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Thomas Cromwell: From Statesman to Scaffold (Part II) · Beheaded

0:04
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to season four, episode 13, part two.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm Megan Moore.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Elizabeth Black.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: Do you like that?
0:15
SPEAKER_01: Do you like that music?
0:16
SPEAKER_01: Kind of like a new It's a little thing we're doing.
0:19
SPEAKER_00: It's a special episode.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we want you to know the impact of this episode on your life, you.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: I hope music adds not only ambiance, but emotions.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: Emotions.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: Foreboding feelings.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: Ooh, we got foreboding in there.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: I felt like that music was foreboding.
0:37
SPEAKER_01: I think it was more uplifting.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: Or uh downlifting.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: Down.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: Downlift.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: I was lifted down by that music.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: That was my goal.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm still confused as to what the goal is.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: Is this this is happy music?
0:55
SPEAKER_00: No.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: It's like somber.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: I thought it was like evangelical, like I I I was thinking of more like the battle scene.
1:08
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, welcome to our season finale.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: Our actual season finale.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: Apparently, both of our spouse's partners, boyfriends, what do you want to call them, were like, I thought you already finished your season.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: Why are you still going?
1:22
SPEAKER_00: Both of them said that.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: You already do your season finale.
1:25
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of rude.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: And both of them claim that they listened to the first one where we specified it was part one of two.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: I think it's because that day we had a lot going on and we were like, we're gonna knock out two of these things in one day.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: We talked really highly of ourselves, and it didn't happen.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: So here we are two weeks later with our actual finale.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Part two.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: Part the of Thomas Cromwell.
1:49
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: Before we talk about Cromwell, though, and his lovely ending, we have a big announcement.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: Huge, in fact.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: Huge.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: Bigger than anything you've ever heard of.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: Felt appropriate to share on our season finale.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: I think we were kind of pressured into doing this because of our season finale.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: We were.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: We've had a very big season.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: We've had special guests.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: We've had Megan Clausen, James Peacock, and Dr.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: Owen Emerson.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: And we just thought it was like appropriate to like go and see.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: Walk the walk that we walk what's the phrase?
2:24
SPEAKER_01: Walk the walk.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: Walk the walk that we talk.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: We're talking the talk, and now we're gonna walk the walk.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: We're talking the talk, we're gonna walk the walk.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: In London.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: We're going to London.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: Together.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: Together this time.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: October 2023.
2:39
SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth Black and Megan Moore beheaded takes London.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: We go to London.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: We are so excited.
2:45
SPEAKER_01: We booked our trip.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: We are in the process of booking our hotel slash castles.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: We gotta do that tonight.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: We're definitely staying in castles, so we'll be there.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: At least a couple.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: We we have to book it tonight.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: We'll look at it out of pressure.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: Within the next week.
3:02
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: But I'm so excited.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: We're going there.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: Do you know the official dates?
3:08
SPEAKER_01: October.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, October 17th.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: 17th.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: Well, we're leaving on the 16th, arriving October 17th through the 24th.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: So a full week.
3:17
SPEAKER_01: Full week.
3:17
SPEAKER_01: We'll be there.
3:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, and we are building out our itinerary.
3:21
SPEAKER_01: We've got a lot of spots we want to hit.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: We want to meet some executionados.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: We want to meet some people that we've interviewed.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be very exciting.
3:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: And Megan, you've been there before, but it's my technically my first time there.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: You've never been.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: I've been to like Western Europe, but I've never been to London.
3:38
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like watching a favorite movie before before like your friend has seen it.
3:43
SPEAKER_00: So I have to not talk through it.
3:45
SPEAKER_00: I have to let you experience for your first time.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: I just kind of want to let you take me though.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: Like I don't want to like have, you know, yeah, my own agenda.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: I want it to be like take me around.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: I've definitely learned some things from the last time.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: Like, for example, when my husband and I first went to London, like the complete Taurus fools that we were, we purchased tickets for the train through the little machine and got a physical ticket of like waiting to show it to somebody.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: Mind you, I do like that ticket as a little bit of like a keepsake because it says from Tower Hill to Heaver Castle, which is kind of cool because it's like that's the opposite direction of Ambolin's last like hurried.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, but like things of just getting a little bit more savvy, knowing where things are, knowing how to use the tube.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: And then the tube.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: Look, listen to this girl from Arizona.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: And then our like top itinerary, obviously Tower of London.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: Hampton Court Palace.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: Heaver Castle.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
4:43
SPEAKER_00: The London Dungeon ride experience tour.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: Whatever that ride is that does a little drop that Megan says she's quote unquote not going to be very afraid of.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: Ah, I'll be fine.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: I just want to remind you, for new listeners, this is the same girl that asked the Disney Park employees how big the drop on the Pirates of the Caribbean ride is.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: I just want to clarify so they know who you are.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't like drops, okay?
5:11
SPEAKER_01: She could like drops.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: How big is the drop in Pirates of the Caribbean?
5:15
SPEAKER_01: And they're like It's 14 feet.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: I feel like that now.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: They're like the slide, ma'am.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: You mean the slide?
5:21
SPEAKER_01: She's like, no, the drop.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: It's 14 feet, isn't it?
5:23
SPEAKER_01: I don't like drops, okay?
5:24
SPEAKER_00: I don't like drops.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay, we just I just want to be clear that, you know.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna do that.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna do the Harry Potter studio tour.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna eat, drink, be merry.
5:34
SPEAKER_01: All the lovely British food that everyone speaks so highly of.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: Did you like my British dinner I made for you tonight?
5:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Megan made me um a sausage and bangers.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: Chips.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: Bangers.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: Excuse me.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: What the fuck is bangers?
5:50
SPEAKER_01: Sausage.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: Oh, she made me bangers and mash.
5:53
SPEAKER_01: Can I say she made me a banger?
5:54
SPEAKER_01: Is that I don't know.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: The pepper.
5:56
SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't know.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: Okay, anyway, she made me a fucking sausage and peas and mashed potatoes.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: They weren't mashed potatoes.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: The church doesn't have mashed potatoes, so it's mashed cauliflower substitute.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: And beans, bean baked beans.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: And a piece of white cautious.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: And white bread.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: And I scooped it all up with my white bread, and I was like, this is very tasty.
6:16
SPEAKER_00: It was the best thing you've ever had, huh?
6:18
SPEAKER_01: I was very impressed.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: Was it better or worse than the Salisbury steak I made you in season one?
6:23
SPEAKER_01: Well, I had to get a little more drunk, so I can't quite answer that question.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: But I think I liked it better than Salisbury steak.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
6:29
SPEAKER_00: Made it from scratch.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: I liked it a lot.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, so we are open to suggestions.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: If anyone is in London between October 17th and October 24th, please see us.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: We're just gonna we're basically just gonna camp out right and from Tower of London with a little table.
6:46
SPEAKER_01: No, we'll be the two girls in the sleeping bags that we get.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna get kicked out of Tower Green.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna get kicked out of Tower of London like we got kicked out of the Renaissance fair.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they don't know what's coming, okay?
6:59
SPEAKER_01: Oh, no.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: For solicitation.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: For solicit.
7:03
SPEAKER_00: We actually might.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: That would be.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: Oh, if a yeoman walked us out, we'd be just like a prisoner.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: But would they put us on the barge?
7:13
SPEAKER_01: That'd be cool.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: Let's see what kind of trouble we can get into.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: No trouble.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna be able to do it.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: Good girls.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna get our membership passed.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: We should do that tonight, too.
7:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay, what time is it right now?
7:25
SPEAKER_01: It is 9 14 in the evening.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how much time you think we have after this.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: Like we're gonna stay up all night.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: Any hoozle.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: Megan is gonna recap our part one of Thomas Cromwell, and then we're gonna jump right into where we left off with his downfall.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: So in part one, we talked about his, I almost said an upfall.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: That that's accurate.
7:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: You can follow up.
7:52
SPEAKER_00: So as a recap, Thomas Cromwell, he started off as a son of a butcher.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: Well, his father had like a few different trades, and he wasn't a great man, but he came from pretty much like the bottom of London society and really had to work his way up.
8:08
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: He started off as kind of a low life, he became a mercenary, went to went to Italy, um, worked as a soldier for a little bit.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: He was a bit of a ruffian in his young days, said Thomas Kramer.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: He then came over to England where he started making a name for himself and he became a lawyer, and really people started noticing who he was.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: He was very intelligent, very smart.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: Um he did have a wife, a son, and two daughters.
8:37
SPEAKER_00: His wife and his two daughters all died within the year of presumably the sweating sickness, is what we're most historians believe.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: Right.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: By 1523, Thomas Cromwell got a seat in the House of Commons, and from there he just kept working his way up.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: He was very close to um Wolz Cardinal Woolsey.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: He was a member of his household, and even though there was a lot of controversy around Woolsey, he saw him as a bit of a mentor and they were close partners.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: Um and then, of course, the dissolution of the monasteries, about 30,000 monasteries he helped take down.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: And this is when he really started bringing in Protestantism and helping King Henry VIII break away from the Catholic Church and take down the Catholic monasteries and make him the head of the Church of England.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: By 1529, he was in Parliament and he was very much in the King's favor.
9:34
SPEAKER_00: He helped raise all the support for Anne Boleyn and getting his divorce with uh Queen Catherine of Aragon and helped Anne Boleyn get on the throne.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: But as soon as he got her on the throne, he also got her off the throne.
9:46
SPEAKER_00: Quickly.
9:47
SPEAKER_00: Very quickly.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: Um he had a lot of conflict with Anne Boleyn, and a lot believe him to be the root cause of her downfall.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: Right.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: So it's just like he's a lot of yin and yang.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: Like, yes, he brought her up, but then he brings her down.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know, it's it's like, yes, he was a partner of Cardinal Woolsey, and then he brings down the monasteries.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: I just felt like he really was whatever Henry wanted at that time.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I was gonna say the only thing that he doesn't really flinch on is just whatever King Henry VIII desires.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: So whether it's, you know, dissolution of the monasteries or rising up Anne Boleyn or bringing down Anne Boleyn, like he's there to make sure whatever Henry wishes, Henry gets.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: Which is pretty like a a smart card to play.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: I almost feel like all of these different drivers, there wasn't any true passion behind it.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm just gonna use Anne Boleyn, for example, or actually a better example, Sir Thomas More.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: Cool, yeah.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: Sir Thomas More, yes, he was Henry VIII's like closest confidant, best friend.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: He also had King Henry the Eighth's eighth's ear.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: But Thomas More actually had some beliefs, I feel like, and he stood by them and he stood up for what he believed in.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: And the moment that Henry was like, no, no, no, I want to break away from the Catholic Church, Thomas More stood by his side.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: Right.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: Cromwell is pretty like wish-washy.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: He's kind of like, whatever you want, my lord.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: My lord, my lord.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: It's a very in the last episode, Elizabeth referred to him as Sir Hiss, like in Robin Hood.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: It's just very submissive and very just, yeah, I just picture him as like this bowing, kind of obnoxious character.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: But a lot of his own ambition in the mix, obviously.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: He's just trying to make sure he uh maintains his role as the favorite, that he gets what he wants, because obviously he's not just doing this for nothing.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: He's getting estates, he's getting money.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: We talked about how much money he made on the last episode.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: He was master of the jewels, which is all of the crown jewels um being stored in the Tower of London.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: So he's working his way up.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: He's a statesman, he's a politician, he has legal background.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: Right.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: And he's also making some enemies.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: He is.
12:05
SPEAKER_01: And this is where we left off in the last episode because we talked about the end of the last episode that he officially gets Anne Boleyn executed.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: And again, it's not just him.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, there's a lot going on at this time that brings her down, but he's the one that initially, like Megan said, kind of circulates the rumors and puts the bug in Henry's ear that says, Hey, I think she's unfaithful.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: Like, I think things are going on that you don't quite know about.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: And this all culminates with Anne Boleyn's execution.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: And that's when we talk about how he replaces Anne's father, Thomas Boleyn, um, as Lord Privy Seal in July 1536.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: So this is where we're leaving off for this current episode.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: So around this time, also in 1536, something called the Ten Articles is released.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: And this is essentially the government's opposition to certain Catholic beliefs.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: They're saying, hey, you know, worshiping saints isn't quite okay.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: And just idolizing Mother Mary, like, isn't necessarily what we want to do as a church.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: Like, we want to not have these idols and just believe in your faith with God directly, which is something that the Catholic Church didn't really do until this time.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: So he starts endorsing that.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a lot of rebellious leaders that start springing up throughout the country, certain Catholic rebel leaders that are saying, Cromwell, you're taking it too far.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: Like, we understand that you're trying to get some money out of these monasteries, but now that these 10 articles are released, you're actually suppressing like our right to be Catholic, which again he's kind of been leading to this whole time.
13:41
SPEAKER_01: And I want to point to one quote that Thomas Darcy says, who is one of the uh Catholic rebels kind of advocating against these 10 articles, and he says, while he's being tortured in the Tower of London, well, I'll say interrogated, tortured allegedly, we don't know, as always.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: He said to Thomas Cromwell, Men who have been in cases like with their princes, ye, be now have come at last to the same end that ye would now bring on to me.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: So it's essentially saying, you might be like all powerful right now, but you're gonna meet the same fate that I am in the tower.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: So I just feel like that's a little nice, ominous thing to kind of plug in there.
14:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, but here is Thomas Cromwell again at the peak of his power, still doing all of this with the monasteries and kind of squeezing every last dollar out of the Catholic Church, still trying to reform religion in England at this time.
14:36
SPEAKER_01: And he goes so far as to kind of co-write this uh, I guess you can call it a pamphlet called The Bishop's Book.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: And the Bishop's Book is really a um, it's a book that's telling people which sacraments should be considered the core sacraments of faith.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: Essentially, same thing as the Ten Articles saying, hey, like, not all this like craziness you're learning from the Catholic Church is true.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: So he strips away all the Cat um all the Catholic sacraments from like seven main sacraments to three main sacraments.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: And he's saying, your salvation doesn't just come from like good deeds and sacraments on this earth.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: Your salvation comes from your faith in God.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: And again, that was very revolutionary at the time because at the time people really thought you had to do all these things, like, you know, go to church every Sunday and listen to the priest, like talk, you know, speak in Latin and have these idols, do the professions, like all the standard Catholic things you're supposed to do in order to attain salvation.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't just your personal relationship with God, it was like so many more things.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: Like you were always a step away from God because there was always a priest or a pope or a bishop in some place in between.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to say in the way.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: He was like your, I guess, vessel or guide or whatever.
15:50
SPEAKER_00: You had to talk through, but you couldn't have that direct relationship with God.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: Or even if you couldn't read Latin, you couldn't even read.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you weren't allowed to leave to read the scripture.
15:59
SPEAKER_01: You weren't allowed to read the Bible because all of that was through priests.
16:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so the king didn't really have much to say about this bishop's book directly, but he kind of ri reaffirmed Thomas's support by officially appointing him to the Order of the Garter, which we've talked about on this podcast.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: Fonse.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: It's very fancy in 1537.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: And if you remember Laura uh the Order of the Garter, it's kind of like a little mini fraternity with inside the court.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: You I think you literally have like a garter, right, around your leg, and it's like I'm a part of the king's club.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: Like he trusts.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: It sounds like such a frat club.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: It is such a fraternity like that.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: Like you wear the letterman jacket, or you've got the like your letters, like your Greek letters on your exactly in your hoodie.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: I know people who've had it tattooed on their skin.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: I don't do that.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: That's dumb.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: No offense to anybody out there.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: I had friends.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: Even friends.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: They don't listen, it's fine.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: That's fine.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: I was in a sorority, I don't have that shit tattooed on my body.
16:57
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, um, so so yeah, so this was like his way of kind of acknowledging, hey, you're doing good work, you're still reforming the church, blah blah blah.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, so he officially becomes like, again, member of Order of the Garter.
17:12
SPEAKER_01: However, we have to remember at this time that the Privy Council is still very conservative.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: Like, not everyone is on this whole reformist belief.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: They're not still like, yes, it's a Church of England at this point, but they're not bought into this whole idea of like Catholicism is gone.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: So um, by January 1538, he like continues his crusade even to like a greater degree.
17:36
SPEAKER_01: He starts not just doing the whole like, I don't know, d like, what do you want to call it, uh, dissolution of the monasteries, but he's also saying like pilgrimage should be banned, certain relics, certain idols, like any superstitions, that there needs to be an English Bible in every single church.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: So he starts really like moving this along quickly to the point where even Henry is kind of like increasingly unhappy about the extent of all these religious religious reforms.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: He's like, okay, okay, okay, like, yes, you're like, you know, member of the Order of the Garter now, but we need to like take a little bit of a step back.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: And that's when Henry actually gives one of the committees in Parliament to kind of look at the current religious doctrine and say, what is okay and what is not okay?
18:20
SPEAKER_01: Because we're all kind of confused.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: Everyone is at this time in England.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: So that's when they respond, the Parliament responds, with the Act of Six Articles.
18:30
SPEAKER_01: So now, in response to the 10 articles that was just established.
18:34
SPEAKER_01: They reduced it to six.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, but they've also flipped it on its head, because the 10 was mostly reformist about like anti-Catholic beliefs.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: And now the Act of Six is saying, is like kind of reaffirming what traditional Catholic values are okay.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: So they're saying, hey, these certain sacraments are okay, like priesthood in a certain way is okay.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, traditional views on mass, all of those are okay.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: So in a weird way, it's like kind of just reaffirming certain things.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: And that's when we officially bring Miss Jane Seymour into the picture.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: I like talking about Henry's love life.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: So I'm very proud that you you follow through on the entire political and landscape and religious landscape happening right now.
19:17
SPEAKER_00: But to the juicy stuff.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: I like to talk about what's going on with Henry and his private life.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: So Jane Seymour does her wifely duty and finally gives King Henry VIII the legitimate son that he's been looking for, who turns into, of course, Edward VI.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: We all know the story.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to assume anything.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: Right.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: Jane Seymour, his third wife, dies about a week after Edward was born.
19:45
SPEAKER_00: Very difficult birth.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: And they were only married for like five months, I think.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: They were married in May.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: It was very quick.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: 1537.
19:53
SPEAKER_00: Yep, they got married.
19:54
SPEAKER_00: So kind of a quick timeline.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: Anne was executed May 19th, 1536.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: He marries Jane 11 days later on May 30th, 1536.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: Okay, not seven.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it it it was a pretty it the fact that he married Jane 11 days after Anne's execution is just such a slap in the face to everything.
20:17
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: You know, she's basically getting ready and getting fit for her wedding gown while Anna's in the tower preparing for her death.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: But we all love the drama that goes behind that, right?
20:28
SPEAKER_00: It's just such a great setup that they've created.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: You of course the dramas that we watch are they have to highlight that because it happened.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: I I will say I was trying to give the secret, or what's called, sorry, the private lives of King Henry VIII.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm butchering that name.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: I think that's right.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: The movie The 1537 movie.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: I Oh, the movies from 1537.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm sorry.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: 1937.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: Which is interesting because that's like literally 400 years exactly.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: Basically, I really tried to give it a go, but it turned me off when they were making it look like he was marrying Jane the night of like the day of execution.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: And whatever.
21:08
SPEAKER_00: I'll I let that be for now.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: Really quick Disney plug.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: That's also when Snow White and the Seven Doors.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: Wait, what sorry, what came out?
21:15
SPEAKER_01: Well, you missed it because you interrupted.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: I did.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: Say it again.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: Snow White and the Seven Doors came out that same day.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: Not day, 1937.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: The day that Henry Bay was married.
21:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, now we're this is the multiverse of timelines.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so they get married May 30th, 1536.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: Um it was in October 1537, so about a year and a half later, she gives birth to Edward.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: And she tragically dies one week later.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: And of course, Henry's distraught.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: It was the love of his life.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: Blah, blah, blah.
21:49
SPEAKER_00: You know, what coulda, shoulda, would have happened, we have no idea in history.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: However, once Henry starts recovering from that grief, Cromwell is tasked with finding.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Henry a new wife.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: Wife number four.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: Because as we all know, Henry is notorious for always having one wife after the next.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: So Cromwell goes on this mass search to find the new wife.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: So he lands on one of the German princesses.
22:16
SPEAKER_00: Mm.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: Anne of Cleves.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: He's like The Bachelor, but then.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: Like this.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: Or like Cinderella, like on this search through the lands, finding the next princess.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: I like that better.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: I don't watch The Bachelor.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: Or the Bachelor or The Bachelor, I don't know.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: I don't watch The Bachelor.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: I was just trying to get something people can relate to.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: Thomas Cromwell was just riding across the lands of Europe with a bundle of roses, handing them out, being like, you have a rose.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: What do they say?
22:41
SPEAKER_01: I don't watch a terrible example.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: This is the last people.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: Will they say this is the final rose?
22:46
SPEAKER_01: Stuff they say to you?
22:47
SPEAKER_01: Or how do they give you a rose?
22:49
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: They say, like, Megan, you get a rose.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: There's a phrase that they use.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there's a phrase.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: There's so many people right now cringing, like, how can he not know this?
22:57
SPEAKER_00: Because the bachelor's stupid.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: I've joined many of Zoom calls where they start talking about the bachelor and the bachelorette.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: And I have no idea what they're talking about.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: And I just nod and agree.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: And then I'm like, do you know that Anne of Cleves was the fourth wife of King Henry VIII?
23:13
SPEAKER_00: This is the real stuff that matters.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: Screw the bachelor's.
23:16
SPEAKER_00: Our own version of The Bachelor.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: So Henry's the Bachelor right now, and Cromwell's off handing out his roses, trying to find the next princess.
23:23
SPEAKER_00: And he believes that Anne of Cleves, the German princess, is the perfect match for Henry.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: And they've heard legends about her beauty.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: She's supposed supposedly the most beautiful woman of the land.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't be exaggerating.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: Once upon a time.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: The most beautiful Freudline around.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: Our favorite portrait artist of the time, Hans Holbein.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: Why am I talking with my hands so much right now?
23:47
SPEAKER_00: I like it.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: I look like an animatronic line to in the Hall of Presidents.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: Megan's like.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: And we have the Hans Holbein picture.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: I wish people this is why we need video while we record.
24:00
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna get video.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: We are gonna be so embarrassing if we ever get it.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: I think next season we need a video where we show.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: And this is the famous video.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: People be like, oh my god, that's what they look like when they talk.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: These girls aren't even real.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: We're just doing the robot.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: Really, though.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: So I'm ready.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: Hans Holbein paints the portrait of Anne of Cleves.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: Infamous.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: Famous portrait.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: And the house of Holbein, y'all.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: Currently hung in the Louvre in Paris, which I never saw.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: I didn't either.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: We've both been to the Louvre.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: Never saw.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: Well, I I did not go inside the Louvre.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's right.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: For good reason.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: It was crowded.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
24:42
SPEAKER_01: Trust me, guys.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: You don't want to hear this story about why I didn't go into the Louvre.
24:46
SPEAKER_01: Too many people.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: Hear me out.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: It was the first Sunday, and evidently the first Sunday of the month in Paris.
24:53
SPEAKER_00: It's like free museum day.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: They do that in Denver.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: Not I don't know when.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: Well, the line was like three hours long.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: So I had other places to be, people to see.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: It's so ridiculous.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: Anyways, if you want to go see the actual portrait we're referring to, it is currently hanging in the Louvre.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: That's cool.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: And it's actually a pretty good portrait.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: Like Elizabeth and I always laugh.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: Like, she's actually kind of nice looking.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: Why did he in a weird way?
25:17
SPEAKER_01: And obviously, we have our weird 2023 standards of beauty, which neither of us agree with.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: But when you look at their portraits, you kind of think like Anna Cles is the prettiest one out of all the wives.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: Because, like, no offense, Jane Seymour, but like your portrait's not flattering.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: She had a I think our chins look the same, Jane and I, but we have You don't have the same chin.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: Um But that's the whole point of it.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: I I also have to remember, like, of course, we think that's the pretty portrait.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: Because that's the intention, that was the intention.
25:49
SPEAKER_00: She was painted very beautifully.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: She catfished him.
25:52
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
25:53
SPEAKER_00: So of course, Henry sees the portrait and he goes, Yes, that's my new wife.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: She arrives in London on December 27th, 1539.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: So Henry's already gone through his grieving process of Jane.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, had some ups and downs.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: It's been a while.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: He's ready for a wife.
26:10
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: And he does this funny thing where remember, Henry was a very attractive and yeah, uh a pretty likable guy in his early years.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: And I think he doesn't realize he's getting older.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: He's now middle-aged, he's getting big and gluttonous and nasty.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's already now he's gone through this whole grieving phase of his quote unquote favorite wife.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: So he's not in his best state.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like as a king, you don't know that that you've like declined because you're the king.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: Sure, no one's gonna tell him, like, sir, you're fat.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, everyone's gonna be like, Sir, you look more dashing every day.
26:45
SPEAKER_00: Like it's got his leg injury, like he's going through all of that.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: He probably still thinks he's the man.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: He's the King Henry VIII that we can picture at this point.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: But he thinks he's still like this little like trickster back from his early youth.
26:58
SPEAKER_00: So Anne on her way to London is actually met by a band of like masked men, and there's this nasty there's this huge, fat, nasty man in a mask who starts to try to kiss her, and she, of course, like pushes him away and embarrasses him.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: Little did she know that this was Henry's idea of a joke.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: Right because he's always been under the impression, like, well, people A, they normally know it's me, but she had no idea.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: She never knew what he looked like.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: Nobody prepared her, nobody warned her.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: She's in a whole other country, you know.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: She's foreigner, she doesn't know the language, she's scared.
27:34
SPEAKER_00: And so that was like kind of the first strike.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: Nine, nine, gets off, gets off.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: This dirty old stinky man's coming up on her.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: And rightfully so, she pushes him off.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: So she offends Henry, and he's all like, Oh, how did she not think I was handsome?
27:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, well, dude, take a step down.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of the first thing.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then he formally and officially meets her on New Year's Day, 1540.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: And what are the famous words?
28:03
SPEAKER_00: I like her not.
28:05
SPEAKER_01: She looks like a horse.
28:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like he compared her to his mare, you know, she looks like a horse.
28:13
SPEAKER_01: So he immediately says, like, this is not gonna work.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: But they still decide to go through with the marriage because at this time, I believe it was France and like Rome are kind of in cahoots, and Cathol Catholicism is like resurging.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: So England is looking for a partner in case there is a war, which it should be noted that under Cromwell's kind of influence, there really wasn't much war.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: He was a peacemaker, he was very much a sleuthy, you know, peacemaker kind of guy.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: And so there wasn't really war going on at the time, but to avoid war, that's a big reason why Anna Cleves came into the picture, because they were like, well, if you know, this Catholic alliance between France and um Italy/slash Rome like forms, then we definitely have to make sure that Germany's on our side could kind of be the Protestant people here or the you know, voice of the Reformation.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a really good point you bring up because I I feel like we bash so much on Cromwell, and again, this episode is not about Anacles, it's about Cromwell's kind of going back to him, readjusting our focus a little bit.
29:17
SPEAKER_00: Right.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: To your point, yes, he really, because he was in Henry's ear, he reminded him war is expensive.
29:25
SPEAKER_00: War obviously costs lives, but that's like probably down on the priority list.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: Right.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, but also there wasn't a lot of territorial gains that they were seeing from war during that time.
29:36
SPEAKER_00: So Henry kind of took a pause.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, not to fast forward, but after Cromwell is gone, of course, Henry gets back into war.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: So I think I think it's safe to assume, and I think a lot of other historians and sources will agree with this, that Cromwell was a main reason why England wasn't in war.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:56
SPEAKER_00: Costing lives, costing money, costing like not a lot of benefits.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, and so this whole thing was a political marriage.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: Despite her horse ish and terrible looks.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: How mad could she have been?
30:09
SPEAKER_01: I bet she was beautiful.
30:10
SPEAKER_00: I would love to see what everybody in history actually looked like.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: I know.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't that be something?
30:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: All the Ann's, all the Marys, all the Catherines, all the Catherines, all the Henries, all the Edwards, all the Thomases, like all of them.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: Bring them all back.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: We gotta see.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: I love the like AI, well, not even AI, but also the artists who do the reconstruction portraits.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: I appreciate people that do stuff like that.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: I do.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: I wish I was talented.
30:35
SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
30:35
SPEAKER_00: That's all we got.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: We're we're we're look at this talent we're bringing.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: Where were we?
30:42
SPEAKER_01: Well, really quick, too.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh, just on to your point about Cromwell being like a you know, peacemaker too.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: I think no matter what our opinion is on Cromwell, the one thing we can't agree on too is he was just kind of a master administrator.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: Like people often said they didn't quite know what title he had, but whatever title he did have, like he got things done.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: He kind of worked through different processes and figured out how things were gonna be better in terms of efficiency in court.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: Like the I think the thing that no one can disagree on is like he just knew how to run a successful like privy council and eventually government.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: And like everything that he kind of touched was very influential in things that we even see today in terms of like modern parliament or House of Lords or any of that.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: You know, like all of that kind of stems from ideas he had initially about what an organization should look like.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: He got shit done.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it got things done.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: Imagine if Henry VIII had a cell phone and he could call his privy council whenever he wanted.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: I feel like Cromwell would have been like that secretary or you know, the assistant, the the EA.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was gonna say like the executive assistant, who's always just constantly all hours of the night, just running to whatever he needed.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, Henry has an idea.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: I need to send this letter, I need to do this.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: Well, Henry's in the country, like getting ready for a hunt at four in the morning.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's doing all of it behind the scenes.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's kind of the story behind Anne of Cleves.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: Henry never consummated the marriage with Anne because he was so disturbed by her looks.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: Gross.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: And Cromwell started talking to other men in the privy council, more or less like, would you say it was to get their advice, or I mean, he started sharing the people, like, oh yeah, by the way, they've never consummated.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: Like it's not gonna work.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think he was getting nervous, like, shit, this this marriage isn't a success.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: And I basically set this up.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: Right.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: And he doesn't realize, I think, how many enemies he quite has at this time because there's still those conservatives within the Privy Council that are looking for a reason to kind of bring Cromwell down.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: So they all see this as their chance.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: They're like, great, like we finally have a reason why Cromwell shouldn't be around.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: It's because he's been way over the top with this whole like dissolution of monasteries, like, you know, reform of the Catholic Church type of thing.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: And now he's introduced um Henry to his fourth wife that he hates.
33:06
SPEAKER_01: Because at this point, they're moving forward with the marriage.
33:08
SPEAKER_01: Like, nothing is stopping the marriage.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: They still need Germany on their side.
33:12
SPEAKER_01: So this is his uh Thomas Cromwell's kind of his uh enemy's time to say, we got him, like this is it.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: So officially, what happens on June 10th, 1540?
33:24
SPEAKER_01: Again, this is the same year as his marriage to Anna Cleeves, Cromwell gets arrested.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: And they don't really have a solid reason except for they say that he had a like essentially it's it's heresy and treason.
33:40
SPEAKER_01: Like he's out for religious reform.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: That was kind of their main, like, uh I guess pit against him.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: And the Duke of Norfolk was like the primary person on this privy council who was trying to bring Cromwell down.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: And one, once Cromwell was arrested, it was literally like a whole like scene.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't just like on this day they got him, it was like a privy council meeting.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: Like they ambushed him, they ambushed him.
34:03
SPEAKER_00: It was completely set up.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: So Cromwell walks in being like, hey guys, like what's the news today?
34:09
SPEAKER_01: Like, how about them Yankees?
34:11
SPEAKER_01: And he literally is like ambushed, they're they're telling him he's arrested.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: So you're a traitor, but yeah.
34:19
SPEAKER_01: The Duke of Norfolk literally like snatches his St.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: George's collar, which is um, as we talked about earlier, like this this it's the symbol of the Order of the Garter.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: So it's saying, like, you are a traitor, you're not allowed to have this anymore.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: Which is the like the biggest disrespect to Cromwell because he hated traitors.
34:37
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
34:37
SPEAKER_00: His biggest thing was like being loyal the most faithful man in Henry's court, right?
34:45
SPEAKER_00: And like he was the one who was already arresting and executing the traitors, and now they're pointing fingers that he's the traitor.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: He was completely blindsided by this.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: And can you just imagine the gossip that was going around amongst the men in the privy council up until this are like, yo, we're gonna get Cromwell today.
35:03
SPEAKER_00: What are we gonna say?
35:04
SPEAKER_00: They must have won't be like I'm gonna snatch his St.
35:06
SPEAKER_00: George's collar.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: They must have hated him, and they were just like, we need to figure out how to get this guy out.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: The best way to do that is call someone a traitor.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: Instantly, like, you're done.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: And we've talked about this before on the show.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, high treason, you're done.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: Like, there's not you don't have to have much evidence.
35:22
SPEAKER_01: You're just like, yo, you're a traitor, high treason, go.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: Anything that means that you're not loyal to the king.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: Right.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: So beheaded.
35:31
SPEAKER_01: Beheaded.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: So as soon as uh they arrest him, he's taken by barge to the tower and immediately imprisoned.
35:38
SPEAKER_01: And they kind of at this point tell him of his like official, I guess, uh, issues with the crown.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: So it's more at this point, you know, it's it's beyond just heresy and treason.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: They accuse him of supporting Anabaptists, of corruption.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: They accuse him of leniency in matters of justice, they accuse him of acting for personal gain, of protecting the Protestants accused of heresy, which again, they just enforce these six articles.
36:05
SPEAKER_01: So they're saying, like, you are not properly enforcing these six articles.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: You're letting a lot of Protestants off the hook.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: And this one came out of frickin' nowhere.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: They say, you're also plotting to marry the king's daughter, Mary I.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: Cute.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: What?
36:21
SPEAKER_00: Don't you feel like when they slap when they slap so many different accusations, one on top of the next, I feel like it almost loses the value.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: And they did the same thing with Anne Boleyn.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: They're like, yo, it's not just that you did this one thing, but we're gonna name ten things that we think you did wrong.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: And they think that they're building this strong case of, oh, you can't get out of all of these.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: But really, it's like, okay, now you're just fishing.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: Now you're just trying to scramble and grab whatever like hair her what's the word heretic?
36:51
SPEAKER_00: Is that a word?
36:52
SPEAKER_00: Heretic.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: Heretic.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: Heretic.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: Treasonous?
36:56
SPEAKER_00: Treasonous crime.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: Let's not let's not hear ourselves here.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: Ecclesiastical crime.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: Ecclesiastical crime.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: No, just kidding.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: I learned that word though.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: I know.
37:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, no, I just feel like it almost they think that they're building a stronger case.
37:10
SPEAKER_00: But in my mind, I feel like it weakens it.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, that's like.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: I agree.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: What what am I trying to think over there?
37:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, well, I think like they always say when you're telling a lie that yes, detail is good because it looks like your lie is real, but sometimes if you give like too much detail, then they're way too on to you.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: You overthought it though.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're like, okay, so you said on a Tuesday afternoon at five, like at three o'clock, you were here, and then you saw this.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: Like, that's a lot of too much detail.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: Usually, if it's the truth, it's kind of like a yeah, I was generally here, I don't know exactly what time it was.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: But all almost if you're too detailed, it's like too specific, and at that point they know you're lying.
37:51
SPEAKER_00: That like one podcast serial that came out 10 years ago, yeah.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: That was how they started it.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because he was like, I literally don't remember what I was doing that day because it was an insignificant day in my life.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: They're like, Well, how could you not know what you were doing?
38:04
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, could you say if I was like, hey, January 14th, 2022, what were you doing?
38:10
SPEAKER_01: I'd have to look at my planner and see what was in the week.
38:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I know.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: I was what day of the week was it?
38:17
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
38:17
SPEAKER_00: They were so over the top that it to me it just was ludicrous.
38:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:23
SPEAKER_01: So out of nowhere, they say you're plotting to marry Henry's daughter, Mary I.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, plotting to marry Mary.
38:30
SPEAKER_00: You're plotting to marry Mary.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: I had to when you said plotting to marry, that's why I had to say King Henry VIII's daughter, because it broke it up a bit.
38:37
SPEAKER_01: But weird name.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: And of course, where's Henry VIII?
38:40
SPEAKER_01: Like, nowhere to be found.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: He's off, like hanging out with Catherine Howard somewhere.
38:45
SPEAKER_00: Finding his next wife, gallivanting around on his fat ass whatever.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: Ugly leg.
38:52
SPEAKER_01: His ugly leg.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: Right.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, and in the showtime the Tudors, they kind of show Henry like off in the country, riding with Catherine Howard while Thomas Cromwell's like in prison writing to him.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: But this does actually happen.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: Like he writes to Henry imploring Henry to forgive him.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure Cromwell at this point doesn't even really know what he's asking forgiveness for.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: Just knows he's in the tower.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: He just knows he's in the tower.
39:18
SPEAKER_00: He's in the hot seat.
39:20
SPEAKER_00: The the rest of the privy council, his enemies, the ones who got him arrested, they were very thoughtful about one thing is they knew that he has a legal background and he's a smart, educated man, and he's gotten Henry and everyone else out of so many binds before.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: He's the fixer.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: He's the fixer.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: He's also always been the instigator.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: Like, again, he got Anne arrested and executed.
39:43
SPEAKER_00: Right.
39:43
SPEAKER_00: So they were like, yo, if we got a trial for this guy, he's gonna get himself off.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: He's gonna smart talk all of us and work his way out of this.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: Right.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: So they actually set it up so that he was not allowed a trial.
39:56
SPEAKER_00: That's fucked up.
39:57
SPEAKER_00: The only way he could get out of execution was by Henry personally pardoning him.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: So that was his only option.
40:04
SPEAKER_00: He's like, Well, I gotta get into I gotta get to my BFF's ear again.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: So he's writing to him furiously.
40:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've gotta talk to Henry.
40:11
SPEAKER_00: I have one of the quotes.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: I love this quote.
40:13
SPEAKER_00: Um so, for example, this is one of the letters that he wrote to Henry.
40:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, he said, writ so he he writes this whole letter, and then at the very bottom of the letter, he says, Written at the tower this Wednesday, the last of June, with the heavy heart and trembling hand of your highness's most heavy and most miserable prisoner and poor slave, most gracious prince, I cry for mercy, mercy, mercy.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: And he's begging his best friend, please do not kill me.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: I did nothing wrong.
40:49
SPEAKER_01: And like, even though you're a person in this court who knows that Henry is very temperamental, and you know that he's executed a wife and a queen of England before, you're still thinking there's some like human aspect of him that's gonna release you, who he's given so many titles to, who you're in this again, fraternity, like order of the garter, like you're his most secret of secret, like confidants.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: You think in your heart, like, okay, maybe the Anbolin thing didn't go so well.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: Maybe this Anna Cleaves maybe you know, maybe maybe all of this didn't, you know, work out, but he's my best friend.
41:27
SPEAKER_01: And like, talk about boys.
41:29
SPEAKER_00: Talk about the tables turning though.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he was the one who was always putting someone else in that position.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: The puppet master.
41:35
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: And now he now that he is the one sitting in the tower, like, damn, this is what I did to other people.
41:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if he actually thought that, but I don't know.
41:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean like you're Thomas Moore and you know, yeah, Bishop Fisher and Boleyn, like all these executions that he was behind.
41:52
SPEAKER_00: Right.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: And you have a lot of time to reflect when you're in the tower, so who knows?
41:57
SPEAKER_01: He was there for over a month and he lost all of his titles.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: We talked about how many titles he had on the last episode.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: All he did was accrue titles, like that was his job, because again, we didn't quite know what his job was.
42:09
SPEAKER_01: Administrative work.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, but he you know, he lost his titles, he lost all of his properties, and then finally, July 28th, 1540 arrives.
42:22
SPEAKER_00: So Cromwell has finally accepted he's going to die.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: Henry did receive all of his letters, and while he never responded to them, I think he obviously read them and did have some emotion.
42:34
SPEAKER_00: I hope so.
42:35
SPEAKER_00: Because as we've seen before, he reduced his sentence from a hang, drawn, and quartering to a beheading.
42:42
SPEAKER_00: Hang, drawn, and quartering is the typical sentence for a traitor.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: Right.
42:47
SPEAKER_00: But he is more elite than that.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: The same thing happened to Sir Thomas More.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: That was also supposed to be a hang-drawn and quartering, and then he like, don't you feel like Henry kind of like dangles it in front of them?
42:57
SPEAKER_00: Like he knows what he's gonna do and be like, fine, fine.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: Same with Anne Boleyn.
43:01
SPEAKER_01: It could have been burning.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: Could have been a burning at the last it's like he likes to see them wriggle around in anxiety.
43:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, squirm and knowing that they're gonna have the worst death ever.
43:11
SPEAKER_00: To be like at the last minute, like, okay, we'll just be head you.
43:14
SPEAKER_01: That's awful.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: Which is always does he want them to have relief or is he just fucked up anyway?
43:19
SPEAKER_00: I think he's actually a twisted, sadistic.
43:23
SPEAKER_00: I think he's sadistic.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: Little effer, but a big effer because he's pretty fat.
43:28
SPEAKER_01: And effer heifer.
43:30
SPEAKER_00: Effer heifer.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: Damn it.
43:32
SPEAKER_00: We had so many missed opportunities for the title.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: We're not gonna name the title Effer Heifer for the Henry VIII story.
43:39
SPEAKER_01: Uh but you know, feel free to um like and comment.
43:44
unknown: You're such a dork.
43:47
SPEAKER_00: Okay, this is serious.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: We're at the execution start.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: It's literally the season finale of our executionese execution.
43:53
SPEAKER_00: Take it away, Megan.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm starting?
43:55
SPEAKER_00: Well, you said you were you were leaning up to all that.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: Me?
43:59
SPEAKER_00: Okay, well.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: He he approaches the scaffold.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: Hi, it's Megan.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: It's Megan.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: And this is a public beheading on Tower Hill.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: So again, we've talked about how kind of the people who are more noble get these like pub or private executions, right?
44:20
SPEAKER_01: Yes, there's still a lot of people there, but it's usually within the tower walls.
44:24
SPEAKER_01: But he is one of the public executions, which is like over what, 250 people were executed at Tower Hill.
44:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:31
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna go see it.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna see it and take pictures.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: Once at the scaffold, he of course says all the things that you're supposed to say when you're about to be beheaded.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: Right.
44:39
SPEAKER_00: You thank the king and how gracious he is for taking your head off and yada yada yada.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: And he's a humble servant and he prays for forgiveness, and he's, you know, forever in his dead, and all of this is because he needs to protect his family.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: So if you go up there bashing the king, whole family dies.
45:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's not looking good for your family.
45:02
SPEAKER_00: And while his wife and his two daughters did die, he did have a son who was trying to, you know, make a name for himself.
45:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, he says something else interesting.
45:12
SPEAKER_00: He says, I die in the Catholic faith.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
45:19
SPEAKER_01: Can we talk about that?
45:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: I also think it's very timely we talk about this because when we talk to Dr.
45:26
SPEAKER_01: Owen Emerson, humble brag.
45:28
SPEAKER_01: Um You mean Owen?
45:30
SPEAKER_01: You mean our buddy Owen?
45:32
SPEAKER_01: He we we discussed, you know, the fact that his book of hours is is conserved in all its tradition.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: Like there's no striking out of the Pope's names, there's no notes in the corner to denote like deviations from the Catholic faith.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: It's exactly the same as the one Catherine Varagon has, who's fiercely Catholic, the same one as Anne Boleyn has.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: Like there's no, you know, just like notes as to what the divergences in the faith.
46:02
SPEAKER_00: There's no like little like ha ha lols, like devil faces.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: There's no devil faces or lols.
46:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: And it's just like we were like, is that because he just wanted to preserve this book and keep it as a collectible, or did he actually still kind of believe in Catholicism?
46:17
SPEAKER_01: And maybe the whole reformist stuff was just a way for him to get some political clout or look like he was doing something for the king, or like, you know, what what was all that?
46:27
SPEAKER_01: Because technically he did die in the traditional Catholic faith, and I think that's kind of odd, or maybe he was just trying to pease the king at the end because of that.
46:37
SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
46:38
SPEAKER_00: Or some think that it was a sarcastic or a humorous remarkable.
46:42
SPEAKER_01: He's making a funny.
46:43
SPEAKER_00: I read several things where like that he said in sarcasm, or that he said in humor.
46:48
SPEAKER_00: But if you do that, yeah, if you're seconds away from dying, is that what you're really gonna be remembered as?
46:55
SPEAKER_00: Or and when your son is standing there, and you're praying for your salvation at that point, and he's praying to Jesus and he's praying to God, right?
47:03
SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden, like be like, oh, let me just throw in a little joke about Catholicism while I'm at it.
47:08
SPEAKER_01: This isn't stand-up comedy of the 1990s, you know what I mean?
47:11
SPEAKER_00: We've always said we're not historians, but my historianistic self was to really like disagree with that.
47:19
SPEAKER_00: I don't think it was in humor or sarcasm.
47:22
SPEAKER_00: Others think that it was again to protect his family, his son.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: They thought it was just the thing he was supposed to say, but that just strikes out the 30,000 plus monasteries he took out, all the people he had executed, all the all the priests he had taken out, all of the relics, the completely deterioration of the Catholicism in England.
47:46
SPEAKER_00: Like, what the hell?
47:47
SPEAKER_00: It looks very hypocritical.
47:49
SPEAKER_00: He's he's one of the most like two-faced men I can ever imagine.
47:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:54
SPEAKER_00: Again, going back to what I was saying at the beginning, like he supports that, but then he doesn't.
47:59
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
47:59
SPEAKER_00: He wants Amblin to up come up and then he takes her down.
48:03
SPEAKER_00: He agrees with Cardinal Woolsey, and he's his best friend, and then he takes on the Catholic Church, and now he's like, I'm a Catholic.
48:11
SPEAKER_00: I I die in the Catholic faith.
48:13
SPEAKER_00: That's such a strong statement to make before you die.
48:16
SPEAKER_01: I agree.
48:17
SPEAKER_00: I don't think it was in humor or sarcasm, but prove me wrong.
48:19
SPEAKER_00: I think I want to know more about this.
48:21
SPEAKER_01: I think most of what he did was a very political game, and you made the comparison earlier to like Sir Thomas More.
48:28
SPEAKER_01: And Sir Thomas More is someone who very much wanted to die a Catholic and die a Catholic martyr and refused to give in to anything you know other than the Catholic faith.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: So it's like that's someone who stood by their beliefs.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: Whereas someone, again, like Thomas Cromwell, who isn't necessarily a villain but had a lot of ambition, is really trying to, no matter what, just be a servant to Henry.
48:52
SPEAKER_01: So he doesn't know where Henry is half the time in terms of his wives and beliefs and this and that.
48:59
SPEAKER_01: So he's just trying to say something that he thinks, I guess Henry will like this.
49:03
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I think he said at the end is like, well, I guess Henry's kind of Catholic now, so I die in the tradition of the Catholic faith.
49:11
SPEAKER_01: Like, whatever it is that's gonna people please Henry, I think that's what he's trying to do.
49:15
SPEAKER_00: You know what?
49:16
SPEAKER_00: One one thing I haven't dived into, and maybe this is gonna be our answer.
49:21
SPEAKER_00: I want to read Dr.
49:22
SPEAKER_00: Tracy Borman's biography on Thomas Cromwell.
49:25
SPEAKER_00: That would be very eye-opening.
49:26
SPEAKER_00: Because she is a biographer on him.
49:28
SPEAKER_00: And that I feel like historians kind of latch on to a specific person, and Thomas Cromwell is is yeah, her her specialty, I want to say.
49:38
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we'll meet her in later.
49:39
SPEAKER_00: I know.
49:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, okay, let's not make fools of ourselves.
49:42
SPEAKER_00: Let's let's jump ahead all the chapters and get to that point.
49:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay, no, we'll no, no, no.
49:47
SPEAKER_00: We'll read the book.
49:48
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
49:48
SPEAKER_00: See if the answer's in that.
49:50
SPEAKER_00: If it's not in that, let's ask her and we'll meet her in person and ask her why was Cromwell either a sarcastic little asshole at the end or a complete two-faced hypocritical bastard?
50:01
SPEAKER_00: That's what we should do.
50:03
SPEAKER_00: Which way, which way are we going?
50:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, hi, Tracy Boardman, and then go into that exact question.
50:07
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
50:07
SPEAKER_00: Okay, we'll write that down.
50:09
SPEAKER_00: Secretary, thank you.
50:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, good job.
50:12
SPEAKER_00: There's another controversy about his execution.
50:14
SPEAKER_00: So there's the the whole Catholic statement.
50:16
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
50:17
SPEAKER_00: Some people say it was a smooth one blow of the axe.
50:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, this one kills me.
50:22
SPEAKER_00: Others say there was three blows.
50:25
SPEAKER_01: Or at least three.
50:26
SPEAKER_01: At least three.
50:28
SPEAKER_01: So we don't know if it was quite botched or not.
50:31
SPEAKER_01: There are a lot of counts, and we always reference Showtime's The Tutors.
50:35
SPEAKER_00: Oh god, that you just lost every round of credibility we've gained over there.
50:39
SPEAKER_01: No, I'm just saying there's a lot of like modern renditions that show wine for this.
50:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is the good part.
50:45
SPEAKER_01: Pour me some wine, please.
50:47
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
50:49
SPEAKER_01: Whoa, heavy pour.
50:51
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be fun.
50:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, so there's a lot of renditions that say that a lot of his enemies in the Privy Council got the executioner drunk the night before, like sought him out.
51:03
SPEAKER_01: We've talked about the role of an executioner in a village or in a town.
51:07
SPEAKER_01: You know, maybe they kind of lured him over, gave him some drinks, were like, oh, you got a big day ahead of you tomorrow, buddy.
51:13
SPEAKER_01: Like a lot of people think he might have been drunk at the time and literally kind of swung his axe around and caught his shoulders.
51:20
SPEAKER_01: Like, who knows exactly where he hit.
51:23
SPEAKER_01: But a lot of people have uh, you know, had accounts that said it took several blows of the axe.
51:30
SPEAKER_00: Like the phrase I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.
51:33
SPEAKER_00: That's that applies.
51:35
SPEAKER_00: I I don't care how much animosity you had towards someone, right?
51:39
SPEAKER_00: You don't strive and orchestrate a botched execution of like why do you want to witness that?
51:47
SPEAKER_01: Even if you want this guy to have a painful end, like you want to be there to see all that bloodshed.
51:53
SPEAKER_01: That is gross, man.
51:55
SPEAKER_01: There's something wrong with you.
51:56
SPEAKER_01: Speaking of sadistic Henry VIII, like he has sadistic.
51:59
SPEAKER_00: They were all messed up, they were all in their own way messed up.
52:02
SPEAKER_00: Right.
52:03
SPEAKER_00: So that's one version of it that it was botched, it took at least several blows, and the executioner was drunk.
52:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, others What was his name?
52:11
SPEAKER_01: Gir Gera?
52:11
SPEAKER_00: Go.
52:12
SPEAKER_01: Goyera.
52:13
SPEAKER_01: Like the cheese.
52:15
SPEAKER_01: Gouda?
52:16
SPEAKER_01: Gouda his name was Gouda.
52:18
SPEAKER_01: We're not backing down from that one.
52:20
SPEAKER_00: You heard it here.
52:21
SPEAKER_00: I heard it here.
52:22
SPEAKER_00: Gouda was drunk.
52:24
SPEAKER_00: Damn it, Tracy Morto's.
52:26
SPEAKER_01: It took three blows to kill Thomas Brown.
52:29
SPEAKER_01: We got that from Showtime the Tutors.
52:31
SPEAKER_01: Quote us.
52:32
SPEAKER_01: Put it on a mug.
52:33
SPEAKER_01: So after all is said and done, they put his head on a spike on London Bridge, as is tradition at this point, right?
52:42
SPEAKER_01: And it was said that that night that he was executed, there were some people that were sorrowful, but many people rejoiced.
52:49
SPEAKER_01: Some people from the Privy Council even said it came seven years too late, which is pretty gruesome.
52:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, and unfortunately, well fortunately, I suppose, Henry also said he regretted it.
53:04
SPEAKER_01: Henry VIII himself said that he regretted it, and he blamed the ministers involved.
53:10
SPEAKER_01: He said that they had so many false accusations against Cromwell.
53:15
SPEAKER_01: Zero accountability.
53:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:16
SPEAKER_01: Like ran away with Catherine Howard somewhere and was like, oh, I, you know, I didn't really want that to happen.
53:23
SPEAKER_01: Which they manipulated me.
53:24
SPEAKER_01: Did we actually mention that the day of his execution?
53:28
SPEAKER_01: Mention it now.
53:29
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
53:29
SPEAKER_01: Do it.
53:30
SPEAKER_01: Thomas' execution, Thomas Cromwell's execution, was also the day Henry VIII married Catherine Howard, wife number five.
53:38
SPEAKER_00: Why does he do this?
53:40
SPEAKER_01: He's so he's I feel like he feels like Do you know he and I are the same horoscope science?
53:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
53:49
SPEAKER_00: I feel like he's just trying to cause the drama.
53:53
SPEAKER_00: Like he's intentional.
53:56
SPEAKER_00: I think he is the drama.
53:58
SPEAKER_00: You cannot tell me that a thought did not cross his mind.
54:01
SPEAKER_00: Hmm, it's just like bad taste to get married the same day that my body executing.
54:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:07
SPEAKER_00: Oh geez, Henry.
54:09
SPEAKER_00: Like poor taste.
54:11
SPEAKER_00: Poor taste.
54:12
SPEAKER_00: Poor yeah.
54:13
SPEAKER_00: Tacky.
54:13
SPEAKER_01: You tacky.
54:14
SPEAKER_01: You tacky.
54:15
SPEAKER_00: And I hate and I hate you.
54:17
SPEAKER_01: So read the room, Henry.
54:19
SPEAKER_01: Uh, yeah.
54:20
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know who's attending what.
54:22
SPEAKER_00: Like, if you're oh shit, guys, we got the execution.
54:27
SPEAKER_00: We gotta go straight, get change, get out of our morning clothes quick, maybe do a quick two a quick brush up.
54:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe it was one of those weddings where like ceremonies in the morning.
54:37
SPEAKER_01: So, like ceremonies at 10 a.m.
54:38
SPEAKER_01: at this church, and then quick break for everyone to do their photography and bullshit before the reception.
54:45
SPEAKER_00: Their Hans Holbein portraits.
54:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then even opposite.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: I think execution in the morning.
54:49
SPEAKER_01: Well, no, then you attend the execution during the break between ceremony and reception.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: Oh, like while they're getting their portrait done.
54:57
SPEAKER_00: You're like quick execution over here.
54:58
SPEAKER_01: Quick execution over here, and then cocktail hour starts at 4 p.m.
55:01
SPEAKER_01: on Tower Green.
55:03
SPEAKER_00: Reasonable.
55:04
SPEAKER_01: Dinner or what is it?
55:05
SPEAKER_01: Dancing and drinks to follow.
55:07
SPEAKER_00: Here's the thing though, he's executing his right-hand man.
55:09
SPEAKER_00: Who's there orchestrating that?
55:11
SPEAKER_00: Who's the Who's the wedding planner?
55:12
SPEAKER_01: Who's the event planner?
55:14
SPEAKER_01: Who's gonna be around making sure the flowers look nice and the candles are all lit, the buffet is all ready to go?
55:21
SPEAKER_00: You're ridiculous.
55:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, I do think though, in the end, the legacy that Thomas Cromwell created for himself started from the bottom, he pushed his way to the top.
55:31
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
55:32
SPEAKER_00: He was uh a lawyer, a statesman, a politician, the right-hand man of King Henry VIII, the driver of the Reformation, taking down the monasteries, bringing up Anne Boleyn, taking out Ambolyn, bringing up Jane Seymour, watching her die, watching her die, bringing in Anne of Cleves, the ups and downs of Thomas Cromwell's life.
55:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:57
SPEAKER_00: Like disturbing, but a legacy.
56:00
SPEAKER_01: Professional fixer and matchmaker, some might say.
56:03
SPEAKER_00: And event planner.
56:04
SPEAKER_01: Oh, and don't forget, event planner.
56:07
SPEAKER_01: Who planned the last three weddings?
56:08
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
56:10
SPEAKER_00: There is not a tutor history, like movie, book, story, show that does not have Thomas Cromwell in the middle of it.
56:18
SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
56:19
SPEAKER_01: He's a very important storyline in this era.
56:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course, King Henry VIII and his six wives are important.
56:26
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
56:26
SPEAKER_00: Cromwell's the guy on the side who's always gonna be there and got, you know, taken out in the end.
56:32
SPEAKER_01: I agree.
56:33
SPEAKER_01: And I like that you um recently posted about, you know, the different renditions of Thomas Cromwell over time, and you know, how it's a very much disputed whether he's a villain or whether he was just full of ambition, you know, or maybe he was coming from a true place and just wrong place, wrong time, kind of thing.
56:50
SPEAKER_00: Or he was just like the yes man, like the follower.
56:53
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
56:53
SPEAKER_00: I don't care what I actually believe in, but whatever is gonna make me successful.
56:59
SPEAKER_01: And Henry happy.
57:00
SPEAKER_00: And Henry.
57:01
SPEAKER_01: And Henry said he had no better servant than Cromwell.
57:04
SPEAKER_00: And he regretted his execution.
57:06
SPEAKER_01: He did.
57:06
SPEAKER_00: He also regretted Thomas More.
57:09
SPEAKER_00: And probably a few others.
57:10
SPEAKER_00: Maybe a couple others.
57:12
SPEAKER_00: In the end, Henry's the wish-washy one.
57:15
SPEAKER_01: Oh, he's the monster.
57:17
SPEAKER_00: This has been a very anti-Henry.
57:20
SPEAKER_01: He's an anti-hero.
57:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
57:23
SPEAKER_01: Are we ever gonna have a pro-Henry talk?
57:26
SPEAKER_01: Probably not.
57:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean we we like to evaluate all points of view.
57:30
SPEAKER_00: We'll look at different perspectives, but I think in the end, what we're landing on is Henry is the problem.
57:36
SPEAKER_00: Wife killer.
57:37
SPEAKER_00: Wife killer.
57:38
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
57:39
SPEAKER_00: He's the problem.
57:40
SPEAKER_00: And everyone who just crossed paths with him was a victim.
57:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:45
SPEAKER_01: You didn't want to be too close or too far from Henry VIII, but it was hard to find that middle ground for sure.
57:51
unknown: Wow.
57:52
SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth, it's our season finale.
57:54
SPEAKER_00: Well done.
57:54
SPEAKER_00: See a little cheers.
57:58
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for staying sticking with us.
58:00
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.
58:01
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for sticking with us.
58:02
SPEAKER_01: And guess what?
58:03
SPEAKER_01: Season five, we're gonna kick off in London.
58:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I like this idea.
58:08
SPEAKER_01: See you there.
58:09
SPEAKER_01: We're quite excited.
58:10
SPEAKER_01: If you have any recommendations between now and then, drop us a line.
58:15
SPEAKER_00: Like, comment, review, follow.
58:20
SPEAKER_00: What are all the things?
58:20
SPEAKER_00: TinkTok, Twitter, threads, all.
58:22
SPEAKER_00: Threads, I got an account, I don't know how to use it.
58:25
SPEAKER_01: I did one thread, I'm pretty proud of myself.
58:26
SPEAKER_00: Good job.
58:27
SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth, any final words?
58:30
SPEAKER_01: Not until season five in London, baby.