Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Guest Host: Dafna Lender interviewing Karen Buckwalter: Clinical Use of the Adult Attachment Interview

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Guest Host: Dafna Lender interviewing Karen Buckwalter: Clinical Use of the Adult Attachment Interview · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the special guest host series of The Trauma
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Therapist podcast, where I'm going to be handing over the
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: you in all the while keeping the heart of this
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: podcast alive. So sit back and enjoy.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Hey everyone, my name is Dosn Alender and I am
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  Speaker 2: an attachment focused therapist and trainer and I'm here today
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  Speaker 2: with the lovely Karen Doyle Buckwalter, who is an expert
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  Speaker 2: on the clinical use of the adult attachment interview and
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to chat with her today. Karen, Welcome. I'm
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: so happy to be with you.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you.
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  Speaker 4: I'm so happy to be here and have the opportunity
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  Speaker 4: to talk about one of my favorite subjects.
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  Speaker 2: Awesome, one of your favorite subjects of which you have money.
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  Speaker 2: So I want to just introduce you, in my mind,
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  Speaker 2: the expert on the clinical use of all things attachment theory.
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  Speaker 2: And one of the things that I want to say
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  Speaker 2: about you is that for thirty years you actually had the.
• 1:18
  Speaker 5: Live experiment going of trying to create an attachment focused
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  Speaker 5: treatment program for children at the organization you worked at
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  Speaker 5: Chaddock for so many years, for twenty seven years, and
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  Speaker 5: you had so much influence on the creating an environment
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  Speaker 5: that was attachment focused.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that you were able to impact this
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  Speaker 2: organization and have been teaching this for so long that
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  Speaker 2: I literally I think bow down at your footsteps.
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  Speaker 6: That is the real deal. That is the real deal.
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  Speaker 2: But in addition, you read every single book on attachment
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  Speaker 2: and interviewed every single person who's alive who's a researcher,
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  Speaker 2: a theorist in attachment because of.
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  Speaker 6: The podcast that was.
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  Speaker 2: So so steminal for so many therapists called attachment theory
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  Speaker 2: and action, and so you're just what's housed in between
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  Speaker 2: your brain.
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  Speaker 6: I just bopped down.
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  Speaker 3: Well, thank you, thank you very much.
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  Speaker 4: And you know, it was an exciting partnership with Chadock
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  Speaker 4: those thirty years, many exciting things happening and learning and
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  Speaker 4: just constantly scanning research and what was going on with
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  Speaker 4: clinical models in the field and constantly looking at like
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  Speaker 4: what could we do to be better? And it truly
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  Speaker 4: was an exciting time.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so all the things you really and you
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  Speaker 2: in Dash knows you are deeply trained in a lot
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  Speaker 2: of things. The adult attachment interview really seized your attention
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  Speaker 2: imagination and you got deeply trained in it. And why
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  Speaker 2: did you pick that path?
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  Speaker 4: Well, I when we were moving this direction at Chaddock,
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  Speaker 4: and so we had been practicing at that time in
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  Speaker 4: an attachment based model. We were using therapy, we were
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  Speaker 4: using diatic developmental psychotherapy, trying to use a lot.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: Of the tools at our disposal.
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  Speaker 4: And one of the things that I felt perplexed by
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  Speaker 4: was we would have parents who were very committed. They
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: went through a lot of trouble to get their child
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: to Chaddock, and they were committed financially significantly.
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  Speaker 3: Often they were motivated.
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  Speaker 4: These were motivated people to try to get their child
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  Speaker 4: health and to try to figure out, you know, what
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  Speaker 4: does our family need. And so what I was seeing, though,
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  Speaker 4: was as motivated and committed as they were, some of
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  Speaker 4: the parents just could not execute I guess I would
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  Speaker 4: say therapeutic parenting or parenting in the way that we
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  Speaker 4: thought would help the child and the family system to
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  Speaker 4: function better. And so I became very curious about that, Like,
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  Speaker 4: what does it mean when somebody is so committed to
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  Speaker 4: doing something differently and then when the time comes to
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  Speaker 4: do it differently, they absolutely can't like.
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  Speaker 3: What causes that?
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  Speaker 4: And yeah, yeah, what what's blocking them? What is the
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  Speaker 4: barrier to them doing it? Like they read all the
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  Speaker 4: books and they you know, had met with us, and
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  Speaker 4: you know, they were in therapy sessions, so they were
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  Speaker 4: seeing different ways of interacting with their children. But when
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  Speaker 4: it came to the moment to be able to do
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  Speaker 4: some of those things on their own, something was preventing
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  Speaker 4: them from being able to do that.
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  Speaker 3: And I wanted to know what it.
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  Speaker 2: Was until you stumbled upon the Adult Detachment Interview and
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  Speaker 2: how the Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, So at the time, I was also Karen Purvis
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  Speaker 4: was one of we were also doing tbr I at Chaddock,
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  Speaker 4: and Karen Purvis had visited Chaddock numerous times, and she said, well,
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  Speaker 4: what I think you need is you need to be
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  Speaker 4: using the adult Attachment Interview with the caregivers of the
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  Speaker 4: children that are coming into Chadock. And I think that
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  Speaker 4: is going to give you a window into understanding them
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  Speaker 4: in a deeper way that will help you. Because they
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  Speaker 4: had been using the Adult Attachment Interview at her camp.
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  Speaker 4: And you know, this was before tbr I really had
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  Speaker 4: a name.
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  Speaker 3: Or anything like that.
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  Speaker 4: It was just sort of this camp where they were
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  Speaker 4: having adopted kids come and in their lab they did
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  Speaker 4: AAIs with all the parents, and she thought that that
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  Speaker 4: was really key to what they were doing, and so
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  Speaker 4: off I went, you know, look it up and registered
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  Speaker 4: to go to the training.
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  Speaker 3: It's a two week institute.
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  Speaker 4: Sometimes they call it a AI boot camp because it
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  Speaker 4: really is vigorous, rigorous. You go to class all day
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  Speaker 4: and then you code interviews all night and when you
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  Speaker 4: get back and I remember calling her about four or
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  Speaker 4: five days in and saying, like, what.
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  Speaker 3: Why did you send me to this?
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  Speaker 4: Like I just it was very detailed about a coding system,
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  Speaker 4: and I was really having trouble like wrapping my head.
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  Speaker 3: Around how is this going to help me.
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  Speaker 4: In therapy with these parents?
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  Speaker 3: And there's not.
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  Speaker 4: They don't really teach clinical application in it either, and
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  Speaker 4: so there was a part of me that I was
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  Speaker 4: kind of frustrated at a little angry, like what am
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  Speaker 4: I doing here? I don't typically do well with a
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  Speaker 4: lot of detail and munitions. It's really suffering DOCNA.
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  Speaker 6: That's I believe you.
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  Speaker 2: But that was the genesis for you know, the future
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  Speaker 2: of how you use this. But for people who may
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  Speaker 2: not be familiar, tell us what is the adult Attachment interview.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's a list of questions about fifteen questions.
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  Speaker 4: There's follow up probes and things like that to some
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  Speaker 4: of the questions. So sometimes, you know, people will say
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  Speaker 4: it's like twenty questions or whatever. But basically what it is,
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  Speaker 4: it is asking about a person's history of how they
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  Speaker 4: were parented. And through the course of asking these very
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  Speaker 4: specific questions and then transcribing the interview from a recording,
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  Speaker 4: there is a coding system that is then applied to
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  Speaker 4: this transcription of the recording of the AAI that categorizes
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  Speaker 4: people into attachment classifications that directly relate to what that
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  Speaker 4: person's baby would be in the strange situation.
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  Speaker 6: Okay, gosh, now there's a lot there.
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  Speaker 2: So before we even talk about the corresponding classification of
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  Speaker 2: that adults baby in the strange situation, the fifteen questions
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  Speaker 2: or however money is an interview that a therapist or
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  Speaker 2: a researcher.
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  Speaker 6: Asks the.
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  Speaker 2: Participant live right, yes, and then it's recorded and transcribed
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  Speaker 2: and then there's a coding system. But what is the
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  Speaker 2: actual mechanism? Can you say, how is it that the
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  Speaker 2: way a person responds to the questions reveals their attachment classification.
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  Speaker 4: Yes, so to say it sort of big picture, it's
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  Speaker 4: based on the level of coherence that they have in
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  Speaker 4: how they're responding to the interview with you. So in
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  Speaker 4: a sense like this is a story of their relationship
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  Speaker 4: with their parents, and then it also goes into any
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  Speaker 4: losses by death of people they were close to and
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  Speaker 4: traumatic events they've experienced, and so they're giving you a
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  Speaker 4: story of this history. And many people, if they study
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  Speaker 4: attachment theory and attachment work, are familiar that we're a
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  Speaker 4: coherent autobiographical narrative is linked to you know, being an
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  Speaker 4: emotionally and psychologically healthy person as an adult, and so
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  Speaker 4: we're looking for the coherence of what they're telling us,
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  Speaker 4: is the bottom line. And then we have some very
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  Speaker 4: specific ways that we measure coherence in the interview.
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  Speaker 2: Right coherence, And so that's really abstract, but actually the
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  Speaker 2: adult attachment interview has these what these linguistic features Bryce's maxims.
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  Speaker 2: Can you say a little bit and give us a
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  Speaker 2: couple of examples about Gryce's maxims?
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  Speaker 4: Yes, yes, Well, I think in terms of starting to
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  Speaker 4: think that way, we have we have to remember that
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  Speaker 4: the AAI is coded, as you said, linguistically, So it's
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  Speaker 4: how you say these things, not what you say right,
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  Speaker 4: And so that's a really different way of thinking. That's
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  Speaker 4: not how we like think when we're normally in a
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  Speaker 4: clinical situation with someone. So you could have like a
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  Speaker 4: really difficult past and a very horrific story that you're telling,
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  Speaker 4: but if you can stay coherent while you're telling it,
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  Speaker 4: then you could still at the very least be earned secure.
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  Speaker 4: On the Adult Attachment Interview, so it's it's not the.
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  Speaker 3: Content in the way we normally think of it.
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  Speaker 4: But the how you say it and just tying that
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  Speaker 4: to linguistics in case somebody was like wondering what that means.
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  Speaker 4: So that's what we mean by we're scoring it linguistically.
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  Speaker 4: So when Mary Naine, who with her colleagues developed the
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  Speaker 4: Adult Attachment Interview, she was hearing certain patterns that were
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  Speaker 4: coming from people in terms of how they were responding
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  Speaker 4: to these questions. People that do this kind of research,
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  Speaker 4: they're brilliant at recognizing patterns. Right with babies in the
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  Speaker 4: strange situation or whatever they're doing, they're looking for patterning.
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  Speaker 4: So and she she herself had a linguistic background, and
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  Speaker 4: she came to realize that there were four things Gryce's
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  Speaker 4: maxims that you mentioned that delineated you know, who fit
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  Speaker 4: into what category. So the first maxim and they're called
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  Speaker 4: Grice because they're named after the linguistic person that created them.
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  Speaker 4: Quality be truthful and have evidence for what you say.
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  Speaker 4: And quantity be succinct yet complete. Relation be relevant to
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  Speaker 4: the topic, and manner be clear and orderly. And so
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  Speaker 4: those are the maxims for coherent collaborative conversation. And so
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  Speaker 4: we sort of look at the AAI as like a conversation.
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  Speaker 4: It's a structured conversation, but it is a conversation. And
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  Speaker 4: so yeah, so I can give you know, some examples
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  Speaker 4: of those, but is there anything else you wanted to
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  Speaker 4: ask before I do that?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, why don't you give an example, just a classic
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  Speaker 2: example of what would be you know, one of the
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  Speaker 2: maxims that's that can illustrate it whether it's coherent.
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  Speaker 3: Or right right right.
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  Speaker 4: So one of the things that we have in the
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  Speaker 4: beginning of the AAI is we ask for five adjectives
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  Speaker 4: that describe your childhood relationship with your parents, you know,
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  Speaker 4: with your mother or your father or you know, whoever
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  Speaker 4: is identified as the people who raised you, And when
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  Speaker 4: they give those five adjectives, we then go back and say,
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  Speaker 4: could you give a specific incident or an.
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  Speaker 3: Example of why you chose that adjective.
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  Speaker 4: So if the person you know chooses you know, loving
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  Speaker 4: and reliable, and let's just say that was two of
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  Speaker 4: the five, I'm going to go back and I'm going
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  Speaker 4: to ask them, can you give me a specific incident?
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  Speaker 4: And if a person can't, they might they might say, well,
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  Speaker 4: for loving, I don't know, like it's really hard to say,
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  Speaker 4: like I just felt like she loved me.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, that's then that would be.
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  Speaker 4: A violation of quality because they're not the first one
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  Speaker 4: be truthful and to have evidence for what you say.
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  Speaker 4: That's not really convincing evidence for what they're saying. And
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  Speaker 4: so we would go through these different question these different
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  Speaker 4: adjectives that they gave us and see if they had
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  Speaker 4: evidence for each adjective that they gave us, or you know,
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  Speaker 4: maybe somewhere in the interview we ask a question about,
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  Speaker 4: you know, losses or something and they go completely off
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  Speaker 4: on a tangent that has nothing to do with losses.
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  Speaker 3: You know.
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  Speaker 4: Remember these we're asking very specific questions, So then we
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  Speaker 4: might see a violation of relation. They're there like they're
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  Speaker 4: they're saying stuff that has nothing to do with what
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  Speaker 4: we're talking about, so we in in the different classifications.
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  Speaker 4: There tends to be certain violations in each of these,
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  Speaker 4: Like for example, if somebody is preoccupied one of the
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  Speaker 4: classifications in the AAI, they tend to violate man, it's
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  Speaker 4: hard to follow what they're saying. It's kind of going
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  Speaker 4: on and on. They also would violate relation, like wait
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: a minute, like where what are they even talking about?
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  Speaker 4: Like you find yourself feeling like wait, what did I
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  Speaker 4: even ask them?
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  Speaker 3: Because it's not staying.
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  Speaker 4: They violate quantity because the interview is so long, it
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: just goes on and on and on versus somebody who
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: is dismissing on the adult attachment interview. Their answers tend
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  Speaker 4: to be like short and brief, and they're almost they're
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  Speaker 4: violating quantity the maximum planting.
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  Speaker 3: The other direction like they're kind of not telling me enough,
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  Speaker 3: Like I.
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: Feel like they're holding out on me, Like you know,
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  Speaker 4: they're giving me these like one word answers or really
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  Speaker 4: short answers say these different maxims and whether or not
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  Speaker 4: they're violated, which sounds kind of funny because it feels
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  Speaker 4: like we're talking about them backwards.
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  Speaker 3: But the way we think about it when.
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  Speaker 4: We go into an adult attachment interview is assume the
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  Speaker 4: person is secure until proven otherwise, and one they're proven otherwise,
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  Speaker 4: part of the way they prove otherwise is violating these maxims.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, well, so the interview is something that might take
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: an hour, an hour and quarter.
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  Speaker 6: But how is it that if a person.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: Isn't trained in coding the AI and isn't doing it
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: for research? How is it useful? How have you found
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: it useful? You've developed a whole course on it, so
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  Speaker 2: you definitely have shown it to be very useful and
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: popular the using this structured interview for planning, you know,
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: clinical treatment, or for the relationship that you developed with
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: the client.
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  Speaker 4: Yes, yes, so, I mean I would say, first at
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  Speaker 4: a macro level, big picture level. One of the things
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: is so beautiful about this interview and this assessment is
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: it allows someone to tell a story in a way
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: that it's never been told before. So that right there
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: is really significant because you can listen to this interview
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  Speaker 4: clinically and you're hearing a story that's just it's been
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: pulled from this person. Mary Maine said it would the
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: AAI would surprise the unconscious. So I often feel like
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: when they're responding to me in the adult attachment interview,
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: and this is really important clinically what I'm going to say,
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: they're telling me essential important information that they could not
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: tell me otherwise.
• 17:48
  Speaker 6: But they could not tell you otherwise.
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: That's really important, yes, because and even within the interview
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: they may not almost even be aware that they're telling
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: me it. But because I have this very specific way
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: of understanding the interview and listening to the interview that's
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: a different way than I would typically listen, it does
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: reveal things that are information and an understanding that can't
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: be obtained in any other way.
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  Speaker 3: So that's like kind of like the big picture part
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  Speaker 3: of it. And then in terms of more micro and
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: some of.
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: What we talk about in the course is, you know,
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: listening and understanding Grace's maxims and some of the other
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: hallmarks of each of these classifications. I think that knowing
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: some of those. For example, we have a word that
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: we call in the coding system derogation and derogating the
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: attachment relationship, and somebody that is I guess we didn't
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: go over all four classifications, but we have secure, autonomous,
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: and we dismissing, and we have preoccupied, and then we
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: have disorganized, which would be unresolved with regard to loss
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: for the adult classifications, and then they correspond to you know,
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: the classifications in the strange situation.
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: For a baby.
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: And so I think that you can understand some of
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: the important things to listen to about each of these classifications,
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: and that will give you insight into the person's classification,
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: but not even so much that like, I don't want
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: anyone to think they can take this course and then
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: that I give and then say, oh, you're dismissing, or
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: you're this, or you're that. I think what's more important
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: is the story that comes out and the very specific
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: things someone tells you that are consistent or inconsistent with
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: what you knew before, and then you can use pieces
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: of that story clinically and understand that person in a
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: different way. The thing about the adult attachment interview is
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: it's been used to Latin research, and researchers look for
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: sameness like they're wanting to put someone in a box.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: We look for nuance.
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: And subtle differences in people, so we don't need to
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: be able to put them in a box, but we
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: need to tease out the nuance and the subtle differences
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: of their story that are important for us to understand
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: in a deep way, right right.
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and the AAI lets us do.
• 20:36
  Speaker 6: That, yes, yeah.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: And so just to wrap up, I think one of
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: the things that you've always told me, which I use
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: it to some degree a little modified, is the importance
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: of how much empathy you develop or some a parent
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: when it's their child who's ostensibly coming into treatment.
• 20:57
  Speaker 6: Right, you want to work with a parent.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: And child together, And so when you are able to
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: understand their history in this really really rich way, have
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: you start to feel differently about them, you feel very
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: close to them.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: You absolutely do.
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: And I think that you know, for listeners who work
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: with children and adults, it's it's it's easy to have
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: compassion for children, and sometimes we become frustrated with the
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: parents that we're working with, like, come on, you're the
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: grown up, you know, get with it here. And but
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: the important thing to remember is that we have if
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: we have a parent and we have a child, if
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: the child has a history of trauma and attachment disruptions,
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: we might be thinking, oh, there's just this wounded baby
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: inside this child, but there's often also.
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: A wounded baby inside the adult.
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: And when we can understand the story of their own
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: wounds and hold both of those stories, hold the story
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: of the child and hold the story of the parent
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: with equal compassion and empathy. I mean that doesn't mean
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: that we don't recognize that the child does not have
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: the same power as the adult or whatever, but having
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: compassion and empathy.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: For both sides of the story, it changes everything.
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: It changes all the moves that I make in a
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: therapy session holding that.
• 22:24
  Speaker 6: Wow.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: Okay, well I think we should end with that note
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: of remembering that if you hold the parent's story, then
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: it changes all the moves that you make in your
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: clinical decision making and the attitude that you take to
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: make it so.
• 22:43
  Speaker 6: Much richer of a therapy process. Yeah, it includes the
• 22:49
  Speaker 6: parents so powerfully. Yeah, and that's why I love I
• 22:53
  Speaker 6: love what you're doing so much.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: Karen.
• 22:56
  Speaker 6: Thanks, I really appreciate you.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: And yeah, check out Karen's training on the clinical use
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: of the adult detachment interview.
• 23:05
  Speaker 6: Where can they find you?
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: Still for My website is Karendoyle Buckwalter dot com. And
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: then my workshops are if you search me plus event right,
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: that's where you will see my AAI workshops. I have
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: one coming up in May and one in September. I
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: usually do a spring and a fall one, so yeah,
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: that would be where they could find those.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Okay, thank you so much, Karen Doyle Bluckwelter. It's been
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: wonderful to hear about.
• 23:35
  Speaker 6: This and your work.
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. It's been wonderful
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: to talk about this.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: The Dom