Latest / The Knife: A True Crime Podcast / Escape from Colorado

Transcript

Escape from Colorado · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: It's around nine o'clock. I believe at night we hear
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: the garage opening, and my son hears it, we freak out. Honestly,
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: I didn't tell my sonus, but I thought that was it.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: I was like, he's gonna, you know, hurt us, Like
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: this is it?
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Knife I'm Hannah Smith. I'm Patia Eton,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: and this week we'll speak with a woman named Tony Nova.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: In twenty twenty, Tony was living in San Diego when
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: she met a man and quickly fell in love. Like
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: so many people experienced during COVID, her relationship timeline escalated
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: since she and her boyfriend seemingly spent every waking moment
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: together as the world shut down around them. Tony hoped
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: that this would be the start to a long, beautiful
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: lifetime together. Instead, it morphed into a dangerous nightmare. She
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: had always avoided dating men who seemed angry or violent,
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: but somehow she found herself trapped in a dire situation
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: thousands of miles from friends and family. Tony fought to
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: protect herself and her children. Now, Tony is sharing her
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: story in the hopes that she can offer insight to
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: others who might find themselves in a similar situation. This
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: conversation with Tony happened on February fifteenth, twenty twenty five.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: Let's get into the interview. Tony, thank you so much
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: for speaking with us today. Do you want to go
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: ahead and just start with a little introduction.
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: Yes, and thank you for having me. I'm Tony.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: I'm a mother of two and I share my story
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: after surviving domestic violence. I recently became a single mother
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: after leaving my expolls.
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: So first, you know, we'd love to start off with
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: if you could tell us a little bit about your
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: upbringing where you're from.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was born in Virginia and I would
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: live there until I was about I want to say three,
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: and moved to Delaware for about a year, and then
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: after that I had moved to Philadelphia and that's when
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: I was placed in foster care with my siblings. So
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: we were placed in foster care up until about age eleven.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Me and my younger sister were adopted together. And then
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: I have five brothers who none were adopted, So I
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: grew up in foster care. I was adopted you know,
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: when I think of my upbringing, I think of a
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: lot of trauma and trying to survive, and I think
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: that molded, unfortunately the person I am today, and good
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: ways and bad ways.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: When you were a kid, when you like thought about
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: your life for your future, do you remember, like what
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: kind of hopes and dreams that you had.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: I actually only just wanted a family. I always wanted
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: a mom. I had this thing where I just wanted
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: a mom that loved me. It was all about me.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Those are the little things I would, you know, daydream
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: about fantasize that was an important thing. It wasn't about
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: what I wanted to be when I grew up. It
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: was about having a family. And then as I got older,
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: teenage years, it was actually me the idea of what
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: type of family I wanted to have, your typical American
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: family is what I thought in my head. We left
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: our biological family because we were neglected. They were not
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: capable of taking care of us. There was no physical
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: abuse on me and my sister, and there was no
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: sexual abuse on me and my sister. Where we entered
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: our adopted home, not our foster home, our adopted home.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: That's what we both experienced physical and sexual abuse for
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: the first time.
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: At age sixteen, Tony became pregnant, and at seventeen, she
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: gave birth to her son. Toni's adopted household was not
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: a place that she felt loved or supported. She knew
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: she needed her own space where she could create a
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: loving home for herself and her son, So on her
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: eighteenth birthday, Tony signed a lease on her own apartment,
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: and shortly after her younger sister also moved in. By
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: age nineteen, Tony was employed full time as a bank teller,
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: and over the years she worked her way up into management,
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: a career that nearly a decade later presented an opportunity
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: for her managing a bank in San Diego. She and
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: her son traded in their East Coast roots for sunny
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: weather and warm beaches. Everything was going well until one
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: day in November of twenty nineteen, Tony was at work
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: when she heard the unmistakable sound of a gunshot.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: I believe I was living in San Diego for about
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: a year and a half and things were going pretty well.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: To be honest, I met a lot of people, I
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: had a group of close friends. Like it was going good,
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: but at this particular job I was at.
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: It was a Wednesday.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: I always remember it was Wednesday, and it was about
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: it was dark, so it was November on a Wednesday,
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: and it was dark outside. And this particular job, I
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: am a manager here, so I'm a big manager again,
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: and I'm sitting with one of my employees, who, by
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: the way, is my best friend now, and all of
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: a sudden, there is a gunshot that goes off and
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: something flies between us and I stand up because.
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: I'm very confused.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: She bends down and I look down at her, and
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: to be honest, the rest is kind of like a
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: blur because at some point I kind of did things
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: like lock the door, things that I don't remember doing,
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: but it's on camera with me doing it. I can't
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: get too much into that to this because there was,
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: you know, a lawsuit involved, and that's all been settled,
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: but it traumatized me.
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: Tony reached a settlement with the bank she was employed
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: by that doesn't allow for her to say much about
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: what happened, but the incident was traumatizing, and all of
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: a sudden, Tony had time off work, something she'd never
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: had since becoming a single parent. So she decided to
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: download a dating app.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: So I swipe on this guy named Alex. He's not
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: the typical type I go for, but again, I think
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: he's super cute. I remember on his Bumble profile he
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: had a lot of like outdoor activities of hiking, and
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: I love hiking, so that was like the first thing
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: I liked is seeing that he hyped probably just as
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: much as me, according to his pictures. I think the
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: outdoorsy piece connected us the most. I don't remember the bio,
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: to be honest with you, I have no idea what
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: it said, but it had to say something good because
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: when I swipe, I actually read bios to make sure
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: it's not anything crazy or rude.
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: By the way, Alex isn't his real name. We've changed
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: his name and the names of others for Tony's privacy.
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: As soon as Tony and Alex matched on the dating app,
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: Alex reached out to schedule a date. Tony accepted his invitation,
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: but decided to cancel at the last minute and gave
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: the excuse that her leg was hurting. Alex didn't take
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: it personally, and instead he called Tony to check on her.
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: And then he called the check on me and say like,
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: how's your leg? What happen?
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: And it just a casual conversation. Then we started talking
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: and goofing and laughing. We ended up being on the
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: phone for an hour, just goofing around because he called
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: me to check on my lefe to make sure I'm okay.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: The next morning, after talking to him, I was like,
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: all right, my leg's going to be fine.
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: I think I don't know what reason I gave him,
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: but I'm like, we could go all some more.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Suddenly it feels great.
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you're normal, you seem nice.
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: So we went to breakfast that morning. We went to
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: this place called Mom's. It was like a breakfast place
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: in San Diego. First of all, he arrived before me
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: and then he stood up walked, you know, behind me.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: We got our table very like gentleman, like, I know
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: this sounds silly, but little things like let me order first,
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: you know, wait till I'm done, Like the little things
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: that you noticed. He had like bright eyes, like happy eyes.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: I really pay attention to those things about people I
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: don't know, because I feel like sometimes I have sad
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: eyes even when I try not to. He had really bright,
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: happy eyes, which drawed me in because I like that.
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: I remember our first date.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: We did a lot of talking, but I don't think
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: we got We did not get deep. We didn't get
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: super deep. We talked about like our siblings and things
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: like that. I let him know I was adopted, but
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: we didn't get like deep on this first date.
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: Was there an immediate chemistry?
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: Yes? I thought he was cute as hell. Yeah, I
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: remember thinking that. I remember thinking like, oh my god,
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: he's really adorable.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: Actually, I remember thinking adorable because he was three to
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: four years younger. Okay, ironically, that's also what made me
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: think I'm not going to really take him seriously because
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: he was also younger, and I think.
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: I did say that. I was like, oh, you're so
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: young though, like but he was like, oh, you know,
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: the typical.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: It's just age. It doesn't mean anything. So after the
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: first date, the same day, he had texted me and
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: he said thank you for going out with me. I
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: thought that was cute. Another winner right there, like that's
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: a cute, No, that is cute. I agree, yeah, And
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: I replied like, well, thank you for taking me out
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: because you paid. In my head, I remember saying that
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: so about I would say four weeks after just going
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: on dates, having Vawn hanging out. He had went on leave,
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: so I think it was like a week leave in which,
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: you know, I took him to the airport, but we
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: went out to eb for the airport. And that was
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: a very pivotal conversation because we're sitting, you know, in
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: this restaurant and I'm about to drop off for the airport.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: He's not my boyfriend. We're just dating and he's going
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: to be going for just a week or two. He
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: says like, I don't know what you're going to do
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: while I'm gone, but just so you know, like I
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: only want to date you. So that was like that
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: exclusive conversation before he was leaving.
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: How did that make you feel?
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: I really really excited.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: I was kind of shocked he brought that up because
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: I wasn't going to and I wasn't dating anybody else
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: at the time. But I think I was just not
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: going to bring it up in a way. It was
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: only like a month, right, so in my head, like
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: that's a good amount of time to figure out if
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: you like someone and you know, have that conversation. But
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: I also didn't want to add pressure again. That age
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: thing is where I kind of was okay, being a
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: little bit more casual. So you had that conversation and
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: I said, oh, like, you know, I'm going to do
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: the same. I'm not dating anyone else anyway. And that
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: was kind of like when we decided we're not you know,
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: boyfriend girlfriend, but we're just not seeing other people. Dropped
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: him off at the airport, and then when he came
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: back is when we made it official. He was saying
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: how much he missed me and all those things. Then
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: we've decided to date.
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and how long did you to date before, you know,
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: talking about marriage?
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: Oh, not long enough? About four months? Four months of dating.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: You know, when you think back on it, it's like
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: red flag right there. Four months is not enough time?
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: What prompted the marriage converse? So early? Did he bring
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: it up? Did you bring it up?
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: So COVID was happening around this time, and he was
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: supposed to go away again for a deployment, but things
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: got delayed because of COVID, And when they got delayed,
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: that meant we were around each other a lot more
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: because of lockdown and things like that.
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: We were always together.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: We were just always around and we had this linging
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: thing of oh my god, randomly, they're going to tell
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: him it's time to go, and he's going to go
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: for six months. He shared it with me that he
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: had a fear that when he went, I would leave him,
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: because he did share that happened to one of his
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: older brothers who was in the military. So he had
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: this overwhelming fear that when they called him to go
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: on deployment, he would come back and I would be
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: with someone else or just moved on. And I kept
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: telling him, no, that's not going to happen, but it
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: did put a rush on things of the longer that
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: they pushed it back, the more we felt like we
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: had limited time, like I don't know he felt like that,
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: but I also felt that too. For some reason, when
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: we started talking about marriage, that was a big factor
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: of it. We knew that if we were married, and
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: a sense for him, probably I wouldn't leave, I guess,
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: But for me it was more so like maybe I
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: could show him that I'm not going to just leave,
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: like I really care about him, I love him at
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: this time.
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: It's interesting this idea of like a fear that he
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: would be left prompting a marriage and not sort of
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: this overwhelming desire to build a life together.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: Right, And I never had anyone have that particular fear. Ironically,
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: I would have that fear in family situations. So seeing
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: that he had that fear, I really did feel like
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: I wanted to show him that that's not going to happen.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: Saying it wasn't enough because he always had that fear,
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: even though I knew in my heart I wouldn't have
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: done that. I felt, in a sense, loved that he
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: was worried about losing me that much.
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes total sense.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: What was it about him that made you love him? Like,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: was there anything about him that you were like, this
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: is something I really love about this person, or I
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: am attracted to or I could build a family with him,
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: or what was that feeling?
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: It was how he was with my son right off
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: the bat when they finally met. He was just really
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: communicative with him. My son had had a birthday and
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: he was like, hey, like, do you mean to do this?
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: You can do that.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: He would take the time to bond with my son
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: like without me, which is a big thing for me
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: because I don't want to date someone that's just liking
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: my son because he's my son, right, Like I want
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: them to get to know him on his own, and
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: he did that. He would go and hikes with him
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: without me. They would plan their own little things, kind
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: of gang up on me in jokes and situations. They
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: had their own bond, they really did. And I really
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: like seeing how much he cared about him, and that
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: kind of was it for me as far as like
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: he's the one.
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: And so when did you make the decision to get married.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: Did he propose?
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, Actually, he planned it with my son. He proposed
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: on a hike. My son knew about it. My son
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: kind of led me to know about it because of
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: how he was acting. He was being really odd. He
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: proposed on the hike. My son was there. It was
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: like a you know, cute moment. It was one of
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: those funny moments because it was a hike, so like
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: it wasn't the easiest hike. I'm like, out of all
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: the places, time sweating, but it was still one of
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: those cute memories. And I remember the proposal came and
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: I was excited, but I knew. I was like, this
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: is going to be one of those like two year engagements.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: So we had talked about the wedding being after deployment,
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: like you know later like there's no rush.
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: That didn't happen.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: So it went from us getting married after he comes
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: back from deployment. Again, we knew he was going to
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: get employed at some point and be gone for six months,
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: like that was the perfect amount of time to plan
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: a wedding and you know, figure everything out soon. The
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: conversation changed from after deployment to he wanted to get
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: married before he left.
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: The urgency was.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: Like there, and I think at first I said, like,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: we'll think about it, because that's such a short time
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: to plan a wedding. So I said, well, think about it.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: Covid was dying down around this point, but there was
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: still a lot of limitations. So he said, well, we
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: could just do it on the beach.
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: It doesn't have to be a whole plan, like, we
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: don't have to plan a wedding.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: So every like opposition I had with you know, that's
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: a short time to plan a wedding, it was like, well,
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: we really can can't plan a wedding. It's Covid. COVID's
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: still here. It's dying down, but it's still here. So
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: it's like he kind of won. But also at the
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: time I was letting him win. I'm in love, So
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: I'm not seeing this as an issue. I'm seeing as that,
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: like he's persistent, he wants to do this. I'm okay, waiting,
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: but you know what, let's do this. And that's when
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: his parents had flew out to meet me, because now
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: obviously I'm engaged with their son.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and meeting his family, how did they respond to you.
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: You guys had only known each other and been dating
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: four months.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: So his dad seemed nice, you know, talked a lot.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: His mom barely communicated with me. I think she would
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: only talk to him mostly like she just seemed very
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: uninterested and getting to know me, more interested in seeing
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: her son again. I realized that not only was I
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: at the first you know, minority that had entered that
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: family in that way. They didn't seem, according to them,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: to be around many African American people in general. It's
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: the comments they were making. This is a really tough time,
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: this is twenty twenty, right, Black Lives matter going on.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: There was a lot happening, and they would bring that
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: up but in a negative way in front of me,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: so I just would ignore it, like they would blame
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: more African Americans for the issues and that. How you know,
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: his dad at the time was an active police officer,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: so he would say how he's going to retire, and
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: he did retire, but he would say, like, I'm retiring
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: because if I don't retire, you know, it is very
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: negative about black people, maybe like ruining his job in
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: a sense. Wow, it just became very weird.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, when they would make those comments with Alex stick
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: up for.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: You, and looking back, I wonder if he did hear.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: But he wouldn't hear all of this. Sometimes he would
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: and he would say something but like according to him,
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: I would have to tell him and.
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: He would be like, oh, I didn't even know they
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: said that, and then he would stick up for me.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: But he always would often say he didn't hear it
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: or he didn't pick it up, and I believed him.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: But he understood why it might make you uncomfortable some
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: of their comments.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: He did understand we would have like our first big
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: argument because of that. He would say, I told him
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: not that close with him, even though obviously we experienced
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: that he was.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: But he would say things like that, So, just so
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: that we can be clearer, Alex and his family are white,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Is that right?
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: Yes?
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So you have this argument with Alex about these
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: comments coming from his family, and that's your first real disagreement,
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: is that when you called off the wedding.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, I call off the wedding because more comments. His
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: father was saying, I don't want to get obviously to political,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: but he was making a lot of comments that were
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: really just offensive and obviously against me as a woman,
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: a black woman, And at that point I realized, like,
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: what am I marrying into really, and I felt like
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: he was dis honest with me about that.
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: He said he didn't even.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: Know they were like this at one point and then
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: later on changed it, but it just it felt so confusing.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: I felt so conflicted, and he had went away for training,
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: and I probably should have did it over text, but
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: I did because I knew, like, if I did over text,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: like you know, he's already away, this would be a
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: little bit easier. And I said, like, I still love you,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: I so want to be with you, but I just
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: don't want to get married right now. And according to
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: his friends, he had a whole breakdown and was crying,
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: and that's when his friend started calling me saying, like,
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: don't call off the wedding because of his parents.
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: He's nothing like them.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: He loves you in a sense guilt triving me, and
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: I actually agreed with them. I was just like, oh, like,
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: you know, you're right, I shouldn't call it the wedding
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: because of his parents. Like that's not fair to him.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: I'm judging him because of his parents. Oh God, I
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: wish I would have stood on business and called it
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: off because I knew, I felt deep in my heart
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: I should have. But I ended up changing my mind
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: and we went on with the wedding.
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: So a month after the wedding, I became pregnant, and
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: that was the first time he was physical at the time.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: I don't think it was some big argument. I don't
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: remember it being a chaotic day. I can say though,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: life happened fast. So after the wedding becoming pregnant, so fast,
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: life just goes. And at this particular time, he had
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: really full force started like standing up for me against
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: his parents. So he was stressed about a deployment that's
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: coming up. And then I remember he's just still arguing
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: with his parents about me, in particular, going back and
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: forth about me. So I hate that I excused it
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: for the stress.
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: He was dealing with.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: But he was physical for the first time, and I
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: did call a friend who came over. She did, you know,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: say like, this isn't normal. He should never have done that.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: There's no excuse. She had to talk with him. And
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: I always appreciate this friend because for her to come
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: over and have a talk with him, a stern talk,
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: like as she was like a parent in a sense,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: like she said, what you did is manipulative, it's abusive.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: I was really proud that I had a friend like that,
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: but I also was like, wow, I wish I could
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: talk to him like that.
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: She was very matter of fact, and he seemed to
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: listen to her, and he apologized and said it wouldn't
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: happen again. Every time I look back on that day,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: I remember all the excuses I had in my head already.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: I was really surprised because I've dated obviously before him,
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: and I've never had a man harm me in that way.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: I've barely had men I dated lift their voice. Like
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: I kid you not, that's a trigger for me when
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: someone yells at me. Actually a man because what I
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: didn't share is one of the reasons that we were
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: taken from our home is you know, our mother showed
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: us abusive relationships often. We've watched or be abused by
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: men as kids a lot. So what I dated, I
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: always dated with that in front of mine. I don't
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: like when a man raises his voice to me. That's
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: a no for me. So because I've never had experienced that,
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: and I felt like I was really good at dating
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: people that didn't do that, I was shocked at the
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: man I married ended up being the person to do that.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: So I was very confused and shocked, and I always
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: told myself it would never be me, and it was.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: And that's so scary because you're already married to him,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: and it's just like he didn't do this until you
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: were married.
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really scary.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: Married and pregnant and purchasing a home in a whole
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: new state, exactly. Tony and Alex saw a therapist following
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: the first incident, a physical abuse by Alex, but Tony
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: didn't tell that therapist about the incident. She was pregnant
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: and hoped that he could better himself before becoming a
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: father to the baby girl they had on the way.
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: Alex was then deployed for much of Tony's pregnancy, but
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: Tony always had the support of her son, who stepped
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: in to care for her.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: So that's a big gap of time where it was
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: just me and my son. And I want to highlight
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: him because you know, I was getting morning sickness. My
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: son would hear it, come in with bags like I
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: know this stuff.
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: One time you.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Started cleaning up and I'm like, don't clean up, I
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: got this, like bye, just get out. Like That's how
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: helpful my son was throughout everything. When we would go
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: to the beach, he'd make sure he's lded my hand.
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: Down the stuff. So I'm like, oh my god, this
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: little boys amazing.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: So when I had ended up moving to Colorado with
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: him and my daughter, it was okay, Like I know
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: that sounds crazy, but we're okay. We were okay without him.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: We managed without him, but I didn't miss him.
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: Of course we moved.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: To Colorado, I had had the baby at this point,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: so we had our daughter in California, and that's when
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: we had purchased the home sight unseen by the way,
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: so we did with the real litter virtually. So when
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: we're in Colorado, we miss each other a lot. Like
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: I remember missing him. I remember being able to be
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: fine with the kids, but we weren't always together because
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: he was in California, still finishing off his contract in
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: the military. I remember that. A really important sign that
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: I didn't that made me very confused of his mental
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: state was there was a day in particular, nothing had
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: happened between us. We weren't argue or anything like that,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: but I didn't hear from him like all day. And
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: at first it was nothing. I was like going about
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: my day. But when I started texting and no reply
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: for hours, I'm like, this is so odd, Like I
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: hope he's okay. So I had called one of his
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: friends and I said, hey, like, is he okay? Is Alex?
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: Where's Alex? I haven't been able to reach him. So
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: I saw him a few hours ago. I'll call him.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: He called me an answer, He's like, hey, I don't know,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: Like he's probably fine, though, don't overthink it. Hours go
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: by and you got to think I haven't heard from
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: him since like eight in the morning, And at first
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: I'm not noticing it. It's now like seven and I'm like,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: oh my god, like he got in a car accident
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: or something. I'm super nervous. Now I'm like calling, calling, calling,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: calling his friends some more. I think I had a
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: whole cry session. I'm like, oh my god, I can't
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: reach them. He calls back like nothing happened, like he
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: didn't just disappear all day and like he doesn't have
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Probably thirty minus calls me. He's like, hey, what's up.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, are you okay? He's like, yeah, I'm fine.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: I just hurt myself skateboarding. I FaceTime him, like you
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: know what's going on? And he has his eyes are
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: red like he was crying. There's blood on his arms
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: from like the skateboard, you can see the strap marks.
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: And I was like, were you crying? He was like
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: I was. And I was like, what's wrong? Are you okay?
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: And he's just like, yeah, I'm fine.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: I was so confused. I had no idea what just happened.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: I haven't heard him all day. I FaceTime him and
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: he has red eyes like he's crying, and then I
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: hang up and I remember thinking like what was that?
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: Like what just happened?
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: So did you ever get answers like why are you
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: behaving this way? After a day of no contact?
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: I did, in the sense of he he said, he
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: goes through depression, and this is like one of the
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: first times I have found out his mental state because
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: he told me that he was suicidal.
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: Unfortunately, what was your reaction to that?
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: I felt really bad. I even blamed myself a little,
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: and like life happened fast for him, like you know,
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: baby marriage. I thought maybe this was too much, too overwhelming.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: I thought I was a problem. I really didn't. I
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: hate that I resulted to that, but I thought, maybe,
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: like this is a lot for him, and I started
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: really thinking about his needs and his mental state more
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: than mine.
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: At the time. There was other.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Incidents that had happened, physical and just mental outbursts that
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: would happen throughout our marriage, and I would hide a
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: lot of it from my son until one time, you know,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: there was a violent incident where I did call the
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: police because I was worried for my life and my safety.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: At the time that I called the police, he knew
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: I had called him and left the house with a
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: firearm and was texting me that he was going to
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: use it. So when the police arrived, I said, like, hey,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: you know, nothing happened, Can you just go make sure
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: he's okay? And they saw his car pull off. They asked,
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: was that his car that pulled off at the end
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: of the street. Said yes, so can you go make
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: sure he's okay? He said, he's legally allowed to have
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: a firearm and leave, so they couldn't like go chase
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: after him unless I said something happened. But I knew
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: that if I said what had happened, he'd get arrested.
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: And I don't know.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: In my head, I thought when he realized the cops
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: were saying, Hi, he's going to do it. So I
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: called his mom, told her what was happening, told her
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: to tell him not to do it. Had the cops leave,
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: told them nothing happened. I don't want to talk about it.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: They left like a domestic violence pamphlet. I think they
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: saw through it, but they couldn't do anything. He came
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: home the same day. It was probably like three hours
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: after that. We had already been texting and here to
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: let me know he wasn't going to do it. By
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: this point, even in text, I told him, you know, hey,
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: I didn't tell the police what happened, Like, please just
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: come back and don't do it. That was my biggest thing.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: So the incident where I called the police. We had
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: been married at this point for I want to say
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: two years, okay, and again, you know, I want to
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: be clear things happened before, but this was the first
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: time I had called the police.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And so you know, it's interesting You're dealing with
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: worrying about his safety because he has a gun that
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: he is threatening to use on himself, but then he
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: also is clearly threatening you are safety, and you're in
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: the safety of your children exactly.
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: Yes, So you're.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: Having to feel like you have to protect everybody in
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: this scenario basically, right. Was this like a breaking point
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: for you you decided to call the police. Was there
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: something different in his demeanor or something that had changed
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: to escalate the situation?
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, I don't know if I didn't notice before, but
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: he had a different look in his eyes, and I
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: truly felt like he was going to unlively. I think
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: this is the point where I started realizing all the
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: great things about him wasn't really him, that this is
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: really him. I think this was the point where I
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: stopped thinking I did this, you know, the stress from
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: marriage and a new baby, Like I finally got into
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: my head that it's not that it's him. That was
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: really important for me to realize because that's the first
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: time I told my son that the cops had came.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: And why it was a weird situation to tell him,
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: because again, he's a teenager at this point, and it's
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: odd that I felt the need to tell him, but
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: I thought it was important for him to know because
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: growing up, we knew, Like when we were kids, we
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: knew what was happening, and they pretended nothing was happening.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: I wanted to make sure that I was honest with
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: him because I think he already knew. I told Alex,
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: you have to get help or you have to leave.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: And that's when we had started the process of him
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: getting help. We got a marriage counselor, he got his
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: own counselor, he got his own therapists and psychiatrist. He
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: started getting prescribed medications, and he seemed to after that begins,
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: he seemed to start doing good for a little bit.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: But yeah, my son never forgave him. They never had
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: a close relationship after that. My son truly felt and
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: he's right, if a man can put his hands on you,
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: that he's not a good man. And my son was right,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: So I told you things were going good for a while.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Of course, it never laughed. Went to visit a friend
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: of mine for her baby shower. This incident was probably
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: one of the most chaotic ones. But he had attempted
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: on highway to jump out of a moving car. It
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: was very traumatic. The kids were there to see it.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: My sister were going to the beach, so she was
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: there and she saw everything. And because she saw everything,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: it heightened it because she was so confused and shocked,
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: and you know, yelled at him. Because we have kids
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: in the car. I was driving with one hand on
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: the stand and while the other hand on the lock
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: because he kept moving it, so I had to keep
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: pressing it.
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: My daughter's crying.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: My son takes out his phone and starts reporting because
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: he's just like, I need proof of this.
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: This is insane. It was just a lot.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: It was the most chaotic et fears I've ever been
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: in because we have so many moving parks here. I'm
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: trying to make sure he doesn't do anything insane, trying
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: to make sure my kids stop witnessing this, trying to
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: keep him calm. Ended up calling his parents at this
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: point because I can't do this on my own.
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: Right What happened in the car that day was terrifying.
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: When they returned home from the baby shower, Tony and
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: Alex mutually agreed to separate. He would move into the
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: base of their home to give her and the kids
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: more space after behaving so erratically putting them all in danger.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: The moment in the car when Tony tried desperately to
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: stop Alex from jumping out of their moving vehicle, all
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: while trying to protect her children from the trauma of
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: witnessing it, this was a moment of no return for Tony.
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: She knew ending her marriage with Alex would be a long,
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: difficult and dangerous road, but she no longer had energy
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: to hope for change. Tony began quietly making preparations to leave.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: And about I would say a week after him being
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: in the base, and we started crying, saying, he's moser
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: voice to press and he wants to come back upstairs
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: the usual.
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: And I let him.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: But my little sister and me were saying in touch
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: about the situation. Because I was still planning to leave.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: I just knew I had to. I started the process
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: of opening an account, you know, just preparing I actually
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: joined domestic violence supports groups told them what was going on,
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: like I couldn't even with letting her I'm come back upstairs.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: I felt bad, but I also knew I did. I
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: didn't feel safe, and I didn't feel like my kids
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: were safe, and I actually was doing it for my
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: safety and their safety.
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: First.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: I wasn't caring about how much I cared about him
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: and wanted him to be better. I was caring about
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: us living. So one thing I learned is when you're
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: in a domestic violence situation, you really can't. They say,
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: make a plan, but it's so hard to make a
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: plan because your plans will go Hey, why when you're
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: dealing with a person that is not stable, interrational? Because
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: why I'm planning and I'm thinking, I'm secretly doing this.
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: I'm secretly doing that.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: I even talked to my boss and let them know, like, hey,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: I might have to, you know, transfer, So I'm talking
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: to you know, my boss. I'm getting the sport of
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: domestic violence support group. I'm moving some of my paycheck aside.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: Like I'm planning well randomly, one day I wake up
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: and there's another blow up, another blow up in the morning,
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: and I don't know where it's coming from came out
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: of nowhere. And he told me, he said, last night,
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: you told me you hate me, you don't love me anymore,
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: and you're leaving me. And I look at him and
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: I'm like, no, I didn't. And I started thinking did
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: I say this? Like was I have sleep?
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: We fell asleep watching a movie by the way the
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: night before.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: So when he said that I said these things, I
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: actually like thought I did or something, But I don't
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: remember saying them. I don't I still till today, like
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: I know I didn't say them now, but at the time,
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: like thinking, did I say these things? And he started
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: saying all these mean things I said to him, and
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: I'm like, why would I say that? I know better,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: Like I know better than them, just say those things
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: because I know they would upset him. And now I
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: realized that that was just a part of his mental help.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: I remember him having the outburst, me just crying. I
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: called her friend, told her what's happening, and he left
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: for an hour, came back with flowers.
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: My kid.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: You know, I saw him walking in through the window
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: with flowers, and I was disgusted. I remember it, just
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: wanting to throw up, like is he serious. He walks
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: in with these flowers and I asked him, like, I
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: put them down because I don't really care about them.
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: I say, like, what was that this morning? And he
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: was like, I don't know.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: And then he went about his day and I felt
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: like I was in the house with a zombie or
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: something because he was just like going to today like
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: nothing happened.
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: And then we ordered pizza. We're eating the pizza.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: I asked him to give me plates because he starts,
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: I know, this is so silly, but we ordered the pizza.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: The first thing he does is get up, get the
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: pizza and then go sits back down, doesn't get it
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: for the kids, doesn't do anything. I was like, you
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: can at least show me some plates, help me with
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: the kids. That set them off. He threw all the
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: plates at me. He went on a tyrant. Another incident,
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: this time it involved our child, so I'm not going
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: to get into that too much. Our daughter, and then
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: my son overheard it and he called the police, and
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: that is when the police arrived arrested him.
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: And that was the.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Last time I've been in the house with him. That's
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: the last time we were together. So what happened is
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: he was arrested. I think he was in jail for
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: two days, and the judge released him on a strict
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: no contact order. But at night, it's around nine o'clock.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: I believe at night, we hear the garage opening, and
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: my son hears it.
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: We freak out.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: Honestly, I didn't tell my son that's but I thought
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: that was it. I was like, he's gonna, you know,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: hurt us, like this is it because we heard it opening.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: And then I rush up, I turn on the lights
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: and by the time I get to the garage, it
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: is no longer open. And then I call his brother's wife,
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: the only person I was kind of in touch with
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: you all this time, and tell her what happened, and
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: she calls him, and he did admit that he was
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: just there. He said it was to get a bong,
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: a bomb.
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: He broke the no.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: Contact scared us to get a bong, so he said.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: And then he had opened the garage because we have
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: like a monitor. He opened it halfway just to roll under,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: which is even creepier to get a bob.
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: To get a bomb.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, but at this point the court does state that
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: the only way we can communicate is to a third
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: party about the children only who were like needs for them.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: I asked his brother's wife, Karen, if she could be
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: the third party communicator. She agrees, and the reason why
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: I felt comfortable asking her is throughout the relationship, she
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: was one of the people that would apologize for others' behaviors.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: She would apologize for my mother in law's treatment towards me.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: She didn't have the best relationship with either, so she
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: understood where I was kind of coming from with some
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: of the issues. Hers weren't obviously racially motivated, but it
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: was just the way she treated her she didn't like.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: So we kind of bonded on the fact that like
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: we both kind of don't like our mother in law.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: I guess I thought, because she's like the in law too,
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: that she would choose right over wall, and she did
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: for a while, she really did, so she was our
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: third party.
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: When he came by the house and rolled under the
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: garage door, did you call the cops or just your
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: sister in law just Karen? Did you guys have any
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: discussion about whether or not it might be best for
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: you to call the cops since he had violated his
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: protection order so quickly?
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: No, because I knew he was already in trouble with
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: the police. I guess that work where that protection comes
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: in again. I think I wanted to protect him because
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: I didn't want him to be arrested again.
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: So no, I didn't.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: And plus in my head, I'm like, well, at list
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: it was just a bong and not too you know,
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: a lie of us.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: Since he had agreed to the separation, was the divorce
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: spend in motion.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: The timeframe of him agreeing to the separation was in
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: August twenty twenty three. He was arrested in October twenty
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: twenty three, so no, nothing was in motion even with him.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: You know when I told you he was upset whened
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: to come back upstairs, he wanted to call off the divorce.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: That was part of him being upset. And when it
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: comes stairs, he actually said he has no reason to
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: live if he doesn't have his family, things like that.
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: So although like I may have, I feel like reassured.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Him like okay, like we'll talk about it, just you know,
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: you need to keep getting help. I was still making
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: the plans with my sister and still doing the task
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: that I needed to do to make sure I got.
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: Out Once Alex was arrested. Tony felt like she could
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: finally put a plan in place to move herself and
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: her children out of Colorado. She listed their house for sale.
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: She worked with a nonprofit in her home state on
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: the East Coast to help her find new housing site unseen.
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: This was October of twenty twenty three. Ideally, Tony wanted
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: her son to be able to finish out the school
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: year before their move.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: But unfortunately, again, you can't make plans when you're dealing
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: with an abuse of situation because they don't always happen
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: and go through. And that's what had happened. It went
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: for me, saying I had till January to February to
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: me having to leave as soon as possible because my
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: ex decided to harass me and the children at the
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: family home. So at this time, it's fall in October,
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: so it's about thirty degrees that night, maybe thirty four
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: around that, and because of that, you start turning on
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: your heat.
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: I turned the heat on. I would turn it.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: I'd leaved to seventy two, seventy four, I don't remember
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: around there. I go seventy two, and every like maybe
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: two hours, I'd wake up freezing cold because the heat
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: was off and the AC was on, and it was
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: to the lowest point, the lowest you can put it
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: at sixty two. You can't like put it lower than that,
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: so it be to the lowest point.
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: And I'm like, why is the heat off? What's going on?
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: And in my head I'm like, I can't. I can't
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: fix this, like it's just me. I don't know how
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: to fix this. So I would go back to the thermostat,
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: turn it back on heat. I would fill the vent
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, Okay, the heat's coming out and I'll
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: go back to bed. It will happened again. I woke
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: up the next morning with my daughter coughing, she's cold.
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: I'm cold. My son wakes up for school. He's like,
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: why is this so cold in the house. I was like,
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: I don't know. I think the thermostats broke. This went
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: on for four days.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: On the fourth day, I thought about and I was like,
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: oh my god, could this be Alex like toggling on
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: the thermostat. We had a smart thermostat, And it was
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: indeed Alex. I don't know how he was awake all
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: these times the night or day or whatever, but he
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: would literally routinely go in, turn off the heat and
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: turn on the.
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: AC so we'd be cold.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: From his phone.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: From his phone, Yep, he had access just like I did.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: So I had removed the access and it stopped.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Wow, but it's colder than sixty two because it's like
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: thirties outside and he has the AC on.
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we were cold. We were really cold.
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: Do you think he was watching you?
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: That was another thing he had admitted to, So we
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: did have cameras. I ended up changing the pass cold
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: that he was. He also tried to log into it
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: after I changed the pass where it didn't work because
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: I got the.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: Alert you had cameras inside your house.
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: It was in the den.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: We had a camera in the den and then like
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: the common areas, so he knew when I was home.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: So he's like in theory watching you get up called
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: and be confused about the thermostat Yep.
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: Did you ever tell your son that Alex was responsible
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: for that?
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: No, because at this point he knew we were leaving
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: and he was already really stressed and sad to say
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: goodbye to his friends. I wanted to make the rest
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: smooth as possible, so I did not Karen you know,
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: she was definitely the only person I felt supported by
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: in that family. So I would tell her these things,
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: and that's how I found out he admitted it, because
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: he admitted it to her. So after he was arrested
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: and she became our third party, she said she laid
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: it out to him. She called him, like, what is
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: wrong with you? You know, giving him the whole you
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: know what is happening, right, And his response was, I
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: sometimes black out and I don't remember what I do.
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: You know. He was released from.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: JEL at this point, and he said, tell her that.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: They said that if she needs help with the kids,
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: she has to like amend and no contact. So when
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: she called me back, it was like he said this,
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: he said that, and I told her, I said, I'm
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: not amending though, no contact.
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: I'm leaving him. And she had told me he.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: Was remorseful on the phone, but I didn't care. I said,
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: I'm leaving him. So another incident had happened, of course, right,
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: It's around eight o'clock at night. Me and my daughter
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: were watching TV. My son's in his room, and all
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: of a sudden, the power goes out. You know how
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: when you lose power in the neighborhood or something like that.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: So we're like, oh my god, the power's out. And
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: my daughter's scared of the dark. At this time, she's
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: just a toddler, so she's crying and I'm trying to
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: find a flashlight. I use my phone to find you know,
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: the phone flashlight to find a flashlight. I get it,
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: and then my son meets up with me and he's like,
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: oh my god, the power went out. And we go
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: out on the porch. The power's not out. All our
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: neighbor's porch lights are on. It's just us and we
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: see his car speed buy in front of us. It's
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: like so fast, and my son just freaks out and
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: he's very He's such a nonchalant kid. I've never seen
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: him so upset. He freaks out. He says, oh my god,
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: it was him, and I'm trying.
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: To listen to him.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to figure out where the power boxes on
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: the outsids. I don't know where it's at. We go
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: around the house. I see it on the side of
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: the house where there's no cameras. We have to toggle
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: through it in the dark, and we lifted up all
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: the lights come back on it. That was that was
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: too much for me, and I called the police because
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: I knew he was going to keep doing stuff.
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: I knew it.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: I was like, this is not going to stop. He's
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: making me pay. I called the police, told him everything.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: I said, the car, you know, sped by, and they said,
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: but did you see him in the car? I said
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: no because I didn't, and that they can't do anything
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: unless he admitted it because I didn't see him. And
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my god, it was his car. They
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: said they'll add it to like, you know, his case,
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: case anything else happens. And I remember thinking like, well,
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: if anything else happens, m'd be too late.
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: Like you know.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: And that's when I said, fa, I'm leaving, like I'm
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: not staying here. He's going to continue to do things.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: So I had packed in two weeks and left. I
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: had my car shipped, put items in the car to
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: ship it. I had some type of long distance truck
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: go out. I didn't drive, but I showed up at
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: the airport with two suitcases and my two kids.
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: And a dog.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Even that experience as one person was just a lie.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: And my son was doing so much like what he
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: could do with his hands, like you know he has two,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: and he had the dog, and we had our had
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: a car seat by the way. On top of that,
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: because my daughter, it was just I look back, I
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: feel like I was running on adrenalin because I don't
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: even know how I did all these things.
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: I don't know how I functioned.
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: To be honest with you, and you moved to the
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: East Coast, yes, right, how did you land on that decision?
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: So my older sister, my little sister, my brothers, everyone,
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: we're all from the East Coast, so I wanted to
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: be closer to them. I wanted to have family support.
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: I thought about staying in Colorado so my son can graduate,
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: but I knew I had a toddler, my daughter, she
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: was two at the time, Like I knew that I
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: needed support more than I would get there. I didn't
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: want my son to be some sort of parental figure
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: for our daughter. I didn't want him to have the
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: burden of babysitting, you know, and things like that when
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: he should be a child having fun. I didn't want
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: any of that experience to overtake his life. Now that
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: I knew, I'm a single parent, so I knew if
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: I moved, I had my siblings. You know my civilly
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: uses sounds like that's what answer for right, they are
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: the babysitters.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, but in my head, I just wanted him to
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: have a normal experience, and I have the support that
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: we need to create that normal experience.
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: When you got to the East Coast and you had
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: your new apartment, did you feel a new sense of
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: relief for safety with that.
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: By the way, this is another place I moved into
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: sight Unseen. I got pictures and videos, but I walked
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: in and I remember thinking like, uh, carpet, So it
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: was carpet everywhere. It was like, you know, and I
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: remember thinking like, I hate carpet, but I feel so safe.
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: I felt so safe.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: You really feel the change of coming from this mode
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: of survival to like, oh my god, I'm safe. I
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: thought he didn't know where I lived, so I felt
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: super safe. I'm like, we did it, we got here,
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: we did it. And I have a picture of my
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: son just holding my and he's like they're sleep and
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: they're sleep on the couch. Because I had a little college,
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: we were waiting for everything to come. It was just
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: one of those moments I think I like cried a
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: little bit because they just looked so peaceful. After all,
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: they had just been through the traveling, the packing, the chaoticness,
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: and I just felt like we were finally at peace.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: I remember not forwarding my address because I was scared
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: to forward it, and then finally I forwarded it to
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: my sister's address instead because I just didn't know if
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: he would find out somehow by logging in. I didn't
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: know at the time I could get an address protection.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: I know that now and I have that now in
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: my new place, but at the time I didn't know,
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: so I just didn't share it. But I did get
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: a call from Karen about three days after being there
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: letting me know that he did find my address, and
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: I said how did he get it? And she said
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: it was from Thumbtack. So remember how I told you
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: I had a long distance mover, I had my car shift.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: I got that stuff from Thumbtack. That's how I arranged
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: the move, and we both had the same Thumbtack log in. However,
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: he would get the alert and of course didn't say anything.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: He waited until I provided the moving address, because they
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: get the address for me the pickup where I was
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: at in Colorado, so he was getting the alerts of everything.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: He knew what I was doing the whole time, and
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: I just didn't know he knew.
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: And you had just had this really beautiful moment of
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: you know, your falling asleep in your new apartment, your
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: kids look so at peace. How did it feel to
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: learn that he now again knew where you lived?
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: I got scared.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: I knew he was still in Colorado at this time,
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: so I felt like I had a short amount of
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: time to figure this out for he gets here.
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: That's another thing.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: He had asked permission and it wasn't granted just yet,
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: but to move here to the same state, and that
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: means he would be about an hour away from me,
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: living with his parents, So they may be a little
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: over an hour, but that's around the distance. So I
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: knew I had a short time before they approve it
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: to figure this out.
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: And it's just a pure coincidence. He happens to also
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: be from the same state on the east coast that
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: you are from, and so his parents were already there exactly.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: That's one of the things laughed about on one of
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: our early dates was, oh, my dad, we're both from
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: the same state. There was a court date set up,
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: and you know, the DDA assistant called me.
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: They let me know the plea deal they were offering.
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: If I was okay with it. I said, I don't care.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: As long as he stays away from me, like I'm
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: okay with whatever plea deal. And they told me the
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: terms of what his probation would because that was a
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: part of the plea deal, probation and dropping some of
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: the charges if he accepts it. I remember thinking about
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: our daughter, who would often ask about him, and I
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: said to the DA assistant, I said, how can he
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: talk to our daughter? How can we figure that out
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: besides the third party? And she had said, you have
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: to ask the judge to amend the no contact so
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: I had to ask permission to allow him to talk
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: to her. So I went virtually and I had to
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: ask the judge to amend this and he said on
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: my shore and I said yes. I asked just for
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: electronic I didn't want any in person communication, just so
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: he can FaceTime, and the judge did granted. So I'm thinking, okay,
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: at least like he could stole some some way be
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: a father to our child. However, he did not do that,
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: and he used that to her ask me instead, and
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: then he was able to text me and he would
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: start her asking me via text. The hard part is
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: there was a part where he was texting so fast,
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: so much, and then at one point he called me
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: a racial slur and then he unscent it. But I
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: had already screenshot it, and this is something that I
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: wanted to use for court, so I already had the
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: proof of that. But he kept going on and on
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: and on. Some of his texts were hard to understand.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: He wasn't really coherent. He would say, speak to me daughter, now,
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: like that's how they were, and I'm like, okay, that's
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: all you should be texting me about. When do you
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: want to speak to her? And then he would say
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: the time and then like we had set up something
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: and he didn't call, and I waited with her. Yeah,
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: he set her up because she knew. That's why she
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: was at her tablet waiting for it. And I realized
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: quickly like, oh my god, this is not working. I
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: need to get the no contact back to what it was.
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: So it just.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: Continued and I didn't call the cops. I know I
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: should have, but I didn't.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: I mean, who could blame you that's a terrifying, say,
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: situation to be in, and you don't know what he's
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: going to do, and.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: Right, I just want to answer his questions and not
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: get him more upset at this point.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like you talking about way back when
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: when he was not defending you to his parents and
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: pretending like he's not hearing all of this coded language,
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: right like or maybe overt racist language, right and saying
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: I'm on your side, I'm on your side or whatever,
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: and then having mental health issues and very violent and
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: a lot of problems and saying a lot of negative things.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: But the fact that then he brings out this you know,
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: racial slur, like, right, I can't, I don't know. That's horrible.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: Did that feel like, oh yeah, like you actually are
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: just like your parents all along? Like how did that
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: make you feel?
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: It was definitely a gut punch, because out of everything,
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: I never thought he'd do that, Like, I mean, there
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: was he was already very low, right, like he was
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: already putting us through a lot, since the bar was
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: already to the ground. I shouldn't have been shocked, but
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: I was. He still continued to shock me with his behavior.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: I did think that I was like, oh my god,
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: he is like his parents. I was mad at myself
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: because it's like I knew it, and I don't know,
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: deep down, I feel like I knew it. When I
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: wanted to call off the wedding, that was actually a concern.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: I'm like, what if he's like that and he just
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: likes me and I'm the exception to the role for him.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: I thought about those things and that was one of
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: the reasons I wanted to call off the wedding. But again,
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: his friend said, he's nothing like his parents, and you know,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: it was definitely a good punch, and it was hard
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: because I also think about our daughter, the fact that
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: I have a daughter with this person, and then safety
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: comes into play of oh my god, well he treat
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: her bad because of that, and if he does well,
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: his parents do the same.
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: Like I just it was a lot.
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: His family, who lives, you know, within an hour or
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: so of you, is in law enforcement.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, his dad is now retired, a retired police officer.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: He has two brothers that are current active police officers,
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: and then Karen is a police officer.
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah, I mean, has that impacted your sort
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: of willingness to call law enforcement no, but.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: I'll explain why. You know, growing up in foster care,
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: police were always there to protect us, you know, as kids.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: And I know there's like the controversy, and I'm not
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: invalidating anyone else's experience, right, because things do happen that
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: aren't okay. My experience is I always felt safe with
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: police always, because of course I have a unique situation
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: being as though they were the.
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: Ones that helped me right as a kid. They helped
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: me many times.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: Now did it validat or make me feel like maybe
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: I had the you know, be careful, Yes, But what
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: I did instead is I would screenshot a lot of
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: things and communications because in my head, I'm like, well,
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: these are police officers.
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: I think I need evidence for everything.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: And I know one should not always think like that,
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: but that's how I thought, like evidence for everything, evidence
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: for everything, because it's going to be my word against
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: police officers, right or police officers.
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: Family.
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: Tony was connected with a domestic violence advocate and a therapist.
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: She knew that Alex would likely continue harassing her, but
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: she found some solace in the physical distance she'd been
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: able to put between them. But then Tony got a
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: call from Alex's probation officer. The officer told her that
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: Alex had knowingly violated his probation. He was driving from
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: Colorado to where Tony now lives on the East Coast.
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: Tony had worked so hard to keep herself and her
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: kids out of harm's way, away from Alex, but now
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: he was headed in their direction, and he had their
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: new address.
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: Anytime a car drove by that was like his. He
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: had a truck and our maintenance men had the same truck.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: But the difference is it had like the name of
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: the building on it, and it was on the other side.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: So wherever I see that truck, my heart just stopped.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: And then I'd keep looking and it'd be the maintenance men.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: So it was things like that that would just panic me.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: I was just I was super alerted, to the point
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: I did have to go to urgent care because I
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: was having heart populations and shortness of breath.
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: Now I was feeling really dizzy.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: I was having daily panic attacks, just super skared, and
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: still I don't call the police. Karen stopped being helpful
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: at some point. I think at the end of the day,
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: that is their family member. I think they made excuses
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: just like I did. Where when someone's in the family,
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: and especially if we're having mental health concerns, I think
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: they probably excuse it as that a lot, you know,
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: his mental health concerns. I truly can't say exactly what
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: made her change, but I can say she did what
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: a lot of family members do to abusers, is end
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: up enabling and making excuses.
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: So the shift really took a hard hit.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: When I had told her about the racial slur and
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: she told me not they're reported.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: She told you not to report it.
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: M Yeah, she texts me.
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: So now she's.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: Telling you don't call the police on him.
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: Yes, I think she knew. I was like really upset.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: So she even called me and said, like, how would
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: my daughter feel if she found out I put her
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: dad in jel over.
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: A word that is so manipulative? That's awful.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's when I finally realized she like,
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: wasn't you know truly my supports. She was more still his.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: She stopped being the person obviously I called. And I
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: noticed that once she stopped being the person I called,
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: I finally felt like I could report him when he
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: continued and continued, and I did, and I ended up
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: reporting him, and it was at the day after the
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: probationian team had warned him to stop harassing me, and
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: then he continued harassing me the same day. So I
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: did call the police. I reported it. They came and
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: they saw the communication. They had everything they needed pretty quickly,
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: and I didn't even send them all of it. They
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: just said send me these, and you know, we're good
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: because they didn't need all of it because he it
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: was a clear violation. They had put a warn out
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: for his arrest. I don't know why they didn't just
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: go and arrest him, but he knew he had a
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: warn him, assuming because he stopped harassing me, like it
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: was a good month of him not harassing me. And
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: then one time he reached out towards the end of
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: that month and asked to speak to our daughter, and
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: obviously I didn't get the no contact amended, so he
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: wasn't in violation by asking to speak to her. I
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: set up a FaceTime and he did speak to her,
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: he actually did, so I was like, Okay, maybe like
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: he's getting help, but yeah, my head out thought maybe
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: he's like doing better.
• 52:07
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: And then the next day he asked speak to her again,
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: and this time we were out, we were not home,
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: and I remember saying like, hey, we're out, like and
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: then he just kept texting like, so you're not gonna
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: let me see to my daughter? When am I going
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: to speak to her? And if you see the text,
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: they were coming in minute by minute, like just so much.
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: He's like, why are you norming?
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: You're not answering, and it was just a lot and
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: I had a panic attack while I was out, I
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: couldn't focus.
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: I drove back and had her face time him. I
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: was that scared. I was like, you know what a.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: You're gonna I feel so bad now thinking like I
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: should have never let her did it. Clearly he wasn't
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: in the right state of mind. But I had her
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: face time him for just I think it was like
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: fifteen minutes, such a short time. But in the text
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: when he kept going on and on and on, he
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: had stated, I can pull her out of the daycare
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: you have her in. I didn't even tell him she
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: was in daycare, so I was.
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: Like, oh, my god, you know she's in.
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: Daycare because she had just started daycare. That was all
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: I needed to obviously go get a protection from pase order.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: In my new state, a temporary order was issued, and
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: I think I got it on a Friday, and the
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: way it works is the next business day they're served.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: I believe the next business day was a Monday. My
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: domestic violence advocate would typically tell me when he served. However,
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: in this case, I got a text from his brother,
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: so Karen's husband stating in a text that says, you're petty.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: Now I know why you block Karen and me and
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: Karen are washing our hands of you.
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: That was the text.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: Because his brother was served and arrested for that outstanding warrant.
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: It's so wild to me that these people work in
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: law enforcement, and I know obviously law enforcement had what
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: they needed to move forward with, like serving him and
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: arresting him, and exactly still they're having no compassion for
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: what you're going through or understanding that he is truly
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: in the wrong here.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: Right, And I think it goes back to a little
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: bit of you know, we're not dealing with just domestic violence.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: We're still dealing with like that racism where they're prejudice.
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: I think that fell into the fact that maybe they
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: didn't see me as a victim, Maybe they didn't see
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: me as somebody worthy of safety, and this is just
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: me feeling like that. But it kind of goes.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: Back to that, Yeah, you know you've said a couple times,
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: which I just think is such an important point to
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: really drive home. Is that, like, there were so many
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: different times where you sometimes yourself, but also a lot
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: of people around you, specifically Alex and then his family
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: members who maybe felt like they were on your side
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: but then very quickly turned against you. All of this
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: is like pointing back to an indication that this is
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: somehow your fault or that you've perpetuated any of this. Right.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: I'd love to hear you speak about that, because I
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: think that there's a lot of people that find themselves
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: in situations of violence and like where crimes are being
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: perpetuated against them, whether it's you know, in domestic situations
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: or not, where they're like being told or feeling like
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: they're the ones to blame they somehow brought this on
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: themse and it's just like, how do you have the
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: presence of mind to remind yourself that that's not true?
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: And what does that take? I guess for.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: Me, it takes seeing this situation differently or stepping out
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: of it. When you're away from your abuser, you're able
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: to see a lot more clear than you were when
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: you were in it. But also, I had told you
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: that my turning point was my son, So seeing it
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: in a different light, I had to see how it's
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: affecting him, to realize, this is this is Alex. This
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: isn't me, this isn't the kids, this isn't his life
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: being stressful, This is Alex. And I saw that by
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: looking at it in a different light. And I needed
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: to see it that way because if I didn't, I
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: would probably continue excusing it. I would probably still be
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: in it, and we'd still be in the cycle.
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: When the police reached out to Alex's brother and his wife, Karen,
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: they tried to blame Tony and to say that she
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: was actually the one her asking them the same victim
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: blaming mentality that Tony had gotten used to, but the
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: police saw right through it. Communication ceased.
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: Where do things stand now with Alex?
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: We ended up going to court again for this new violation,
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: and you know the continued harassment. I got a three
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: year protection order in my current state. He was in
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: a violation of his probation order in Colorado. He had
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: to go back and have court cases for that. I know,
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: because this was his first like offense in this manner.
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: They were going to do a program where you know,
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: they remove it from your record after some type of
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: deferred judgment or something. I'm not sure how that works,
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: but he no longer qualifies for that because he violate explbation.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: They had a warrant issued off for him for a
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: little bit, so he had additional legal issues that I
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: just didn't get involved in. I didn't care about an update.
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: All I focus on was the fact that I had
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: a three year protection order. And I know they don't
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: protect you fully in the sense right like it's a
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: piece of paper, but it still felt.
• 56:49
  Speaker 4: Good to have it.
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: I didn't move again, and I'm under the address confidentiality
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: program in the state. I did file for divorce and
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: I am divorced now and I haven't heard from him
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: in any capacity throughout the divorce process. There's a child
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: custody piece of it, and I felt like, if he
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: can get help, I would want him to be in
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: his child's life. Obviously not my sons. He doesn't want
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: anything to do with him, But I did ask the
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: judge to grant supervise visits of some sort with him
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: and our daughter.
• 57:17
  Speaker 4: However, he didn't.
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: Show up for the custody portion of it, so he
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: has no custody and have full custody of our child.
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: So I would say, you know, we're doing a lot better.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: He hasn't reached out since. In my head, I'm like,
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: it's three years going to go by and then we're
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: going to randomly hear from him. But I try not
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: to think like that. I try to be in the
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: moment and be positive and think that, you know what,
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: like we're safe, We're going to continue to be safe,
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: and I'm going to continue to.
• 57:40
  Speaker 4: Take the steps to make sure of it.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: I haven't communicated with any of his family obviously, so
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: my daughter like doesn't know, you know, her grandparents on
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: that side, and her aunts and uncles on that side.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: So what we do with her and my son is
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: obviously like try to give him as much love as
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: we can, even with extended family. My my older sister,
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: her husband, his family's amazing, and we keep you know,
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: my daughter around them, and that's like her cousins, even
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: though they're through the in law portal of being family.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: We just really want her to have a family, and
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: because me growing up in foster care, I didn't feel
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: like I had that right, Like I didn't feel like
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: I had family that was for me. So trying to
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: make sure my kids feel that way and they're supported.
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: Petia saw your Instagram and you know, shared it with me,
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: and we're both really touched by your story and so
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: glad that you came on here to tell us, you
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: know more about it. What inspired you to share your
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: story and kind of what do you hope comes from it?
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: If I could help you know, just one person, that's
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: what matters to me, and that's what I get. I
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: get messages about how they're happy I'm sharing my story
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: and they could relate, and even in the comments, knowing
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: how many women could relate, it's heartbreaking. But it's also like,
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: you know, we're not alone, and we need to use
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: our voice if we feel comfortable to speak up against it.
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: And you know, I did a five K and my
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: son ran with me in the five K and it
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: was a fight against domestic violence. And I found by
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: doing that that like speaking up and standing up against
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: it really does matter. And at first I thought, how
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: is that going to help prevent it?
• 59:05
  Speaker 4: But it does. It allows abusers.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: To be more scared and embarrassed about their behavior. It
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: holds them accountable. It lets you know, states and cities
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: and counties know what women are going through and how
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: we need to be more protected, and it helps with
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: lawmaking too around this. So I just find it really
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: important to speak up if you can and if you
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: feel safe to do so.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: I am so thankful to Tony for trusting us with
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: her story. Yeah, that was a really powerful interview.
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: I wanted to touch on something that Tony mentioned in
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: her interview that was definitely the more difficult part of
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: what she went through because it involved Alex's family members,
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: which her third party communicator between Tony and Alex was
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: her sister in law who was married to Alex's brother.
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: And this sister in law that Tony referred to as Karen,
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: which is not her real name, is a law enforcement officer,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: as is her husband. Yeah, his brother.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: I was surprised when she said that, yeah.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: Because what we learned is that Karen and her husband
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: sent Tony text messages that were really harmful and manipulative,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: encouraging her not to report things to the police, victim blaming,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: and Tony knew at this time that they were no
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: longer interested in right and wrong. They were trying to
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: protect a family member, and she was very aware of that.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: But it was her domestic violence advocate that said, you
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: need to report this to police because you have no
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: contact order with Alex and that does extend to his
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: immediate family.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is something that I was not aware of
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: me either, But yeah, because she explained, I believe it
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: was after she moved to Colorado that Alex's brother was
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: texting her like really rude things, calling her petty just
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: for trying to protect herself and her kids, and that is,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: you know, harassment, It's harassment, and they ought to have
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: known that as people who work in law enforcement, and
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: so it's like, well, did they know that?
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: Did they not know it? And then when Tony did
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: report it to local police where she was living and
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: they reached out, Karen and her husband then tried to say, well,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: Tony's harassing us, and whoever they connected with knew that
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: was not the story and had Tony's back with what
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: was actually going on. But I just think it's another
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: layer of someone dealing with domestic violence or abuse is
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: going through, especially if it's a spouse because you have
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: extended family that has I don't know what you could
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: call it. There's probably some sort of natural instinct to
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: protect a family member, but you at some point have
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: to say to yourself, can I look at this situation
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: in an unemotional way, Because if I can't, maybe I
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: should not be inserting myself totally.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: And then Tony had to to kind of make that
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: decision for them and realize that they were not going
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: to be a support system for her. And I think
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: this ties in to something else that Tony talked about
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: being really important and being able to defend herself, is
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: that she took meticulous documentation of all of her correspondences.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: Even if it didn't seem important at the time or
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: she wasn't sure if law enforcement could use it, she
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: just went ahead and took screenshots. She took screenshots anytime
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: Alex was reaching out to her, as well as when
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: Karen and her husband reached out to her, and that
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: all ended up being incredibly useful. So that was something
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: that she wanted to communicate to people that it was
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: a really helpful course of action for her at the time.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: Definitely, we do want to call out that the National
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: Domestic Violence Hotline, which you can find online at Theehotline
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: dot org, can help you find an assistance provider if
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: you think you might be experiencing abuse, or if you
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: know you are experiencing abuse, you can plug in your
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: location and find support in your local area. I think
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: it's important to point out that abuse is not always physical.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: Justice dot gov defines domestic violence as domestic violence as
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: a pattern of abusive behavior in any relationship that is
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: used by one partner to gain or maintain power and
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: control over another intimate partner. It says it can be physical, sexual, emotional, economic,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: or psychological. Just domestic violence is an all encompassing term,
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: but abuse doesn't have to be physical for someone to
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: be right to seek help for it.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: So if you think you might benefit from some support,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: why not just reach out and ask about it.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: You can find a link to the hotline dot org
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: in our show notes We'll see you next week. If
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: you have a story for us, we would love to
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: hear it. Our email is The Knife at exactlyrightmedia dot com,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: or you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 3: Podcast or a Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right Production host it and
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: produceduced by me Hannah Smith.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: And me paytia Ety. Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: Alexis Samarosi.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: is Christina Chamberlain. Our theme music is by Birds in
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: the Airport.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.