Latest / How To Protect The Ocean / Everyone in the Tent: How Ocean Treaties Actually Get Made

Transcript

Everyone in the Tent: How Ocean Treaties Actually Get Made · How To Protect The Ocean

0:01
Tuna conservation would be nowhere without the right tools to make sure that
0:07
we are fishing them sustainably.
0:09
today on the podcast, we have Holly Koehler,
0:12
who is a policy expert For the International Seafood Sustainability Foundation,
0:16
ISSF, she is here to talk about how policy plays a critical role in.
0:24
creating protections for not only Tuna but other fish as well.
0:28
She has been involved in policy for quite some time,
0:31
and she's gonna tell us a little bit about the history of how she got into policy,
0:35
how she had like a science degree and got into this,
0:37
and then how it kind of like some of the stories of all this policy work that she's
0:42
been able to do. It's pretty exciting.
0:44
Like I have to admit, I'm not a I'm not a policy like crazy guy,
0:47
like I don't just love it.
0:49
but it's kind of cool, like it's really interesting all the stories that she has.
0:53
She's a great speaker. It was great to have her on.
0:55
I could have talked to her for a number of hours on it,
0:58
and I can't wait to have her back on one day to be able to talk more about
1:01
her work because she's just been involved in so much,
1:04
and you'll hear it in the interview.
1:05
And that's what we're gonna be talking about on this episode of the
1:07
How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
1:09
This is the podcast where you find out all about ocean news,
1:11
whether it's tuna or fisheries or marine mammal conservation or anything science and
1:16
ocean conservation related, this is where you are going to find out what
1:19
is up and what is the mainstream and what you need to know Monday
1:22
to Friday every week. usually an interview on the Friday and then solo episodes
1:27
on the Monday to Thursday to prepare you for that interview.
1:30
~ but yeah if you like this kind of stuff,
1:32
why don't you just hit subscribe or follow whatever podcast app you're listening
1:36
to this on and you don't miss the next episode.
1:38
So that'll be that'll be great for me because it helps me,
1:41
you know,
1:41
get more exposed to other people ~ who might not get it,
1:44
whether it be your contacts or anything.
1:46
it's the podcast algorithm. It's complicated,
1:48
but it allows me to get in front of more people,
1:51
the more people that subscribe or that follow,
1:53
whichever one you're on, whatever podcast app you have.
1:56
I think most of them are follows now.
1:57
I think I don't think they're subscribes anymore,
1:59
but most of them are follows. So follow if you like and we'll get right into it.
2:02
So Holly ~ came to us through the International Seafood Sustainability Foundation.
2:07
they're always great. I always love the information.
2:09
They've done so much work tuna,
2:11
especially, but it's not just like the in the field stuff.
2:15
It's not just with fishers, it's with the entire supply chain.
2:18
they've advanced tuna conservation and fisheries conservation and management so far,
2:24
just by working with the entire supply chain.
2:27
So not just fishers, as we like to blame all these fishers.
2:30
They're working with fishers. Fishers are working with them.
2:32
They're working with processors and fishhmongers and supermarkets
2:35
and all these other places that sell tuna so that they can look at every part
2:40
of the process and make sure that it's done properly so that
2:43
we have sustainable tuna fisheries all over the world.
2:47
And we had Susan Jackson on earlier this year.
2:49
She talked about how, you know,
2:51
the the last year we saw such great numbers in terms of like 99%.
2:56
of the tuna that were caught were from sustainable fisheries last year.
2:59
Today we're gonna be talking about policy with Holly.
3:01
Holly is the policy expert for tuna.
3:04
She's been in policy as I mentioned before so long and she talks about
3:08
her history with the ISSF and and policy and how that has helped bring us forward.
3:14
especially with the way that ISSF works with the entire supply chain,
3:18
how it's helped in tuna conservation.
3:20
And I just thought it was wonderful to be able to have her on and to bring
3:23
you this information. Here's the interview with Holly Koehler talking about tuna
3:27
policy over the last few decades.
3:30
Enjoy the interview and I'll talk to you after.
3:33
Hey Holly, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
3:36
Are you ready to talk about the exciting topic of tuna policy?
3:43
Well,
3:43
I'm very excited. I'm very pleased to be here and looking forward to having
3:47
a fun conversation with you about tuna today.
3:50
Absolutely. I'm looking forward to this because I feel like we have
3:54
hit the jackpot in terms of tuna.
3:56
I feel Holly, you're like the OG of tuna and management and I think we're
4:03
in very good company here to really get a sense of you know how tuna
4:08
was managed previously and how tuna is managed now and how that policy
4:12
has changed and just really going into the stories around policy in general
4:18
for tuna and I think
4:19
it's kind of a stuff things a topic that we don't talk about often enough,
4:24
but it's such an important part of conservation that I think today's
4:27
Hm.
4:28
gonna be a lot of fun to talk about that.
4:30
But before we get into all of that,
4:31
Holly, why don't you just let the audience know who you are and what you do?
4:36
Okay, yeah, well let's see. I've been working in tuna for almost thirty years.
4:42
~ I started as a ~
4:46
intern in Washington DC first at an NGO and then with the State Department.
4:52
And then I went on to work at the State Department in their Office
4:56
of Marine Conservation doing international negotiations for tuna management
5:01
and some other species until 2012 and then
5:06
I moved on to ~ ISSF and back into the NGO world.
5:13
So I started working with an NGO ~
5:16
that's ISSF ~ works with ~
5:21
companies and you know, the supply chain and so we also work across
5:25
all of the different spheres, whether it's vessels,
5:28
flag states, other NGOs or ~ processing companies.
5:33
And I started working for them in t 2014 doing policy and outreach.
5:39
So I kind of started the NGO world,
5:43
went into the government world for a while and now I'm back out into the NGO world.
5:46
But the common thread has always been international fisheries management and
5:51
primarily focusing on tuna.
5:53
Now what first drew you to international fisheries policy?
5:57
Because I'm sure I can ask you this and you'll probably say it's a surprise,
6:01
but like that's not when we think of getting into science and marine
6:05
and ocean science, we don't think about policy when we're younger,
6:08
you know, like doing our courses and everything like that.
6:11
What first drew you into international fisheries policy?
6:16
Well it was really kind of serendipitous.
6:18
I mean I'm in from the Midwest.
6:20
I grew up in Michigan and I went to school in Ohio and then Indiana and then
6:26
in my graduate program I was doing ~ public policy and one of the things
6:32
I could do was either write another paper or do an internship and so
6:36
I ended up deciding to do the internship route and ~ I
6:40
was doing comparative international policy as a coursework and
6:47
That was I thought that was very interesting because
6:50
you know, this not something that,
6:51
you know, most people don't have a lot of experience with how intern you know,
6:55
when you think about the international realm,
6:58
especially a farm girl from Michigan,
7:00
I didn't have any experience in that and I didn't even really know what does that
7:04
mean. And so I found that that coursework really interesting,
7:07
but I really wanted to understand more practically how did it how does it happen?
7:12
What do you do? What does that mean?
7:14
~ how is it accomplished? And so I ended up going to Washington DC and
7:18
I worked with a NGO
7:20
at
7:20
that was
7:21
called the Center for Marine Conservation at the time,
7:23
but now it's called the Ocean Foundation.
7:25
And in that
7:29
internship that summer I worked on sea turtles and sea turtles was my first sort
7:35
of understanding of resources that are shared.
7:38
So
7:38
Mm.
7:39
they don't read maps, they don't respect boundaries,
7:41
they move around and they migrate long distances and as a result they run into
7:47
a lot of different types of gear.
7:50
They run into a lot of different vessels that are flagged to different countries.
7:54
And so how do you manage them?
7:55
How do you protect them? And you do that through international cooperation.
7:59
And through that internship I met people at the State Department and it sort
8:03
of just kind of canniballed from there.
8:04
So you know, it started in coursework but was really
8:10
you know, really built on and really ~ activated through having some practical
8:15
experience and really trying to understand how do you in practice accomplish these
8:21
things. And it's not so simple as just you know saying we should do X
8:26
or we should do Y. You have to work with other
8:28
countries and you have to collaborate and you have to compromise to ensure
8:34
or do your best to conserve these resources that are moving throughout
8:40
our world's oceans.
8:41
Yeah, for
8:42
sure. And I think it's really important that you kind of brought that
8:45
up because like when people think about ocean conservation,
8:47
they often think of like scientists or fishers or even like advocates,
8:50
people speaking out on certain policies that have been put in place
8:53
by governments or maybe outdated or maybe new ones that they don't agree with
8:57
and so forth. They probably don't picture international negotiations,
9:01
you know. So like why are these like those meetings so important?
9:08
Okay. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.
9:10
I mean, you know, there's a lot of you know when people think of
9:16
it fisheries or marine science,
9:18
they you know, think of big vessels and people in scuba gear and things like that
9:22
and ~ cool pictures of sharks and whales,
9:26
~ all which all is great, but ~ if you're these international negotiations,
9:30
these meetings that are taking place and
9:34
oftentimes very boring hotel ballrooms around the world are
9:38
Yeah.
9:39
~ you know or windowless rooms in the UN in New York where I spend a lot
9:43
of time or in the FAO ~ in Rome.
9:46
~ is that's where the agreements happen.
9:51
I mean that's where the countries get together.
9:54
The countries that have decided that they want to work together,
10:00
~ and in cases of ~
10:04
the different regional fisheries management organizations,
10:07
as I know we'll talk about a bit more later,
10:09
or legally bound themselves to cooperate,
10:12
~
10:13
that's where they get together and they sit down and they work out how
10:17
do we do this? And they agree that they will do it.
10:21
~ you know, whether that means they agree to stop fishing at a certain time
10:26
or they agree to use a certain type of gear that is less damaging
10:30
or catches less bycatch species like sea turtles or sharks.
10:34
that's where the rubber hits the road for lack of a better term.
10:39
~ and without that
10:42
all the individual countries would be operating in their own.
10:44
And so it's without that cooperation,
10:47
without that getting together and sitting across the table from
10:50
one another and really hashing it out.
10:53
we wouldn't be able to accomplish what we are accomplishing internationally
10:57
for highly migratory species, for those species that roam around and don't read maps
11:04
and occur across thousands and thousands of miles in many different jurisdictions.
11:11
Now, you know, you've probably accrued a number of different skill sets throughout
11:16
your time and doing different negotiations,
11:20
different countries using potentially different tactics to ~ you know,
11:24
get the best agreement for fisheries,
11:27
for the ocean, for conservation,
11:29
and of course for the State Department and so forth.
11:31
What would you say for in this audience there's a lot of early career
11:36
scientists and potential, you know,
11:38
international negotiators and fishery policy analysts in the future.
11:42
What would you say is it was like the biggest skill that you use pretty much
11:47
all the time that you acquired over that time that people could work on now?
11:51
I think it's it would be listening.
11:53
~
11:54
Yeah.
11:55
you know, I mean and I you know,
11:57
they always you know, you read these like books on,
12:00
you know, getting to yes or getting past no and all this sort of stuff
12:03
and it's like ~ you know, your EQ or your emotional intelligence.
12:07
~ I think being able to listen to what they're what they
12:14
mean behind what they say. Right?
12:15
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
12:18
So,
12:19
you know, one of the things that we would say was where you stand depends
12:24
on where you sit. So it's like you know you have like you have some countries
12:31
will they'll start out saying X but if you've been around enough
12:37
and you pay attention enough and you listen to the other word choice,
12:40
you know that
12:42
what they might really mean behind that X is they're signaling their flexibility
12:48
or they're offering you something or they're tying it to something else.
12:55
And so you have to listen and pay attention to those connections and
12:59
be willing to also sometimes you have to pick your moment also
13:06
when you say like okay
13:09
I'm willing, you know, who's gonna blink first?
13:11
I'm like, okay, well, what if we offered this or what if I think I'm hearing this
13:14
of in what you're saying? And ~ I also chaired a lot of negotiations in
13:19
my time and as a chair, that's a huge skill to have is really hearing
13:25
the interests behind the words and knowing when you
13:30
can offer us a compromise or a solution and when
13:35
how that's gonna land and is it the right moment to do so and when to kind
13:41
of press the room on something and when to hold back and wait.
13:45
And a lot of that is learned through experience.
13:50
It's not necessarily, I mean I'm sure there are you know classes and things that
13:53
can teach people that, but I was very fortunate in my career ~ to work with some
14:00
really incredibly gifted and ~ experienced negotiators at the State Department.
14:06
I was able to sort of learn at their knee for many years ~ before I was
14:11
the one in the front row. And so I was able to pick up a lot on
14:16
how they were successful and how they accomplished what we needed to
14:20
do and what they were hearing versus what I was hearing and filing that away
14:27
for the future.
14:29
Awesome. One of the things that I think is also a great skill to have
14:33
is to hear acronyms and really understand what they
14:38
are in
14:38
Ha ha.
14:39
a lot of places. And, you know,
14:41
with TUNA and and TUNA Fisheries policies and looking at that,
14:44
there are quite a number of acronyms that you and I use all
14:47
Hm.
14:47
the time. And sometimes like, you know,
14:49
when I do this podcast, I'll say,
14:50
you know, say RFMO.
14:52
Right. Like that's a
14:53
Mm-hmm.
14:53
common acronym that a lot of people in our in the industry understand.
14:57
But, you know, if I'm speaking to a general audience who are not familiar with that,
15:01
it can get a little complicated.
15:03
So I just have to ask, since we're getting into tuna policy,
15:06
~ can you like when we hear, you know,
15:08
things like RFMO ~ all the time,
15:11
like what exactly is an RFMO and why should anyone outside
15:14
the seafood industry actually care about this?
15:17
'Cause when I mention it to family and friends,
15:19
they're just like, I don't even know
15:21
what that is and like how is that important?
15:21
Yeah. Yeah
15:23
You know what I mean?
15:24
sure. Absolutely. No, and it happens to me too.
15:27
Ha ha ha.
15:28
still. So an RFMO a regional fisheries management organization.
15:34
So it is and then ~ the reason for those to exist in the world
15:44
is because of a framework treaty that was negotiated and it was there's UNCLOS
15:51
and then part of sorry UN Convention on the Law of the Sea.
15:53
Yeah.
15:53
And
15:54
then as a part of that there was an implementing agreement that implemented certain
15:59
provisions of that treaty that dealt with highly margatory species
16:03
and straddling stocks. So again those are the stocks this fish and stuff that swim
16:08
with fish ~ that either exist throughout many jurisdictions
16:14
It's highly
16:14
Mm-hmm.
16:15
migratory or straddling,
16:18
which are like
16:20
you know, Cod and some other ones which were on either side of
16:24
one or two boundaries, the high seas and then say like Iceland or,
16:28
you know, the EU or Canada. ~ so,
16:32
you know, UN Conventional Of the Sea,
16:34
you pulled out of that the management of those kinds of fisheries.
16:40
And then there was a new treaty that was adopted called the
16:44
UN Fish Stocks Agreement. And that agreement,
16:49
~
16:51
Provided the normative framework for cooperation internationally.
16:57
And the duties of flag states and the duties in these international
17:01
or you know international organizations.
17:03
So how do you give effect to that cooperation internationally?
17:06
What does one do? And that give rise to this idea of these organizations,
17:11
these regional fisheries organizations that would be treaty-based.
17:14
And so what that means is that countries that become party to them,
17:19
like ICAT in the Atlantic or the Western and Central Pacific Fisheries Commission
17:24
in the Western and Central Pacific.
17:27
they have legally bound themselves to the provisions of that treaty
17:32
and those treaties lay out you know a whole set of things ~
17:37
how they're structured you know what their geographic scope
17:43
is ~ what they cover? ~ what kind of decisions they can make?
17:48
how they're gonna arrange themselves?
17:50
are they gonna have subcommittees?
17:51
are they gonna have a science committee?
17:53
are they gonna have an in-house science committee?
17:54
how are they going to monitor the effectiveness
17:57
Of the measures they adopt? How are they going to slice up the pie?
18:02
They have allocation structures.
18:03
~ and who can join? They have provisions on who can join,
18:07
and if you want to join, how you have to go about it.
18:09
And there's a whole many other things.
18:12
And those treaties ~ cover,
18:17
nearly all of our oceans when it comes for tuna anyway.
18:21
And then there's a whole bunch of other ones that cover non-tuna species.
18:24
And there's like one small there's one little small area in the South west Atlantic
18:31
that isn't covered by an RFMO.
18:32
But almost all the entirety of the ocean is covered by these organizations.
18:36
~ even in the Southern Ocean you have ~ one that covers the krill fisheries
18:41
and other types of fisheries in the far southern ocean,
18:44
you have one in the Arctic Ocean,
18:46
and then you have
18:47
these others that some of them kind of overlap a little bit but they cover different
18:52
species so they don't have that's not a problem.
18:54
~ and, you know, all the major countries that either border these
19:01
RFMOs ~ or are fishing there from far away.
19:06
so you have distant water fishing nations,
19:09
so say like
19:10
Japan
19:11
fishing over in the Atlantic. That's way far away from their coastline,
19:15
but they're considered
19:15
Mm.
19:16
a distant water fishing nation.
19:19
And whereas the countries like the Pacific Island countries that are coastal states,
19:24
they're coastal states and they border these RFMOs.
19:27
They are all of the ones everyone who has an interest in that fishery
19:32
is encouraged to become party to it.
19:35
And then once they're party to it,
19:37
that's when we have these international meetings,
19:40
that's when these decisions are made on how to manage the resource and manage the,
19:46
you know, bycatch species or other things that are
19:49
found in that region.
19:51
Interesting.
19:51
Yeah, that's really interesting.
19:53
And it's such a structured area and it covers so much area that it's really nice
19:58
and a lot of different nations like so there could be like multiple countries
20:01
who are part of one RFMO.
20:04
Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. Yeah, exactly.
20:07
So some of the RFMOs have like forty five countries that are party to it.
20:12
And yeah. And so some and some have and some,
20:16
like in the Indian Ocean,
20:19
the number of developing countries in that that are party to that
20:23
far exceeds the number of developed countries.
20:25
And so
20:25
Interesting.
20:26
that also creates other aspects of,
20:29
you know, conditions in how those resources is managed and the need
20:33
for capacity building and the need to help support countries who may
20:37
not have the same capacity to collect data or monitor their fleets in the same way.
20:41
And so they need some and so there's elements of of support that come that flow
20:46
through these bodies as well.
20:48
So like the overall mission of each of of all the RFMOs is to protect fisheries
20:53
and to make sure that it's it's managed properly.
20:55
But even within each RFMO, there's unique aspects
21:00
to the organization that are catered more geographically and like you said,
21:06
like the looking at developed versus developing ~ countries and so forth
21:11
and what species overlap with what.
21:12
So who like if there's two RFMOs,
21:14
there are different species that are managed by
21:17
the RFMO and so just to make sure that everybody is clear
21:20
on the goals,
21:21
Mm-hmm.
21:21
but it could be unique at times depending on the geographic region
21:24
and what's unique in that area,
21:26
correct?
21:27
Yeah, yeah. I mean I think ~ you know,
21:30
they all have their own culture and the I mean
21:31
Yeah.
21:32
and their own, you know, and that and how they operate and when they have their
21:37
meetings and but the overall goals are the same in the sense that at least from
21:42
a tuna standpoint it's to conserve and manage these highly migratory species
21:47
and they have ~ you know sort of different objectives sometimes like sometimes it's
21:52
like you know maintaining the populations between maximum sustainable yield
21:57
and sometimes they're not as quite as that specific.
21:59
Some of the older ~
22:02
RFMO treaties have been updated over time,
22:05
so like in the Eastern Pacific and Atlantic,
22:07
when they were first negotiated the treaties were very lean and they didn't cover
22:14
some of the more modern provisions like dealing with what we call non-target
22:18
and associated species. So you know your sea turtles,
22:21
your seabirds, they were really just focused on managing the fish.
22:25
But as
22:25
Right.
22:25
time went on, it became clear that that wasn't enough,
22:29
that it really had to manage the ecosystem.
22:31
So they
22:31
Mm.
22:32
updated
22:32
their treaties to include provisions that gave them that mandate.
22:39
and some of the RFMOs continue to refine themselves over time.
22:42
You know, they look at their provisions and,
22:45
you know, look at ways to improve their effectiveness.
22:50
And a lot of RFMOs have gone through sort of performance reviews where they look
22:54
at themselves and say, Okay, well these are some things or have outside independent
22:58
people look at them and say, Okay,
22:59
we could do better in these different areas.
23:00
~ But you're right, I mean the main goal of all of them,
23:05
whether ~ any of these are
23:07
whether they're tunas or non-tunas is international cooperation
23:12
to ensure the sustainability of the fisheries under their jurisdiction
23:17
and also the ecosystem in most cases.
23:20
So the things that are caught up in those fisheries.
23:24
Well see, I
23:25
think that's a really important point because I think a lot of times
23:27
and may have bit used to been this way,
23:30
where people assume that fisheries management is all about catch limits
23:33
and like so quotas and things like that.
23:36
We a lot of times we hear, you know,
23:38
in the public, these are the quotas and these are the catch limits,
23:40
and you can't catch more than this because this makes sense based on
23:43
all this other data and this other science.
23:45
But there's a broader
23:48
goal too, as you kind of mentioned,
23:50
it's not just about catch limits for one species or multiple species,
23:53
it's the broader ecosystem. Why do you think that gets ~ confusing
23:59
to people and the messaging out to I'm gonna say general citizens,
24:04
like they think that
24:04
Mm.
24:05
catch limits are one of the only ways.
24:07
Like why do you think that there's a bit of a confusion in that aspect?
24:11
Or is it just because that's what used to be talked about and it's changed since
24:14
then?
24:16
I think it's probably in part just because there's just not as much knowledge about
24:22
how the complexity of managing the multi-species fisheries,
24:26
like particularly again tuna, you rarely catch just one kind
24:31
of tuna depending unless you're very you know,
24:34
in very specific places and using a very specific type of gear.
24:38
~ and I also think that like a lot of your
24:41
your average person, you know,
24:42
is probably more familiar with things like their rod and reel and,
24:45
you know, what goes on in recreational fisheries or something that's local,
24:46
True. Right.
24:48
right? You get a license and I can have a bag limit and you know,
24:52
I gotta be this long, you know,
24:54
that kind of thing. ~ and so I don't think there's anything really wrong with that.
24:58
You know,
25:02
that's what the great thing about like podcasts like this are,
25:04
like getting out that information,
25:06
that the complexity and the diversity of the tools and also
25:10
the applicability of these organizations,
25:13
they're not just about
25:15
how much you can catch. They're also about
25:18
what is the impact of the catching on other things and can we mitigate
25:24
those negative impacts, you know,
25:27
on whether it's seabirds or, you know,
25:29
some other
25:30
part of the ecosystem. One of the other things I worked on in the State Department
25:33
~ was
25:34
what we called high seas discrete stocks.
25:36
So bottom fishing, bottom trawling type of fishing but very damaging
25:42
to certain things. And one of the
25:45
things I worked on at the UN when I was chairing the fisheries
25:48
~ negotiations there was
25:50
kind of a landmark
25:51
agreement on how to mitigate the impacts
25:57
of bottom fishing or bottom trawling on vulnerable seabeds.
26:02
And because what was being damaged there,
26:06
the fisheries were fine, but it what was being damaged was the seafloor
26:10
or the corals. And some of these corals
26:12
are older than the pyramids. I mean that's how long they live and
26:17
how slow they grow.
26:20
So this idea that you can't just smash through this stuff.
26:24
You have to be careful. You have to have rules.
26:27
And so that was a you know that was a step function change
26:30
in international management of that particular type of seamount fishery.
26:35
~
26:37
And we're seeing that evolution in these tuna RFMOs as well.
26:40
I mean, as I said, there were some treaties that just really focused just
26:44
on the fish. That was all they did for years.
26:46
And now there's a whether it's through evolved
26:51
recognition of the importance of the ecosystem,
26:53
or whether it's public pressure,
26:55
whether it's all of these things,
26:56
market pressure, there's a realization,
27:00
understanding and now action to do more to protect these other species that are
27:06
associated with these fisheries.
27:10
Now, ~ one thing in my mind that I will never forget,
27:14
okay, that I will always picture and I'll always have it in my head,
27:17
~ and it has to do with policy,
27:19
~ was when the high seas treaty was finally agreed upon.
27:24
And there's a video online and it made the news and unfortunately
27:30
I forget the woman's name, but she was chair of the committee.
27:35
She
27:35
put her gavel down in the final sort of agreement that everybody was
27:41
you know agreed upon. They had a number of countries that agreed to it.
27:44
And tears kind of flowed down,
27:46
you know, as like it was a very emotional time for many of the people,
27:50
the negotiators from various countries.
27:53
And it was so emotional as you know,
27:57
because it took so long to put together.
28:00
And this was a huge treaty. It will eventually change the game in terms of
28:05
a lot of different things around the ocean.
28:07
And it kind of tells us that, you know,
28:11
international negotiations is can be frustrating and a slow process.
28:15
Like a slow, frustrating process as shown in in that video,
28:20
where to achieve something as huge as that is monumental in the future.
28:26
And to be a part of something like that is absolutely phenomenal.
28:30
And there have been a lot of big policies over that time,
28:32
whether they're national or international.
28:35
The Magnuson Stevenses Act in the US has been huge,
28:38
Marine Mammal Protection Act in the States,
28:40
the Fisheries Act in Canada, where I'm from,
28:43
has been monumental. ~ and I just want to know,
28:46
like, you know, it can be but when progress happens,
28:50
you know, what does that actually look like in this world?
28:54
Like when a policy comes into place,
28:56
and even though like the high seas is probably early on in telling
29:00
how that's going to be successful or even non-successful in the future.
29:04
But when you've been part of a negotiation that has been slow and frustrating,
29:08
what does progress look like, you know,
29:11
after it's been agreed upon? Like how do we judge that?
29:14
How do we evaluate that? Especially in the early years.
29:17
Mm.
29:19
let's see, that's an interesting question.
29:21
Like I mean
29:22
'Cause I've been involved in both the adoption of policy instruments like a measure,
29:27
~ you
29:28
Mm-hmm.
29:28
know, and I've also been involved in the adoption of treaties,
29:34
~ like the and so when you actually like what you described for
29:39
the high seas biodiversity treaty,
29:41
I've been involved in, you know,
29:42
where you've spent years and years working on little bits of text and having
29:48
it all knit
29:49
Yeah.
29:49
together in the end and have
29:53
everyone that's been involved in that sitting around the room agree and
29:58
no one says no or I decide I don't want to do it anymore.
30:02
~ so I mean I think what success looks like ~ in both
30:08
of the theme in both of those two experiences that I've had is where,
30:13
It can be very difficult and slow and you have to make compromises,
30:16
but the goal is to get something that is strong on the one hand,
30:23
and
30:24
everyone who really needs to be inside the tent is inside the tent.
30:27
They
30:27
Mm.
30:28
agree to it and will implement it and ratify it in case of a treaty
30:32
or ~ implement the measure for conserving,
30:37
you know, sharks or sea turtles or whatever it is.
30:42
And there are some delicate balances there.
30:45
Like you don't wanna
30:47
push so hard that everyone's in the tent that you end up with something that doesn't
30:50
really accomplish what you need to accomplish.
30:52
And it's finding that and that's where those really delicate negotiations come down.
30:57
I mean in some of the ones there were some things that I was involved in with
31:01
~ this other treaty that I it was for for non-tuna's ~
31:07
the South Pacific RFMO ~ where we had a set of countries that ~
31:13
had very different interests and also had
31:17
there was ~ a lot of kind of baggage to put it back a letter of
31:23
a better word behind some of the positions that these countries were taking.
31:27
So finding the trade-offs seems like getting something that would work
31:30
for one set of countries but then maintain some of the stronger positions that
31:34
you needed in order for the entirety of the treaty to be a strong one
31:39
in a certain couple of particular areas.
31:41
And it takes time. You can't just
31:46
arrived there overnight. It took years of building relationships
31:50
and sitting in rooms and playing around with forms of words and sometimes just
31:55
the order of paragraphs just enough to
31:57
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
31:59
you know, I mean, it seems crazy to people that haven't been in it,
32:04
but it can be it can be that ~ way.
32:07
and so that I think when, you know,
32:09
kind of what success looks like to me is like
32:12
if you're able to find that sweet spot where you whether it's a measure
32:18
or whether it's an entire new instrument where you accomplish something that's
32:24
meets most of the objectives of being strong and effective and moving forward
32:30
a little bit more in terms of how to ensure you know science is implemented,
32:36
the fisheries are well-monitored and there are consequences
32:41
for breaking the rules, which are sort of the three pillars of setting
32:45
up these kinds of measures, and you get everybody in the tent.
32:48
Then I think
32:49
Yeah. Then just
32:50
you could be pretty pretty good feel pretty good about that as a success.
32:55
I
32:55
think that's a good measure. I think there's a lot that goes into it
32:57
and it's not obviously not as easy as it sounds to make that's
33:00
why you're mentioning all these things and especially making sure everybody's
33:03
in the same tent. That I think that's a really good point.
33:07
Now one of ISF's recurring messages is that governance matters just as much
33:13
as the fisheries practices. And I think ~ some people will ignore
33:17
the governance as they don't know a lot about the governance.
33:20
So why like what does ISSF mean by that that
33:24
governments is just as important as the fishing practices.
33:27
Well what ISSF means or what I would mean say I that we mean ~ is that
33:32
you know governance is essentially the structure that we all you know that
33:38
you operate under under. It's like you know,
33:41
I mean I have a background in anthropology and it's like governance
33:45
is like what civilization is based on,
33:48
right?
33:48
Right.
33:49
I mean if you don't have rules and laws and
33:53
you know, as a set of
33:55
principles that we all agreed that we're gonna live by and if something goes wrong
33:59
you have a place
33:59
Mm-hmm.
34:00
to go and you have someone who will help you redress that issue or
34:04
Mm-hmm.
34:04
you have a process that you can ~ rely on that this is something this
34:10
is how things will unfold.
34:12
That what governance is. And if you don't have that,
34:16
then you know, it kind of goes back to what I was saying before about
34:19
why we need RFMOs, because otherwise it's just sort of a free-for-all.
34:22
Like
34:22
Yeah. Yeah.
34:23
you could how would you manage a fishing practice?
34:27
Every different country would manage it individually,
34:30
but those vessels are not just staying in that country,
34:33
they're going out and
34:34
beyond their country or they're going and they're fishing in someone else's country
34:39
zone because they're allowed to or maybe they shouldn't be allowed to ~
34:43
or no one know they were there.
34:45
So it's like you need that governance.
34:48
You need to have rules,
34:51
you need to have certainty, you need to
34:52
Mm-hmm.
34:52
have a process, you need to have a way of saying okay this is how
34:57
we will develop our policy. This is how we will get together and talk about
35:01
our policy. This is how we will adopt the policy and this is how
35:04
we will know that the policy is working.
35:07
You need to have that structure in order to have that an effective means
35:13
by which to manage a fishery and the fishing practices themselves.
35:18
Yeah, I completely agree. Having that almost that central area where the
35:24
way I think of it too, it's like when one area does really well at something,
35:28
they can share it with others.
35:30
It gets transposed because everything's connected,
35:32
which is nice and it's not just being independently run.
35:35
And I think that's really great.
35:36
And plus I feel like a lot of those RFMOs,
35:38
if a country has a conflict in that fishery,
35:41
they can come together
35:44
and help negotiate those conflicts,
35:47
right? And help get over those conflicts,
35:48
which I think I really like. And I think,
35:51
you know,
35:51
Yeah.
35:52
there's a lot of stuff when we talk about fishers,
35:54
'cause a lot of people will focus on the actual fishing practices.
35:57
And, you know,
35:57
Mm-hmm.
35:58
there's all these different gears that come out.
36:00
We've heard obviously not for tuna,
36:02
but like of trawling and the damage that can done.
36:05
And then with tuna like long lining and then pull and
36:09
~ fishing and then FADs and like fish aggregation
36:11
Mm-hmm.
36:12
devices and so forth. So like people often focus on the gear being used
36:16
and how that needs to
36:17
Mm-hmm.
36:18
change. But that's not just the only thing that needs to happen.
36:21
So like why isn't gear alone, like changing gear alone ~ help why doesn't
36:27
it just help improve sustainability?
36:29
Like why do we need more than just changing gear?
36:31
Well, I mean, I guess so yeah,
36:34
so ~ because you can change your gear but you might still catch
36:41
so I guess it depends on what you're trying to accomplish,
36:43
right? Like
36:43
Right.
36:44
if gear changes are to address
36:47
An issue with that gear, like it's lost or it entangles things or
36:52
it catches things it shouldn't catch,
36:54
or ~ you know, something of along those lines,
36:59
then those are kind of gear modifications address one set of problems or issues.
37:04
And then you have other like sets of issues.
37:07
If you want to control how much fish is being removed from the ocean,
37:10
then there are other tools in the toolbox like management.
37:15
areas or closures or ~ limits on the use of certain gear because
37:22
that gear
37:23
can result in large catches all at once.
37:26
And so, you know, there really are a suite of things that are necessary
37:32
to ensure comprehensive management,
37:34
addressing potential negative impacts to the ecosystem or to specific species
37:39
or marine pollution. And then the fisheries management itself,
37:43
controlling the actual removals
37:47
~ to maintain a healthy stock.
37:52
And so you need multiple pieces of management tools to accomplish that.
37:57
And there isn't really a one size fits all,
37:59
and there's not really a silver bullet in doing that.
38:01
And that's why you see different RFMOs,
38:03
different regions using different mixes of management tools.
38:08
Like in Eastern Pacific, for example,
38:10
they have a full closure for a certain period of time.
38:13
And that's to reduce the amount of fish that's being taken out of the ocean
38:17
to keep it within sustainable science-based limits.
38:20
But in the Western Pacific,
38:22
they have limits on the use of fats certain prime times of the year.
38:26
And so they don't have a full closure.
38:28
~ So there's just different tools based on the regions
38:32
and the objectives that they're trying to accomplish.
38:37
Interesting. Now, one thing I fell in love with,
38:41
one of the reasons why I fell in love with the ISSF is the fact that they focus
38:44
a lot on ~ transparency and accountability,
38:48
which I think
38:48
Mm-hmm.
38:49
in
38:49
any kind of fishery, especially dealing with tuna,
38:51
it's such an important aspect,
38:52
right? We need to know what goes behind all the science,
38:55
what goes behind all the policy and everything like that.
38:57
For ISSF, like what does that actually look like focusing
39:00
on transparency and accountability?
39:02
Like, what does it look like in practice?
39:04
Well, we have a lot of things,
39:06
tools that we have put in place and have created to support transparency
39:13
and accountability. And the transparency and accountability at their basic,
39:16
you know, essence are you know being open about what you're doing,
39:21
what you've committed to, what you said you're going to do,
39:25
that's transparency. And then accountability is showing that you've done it.
39:30
And if you haven't done it, what you're gonna do about it.
39:34
And ~ in that ISSF's world,
39:38
you know, we have a number of we have the participating companies that we work with,
39:43
the processing companies, they are audited annually.
39:46
We have public compliance reports of their implementation of
39:52
The ISSF conservation measures.
39:54
So you have transparency, public accountability,
39:57
all in one. You have they're audited and those reports are public.
40:01
We have similar for the vessels.
40:03
We have these two different lists,
40:05
and vessels that are on those lists are audited for each of
40:08
the different columns that you know,
40:11
different sustainability commitments,
40:12
and that their grades,
40:17
their scores are then public. And this these are tools for the public.
40:22
for market actors, for NGOs to see if you know these companies
40:29
or these vessels are implementing what they say they're going to be implementing.
40:33
It's the transparency and the accountability together in one package.
40:38
Yeah, that's really interesting.
40:39
Now, how does better data and transparency actually change like behavior
40:44
on the seas or even from a supply chain?
40:48
Well, the more you know about what a vessel is doing,
40:50
the more you can
40:52
see if it's implementing the kinds of things whether it's because it's required
40:57
under an RFMO or a national government,
41:00
or it's something that the supply chain is asking for.
41:03
I mean, there are a lot of retailers and,
41:06
you know, big companies like Costco and Walmart that have specific things that they
41:10
want to see
41:13
in their supply, they don't want to purchase and put on a shelf something that does
41:19
not meet a set of sustainability commitments that they have made as a company.
41:23
And so the more you have transparency and better data at that vessel level
41:28
or the harvesting level that flows through that supply chain,
41:32
the more that companies and others that have made those commitments
41:36
can actually say, Okay, I feel confident
41:39
that this is
41:41
I'm able to
41:42
stand behind this product because it does meet my
41:45
own sustainability commitments that I've made.
41:47
And more and more companies that are doing that those kinds of things that have
41:50
public ~ seafood sustainability commitments beyond tuna the you know shrimp
41:55
or whitefish or ~ other things.
41:58
~ and then but in order to ensure that they're accountable
42:04
to their own sustainability commitments,
42:06
they need data and they need better visibility into their supply chain.
42:11
Yeah, no doubt. I think that's really interesting.
42:14
Now with that said, ~ you've worked on tuna for quite some time.
42:17
What have you like where have you seen the biggest improvements
42:22
in tuna fisheries over your career so far?
42:25
Well, I guess I would say that a greater focus
42:32
on and actually action in addressing ecosystem impacts.
42:36
~ when I first started in the tumor world many,
42:40
many years ago, most of the conversations in not exclusively,
42:46
but most of the conversations in these international meetings are really focused on
42:51
you know, conservation of the tunas or how much tuna can we catch and
42:56
who can catch them and what gears can catch how many and ~ there wasn't
43:01
as much focus on the potential impact of certain gears like fads
43:07
or the impact of longline caught tuna on other species.
43:14
And as the science has evolved and shown that there are certain mitigation measures
43:20
that would really reduce the impact of certain gears on
43:24
these species, or that you could design the gears differently so they
43:29
are less likely to entangle things or less likely to pollute the environment.
43:37
And those have been adopted. And those have you know,
43:39
there actually has been progress in changing those measures or adopting
43:42
new measures to address that wider set of ~ impacts.
43:47
And I think the other thing that I've seen is
43:50
there's a lot more interest in what's going on in those meetings outside
43:54
of the typical original sort of actors.
43:56
When I was first starting on this,
43:58
it was always, you know, governments and industry and a few NGOs that were involved.
44:03
And you could probably name them all on one hand.
44:05
Yeah.
44:06
And
44:09
you know, it was always the same sort of you know,
44:12
we had this a lot of the same ~ individuals or ~ personalities and groups.
44:17
And ~ but now, you know,
44:20
there's a lot more interest in
44:25
what these international governance bodies are doing and there's
44:29
an interest from big companies like retailers like I mentioned.
44:33
There's interest by ~ other types of organizations like social and labor or
44:41
crew safety ~ organizations.
44:45
there's a lot more focus from the world,
44:49
the community on
44:51
these organizations and I think that's in some ways driving some of
44:56
the progress in some areas, like because it's no longer kind of an echo chamber
45:00
of just the same folks working
45:03
to adopt focus on the tuna and the catching of the tuna.
45:06
There's a lot more interest from the wider world to say,
45:11
I demand more. I want you to do more.
45:14
And I'm going to ask for it and I'm gonna watch you and see if you're doing it.
45:18
And I'm gonna turn up at these meetings or I'm gonna send you a letter
45:21
or I'm going to and the other thing I think was is the rise of some
45:24
of these certifications out there,
45:26
these eco-labels, ~
45:27
Yeah.
45:28
that have put pressure on these organizations to accomplish specific things.
45:32
because those eco-labels can be lost and those eco-labels
45:36
Mhm.
45:37
have value.
45:38
Yes. Yeah, we saw that ~ not too long ago,
45:41
I think it was a year ago, when some of those ecolabels pulled out
45:45
of the lobster fishery in Maine,
45:47
~ because
45:47
Mm-hmm.
45:49
of the entanglements
45:51
in their gear with ~ North Atlantic right whales ~ th which
45:54
are critically endangered. So yeah,
45:56
and it definitely, you know, the fisheries union were worried at that point,
46:00
being like, well, hold on
46:01
Yeah.
46:01
a second. You know, so it definitely makes action take place.
46:05
Whether people agree with it or not,
46:06
you know, it does it makes, you know,
46:08
people
46:08
Mm-hmm.
46:08
were looking for these ecolabels to make sure that they see these ecolabels
46:12
on their product so that they're
46:13
Yeah.
46:13
buying. So it's really interesting.
46:15
There's been a lot of improvements which is great to hear and great
46:18
to see that they're affecting
46:20
you know, how some of these organizations and companies function,
46:23
which
46:24
is great.
46:24
For sure.
46:25
Now looking ahead, like what are the biggest governance challenges that still need
46:29
attention today?
46:31
I think there are some gears
46:33
that have gotten a lot of attention and continue to get a lot of you know,
46:36
you talked about fads and certainly can always be in improvements there.
46:40
~
46:41
but I think there are other gears that have not gotten as much of attention.
46:44
I mean I think there's still ~ a much there's definitely in a need to improve
46:50
the monitoring equally across fleets.
46:54
For example, for the large scale Persane fleet,
46:57
which is type of ~ tuna fishing vessel,
46:59
there's a hundred percent observer coverage in three of the four RFMOs.
47:04
Those vessels have to have a person on board a hundred percent of the time.
47:10
monitoring, you know, they fill out forms and they keep track and their reports
47:14
are then used for compliance purposes and science purposes,
47:18
~ but then, you know, you have long line gears which have only
47:22
a five percent coverage. And that's something that a lot of us NGOs have been
47:26
working on over the last few years.
47:28
We have a ~ it's an area that really needs to be improved.
47:31
And there's some challenges with doing that.
47:34
I mean, these vessels are often out to sea for a long time.
47:36
And then and but with the rise of technology,
47:39
which is another one of those things which it's changed a lot in my lifetime
47:43
in this world, is the
47:47
increase in technology and the availability of technology to solve some
47:50
of these problems you like electronic monitoring putting cameras on boats instead
47:55
of humans you can use these cameras and ~ that's really gonna that's
48:00
can really move the needle forward in terms of increasing monitoring because
48:03
if you have more ~ equal monitoring you're gonna have better data from
48:08
all these other fleets you're gonna have better ~ confidence that measures
48:12
are being implemented
48:14
it'll improve not only the
48:16
science, but it'll also improve the implementation and effectiveness
48:20
of some of these bycatch measures that I've mentioned.
48:22
I think that that still continues to be a big challenge.
48:26
~ ensure getting some getting rising the tide,
48:29
you know, lifting all boats to have a similar kind of
48:31
For sure.
48:32
monitoring level. ~ And I think the other thing I think that is
48:37
a governance challenge, which isn't really I guess it's not really
48:40
a governance governance challenge.
48:41
I think more could be done to explain ~ the value in
48:49
those fisheries that are doing the right things,
48:52
right? Like that's something like transmitting that beyond the world of
48:56
us who live and breathe this stuff,
48:58
but getting it out into the public and getting it out into people understanding
49:01
the value of
49:05
sustainable fisheries. ~ you see a lot of ~ a growth of a lot of
49:09
labeling and different ways of marketing things and I think
49:12
I can tell you I you know like at a cocktail party,
49:15
you know, and someone will ask me,
49:16
Can I eat this? Is this fishery okay?
49:17
Yeah. Yeah. I've had that.
49:18
You know, can I have this?
49:21
You know, I saw an article or I saw,
49:23
you know, whatever about little kids living in Indonesia and they're peeling shrimp
49:29
and that's horrible and
49:30
I don't wanna be involved in that.
49:32
How would I know? How would I know that this shrimp is okay?
49:33
Right. Yeah.
49:35
~ and I think it's that kind of stuff.
49:37
People there is definitely an
49:39
increase in interest
49:41
it seems
49:41
Mm.
49:41
to me more than it was used to be when I first started,
49:44
for consumers wanting to know more about what it is and it's not just environment,
49:51
it's also people. It's like how are people being treated and is it fair,
49:52
Yeah. ~ for sure. Yeah.
49:54
wages, you know, all that sort of stuff.
49:57
And ~ I think getting those messages out more is another area that could
50:01
be improved on.
50:02
Yeah, I love that. Now, ~ there's a lot of stuff going on in the ocean right now.
50:07
And sometimes a lot of the times the news isn't that
50:10
great. but each
50:11
Mm.
50:12
and every one of us who l work within ocean conservation,
50:15
whether it be international fisheries policy,
50:17
whether it be me in communications,
50:19
we always find a little bit of optimism.
50:22
So like I'm gonna ask you, what gives you optimism about the future
50:26
of international fisheries policy?
50:28
Like something that you are an expert in.
50:31
Well, I mean, I think there's some of the things I've already mentioned.
50:34
if I look back even five years ago,
50:37
you know, five, six years ago,
50:39
none of these big treaty organizations that we've been talking about,
50:42
the RFMOs, had adopted restrictions on
50:46
fat FADs, fish aggregating devices that entangle.
50:50
they had these long tails of netting
50:52
Yeah.
50:53
that would hang belong them, you know,
50:54
fifty feet or something. And
50:56
Right.
50:56
they're all floating out there in the ocean.
50:58
And there was science that showed that this was actually a huge form
51:02
of mortality for certain types of sharks and other species.
51:06
now all of those organizations have all banned netting.
51:11
Hmm.
51:11
they no
51:11
longer can use those that netting.
51:13
they have to use canvas panels or they have to,
51:17
you know, secure things in certain ways.
51:19
So so you've gone in that relatively in the you know,
51:21
in the glacial pace that can be it can be of international negotiations.
51:26
That's a pretty big win to go from,
51:28
Huge. Yeah.
51:29
you know
51:30
Now, of course, you know, there can be arguments like are they doing it,
51:33
and are they being implemented,
51:34
Right. Of course.
51:34
you know, there's always going
51:35
to be that piece of it, of course.
51:37
But the fact that those were agreements were made by consensus
51:41
in these organizations, and all of them,
51:44
is a pretty big deal.
51:46
~ and so it gives you optimism that,
51:48
you know, when presented with science and data
51:53
and facts that this is bad,
51:56
that we this should not be allowed.
51:58
This is not something that should be this is not responsible.
52:01
Change can happen.
52:02
the other thing that fills me the optimism,
52:04
more optimism is that I mentioned that there's more eyeballs
52:09
on these organizations than their headb the past from a variety
52:12
of different parts of the supply chain.
52:15
There's, you know, the markets,
52:17
the retailers, those that are putting stuff on their shelves,
52:19
to the processors that are
52:21
buying the fish and putting it in cans and
52:23
to, you know, just the average person,
52:26
the public. I mean, there's a lot more articles and,
52:28
you know, documentaries and things out there really bringing people's attention
52:33
to the oceans and to some of the challenges.
52:36
And that's giving rise to new generations of people that are demanding more.
52:40
Whether it's more information or like I'm not gonna buy this unless you
52:45
can give me some confidence that it has not had an impact on a person that's
52:50
a negative or a sea turtle or whatever their thing is.
52:53
is. And I think that the more global our world is,
53:00
the more interconnected we all are,
53:02
that is that and that through technology,
53:04
that's really it blows apart these silos and some of these insular sort
53:11
of smoke-filled rooms where things are being decided without any of that,
53:15
no one really knowing what was going on in there.
53:17
And that's not really the case anymore.
53:20
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That's really interesting.
53:23
Like I said, there's always ways to find optimism and there's always changes that
53:27
are happening and yes, sometimes they're a little slow,
53:29
but they do end up going. One thing I always love when we first roll out a policy,
53:34
I mentioned like the high seas,
53:36
but I'm sure with a lot of other policies you can use as an example.
53:39
It may not look great at the beginning or it may have some loops or some holes
53:44
in it right at the beginning. But as we use it more and more,
53:47
the big thing is that getting it there.
53:49
and getting it passed and then being able to build on it as we get in
53:53
the future and as we do a little adaptive management.
53:55
You know, you see a problem arise,
53:57
you okay, okay, there's a bit of a loophole,
53:59
so we can close that loophole or you know,
54:01
something we didn't foresee in the future.
54:03
So I think that's what gives me optimism around these types of policies.
54:07
Same with like marine protected
54:08
Mm-hmm.
54:08
areas, it may not be perfect right at the beginning,
54:11
Right.
54:11
but
54:11
at least it's designated and then we can build on it for implementation,
54:15
funding, enforcement and
54:16
Right. Exactly.
54:17
And so forth. So I really love that.
54:18
Now look,
54:20
Holly, we have a little time. I'd like to do something with you.
54:23
Do a little bit of a lightening round in terms
54:26
Okay.
54:26
of some of the stuff that's happened in your career or what people may think
54:31
of ~ international fisheries management.
54:34
So the first one is like, what's one
54:35
Mm-hmm.
54:36
misconception of international fisheries management?
54:39
I think the misconception is that the high seas are unregulated.
54:44
Mm. okay. I like that. That's interesting.
54:48
Yeah. Yeah. I mean you can't have internet
54:48
How so? Like 'cause I
54:51
'cause I think there's like there's a lot for like enforcement stuff.
54:53
It's really difficult. So
54:54
Right.
54:55
what do you mean by that?
54:56
Well you still even see it now.
54:58
You see sometimes you see articles or
55:00
people speaking about like the lawlessness of the high seas.
55:03
There's no like
55:03
Yeah.
55:04
there's nothing out there and it and that's just that's not true.
55:06
I mean, yes, some of these organizations could be improved on.
55:10
Absolutely. And as you said, you know,
55:11
enforcement and ~ compliance and these are all things that can be improved
55:16
and but it isn't that I think that's a big huge misconception is that that that
55:22
there's a lot of kind of rampant activity that's unregulated going on.
55:27
I mean there are certainly is can be some illegal things,
55:30
but that
55:30
That's
55:30
because they're illegal because they're not in line with the
55:33
r adopted frameworks and regulations that are there.
55:35
So that would be that would be one that I I continue to see periodically
55:41
and I'm just like, it's just not true.
55:41
Yeah. And you're like, wait a minute.
55:43
That's not true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
55:44
Are they perfect? No, but they exist.
55:46
No. They exist.
55:48
So ~ you know.
55:49
Yeah. I
55:50
like that. I like, I like hearing that.
55:52
~ what's one development in the last five years you're most encouraged by?
55:57
~ I guess I I mean again I'm it's all repeating myself unfortunately,
56:00
but I you know, s some of the developments around gear modifications
56:06
to address ~ known demonstrated
56:11
environmental impacts. I mean whether it's from ~ the f the fads
56:16
and that I mentioned with the nonentangling fads and g moving
56:18
Mm-hmm.
56:19
to that and now they're even moving to biodegradable fads so so that they'll break
56:23
down and and and not pollute the environment.
56:26
I think that's a big one. And the other one is,
56:28
you know, some of the ~ bycatch mitigation techniques
56:33
to ~ safely release ~ animals from either the deck
56:38
or n you know
56:41
when they're hooked or when they be not even letting them get on board
56:44
in the first place, keeping them in the water,
56:45
bringing them back. And
56:45
Yeah. Yeah.
56:47
things like, you know, there's there's some critically endangered seabirds
56:51
and some of the RFMOs have adopted some much stricter measures to
56:55
try to address some of that, the impact of those of of certain gear types
57:02
on those seabirds. And you know,
57:03
this is like a situation where
57:05
The solution is there to reverse the extinction of these seabirds and some
57:09
of the RFMOs are taking they can do more,
57:11
but they're taking steps in the right direction.
57:11
Yeah. Right.
57:13
And that's
57:14
that's a huge deal for me. Like ~ you know,
57:17
when when we know what we can do and
57:18
Yeah.
57:19
if you don't do it
57:20
Agreed. Agreed.
57:21
that's pretty discouraging. But they
57:23
are starting to move in that direction and and that direction of travel
57:25
is there and that and so that's you know,
57:28
that's a f s a a source of optimism for me and and and ~ encourage something that
57:34
I'm encouraged by.
57:35
Love it, love it. ~ what's one thing you wish more people understood about tuna
57:40
fishery sustainability?
57:41
that it's a process and it takes time.
57:43
Hmm. Yeah. I think people get impatient.
57:44
I mean, these are
57:46
They hear about it and they're like,
57:47
no, no, we just gotta stop it.
57:48
Just gotta stop it all over it.
57:49
Right. Gotta ban it, gotta stop it.
57:50
That's not gonna happen. Yeah.
57:51
Or why is it taking so long? Well,
57:51
Yeah. Right.
57:53
you know,
57:53
like I mentioned, like you have four forty,
57:55
forty five countries sitting in a room once a year.
57:57
Mm-hmm.
57:58
The fact that they can adopt up to a dozen measures is is in one one meeting
58:01
That's crazy. Yeah.
58:03
is is a lot. That's pretty good.
58:04
Yeah.
58:04
But
58:06
~ I think there's the sense that it it takes time and it takes a i it is a process.
58:10
And when you're working with you know,
58:13
dozens of countries
58:15
that come from different cultures,
58:16
different languages, different ~ capacities,
58:20
different development levels. It it takes time.
58:23
Yeah, I can imagine. A last question for you.
58:26
~ what's one of your most memorable times like in a
58:32
in a room negotiating you know,
58:35
some sort of international agreement with fisheries?
58:38
~ what's one of the most memorable experiences that you've that you've
58:42
had over your career?
58:45
gosh. that's a tough one to pick one.
58:48
always say that someday I'll write my memoir and it'll be called
58:51
Yeah.
58:51
The True Lies of the Pacific because no one will believe half of the half
58:55
of the stuff that I could tell you.
58:57
I think one of my more memorable moments was
59:00
well, it was in New York. It wasn't in it wasn't for a tuna negotiation.
59:03
It was when I was chairing the sustainable fisheries resolution negotiations
59:07
and we worked all night it was Thanksgiving,
59:12
actually, ~ to adopt the resolution which was sixty one one sixty one
59:17
one five for the bottom fishing bottom fishing pre ~ provisions.
59:22
And I was chairing
59:24
the meeting and I had this one country that was potentially holding gonna hold stuff
59:31
up and I went to them and I said
59:35
I'm going to do this and I know that's not what you want.
59:39
Mm-hmm.
59:40
But I'm not going to ask you to agree to this.
59:42
I'm just going to ask you to accept it.
59:47
Mm.
59:49
Because again, one of my other little mantras don't ask me to say yes
59:52
and I won't say no. And that's basically
59:53
Right. Right.
59:55
what I did. And so then we got to the moment of truth and,
1:00:00
you know, basically said, you know,
1:00:03
can everyone live with this? Can is there anyone that objects to this?
1:00:06
~ not does everyone accept it,
1:00:10
but as and ~ they they didn't
1:00:14
put their hand up and we adopted it by consensus and it went forward at like
1:00:18
Amazing.
1:00:19
nine AM on Thanksgiving morning.
1:00:22
And
1:00:22
wow.
1:00:23
and it was like it was it was super intense because we had we just worked
1:00:28
all night and every you know, there were so those were the moments where like
1:00:31
the fact that you had spent time in the trenches with these with
1:00:36
people, I mean, I'm still friends with people from that night,
1:00:39
from those days. Like I I'm still
1:00:39
Yeah. Yeah.
1:00:41
friends with some of them in the sense that,
1:00:43
you know, you kinda go through that with everyone.
1:00:46
And I mean I had situations where I had,
1:00:48
you know, delegations coming up to me and they're like,
1:00:50
but I want this and I like, no,
1:00:52
we're not doing that. You know,
1:00:53
I mean I I you got to a point as a chair where you had to basically
1:00:56
you had to direct it. ~ and
1:00:58
Yeah.
1:00:59
and y you know, but it took weeks of getting to that point to where
1:01:03
Yeah.
1:01:04
now was the moment where I s I was like I I was like,
1:01:07
We that's not gonna work and we're not gonna go there like so,
1:01:12
you know and people kinda got to the point where they trusted you.
1:01:15
They're like, All right, yeah,
1:01:16
Right.
1:01:16
okay.
1:01:17
You know, you're right. And ~
1:01:18
'Cause you weren't saying no
1:01:19
to something, it's just it's not gonna be able to have it at this point in time,
1:01:23
right?
1:01:24
It's
1:01:24
not gonna it w it would blow it you know,
1:01:26
kinda blow everything up. Like we we'd
1:01:27
Yeah.
1:01:28
reach such a delicate place where everyone was sort of like had a little bit,
1:01:32
everyone had a little bit that they could live with.
1:01:32
Yeah. Yeah.
1:01:34
And
1:01:35
if someone got a little bit more,
1:01:36
it would tip the scales and then the
1:01:37
Right.
1:01:38
whole thing could fall apart. And but it like I said,
1:01:41
it takes so much time to get to that point where you
1:01:44
Mm-hmm.
1:01:45
feel that you can speak plainly with people and they will trust you to k
1:01:52
to to shepherd it forward and and get them get them through the night
1:01:55
and that's what we did.
1:01:56
Yeah. That's amazing. Holly, this has been
1:02:00
such a pleasure to have you on the podcast.
1:02:02
You are absolutely phenomenal.
1:02:02
Thank you. It was so much fun.
1:02:04
we we had a great I had a great time as well.
1:02:06
I wanna thank you for joining us and love to invite you back,
1:02:10
talk more ISSF, talk more stories of international policy 'cause I'm sure
1:02:11
sure. Any time. Yes.
1:02:14
you have more. ~ but we really appreciate
1:02:17
you coming on. It's been a pleasure.
1:02:19
All right. Well thank you so much.
1:02:20
It was such a a fun time, Andrew,
1:02:22
and I really appreciate the opportunity to chat with you about this and
1:02:25
and I'm be very happy to come back and and share some more stories
1:02:29
and and have another conversation with you.
1:02:30
It was it was a pleasure.
1:02:32
Fantastic. Love it. Talk to you soon.
1:02:35
Thank you.
1:02:35
Thank you, Holly, for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect
1:02:38
the Ocean podcast. Wow. That was amazing.
1:02:42
I loved every minute of that. Not only was Holly like an infectious to speak to,
1:02:47
like she's just so like she's she's so positive.
1:02:50
and and she's she's so passionate about the work that she does.
1:02:54
She's had some great stories that she told us.
1:02:56
~ and it was it was great to be able to see how policy moves forward
1:03:01
and how some like negotiations,
1:03:02
although they're difficult,
1:03:03
There's certain ways to go about getting the the answer that you want with
1:03:07
a little bit of compromise, but to move that needle forward to in order
1:03:11
to get what you need to get. And this is in the case in most cases
1:03:15
was like tuna fishing policy. And I just think working with every part
1:03:19
of the supply chain is amazing.
1:03:20
~ Holly's amazing. The ISSF is amazing.
1:03:22
And so I'm really happy that we're able to bring this interview to
1:03:25
you because I think we need to know more about tuna,
1:03:29
right? Tuna fisheries and seeing.
1:03:30
what the latest things are happening because I think it has a bad name overall when
1:03:34
people think about tuna fisheries.
1:03:36
And but it's getting better as we as we showed you with the interview from with with
1:03:41
Susan Jackson earlier this year.
1:03:42
I'll link to it in the show notes.
1:03:44
~ but yeah I just think it's great.
1:03:45
If you have any questions or comments or concerns about tuna fisheries,
1:03:48
I would love to hear that from you.
1:03:50
Just if you're on Spotify, you can comment and you can let us know.
1:03:53
But also if you want to hit me up on my socials,
1:03:55
Instagram, Facebook
1:03:57
or TikTok or any of the others,
1:03:58
the links are in the show notes.
1:04:00
And of course, I'll link to the ISSF website ~ in ~ in the show notes as well
1:04:05
so you can check that out for all the information,
1:04:07
all the resources, because that's what we try and do here.
1:04:09
Provide a resource for you about the ocean so that you can make better decisions
1:04:14
in your daily life in and around the ocean so that we treat the ocean
1:04:18
a lot better than we thought we were doing before.
1:04:21
So that's great. So thank you,
1:04:22
Holly. I appreciate it. Thank you to the international
1:04:24
Seafood Sustainability Foundation.
1:04:26
We really appreciate you lending us,
1:04:27
Holly, for the ~ hour or so that we actually were able to chat.
1:04:31
it was great to be able to talk to her.
1:04:33
And I want to thank you for joining us and listening to this episode ~
1:04:37
and to all the other episodes,
1:04:38
Monday to Friday. Hit that follow button if you enjoy this type of content.
1:04:42
And I want to thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of
1:04:45
the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
1:04:46
I am your host, Andrew Lewin. Have a great weekend.
1:04:49
We'll talk to you on Monday and happy conservation.