Latest / The BioHub - by Avetix / Episode 50 – Marc de Garidel & Sylvie Grégoire – CEO & Chair of Abivax

Transcript

Episode 50 – Marc de Garidel & Sylvie Grégoire – CEO & Chair of Abivax · The BioHub - by Avetix

• 0:04
  Welcome back to another episode of the Bio Hub.
• 0:07
  In this special follow up episode, I'm rejoined by Marty
• 0:11
  Garridel, CEO of ABI Vax, after a hugely popular conversation
• 0:17
  from last year and then that was recorded just after their
• 0:21
  record-breaking NASDAQ IPO. That episode actually gave us a
• 0:25
  look into Mark's incredible career, the company's bold
• 0:28
  vision and how they were gearing up to become a major player in
• 0:31
  an inflammatory diseases. This time he's joined by Sylvie
• 0:35
  Gregoire, Chair of the ABI Vax board, a hugely respected
• 0:39
  industry leader with decades of global biotech and farmer
• 0:42
  experience. Together, we'll dive into what's
• 0:44
  changed in the past year, how they've been navigating today's
• 0:48
  biotech climate, and what's next for ABI Vax as they continue to
• 0:52
  push forward in a crazy environment.
• 0:56
  So we'll go through, we'll go into it.
• 0:58
  So pleasure to have you both. Thank you for the irritation,
• 1:02
  Max. Yeah, same here.
• 1:04
  Pleasure to see you. Amazing.
• 1:06
  Thanks guys. We'll start with with you, Mark.
• 1:10
  When we last spoke, Abbeyvacs had just completed that that
• 1:14
  IPO. What's changed since then in
• 1:17
  terms of company priorities, challenges and and the vision as
• 1:21
  well? Actually not much has changed.
• 1:25
  You know, the promise that we set at the IPO, we are, you
• 1:29
  know, we're trying to fulfill it to to our best.
• 1:33
  We have advanced very well. Now our you know, illustrative
• 1:37
  colitis trial, which is about to read out, we'll announce this
• 1:41
  quarter the last patient in and you know, next quarter will be
• 1:46
  you know what we call the induction results.
• 1:48
  So that will be obviously a big event for for for the company
• 1:51
  and for all of us. Beyond the ulcerative colitis
• 1:55
  program, you probably remember the second goal was around
• 1:58
  executing A Crohn's program. Crohn's disease is also a
• 2:02
  difficult 1. You know, that affects actually
• 2:04
  all the digestive system and current drugs have their own
• 2:08
  challenges. So we are, you know, now
• 2:10
  engaging the Phase 2B program which we read out by the end of
• 2:13
  next year. Thirdly, we've made actually our
• 2:18
  first combo combination publication that echoes the
• 2:21
  largest actually gastroenterology Congress a few
• 2:24
  weeks ago in Berlin where we reported in critical model
• 2:29
  Obfasimod, our drug with a trazimod, actually a drug that
• 2:32
  was recently launched by Pfizer. And then finally, we are still
• 2:37
  also continuing to work on the next generation of Obfasimod,
• 2:41
  another year 124 an answer and we hope to report more data, you
• 2:45
  know, later this year. Amazing, amazing.
• 2:49
  And then Sylvie, you know, you've stepped into that chair
• 2:52
  position. What What drew you to Abbeyvax,
• 2:55
  and what have you observed about the company and its mission from
• 2:59
  a board level? Yeah.
• 3:01
  So I joined last July and I was, it's like any other job, Max.
• 3:07
  You sort of look at first that, you know, you do your due
• 3:11
  diligence in terms of what the company has in terms of product,
• 3:15
  what's the potential for it. And I have to say, you know, I
• 3:19
  had to look carefully because it was something that I didn't know
• 3:23
  much about the IBD world before I entered.
• 3:27
  But and it's pretty crowded both in in drugs and in that are
• 3:30
  commercialized and in development.
• 3:32
  So I had to 1st I think understand quite well what the
• 3:36
  distinct features were of OB fasi mode in order to address
• 3:41
  address an unmet medical need. And that was obvious that that
• 3:45
  was the case. So the publication of the data
• 3:48
  that had occurred for phase two was very revealing.
• 3:52
  I was able to look and, you know, into the detailed
• 3:56
  information from a scientific, the mode of action perspective,
• 4:00
  the readiness of the company in terms of the, you know,
• 4:04
  obligatory types of work that you have to do for manufacturing
• 4:07
  and for toxicology. And it became quite evident
• 4:12
  that, you know, the medical community also was very felt
• 4:18
  that this product was very much addressing this unmet medical
• 4:21
  need based on the novelty of the mechanism of action, the fact
• 4:25
  that it's oral. And that's the potential to sort
• 4:28
  of be in a way safer if you will, or potentially have less
• 4:32
  side effects than other drugs. So to be honest, from a, from a,
• 4:37
  from a product perspective and then from what can be done with
• 4:40
  this product, as Mark mentioned, in terms of combination new
• 4:45
  indications like Crohn's disease or in the backup compounds that
• 4:50
  exist made it that this is a company really that has a group
• 4:54
  of assets in a very an area that has really a lot of need.
• 5:01
  And so once that's done, I mean, everybody does.
• 5:04
  The second thing is the team, you know what, what about this
• 5:07
  team? And I had work with Mark before
• 5:11
  either on another board or, you know, in another company
• 5:14
  setting. So I knew the way he worked and
• 5:17
  thought so already that part of the team, I knew I could and I
• 5:22
  knew we worked well together on that.
• 5:24
  And then meeting the rest of the management team, you know, it
• 5:27
  takes a lot of experience and expertise to be able to overcome
• 5:31
  all the multiple challenges that are associated with both drug
• 5:34
  development and this late stage registration and plans for
• 5:38
  commercialization. So you have to have a very
• 5:41
  experienced team and then a small company that's sometimes,
• 5:44
  you know, difficult to, but this company had everything it needed
• 5:47
  in order to be able to succeed. And then you cannot succeed
• 5:51
  without, of course, being able to have investors that you know,
• 5:56
  support you, if you will. And, and in this environment
• 6:00
  that's difficult, but if you have an asset and a team that
• 6:04
  will bring the product to the successful next milestone, which
• 6:08
  we will have now like Mark said in the next few months, then you
• 6:12
  know that you know, money will come money to develop the drug.
• 6:16
  But also, you know, from a not enough to register a drug these
• 6:20
  days. You have to have it reimbursed
• 6:22
  and you know, payers have to be able to see the value as well as
• 6:26
  the medical community. And so I think everything is in
• 6:29
  place. You know, when I saw what's
• 6:32
  happening and I've seen over the year that's, you know, I've been
• 6:34
  on the board now that the execution is well on its way to
• 6:40
  to that success that is expected or work that everyone is working
• 6:45
  towards with incredible diligence.
• 6:48
  Yeah, it's super exciting. It's super exciting.
• 6:51
  I remember the conversation with Mark last year and it was the
• 6:55
  first time we'd really been connected.
• 6:57
  But I'm being pretty excited for him.
• 6:59
  And obviously, like you say, he's no stranger to these kind
• 7:03
  of successes as well. Let's talk about the market.
• 7:12
  How do you both view that the current biotech landscape
• 7:14
  compared to a year ago? Right.
• 7:16
  Because we probably thought there couldn't be more
• 7:19
  turbulence, but it's, it's pretty crazy how things have
• 7:22
  changed. You want to start.
• 7:27
  Well, you know, it's obviously a very, you know, the biotech
• 7:31
  index is very revealing. It's been a tough environment
• 7:34
  for the biotech industry for several years now in a way, even
• 7:38
  since post COVID. So we're everyone's very
• 7:43
  attentive to it. But you know, and it's it is
• 7:48
  what it is in terms of the companies to keep to raise money
• 7:52
  or to combine companies in this environment in order to get
• 7:57
  money in. So all kinds of methods are
• 8:00
  being used to be able to go forward.
• 8:03
  But you will notice that companies that have assets that
• 8:07
  are valuable and for which you can actually see this value
• 8:10
  generally achieve what they need.
• 8:14
  And there's not very many of those and there's certainly not
• 8:16
  very many late stage companies. And I guess that was could be
• 8:21
  observed very clearly because it was a tough environment when
• 8:24
  Avivax could IPO, right? I mean it was one of the few
• 8:28
  companies. So I think people if, if, if the
• 8:30
  asset will delivers, then the funding will come.
• 8:35
  And so that was has always been true.
• 8:38
  And if the, if the products of everybody can see what it, what
• 8:43
  the value truly will be in the community, then eventually it
• 8:48
  will be reflected in the value in the stock value sort of of
• 8:51
  the company. And because people will, will,
• 8:53
  will invest. And that value is also, I can
• 8:57
  assure you, you know, from an ongoing basis, you know, it's
• 9:00
  seen not just by investors we talked to on an ongoing basis,
• 9:04
  but also, you know, pharma companies that are understand
• 9:08
  the value of the product in terms of the mechanism of
• 9:12
  action. You know, there's been a lot of
• 9:14
  presentations at conferences and the interest is very high from
• 9:19
  of course, the medical community, but as well the
• 9:23
  investor community and the pharma community.
• 9:27
  Do do you think we're still in that period of normalizing from
• 9:31
  like the amount of IP OS that we're we're in 2020-2021?
• 9:38
  It's not normal yet. You know, it's definitely not
• 9:43
  normal yet. And you've seen this year there
• 9:45
  hasn't been a lot of IP OS and banks in general, you know, are
• 9:50
  not, you know, sending the companies into IP OS either
• 9:55
  because the environment is so difficult.
• 9:57
  There are other means, of course, of raising money.
• 10:00
  There's debt, you know, there's so there's all kinds of means
• 10:03
  that are being utilized, but there's even less pipe funding
• 10:07
  than there was last year. So if we could just get out of
• 10:11
  the uncertainty that's in the market that's created by, you
• 10:15
  know, the environment in general, the economic and
• 10:18
  geopolitical environment in general, I think it will all
• 10:22
  come back because there's obviously money is not the
• 10:24
  problem. It's a reluctance to invest in
• 10:28
  the face of in the face of these what's considered a very risky
• 10:32
  period. Maybe Mark would like to add
• 10:35
  something to that. I mean, no, fundamentally I
• 10:38
  think you addressed very well all the key points.
• 10:40
  You know, I had yesterday I received a like coincidence, you
• 10:43
  know a banker review of Q1 for biotech and you know, I, I noted
• 10:48
  a few numbers, they are not, they are indeed not too, too,
• 10:51
  too good for the industry. So for IPOs in the first quarter
• 10:54
  down 20%, follow ONS down 21%, pipes down 80%, 2727% of biotech
• 11:02
  have negative enterprise value today.
• 11:05
  So that means basically of the public companies.
• 11:08
  So it's a, it's a, you know, more than 100 biotech companies
• 11:11
  in the US that basically investors are saying this
• 11:14
  company is not worth, you know, anything anymore.
• 11:18
  So it just shows and actually 29%.
• 11:20
  So basically, if you add 27 to 2956% of the biotech in the US
• 11:26
  listed companies, I have an enterprise value below 100
• 11:29
  million. You know, I, I don't think in
• 11:31
  the recent histories that has happened.
• 11:34
  You know, this is one of the most dreary moment I think in,
• 11:37
  in, in the industry. Yeah.
• 11:39
  So I mean, as you know, the index is down.
• 11:42
  So. But I think as Silly said, at
• 11:45
  least you know, more specifically to, you know, to
• 11:49
  Avivax, I think we are well positioned because we are more
• 11:52
  advanced and we are, you know, going to have a very significant
• 11:55
  readout. Actually some of the analysts
• 11:57
  think it's one of the biggest readouts of, you know, phase
• 11:59
  three program for the industry this year.
• 12:01
  So I think we are in a bit very unique situation compared to
• 12:06
  early clinical companies that may not have, you know, a lot of
• 12:10
  news to bring. And it is very hard financing
• 12:14
  environment. You know, it is going to be
• 12:16
  tough. And I think, you know, some
• 12:18
  companies may have to, you know, to, to close or to merge or
• 12:21
  artist to, to, to, you know, give priorities to a few
• 12:25
  programs and to extend the cash runway in this in this period.
• 12:29
  But you know, it is biotech. So you know, it goes with ups
• 12:33
  and downs and you know, resilience is part of the game.
• 12:35
  But as also indicated, this is where the importance of of
• 12:39
  having good investors. So, you know, an advice for the
• 12:43
  CEOs who listen to this podcast is, you know, when you do the
• 12:49
  fundraising, it's not only getting the money, but it's also
• 12:52
  getting the right money. So from, you know, from the
• 12:55
  right investors who are going to stick with you are going to, to
• 12:57
  be with you with good times, but also bad times like like now,
• 13:02
  because ultimately you know, they, they, they will, you know,
• 13:06
  back you up even if you know the external financial markets are
• 13:09
  not, you know, very friendly. Yeah, but science and you know,
• 13:16
  this is a a risky sector, obviously the biotech investment
• 13:21
  sector, but everybody is a expert in a way.
• 13:25
  It is very specialized and understands the value of the
• 13:28
  data. And so it's not when data comes
• 13:33
  and it's positive, you know it will it, it is valued, you know,
• 13:39
  so it then the value is recognized because, you know,
• 13:42
  it's understood. So these aren't the, the, the
• 13:45
  good thing is that these, these smart investors are also good
• 13:50
  scientists and they understand how they know how to read data
• 13:55
  as it comes out. And so that that's in a way
• 13:58
  that's a privilege that we're also not in some generalist
• 14:01
  market that just follows sentiment.
• 14:05
  Yeah, I agree. I think do you look at certain
• 14:09
  investors like you just spoke about like getting the right
• 14:12
  investors? Do certain investors change
• 14:14
  their strategy, depend on the market and then others you know,
• 14:19
  they're they're consistent with what they think is the right
• 14:21
  thing. I can give you an example for
• 14:24
  us, there's been some, you know some rotation within portfolio
• 14:30
  managers, you know, within those funds, you know for for Avidax,
• 14:36
  just statistics, we have 15 funds that basically own roughly
• 14:43
  80% of the of the equity of the company.
• 14:48
  Out of this 15 funds last year we had 7 rotation of portfolio
• 14:55
  manager in those funds, 7. So we nearly 50% turnover.
• 14:59
  So the contact we had in, in those funds in portfolio
• 15:03
  management, you know rotated and sometime change a job within the
• 15:06
  firm sometime left. So what happens is you know,
• 15:09
  there is also some even within these these investor funds,
• 15:15
  there are also some churn that that can also create a bit of
• 15:19
  volatility. Because when the new person lies
• 15:23
  your story and goes to the to the next thing the the new guy
• 15:27
  that the new person that that comes may not like the story and
• 15:31
  may drop actually your support. On the flip side, the person
• 15:36
  that liked you, you know, is going to another fund may invest
• 15:38
  in it. But there there is definitely
• 15:41
  you know, we have seen an increase in the rotation in in
• 15:44
  portfolio manager last year probably again because of the
• 15:46
  the performance of some of these funds have been put under
• 15:49
  pressure you know, given the overall biotech environment.
• 15:53
  Yeah, it's interesting. And then I want to look, we're
• 15:58
  going to give a chance to look ahead at what's next for ABI Vax
• 16:01
  what, what milestones goals developed then.
• 16:05
  So are we most excited about in like the next 12-18 months?
• 16:09
  I don't know who's best to take this one maybe.
• 16:12
  Mark can start with that one. Well, I think they are very,
• 16:15
  very significant because indeed the first one is as you know, we
• 16:20
  started the conversation is this induction.
• 16:22
  So eight week trial on on for ulcerative colitis where we
• 16:30
  expect the result in Q3 assuming it is good, it's going to be
• 16:35
  followed by a continuation of this trial where this time we
• 16:38
  follow those patients not only 8 weeks, but 44 weeks.
• 16:41
  So basically it's a 52 week of treatment.
• 16:43
  And now we know in Q2 of 2026 we will have the results of those
• 16:49
  of those of those of those of these phase three trials.
• 16:53
  So that would be the foundation that I will see again another
• 16:56
  big milestone event. And then on the base of
• 16:59
  induction plus the maintenance study as we call it, we will go
• 17:04
  and file to the FDA by before the end of the year and probably
• 17:09
  very early thereafter in Europe, Japan and China because our
• 17:14
  study is a global study. We have, you know, 36 countries
• 17:18
  that have been involved in this, in this phase three program and
• 17:22
  the 600 centres around the the world.
• 17:24
  So it's been a massive undertaking, but you know, we're
• 17:27
  going to to see the fruition of that.
• 17:29
  And then the last, I think a big, you know, element or so far
• 17:34
  value inflection is the clone the phase two program, which
• 17:38
  should read out by the end of 2026.
• 17:41
  So I think we are going to be again one of the few biotech
• 17:44
  companies is not only you know, starting essentially next
• 17:47
  quarter to the end of 26 with a lot of news that could you know
• 17:54
  attract investors and and potentially create a lot of
• 17:57
  value. But fundamentally the more
• 17:58
  important thing is to launch the drug for the patients who are in
• 18:03
  need. And you know, in the US right of
• 18:06
  colitis field, we just published actually claims data, a study
• 18:12
  from actually USUS you know, sources at the largest Congress,
• 18:19
  Congress ontology Congress just a few weeks ago.
• 18:21
  And in iterative colitis, only 5% of the patients are still on
• 18:28
  advanced therapy treatment after three years.
• 18:30
  So that tells you there is a really a need for for new
• 18:33
  therapy. And this is where I think a
• 18:35
  befazimal, you know, proposal could be is to have a real
• 18:40
  profound effect not only in the short term, but in the long term
• 18:45
  to provide remission to these patients like that they can stay
• 18:48
  on drug not one year, not two years, but over over a long time
• 18:52
  basis. And again at that Congress we
• 18:54
  also published four and six year data on our phase two, which
• 18:57
  shows that nearly the patients that that that continue
• 19:01
  treatment are nearly in remission. 90% of the patients
• 19:05
  are in remission after four or six years of treatment, which is
• 19:09
  again could be wonderful news if you are afflicted by your
• 19:12
  psoriatic colitis. It's amazing, yeah.
• 19:16
  I think what Mark says is very important that this news flow of
• 19:20
  the output of the outcome, if you will, of both in ulcerative
• 19:25
  colitis and IBD that are coming, you know, in terms of readouts
• 19:29
  over the next 18 months are crucial for the company.
• 19:33
  Obviously, in terms of determining, you know, how, how
• 19:37
  much value can be attributed to the company itself, but also to
• 19:43
  what can be done medically with, with this product to the
• 19:46
  patients. And I think all the, all the
• 19:48
  activities are in place and, and, and, and we'll deliver on,
• 19:53
  on, on those timelines that Mark has said.
• 19:57
  It's important, of course, to the, to the, to the street, to
• 20:00
  the environment, to the value, but it's also important to the
• 20:03
  company. You have to remember most people
• 20:04
  who join. A biotech or a pharmaceutical
• 20:07
  company joined to bring products that make a difference in the
• 20:11
  life of patients. And so this product based on the
• 20:16
  fact that it is different from the others that are already in
• 20:20
  the marketplace, has potential to transform, you know, how a
• 20:24
  patient with IBD, whether it's UC or, or Crohn's disease, can,
• 20:30
  it's life can their life can be affected.
• 20:33
  So that's not insignificant for all the people who work at
• 20:37
  Avivax. And it's a great motivator for
• 20:41
  working towards these milestones.
• 20:45
  You know, from a values perspective inside the company,
• 20:49
  it's it's a great motor and cannot be underestimated.
• 20:54
  I love that. I think that's a great way of
• 20:55
  thinking. I think it actually leads really
• 20:57
  well into my my next question, which is it's kind of culture
• 21:01
  focused, which is obviously huge in, in, in a biotech success.
• 21:06
  How have you both worked together to foster the, the, the
• 21:09
  kind of relationship and company culture that drives performance?
• 21:15
  Maybe you start Sylvie. I'm a more recent add to the
• 21:21
  contribution to the culture, but knowing Mack and from what I
• 21:26
  saw, you know, when I arrived, there is part of one of the
• 21:30
  reasons obviously that one wants to join a company.
• 21:34
  So there's two aspects like there's the company culture and
• 21:37
  then there's the board culture, if you will, that has to align.
• 21:42
  And Mark, I know from the way he works and maybe I'm, I'm, I'm a
• 21:47
  bit the same. We're very direct people who
• 21:51
  like to address and, you know, see the problem evaluated.
• 21:55
  And unfortunately for both of us, we've been in this industry
• 21:58
  quite long. So we've seen quite a few
• 22:01
  problems along the way. Assess the problem and the
• 22:04
  hurdle and then act on it. Decide what to do and act on it
• 22:09
  in a rather, you know, it's important to do in an efficient
• 22:12
  way. And so the culture is that is
• 22:18
  that OK? We see a problem, we evaluate it
• 22:20
  and we act on it in a relative. You know, drug development is
• 22:24
  complicated enough as it is that if you add, you know,
• 22:29
  complexities, you know, relative to politics or taking your, you
• 22:34
  know, not being focused on what you're, you know, not making the
• 22:38
  company focus on what's really important.
• 22:41
  That's a big problem in a small company that doesn't have, you
• 22:44
  know, a lot of time and a lot of resources to wait and, and
• 22:48
  waste, I would say. So that's the culture that I
• 22:52
  see. And it's the same with the
• 22:54
  board. You know, the board members that
• 22:56
  are in this company all contribute to the very
• 23:01
  understand very well the the critical aspects, the milestone,
• 23:06
  you know, they've all worked in the pharma companies and so they
• 23:09
  know, you know what the job is as well.
• 23:12
  And they come with this open and, and management.
• 23:15
  And Mark is very open to, you know, leveraging sort of the
• 23:21
  experience that comes from the board.
• 23:23
  So I think just being straightforward and action
• 23:28
  oriented, not in a silly way where you haven't figured out
• 23:30
  what should be done, but using the experience of everyone to
• 23:34
  expediently address issues as they come along.
• 23:37
  I would say, is that all this in an environment where I said
• 23:40
  everyone is, you know, it's true.
• 23:43
  We really do want a drug to develop, a drug that will make
• 23:47
  people feel like they've contributed to the betterment of
• 23:52
  of humankind. You know, and here in this
• 23:54
  environment, people are not all, you know, situated in the same
• 23:57
  place. You know, there's a French, you
• 24:00
  know, people that that work in France, people that work in the
• 24:02
  US. And I would say Marc has been
• 24:04
  able to make sure that that work is seamless.
• 24:10
  And maybe Marc can say how he does that.
• 24:14
  I don't know, but I think the, the, yeah, I think of research
• 24:19
  with the, you know, there is a great openness in the company,
• 24:26
  the recognition that, you know, there are things that go well,
• 24:28
  but there are also a number of things that don't go too well,
• 24:31
  especially again, clinical execution.
• 24:34
  And you have to be really fact based, you know, and also I
• 24:39
  think you have to to ensure that the culture is, you know,
• 24:45
  mistakes are going to happen. That's inevitable.
• 24:49
  And what you want is you want to have on one end a culture of
• 24:52
  excellence where people obviously give their best so
• 24:55
  that again, the the drug gets to to the patients, but also to
• 25:00
  have a culture that allows mistakes to be made and not
• 25:04
  punish too hard because then you know what happens.
• 25:08
  CCU go too hard, unless obviously it's something that
• 25:13
  is, you know, deliberate and the bad act, you know, it's going to
• 25:18
  be a learning experience as, as as we go.
• 25:22
  And but excellence needs to be to be to be achieved.
• 25:25
  So what I like is this interaction, this openness and
• 25:28
  the fact that people accept when they make mistakes, they say I
• 25:32
  make a mistake. And I think it's start actually
• 25:34
  with the, with the CEO who has, you know, the CEO is, you know,
• 25:37
  makes it a year or so. It's a mistake.
• 25:41
  But what also I, I want to make sure is we recognise, you know,
• 25:45
  great performers and we value a great contribution.
• 25:49
  And because again, in a small company, your, your role is
• 25:55
  obviously disproportionate in terms of, of what you bring to
• 25:58
  the ultimate, you know, outcome. And, you know, there are people
• 26:04
  who work really very, very hard that are very smart.
• 26:07
  And we want to, you know, we want them to feel already
• 26:11
  accountable and to thrive on this.
• 26:13
  So this is a culture again, with where openness, I think play,
• 26:16
  play, play the key role. And I think we have had again, a
• 26:19
  fantastic boss. And, and the fact that Sylvia
• 26:23
  join us is also, you know, a wonderful proof of, you know,
• 26:30
  this, this, this culture because Sylvia, what she does is, you
• 26:34
  know, she, she says what she does and she does what she says.
• 26:37
  So which is very important because the number of
• 26:40
  unfortunately, the number of leaders tend to, you know, have
• 26:44
  a nice blah, blah, blah. And then they don't practice
• 26:47
  what they, what they say, which ruins actually the, the culture.
• 26:50
  But I think you know, from, let's say from, from the board,
• 26:53
  from the chair, the chairwoman, the board members, you know, my
• 26:57
  management team, we all strive to, to, you know, to be open and
• 27:00
  to be, you know, resolute in, in, you know, resolving the
• 27:04
  issues, but having a sense of excellence to try to, to, to do
• 27:09
  the best for, for, for the patients.
• 27:12
  Yeah, I love that. And I love that, like culture
• 27:15
  aspect. It was Ray Dalio who famously
• 27:19
  came out and said they had a mistake log and everyone
• 27:22
  recorded their mistakes for everyone to see and learn from
• 27:24
  them, same kind of thing. I like that.
• 27:28
  I'm interested in this as well because but you've been CEO and
• 27:32
  chair before, right? And seeing this, you know, quite
• 27:36
  a dynamic CEO and chair relationships quite fascinating.
• 27:41
  How do you define each other's roles and make sure that you're
• 27:45
  you're aligned without stepping on each other's toes?
• 27:50
  Maybe I'll start. You know, we, Mark and I both
• 27:54
  been in each role, right? I've been in his role and I and
• 27:58
  he's been a chair. And so I think that we, we kind
• 28:02
  of know what the, the segregation of duties is on the
• 28:06
  surface. Obviously, you know, I runs the
• 28:09
  company and the operational aspects and everything to do
• 28:13
  with hiring and, and making sure that the staffed and
• 28:17
  capabilities are inside the company, the board overseas, you
• 28:20
  know, and, and the strategy and the agrees the plans of the
• 28:24
  company. And, and that helps, you know,
• 28:27
  in this particular instance in, in a smaller company, there's
• 28:30
  obviously more expectation from each of the board members to
• 28:35
  contribute to the strategy and, and help, if they know a
• 28:38
  consultant that can help on some aspect to provide that
• 28:42
  assistance. And so, and sometimes exists
• 28:46
  committees of the board are made so that they can oversee a
• 28:48
  particular aspect of what's going on, not to they have a
• 28:53
  supervisory role, but also just that, you know, a contribution
• 28:56
  role, which is very important in in a small company.
• 29:00
  And so, and because Mark and I have worked before in a way it
• 29:04
  was together. It see, we've sort of naturally
• 29:08
  know, you know, OK, this is in your camp and this is in my
• 29:12
  camp, you know, in terms of what I can help.
• 29:15
  And so I think that's and the openness that we talked about
• 29:20
  because we're just sort of direct about OK, right.
• 29:23
  And it's it's it falls rather easily.
• 29:27
  It's not always the case that because because we've had these
• 29:30
  roles elsewhere, we also know that that's not always the case.
• 29:33
  But I would say that we knew ahead of time that, you know,
• 29:37
  that would aspect would work relatively well, Mark Oh, when
• 29:42
  we meet regularly, right. I mean, we meet on a very
• 29:45
  regular basis to exchange on what's going on so that
• 29:49
  everyone's up, up to speed with what what what's going on in the
• 29:54
  country. Yeah, I think it is no surprise.
• 29:57
  You know, you know to especially when you are the CEO, you know,
• 30:02
  again, you need to trust the board.
• 30:04
  As you said, the board helps you actually in certain areas where
• 30:08
  you, you, we may not have all the capability or all the
• 30:10
  experience. So it's, you know, it's all this
• 30:12
  question of the trust. It's, and again, I've been lucky
• 30:16
  because I'm going to trust a lot of the CV.
• 30:18
  So we, I think we know exactly when to, when to intervene.
• 30:22
  You know, I send a message. I don't, I don't need a formal,
• 30:25
  you know, to make a formal appointment with CV.
• 30:27
  You know, either I text, either I send a mail about something
• 30:31
  about the questions or, and, and the other way around.
• 30:33
  So it's a very sort of fluid and, and, but I would, I have to
• 30:37
  say it's a very privileged interaction because I've been on
• 30:40
  other boards. Well, the relationship between,
• 30:43
  you know, the chairman and the CEO can be very intense.
• 30:46
  I mean, and, and there are some example of public companies that
• 30:49
  are, have been notoriously exposed to this kind of issue.
• 30:52
  So, but because drug development is so complicated, it is
• 30:57
  fantastic to have, you know, as many people aligned and having
• 31:00
  the board and the, the and the, you know, the senior management
• 31:04
  of the company aligned so. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's awesome
• 31:07
  to see, you know, such a a great relationship between chair and
• 31:11
  CEO. You're obviously on the same
• 31:12
  page all the time. But I've got one more question
• 31:17
  and it's one we've added to the podcast since we last spoke,
• 31:20
  Mark. But we asked this at the end of
• 31:22
  every episode, if you could choose any scientist or
• 31:28
  innovator, past or present, to have dinner with who, who would
• 31:32
  it be and why? Maybe start with you, Mark.
• 31:36
  Well, I think the, the person that has, you know, impressed me
• 31:41
  a lot, you know, over the last few years is a scientist that
• 31:47
  not only has the, I would say, you know, the fundamental
• 31:52
  science ability, but also the ability to execute and to
• 31:56
  transform IDs into, into real drugs.
• 32:00
  And there are not so many, you know, scientists who are able to
• 32:03
  do that, especially on a, on a, on a continuous basis.
• 32:07
  So his name is Bob Langer. He's at MIT And, you know, he
• 32:11
  has created, I don't know how many companies in, in biotech
• 32:15
  was very successful exits directly or indirectly.
• 32:20
  He was obviously part of the modern adventure.
• 32:22
  So my plan is to have a a dinner with him one of these days.
• 32:28
  That's a good one. I know Bob Langer, and that's
• 32:31
  very true. He's a great innovator of drugs
• 32:34
  and technologies in general. It's amazing the breadth of his,
• 32:38
  what he can do. So Makhtuka chose a very good
• 32:43
  scientist that lives here in Boston that I know and I would
• 32:47
  love to see him more often. So I'm going to pick someone
• 32:51
  from the past who's no longer with us.
• 32:53
  I'm Canadian and I'm on the Novo Nordisk board.
• 32:56
  So you could say I always going to be Banting in best, but it's
• 32:59
  not, I'm going to say to say that Fleming to me was a
• 33:04
  transformational scientist because he did change the course
• 33:08
  of history by inventing penicillin in 1928.
• 33:12
  And I think that none of us would be here today if we
• 33:15
  couldn't master treating infections.
• 33:17
  And he took, you know, a biological something from a
• 33:21
  mushroom in order to to treat microorganisms.
• 33:25
  And I wonder I would like to ask him or figure out how he did
• 33:30
  that and, you know, came up with this idea.
• 33:33
  And 2nd, whether he understood that the importance of what this
• 33:37
  had for the rest of mine, mankind and humanity going
• 33:41
  forward without the treatment, without penicillin, probably we
• 33:46
  would all not live to the age that and have Bob Langer to
• 33:50
  invent new things for us all the time.
• 33:54
  I love that. Thank you so much guys.
• 33:56
  Honestly so grateful to have you both on.
• 33:59
  It's been amazing. Thank you, Max.
• 34:02
  Thank you, Max. Alright everyone please like and
• 34:05
  subscribe to the Biohub and thank you again guys take.
• 34:10
  Care.