Latest / Under the Docs / Fahrenheit 9/11 (2004): War, Lies & the Business of Fear | Under the Docs 015

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Fahrenheit 9/11 (2004): War, Lies & the Business of Fear | Under the Docs 015 · Under the Docs

0:00
Speaker 1: When it came out. I just remember thinking, this is
0:03
Speaker 1: the whitewash version. This is the the socially acceptable way
0:07
Speaker 1: to criticize Bush without talking about scull and bones, without
0:11
Speaker 1: talking about bohemian grove and inside jobs sort of narratives.
0:15
Speaker 1: This one follows the official narratives, and then he just
0:18
Speaker 1: blames it on the usual suspects.
0:27
Speaker 2: The Doux. Yeah, under the doing looks funny.
0:40
Speaker 3: Under the Dux, the Dux yeap un the Dox.
0:58
Speaker 4: On the.
1:10
Speaker 1: Welcome back to under the Docks. We're doing another one
1:13
Speaker 1: more Michael Moore movie for this month, and then the
1:17
Speaker 1: Michael Moore movie month is over. I don't know if
1:20
Speaker 1: I'm excited or not. I think that I've had my
1:22
Speaker 1: fill of Michael Moore. What about you?
1:25
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that more madness aol thing is kind
1:28
Speaker 5: of wearing on me now, Like.
1:31
Speaker 1: Whoever hacked into that can just keep it at this point.
1:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's all yours, Bud.
1:36
Speaker 1: This particular movie that we're going to talk about is
1:40
Speaker 1: Fahrenheit nine to eleven and came out in two thousand
1:42
Speaker 1: and four, again directed narrated by Michael Moore, And I
1:46
Speaker 1: have to correct myself. In the last episode we were
1:49
Speaker 1: talking about Bowling for Columbine and that that was the
1:52
Speaker 1: most successful documentary of all it's actually this one. This
1:56
Speaker 1: is the movie that was most successful of all time.
1:58
Speaker 1: This is the one that made two hundred million dollars.
2:01
Speaker 1: It also won at the con Film Festival, which is
2:04
Speaker 1: absolutely unheard of for a documentary, let alone a political documentary.
2:09
Speaker 1: But just to throw in that, even Bowling for Columbine
2:12
Speaker 1: was made on like a three million dollar budget and
2:14
Speaker 1: it pulled in sixty million. So the point still stands
2:18
Speaker 1: that it was an absolute trendsetter in that regard. This
2:22
Speaker 1: is just the biggest Michael Moore movie that he ever created,
2:25
Speaker 1: and in fact, spoiler alert, he never really climbs back
2:29
Speaker 1: up to this level of praise and hype for any
2:33
Speaker 1: of his movies going forward. This, this one in particular,
2:35
Speaker 1: Fahrenheit nine to eleven is the big one for Michael Moore.
2:40
Speaker 3: This is his peak.
2:41
Speaker 5: He peaks out right here and then it kind of
2:44
Speaker 5: everything bottoms out. That's why we kind of like stopped
2:46
Speaker 5: right here, so you could probably stop right here on
2:49
Speaker 5: his documentaries as well.
2:51
Speaker 1: He peaked and then he crashed. The premise of Fahrenheit
2:55
Speaker 1: nine to eleven is that it's Michael Moore investigating the
2:59
Speaker 1: Bush administration's response to nine to eleven. They talk about
3:03
Speaker 1: the war in Iraq, and then they talk about corporate
3:05
Speaker 1: interests behind the scenes that are connecting these dots. He
3:09
Speaker 1: plays up a little bit more of that fear narrative
3:13
Speaker 1: that the media was feeding into from the previous bone
3:16
Speaker 1: for Columbine, and he connects that with oil and politics
3:20
Speaker 1: and basically just the Bush dynasty in general. So if
3:25
Speaker 1: you haven't seen this movie, I do recommend it. I
3:29
Speaker 1: don't know, it's actually it's a hard one, just because
3:33
Speaker 1: I think I saw this after I had already seen
3:36
Speaker 1: Loose Change or at least some other nine to eleven documentaries.
3:39
Speaker 1: So when I saw the Michael Moore version when it
3:42
Speaker 1: came out, I just remember thinking, this is the whitewash version.
3:46
Speaker 3: This is the.
3:48
Speaker 1: Socially acceptable way to criticize Bush without talking about scull
3:52
Speaker 1: and bones, without talking about bohemian grove and inside jobs
3:56
Speaker 1: sort of narratives. This one follows the official narratives and
4:00
Speaker 1: then it just blames it on the usual suspects from
4:02
Speaker 1: sort of of a political spectrum.
4:05
Speaker 5: Yeah, and this came out before Loose Change, So I
4:09
Speaker 5: saw this originally first, so for me it was like
4:12
Speaker 5: a mind blower.
4:13
Speaker 3: But once you.
4:14
Speaker 5: See loose change, they're like, ah, well that's cool. It's
4:17
Speaker 5: just that it's the Red team's bad, just like a
4:21
Speaker 5: lot of Alex Jones stuff is like, oh, the Blue
4:23
Speaker 5: Team's bad. It's it's that biased of political parties instead
4:27
Speaker 5: of actually exploring what happened.
4:36
Speaker 1: Plotting the course of this movie not the easiest because
4:40
Speaker 1: it jumps around quite a lot, but there were five
4:43
Speaker 1: that really stood out to me. The first one was
4:47
Speaker 1: focusing on how the Bush family had these deep financial
4:51
Speaker 1: and personal ties to the bin Laden family and to
4:54
Speaker 1: just Saudi Arabia in general, and about how after nine
4:58
Speaker 1: to eleven happened, they shut down all air traffic. You
5:02
Speaker 1: were not allowed to just be in the sky unless
5:05
Speaker 1: you had some sort of an official reason to do
5:07
Speaker 1: so and were personally cleared, basically by Department of Defense.
5:12
Speaker 1: And wouldn't you know that, out of all those people
5:15
Speaker 1: that got grounded, one hundred and forty two Saudis they
5:19
Speaker 1: got past that band and they were able to fly
5:22
Speaker 1: the heck out of this country. So he makes a
5:25
Speaker 1: really sort of specific claim, or at least an implication
5:29
Speaker 1: here that Bush was colluding with Saudi Arabia, that Saudi
5:33
Speaker 1: Arabia had some other deeper connections that were never advertised,
5:37
Speaker 1: never reported on, and that the media kind of played
5:41
Speaker 1: lapdog to the Bush dynasty as this was happening, and
5:45
Speaker 1: that maybe it was Saudi Arabia behind it. He all
5:48
Speaker 1: but says that particular claim. And this is one of
5:52
Speaker 1: the few Michael Moore documentaries that I've ever seen where
5:55
Speaker 1: he does make some very specific claims on what he believes.
5:59
Speaker 1: I'm not used to seeing that. Usually he just floats
6:02
Speaker 1: these questions and these weasel words like well, some people say,
6:06
Speaker 1: but in this one he makes the claims, and.
6:09
Speaker 5: At that time that was probably one of the more
6:11
Speaker 5: controversial things to say about the Saudis.
6:14
Speaker 3: He brings it up quite a bit.
6:16
Speaker 5: I would say that in the bin Laden connection with
6:19
Speaker 5: Bush with the Saudis, that that's probably the bulk of
6:22
Speaker 5: what this movie is.
6:24
Speaker 1: And he brings up the Carlisle group to his own credit,
6:28
Speaker 1: like now we're getting into the Alex Jones territory. Man,
6:32
Speaker 1: he was just one step away from mentioning like the
6:35
Speaker 1: Rothschilds or something at a certain point, and now we're
6:38
Speaker 1: just getting back in the money Masters would I would
6:41
Speaker 1: love to get Michael Moore's opinion on money Masters, but
6:44
Speaker 1: that's for another time. Another key claim that he makes
6:49
Speaker 1: in this movie was that the bin Laden family members
6:53
Speaker 1: were flown directly out of the US, like I just mentioned,
6:57
Speaker 1: But the real premise is that he does and say
7:00
Speaker 1: at any point that Bush planned nine to eleven. But
7:04
Speaker 1: he keeps asking these questions of why did we invade Iraq?
7:08
Speaker 1: You know, this is a country that perceivably had no
7:12
Speaker 1: real connection to the attackers. We don't get into the
7:16
Speaker 1: weapons of mass destruction stuff with Colon Powell, and they're
7:20
Speaker 1: pointing out, well, here's where we think, you know, the
7:22
Speaker 1: weapons grade missiles are, and here's where we think. They
7:25
Speaker 1: don't really get into any of that in particular, They
7:28
Speaker 1: just get into that the Bush family knew that there
7:31
Speaker 1: was something more going on, and that there were lots
7:34
Speaker 1: of other interests behind the scenes, and that it's kind
7:37
Speaker 1: of spread between them, but that the bin Laden relatives,
7:41
Speaker 1: in addition to just a bunch of various saudis that
7:44
Speaker 1: they were directly connected to the Bush family in so
7:48
Speaker 1: many different ways. And again, if you are an absolute normy, right,
7:52
Speaker 1: if you're going into this just because whoa, I heard
7:55
Speaker 1: this was the most popular documentary ever released, and it's
7:57
Speaker 1: making all these oh it wanted to con film fest. Yeah,
8:00
Speaker 1: I guess I gotta see this. Oh it hates Bush,
8:03
Speaker 1: I guess I gotta go and see this. Right, there
8:04
Speaker 1: were so many reasons that someone might have gotten off
8:09
Speaker 1: the fence where normally be like, oh, I don't watch
8:11
Speaker 1: documentaries or I'm not really into politics, they might actually
8:14
Speaker 1: watch this and now you're walking out like wait what
8:17
Speaker 1: but Bush family and we trained the ben Laden's and
8:21
Speaker 1: they were able to fly out of the country. Like
8:23
Speaker 1: that's kind of weird. It doesn't get to Loose Change
8:27
Speaker 1: level of weird, but it definitely is sort of like
8:29
Speaker 1: a baby step towards that.
8:32
Speaker 5: And again, if you saw this in two thousand and
8:35
Speaker 5: four or two thousand and five, anything pre Loose Change,
8:39
Speaker 5: it was a little bit mind blowing because nobody else
8:41
Speaker 5: was talking about these connections.
8:44
Speaker 3: Right.
8:44
Speaker 5: It's it's getting into that little borderline, like you said
8:47
Speaker 5: Alex Jones territory where he's like, ooh, this connection with
8:50
Speaker 5: this guy, and where you're kind of like he stops
8:52
Speaker 5: it at like the ben Laddens in some of the
8:55
Speaker 5: oil companies like the Carlisle Group and Hallenberg and all
8:59
Speaker 5: that stuff. But it's it screeches to a halt, but
9:03
Speaker 5: it's like he's baby stepping and he's like almost there.
9:06
Speaker 5: It's like you're right on the You're right there, man,
9:08
Speaker 5: just push it a little over.
9:11
Speaker 1: He makes another really big claim, and surprise, he goes
9:16
Speaker 1: back to Flint, Michigan, because of course he does, because
9:19
Speaker 1: it's Michael Moore. But he kind of makes this claim
9:22
Speaker 1: about how it's poor and working class Americans that are
9:26
Speaker 1: relied on to fight in these wars, and that politicians
9:30
Speaker 1: and you know, business moguls, they are not the ones
9:33
Speaker 1: that send their kids off to war. Or you might
9:36
Speaker 1: have just heard the song Fortunate Son by Creeden's Clearwater Revival,
9:41
Speaker 1: which basically says the exact same thing that Michael Moore
9:44
Speaker 1: does in this movie. But it is a poignan enough
9:48
Speaker 1: claim to bring up for anyone that hasn't already come
9:50
Speaker 1: across this realization is just spelling out the most obvious
9:55
Speaker 1: stuff too. I guess a very wide crowd about this,
9:58
Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean, this is feels like objective truth.
10:01
Speaker 1: And he asked this question over and over all these
10:03
Speaker 1: politicians that were pushing for war. How many of them
10:08
Speaker 1: had actual sons and daughters that joined service, And there
10:10
Speaker 1: was only one of them, And of all the different
10:12
Speaker 1: people that he looked into, only one person. And if
10:15
Speaker 1: I had a guess, I didn't do the deep dive
10:17
Speaker 1: on this one. But they probably got a decent administrative
10:21
Speaker 1: or like an officer level job. They probably didn't go
10:24
Speaker 1: directly into infantry. I'm just guessing, though maybe I'm totally wrong,
10:27
Speaker 1: and they did well.
10:29
Speaker 5: If they did, it was like the black sheep of
10:31
Speaker 5: the family, right, like I get him into the front lines.
10:33
Speaker 3: We're trying to get rid of them.
10:35
Speaker 5: And one of the points I thought was funny that
10:38
Speaker 5: you said about the songs is in that time, remember
10:40
Speaker 5: the System of a Down came out in two thousand
10:43
Speaker 5: and one, so they were already saying this too, even
10:46
Speaker 5: this that that message had been revamped of like why
10:49
Speaker 5: do they always send the poor? Right? And he kind
10:52
Speaker 5: of just echoes that throughout the film or towards the end.
10:55
Speaker 1: More what and speaking of the Bush dynasty again, some
11:00
Speaker 1: that Moore doesn't get into. And I wish he would
11:03
Speaker 1: have just mentioned scull and bones at one point. I
11:05
Speaker 1: would have given him so much more credit for that.
11:07
Speaker 1: But if you look into even the history of scull
11:10
Speaker 1: and Bones, you can see that during that time, the
11:13
Speaker 1: Bush family they use the college in order to elevate themselves.
11:18
Speaker 1: If you were to get drafted or how to join war,
11:21
Speaker 1: then you can go in as an officer, and a
11:23
Speaker 1: lot of them would go in as flyboys or go
11:26
Speaker 1: in as pilots. And there's so many of these Scullum
11:29
Speaker 1: Bones members that join the military as pilots because they
11:32
Speaker 1: technically never have to get into hand in hand combat
11:36
Speaker 1: or in some of the dangerous positions. We're not talking
11:38
Speaker 1: about fighter pilots or bombers. We're just talking about if
11:42
Speaker 1: you're in the sky and doing just sort of like
11:45
Speaker 1: the clerical version of flying things around. It's just another
11:49
Speaker 1: way that high ranking politicians or business people can get
11:53
Speaker 1: their kids even through the military without ever really putting
11:56
Speaker 1: them in any sort of direct danger, so they don't
11:58
Speaker 1: end up like Pat Tillman or thing. The one other
12:04
Speaker 1: of the points made in this movie is how the
12:07
Speaker 1: media stopped doing their job and became implicit. They became
12:12
Speaker 1: cheerleaders for the Iraq War as a whole. Like they
12:17
Speaker 1: they pushed forth all the same narratives the government was
12:20
Speaker 1: putting out. They basically folded over for the Bush White
12:24
Speaker 1: House and did anything he wanted them to. I remembered
12:27
Speaker 1: a little different I went through that period. I actually
12:29
Speaker 1: remember Bush being openly called hitler on you know, public stations,
12:36
Speaker 1: Daily Show and Colbert Report, not being excluded or even
12:41
Speaker 1: unique to them, just like on regular that a lot
12:43
Speaker 1: of the new stations were kind of gloating the fact
12:46
Speaker 1: that Bush was booed and almost treated antagonistically when he
12:51
Speaker 1: got you know, transferred into power and he's driving down
12:54
Speaker 1: his limo and they almost have to speed it up
12:56
Speaker 1: and get the heck out of there so it doesn't
12:58
Speaker 1: turn into a riot. So some of this is not
13:01
Speaker 1: necessarily true. I don't remember the media one hundred percent
13:04
Speaker 1: being a lap dog, but yeah, no one really pushed
13:08
Speaker 1: into this as much and for a longer conversation outside
13:12
Speaker 1: of this, But I think that the US and the
13:14
Speaker 1: media learn their lesson they're in the Vietnam War. They
13:17
Speaker 1: were like, oh, let's not show your actual sons and daughters,
13:21
Speaker 1: you know, being hurt on TV during the time when
13:24
Speaker 1: you're like eating dinner with the family. Let's not Let's
13:27
Speaker 1: keep all of this bad stuff off of the TV
13:30
Speaker 1: and out of the news, and then all of a sudden,
13:33
Speaker 1: all the news reports get funneled by the military. You
13:35
Speaker 1: no longer have embedded reporters on the ground that are
13:39
Speaker 1: reporting exactly what they see, because that would definitely harm
13:42
Speaker 1: the war effort.
13:44
Speaker 5: And that even heard a desert storm because uh, I
13:47
Speaker 5: remember being young and my dad being in the he
13:50
Speaker 5: was in Vietnam, he was a marine, but watching desert
13:54
Speaker 5: storm and he's yelling at like heraudo.
13:56
Speaker 3: Like what are you doing. You're giving away position like
13:59
Speaker 3: on CNN.
14:01
Speaker 5: It was so intriguing to me that, like, I think
14:04
Speaker 5: you're right that they were like, yeah, let's stop doing that,
14:06
Speaker 5: because it's hard to sell war when your sons and
14:10
Speaker 5: daughters are getting slaughtered over there, which to his credit
14:13
Speaker 5: that he does show a lot of that in the film.
14:22
Speaker 1: You already mentioned one of your hidden Treasures was the
14:26
Speaker 1: only ones you can't get fooled again quote. There's a
14:29
Speaker 1: lot of really good bushisms throughout this entire movie. One
14:33
Speaker 1: of my favorites, too, was when he's talking about this
14:36
Speaker 1: war on terror and that America must defeat the terrorists.
14:40
Speaker 1: Now watch me hit this drive and then he goes
14:43
Speaker 1: down and he just goes golfing. And this movie starts
14:46
Speaker 1: out with the fact that Bush takes over the White
14:51
Speaker 1: House and the country is somewhat in turmoil politically and
14:55
Speaker 1: because of nine to eleven for a whole lit me
14:58
Speaker 1: of reasons. The gu government's going through some times. Yet
15:02
Speaker 1: Bush is spending record amounts of time playing golf and
15:05
Speaker 1: going on vacation. Although since this movie came out and
15:10
Speaker 1: made such a big point about how often the governments
15:14
Speaker 1: or how often the president is golfing or on vacation,
15:17
Speaker 1: now any president that ever comes into office, this is
15:20
Speaker 1: almost a new metric. I think by this movie now
15:24
Speaker 1: we know exactly how much time Biden was on vacation,
15:28
Speaker 1: Obama's on vacation. I know, I've heard plenty of articles
15:31
Speaker 1: about how often Trump is out golfing even while all
15:34
Speaker 1: these tariffs are kind of going into effect. So it
15:38
Speaker 1: is kind of remarkable that this new metric of how
15:41
Speaker 1: many days in office and what's going on and how
15:44
Speaker 1: much golfing is occurring. I mean, I credit Michael Moore
15:47
Speaker 1: for starting this new metric.
15:49
Speaker 5: Yeah, what a trend, right, And I do love the
15:53
Speaker 5: scene where he's just like, well, he's talking out through
15:55
Speaker 5: it like the first eight months was just terrible for Bush,
15:57
Speaker 5: and is he paints the picture of how Gorsha to
16:00
Speaker 5: one where his bias is coming in. You know that
16:02
Speaker 5: he's a liberal goor should have won the election was stolen.
16:06
Speaker 3: That's kind of funny. We've heard of that before. And
16:08
Speaker 3: then he's showing vacation.
16:10
Speaker 5: That song comes on like that cracks me up every
16:13
Speaker 5: time because I was like, it's well timed. That's where
16:15
Speaker 5: I'm like, he's a good filmmaker as that, Like he
16:18
Speaker 5: knows how to captivate the audience and kind of poke
16:21
Speaker 5: fun and like, which is super easy. And I think
16:24
Speaker 5: one thing that I'm watching this film back and you know,
16:27
Speaker 5: we just had the Biden administration and you're thinking of
16:30
Speaker 5: Hunter Biden, and I'm like, well, was Hunter Biden?
16:33
Speaker 3: Like was George Bush? W Was he the original Hunter Biden? Right?
16:38
Speaker 5: Like, except he made it to the presidency like Hunter didn't.
16:42
Speaker 3: But I could see a world where instead of Joe
16:45
Speaker 3: Biden's Hunter Biden running the country.
16:48
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I mean, and it makes me wish that there
16:53
Speaker 1: were a more neutral version of a Michael Moore that
16:57
Speaker 1: he that we would get a Michael Moore to Gate
17:00
Speaker 1: documentary or a Michael Moore Hunter Biden documentary, or just
17:04
Speaker 1: anything that kind of crosses the aisle a little bit.
17:07
Speaker 1: Bowling for Columbine was maybe the closest that we got
17:10
Speaker 1: to because there was some notes about Bill Clinton, and
17:14
Speaker 1: even when he interviews Marilyn Manson, they bring up this
17:18
Speaker 1: point of, man, isn't it such a nice convenient coincidence
17:22
Speaker 1: that the election is gonna all be all about gun
17:25
Speaker 1: control and media violence? And then now Bay and we've
17:28
Speaker 1: got this event that kind of fills both of those roles.
17:32
Speaker 1: So I think that this movie has some of those
17:34
Speaker 1: same sort of undertones that again, the last movie, there
17:38
Speaker 1: were so many other movies that were kind of bundled
17:41
Speaker 1: up in that one, and this one, at least it
17:43
Speaker 1: is a little bit more focused on just specifically George
17:46
Speaker 1: Bush and nine to eleven and these these business interests
17:49
Speaker 1: in Halliburton and Dick Cheney. This one is way more
17:52
Speaker 1: focused on that the hidden Treasure. Again, I think that
17:57
Speaker 1: it's just all of the bushisms and the fact that
18:00
Speaker 1: now your normy relatives and people that you know that
18:04
Speaker 1: you can talk at the water cooler. There might be
18:07
Speaker 1: a dialogue there for Hey, so how about that bin
18:09
Speaker 1: Laden family being tied directly to the Bush family, and
18:12
Speaker 1: how about these Norod standdown orders, Like it's again like
18:15
Speaker 1: the baby steps make this movie fascinating.
18:19
Speaker 5: Yeah, even when he's talking about the Phoenix Memo and
18:22
Speaker 5: like the Bush administration knowing back in July about the
18:26
Speaker 5: plans of what bin Laden wanted to do. I think again,
18:31
Speaker 5: you have to put yourself in two thousand and four.
18:33
Speaker 5: If you watch it now, at what we know, you're like,
18:36
Speaker 5: what that's basic, bro, Like you're just.
18:39
Speaker 3: Paddling in the water.
18:40
Speaker 5: You're tiptoeing what she usually does, but bringing in the
18:43
Speaker 5: whole every aspect because he really focuses big time. For me,
18:48
Speaker 5: that's one of the hidden the hidden treasures in this
18:50
Speaker 5: is him connecting the Bush family and connecting all the
18:55
Speaker 5: things of where the administration no knew about this prior.
18:59
Speaker 3: Instead of just like oh they.
19:00
Speaker 5: Knew, he actually made some actual claims and put some
19:05
Speaker 5: evidence forward instead of what he usually does is like,
19:07
Speaker 5: well it looks like he said that, and he said like, hey,
19:09
Speaker 5: look at the Phoenix memo, look at what they were
19:12
Speaker 5: talking about, and look how the Carli group and and
19:15
Speaker 5: hallen Burn wanted to put pipelines that were connected with
19:18
Speaker 5: the Saudis and the oil companies in Texas, and they
19:23
Speaker 5: even bring up I think his name is Chris Chris Bosh.
19:29
Speaker 5: I think, I don't know if I'm getting that one wrong,
19:34
Speaker 5: but he it was who was Uh he was stationed
19:39
Speaker 5: with George W. Bush and his connections to the Saudis
19:42
Speaker 5: and the binline of family. They kind of go a
19:44
Speaker 5: little bit extensive for a Michael Moore film, right, it's
19:48
Speaker 5: a deep dive for Michael Moore. For anybody else it'd
19:51
Speaker 5: be like, yeah, that's that's shallow waters. But for him,
19:54
Speaker 5: he does a good job.
19:56
Speaker 1: So is there anything in this movie that you'd consider
20:00
Speaker 1: overboard moment?
20:01
Speaker 5: I would say the overboard for me was again just
20:05
Speaker 5: Republicans bad. It's always the Red team. It's always the Republicans.
20:10
Speaker 5: Where he even starts it out with Gore should have
20:14
Speaker 5: won the election, and it was basically insinuating he doesn't
20:17
Speaker 5: make the claim, but he's insinuating that, like, oh, they
20:21
Speaker 5: stole it from him. And again he goes back to
20:24
Speaker 5: the like race baiting stuff that he loves to do.
20:27
Speaker 5: And when they're talking about I think it's the Patriot
20:31
Speaker 5: Act and taking away the liberties.
20:33
Speaker 3: I may be getting this part wrong.
20:34
Speaker 5: But he has a bunch of Congress people going and
20:37
Speaker 5: they need one senator to sign this off to like, oh, no,
20:40
Speaker 5: it's for the actual Al Gore stuff. Yeah, there me
20:43
Speaker 5: go my bad where Al Gore. They have these Congress
20:46
Speaker 5: people that are like, oh, and they're all Black Americans, right,
20:50
Speaker 5: And he he goes, well, look they're still not listening
20:53
Speaker 5: to the Black Americans and.
20:54
Speaker 3: That they were like Gore should have won this, and
20:57
Speaker 3: nobody will know.
20:58
Speaker 5: Not one senator like not mentioning that there's no like, oh,
21:02
Speaker 5: is there a black senator.
21:03
Speaker 3: He doesn't even mention that.
21:04
Speaker 5: He just goes, oh, they just don't like it because
21:06
Speaker 5: the Black Americans are bringing up this topic.
21:11
Speaker 1: For me, though, there's not an overboard moment per se.
21:14
Speaker 1: There's not like a specific claim or thing that happens
21:17
Speaker 1: in this movie. It's just that it stops short of
21:21
Speaker 1: getting into any real, real deep territory. Like you mentioned,
21:25
Speaker 1: it's a deep dive for Michael Moore, but it's not
21:27
Speaker 1: really a deep dive by my standard, or even to
21:31
Speaker 1: just a regular documentary standard. I don't think if you
21:35
Speaker 1: went and saw this, chances are you are ready either
21:40
Speaker 1: on the fence about Bush or anti Bush. I could
21:42
Speaker 1: I couldn't imagine lots and lots of Bush supporters going
21:45
Speaker 1: and seeing this movie at the time. So just seeing
21:48
Speaker 1: this movie and having it be something that you would
21:50
Speaker 1: talk about already kind of declared your own bias in
21:54
Speaker 1: some ways. And I hope I'm not reading into that,
21:57
Speaker 1: but I feel like that that was even during the
21:58
Speaker 1: time when this movie was popular, it was kind of
22:01
Speaker 1: a movie that you didn't see unless you already had
22:04
Speaker 1: some of your own bias built up. And I think
22:07
Speaker 1: that this movie is the epitome of that. It's the
22:09
Speaker 1: epitome of bias and leaning into this. Although that being said,
22:14
Speaker 1: like I was never pro Bush, I don't so I
22:18
Speaker 1: mean I could kind of see this without some of
22:20
Speaker 1: that extra bias dripping off of it. I wasn't like
22:22
Speaker 1: Team Blue or Team Red or anything. I definitely thought
22:25
Speaker 1: that Bush was behind nine to eleven. So again, my
22:28
Speaker 1: overboard is just not going overboard enough, Like he didn't
22:32
Speaker 1: go into and here's why it was an inside job,
22:34
Speaker 1: and here's all the other connections and all the different inconsistencies,
22:38
Speaker 1: which I doubt that Michael Moore is a truther even now,
22:41
Speaker 1: but I would love to see a Truther version of
22:44
Speaker 1: Michael Moore. Just like his previous movie, Bowling for Columbine,
22:55
Speaker 1: this movie made major ripples and waves. The previous movie
22:59
Speaker 1: change ed Kmart's marketing strategy and product lineup. That's major.
23:04
Speaker 1: This one, as I mentioned, was the most successful documentary
23:08
Speaker 1: of all time commercially two hundred million dollars on a
23:14
Speaker 1: tiny documentary style budget. And because of that, people start
23:18
Speaker 1: taking notice. It paves the way for more documentaries to
23:21
Speaker 1: get even more reach. So I mean, I do credit
23:24
Speaker 1: Michael Moore with making documentaries something of worth, like something
23:29
Speaker 1: that studios would actually care about and want to put
23:32
Speaker 1: their weight behind. Although I have to throw in that
23:36
Speaker 1: my own conspiratorial bias is maybe this was the plan.
23:41
Speaker 1: Maybe this is the whole media and the government saying
23:45
Speaker 1: here's an acceptable expose. Here's what an expose. It doesn't
23:49
Speaker 1: look like conspiracy asylns. It doesn't look like a noble ee.
23:53
Speaker 1: It doesn't look like money masters or inside Bohemian grove.
23:57
Speaker 1: It looks more like Fahrenheit nine to eleven, where some
24:01
Speaker 1: things are revealed. We might say the word Carlisle. We
24:03
Speaker 1: might talk about the Saudis and the bin Laden family,
24:07
Speaker 1: and then demonize Bush in particular and then kind of
24:09
Speaker 1: leave it at that. I feel like that is such
24:12
Speaker 1: an MSM acceptable version of what I really think goes
24:16
Speaker 1: on behind the scenes. So yeah, to me, that is
24:21
Speaker 1: the ripple and the wave.
24:23
Speaker 5: And the ripple for me is like, you don't get
24:26
Speaker 5: a loose change, right have?
24:28
Speaker 3: I think in this world, I.
24:30
Speaker 5: Gotta believe that that film was inspired, like, whether negatively
24:35
Speaker 5: or not, of where you're like, I could do a
24:37
Speaker 5: better job than that, or I can go deeper dive.
24:39
Speaker 5: I think if he doesn't come out with that, you
24:41
Speaker 5: don't really get the masterpiece of what we both agree
24:44
Speaker 5: on of loose change. And I think that is also
24:47
Speaker 5: the beginning, and he, for better or worse, he is
24:50
Speaker 5: very influential, and I think it's really the cause of
24:53
Speaker 5: this political polarization that the American public lives in now,
24:57
Speaker 5: where it really is just like, oh, these guys are bad.
25:00
Speaker 3: The other guys are cool, right, they're good.
25:02
Speaker 5: They're against the war, they're against all these bad things
25:05
Speaker 5: that are happening, and kind of even kind of dances around.
25:09
Speaker 5: They're against the taking away of liberties of the Patriot Act.
25:13
Speaker 5: And it kind of makes me laugh because you see
25:15
Speaker 5: it flipped after twenty twenty and all the Democratic people
25:19
Speaker 5: where they're like, yeah, we got to do this to
25:21
Speaker 5: protect us because of a disease, and really the same
25:25
Speaker 5: thing are being said from the conservatives in the film
25:27
Speaker 5: when they're like, yeah, I don't mind getting a few
25:30
Speaker 5: liberties taken away as long as it stops terrorism. And
25:34
Speaker 5: that's the message that got Ferment is this polarization started
25:37
Speaker 5: from there and that's the wave.
25:39
Speaker 1: To me, that's a great point that we might not
25:43
Speaker 1: have gotten a loose change if it weren't for the
25:45
Speaker 1: commercial success of Fahrenheit nine to eleven, or even if
25:49
Speaker 1: there was a loose change, there'd be far less people
25:51
Speaker 1: watching it because this opened the door. And I guess
25:55
Speaker 1: also culturally, this movie opened the door to criticize a
26:00
Speaker 1: sitting president at a much higher level than you're used to.
26:04
Speaker 1: This is no longer news program or a leaflet or
26:09
Speaker 1: some talk on c SPAN that no one sees or
26:11
Speaker 1: any of that. This is a incredibly successful commercial documentary
26:16
Speaker 1: theatrical release re released like promo campaigns behind it, that
26:21
Speaker 1: is squarely pointing their finger at a sitting president and
26:25
Speaker 1: criticizing him better or worse. It definitely set a new precedent.
26:29
Speaker 1: There weren't many of these scale of movies ever in
26:33
Speaker 1: history that attacked a sitting president so directly. So, I
26:37
Speaker 1: mean maybe to its credit that it did kind of
26:40
Speaker 1: make a little bit of waves that way. Again, my
26:42
Speaker 1: tinfoil had on it was like, this is the allowed
26:45
Speaker 1: version of that, and that's why it became successful. It
26:48
Speaker 1: was the show everyone, here's the template you're allowed to follow.
26:54
Speaker 1: I'll go first this time for me. This movie another
26:59
Speaker 1: really hard, oh man. I was surprised at how hard
27:02
Speaker 1: it was to call some of these Michael Moore movie
27:04
Speaker 1: if we were doing a scale one to ten, and
27:06
Speaker 1: it would been easier because I don't have to make
27:08
Speaker 1: like a solid decision this one. I have to give
27:12
Speaker 1: it a sink. But I have to do that with
27:14
Speaker 1: a couple of caveats, mainly two main reasons. One is
27:19
Speaker 1: that it pales in comparison to literally any other nine
27:22
Speaker 1: to eleven documentary I think I've ever seen, and it's
27:25
Speaker 1: right there in the name Fahrenheit nine to eleven. So
27:28
Speaker 1: I was expecting more about nine to eleven and less
27:31
Speaker 1: about it being just straight up about Bush and this
27:34
Speaker 1: the same old you know, fortunate Sun dialogue and Rich
27:37
Speaker 1: people sending poor people to war. A lot of that
27:40
Speaker 1: was not groundbreaking to me, and I had seen so
27:43
Speaker 1: many other groundbreaking nine to eleven movies that I was
27:46
Speaker 1: a little bit disappointed, even on rewatches, even my first
27:50
Speaker 1: time I watched it, but especially on rewatches, it was
27:53
Speaker 1: just like, man, this is so tame. This is for normies.
27:55
Speaker 1: It truly is, which made sense on why it was
27:58
Speaker 1: so commercially successful, which is the other main reason that
28:02
Speaker 1: this one's a sync for me, is it's hard for
28:05
Speaker 1: me to remove myself from knowing this is the most
28:09
Speaker 1: commercially successful documentary of all time. It just does not
28:13
Speaker 1: live up to one tenth of that hype. If that
28:15
Speaker 1: is truly the way that you know documentaries, this is
28:20
Speaker 1: a metric they're set against. I almost feel bad for
28:23
Speaker 1: anyone that doesn't get as much traction because this doesn't
28:27
Speaker 1: really do anything crazy. For me, even if I hated Bush,
28:30
Speaker 1: it would just make me be like, yeah, I know,
28:32
Speaker 1: what a jerk, right, But it's not like we're getting
28:36
Speaker 1: some deep dives into the Carlisle group or deep dives
28:39
Speaker 1: into the bin Lan family. I wish Man, I wish
28:41
Speaker 1: that this two hour runtime he wouldn't have spent a
28:45
Speaker 1: half hour on some things and spent a half hour
28:47
Speaker 1: on Carlisle.
28:49
Speaker 5: I'm a cop out, man, I'm gonna go to my
28:52
Speaker 5: life raft. I'm gonna give it a float. Man, I'm
28:54
Speaker 5: giving it a float because it did. It was influential
28:58
Speaker 5: for me. But again, it is not in comparison to
29:02
Speaker 5: any other nine to eleven documentary. It doesn't focus on
29:06
Speaker 5: anything in particular, Like their main focus is, oh Ben
29:10
Speaker 5: Ladden in the bushes had it ties, but he doesn't
29:12
Speaker 5: go deep into it till where you go like, oh,
29:14
Speaker 5: this guy knew this guy. He just kind of like,
29:15
Speaker 5: oh you got the bin Laddin's out of there, and
29:18
Speaker 5: they kind of knew each other. And maybe the oil
29:20
Speaker 5: He kind of suggests, like maybe oil is and you
29:22
Speaker 5: know that's why they went to a rat because they
29:24
Speaker 5: wanted to get the oil and with the Saudi's.
29:26
Speaker 3: But he doesn't make the claim.
29:27
Speaker 5: He doesn't have the courage to actually go out there
29:30
Speaker 5: and be like, yeah, I believe it was the oil
29:33
Speaker 5: and this and that and prove it right. He dances
29:36
Speaker 5: around everything. The only reason it gets a float for
29:38
Speaker 5: me is because of hey man, it opened me up, right,
29:42
Speaker 5: So my bias is like, hey, if I didn't see this,
29:45
Speaker 5: maybe I wouldn't be down this path of what I'm
29:47
Speaker 5: doing right now. But once you see loose Change, there's
29:51
Speaker 5: no comparison. Man, there's no way when you know that
29:54
Speaker 5: all that information was available to him as well, and
29:57
Speaker 5: that this was definitely Hollywood scripted of like, yeah, you
30:00
Speaker 5: can talk crap about Bush because you know, we're liberal
30:03
Speaker 5: and we're anti gun and we're anti war wink wink
30:06
Speaker 5: at that time.
30:07
Speaker 3: So it's fine, no worries. But there's no way.
30:11
Speaker 5: He's gonna make claims of able danger, right, No, it
30:15
Speaker 5: just so he gets a life rap for me, a
30:17
Speaker 5: little float.
30:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, another great point. Why don't we talk about able danger?
30:23
Speaker 1: Why don't we talk about the NORAD stand downs or
30:26
Speaker 1: all the other create the passport that's found on skate.
30:30
Speaker 1: I just wish that it got just a fraction of
30:33
Speaker 1: some of that attention in this movie because of how
30:36
Speaker 1: and again in Foil Hat, that's why it got two
30:38
Speaker 1: hundred million. This is why it was allowed to win awards,
30:42
Speaker 1: because it was them saying, yeah, you can say that
30:45
Speaker 1: about a Bush. That's what he's freaking there for. He's
30:47
Speaker 1: there to sort of take the fall and for you
30:50
Speaker 1: to point your finger at this one guy that's gonna
30:53
Speaker 1: be gone and for eight years, Max and he can
30:56
Speaker 1: kind of, you know, take all of that Karmac debt
31:00
Speaker 1: out with him, and it doesn't like the stink doesn't
31:02
Speaker 1: stick around on the CIA for longer than the presidential terms.
31:06
Speaker 1: So this, this movie just kind of plays directly into that.
31:18
Speaker 1: Up next, we're gonna get back into some conspiracy goodness.
31:23
Speaker 1: We're gonna start with the new, the brand new Chaos series,
31:26
Speaker 1: which is all about Charles Manson and MK Ultra and
31:30
Speaker 1: a lot more than that Satanism. It's gonna it's gonna
31:33
Speaker 1: get pretty deep. It's actually more than just a single documentary.
31:37
Speaker 1: It's a documentary series. So uh, Sean and I are
31:40
Speaker 1: gonna go watch the entire series come back with the
31:44
Speaker 1: same kind of read that you're coming to expect from
31:47
Speaker 1: Under the Docks. And I'm kind of excited about this
31:49
Speaker 1: one because we're gonna keep this theme of mk Ultra
31:53
Speaker 1: throughout the rest of this month. It's mk ultramonth Now
31:55
Speaker 1: we're moved on from Michael Moore Month the mk Ultra Month,
31:58
Speaker 1: and somehow mk Ultra Month sounds way more fun than
32:02
Speaker 1: Michael Mooremonth.
32:03
Speaker 5: It does, and I think this mk ulture is something
32:06
Speaker 5: that both of you and I are fascinated about. I
32:09
Speaker 5: think in both of our other shows we've talked a
32:11
Speaker 5: lot about it. I think even your one hundred show,
32:14
Speaker 5: it was one of your top ten conspiracies of all
32:17
Speaker 5: time because I think it's a classic. Right, We're sticking
32:20
Speaker 5: with the classics right now. We're not going to just
32:22
Speaker 5: jump out of like anything that you don't know about,
32:25
Speaker 5: because if you don't dip into the mk ultr, what
32:28
Speaker 5: are you doing? Honey?
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Speaker 1: Hate may be your language the game?
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