the weekly work, but the context is
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completely different. You know, they do the work and then they have to
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help their kids with algebra. So you know, that's that's been challenging.
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That's interesting. I've heard a lot of people talk about, you know,
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the challenges of doing things online with Zoom for example, but not so much
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about the context Like you're saying, well, what are you doing exactly afterwards?
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You know, is there going to be that space? Can you take
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the space which also impacts what you're going to be doing or able to do
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in session as well too. Yeah, that's right, that's right. And
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so I think it's requiring both the therapist and the client a tremendous amount of
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fluidity and flexibility and spontaneity. And you know, we can be working on
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something for two three weeks. You know, that's very deep and rich.
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But in the fourth visit, if the client says to me, listen,
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my kids in the next room, you know, we shift gears. And
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I think you have to allow for that kind of flexibility given that larger you
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know, contextual reality. Right now, what are you seeing, Lisa in
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terms of how your clients are just dealing with all this? And I realized
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everyone has their own story, but in general, are people coming to you
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just even more burden? I mean, to me, just let me just
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say this. When then all this stuff hit for me, I was nuts.
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I mean, I was so anxious, right, I was someone who
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and still am, I love to keep abreast of the news, and I've
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just found myself, you know, the kids were home suddenly, my wife
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fortunately was able to work, and then now I've got two kids and all
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this crazy news. I was going nuts. I was like, if I
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want to keep it together, I've got to stop and stop, you know,
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create some boundaries for myself, which fortunately I did, but it's it's
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still very, very challenging. Yeah, yeah, you're hitting on something.
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I'm so glad you brought it up, because with any other intervention that we're
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doing as clinicians right now, I still think one of the most powerful and
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necessary interventions is really being directive with our clients about saying, stop watching the
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news. Stop and so you know, stop going down the rabbit hole of
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social media. Certainly, do not watch the news before you go to bed.
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This has become something I'm reminding my clients about pretty much every session,
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because whether it's COVID, or it's politics, or it's civil unrest or you
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know, unfortunately, we've had a confluence of a lot of really frightening and
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anxiety producing things in our world. In the last year and so you know,
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what clients eventually do figure out is that when they make this this conscious
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effort to not go down that rabbit hole, so to speak, they are
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less anxious. They do feel common. And by the way, watching the
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news all day long doesn't help you in any way, right because so much
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of what's happening is not in our control, and all it's going to do
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is activate your sympathetic system. It's going to put you in either fight flight
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or freeze reaction. And so the control you have is about creating those boundaries
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and limiting how your exposure because I think there's a lot of vicarious traumatization literally
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just around watching the news or the divisiveness that keeps showing up in social media
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right now. So I think that that's critically important. I think there is
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a bit of a universality, although you're absolutely right to suggest that people react
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differently, and I think the more you come at this with a trauma history,
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the more you're going to be triggered, and the more impactful that triggering
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is going to be. But I think there's a kind of universality to a
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lot of the key issues that COVID and other issues that have happened in the
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world have kind of raised and exacerbated for us as human beings. So that's
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you know, we touched on losses. So there's the loss of freedom and
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the loss of finances, and the and the loss of employment for a lot
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of people, and the loss of life, you know, and the fear
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of getting sick, the loss of freedom. I'm working with so many clients
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now, guy, who have experienced to death and they couldn't have a funeral,
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you know, for Jewish clients, they couldn't sit shiva, which is
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a seven day process which is essential, you know, to help us to
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begin to navigate our grief and our suffering. So many younger people who couldn't
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go to a graduation, you know, young couples who couldn't get married in
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the way they wanted to get married. So a lot of loss around activities
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and social engagements and connection. And that's been huge. And if you're a
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trauma survivor, you've already endured tremendous loss in your life, you know,
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loss of safety and privacy and boundaries and protections. So the whole concept of
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loss, I think can be very, very triggering. And then there's this
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huge dynamic of uncertainty, and all of us as human beings are impacted by
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uncertainty. We don't like to not know what's going on, you know,
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and if there's a blank, we're going to fill it in. We're going
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to make stuff up if we have to, because that feels less anxiety producing
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than limbo and not knowing. And now the uncertainty has shifted to including things
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like when am I going to get vaccinated? And how do I even go
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about getting vaccinated. That's something that my clients have been in the last three
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or four weeks. They're constantly wanting to process in a therapy session, and
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just of course the relentlessness of everything that's happening. I think one of the
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biggest triggers though, is the need to do physical distancing. And I like
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to use the term physical distancing as opposed to social distancing, because we can't
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afford to do social distancing. We have to keep finding ways to connect.
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One of the interesting things to notice or to know is that when we're threatened,
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when we're stressed, when we're overwhelmed or frightened, it is literally in
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our DNA and in our biology to reach out and do social engagement, and
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so think about that. We're wired to want to do social connection in response
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to anxiety, fear, or overwhelmed. And yet what we've been forced to
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do for almost for a year now is social disconnection. Right to maintain that
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six feet, to wear that mask, to not go to all the places
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that you normally go to, you know, that give you comfort, that
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help you to feel, that give you a sense of identity or a sense
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of belonging, you know, the communal gatherings that we all need in our
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lives and in order to feel connected. So, although it's absolutely necessary,
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and I do want to emphasize this, I'm not in any way saying don't
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do physical distancing. It's obviously necessary for our physical and medical safety, but
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it's really not good for our emotional and psychological well being. And a lot
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of people are experiencing PTSD around that degree of isolation and feeling that degree of
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disconnection in general. Guide there's going to be a ton of PTSD fallout from
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all of this, the mental health aspect of everything that we've had to go
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through and endure, you know, in an attempt to stay safe. And
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so you know, I tell my colleagues like get ready, because we're going
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to We already are seeing dramatics increase in substance use and relapsing, dramatic dramatic
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increase in domestic violence, in child abuse and sexual abuse, in depression and
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anxiety, and that's real, right, right, We're going to have to
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deal with that as mental health providers and people navigate. And it just feels
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like there's this constant backdrop to all of our all of ourselves and all of
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our lives, of all these things that you talked about, and it's it's
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um yeah. I mean for someone like myself who tends to you know,
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the needle tends to go toward more towards anxiety. It's it's a day to
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day recentering and recalibrating, you know, to keep it together, right,
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You're right. What I say to my clients is if you get too focused
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on what you cannot control in all of this, your anxiety is going to
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dramatically escalate. I think the challenge and the opportunity and you know, you
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know, I take a very strength spaced approach to everything, so I try
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to frame it as an opportunity. I think the opportunity right now is to
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really get clearer about what is in our control and to make sure that we
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are fully and proactively using our agency around the things that are in our control,
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for example, For example, so practicing simple little strategies that help to
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navigate and reduce anxiety too, with a lot of intentionality, whether you want
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to bring on board mindfulness or meditation, becoming more aware of doing guided imagery
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or breathwork, downloading free apps onto your phone you know that walk you through
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very simple guided imagery and meditation for anxiety management. I think that's huge if
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you can't go to the gym, and a lot of us can't because it
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does it just doesn't feel safe to do that. I've discovered all these fabulous
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new exercise, free exercise videos on YouTube, so I become the queen of
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finding new exercise videos. That's so funny because I have to right yeah,
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so, and then I passed them onto my clients. I like, you
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know, I just did this fabulous ten thousand step walking thing. You know
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that that like really worked up a sweat and I needed this much space in
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my living room, you know, or or you know again, meditation,
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yoga. I've a lot of clients who discovered yoga for the first time,
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you know, doing it online, we can make We have control about our
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nutrition and you know, what we choose to eat and what we're not eating.
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We have control about our sleep and are we getting enough sleep? You
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know, we have control about making those social connections in safe ways. You
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know, I am doing more cocktail zoom hours with friends, you know,
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than I've ever done. So it's really just kind of taking that half a
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step back and focusing on what is in your control and then really you know,
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making it an intention to engage in that, you know, reading things
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that are fun. I'll tell you something else that I have become addicted to,
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and that's jigsaw puzzles, a thousand piece jigsaw puzzles. Now, when
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I first started doing it, it was kind of a way just to fill
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up some of my free time because I had you know, I wasn't traveling,
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I wasn't giving trainings on the road. I had a lot of this.
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Suddenly I wasn't in airports anymore, so I had a lot of downtime.
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And then I did a little bit of research and I was delighted to
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discover that doing things like jigsaw puzzles, Sudoku, crossword puzzles. This has
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an actual impact on our brain and our brain chemistry. You're activating the left
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and right hemisphere. Jigsaw puzzles and these other activities are meditative, so again,
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they calm down anxiety. They're distracting in a good way, so that
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if you're the type of person who's been perseverating about COVID, you know,
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focusing on to doku or crossword puzzle or jigsaw puzzle just gives your mind another
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place to go. Actually releases in dopamine, which makes us, gives us
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pleasure and makes us feel good and positive. If you're if you're isolating with
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someone else and you work on a jigsaw puzzle together, you know, that's
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something that feels connecting and collaborative. I have clients who are doing jigsaw puzzles,
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the same jigsaw puzzle at the same time with somebody on zoom, So
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even though they're not in the same space, you know they're they're kind of
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working on it together, and they're you know, they're lowering their screen to
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show the other person you know, where they're at and what they've done,
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you know. So that's all the stuff that actually is still in our control,
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and that's what we've got to grab onto and take advantage of. Right
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now, I can see where that might even feel more elusive, because there's
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so much seemingly out of our control, so easy to get overwhelmed with that
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that almost like you know, thinking about and collecting, gathering what we can
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take hold of almost might seem elusive, but so so crucial. Um,
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let's you know, you mentioned a fallout and one of the things that I
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mean, it's been been but a lot of people have been talking about,
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although I don't think it's been talked a lot about in in uh generally speaking,
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is how all of this is, you know, falling out down on
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the mental health clinicians and how they're going to deal with it, the fallout
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with them? Yeah, what are you experiencing and we're seeing Yeah, I
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mean there's a lot of fall out, I will tell you, you know.
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In addition to doing you know, therapy hours, I also provide consultation
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to clinicians, whether they're beginner clinicians or very season clinicians. In the last
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four or five months, I have been and I'm I'm always so thrilled to
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do it, but I'm noticing this dramatic increase in the number of colleagues who
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are wanting to do consultation because they just need a safe place to process their
21:26
own anxiety, you know, just to deal with the frustration if they're feeling
21:30
about having to continue to do online therapy as opposed to face to face therapy,
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a safe place just to process their their own fear and uncertainty about COVID
21:41
and and you know, other things that are happening in the world. And
21:45
so I do think if you are a clinician, the two things to get
21:48
really focused on is give yourself the gift of consultation supervision right now, because
21:53
you deserve it, it will benefit you. It is a safe place where
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you can unload and process your own fears because obviously we can't unload them in
22:03
a therapy session with a client. We need a safe place to be able
22:07
to do that, and we need a safe place just to be able to
22:10
process the anxiety that our clients are bringing to these online sessions, you know.
22:15
So consultation and supervision, I think now more than ever, is a
22:18
real gift. And I also think we have to stay mindful of our own
22:22
acts of self care and self compassion. So no matter what modality you use,
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and I use many many as a clinician, I become more and more
22:32
convinced that what makes everything work is when you bring self compassion to it.
22:37
And the irony guy is that clinicians are often not that great. They're extraordinarily
22:44
compassionate towards other people, right, I mean, that's why they're in the
22:47
field that they're in. But they're not always great with self compassion and they're
22:52
not always great with self care. And so you know, again really bringing
22:56
that into your conscious awareness to just put your hand on your heart and say,
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you know what, it's really hard right now. It's hard to be
23:04
a mental health provider. It's hard to be a medical provider. It's hard
23:08
to be a teacher. It's hard to be a parent with three young children
23:12
who are trying to learn at home. So just bringing a little bit of
23:18
compassion to that reality, as simplistic as that seems, again, the anxiety
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comes down. Just as you said that, I could feel it, seriously,
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Yeah, I could feel that. Yeah. So the self talk is
23:33
hugely important. You know, if we're shaming ourselves about the fact that we're
23:37
struggling, we're going to feel worse. If we can hold compassion and kindness
23:42
and concern and care for the fact that this has been one hell of a
23:48
year and it's hard and we're doing the best that we can. And if
23:52
we can be kind to ourselves about that reality again, our bodies soften,
23:57
our physiology comes down, and we create this space to begin to think about
24:03
acts of self care. So once I can acknowledge it's hard to be a
24:08
mental health provider right now, the next question that it evokes is, so
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what do I need? What do I need to do for me so that
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I can navigate this? And what I've discovered is not to schedule clients back
24:23
to back in online therapy, because because I'm immobile, I'm staring at my
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camera. You know, I've got blue light coming at me. I can't
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do that for six hours in a row, you know. In my office.
24:37
Yes, I'm good at seeing you know, four or five clients or
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not that I'm necessarily advocating that, but after thirty seven years, it comes
24:45
easily to me. But this doing this, you know, four or five
24:48
hours in a row. Enough. My body doesn't want me to do that.
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So once I realized that, I gave myself permission to completely change the
24:57
way I schedule on therapy sessions. It's very different than what I do in
25:03
my office. I'm making sure in between every session, I'm standing up and
25:06
moving. I have that jigsaw puzzle going at all times. You know,
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I'm in my thirty Seriously, my husband I and he's a physician, and
25:14
he's just distressed as I am. And we're working on our thirty fifth puzzle
25:18
and it's been a godsend. You know. He comes home at the end
25:22
of the day, you know, after doing you know, twenty he does
25:26
twenty five tell telehealth sessions in a row, you know, and then he
25:29
sits down with that puzzle and it's like everything sort of dissolves, you know,
25:33
and again we can be in a different part of our brain, making
25:37
sure that I'm eating properly, you know, in little small ways throughout the
25:41
day. Again, different from the way that I would work in my office,
25:44
you know, when I'm kind of in one place all day. Walking
25:48
my dog in between sessions has been another godsend. And if you don't have
25:52
an animal, a pat just walk, you know, just walk around your
25:56
house, walk outside, walk up and down the steps, let your body
26:00
move, because there is this I think this greater degree of being sedentary and
26:04
being more immobilized because we are all doing this all day. We're staring at
26:10
our screens, you know, and that immobility is not good for our bodies.
26:15
Is this situation of COVID Is it making it more challenging for clinicians therapists
26:26
to wonder about to what degree they should disclose their own feelings of anxiousness,
26:33
right because it's something uniquely that we're all experiencing. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
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I think you still have I think there's a way to do it.
26:41
Guy. I think that, yes, we want to normalize the humanity of
26:45
this and that we are all in this together. And when a client says,
26:49
you know, I feel scared or I feel anxious, or I feel
26:53
exhausted, you know, certainly saying I get it, I totally get it.
26:59
With out going into any detail about what that means, you know,
27:03
I think that that's a really appropriate way to do a little bit of self
27:07
disclosure, you know, in the name of joining and speaking to the universality
27:11
of it all. But I'm still going to tell you that the clinicians job
27:15
is to be the arbiter of hope and optimism and you know, my fundamental
27:22
rule about therapy in general is somebody has to be grounded and present at all
27:26
times, and it better be the therapist because it's often not the client.
27:32
And so when my client, you know, I'm thinking about I did a
27:34
couple of sessions yet last night, and I had, in both cases clients
27:38
who are very disregulated. One was crying, one was really anxious and angry,
27:45
and I had to stay really calm and really present so that their mirror
27:51
neurons could bounce off of that and they could begin to calm down and get
27:56
some relief if I met them, you know, so they're up here.
27:59
If if you meet the client where they are, then who's doing the great
28:03
you know, when we're the stabilizing factor, you know. So yes,
28:08
we definitely can normalize for our clients that we're frustrated, we're anxious, we're
28:15
angry, we're bored. We haven't we haven't mentioned that emotion, but I
28:18
think that's a really big emotion that people are grappling with their bored The microcosm
28:22
of their world has dramatically decreased. You know, Um, we're doing much
28:29
less than we normally do, and so there's boredom around that and just to
28:34
normalize. Yeah, there are times you're going to feel really really bored and
28:38
anxious and angry. And I get it. We're all in the same boat,
28:45
I think, you know, saying things like that is valuable because I'm
28:48
not any different from my clients. The extent to which I'm going to share
28:52
why I'm anxious. I'm not going to go there, you know, because,
28:56
first of all, to their session. It's their time, and again
29:00
I want them to really trust that they can rely on me. And actually
29:06
I find it quite gratifying when a client says, I feel so good when
29:11
I interact with you because I feel calmer or I feel more optimistic. You
29:17
know. I try to bring humor into the sessions, you know, even
29:22
when it's difficult. I was working with a woman yesterday who's still grieving the
29:26
death of her husband, and believe it or not, I would say four
29:29
different times we were both laughing in the session, and she thanked me for
29:33
that. She said, you know, I've been so consumed with grief and
29:37
sadness, it actually feels good to laugh. And then she was cused.
29:41
She goes, is it okay that I'm laughing? You know, so just
29:45
giving that permission, you know, Yes, that's as healing as crying,
29:48
you know. So I think we do have to find ways to take care
29:52
of ourselves when we're not in session with our clients so that we really can
29:56
be hopeful and optimistic and fully present when we're with them. Clients need that
30:03
more than ever. So the institute, now, are you folks offering courses
30:11
online or workshops? Yeah? So everything is online and you know, I'm
30:17
I didn't think it was possible, and it is, and I'm delighted that
30:19
it is. And so I still have a fabulous faculty. I do a
30:23
lot of teaching. My faculty does teaching. I'm still able to do my
30:26
certificate program and trauma treatment online. So just going to the Farrens Institute,
30:32
you know, we'll give you the whole, the whole calendar, Okay,
30:34
and consultation also, yes, So if you go to the Farrens Institute,
30:41
it's the easiest way to email me, and I'm more than happy to provide
30:45
that. I really feel like that's something that I can provide. You know,
30:49
I've disclosed this before. I'm not a trauma survivor, so I tend
30:53
to be by nature a very optimistic, positive, hopeful person, and so
31:00
I can I like being able to provide that hope and that optimism. Not
31:04
that I'm a Pollyanna about anything, and not that we ever minimize or downplay
31:10
suffering, you know, but I think that we can juxtapose suffering with hope
31:14
and certainly suffering with compassion. And so I'm more than happy to, you
31:18
know, to be able to provide that to clinicians who feel stressed and overwhelmed,
31:23
and frankly just want a little bit of extra guidance about doing this work
31:27
online because it is different, you know, doing trauma work in particular online.
31:33
It's not the same thing as doing it face to face. Lisa,
31:37
what is it about you? Do you think that enables you or allows you
31:44
to maintain this hopefulness, the you know, the positivity. And I'm not
31:49
saying you are Pollyanna, But what is what is it about you? What
31:53
do you think? It's a great question. Actually, what immediately comes to
31:57
my mind is that I was blessed with extraordinary parents. I lucked out.
32:02
I just was blessed with extraordinary, loving, kind parents who made me feel
32:09
special, you know, not in a narcissistic way, but just made me
32:14
feel worthy and valuable and precious every day, and and and they were optimistic,
32:22
positive people. Despite the fact that both my parents came from their own
32:28
they found they were remarkably optimistic human beings and thank God brought that into their
32:34
parenting. The other thing I'll tell you, and this is not to proselytize,
32:37
but you know, I'm an Orthodox Jew, I'm a person of faith,
32:40
and when stuff like this happens, I just turn it over. I
32:45
just turn it over. I'm so convinced that there is a force at play
32:49
that has so much more power than I do, and I just turn it
32:52
over, you know. And that helps me to not have to carry the
32:58
heaviness and weight of worry. And I think that if you don't, if
33:02
you if you go through life and you're not perpetually worried and you do believe
33:07
I believe in the goodness of humanity. I believe in the goodness of a
33:12
higher power of God. You know, if you hold that idea um and
33:16
you just you trust that that ultimately things are actually going to be okay,
33:22
awesome. Well, Lisa, like I said, I love having you on
33:25
here. Man. Anytime you want to come on, send me, send
33:30
me an email. We'll have everything we talked about today linked up at the
33:35
h Traumatis podcast dot com the show notes page. And want to want people
33:39
to reach out to you and your institute UM and allow me please to publicly
33:45
thank you because you have done extraordinary work. I get emails from people guy
33:52
like you know from around the world who've listened to your podcasts and have caught
33:57
the ones that you and I have done. So I just want you to
34:00
know that you are making a profound difference in the world, and I thank
34:05
you for your generous thank you. It means a lot. I appreciate you
34:08
saying that all right, we'll take care, we'll be in touch, all
34:13
right. Bye bye