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Ukraine and Israel — A United Force? · UK Column Radio

0:06
Speaker 1: Good afternoon. I'm Ben Rubin. Welcome to UK Column today.
0:12
Speaker 1: I'm excited to have what I think promises to be
0:15
Speaker 1: an important conversation with Dr David Miller and Vanessa Beiley.
0:20
Speaker 1: David Miller is an author and an academic very famously
0:26
Speaker 1: or infamously sacked by Bristol University a few years ago
0:30
Speaker 1: for his anti Zionist views based on his extensive research
0:35
Speaker 1: into the Zionist movement in the UK. And Vanessa, as
0:39
Speaker 1: UK column viewers will know, is a regular contributor to
0:43
Speaker 1: UK column News and through her fantastic articles. Welcome David
0:49
Speaker 1: and Vanessa.
0:50
Speaker 2: Thank you.
0:51
Speaker 3: Thanks.
0:52
Speaker 1: We've asked David and Vanessa to join us today to
0:55
Speaker 1: get into what I think is probably one of the
0:57
Speaker 1: most important issues of the current moment here in the
1:02
Speaker 1: UK certainly, but also I think further afield, and one
1:07
Speaker 1: of the things that I've personally been seeing in the
1:11
Speaker 1: maybe more mainstream public discourse around the two primary conflicts
1:16
Speaker 1: that are taking place in the world at the moment,
1:19
Speaker 1: the war in Gaza between Israel and Palestine and the
1:25
Speaker 1: war in Eastern Europe between Ukraine and Russia, is that
1:29
Speaker 1: there are many people, particularly as they might define themselves
1:33
Speaker 1: sitting on the political left, and this is especially prevalent
1:38
Speaker 1: in our cities and in our university campuses, and in
1:45
Speaker 1: particular with the younger generation, that people and groups are
1:53
Speaker 1: very much pro Palestine, and on that basis, I think
1:58
Speaker 1: anti war, anti gene, which is a position that I
2:01
Speaker 1: think anyone with any decency would hold, but also at
2:04
Speaker 1: the same time pro Ukraine and backing Zelenski and Ukraine
2:10
Speaker 1: and ultimately NATO in the war against Russia what they
2:15
Speaker 1: call Putin's war of aggression against Ukraine. And my view,
2:21
Speaker 1: based on my understanding of this situation, is that those
2:24
Speaker 1: two positions are actually ire consignable. And I know that
2:30
Speaker 1: there are clear links between Israel and the Zionist movement
2:35
Speaker 1: and Ukraine, and in fact, i've heard it described Ukraine
2:39
Speaker 1: described previously as northern Israel essentially, and I think that
2:46
Speaker 1: this is something that needs to be explored further. And
2:50
Speaker 1: David has written on this quite a bit previously produced
2:54
Speaker 1: some fantastic articles, very well referenced articles, and I'm really
2:59
Speaker 1: looking for to finding out more about this issue today
3:02
Speaker 1: and hopefully providing a counterpoint, a counter narrative to that
3:07
Speaker 1: kind of dominant discourse that I've talked about that I've
3:09
Speaker 1: been seeing here in the UK and further afield. So
3:13
Speaker 1: my first question then to you, David, is is this
3:16
Speaker 1: something that you recognize, this coincidence between the support for
3:22
Speaker 1: Palestine and the support for Ukraine in these groups that
3:25
Speaker 1: I've described.
3:27
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's broadly correct. I mean, the epidemic
3:33
Speaker 2: of Ukrainian flags on the high street seems to have
3:35
Speaker 2: died down a little bit over the last couple of years,
3:39
Speaker 2: but there is a strong feeling I think on what
3:43
Speaker 2: I would characterize that's the liberal left, which is hostile
3:47
Speaker 2: to Russia and on that basis is favorable to Ukraate,
3:52
Speaker 2: although they might have at the edges some worries about
3:57
Speaker 2: some of the positions taken by Zelenski or about the
4:00
Speaker 2: the role of Nazism in the Ukrainian forces, etc. Which
4:05
Speaker 2: they don't tend to go into a lot, but there
4:07
Speaker 2: are some ways. But these sort of liberal positions are
4:10
Speaker 2: that yes, of course you shouldn't kill Palestinian children, and yes,
4:14
Speaker 2: of course they would say that they have the same position,
4:17
Speaker 2: which is that you shouldn't kill Ukrainian children, which courses
4:21
Speaker 2: there are attempt to draw parallel between the special military
4:24
Speaker 2: operation in Ukraine and the genocide in Gaza, when, of
4:28
Speaker 2: course there is no such parallel, as anyone who has
4:32
Speaker 2: examined the issue for a moment will conclude. So, yes,
4:36
Speaker 2: of course there is this kind of contradiction in liberal
4:41
Speaker 2: left ideas. But we see it, We see this in
4:44
Speaker 2: a lot of issues, that the liberal left position on
4:46
Speaker 2: many many issues is quite simply wrong. But on some
4:51
Speaker 2: issues they kind of get it right. They're kind of
4:54
Speaker 2: right on Palestine. I mean, they don't go nearly far
4:56
Speaker 2: enough from me. But that's the problem with liberalism. It's
5:00
Speaker 2: kind of right ham twice a day like a stop clock,
5:03
Speaker 2: and on the question of Ukraine is comprehensively wrong. Of course,
5:06
Speaker 2: the idea that put In was provoked in Ukraine is
5:13
Speaker 2: of course a sound one, as anyone who's gone back
5:16
Speaker 2: to the records of the pledges given by a slew
5:22
Speaker 2: of different Western leases, including senior American leaders, including the presidents,
5:28
Speaker 2: to the Russians that they wouldn't go an inch towards
5:33
Speaker 2: Russian borders. And of course they then proceeded to allow
5:36
Speaker 2: all the Eastern European countries, almost all of the Eastern
5:40
Speaker 2: Bloc countries to join NATO and that's of course what
5:43
Speaker 2: provoked the special Worltary operation in Ukraine was the potential
5:49
Speaker 2: accession of Ukraine to the EU and indeed to NATO,
5:54
Speaker 2: but also of course the assault on the secessionist people
5:59
Speaker 2: of the Domba too after the coup in Ukraine back
6:03
Speaker 2: in two thousand and four for a secessionist war, and
6:09
Speaker 2: essentially what was happening was they were being killed and
6:11
Speaker 2: massacred and the Russians went in to defend them. And
6:15
Speaker 2: now those provinces have of course overwhelmingly voted to join
6:19
Speaker 2: Russia and to not to be part of Ukraine anymore.
6:22
Speaker 2: So there's there's no comparison between the two. There is
6:29
Speaker 2: one comparison, however, and that is that the West is
6:35
Speaker 2: of course on the side of Ukraine and I'm joining
6:40
Speaker 2: ATO in the EU, and the West of course is
6:42
Speaker 2: also on the side of the genocide in Gaza. So
6:46
Speaker 2: that's that's what's where the real equivalence is. Is if
6:50
Speaker 2: you support Ukraine, you're effectively in having the same position
6:53
Speaker 2: as the West, which is supporting the genocink Gas. As
6:57
Speaker 2: everyone knows, so liberal positions don't tend to work very
7:00
Speaker 2: well with those realities.
7:03
Speaker 1: I certainly not the term liberal I think might be
7:06
Speaker 1: part of the problem. I always like the phrase stand
7:09
Speaker 1: for nothing, full for anything. I think that seems to
7:11
Speaker 1: be operative here.
7:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, indeed, I mean, look, what's happening in the
7:17
Speaker 2: Ukraine now, of course, is somewhat complex, isn't it. We've
7:23
Speaker 2: just seen, haven't we they the deal which was apparently
7:27
Speaker 2: made between the Russians and the Trump administration such that
7:32
Speaker 2: the Russians would scuttle from Syria, letting the government of
7:39
Speaker 2: Bashar al Asad collapse in exchange for a settlement in Ukraine.
7:46
Speaker 2: And you know, I don't want to be rooted to
7:48
Speaker 2: mister Putin, but how is that settlement? Does he think?
7:52
Speaker 2: It doesn't appear that it's going anywhere fast that it
7:57
Speaker 2: looks like the Americans have surprise eyed about the extent
8:01
Speaker 2: to which they were willing to go for a settlement
8:03
Speaker 2: in Ukraine. And we're getting really so far, nothing much
8:07
Speaker 2: in the way of any kind of progress, although at
8:09
Speaker 2: the same time we are also seeing Ukrainian lines collapse
8:13
Speaker 2: at a more accelerated rate than has been the case
8:16
Speaker 2: for the last months. Anyhow, so I think that there's
8:19
Speaker 2: a there's an issue here about what's actually happening in
8:22
Speaker 2: Ukraine and whether we're going to see an end to
8:24
Speaker 2: the conflict in Ukraine. And in a way that's it's
8:27
Speaker 2: a parallel with what's happening in Gaza, because of course
8:30
Speaker 2: the Americans have promised various things to specifically to her
8:34
Speaker 2: Mass and also to the Urinian government, which they then
8:38
Speaker 2: have gone back on, and they told, in fact, they
8:42
Speaker 2: told the Mass that they would have a cease far
8:45
Speaker 2: for a period if they released that American slash is
8:50
Speaker 2: really a prisoner, and they did that, and of course
8:54
Speaker 2: what then happened was that they Israeli escalated immediately thereafter.
8:58
Speaker 2: So what we're seeing, I think in this period is
9:03
Speaker 2: an indication of the win which the Trump administration operates.
9:06
Speaker 2: It says all sorts of nice things, and then it
9:09
Speaker 2: goes back on them, it lies, and this is not surprised.
9:12
Speaker 2: This is what American governments always do.
9:14
Speaker 1: Indeed, Finished did you want to chime in on.
9:17
Speaker 4: That, Yeah, Anie, I think David's absolutely right, particularly on
9:21
Speaker 4: the Trump administration. You know, psychologically, Trump is a businessman,
9:25
Speaker 4: he's also a borderline sociopath, and I think any negotiation
9:32
Speaker 4: with Trump should be viewed in the prism of it
9:36
Speaker 4: being a win lose negotiation, a win for Trump and
9:40
Speaker 4: a lose for whoever he's negotiating with.
9:44
Speaker 3: This is well known. It's also well known that what
9:46
Speaker 3: the Americans do, whether it's Trump or an.
9:49
Speaker 4: Other, we know that there's very little difference between the
9:54
Speaker 4: so called giopoly in the US. The fact is that
10:00
Speaker 4: when entering negotiations, they enter dishonestly, so they present a
10:06
Speaker 4: negotiating paradigm which then is completely changed. I mean, initially
10:13
Speaker 4: they were talking with Iran about enabling up to three
10:16
Speaker 4: percent enrichment of uranium. Now suddenly the red line is
10:20
Speaker 4: any enrichment of uranium, which of course is a red
10:23
Speaker 4: line for the Uranians. And so this is what the
10:26
Speaker 4: US regularly does. But I think, also coming back to
10:32
Speaker 4: the point about the liberal view on Palestine and Ukraine,
10:40
Speaker 4: I think what liberals often do is to ignore the
10:44
Speaker 4: historical context. And we're obviously going to get more into that,
10:48
Speaker 4: but the connections historically between particularly Benjamin Natanyahu and the
10:56
Speaker 4: former founders of Zionism, or one particular of Zionism, Zayev
11:03
Speaker 4: Yabotinsky or Jabatinsky. However, you want to say that who
11:07
Speaker 4: not only founded what is now known as revisionist Zionism
11:12
Speaker 4: or expansionist Zionism. Natanyahu's father, Benzion Natanya, who actually worked
11:18
Speaker 4: for him as a private secretary. He edited all of
11:22
Speaker 4: the publications of Yabatinsky's branch of Zionism, which was founded
11:27
Speaker 4: in Odessa. And Odessa was known fondly by the Zionists
11:32
Speaker 4: as the Gates of Sion because it was the hub
11:34
Speaker 4: or the center, the nerve center of the Zionist operations
11:40
Speaker 4: on the continent, and then later was the hub from
11:43
Speaker 4: which the majority of the settlers came from Europe, particularly
11:50
Speaker 4: Eastern Europe and particularly Ukraine to settle and basically steal
11:55
Speaker 4: Palestinian land. And Yabotinsky was famous for his nineteen twenty
11:59
Speaker 4: three article The Iron Wall, in which he said there
12:03
Speaker 4: is no justice, no law, and no God in heaven,
12:07
Speaker 4: only a single law which decides and supersedes all, which
12:11
Speaker 4: is settlement. And so we'll get more into those, and
12:14
Speaker 4: I'm sure David can add to that, but I think
12:17
Speaker 4: this connection is something that as you said, that the
12:21
Speaker 4: so called left wing in Europe and the UK, even
12:25
Speaker 4: in the US are woefully ignorant of and potentially also
12:32
Speaker 4: wilfully ignorant of. I think many of these kind of
12:36
Speaker 4: liberal anti war pass the first organizations one deny the
12:41
Speaker 4: right of armed resistance, but two divide their support along
12:46
Speaker 4: lines of ignorance, in other words, or lines where they
12:50
Speaker 4: deliberately ignore the historical contexts, which leads them to take
12:54
Speaker 4: a very mistaken position.
12:56
Speaker 3: We had that on Syria.
12:58
Speaker 4: We had many of the pro Palastine movements in the
13:01
Speaker 4: UK in particular taking an anti serious stand for the
13:05
Speaker 4: majority of the regime change war because they've been duped
13:08
Speaker 4: by members of the pro Palestine, let's say, lobby on
13:14
Speaker 4: the side of the Muslim Brotherhood that were instrumental in
13:17
Speaker 4: pushing the regime changed narratives from twenty to eleven onwards.
13:22
Speaker 4: So I think it's a very good lesson for people
13:24
Speaker 4: to take a deep breath before taking any kind of
13:30
Speaker 4: support position for anything that is being orchestrated effectively by
13:36
Speaker 4: the West in any way, shape or form. And Ukraine
13:39
Speaker 4: Russia's war was definitely.
13:41
Speaker 3: Orchestrated by the West, and take.
13:44
Speaker 4: A deep breath and study the history of that conflict.
13:49
Speaker 1: I completely agree with you. I think a lot of
13:51
Speaker 1: people essentially just take the easy route with this stuff
13:55
Speaker 1: and also get very much caught up in the kind
13:59
Speaker 1: of two week news cycle, the latest thing, and however
14:03
Speaker 1: that's being presented to them, and they barely look at anything,
14:06
Speaker 1: you know, two years, twenty years, certainly not two hundred
14:09
Speaker 1: years back, right, So I think that's a big part
14:11
Speaker 1: of this. So we've just covered a whole slew of
14:14
Speaker 1: different issues, and we're certainly going to come back to
14:17
Speaker 1: US and Russia and Trump and Putin and Syria a
14:21
Speaker 1: bit later on in the discussion. But Vanessa, thank you
14:25
Speaker 1: for that. You've just introduced a little bit about the
14:28
Speaker 1: history of Zionism and its links into Ukraine. I wonder,
14:30
Speaker 1: David if you wanted to add on to that and
14:33
Speaker 1: give us some of the context, both politically, but I
14:35
Speaker 1: think also religiously and theologically as well, because the roots
14:40
Speaker 1: really do run deep here.
14:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think there's an interesting thing here,
14:44
Speaker 2: which is where I can talk about the development of
14:49
Speaker 2: Zionism in the Ukraine. But it also because of the
14:54
Speaker 2: way people react to how you talk, how when we
14:57
Speaker 2: talk about this, or I would talk about it, the
15:00
Speaker 2: historical record, it gives an useful insight, I think, into
15:05
Speaker 2: the way in which sections of the I've used the
15:08
Speaker 2: term liberal left, but I'm really talking about now the left,
15:12
Speaker 2: the actual suppose so called revolutionary socialist left, which it
15:17
Speaker 2: shows in their response to how I will talk about this,
15:21
Speaker 2: it shows the way in which I think, effectively their
15:24
Speaker 2: ideas about the Jews and about Zionism have been effectively
15:32
Speaker 2: influenced and captured by Zionists themselves. And I'll try and
15:37
Speaker 2: explain that as well. So look what the settlement in Odessa.
15:42
Speaker 2: And I use the word settlement advisedly because Odessa was
15:46
Speaker 2: a town founded by Catherine the Great, the Empress of Russia,
15:53
Speaker 2: and it was founded by her after I think in
15:57
Speaker 2: seventeen ninety six, they had kicked the Muslims out. The
16:00
Speaker 2: Ottoman Empire had been in that area, and they were
16:04
Speaker 2: kicked out, and they founded a new settlement, a settler colony.
16:10
Speaker 2: And amongst those who went there were people of Russian origin,
16:15
Speaker 2: of German origin, and a number of others, but also
16:19
Speaker 2: Jews who were not allowed in the pale settlement, and
16:22
Speaker 2: they were went to Odessa to found Odessa. And so
16:26
Speaker 2: the Jews who were there, as were they as the
16:29
Speaker 2: others who were there were settler colonists. They had gone,
16:32
Speaker 2: and the natives have been removed by Russian armies and
16:35
Speaker 2: they had set they settled there in a settler colony. Now,
16:39
Speaker 2: when I mentioned this before, I think two years ago,
16:42
Speaker 2: now I was denounced, yes, of course by the right,
16:46
Speaker 2: but also why the left, including leading members of the
16:48
Speaker 2: Revolutionary Left in this country, as being an anti Semite,
16:52
Speaker 2: because somehow, if I was saying that Jews were settler
16:57
Speaker 2: colonists in another place, that must mean that I think
17:00
Speaker 2: that Jews are all have this propensity because of their
17:03
Speaker 2: religion or something, or to settle the colonialism. And of
17:08
Speaker 2: course that this is simply ridiculous. Partly was born at vignorance.
17:12
Speaker 2: They had no idea that was a settler colony, no
17:15
Speaker 2: idea at all. And so there's a kind of sense
17:19
Speaker 2: in which the kind of Zion's friendly view permeates the
17:24
Speaker 2: anti war movement and the anti racist movement in the UK,
17:27
Speaker 2: which has been the case for a long long time.
17:29
Speaker 2: Might we take a second out to explain how that happened.
17:33
Speaker 2: So in the aftermath of the Second World War, many
17:38
Speaker 2: servicemen came back from the war to find a nascent
17:42
Speaker 2: fascist movement on the streets in the UK. And many
17:46
Speaker 2: of these, including many Jewish ex servicemen, and many members
17:49
Speaker 2: of the Communist Party formed a group called the forty
17:51
Speaker 2: three Group, which was dedicated to fascism on the streets,
17:55
Speaker 2: and the BBC did a documentary about the forty three
17:58
Speaker 2: Group success of the same group some years ago. Now,
18:02
Speaker 2: this was an organization which was fighting fascist am on
18:04
Speaker 2: the streets, but which also had a relationship to Zionism,
18:08
Speaker 2: such that by nineteen forty eight, thirty or forty of
18:11
Speaker 2: its members went to Palestine to take part in the Naqua,
18:16
Speaker 2: and indeed the leadership of the organization signed up on
18:20
Speaker 2: Block to affiliate to the argon the Revisionist Zionist a
18:27
Speaker 2: terrorist organization coming out of the whole Jabatinsky experience. And
18:32
Speaker 2: since then, of course there have been Zionist influences in
18:35
Speaker 2: the anti racist movement all the way through. There have
18:37
Speaker 2: been two major influences. One is Zionist anti racist groups,
18:42
Speaker 2: not anti racist groups such as the Community Security Trust
18:45
Speaker 2: or Tell Mama or Hope not Hate for example, But
18:49
Speaker 2: on the other hand, also largely Trotskys sometimes Communist influenced
18:55
Speaker 2: anti racist groups which have been soft on Zionism. They've
18:59
Speaker 2: had a a relationship with Zionism, which is that we
19:03
Speaker 2: have to have a common front with the Zionists. Thus
19:05
Speaker 2: we don't focus on the main form of racism in
19:07
Speaker 2: the country, which in this period has been anti Irish racism,
19:11
Speaker 2: anti Black racism, and now Islamophobia. Instead we focus on
19:14
Speaker 2: fascism and Nazism, which of course of the least threatening
19:19
Speaker 2: ideological currents for people of color in this country. So
19:23
Speaker 2: that I think is part of the problem is that
19:25
Speaker 2: there's been a compromise between the Zionism in all of
19:28
Speaker 2: the far left and all of the anti racism, almost
19:31
Speaker 2: all of the far left, all of the anti racist movement,
19:33
Speaker 2: which is meant that it's very difficult for them to
19:35
Speaker 2: actually deal with some of the issues we now face
19:37
Speaker 2: in relation to the genocides. Now back to the Ukraine,
19:39
Speaker 2: so yes, the Zionist movement was effectively created in Odessa,
19:44
Speaker 2: as Vanessa says, was referred to as the Gates of
19:48
Speaker 2: Zion by the Zionist movement themselves, and there was a
19:51
Speaker 2: guy called Stephen Pinska who set up an organization called
19:55
Speaker 2: the Lovers of Zion prior to the existence of the
19:58
Speaker 2: Zionist movement. In the taste, the science movement of course
20:01
Speaker 2: was created in the eighteen nineties, so there's a strong
20:05
Speaker 2: history of Zionist and there, of course, Gabatinski was from there.
20:09
Speaker 2: A significant number of very senior Israeli military and indeed
20:14
Speaker 2: prime ministers and presidents have come from Ukraine. So it's
20:18
Speaker 2: a kind of crucible for the creation of the settler
20:22
Speaker 2: colony in Palestine. And that relationship, of course has never
20:27
Speaker 2: really fully dissipated. And maybe we'll go on to talk
20:30
Speaker 2: more about that, but that's the history of this, is
20:32
Speaker 2: that Zionism comes from Ukraine. So it's not surprising then
20:36
Speaker 2: that many of the Zionists who are in Ukraine have
20:42
Speaker 2: a sort of a strong view on Ukrainian nationalism. And
20:47
Speaker 2: the thing I would say about that to explain that
20:49
Speaker 2: is that from the very beginning of Ukrainian nationalism there
20:53
Speaker 2: was a strong parallel between Ukrainian nationalism and Zionism, partly
20:58
Speaker 2: because of course they're very their ideologies, but also practically
21:02
Speaker 2: they had a they had a relationship. So famously, Jamatinsky
21:08
Speaker 2: made a deal with the Ukrainian proto fascist leader Simon Petlura,
21:14
Speaker 2: who of course was assassinated on the streets of Paris
21:18
Speaker 2: by by a Jewish Russian anarchist. If I'm not mistaken,
21:22
Speaker 2: because of his involvement in programs against the Jews, and
21:28
Speaker 2: Gamatinsky at one point wrote in his diary that this
21:30
Speaker 2: would be his epitaph, that he was, that he was
21:33
Speaker 2: the Jew who had made a deal with the effectively
21:36
Speaker 2: the fascist Petlura. And there's a famous Soviet cartoon from
21:42
Speaker 2: from that period, from the nineteen twenties with Petluro in
21:46
Speaker 2: his grave and Gemeatinsky at the side of the grave
21:48
Speaker 2: weeping tears over the the murder of his his compatriot.
21:54
Speaker 2: So there's historically been a strong relationship between Zionism and nationalists.
22:00
Speaker 1: The issue in terms of Zionism and its relationship with
22:03
Speaker 1: the left and the fact that the left they're kind
22:05
Speaker 1: of in a bit of a bind at the moment, right,
22:06
Speaker 1: because actually, I think the issue is that a lot
22:09
Speaker 1: of what first of all, you've you've kind of pointed
22:11
Speaker 1: out that a lot of these proto communist ideas were
22:15
Speaker 1: heavily influenced by Zionists thinkers in the first place, and
22:19
Speaker 1: actually the kind of the endpoint of a lot of
22:23
Speaker 1: the kind of radical left activists and even people who
22:28
Speaker 1: are fairly mainstreaming this, like Jeremy Colbying, for example, they're
22:34
Speaker 1: actually interested in this idea of global governance, right, They
22:38
Speaker 1: actually think that global governance and top down centralized control
22:42
Speaker 1: is a good thing. It's just that they wanted to
22:44
Speaker 1: come from their side of the political spectrum versus the
22:47
Speaker 1: other side of the political spectrum. So that puts them
22:50
Speaker 1: in quite an interesting position in terms of you know,
22:52
Speaker 1: what they well they kind of can't say, and what
22:54
Speaker 1: they allow themselves to see and to condemn out there
22:58
Speaker 1: in what's happening in the world.
23:00
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I think that. I mean Jeremy of
23:02
Speaker 2: course is not really an anti Zionist. There really has been.
23:08
Speaker 2: There are people on the level. I mean a party
23:10
Speaker 2: like the Socialist Workers Party is a party which has
23:13
Speaker 2: always historically been anti Sionist. I mean, it's famously it's
23:18
Speaker 2: a leading ideologue, a guy called Tony Cliff who anglicized
23:23
Speaker 2: his name from Igail Gluckstein, and of course had experience
23:26
Speaker 2: of the uh the settler colony in past time, because
23:32
Speaker 2: he was there, him and his not then wife, Chenie Rosenberg.
23:37
Speaker 2: She lived on a kibutz uh hash hatseer kibbutz, and
23:41
Speaker 2: he was the most radical left wing of the Zionist organizations,
23:48
Speaker 2: and their experience of that kibbutz and the fact that
23:51
Speaker 2: it was Jews own's anti Arab it was endemically racist.
23:54
Speaker 2: That's what turned them off Zionism. And so ever since
23:58
Speaker 2: then the s w P has been anti Zionist organization,
24:01
Speaker 2: at least formally, but now it seems to have a
24:04
Speaker 2: real difficulty and actually not just the SAP but the
24:08
Speaker 2: whole left actually in using the Z word. You can't
24:11
Speaker 2: say Zionism because that will somehow overemphasize the responsibility of
24:17
Speaker 2: the Zionists for the genocide and underemphasize the responsibility of
24:21
Speaker 2: US imperialsm But that will let us imperialism and indeed
24:25
Speaker 2: the British role in the genocide off the hook. And
24:28
Speaker 2: that's a profoundly misguided, a mistaken approach to take, in
24:34
Speaker 2: my opinion. The people who supported Hitler in the Second
24:40
Speaker 2: World War, Yes there were British companies and American companies
24:43
Speaker 2: and in fact American publicists and pr operatives, they weren't
24:46
Speaker 2: the ones who were responsible for what the Nazis did.
24:49
Speaker 2: It was the Nazis and the Similarly, in this case,
24:53
Speaker 2: it's the Zionists who are doing the killing, the Zionists
24:55
Speaker 2: who recruit the people, the thousands of young men and
24:59
Speaker 2: women who have gone from the UK and France and
25:01
Speaker 2: Germany and Brazil to commit the genocide. They're the ones
25:05
Speaker 2: who did this. Of course, they are supported by the
25:07
Speaker 2: Americans who give them seventy percent of the weapons, and
25:10
Speaker 2: the political cover by the Germans who give thirty percent
25:14
Speaker 2: of the weapons, and of course by the British should
25:15
Speaker 2: do the overflights, the intelligence overflights for the IDEA, more
25:20
Speaker 2: overflights in fact than the IDEF to themselves. But nonetheless
25:24
Speaker 2: we should be clear the people who are who are
25:27
Speaker 2: training their guns on the heads of three year old
25:30
Speaker 2: toddlers are Zionists. And it's a Zionist movement which has
25:34
Speaker 2: led this strategy and the Zionist movement which is carrying
25:37
Speaker 2: out the strategy. And therefore we need to, I think,
25:39
Speaker 2: focus on Zionism, what it is, how it operates, and
25:42
Speaker 2: how it can be defeated, rather than have a kind
25:45
Speaker 2: of what I might impolitely call a lily livered approach
25:49
Speaker 2: which says we don't actually discuss them.
25:52
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think just I wanted to come back
25:55
Speaker 4: to the Dabatinsky because I think he's really someone where
26:01
Speaker 4: people can make that very clear connection between Zionism and
26:07
Speaker 4: Nazism in Ukraine because, as David rightly said, he collaborated
26:11
Speaker 4: with Simon Petlura, who actually massacred tens of thousands of
26:16
Speaker 4: Jews from nineteen nineteen onwards in the programs in that
26:21
Speaker 4: particular area. Right Yabatinsky basically agreed to provide Jewish militia
26:28
Speaker 4: to support Petlura on the basis that they would be
26:34
Speaker 4: collaborating against a potential threat from communism, i e.
26:39
Speaker 3: From then the Soviet.
26:41
Speaker 4: Union, and Jabatinski went on to form the Better Youth Movement, which,
26:49
Speaker 4: as David has pointed out in one of his articles,
26:52
Speaker 4: were dressed very reminiscently of kind of fascist youth groups
26:57
Speaker 4: in brown uniform. He was supporter of Mussolini, but most
27:02
Speaker 4: importantly he believed in this revisionist Scionism, which was followed
27:08
Speaker 4: as I said, by Natanya, who's father Benion and now
27:12
Speaker 4: of course by Benjamin Natanyahu himself, who's the longest serving.
27:17
Speaker 3: Sort of prime minister in the occupied territories.
27:24
Speaker 4: And this was that colonization could only be imposed by force,
27:29
Speaker 4: there was no peaceful resolution with Palestinians, and of course
27:33
Speaker 4: that is exactly what we're seeing to be Benjamin Natanyahu's
27:37
Speaker 4: policy against Palestinians both in the West Bank and in Gaza,
27:42
Speaker 4: but also the fact that Nataah is incorporated into his administration.
27:48
Speaker 3: Some of the far more right.
27:49
Speaker 4: Wing members of Israeli political movements, including excuse me, beanng
27:58
Speaker 4: Gaver and Bezi Smotrich. Smotrich has just gone on record saying,
28:04
Speaker 4: you knowet forget about any kind of peaceful resolution staff
28:09
Speaker 4: the Palestinians. We need to eradicate them completely. Mosha Fadelin
28:13
Speaker 4: has just gone on saying our problem isn't with Hamas,
28:17
Speaker 4: it's it's with all Palestinians, particularly babies. We should be
28:21
Speaker 4: murdering the babies. And so you know, when you look
28:24
Speaker 4: at this, it's an unbroken arc from Jabbatinsky to Natanyahu now,
28:32
Speaker 4: and that's what people are failing to recognize. They're failing
28:35
Speaker 4: to make this direct connection to Djabatinsky's policies as a
28:40
Speaker 4: zion Is cooperating with Nazis in Ukraine and Banyamin Natanyahu's
28:45
Speaker 4: policies now to exterminate Palestinians both in the occupied territories
28:50
Speaker 4: and in Gaza to ensure the final solution, which is
28:55
Speaker 4: Zionus settlement of those territories.
29:00
Speaker 1: This is why I think people really struggle with right,
29:05
Speaker 1: because you've just talked about Jewish militia collaborating with Nazis
29:16
Speaker 1: in Ukraine who had actually committed atrocities against Jews in
29:21
Speaker 1: order to achieve their own political agenda. It's I think
29:29
Speaker 1: a lot of people struggle with the level of cynicism
29:31
Speaker 1: and just the pure naked lust for power required to
29:37
Speaker 1: do these to carry out these kinds of actions.
29:40
Speaker 2: I know that it is as you describe. I mean,
29:45
Speaker 2: let's remember that the militias which Jabbatinski formed were intended
29:51
Speaker 2: to be militias to protect the Jewish people. They were
29:55
Speaker 2: Jewish nationalist militias. The agreement that referred to was an
30:01
Speaker 2: agreement that the Ukrainian nationalists would govern their people, the Ukrainians,
30:08
Speaker 2: and that the Jewish nationalists would govern their people, the Jews,
30:12
Speaker 2: with their own militias. And the only time where they
30:16
Speaker 2: we'd have to have anything to do with each other
30:18
Speaker 2: and have to fight together was against the Russians. That
30:21
Speaker 2: was the that was the deal, and that that is
30:25
Speaker 2: the kind of philosophy they have is a very very
30:28
Speaker 2: similar philosophy. So yes, of course they don't want to
30:32
Speaker 2: be themselves to be attacked. But they believed they had
30:36
Speaker 2: a deal with with the proto fascists of Petlura and
30:40
Speaker 2: the rest, and that they have course had a very
30:42
Speaker 2: similar idea about what it was, what what the what
30:47
Speaker 2: the state or the idea of the Jewish people was,
30:50
Speaker 2: and how similar that was to the Ukrainian nationalism. I mean,
30:53
Speaker 2: in a way, I think how they started to think
30:57
Speaker 2: about Jewish nationalism and took a lot from the Ukrainian nationalists.
31:02
Speaker 2: It's very very similar when you look back at it.
31:04
Speaker 2: They have this very similar ideas about about the vulk,
31:08
Speaker 2: about the people, about their sovereignty of our other people,
31:13
Speaker 2: which is very similar to to Zionism today now. Venssa
31:17
Speaker 2: also referred to the uniforms now the Betar was, of
31:22
Speaker 2: course the kind of youth wing of the revisionist movement.
31:28
Speaker 2: And if you look, if you go on, if you
31:30
Speaker 2: do a Google image search for Betar and you look
31:34
Speaker 2: for the black and white photographs, you find all sorts
31:36
Speaker 2: of interesting looking uniforms on these young men, including as
31:41
Speaker 2: a famous one from nineteen twenty three in Poland, I think,
31:45
Speaker 2: which has the young Manakim began in his military uniform.
31:53
Speaker 2: If you look at Betar's website today, they still exist
31:55
Speaker 2: today and I'll talk about that. They have a seven principles,
31:59
Speaker 2: have had this from the beginning. One of the principles
32:01
Speaker 2: is maget, which means protection and it requires members, individual members,
32:06
Speaker 2: all members of the organization to engage in military and
32:11
Speaker 2: paramilitary trade UH and to be willing personally to fight
32:16
Speaker 2: come the appropriate moments. From the beginning, BETA has been
32:19
Speaker 2: a militia which she is a military organization, and today
32:24
Speaker 2: it remains the same. They have of course been involved
32:27
Speaker 2: in the US recently in compiling lists of Jews to
32:30
Speaker 2: provide to the Zionists who will who will thus forte.
32:34
Speaker 2: Thus afterwards be UH stopped from going to this entertain
32:40
Speaker 2: amenable to all sorts of other punishments that the Zionists
32:43
Speaker 2: might put together for them. And just the other day
32:45
Speaker 2: they threatened to kill Francesca Albanese the UN Special Rapport tour.
32:51
Speaker 2: This is a development within Zionism which is about developed
32:56
Speaker 2: about the resurgence of effect actively Jewish militis outside in
33:02
Speaker 2: the US, in the UK, and there are various iterations
33:05
Speaker 2: of these organizations. And what we were seeing is the
33:08
Speaker 2: return effectively of Jewish terrorists to the streets in the West,
33:12
Speaker 2: which hasn't been the case since around the nineteen forties,
33:16
Speaker 2: when of course the Argon and the Lehe the Staring
33:20
Speaker 2: Gang were engaged in terrorist activities in the UK up
33:24
Speaker 2: and down the UK, including of course the famous Argon
33:27
Speaker 2: Cell in Glasgow, which people are often not aware of.
33:31
Speaker 1: We talked a bit about the history the links between
33:36
Speaker 1: the Zirest moment in Ukraine through the nineteen twenties, thirties
33:41
Speaker 1: and forties, but this obviously goes right up to the
33:44
Speaker 1: present day. I mean, to what extent is this embedded
33:48
Speaker 1: into organizations like the Idea for example.
33:52
Speaker 2: Well, this is the other thing. I mean, you're remarking
33:56
Speaker 2: about this. People are finding it difficult to get the
33:58
Speaker 2: head around Nazi and the Zionists cooperating in the twenties
34:03
Speaker 2: and thirties. Well, it's happening today as well. I mean,
34:05
Speaker 2: let's remember that there are Nazi militias inside the Ukrainian
34:10
Speaker 2: armed forces, in fact, increasingly over the period since the
34:15
Speaker 2: SMO was launched, having effectively the whipan inside Ukrainian military forces. Now,
34:22
Speaker 2: amongst those who have joined up to the Ukrainian military
34:26
Speaker 2: are a number of Ukrainian Jews, including members of the
34:31
Speaker 2: Habad sect, which is a genocidal Hasidic Jewish sect which
34:36
Speaker 2: is organized all around the world. We'll talk about that
34:38
Speaker 2: more in a minute, but that the role of the
34:42
Speaker 2: of the Zionists in the Nazi movements inside Ukrainians is instructive.
34:50
Speaker 2: One of the founders, the two co founders of Battalion,
34:55
Speaker 2: the famous Nazi group inside the Ukrainian Armed Forces, was
34:58
Speaker 2: an ex IDF officer. So that those kinds of legs
35:02
Speaker 2: are are they are baked in from the beginning of
35:05
Speaker 2: the Nazi movement in Ukraine, and it's no surprise there
35:08
Speaker 2: before that organizations like Habad and indeed other Orthodox Jews
35:13
Speaker 2: in Ukraine have joined up with both non Nazi forces
35:18
Speaker 2: in Ukraine and indeed with a Nazi forces. How Bad
35:21
Speaker 2: is an organization which comes from a place called Lubavici,
35:26
Speaker 2: which I think is now in present day Belarus, and
35:31
Speaker 2: the headquarters of the organization is in Brooklyn, famously revealed
35:39
Speaker 2: just the other year year last year, I think it
35:42
Speaker 2: was as having secret tunnels built under it by some
35:46
Speaker 2: kind of rebel faction within the organization. Now Habad is
35:49
Speaker 2: a genocidal organization it's an organization which believes that that
35:53
Speaker 2: non Jews have animal souls. It's an organization which is,
35:57
Speaker 2: according to the shin Bet, the Zionis intelligence agency involved
36:01
Speaker 2: in most of the price Tag revenge attacks on Palestinians
36:06
Speaker 2: in the West Bank around the settlement of Vitsar. And
36:09
Speaker 2: of course it's an organization which has outreach emissaries all
36:15
Speaker 2: around the world. It's five thousand branches in different parts
36:18
Speaker 2: of the world, thirteen hundred in America, one hundred and
36:20
Speaker 2: fifty in Britain, one hundred and fifteen Canada, and organizations
36:25
Speaker 2: all the way across the Ukraine. Dense network in the
36:28
Speaker 2: Ukraine and indeed, of course in Russia, which we might
36:31
Speaker 2: come on to later. Now in Ukraine, they, how bad,
36:36
Speaker 2: have been close to one of the key oligarchs in Ukraine,
36:41
Speaker 2: a guy called Igor column Oiscame, who of course owned
36:46
Speaker 2: the television station where Zelenski got his start and then
36:50
Speaker 2: funded Zelenska in his campaign to become prime minister or president.
36:55
Speaker 2: He then fell out with Zelenska, but amongst the other
36:59
Speaker 2: things which he was funding where the Idr Nazi Idar
37:02
Speaker 2: Battalion and indeed the Azov Battalion as well. As funding
37:06
Speaker 2: being one of the key funders of the what's called
37:09
Speaker 2: the biggest Jewish community center in the world in Nepro Petrovsk,
37:13
Speaker 2: which is a Habat center, which there's plenty of little
37:16
Speaker 2: videos on online. You can go look at that architecturally
37:22
Speaker 2: questionable building. Let me put it that way. So, look,
37:25
Speaker 2: the connections between extreme ultra Zionist genocidal organizations and the
37:33
Speaker 2: Nazis in Ukraine are not something that have been dreamt
37:36
Speaker 2: up by people who are conspiracy theorists or on the
37:39
Speaker 2: left or whatever. These are actual relationships. Now, Colboiskiv of
37:43
Speaker 2: course was involved also in a number of corruption charges
37:47
Speaker 2: in terms of effectively theft of public assets in the
37:52
Speaker 2: but also the way in which that was then the
37:54
Speaker 2: money from that was then laundered through European institutions and
37:58
Speaker 2: into the US. There was a network in the US,
38:01
Speaker 2: in Florida and in New York State of charities which
38:07
Speaker 2: were laundering the money, and these charities were all on
38:10
Speaker 2: again by Habad. So there's a really interesting sort of
38:14
Speaker 2: underworld here to this, which does suggest that the relationships
38:18
Speaker 2: which in Zionism and Nazism in Ukraine and the Ukrainian
38:22
Speaker 2: government are not something which are just.
38:27
Speaker 1: Marginal, certainly not Vanessa. Would you guys to weigh on that.
38:31
Speaker 4: Reports also of former or even current IOF military fighting
38:39
Speaker 4: in Ukraine, because I think her ex put out an
38:41
Speaker 4: article bemoaning the fact that they weren't being recognized as
38:45
Speaker 4: fallen when I think between up to sixteen ILF fighters
38:50
Speaker 4: were killed in Ukraine, but even during the twenty fourteen
38:55
Speaker 4: who organized of course by largely Victorian new lond with
39:00
Speaker 4: the US administration backing when she made the famous phone
39:04
Speaker 4: call during which she told the EU to bugger off.
39:08
Speaker 3: I'm saying it far more politely.
39:10
Speaker 4: Than she did, and basically they were known to be
39:16
Speaker 4: IOF militia fighting at that time among.
39:21
Speaker 3: Those that were leading.
39:23
Speaker 4: The coup and also massacring the civilians of course in
39:26
Speaker 4: the Maydan and in Odasa itself ironically enough, but not
39:31
Speaker 4: only that, Israel has been supplying weapons, including the table rifles,
39:36
Speaker 4: to the Ukrainian militia and to the idore and as
39:39
Speaker 4: of Battalians, And of course, not forgetting Zelensky's rather bizarre
39:44
Speaker 4: comment that Ukraine will become big Israel, which I think.
39:48
Speaker 3: Was fairly early on in the.
39:52
Speaker 4: Conflict, and the fact that Olena Zelenski. I'm not sure
39:58
Speaker 4: actually whether Zelenski joined her himself in the end, but
40:01
Speaker 4: Alona Zelenski visited.
40:03
Speaker 3: Israel, as did.
40:04
Speaker 4: I think it's Iliya Smolyenko who was a member of
40:08
Speaker 4: intelligence within as of battalion and who visited.
40:14
Speaker 3: After the the.
40:17
Speaker 4: What was the big factory in It's just as of something. Anyway,
40:25
Speaker 4: he visited Israel a guest.
40:29
Speaker 3: Thank you, that's it.
40:32
Speaker 4: And he visited Israel and was sort of given red
40:35
Speaker 4: cropt treatment by Natanyahu and his administration. And so, as
40:41
Speaker 4: you said, the connections between Ukraine and Israel have continued
40:47
Speaker 4: pretty far into the present day. And and I believe
40:50
Speaker 4: actually that one of Natanya whose election promises was a
40:54
Speaker 4: victory for Ukraine along with support freedom photos in yourn
41:02
Speaker 4: of course.
41:03
Speaker 1: So the Chabad thing, I think is absolutely crucial to
41:07
Speaker 1: understand as well, right because we've talked about the political
41:11
Speaker 1: background to this, but I think that the theological background
41:15
Speaker 1: is as if not more important. You describe Chabad as
41:18
Speaker 1: a genocidal organization, some of their texts are absolutely astonishing
41:23
Speaker 1: or provide some links, so people go and have a
41:25
Speaker 1: look at this stuff for themselves. And the Chabad Rabbi
41:29
Speaker 1: I'm going to say this incorrectly, but it's menashing Mendel
41:32
Speaker 1: Schneerson is the way I'm going to pronounce it. Please
41:36
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm not doing that right, doing that justice.
41:40
Speaker 1: But he had an extraordinarily close relationship with nettin Yahoo.
41:44
Speaker 1: Now many people actually view Schneiers and certainly within the
41:49
Speaker 1: Chabad movement, as actually being the Jewish Messiah. I don't
41:53
Speaker 1: think that he actually adopted that mantle himself, and I
41:56
Speaker 1: do seem to remember him it being reported that he
42:00
Speaker 1: told netting Yaho that he would that Netting ya who
42:04
Speaker 1: himself would see the arrival of the Messiah in his lifetime.
42:08
Speaker 1: So there's some kind of prophetic stuff happening here as
42:10
Speaker 1: well that I don't think people really properly understand. And
42:15
Speaker 1: he was I think, as you mentioned, a moment ago
42:18
Speaker 1: born in what is now today Ukraine, right, I mean,
42:21
Speaker 1: so the depth of this is, you know, it's not
42:26
Speaker 1: just political. It runs a lot, a lot deeper than that.
42:30
Speaker 2: Well, look, I think people don't understand. You see, the theology,
42:36
Speaker 2: and the theology is quite important. I mean, you know,
42:38
Speaker 2: I'm I am sort of a materialist. I believe that
42:43
Speaker 2: material things shape the world. But of course ideas about
42:47
Speaker 2: how the world is and how the world might be
42:49
Speaker 2: also help to ship the material world. So I think
42:53
Speaker 2: we should understand that Habad is a Hasidic sect, yes,
42:57
Speaker 2: and it's a it's a kind of outreach organizations. So
43:00
Speaker 2: it has these five thousand odd offices around the world.
43:04
Speaker 2: But there are hundreds of other well not hundreds, but
43:07
Speaker 2: there are lots of other Hasidic sects, most of which
43:10
Speaker 2: are inward looking and which have very similar views to
43:14
Speaker 2: him theologically and about the state of Israel. There are
43:18
Speaker 2: very few, I mean, let me, let me just try
43:20
Speaker 2: and explain this. So from the beginning are these sects.
43:23
Speaker 2: They almost all of them come from Eastern Europe, from Lithuania,
43:27
Speaker 2: from Poland, from Hungary, from bel Rose, from Ukraine, and
43:31
Speaker 2: indeed from what's now Russia. And as the boys from
43:36
Speaker 2: Natura Karta, the well known anti Zionist Hasidic group, are
43:42
Speaker 2: always saying, but in nineteen forty seven the chief rabbis
43:46
Speaker 2: were agreed there should not be a Jewish state, and
43:49
Speaker 2: that it was the responsibility not of humans to create
43:53
Speaker 2: a Jewish state, but only of the divine. And so
43:56
Speaker 2: they were all at that stage at design right now,
44:01
Speaker 2: people find it very difficult to get their heads around this.
44:04
Speaker 2: These were anti Zionists in the sense that they didn't
44:06
Speaker 2: believe that humans, that the Zionist movement had the right
44:11
Speaker 2: or the ability even to create a Jewish state, and
44:14
Speaker 2: if they did create a Jewish state, it was outside
44:17
Speaker 2: the realms of religion and something to be condemned. Now,
44:20
Speaker 2: of course, what happened after the creation of the State
44:22
Speaker 2: of Israel was that they, almost all of them, made
44:25
Speaker 2: their peace with Zionisms. Some of them, of course, remain
44:29
Speaker 2: of the view that they are young shouldn't serve in
44:31
Speaker 2: the IDF, well at the same time being practically supportive
44:37
Speaker 2: of the Zionist state, including of course serving in the
44:39
Speaker 2: cabinet Nitnya, who's current cabinet. They have people in there
44:43
Speaker 2: whose young people don't join the IDF indredible. So these
44:47
Speaker 2: are anti Zionist people who are Jewish supremacists, right, That's
44:52
Speaker 2: the distinction I would make. Not all Jewish supremacists are Zionists,
44:56
Speaker 2: All Zionists are Jewish supremacists, But there are anti Zionist
44:59
Speaker 2: Jewish supremacists who, of course, in almost all cases are
45:03
Speaker 2: happy to collaborate with the State of Israel's one large
45:06
Speaker 2: sex called the Satmar, which remains anti Zionist in a
45:10
Speaker 2: more straightforward way, but they are not in favor of
45:13
Speaker 2: Palistinian liberation. So there's a whole range of these Hasidic groups,
45:18
Speaker 2: almost all from Eastern Europe, almost all of which are
45:21
Speaker 2: Jewish supremacists and indeed genocidal. How bad or interesting because
45:26
Speaker 2: they are the only outreach grouping. They have these offices
45:30
Speaker 2: all around the world. The others don't do that. They
45:32
Speaker 2: have their own religious organizations and their own shavas and
45:36
Speaker 2: et cetera, but are there to convert and convinced that
45:40
Speaker 2: convert non use to some extent, but mainly to bring Jews,
45:45
Speaker 2: either observing or non observing Jews, further towards the ultra
45:49
Speaker 2: orthodox position, and that seems to be the thing which
45:51
Speaker 2: they are most successful at that there's evidence from the
45:56
Speaker 2: Zionists from Zionist service on campus in the US that
45:59
Speaker 2: the people who are most are taken along by and
46:03
Speaker 2: taken in by Kabad are not people who are already
46:07
Speaker 2: ultra Orthodox, but people who are in the reform or
46:10
Speaker 2: the progressive or the liberal wing of Judaism, of which
46:13
Speaker 2: of course are Zionist pseudergargue movements. So that's that their role.
46:18
Speaker 2: Their role is to radicalize and to bring people to
46:21
Speaker 2: the position of supporting the genocide in a way which
46:25
Speaker 2: Edessa has been outlining, which the so called extremists in
46:29
Speaker 2: Nahu's government are doing now. Of course, that they Shneerson
46:33
Speaker 2: the Rebbe who died in nineteen ninety four. No, I
46:35
Speaker 2: don't think he believed he was the Messiah, that all
46:38
Speaker 2: of the all the Habad doesn't believe that he's the Messiah.
46:41
Speaker 2: There's a faction who believe that he's the Messiah, and
46:44
Speaker 2: the faction who believe that he's not. But they are.
46:48
Speaker 2: They are that they believe in the third in the
46:50
Speaker 2: building of the Temple, the destruction of Alaxa, in the
46:53
Speaker 2: same way as many of the other factions who are
46:55
Speaker 2: engaged in that kind of activity do as well. So
46:57
Speaker 2: they have a sort of role in radicalizing the more
47:04
Speaker 2: secularist Zionist movement. And you can see in the history
47:08
Speaker 2: that we've had over the last ninety or one hundred
47:13
Speaker 2: years that there's been a trajectory from the dominance of
47:17
Speaker 2: a secular leftist Zionism towards a secular rightist Zionism. With
47:22
Speaker 2: the dominant of revision of scientism in Israeli politics since
47:26
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy seven towards them more religious, bigger role for
47:32
Speaker 2: religious Zionists and the ultra Orthodox, and that's what we're
47:34
Speaker 2: seeing now.
47:34
Speaker 1: I think i'd like to introduce you and certainly our views.
47:38
Speaker 1: You're probably familiar with this, David and Vanessa, right, and
47:41
Speaker 1: people might have clopped. I've got a Jewish surname and
47:44
Speaker 1: a Jewish first name as well. Actually I'm a coll
47:46
Speaker 1: to Jewish and i was raised as an atheist. But
47:49
Speaker 1: I've never been in a shin agoga, i don't speak Hebrew,
47:51
Speaker 1: and I'm just a bit of a random mixture, to
47:54
Speaker 1: be honest with you. But there is a phrase that
47:55
Speaker 1: I hear quite a bit when I get invited to
47:57
Speaker 1: Jewish events and I speak to Jewish people as on
48:00
Speaker 1: a on a regular basis, that two Jews, three opinions.
48:05
Speaker 1: And that really seems to be coming through in what
48:09
Speaker 1: you've just described to us there, David, in terms of
48:12
Speaker 1: the situation that we have in front of us, the
48:17
Speaker 1: the the role of Chabad as you just described, to
48:20
Speaker 1: radicalize the other Jewish organizations in the reform progressive and
48:28
Speaker 1: the liberal areas of Judaism is very interesting. And the
48:38
Speaker 1: also I think if we might just just jump back
48:40
Speaker 1: to the US now, I'm particularly interested in the influencer
48:46
Speaker 1: they're exerting over the current sitting US president because we
48:51
Speaker 1: talked about Chabad's headquarters in New York, and Trump visited there.
48:58
Speaker 1: I can't actually, off the top of my head remember
49:00
Speaker 1: if it was pre or post election last year, but
49:03
Speaker 1: there was a number of videos circulating online of him
49:06
Speaker 1: visiting the headquarters or visiting and praying at the grave
49:12
Speaker 1: of Menish Mendel Schneerson. And there are even suggestions, not
49:21
Speaker 1: least from people in Trump's in a circle, that he
49:24
Speaker 1: is in fact the first Jewish president of the United States.
49:27
Speaker 1: I mean, to what extent do you think that could
49:30
Speaker 1: be true?
49:31
Speaker 2: Look, the relationship between Habad and the Trump camp is
49:37
Speaker 2: reasonably well known. I mean, the Trump himself, through one ofndations,
49:42
Speaker 2: has directly funded Habad. Of course, he's made a point
49:45
Speaker 2: of visiting them and going to Schneerson's grave and you know,
49:51
Speaker 2: hanging out with them. He's had them in to visit him.
49:54
Speaker 2: But of course, let's remember that the key link between
49:59
Speaker 2: Trump and Habaud is his son in law Kushner and
50:04
Speaker 2: he and Trump's daughter who to whom he's married. Of
50:07
Speaker 2: course they attend Haabad shoal In in d C. When
50:12
Speaker 2: when they're there, and Kushner has given huge sums of
50:16
Speaker 2: money to have Bad in the US, I think perhaps
50:20
Speaker 2: elsewhere as well. So there's there's a connection there that
50:23
Speaker 2: that it's not just that the Habad are trying to
50:26
Speaker 2: influence the president, but the president's son in law is
50:29
Speaker 2: actually funding ha Bad And so that's kind of part
50:32
Speaker 2: of the intrigue here. And let's remember that Kushner's role
50:37
Speaker 2: is not just to push the interests of the official
50:42
Speaker 2: Zionist movement or the ultra those guys like Habad, but
50:46
Speaker 2: also to to effectively grease the wheels of the normalization process.
50:52
Speaker 2: And that's why he's had this massive involvement with the Saudis,
50:56
Speaker 2: indeed to some extent with the UEE and the use
51:00
Speaker 2: of this sovereign wealth SOI sover and wealth fund the
51:02
Speaker 2: massive kickbacks and braves that have been going to the
51:05
Speaker 2: Trump family, and no doubt in future years we'll find
51:08
Speaker 2: out that they're much more extensive than we are currently
51:11
Speaker 2: aware of. So that's all part of this mix here
51:14
Speaker 2: that there's a direct question of corruption. But asked to
51:20
Speaker 2: whether Don Trump himself is due, I was converted. I
51:24
Speaker 2: don't know. I don't pretend to have the information on that,
51:26
Speaker 2: but you know, it's not impossible, is it?
51:30
Speaker 1: Stranger? Things have certainly happened. Vanissa, Do you have any
51:33
Speaker 1: thoughts on this?
51:35
Speaker 4: I think it's very important to understand the importance of
51:41
Speaker 4: the Zionist influence through Jared Kushner. I mean, David mentioned
51:45
Speaker 4: this normalization program which began under the first Trump administration
51:52
Speaker 4: termed the Abraham Accords, and of course that basically brought
51:57
Speaker 4: in I think it was Morocco, Sudan and you A
52:01
Speaker 4: as the initial adherence to that accord. But of course
52:05
Speaker 4: what we're seeing now is Trump putting pressure on the
52:11
Speaker 4: al Qaeda self elected president of Syria Joe Lanni, to
52:17
Speaker 4: lift the sanctions in order for him to agree to
52:22
Speaker 4: normalize relations with Israel under those Abraham Accords. So those
52:28
Speaker 4: Abraham Accords were an incredibly important step which began back
52:34
Speaker 4: in nineteen ninety seven with the CIA scripting of the
52:40
Speaker 4: Clean Break Doctrine, which was commissioned by then politician Benyamin
52:46
Speaker 4: Natan Yahoo, which actually again was an extension of Jabatinski's
52:52
Speaker 4: expansionist strategy to our partition all of the neighboring trees
53:00
Speaker 4: to Israel to both weaken them and give Israel an
53:05
Speaker 4: opportunity to have greater influence in the partitions that would
53:09
Speaker 4: be created.
53:10
Speaker 3: And of course that's exactly.
53:11
Speaker 4: What we're now seeing in Syria is the coming to
53:15
Speaker 4: fruition of Nataniahu's vision which originated with Jabatinsky in Ukraine
53:23
Speaker 4: and the partitioning not only the extermination of Palestinians and
53:28
Speaker 4: the final supremacy of Zionism over Palestinian territory, but also
53:32
Speaker 4: this partitioning and normalization of relations with all neighboring countries,
53:39
Speaker 4: the destruction of resistance to Israel, and the weakening of
53:44
Speaker 4: every single nation that may.
53:46
Speaker 3: Pose a threat to Israel in the future. And this
53:50
Speaker 3: began in Ukraine.
53:53
Speaker 4: I think this is what is very important for people
53:56
Speaker 4: to keep relating to. You know, David goes into fantastic depth.
54:03
Speaker 4: I tend to simplify things a little bit more for
54:08
Speaker 4: people in particular who are struggling with this kind of
54:12
Speaker 4: As you said, three do what is it?
54:14
Speaker 1: Two dos?
54:14
Speaker 3: But you have three opinions of et cetera.
54:17
Speaker 4: Because It becomes so complex when you get into the
54:21
Speaker 4: different factions, the competing factions, even within Zionism itself, within
54:26
Speaker 4: the Knesset, within and so on. I mean in Ukraine
54:30
Speaker 4: there was even the creation of kind of uh, what
54:34
Speaker 4: was it, a blending of Marxism and Zionism, right, So
54:39
Speaker 4: there there were there were different factions.
54:42
Speaker 3: Even in Ukraine.
54:43
Speaker 4: You had the Jabbatinski, you had the Love of Zion
54:46
Speaker 4: which was Leon Pinsker. You had Bev Baraschov, who created
54:52
Speaker 4: the synthesis between Marxism and Zionism, which then became the
54:55
Speaker 4: Israeli Labor Party. And I had harm who who created
55:01
Speaker 4: the society Bene Mooshe, which was a form of cultural Zionism.
55:05
Speaker 4: So in all of these factions you have these these
55:10
Speaker 4: sub sections.
55:11
Speaker 3: Let's say that may on.
55:14
Speaker 4: Some subjects or on some strategies have common ground and
55:17
Speaker 4: in others not.
55:20
Speaker 3: So.
55:21
Speaker 4: But I think in the end, if we look at
55:23
Speaker 4: direction of travel, we're heading in the direction of travel
55:26
Speaker 4: that Jabotinsky foresaw and that Natano who's father.
55:32
Speaker 3: Certainly supported, and Natano who has.
55:34
Speaker 4: Picked up and run with and I think you know
55:36
Speaker 4: that that for me is becoming even more clear with
55:41
Speaker 4: what's happening in the region, not only in Palestine.
55:45
Speaker 1: Yes, I use the term cynicism earlier, but I also
55:48
Speaker 1: think maybe pragmatism in pursuit or a shared objective is
55:53
Speaker 1: what we're looking at with a lot of this stuff.
55:56
Speaker 1: Did reference to communism and Zionism, I think is really interesting.
56:00
Speaker 1: I saw a quite I'm going to forget the name.
56:01
Speaker 1: Maybe one of you can can help me out with it.
56:04
Speaker 1: But the guy that ran the gulags for Stalin quoted
56:08
Speaker 1: as saying, some people call it communism, I call it Judaism.
56:11
Speaker 3: Right.
56:12
Speaker 1: So these things are very closely and intrinsically linked with
56:15
Speaker 1: each other.
56:16
Speaker 3: Right.
56:17
Speaker 1: So this is fascinating, a fascinating discussion I want to
56:24
Speaker 1: think about. We talked a lot about the historical context,
56:28
Speaker 1: the deep connections between these two countries, these different ideological systems.
56:33
Speaker 1: How is this being enabled and enforced in the media
56:38
Speaker 1: and the political system. Let's if we could focus on
56:44
Speaker 1: the UK, but also let's just think more broadly across
56:47
Speaker 1: the US. We've talked about these influenced networks, but you
56:49
Speaker 1: know how we're actually seeing this coming to light in
56:53
Speaker 1: the media around you know, let's talk about some names
56:57
Speaker 1: even you know, the BBC, The Guardian, maybe some of
57:01
Speaker 1: these other commentitors in the British system today.
57:04
Speaker 2: Well look, these are I think complex matters to send.
57:10
Speaker 2: But the way in which these influenced networks operate, I
57:15
Speaker 2: think is much more sophisticated and more deeply embedded than
57:21
Speaker 2: perhaps we have understood. So the way which people tend
57:24
Speaker 2: to talk about these things is that they talk about
57:26
Speaker 2: the Israel Lobby. And of course have been some famous
57:29
Speaker 2: books on that issue. The first of which, of course,
57:34
Speaker 2: which broke the whole issue open was John Meyersheimer and
57:38
Speaker 2: Steve Waltz book The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy
57:41
Speaker 2: from two thousand and funnel and then of course more
57:43
Speaker 2: recently we've had all Pappy's book on the Zionist Lobby,
57:46
Speaker 2: History of the Desius Lobby in the US and the UK.
57:50
Speaker 2: But lookly the Israel Lobby is only a small fraction
57:53
Speaker 2: of what the Zionist movement does, and I think the
57:56
Speaker 2: other elements of what it does, which I'll talk about
57:58
Speaker 2: in a minute, are the ones where there's which are
58:00
Speaker 2: really important. So the is Reel lobby, of course, is
58:03
Speaker 2: the organizations that we all know about which is there
58:06
Speaker 2: to influence US, UK and other European countries and indeed
58:10
Speaker 2: other countries in general, to influence their foreign policy and
58:14
Speaker 2: indeed aspects of their domestic policy. So in the US,
58:19
Speaker 2: everybody knows that there's the there's a PAC, there's the
58:23
Speaker 2: Antidefamation League, there's the Foundation for Demenial Democracies, and a
58:27
Speaker 2: number of other think tanks, lobby groups, et cetera. And
58:30
Speaker 2: that's the Israel lobby. Okay, Now they are important, and
58:34
Speaker 2: they do exert power and do exert influence. But there's
58:37
Speaker 2: another way in which the Zionist movement operates, which is it.
58:40
Speaker 2: It's the Zion's movement is a broader thing than the
58:43
Speaker 2: Israel Lobby, and the Zius movement is there to ensure
58:46
Speaker 2: that Zionist ideas are spread and made powerful around the world.
58:52
Speaker 2: They state this openly in their founding Manifesto, which was
58:56
Speaker 2: created in nineteen fifty one at the World Zionis called Gress,
59:01
Speaker 2: the first one they held after they created the so
59:04
Speaker 2: called state of Israel, and in that Congress they said, right,
59:08
Speaker 2: we've got what we wanted. Had they had a program
59:12
Speaker 2: before called the Ball program, the Basil program based on
59:15
Speaker 2: the Congress where they decided that in Switzerland and we've
59:20
Speaker 2: got one time, we've got a Jewish state. What will
59:22
Speaker 2: we do now? Will we just demobilized the Zionist movement
59:26
Speaker 2: And they said, no, no, We'll not doing that. And
59:30
Speaker 2: they had a vote on this and there were no
59:31
Speaker 2: votes against. There were some people who who have to vote,
59:34
Speaker 2: who have stayed, but there were no votes against, and
59:36
Speaker 2: they voted. I think it's four hundred and thirty eight
59:41
Speaker 2: votes to zero. I forget the exact votes to continue
59:43
Speaker 2: with the Zionist movement. And amongst the things they said
59:45
Speaker 2: that we do is strengthen the influence of Zionism in
59:49
Speaker 2: the community, meaning the Jewish community wherever it's organized, in
59:52
Speaker 2: the US, the UK and elsewhere. And that's what they do,
59:56
Speaker 2: and that has two elements to it. First of all,
59:59
Speaker 2: they want to recruit and train the young people in
1:00:02
Speaker 2: the ideology of Zionism so that they can go on
1:00:04
Speaker 2: to become Zionist later in life. Sometimes that will mean,
1:00:08
Speaker 2: you know, going to become colonists in an occupied Palestine,
1:00:14
Speaker 2: join the idea, et cetera. But on other occasions what
1:00:17
Speaker 2: it means is joining Zionist organizations in the UK or
1:00:20
Speaker 2: the US, et cetera. But a further element of this,
1:00:23
Speaker 2: of course, is infiltrating the societies in which they operate,
1:00:26
Speaker 2: such that when the moment comes, when the tap on
1:00:30
Speaker 2: the shoulder comes. I like to say the tap on
1:00:33
Speaker 2: the shoulder comes, but of course in many cases the
1:00:35
Speaker 2: tap on the shoulders that needed when the moment comes
1:00:37
Speaker 2: to do the right thing for the Zionist movement. When
1:00:39
Speaker 2: you're high up in the BBC or the Financial Times,
1:00:42
Speaker 2: or in a financial corporation, or in the civil service,
1:00:47
Speaker 2: or in the police, or or wherever it is, when
1:00:50
Speaker 2: the moment comes, you will take that. They want you
1:00:52
Speaker 2: to take the right decision in favor of the Zionist movement.
1:00:55
Speaker 2: And that's what you have to have an understanding of
1:00:58
Speaker 2: that in order to understand the way in which the
1:01:01
Speaker 2: institutions of this society and many other societies in the
1:01:04
Speaker 2: West especially have been penetrated and infiltrated by the Zionist movement.
1:01:08
Speaker 2: Take the example of the media. You raise the issue
1:01:10
Speaker 2: of the media now. People have been going on about
1:01:12
Speaker 2: the BBC for the last few months, especially since Owen
1:01:15
Speaker 2: Jones wrote this article in December or January where he
1:01:19
Speaker 2: revealed that Raffi Berg, who was in charge of the
1:01:23
Speaker 2: BBC's website was effectively operating a kind of a mechanism
1:01:29
Speaker 2: whereby he had to authorize or approve almost all BBC
1:01:33
Speaker 2: coverage of Palist Now he is a fanatical Zionist, and
1:01:36
Speaker 2: of course this is an important element of control by
1:01:41
Speaker 2: Zionism of the BBC, because they've got a person in sight.
1:01:45
Speaker 2: The other element, of course is the massive propaganda streams
1:01:48
Speaker 2: that come from Tel Aviva, indeed from the British government
1:01:51
Speaker 2: as well in supporting the Zionists. But I think the
1:01:53
Speaker 2: other thing you've got to understand is that it's not
1:01:55
Speaker 2: just external pressure which causes the BBC, and it's not
1:01:58
Speaker 2: just the fact of one person inside the BBC which
1:02:01
Speaker 2: causes the BBC to be so pro Zionist. It's also
1:02:04
Speaker 2: that they have people high up in the hierarchy and
1:02:06
Speaker 2: in fact in the most senior committees of the BBC,
1:02:09
Speaker 2: who are themselves Zionists. So the most committee in the
1:02:13
Speaker 2: BBC has I think five people on it. The CEO
1:02:17
Speaker 2: of BBC News, a guy called Robbie Gibb is on it,
1:02:21
Speaker 2: a guy called Nicholas Sorota who is the external representative,
1:02:25
Speaker 2: a couple of other people who I forget now, but
1:02:27
Speaker 2: they always have. Of the five people on the committee,
1:02:30
Speaker 2: they always have at least two who are convinced rabid Zionists.
1:02:35
Speaker 2: Robbie Gibb is a perfect example. This is a guy
1:02:37
Speaker 2: who runs the Jewish Chronicle. Took over the Jewish Chronicle
1:02:40
Speaker 2: when it was failing because of so many Libel defeats,
1:02:43
Speaker 2: and it's now become even more extremely in its Zionism
1:02:46
Speaker 2: in the last two years as a result of him
1:02:50
Speaker 2: taking over the organization. So if you want to understand
1:02:55
Speaker 2: why Zionism gets so much favorable coverage in the media, yes,
1:03:00
Speaker 2: to do with external pressures and pr and propaganda and
1:03:03
Speaker 2: all the usual things has man ay as they call
1:03:05
Speaker 2: it in Israel. But it's also to do with the
1:03:07
Speaker 2: fact that there are Zionists inside all these news organizations,
1:03:11
Speaker 2: quite often in prime positions, for example, Sky and News.
1:03:14
Speaker 2: It's the case. It's the case in the Financial Times,
1:03:16
Speaker 2: it's the case in the Guardian, it's the case in
1:03:19
Speaker 2: the Meal and many other media overs as well. So
1:03:23
Speaker 2: it's it's external and internal influences.
1:03:27
Speaker 1: And a lot of this is about, i think, embedding
1:03:30
Speaker 1: confusion into the public discourse because right the organizations we've
1:03:35
Speaker 1: talked about the pretty much dominant accepted narrative I would
1:03:43
Speaker 1: stay across the whole of mainstream media is to is
1:03:48
Speaker 1: pro Ukraine, anti Putin's, Putin's war, it's a war of aggression.
1:03:52
Speaker 1: All of these terms that were here in a constant basis, right,
1:03:54
Speaker 1: So they've really embedded that and they allow some lively
1:03:59
Speaker 1: debate between in both sides of the argument as it
1:04:03
Speaker 1: relates to Israel and Palestine. But it's this Ukraine, this
1:04:09
Speaker 1: this adamant insistence that Ukraine are the good guys and
1:04:12
Speaker 1: Putin's the bad guy while allowing some lively debate over
1:04:15
Speaker 1: here that I think is one of the main essentially
1:04:20
Speaker 1: divide and rule tactics that they have for sowing discord
1:04:23
Speaker 1: amongst the population right and the Actually we talked about
1:04:27
Speaker 1: the media. One of the most striking things I've seen
1:04:30
Speaker 1: over the past few days just popped up in my
1:04:32
Speaker 1: timeline on LinkedIn. I think it was was one of
1:04:37
Speaker 1: the chief executive of one of the biggest charities in
1:04:42
Speaker 1: the UK and internationally based in the UK, International Charity
1:04:47
Speaker 1: who attended the pro Palestine march in London over the weekend,
1:04:51
Speaker 1: was sharing a lot of the images from the march
1:04:54
Speaker 1: and talking about what an important moment it was. And
1:04:57
Speaker 1: then I actually clicked on to have a look at
1:04:59
Speaker 1: her own profile page, and the header image is her
1:05:03
Speaker 1: speaking on stage at a pro Ukraine event in Travagar Square.
1:05:08
Speaker 1: It looked like I can't remember exactly the location, and
1:05:11
Speaker 1: that to me was just the perfect example of how
1:05:13
Speaker 1: this thing has just been really deeply, deeply embedded into
1:05:17
Speaker 1: the discourse and it's really astonishing how they've managed to
1:05:20
Speaker 1: do it.
1:05:21
Speaker 2: Well. I think that's that's right. I mean, there are
1:05:25
Speaker 2: there are people on the left who who have become
1:05:32
Speaker 2: even better than they were before on the question of
1:05:34
Speaker 2: past then, but still some of those people have a
1:05:38
Speaker 2: blame that they can't quite get to the idea that
1:05:44
Speaker 2: Russia might not be what's the idea of Russia which
1:05:50
Speaker 2: is encouraged in all the kind of needle propaganda fantasies.
1:05:54
Speaker 2: So that's a kind of an interesting thing, is that
1:05:56
Speaker 2: people can't sort of divorce themselves from that element of propaganda.
1:06:00
Speaker 2: They can perfectly well deconstruct is Really and Zionist propaganda,
1:06:05
Speaker 2: the British government's ridiculous defenses of Israel, they can deconstruct
1:06:11
Speaker 2: David Lamb, the intelligence flights over Gaza, but they can't
1:06:16
Speaker 2: quite bring themselves to deconstruct the views which were given
1:06:19
Speaker 2: about Russia. And that's kind of interesting in itself, and
1:06:23
Speaker 2: of course it reminds one of of the famous Bob
1:06:26
Speaker 2: Dylan song about I've learned to hate the Russians all
1:06:30
Speaker 2: through my whole life. If another war comes, it's then
1:06:33
Speaker 2: we must fight. And that of course is very very
1:06:36
Speaker 2: deep in the psyche. Actually more is deeper than we
1:06:39
Speaker 2: perhaps we thought, so that's an interesting thing to see,
1:06:43
Speaker 2: and also it indicates the need for us to redouble
1:06:47
Speaker 2: our efforts at deconstructing anti Russian propaganda has been flooding
1:06:51
Speaker 2: our media for many years now through the alleged assassination
1:06:56
Speaker 2: campaigns which flood that we have puted IS operations against that.
1:07:00
Speaker 2: This is these the alleged poisoning of the Scrippiles, remember
1:07:04
Speaker 2: that that's ridiculous fiasco. And then of course the Integrity Initiative,
1:07:09
Speaker 2: all those documents which which were leaked sure that there
1:07:13
Speaker 2: was a military intelligence project dedicated to count in Russian
1:07:16
Speaker 2: propaganda which was actually mainly focusing on attacking Jeremy Corbyn,
1:07:21
Speaker 2: and so all of that has been naturally quite successful
1:07:24
Speaker 2: in it it's pulling of the levers of public consciousness
1:07:27
Speaker 2: in a way which the British government's attempt to defend
1:07:31
Speaker 2: Israel has not.
1:07:32
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I think there's there's certainly a lot of the
1:07:35
Speaker 1: old Cold War stuff still embedded into kind of gen
1:07:38
Speaker 1: X and above right, that's that's certainly the case. I
1:07:41
Speaker 1: think the other thing that's really important now that we're
1:07:44
Speaker 1: talking a little bit about Russia and Putin is to
1:07:46
Speaker 1: understand that you actually don't have to pick a side
1:07:49
Speaker 1: in these conflicts, and it's not always going to necessarily
1:07:52
Speaker 1: be the case that there is a good guy and
1:07:54
Speaker 1: a bad guy fighting. It might be that there are
1:07:56
Speaker 1: two bad guys fighting. And we talked a bit about
1:08:00
Speaker 1: Chabad's relationship with Trump, but these also they also have
1:08:04
Speaker 1: quite a lot of sway in Russia and particularly over
1:08:07
Speaker 1: put It, it would say.
1:08:09
Speaker 2: I don't know too much about that. I mean, certainly
1:08:11
Speaker 2: there is a rabbi who is called Putin's rabbi, who
1:08:15
Speaker 2: is a bad rabbi. But that's because well, I don't
1:08:18
Speaker 2: want to underestimate the potential significance of it. I haven't
1:08:21
Speaker 2: done enough research on us. But certainly it's the case
1:08:23
Speaker 2: that all through Russia and indeed the Ukraine that the
1:08:28
Speaker 2: the the apparatus of Jewish communal representation. So the organizations
1:08:34
Speaker 2: which in Western Europe and the uk are run by
1:08:38
Speaker 2: the official Zionist movement, in the Ukraine and in Russia
1:08:42
Speaker 2: those organizations are run by Habad. And so that's kind
1:08:45
Speaker 2: of an interesting contrast. Of course, we see, we see
1:08:49
Speaker 2: the what happened, maybe we should say about what about Syria.
1:08:52
Speaker 2: So what happened in Syria? Of course the word Russian
1:08:57
Speaker 2: military lookout posts on the border with the Goal and Heights,
1:09:02
Speaker 2: and there was of course the Russian naval base and
1:09:06
Speaker 2: the Russian air base in Syria as part of the
1:09:09
Speaker 2: agreement to help the government of sad uh and that
1:09:13
Speaker 2: of course, and of course the Russians were to some
1:09:15
Speaker 2: extent trying to divert IDF bombers from from from bombing
1:09:23
Speaker 2: Syrian targets. But of course we should also remember that
1:09:26
Speaker 2: the Russians deliberately and openly coordinated with the Israeli Is
1:09:31
Speaker 2: to allow them to bomb Damascus. Now, in retrospect, that's
1:09:36
Speaker 2: an indication of the weakness of the support of Russia
1:09:40
Speaker 2: for Syria, and it's an indication also, I think of
1:09:43
Speaker 2: the the way in which the kind of relationship that
1:09:47
Speaker 2: they have with Habad and with with Israel has is
1:09:52
Speaker 2: worth looking into. For example, there was there's an organization
1:09:55
Speaker 2: called the Jewish Agency, which is one of the four
1:09:58
Speaker 2: pillars of the Zionist movement. Of four of these organizations
1:10:02
Speaker 2: are based in the same building in Jerusalem and King
1:10:05
Speaker 2: George Street, known as the National Institutions, And the Jewish
1:10:08
Speaker 2: Agency's function, one of the four pillars, as I say,
1:10:13
Speaker 2: is to arrange for people to become settler colonists in Palestine.
1:10:20
Speaker 2: The function of the other organizations is of course to
1:10:22
Speaker 2: provide to steal the land so that they can settle there,
1:10:26
Speaker 2: and thirdly to raise the money to pay for all
1:10:30
Speaker 2: of this. Now, the Jewish Agency was about to be
1:10:33
Speaker 2: closed down by put In by Russia, I think in
1:10:37
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, and there was a series of court
1:10:40
Speaker 2: cases which came up, and then they were delayed, and
1:10:42
Speaker 2: they were delayed, and they were delayed, and the Jewish
1:10:44
Speaker 2: Agency has not been shut down as an agent of
1:10:48
Speaker 2: a foreign state which is engaged in hostile activity, which
1:10:52
Speaker 2: it plainly is. So there's an indication, I think, in
1:10:55
Speaker 2: that relationship of the kind of questionable position of Russia
1:11:01
Speaker 2: in relation to the Zionist entity, and that of course
1:11:04
Speaker 2: is how vect or where you would expect about to
1:11:07
Speaker 2: have some kind of influence as well.
1:11:09
Speaker 1: Just layer upon layer of complexity here, let's just finish up.
1:11:15
Speaker 1: Unfortunately we've lost Vanessa because I would have loved her
1:11:17
Speaker 1: to chime in on that that on Syria, of course,
1:11:20
Speaker 1: I mean, it's certainly her area of expertise, But unfortunately
1:11:24
Speaker 1: it looks like the connection has been lost. Just to
1:11:27
Speaker 1: finish up, though you mentioned earlier on the reticence of
1:11:33
Speaker 1: some of the radical left to talk about Zionism because
1:11:38
Speaker 1: they believe that it lets the British and US empires
1:11:41
Speaker 1: off the hook for their role in the things that
1:11:43
Speaker 1: are happening in the world around us today. To what
1:11:47
Speaker 1: extent do you see the British and US empires and
1:11:49
Speaker 1: Zionism as being fundamentally intertwined with each other? I mean,
1:11:53
Speaker 1: is that not essentially just the same thing, just one thing,
1:11:55
Speaker 1: isn't it?
1:11:57
Speaker 2: So I come at this from from having done lots
1:12:02
Speaker 2: and lots of research, And as I've done the research,
1:12:06
Speaker 2: some of the things that I've found may start to
1:12:08
Speaker 2: make me question previously apparently established nostrums or theories. So
1:12:16
Speaker 2: I think that yes, of course, there is a very
1:12:19
Speaker 2: close relationship between the US, the UK and Israel. The
1:12:24
Speaker 2: US is of course the primary sponsor of the genocide.
1:12:28
Speaker 2: It supplies the weapons, that it provides bostical cover, and
1:12:31
Speaker 2: as I've said, the UK provides intelligence over flights, and
1:12:36
Speaker 2: of course we have the Elbert arms firms in the UK,
1:12:40
Speaker 2: which Palestine Action are doing a tremendous job of smashing
1:12:44
Speaker 2: up over the last couple of years. But look, the
1:12:48
Speaker 2: other thing about Zionism is that it's inherently inherently colonial, yes,
1:12:54
Speaker 2: inherently genocidal yes, inherently racist yes, But it's inherently expansionist,
1:13:00
Speaker 2: an eliminationist. So it has to expand. It has They
1:13:04
Speaker 2: has to find more and more places for their people
1:13:06
Speaker 2: to settle. And that doesn't just mean the beachfront apartments
1:13:09
Speaker 2: in Gaza, it doesn't just mean the West Bank. It
1:13:12
Speaker 2: also means, of course invading and expanding their territory into
1:13:16
Speaker 2: what's what they've always said from from you know, right
1:13:20
Speaker 2: back to hertzeul is a greater Israel. Vanessa mentioned the
1:13:26
Speaker 2: the Jebatinski's thoughts on settlement, which of course are in
1:13:30
Speaker 2: the same vein now, of course, that's what that's what
1:13:32
Speaker 2: they're trying to do here there they got pushed back
1:13:34
Speaker 2: out of most of Lebanon, but they still have extra
1:13:37
Speaker 2: bits of Lebanon they didn't have at the beginning of
1:13:39
Speaker 2: last year. They have a huge swathe of the south
1:13:44
Speaker 2: of Syria. Now they what they want to do is
1:13:47
Speaker 2: they want to push into back into Egypt, take the
1:13:49
Speaker 2: whole of Jordan, take most of Iraq, take all of Lebanon,
1:13:53
Speaker 2: all of Syria up to even including part a little
1:13:56
Speaker 2: part of Turkey, the south of Turkey. That's what they
1:13:59
Speaker 2: planned to do, and that's called Greater Israel.
1:14:02
Speaker 3: Now.
1:14:03
Speaker 2: In addition to that, of course that what they want
1:14:05
Speaker 2: is Vanessa was talking about normalization. They want to normalize
1:14:09
Speaker 2: relations with the whole of West Asia and North Africa,
1:14:13
Speaker 2: which means that they want to be able to operate
1:14:15
Speaker 2: these countries effectively as client states. Now that as a
1:14:20
Speaker 2: plan is an imperialist plan, it's not an imperious plan,
1:14:23
Speaker 2: which is the same as the interest of US imperialism.
1:14:26
Speaker 2: And this is where I think that yes, of course
1:14:28
Speaker 2: they're entwined, but there are overlapping ways in which they
1:14:31
Speaker 2: operate and where they have shared interests, and there are
1:14:34
Speaker 2: other ways where they have divergent interests, and that I
1:14:36
Speaker 2: think is becoming increasingly apparent, and it will become increased
1:14:39
Speaker 2: increasingly apparent as the US has to decide what to
1:14:43
Speaker 2: do about its relationship with Israel. I think they will
1:14:47
Speaker 2: have to decide whether they're going to cut Israel loose,
1:14:50
Speaker 2: and Israel will want at that stage, whether it collapses
1:14:53
Speaker 2: or not, to go on to to create this greater
1:14:56
Speaker 2: Israel project. I mean, it's an imperialist power in itself
1:14:59
Speaker 2: and it's imperious part. So I would say that, yes,
1:15:02
Speaker 2: of course they're in Twain, but all of their interests
1:15:05
Speaker 2: do not coincid.
1:15:06
Speaker 1: It another complex web, it would seem. Okay, Look, that's
1:15:11
Speaker 1: been a fantastic and fascinating and enlightening conversation, David, thank
1:15:17
Speaker 1: you so much for taking the time. Also to Vanessa,
1:15:19
Speaker 1: who unfortunately has dropped off the call. Thank you very much, David.
1:15:24
Speaker 2: It's a pleasure, Thank you very much.
1:15:26
Speaker 1: And stuff. So I've been Ben Rubin, you've been watching
1:15:30
Speaker 1: UK column. Thank you for watching