Latest / PCMA Convene Podcast / Convene Interview [CL26 SPECIAL] Building Sustainable Success Without Burning Out with Erin Stafford
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- Convene Podcast Transcript Convene Interview, ep. 14 *Note: the transcript is AI generated, excuse typos and inaccuracies Magdalina Atanassova: We're talking about building sustainable success in high pressure roles with Erin Stafford. This is the Convene podcast. As a recovering type A overachiever, Erin is on a mission to help leaders and teams unlock extraordinary results without compromising their energy or well being. Erin, thank you so much for being here. Erin Stafford: Thanks for having me. Magdalina Atanassova: I definitely recognize myself in that recovery. Type A overachiever. Erin Stafford: I think probably everybody here at PCMA does. Magdalina Atanassova: Absolutely. Event planners are just right there. Erin Stafford: Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: So tell me about burnout. It often affects the hardest working people. So how come exactly? Ambition and resilience are the two things that get us into trouble? Erin Stafford: Because these are the things that are rewarded in society. The same things that help us be successful are the exact same things that take us down. And I talk about these in my keynotes all the time. That like, if we work hard, we win. If we don't win, we didn't work hard enough. We blame ourselves because so many event planners, so many event professionals, we're motivated, we're driven, we're ambitious, we want to succeed, we have achievement addiction, we're maybe perfectionists. All of these things can help us be successful, but they're also the very things that take us down. And so it can be tricky. I mean, for me, I had achievement addiction and so I just wanted to keep succeeding and accomplishing and achieving and yet that becomes exhausting. And when your whole entire identity is wrapped up in what you're accomplishing and achieving, you're never happy. Nothing's ever good enough. Nothing's ever bigger, better, fast enough. I mean, we are always searching for the next thing and so it eventually will take you down. Magdalina Atanassova: So how did you recover? Erin Stafford: Let's say I'm still recovering. What is ever fully recovered? You know, I think when you have this inherent sense of like motivation and drive, it's really hard to ever just not be that person, you know. That's why so much of what I talk about in my keynotes is about making small micro shifts. No massive overachiever who works a million hours a week is gonna just instantly stop and have some three hour morning routine that involves saunas and cold plunges and chores, journaling and all this stuff. Like it doesn't happen. You know, it's small, slow little adjustments over time that really make a huge difference. Magdalina Atanassova: And your background is quite colorful and you've gone through so just like my. Erin Stafford: Language. Magdalina Atanassova: You'Ve gone through complexity, including the largest healthcare personnel deployment in history. So high pressure situation. Yeah, kind of. Right? Erin Stafford: There's no kinda about it. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. So how did you sustain your energy and clarity back then and how do you do it now? Erin Stafford: It was very challenging. I mean, I had never lived through a global pandemic before. Most people probably watching, listening, have never lived through a global pandemic until, you know, 2020. And so it was new and we were already. The company I worked for was the massive healthcare staffing company and we were already this hyper growth company. And then when Covid hit, we were off to the races. And it grew tremendously even during that time. And so it was hard. I mean, I think for anybody going through a hypergrowth situation, you are truly making stuff up as you go because it's never happened before and you're growing so quickly and the needs are so real. And for what we were doing, people are dying, you know, and so it just felt so real and we had to address it immediately. And so it was very high pressure, high stakes. It was tough. I mean, I can't say I have some per. I mean, a lot of wine. That's the wrong answer, by the way, but a lot of wine to begin with. And then I was like, okay, this is not going to solve the problem. This is only going to postpone the problem. I think, you know, thank God I had amazing colleagues to. To lean on. And I know so many people in the pre. In the events industry, we have incredible colleagues, people that care so much. But I think it's also, again, just sort of these micro breaks and really trying to step away for a minute because we were working like 20 hour days, seven days a week. It was really intense. And I had a boss, my c. The CEO who I reported to, who was somebody who really demanded excellence. There was nothing short of excellence that we could do. And I know so many people have experienced that as well. Whether it's a client and you're putting on an event, it has to be excellent, absolutely perfect. Otherwise they go crazy. Like, I get it, you know, and it's hard. You feel like everything has to be perfect. And so for me, a lot of the things that me and my team and all of our nurses would do was just like taking a break, whether that is a three minute break, whether you're just going to the bathroom and you're like, you know what? I'm just gonna sit in here for a few more minutes, like, this is the only chance I get to be alone, you know, like, however, you can carve out those little moments of alone time where you can just take a deep breath. Maybe you don't want to do that in the bathroom, but like where you can just take a deep breath, walk away. If you're refilling your water bottle, like can you just take three deep breaths while you're refilling your water bottle? When you go to the bathroom, can you take an extra five minute break when you're, you know, eating your lunch or you're microwaving something like for those three minutes, something's getting microwaved, can you just use that time to like take deep breaths, inhale, exhale, like those are the things you need to do. And I get it. When event plan, like when you're in the middle of an event, there is no downtime, there is so much stuff happening. So you've gotta eke out and carve out those little tiny moments, those like I call them, pockets of peace. Like those little moments, pockets of peace where you can just find a moment to re, catch your breath and like recharge for a second. Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: And in this industry, we definitely were busy as a badge of honor. Erin Stafford: A hundred lots of industries, not just events. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. You speak about success not only looking good, but also feeling good. Erin Stafford: Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: So can you elaborate a bit more on that? Erin Stafford: Yeah, I mean, I think where that comes from is I, I speak to a lot of high achievers, a lot of leaders, executives, I speak to a lot of sales teams, people that are really driven and on paper they may have lives that look incredible, they're making a lot of money, they're living flashy lives, they're going to cool events, they're doing interesting things, they're meeting with famous people. Like on paper it can look really good, but they may be the most miserable people you've ever met. And so that's what's really hard is like you see all these high achievers that I work with and speak to and like they have all the things, but they're miserable or their relationships suck or their health is starting to fail them. And so that's what I really talk about, creating lives that not only look good but feel good. Because me and everyone else I talked, we want to continue to kick butt and achieve at the highest levels, but do it in a way where we're not ruining our health and our relationships at the same time. And so that's what I mean by create a life that not only looks good but feels good. Magdalina Atanassova: How can we redefine that, do you think? Erin Stafford: Yeah, I think so much of it is redefining what success looks like and it not just being money and job title. You know, society rewards people for Working hard. Society rewards people for burning out. They're the ones that seem to be getting promoted and making more money, the people that are working around the clock. But as I just was talking about, you know, money and success, don't get me wrong, money is great. We all want to be making good money. I am not against making great money. We all want to be making boatloads of money. But like, how do we do it in a way where that's not our whole entire personality, you know, and so redefining things. I know for me, when I was at my last corporate job, before I started speaking full time, it was really about, like, flexibility. I remember being so jealous of people that could, like, go to yoga on a Tuesday afternoon, you know, where I'm still like, trapped at my desk. And so when I eventually ended up leaving my last corporate job, having a role that was flexible was one of the things that was really important to me. And I have that now. So for me, that was part of what success looked like. For me, it's spending more time with my family. My parents are getting older, you know, thank God. They're still pretty healthy, but, like, they're getting older. They're not going to be here forever. I want to be able to spend at least one weekend a month with my parents. And so that, to me, is part of what success looks like to me. Have I been away too long? Am I making that a priority? So really just evaluating the different parts of your life and, and looking at success not just through the lens of money and job title, because that is a recipe for burnout. Magdalina Atanassova: Do you think it's also a matter of boundaries that you put around your work life in, in. In your corporate role? Erin Stafford: Yeah. A hundred. Short answer. Yes. The short answer is yes. I mean, boundaries are hard, though, especially when you may be a people pleaser. And I would imagine as a lot of events professionals, you know, the client is always right. You want to make this event perfect for that client. And so you're like, yes, of course we can do that, you know, and then you're like, how the hell are we going to do that? I mean, it's the nature of the beast. And so, yeah, it's hard to put those boundaries in. But I also talk about, you know, if for some reason you're in a phase where you can't have a lot of boundaries at work right now, where maybe you're in the middle of some crazy event or you've got a really demanding client, how can you put some of those boundaries around Your home life, you know, whether it's getting to bed at a certain time, whether it's hiring some extra help if you're able to during those really busy seasons, and if you can't hire them to pay for them, can you get some friends or family to help with certain things? Can your kids, are they old enough? Can they step in and help do some more? You know, because we don't always have complete autonomy to decide whatever the hell we want to do. Like, yes, I get it. We all have seasons of life and seasons of work that are just hard to deal with. So where can you create some boundary? If it's not at work, can you create it at home? And if it's not at home, can you create a few more boundaries at work? Magdalina Atanassova: And you often speak about purpose. Right. So what are your tips in redefining your own purpose and why you kind of ended up in that situation? Erin Stafford: In what situation? Magdalina Atanassova: Like in. In your company, in your. In that project, in whatever may be happening to you. Right. It's happening on our own board, which we manage, and we move all the chess pieces on that board. So how can we redefine the purpose and make sure that we are in the right spot that really satisfies us and ourselves? Erin Stafford: I think purpose is a word that gets tossed around a lot. And I think a lot of us are sitting at home being like, what's my purpose? You know, like, I just think it feels so big. And people think they need to have like this big grand purpose in life of like, I'm gonna save all the starving children. I'm gonna stop war. I'm gonna do all these things. Like, yes, please do all that. That would be amazing. But like, you don't have to have some like, life altering purpose to still be happy. And also our purpose changes, our interests change, our priorities change. As we get older, as we move through different seasons of life, as. As we have different jobs, like, our purpose and our priorities and our interests change. And I think that's totally okay. I have changed careers, like seven different times. I have done everything from being a celebrity stylist in Hollywood to a jewelry designer, to a marketing professional, to a keynote speaker, like, it's okay. We can have different purposes. And I think we don't. I think instead of asking ourselves, like, what's my purpose? And am I living my purpose? Which feels like such a daunting question that I think a lot of people would struggle with, I think the real question to ask is just like, what makes me happy right now? What's lighting me up. What are the things I'm avoiding? Because that'll tell you real quick what is not your purpose and what is not your interest? Like, are you avoiding a whole bunch of things at work and at home that ain't your purpose? What are the things that light you up? What are the things that you're curious about? What are the things that sound fun to you? Where do you want to spend more of your time? If you're looking at your calendar, what are the things on your calendar that you look forward to most? Maybe it's cheering your kid on from the sidelines at soccer practice. Maybe it's doing the Creative Brainstorm meetings at work. Like, I don't know. But those are the questions I think that are more helpful to answer right now than just like, what's my purpose? Which can feel so nebulous and so, so big and so daunting. Magdalina Atanassova: How are you protecting your energy? And how can we build those little sources of energy, those batteries? Erin Stafford: I mean, I have a lot of energy. If you guys saw me on stage yesterday, you know, I have naturally have a lot of energy somehow. I was born like this. I genuinely have a lot of energy. But I will say because I am such an extrovert and I exude so much energy throughout my day, I crash and burn at night. Like it is a rarity that I am awake past 8:30pm I just, I'm like Cinderella. Like the street lights go on. I gotta go to bed, I'm exhausted. So I know that sleep is a huge thing for me and I really try to prioritize my sleep and I, I always sleep with an eye mask and earplugs and all of this stuff to really help make sure I get good sleep. And now my ADD is gone. And what was the question again? Magdalina Atanassova: How can we create those moments to. Erin Stafford: Protect and protecting our energy? There we go. Sorry. Woo. Sleep. Obviously that was the point I was making. There is really making sure that you prioritize your sleep. But everyone gets fired up and gets energized by different things. You know, for introverts, being in a, in an environment where you are around a ton of people, it's going to drain your energy. So how can you carve out those moments where you can recalibrate and recharge your energy, you know, and also just like, what are those things that fire you up? What are those things that get you excited? What are the things that drain you? Can you do an energy audit of your day or your week? You know, go back through your calendar, go back through your meetings, your zooms. Like, what did I do this week? Which ones fired me up? Which ones got me excited? Which ones drained me? I realize we can't get rid of all the things that drain us. If only. That would be amazing. Life's not like that. We all have to do **** that we don't want to do. But like, how can we limit maybe the time that we spend doing energy draining activities? Every job, even if you're self employed, running your own business, you have energy draining activities. How can you limit those? Can you outsource them? Can you hire somebody to do them? Can you get someone else on your team to do them because they're better at it than you or they enjoy it more than you? Can you carve out those little moments of peace, pockets of peace, like moments of quiet where you can just recharge. I mean, energy, it's different for everybody. Magdalina Atanassova: That's true. I'm definitely, I'm an ambivert. So I'm like, after one of those events, like we are now at convening day, I would need to hibernate for a week. Erin Stafford: Yeah, a lot of people are like that, you know, and if it's not a week, it's. It's a few days or a few hours, you know, and maybe it's just not going to the happy hour because you're like, I'm tapped out. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. Erin Stafford: You know, I'm not trying to be a party pooper. I just can't talk anymore. You know, you walk around the exhibit hall, there's a lot going on. There's people everywhere, there's noise, there's things to look at and experience and puppies and all of this stuff. Like, it's a lot. So how do you recover from that? Maybe it's not going to the party, not staying up so late, which, yes, you're missing out on an amazing event, but it's also like, okay, but then if you go to that event tonight, are you going to be drained and useless all day tomorrow? Magdalina Atanassova: Take your pick. Just go and hug a puppy in the puppy park. Erin Stafford: Right. But some people get so fired up by being out late and like meeting all those people and going to the things. Great. But then they might also be the people that sleep in and don't go to the main sessions the next day because they're sleeping in and they're tired. Like, we all have to figure out what works for us. Magdalina Atanassova: One of the big takeaways for me from your keynote was the moment with the Socks. Erin Stafford: Yeah, everyone's been loving the socks. Magdalina Atanassova: Exactly. You want to actually explain for the listeners who have not watched it? Erin Stafford: Yeah. So there's this great quote by Coco Chanel and she says, before you leave the house, take one thing off. And she's talking about dressing with accessories and that less is more. And so I say, before you start your week, take one thing off. So what is one thing you can take off your calendar? And then I make a joke and say it's like a game of calendar strip poker, you know, so you don't start with the most important pieces of clothing, like your jacket or your shirt. No, you start with the little things like the socks of your calendar. Those little things that drain your time, your energy, your resources. So how can you just take one of those off? And then I go on to explain that it's not necessarily about taking a whole entire thing off, like an entire meeting. Oftentimes we can't. But can we make that 60 minute meeting a 45 minute meeting or a 50 minute meeting? Most meetings do not need to be 60 minutes. They just sort of default in your outlook calendar to 60 minutes. There's, as I always say, I'm like, there's always some moron waffling on at the end, talking about stuff you've already talked about, or asking a bunch of random questions or BSing about something that you don't care about. It's like, dude, shut up, let's move on with our lives, you know, so like that in itself, just making a 60 minute meeting, a 45 minute meeting is taking something off your calendar, you know, and all of those little things, while on their own, may not sound like they're going to like change your life. Added up over time, they truly will give you some time back in your calendar. Magdalina Atanassova: What do you think are the socks at events? So you're at an event, you are an international speaker, you go, you, you have keynotes, every word. What are the socks that we can take away? Erin Stafford: For me or for you? Both. So for me, a couple of the things are like, oftentimes when I'm coming to speak, I'll be invited to a dinner or a happy hour. The night before that I speak. I almost always say no to that. Not because I don't want to go, or I'm like too cool. And I'm like, no, I'm not going to go to your thing. No, I'm honored to be invited. But the night before a talk, I've usually just flown in from either another event or from where I live in San Diego. I'm tired, and I know I'm getting paid to show up and deliver on stage. And so if I'm at a dinner the night before, I'm expending a lot of energy. I'm usually talking. Cause it's always loud in there. My voice is feeling strained. I'm not going to sleep as well. And I want to make sure that when you are hiring me for an event, that I am showing up as my absolute best self when I'm on stage where I need to deliver. And so for me, that's a sock that I take off, where it's like, oh, I'd love to come. I'm not trying to be a diva. I just want to make sure that I am managing my energy so that when I show up on stage, I'm my best self. So for me, that's a sock that I take off. But as an attendee or as an event planner, there's so many other socks that you could take off as an attendee. Maybe it's not skip the whole happy hour. Maybe it's go to the happy hour for 30 minutes and leave. No one says you have to stay for the whole entire time. You've showed up, you've made an appearance, you've schmoozed with a few people. Go home, you know, go back to your room. Like that can be a sock you take off your calendar. Maybe it's. I mean, I know you guys have so many incredible breakouts here. Maybe you don't go to every single one. Maybe you go to two. And then you take a break for the next period that the session's happening. And you don't talk to anybody. You just go get a coffee and sit by yourself. And here's the real trick. Put your earphones on. People will think that you're, like, on a call or listening to something. You don't have to be listening to squat. You just being left the hell alone. Like, it's finding those moments to recharge. Those are all little socks we can take off our calendars when we're in these busy environments. Magdalina Atanassova: I love it. Erin Stafford: I could rattle off more, but those are just a few examples, if you want. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, go for it. Let's talk about burnout. Do you think that the conversation in a corporate setting has evolved, has changed in a positive way, or not really. Erin Stafford: I think there's been a lot of positive changes. I think especially since COVID people are talking about it a lot more. It's. There's less stigma around It. It's a more popular conversation. I mean, I think the word burnout has always been there. People just didn't call it that. We talked a lot about work life balance. We talked a lot about just being exhausted. You know, I don't think we were maybe always using the terminology of burnout, but ever since the pandemic, I think people have been talking about it a lot more, which is great. The more awareness there is, the more we're talking about it, the more people feel less shame experiencing it. Do I think it's like, solved? No, absolutely not. Do I think leaders are more aware of it? Yes. Do I think there have been some great changes? Absolutely. I think a lot more healthcare is. Is covering mental health now. I think a lot more organizations are including mental health benefits in their healthcare as well as things like, you know, access to various apps and services and programs to help with mindfulness and meditation and therapy and all of these different things, which is great. I think a lot of organizations are talking about it more. And I think there's also been more awareness, not just around burnout statistics, but around the cost of burnout. It costs US businesses over $300 billion a year just in sick time, lack of productivity, et cetera, et cetera. So I think there's. There's a lot more awareness around it. And I think anytime we're having a conversation about peak performance, we need to really be looking at it through a lens of, like, how do we sustain peak performance? I know so many event planners want to have sales and leadership speakers and people that talk about excellence and peak performance, and that's amazing. That's what I talk about as well. But it's how do we sustain that peak performance? Because it's one thing to hit the goal, it's another thing to do it again the next year and do it every quarter and every month. So how do we sustain that peak performance without ruining our health, our relationships, and burning out? That's really what I talk about. And that's like the crux of what I think we all need to be talking about. Magdalina Atanassova: What's one mindset shift that you think we can adopt, all of us to move in that direction? Erin Stafford: I think one of the biggest mindset shifts for leaders, for high achievers, for salespeople, is really this understanding of, like, I don't have to do everything perfectly. I talked about this and shared this on stage yesterday during the Q and A. But, like, how can we create a list of just good enough? You know, because most of our good enough is Everybody else's like freaking fantastic and fabulous. So if we can just look at our calendars, our schedules every week, every month and really figure out like, what are the few things that we have to do perfectly that really need to be top notch excellence. Okay, great, do those great. But like, how can we put other things in a category of this is just going to be good enough and really understanding that our idea of good enough is most people's idea of fabulous and that it's fine, we don't have to kill ourselves trying to do everything perfectly all day, every day, because that's a recipe for burnout. Magdalina Atanassova: I love how you put a forward looking aspect to creating something that's good enough. Because I've always thought of it in the aspect of, you know, I'm working on this project, it's here, is it good enough? Erin Stafford: Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: Which kind of. It's a different. Right, you're in it, so you're, you're looking at it, observing it and you're like, okay, I think I've reached a good enough state. Yeah, I don't have the resources, time and so forth to continue. Can I ship it like this? Erin Stafford: Well, another thing to think about is like, and I used to tell my, my marketing team this, they'd be all flustered about some ad campaign or something. I'd be like, listen, nobody ever died of advertising, okay? No one's going to die if this press release goes out an hour later. Okay? We're gonna be fine. You know, and same with events. Like, okay, obviously maybe there are some events where someone might die, but like in general, if the puppy thing turns up an hour later, I realize that's not ideal, but does it really matter in the grand scheme of things? No. So it's like, okay, calm down, chill out, let's not let that bother us. Like, it's good enough, you know, I love it. Magdalina Atanassova: I've had so many situations with marketing when they're like, this email has to go out in that hour and I'm like, nobody is waiting for it on the other side. Erin Stafford: Yes. Magdalina Atanassova: They're not sitting. Yeah. Erin Stafford: Who cares if it comes out 20 minutes later with no typos or you send it 20 minutes earlier and you're like, oh, whoops, we should have read it one more time, you know? Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, exactly. Erin Stafford: The photo's pixelated or it's cropped weird or whatever, you know? Yeah, no one died of advertising. Like, it's going to be fine. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, I love it. Let's talk about AI. What do you think of AI? Is it helping us? Is it adding more pressure and you know, that strive to continue to perform on a higher level. Can it help us be better without really overburdening us? Erin Stafford: I think, I mean, I think AI is great. Like, it has certainly helped me and certainly helped everybody I know in every capacity. I mean, from asking questions to getting clarity on things, to figuring out how to do something without having to read so much. Like, I think it's fantastic in terms of like, streamlining activities, getting help, getting a proofreader. You know, I think there's, there's. I can't say there's only upside. Of course there's downside from. Of course there's downside. There's like dark, nasty, horrible people doing terrible things. Like, there's always a dark side somewhere. But like, I think in general, it's only going to help us overall. It's going to streamline things. It's going to make our jobs easier. It's going to help with proofreading, it's going to help with competitive analysis. It's going to help with pitches. You know, if you're an event planner and you're pitching a client, like, throw your proposal into AI and be like, how can I make this stronger? What am I missing? What questions are they going to come back with? What are they going to ask me that I should prepare for? How are my competitors pitching them? Where? What are my blind spots? What does this CEO care about? What does this client care about? Like, there are so many ways that we can use it to our advantage as an event planner. Pitching clients and working with clients. Like, I just think there's a lot of help we can do and not just in the, like, write me an email that says this. That's a very transactional way. But I think you can also use it as a real, like, strategy thinking partner of like, where are your blind spots? What are you not thinking about? Questions are they going to ask, how can I be better in this capacity? Magdalina Atanassova: But do you think it adds pressure to all those that are a little bit afraid of it and not sure how to use it? Erin Stafford: I. I guess I don't see that it adding pressure. I just see it as a way that it can help people and it can make their lives easier. I mean, maybe if you're like my mom's age and scared of computers, but I mean, she doesn't even like text messaging, so AI is out of the question. You know, like, so there's only so much we can help you with here, folks. You know, like, if you're not even comfortable text messaging. Sure. Maybe sit AI out, you know, go to the Apple Store and learn how to text message first and then we'll come back with the AI training, you know. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. So don't stress. Erin Stafford: Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: And the funny thing is, AI can help you use AI, so a hundred. Erin Stafford: Percent, if you don't know how to use it, go to ChatGPT. Be like, how do I use you most effectively? You know? Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. And they're coming up with very good solutions and practical ways. Erin Stafford: Dude, ChatGPT is my boy. Like, I feel like he's. I. I don't know. Mine's a guy. I just assume it's like my guy friend, you know? Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. It depends what kind of. You can attach the personality right now. Right. And if you use the read function for it to read for you, you can have different voices. Erin Stafford: Yeah. Oh, I don't do that, actually. Maybe I should. Magdalina Atanassova: Oh, I've done that. My ChatGPT speaks as an old British lady. Oh, I love it. And the weirdest. Erin Stafford: How very Downton Abbey. Magdalina Atanassova: I know. Erin Stafford: Yeah. And the weird Dame Judi Dench reading to you or something. It's Maggie Smith. Magdalina Atanassova: It's very funny. But the, the weirdest thing for me is when it adds breathing in and out. Erin Stafford: Oh. Magdalina Atanassova: And that freaks me out a little bit. Erin Stafford: Like, sounds like a real person. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. Because it's like, yes. Why you are. Erin Stafford: What's with the big dramatic sigh? Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: No, you're technology. Don't breathe at me. It's weird, but yes, you can do that. It's fun. Erin Stafford: Yeah. Magdalina Atanassova: You can listen to the different. Erin Stafford: I'll try that. Yeah. Love it. Magdalina Atanassova: So, looking ahead, what do you think will define sustainable success for leaders and organizations? Erin Stafford: To me, sustainable success is all about are you able and willing and wanting to continue to keep going. Because it's one thing to put on an incredible event, but if it kills everybody in executing it, it's not a success. Yes, the client might be happy. Yes, it may have been beautiful. Yes, the food may have been great. Yes, the attendees were happy and you got raving survey results. But if you and your staff are absolutely destroyed afterwards, and not only are you like wanting to call out sick, but you want to quit your job, that is not a success. That's not helpful. That's not helping anybody. So it's really about making sure that recovery is part of the KPIs that you're measuring. Because it can't just be about survey results from the attendees. It's gotta be, is, are you and your staff still wanting to do this again and put on another event and do it well. Magdalina Atanassova: I love it. Was there anything we didn't mention? We definitely should before we wrap up. Erin Stafford: That they can find me on erinstaffer.com that I'm always available for speaking engagements and podcasts and here to help support you answer questions, be of service. I'd love to connect with all of. Magdalina Atanassova: You and I'll definitely put the link to your book as well in the show notes so you can reach out. Erin Stafford: Sounds good. Thank you. Magdalina Atanassova: Thank you for being on the podcast. Erin Stafford: Thanks so much for having me. Appreciate it. Magdalina Atanassova: Remember to subscribe to the Convene Podcast on your favorite listening platform to stay updated with our latest episodes. For further industry insights from the Convene team, head over to PCMA.org/convene. My name is Maggie. Stay inspired. Keep inspiring. And until next time.