Latest / Foul Territory / Former GM Jim Bowden offers his take on MLB owners, defends the salary cap & responds to Bruce Meyer

Transcript

Former GM Jim Bowden offers his take on MLB owners, defends the salary cap & responds to Bruce Meyer · Foul Territory

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Front office unfiltered special edition, Jim Bowden, who also writes
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: great articles for the athletic and JB, it's good to
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: see you. So you wrote one about the lockout that's
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: coming up, the labor battle that's happening. And I'll also
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: do this disclaimer at the top. Like we're going to
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: do this and then we're going to talk ball again
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: for the rest of the six weeks that we have.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: We're going to enjoy it.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: And then we can do this again all off season long,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: but I'm mad at you for writing this.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: Now you couldn't have waited six weeks to write this article.
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: Now we got to talk about this crap, right? With
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: the nine games left in the season and about to
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: go to the postseason.
• 0:43
  Speaker 4: We only have to talk about it between now and Monday.
• 0:45
  Speaker 4: And then you can just, that way all the focus
• 0:47
  Speaker 4: will be on the playoffs and the World Series. And
• 0:49
  Speaker 4: we'll revisit this after awards season.
• 0:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah, but if you just would have waited.
• 0:54
  Speaker 6: Jim, you could have just waited for us.
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: Just waited until the last out of the World Series.
• 0:57
  Speaker 6: Then put this out there. And then I'd be like, okay,
• 0:59
  Speaker 6: now we really.
• 1:00
  Speaker 5: Have to talk about it.
• 1:01
  Speaker 6: But because you did this.
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: We have to have Bruce Meyer on. We have to
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: talk to you two out of three days. Like, man,
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: you have stirred the hornet's nest up.
• 1:07
  Speaker 5: Thanks, Jim.
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: Well, it's the only way I can get back on
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: foul territory more often, right? I had to figure out
• 1:12
  Speaker 4: a way, and this was my strategy.
• 1:14
  Speaker 5: And it worked, by the way.
• 1:14
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I know.
• 1:16
  Speaker 5: It worked.
• 1:16
  Speaker 6: And by the way, McGonigal's going to win it, Rookie
• 1:18
  Speaker 6: of the Year. So I have to give that away.
• 1:19
  Speaker 5: Oh, thank you for giving up on that. Thank you.
• 1:21
  Speaker 5: Thank you. Glad Eric and I were right once again. Okay.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: Well, when Murakami goes over the second half, it's really
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: hard to win an award.
• 1:29
  Speaker 5: I'm sorry.
• 1:30
  Speaker 4: That's true.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Don't worry, we're going to have fun with Caminero against
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Jordan Alvarez, talk all that. But let's focus here. We're
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: going to do whatever, 10, 12 minutes on this.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Let's set it up.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, so JB, you put your article out and you
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: lay out many details of what the current proposals look
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: like that have been presented publicly by the player side
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: and the league slash team side. So Bruce Meyer comes
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: onto the show. He runs the player side, the players association.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to make this as simple as possible for
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: the crowd to understand, especially on YouTube. And I love
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: reaction videos. So what we did was we prepared a
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: few of the clips and then we want to get
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: your replies since you weren't on with us for the interview.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: So let's start with Bruce Meyer talking about the, I
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: would say biggest part of your article, just the facts themselves.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Here we go.
• 2:15
  Speaker 7: His facts are completely wrong. Um, And that really permeates
• 2:19
  Speaker 7: the whole article. And, you know, had he reached out
• 2:23
  Speaker 7: to us in any way or talked to us, you know,
• 2:25
  Speaker 7: I would have been happy to explain to him. But
• 2:27
  Speaker 7: one of the central premises in that article is that
• 2:31
  Speaker 7: the league's offer would pay the players more money, not
• 2:34
  Speaker 7: just more money, but he says significantly more money. And,
• 2:38
  Speaker 7: you know, that statement is repeated numerous times. In fact,
• 2:40
  Speaker 7: he says, how could you not agree to, you know, 50%
• 2:43
  Speaker 7: of the revenues and guaranteed and You know, it's more money.
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: And it's just wrong if they're not offering more money. Okay,
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: so let me take it from here. And first of all,
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: just to explain to our listeners, I had reached out
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: to Bruce Meyer before he went on your show yesterday
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: through Sylvia Alvarez in his office. And he has agreed
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: to join my radio show this Sunday at noon on
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: MLB Network Radio, Sirius XM 89. And this will give
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: the two of us an opportunity to to go through
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: whatever facts that he finds that was incorrect in the article.
• 3:18
  Speaker 5: Now, the only fact there that he pushed back.
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: On, as you just heard his words, were that the
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: owner's proposal did not pay the players more money.
• 3:27
  Speaker 5: So let's address that quickly.
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: Number one, the proposal that is not denied from either side.
• 3:34
  Speaker 5: Is that the clubs were offering.
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: Increasing the minimum from $ 780, 000 to 900,000 or a million
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: if you get a year of service time. That accounts
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: for a 28% raise for all non-arbitration eligible players in theory.
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: Number two, again, not denied by either side, the clubs
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: offered a salary floor of 171.2 million and a salary
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: cap of 245.3 million. All of this is available online
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: for anyone to read.
• 4:07
  Speaker 5: Now, if you go by that math and you go by.
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: Opening day rosters, 12 teams would have to increase their
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: payroll for a combined amount of $ 621 million.
• 4:17
  Speaker 5: Just to get to the floor.
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: That doesn't include a team that wants to go between
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: the floor and the cap.
• 4:23
  Speaker 5: That's just to get to the floor.
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: In the proposal, eight teams would have to reduce their
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: payroll by a combined $ 577 million. When you do the
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: simple math, that's at least an increase of about $ 50 million.
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: In addition, The club's proposal is to reduce free agency
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: from six years to five years if the player's 30
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: or older, and that would put an extra 350 players
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: on an open market to get contracts. It's hard for
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: me to look at those facts and those numbers, and
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: we're only talking about the 40-man roster, by the way.
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: I'm not talking about entry, amateur level, signing bonuses, or
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: anything outside of that. But if you look at payroll alone,
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: It's hard to argue, in my opinion, those facts that
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: their offer doesn't increase the payroll for players significantly.
• 5:17
  Speaker 8: Why does a cap need to be the reason that I,
• 5:20
  Speaker 8: my entire career, would get a raise? Always a minimum
• 5:23
  Speaker 8: type of player. Why does a cap increase that? Why
• 5:28
  Speaker 8: couldn't that increase without a cap, meaning we're able to
• 5:32
  Speaker 8: pay all the players a little bit more?
• 5:36
  Speaker 5: It can. Absolutely, you can. It doesn't have to be
• 5:38
  Speaker 5: with a floor cap.
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: The minimum should, and it should go up. I mean, look,
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: we have a problem, I think, in the industry as
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: a whole, in my view, is that the top 10%
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: of the players are making 60% of the money. That
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: is just an absurd number. Like in the NFL, it's 51%.
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: But in the NFL, they have a quarterback that's the
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: most important position in sports. And those guys are all
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: making $ 50 to $ 60 million a year. But you look
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: at the other sport, NBA, it's 41%. NHL, it's 31%.
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: In baseball, in the present system, 10% of the players
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: are getting 60% of the pool. And we have a
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: system right now that doesn't help the non-arbitration eligible players.
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: A lot of them don't make enough money for what
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: they bring to the table.
• 6:25
  Speaker 5: And the people.
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: In the middle aren't getting enough either. So Again, it
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: doesn't have to be a floor cap proposal. In this
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: particular article, all I did was take the proposals that
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: were made public by both sides.
• 6:39
  Speaker 5: And I just gave my former GM take on them.
• 6:42
  Speaker 5: That's all this is.
• 6:45
  Speaker 9: Back in the day, Kratzy and I were looking for tickets.
• 6:47
  Speaker 9: It was so hard to find a seat or anything available.
• 6:51
  Speaker 9: You'd have to go online and there was nothing there.
• 6:52
  Speaker 9: But now with SeatGeek, they make it so much easier
• 6:56
  Speaker 9: for you. They have the green light special. What does
• 6:58
  Speaker 9: that mean? It means when the green light is on,
• 7:00
  Speaker 9: you can get some of the best seats available. Go
• 7:03
  Speaker 9: to SeatGeek. Kratzy understands how easy it is.
• 7:05
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I know you used to scalp your tickets, but look,
• 7:08
  Speaker 8: it's way, way better now because you get to just
• 7:10
  Speaker 8: go right on SeatGeek and find your postseason tickets. I'm
• 7:14
  Speaker 8: not even going to fast forward to the postseason. I'm
• 7:16
  Speaker 8: going to say the run to October because some teams
• 7:19
  Speaker 8: aren't in yet, so right now is the time to
• 7:21
  Speaker 8: get it, and those seats are available.
• 7:23
  Speaker 9: And it's playoff time, the best time for baseball. And
• 7:26
  Speaker 9: of course, I have a code for you all. You
• 7:28
  Speaker 9: can use... code territory 10 for 10 off your next
• 7:31
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• 7:35
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• 7:38
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• 7:40
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• 7:43
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• 7:44
  Speaker 10: All right jim i gotta i gotta follow a quick
• 7:48
  Speaker 10: follow on this i had that argument done for 20
• 7:50
  Speaker 10: years ago about the middle class is being eliminated and
• 7:53
  Speaker 10: oh no the salaries are going up salaries are going
• 7:55
  Speaker 10: up but Does a cap really eliminate that?
• 7:57
  Speaker 6: Does a cap on a floor eliminate the middle.
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: Class player, the guy who's a seven-year vet, but he's
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: not good enough to get a long-term deal, but most
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: teams won't sign him now unless he's a non-roster guy.
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: Most good teams usually have a veteran bench guys that
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: come in and teach the young guys, but now teams,
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: they all want to go to these young kids because
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: it makes the organization look good, it makes the scout
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: look good, it makes the prospect list look good, and
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: they're like, we can get a little bit less production,
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: but We don't really care. So does a cap floor
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: system help include those players back into the game?
• 8:32
  Speaker 5: It has it in all the other sports.
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: I'm not going to sit there and tell you that
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: the class is doing great in the other sports.
• 8:37
  Speaker 5: They're not.
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: The other thing I'll say with a cap system is
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: a cap hurts the highest paid players. There are players
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: in the cap system that have to take less money
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: if they want their team to be a better team.
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 8:50
  Speaker 5: Teams that are at the very high end of the cap.
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: We've seen in the NFL, as an example, that both
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: Tom Brady and Pat Mahomes have taken less money to
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: allow their team to spread the money around so they
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: can play on teams where they can win Super Bowls, right? So, look,
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: I've never said the cap system is perfect. I don't
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: think it is perfect in any of.
• 9:11
  Speaker 5: The leagues that are there.
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: I do think it's a better system than the one
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: that exists right now. I do think that we have
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: a system right now where the players– as a whole
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: aren't getting enough of the revenue in general period, no
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: matter how you want to define revenue. I know both
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: sides look at that differently. I still think the bottom
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: line compared to other sports though, is the present system.
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: The players aren't getting enough of the pie.
• 9:38
  Speaker 8: Why is that a player prop? Why, why, why couldn't
• 9:41
  Speaker 8: that be solved by the owners?
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: Well, it has to be solved by the system that,
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: that you're in, you know, you know, for, you know,
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: to me, when we're in this system, if you're a
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: small market team, and let's talk about the facts, right?
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: The last time a bottom 10 revenue team won a
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: World Series was in 2003, 23 years ago.
• 10:05
  Speaker 5: Like, come on.
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: The last time a bottom 15 team, revenue-wise, won a
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: World Series wasn't in the last 10 years. It was
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: Kansas City 11 years ago. I mean, that's the system
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: that we're living in. And we can argue Milwaukee and
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: Tampa all we want. And look, I hope it'd be
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: great for baseball if Milwaukee and Tampa are in the
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: World Series, but it's not going to change the fact
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: that in this system, there's.
• 10:26
  Speaker 5: A huge advantage.
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: So if you're a bottom market team, And that includes
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: Milwaukee and Tampa Bay. But you look at Pittsburgh, Miami,
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: a lot of these teams are like, yeah, I'm not
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: going to spend more money.
• 10:37
  Speaker 5: I'll put it in infrastructure. I'll put it in research
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: and development.
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: I'll put it in the trade jet machines. I'll put
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: it in the computer systems. I'm not going to do it.
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: If you have a floor and a cap, then you
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: have to give it to the major league players. And look,
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: I know the union's also covering entry-level amateur players and
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: that they have to fight NILs.
• 10:56
  Speaker 5: And I get all the other math. But what I'm trying.
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: To get to directly is how do you get the
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: 40-man roster players making more money? When you look at
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: the growth of player payroll, right, compared to other sports,
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: over the last four CBAs, the players' growth in salaries
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: are the slowest of all four sports. Their salaries have
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: gone up 21%, while the NFL has gone up 45%.
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: The NBA has gone up around 35%. So, MLB players
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: are lagging behind while all these other people are growing.
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: In the meantime, what's happening with the owners? The Padres
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: just sold for $ 3. 9 billion.
• 11:35
  Speaker 5: The Angels just agreed to sell for $ 4 billion. The
• 11:39
  Speaker 5: owners are doing great. By the way, the star players
• 11:41
  Speaker 5: are too. $ 765 million for Soto. $ 700 million for Otani.
• 11:43
  Speaker 5: $ 500 million for Guerrero. Kyle Tucker gets $ 60 million a year.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: It's going great for them.
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: But as a body, you know, we have backup catchers
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: that have played in the big leagues eight years that
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: are driving Ubers at age 40.
• 11:59
  Speaker 5: That shouldn't be the case. You get to the big
• 12:00
  Speaker 5: leagues and you're a big league player.
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: And you're that kind of service time, you should have
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: enough money that you don't have to work the rest
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: of your life.
• 12:06
  Speaker 6: Don't talk about crats like that. He doesn't drive Uber.
• 12:09
  Speaker 6: He drives a Lyft, Jim, okay?
• 12:10
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 12:12
  Speaker 6: I mean, seriously. Yeah, I mean, at least he drives
• 12:15
  Speaker 6: a Uber Black, okay? Man, that was a harsh... All right.
• 12:18
  Speaker 6: So I asked.
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: OK, so, you know, you keep saying players, players, players.
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: But OK, everyone says the World Series is luck. You
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: just got to get to the postseason and whatever happens happens.
• 12:26
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: So it shouldn't matter if you're big market, small market.
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: If you get to the postseason, whoop-dee-doo, you have a chance. OK,
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: I asked Bruce Meyer. He didn't really have a response
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: from yesterday. Take all the money. I threw random numbers
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: out there. Ten billion, 30 billion dollars. Each team gets
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: a billion dollars.
• 12:40
  Speaker 6: You have a floor. You have to spend 200 million
• 12:42
  Speaker 6: or 100 million. on players. Let's see which owner wants
• 12:45
  Speaker 6: us to make money and which owner doesn't. Because that, right?
• 12:49
  Speaker 6: Because that would show it.
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: It's not an owner versus owner fight because certain owners
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: get money and they just pocket it. They get revenue sharing.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: They pocket it, right? So this isn't, the players are like,
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: hey man, we'll take all the money you want to
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: give us. But some owners are like, ah, without a floor,
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: we don't have to spend it. We just put it
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: in our pocket and become richer than we already are.
• 13:08
  Speaker 5: Yes, agreed.
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: Look, the way I see it, owners, number one, Owners
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: want to make a profit, they want to increase the
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: value of the franchise, and they want to win world championships.
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: Different owners have different priorities of those three, but every
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: owner basically wants those three accomplished. What do the players want?
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: They want to make the most money and they want
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: to win world championships. Hopefully most of them want to
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: win world championships. Some of them actually just want to
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: make more money. I get both sides.
• 13:37
  Speaker 5: What do the fans want?
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: The fans want their team to have a chance to
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: win a world championship. The fans want to be able
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: to watch and be entertained by superstar players, and they
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: want to be able to keep the superstar players throughout
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: their elite prime years, right? All 30 markets, that's what
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: the fans want. So in theory, again, it's just my opinion,
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying I'm right, and I'm not saying there's
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: not other ways to do this, but in my opinion,
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: if we can.
• 14:05
  Speaker 5: Establish a, that both sides can establish what the revenue is.
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: I mean, I hear the clubs think it's 48% go
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: to the players, the union yesterday, Bruce Meyer surprised me
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: and said to you guys, it's 55% or more.
• 14:18
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: Obviously everyone's measuring revenue differently, but if you put the
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: revenue on the same page, get both of them to
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: define it the same and create what percentage of that
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: should go to players. And probably it takes a third
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: party accounting firm to come in, to look at all
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: the numbers, right? But in theory, if you can agree
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: on what portion the players should get, and then as
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: the revenues go up, the next TV deal should be
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: huge after 28, right? You know, instead of having to
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: worry about negotiating, whatever the percentage is, it goes up
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: when the revenue goes up. I just think there's a
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: system to do that. And then, look, I don't think
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: everyone has to spend the same amount of money. But
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: if we have a floor and say, you've got to
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: spend this, and then the differential has to be within
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: 100 million or 150, whatever the number people decide is right.
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: I just think that would be the best system in theory.
• 15:09
  Speaker 11: No, we didn't plan this.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: And also, no, Kratts, we're not wearing the same exact
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Mack Weldon shirts. I've got a green and you've got
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: the heather blue.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: I do. I do.
• 15:19
  Speaker 8: And the whole array of colors. There's so many to
• 15:22
  Speaker 8: choose from with Mack Weldon. And not just in your shirts.
• 15:25
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• 16:09
  Speaker 8: The argument with football and basketball is their national TV
• 16:14
  Speaker 8: deals are making them a lot of money. So isn't
• 16:17
  Speaker 8: that why the salaries are going up and baseball will
• 16:19
  Speaker 8: never have that because we are a regional sport and
• 16:22
  Speaker 8: not that national league? mega house that those sports are?
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think there's significant revenue both locally and
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: nationally in Major League Baseball.
• 16:34
  Speaker 5: There's enough money to go around in my view.
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: And I think when we look at the next TV deal,
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: in theory, I think it's going to be record-breaking, which
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: will be really positive. We're going to have expansion. That's
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: going to bring a lot of revenue into the industry
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: as well. I mean, look, this industry is doing extremely well.
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: And so again, to me, the idea, if both sides
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: just would negotiate the numbers that work best and have
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: everyone talk about apples to apples, for one side to
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: say it's 48% is shared with players and another side
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: to say it's 55%, it would be a lot better
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: if both sides, if they're going to use the media
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: and the public to be transparent of what these proposals are,
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: then I think the proposals should be clearer. Like I
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: can't wait to talk to Bruce Meyer on Sunday because,
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: you know, he kept saying this isn't right or this
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: isn't right, but he never explained why. He never pushed
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: back on any of the facts. He just said it's
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: not true. So, you know, it's hard for me to
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: look at the numbers we just talked about in terms
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: of what we see publicly the proposal was that clearly
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: shows that.
• 17:37
  Speaker 5: They offered more money.
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: And by the way, in my article, I also wrote
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: the present system is going to pay the players more money, too,
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: like it always does every single year.
• 17:45
  Speaker 5: So I'm not saying that's.
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: The case, but it's hard to argue that their proposal
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: would cost the players.
• 17:52
  Speaker 5: Billions of dollars.
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: He didn't explain the math. And hopefully Sunday he'll explain
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: the math to us.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: Well, the thing is, I mean, they're not completely allowed
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: to explain the math, right? I mean, one of the
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: ways to solve this, or at least publicly solve this
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: when numbers are disputed, and then we'll get to the
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: next clip here, is we'd love to see more numbers, right?
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: They're not they don't share everything. Most of these are
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: private entities and we only get to see the Braves
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: and I guess some of the Blue Jays, but that
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: would help if we're able to look at it all
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: and then we can make the decision right now. Yeah,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: everyone's going to look at things differently. We can't see everything, right?
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: Well, and I think, Scott, again, and just my own
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: opinion in situations like this, I think it makes sense
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: to bring the third party and let a non-biased third
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: party accounting firm come in and be able to audit
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: all of the numbers and all.
• 18:41
  Speaker 5: The proposals from both sides.
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: And compare them so that both sides can get a
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: non-biased viewpoint of what each side is offering.
• 18:49
  Speaker 5: That, to me, is something that might make sense.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: I'm with you. I would love that.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: And then to be transparent with that third party telling
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: us what they see, kind of like a little arbitration
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: with the books.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, so next up, I got two more clips for you.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Next up, let's get to Bruce talking about what the
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: owners are like in the room going up against the
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: players during this labor battle.
• 19:13
  Speaker 7: They want a cap system because it'll increase their profits
• 19:16
  Speaker 7: and they think it'll increase their franchise.
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: That's it.
• 19:18
  Speaker 7: That's why they want it.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 19:20
  Speaker 7: They don't want it because they think it's good for
• 19:22
  Speaker 7: the fans. They don't want it, you know, for any
• 19:25
  Speaker 7: other reason. And so, you know, they can share all
• 19:28
  Speaker 7: their revenues. They need our agreement to that because that's
• 19:32
  Speaker 7: the subject of bargaining.
• 19:35
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: So, I mean, look, he's not wrong that they want
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: a cap because it will increase the value of franchises.
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: He's not wrong. but they want a cap to make
• 19:44
  Speaker 5: more profits. That's not wrong.
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: I think what is wrong is to not include, especially
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: the bottom 15 revenue teams and more, that teams want
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: a better chance of being able to financially compete on
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: a level playing field.
• 19:58
  Speaker 5: That is a big part of it.
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: I mean, look, I was the GM of the Cincinnati
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: Reds and Washington Nationals. I never had competitive payrolls. I
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: know what it's like. I mean, you can't go up
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: against the Yankees and the Dodgers and who can put
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: seven $ 30 million players on the field more than you can.
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: I mean, the difference in talent is incredible. So, you know,
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: I think to think that's the only two reasons, I
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: just don't think that's fair. I certainly think that, you know,
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: the fans pay the bill for both sides, right? Players
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: are getting paid by the fans and businesses.
• 20:33
  Speaker 5: So are the owners. Everyone's getting paid by them.
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: And I think it would be ignorant to not think
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: that owners, players alike, actually do care what the fans want.
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: And the fans have spoken loudly in the polls that
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: are out there. And I don't care if you look
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: at the scientific polls or the unscientific polls.
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: I even put one up on X.
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: It is very strong towards fans right now wanting a
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: floor cap system.
• 20:58
  Speaker 5: That's what they want.
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: I haven't seen a poll that says the opposite. But yeah,
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: of course it's true that If you're an owner, you
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: want to improve the value of your team, you want
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: to make money, and you want to win championships.
• 21:08
  Speaker 5: Yes, to all three of those.
• 21:11
  Speaker 8: Before I say what I'm going to say, would you
• 21:12
  Speaker 8: agree that fans want a cap because they feel like
• 21:16
  Speaker 8: it will create parity, and that's why they say they
• 21:19
  Speaker 8: want a cap?
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: I think it's really hard because I think you have
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: to decipher fan bases. I don't think fans with the
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: Dodgers and the Yankees and the Mets and the Red
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: Sox really... really need a salary cap or four. I
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: think we're talking about the smaller markets, the Pittsburghs, the athletics,
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: the Rays, the Brewers. I'll use teams that are winning too.
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: I'm not doing that. I think, you know, if you
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: let Eric Neander of Tampa Bay be able to spend,
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: you know, an extra $ 50 million with a team he
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: has right now, or Milwaukee spend an extra $ 50 million
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: with a team he has right now, would that improve
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: their chances of getting the World Series right now?
• 21:58
  Speaker 5: Probably, right? And I think that is more the story here.
• 22:02
  Speaker 5: But it's not everybody.
• 22:03
  Speaker 8: I mean, we saw what happens when a small market
• 22:06
  Speaker 8: GM gets to spend money when it hasn't worked out.
• 22:09
  Speaker 6: So it's not always apples to apples.
• 22:11
  Speaker 8: But my question to you is, you said, I forget
• 22:14
  Speaker 8: what the stats, since the 2015 Royals, no small market
• 22:19
  Speaker 8: team or low payroll team has won the World Series, correct?
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, what I said was, of the bottom 15 revenue
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: teams in the last 10 years, None of them have
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: won the World Series.
• 22:32
  Speaker 8: But the same thing I'm hearing from GMs and teams who, or,
• 22:36
  Speaker 8: and Pobos, president of baseball operations are, we just got
• 22:40
  Speaker 8: to try to get into the playoffs and then it's
• 22:42
  Speaker 8: a crap shoot. So can they say both things and
• 22:46
  Speaker 8: both be true? Or is it just one of those
• 22:49
  Speaker 8: things that is, it's a convenient argument or a convenient
• 22:54
  Speaker 8: side to an argument?
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: No, I mean, look, both things can be true. I
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: believe wherever he gets in the postseason has a shot.
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: I mean, a few years ago, we saw Texas and
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: Arizona in the World Series. That was a fun World Series.
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: We weren't kind of expecting that. Yeah, I mean, the
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: postseason is a whole second season, as you know.
• 23:10
  Speaker 5: There's no question about it.
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: But you can't argue just the facts that the last
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: time a bottom 10 remedy team won a World Series was,
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: you know, if you're 22 years old, you've never seen
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: it in your lifetime.
• 23:21
  Speaker 9: Right?
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: Some of these 22-year-old players in the big leagues, in
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: their entire life, they've never seen a bottom 10 revenue
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: team win a World Series. So, I mean, it's hard
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: to argue that we don't have that issue.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: JB, before the last clip, question for you, because you've
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: been in the room before, right, with owners. Back when
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: you were GM, you spent some time in the owner's
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: room during a labor battle.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: It's different. Obviously, that was 30 years ago, that particular
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: battle in the mid-90s.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: But How many owners do you think are not as
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: concerned about the year to year up or down profitability
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: or loss of the team and thinking, hey, long term,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: this is going to work out for me. I need
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: to put wins together. You know, like how many think
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: that's first priority versus when they're going into this saying, hey,
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: I need to make sure I'm making my cash here
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: or I'm at least breaking even so I never lose
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: a dime and then I can sell it for for
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: 30 X.
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that is a phenomenal question, and I've got to
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: answer it this way. And just for the listeners that
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: don't know, in 1994 and 1995 is the last time
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: that I'll be at a work stoppage. And during that period,
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: I was the acting owner and president representing the Cincinnati
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: Reds because my owner, Marge Schott, was suspended from baseball
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: for racist remarks.
• 24:33
  Speaker 5: So while I was.
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: In Kohler, Wisconsin until 4 o'clock in the morning, basically
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: around the clock, trying to work on this... labor situation,
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: I was in a position where, you know, Cincinnati wasn't
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: the lowest market, but we were low, you know, we
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: were just on the borderline between the small market and
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: middle market back then. And the politics that took place
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: was incredible in terms of, you know, you have the
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: owners at the top of the market, owners at the
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: bottom of the market, owners in the middle, and everyone's
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: trying to pull me. Everybody needs my vote for whatever
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: they're trying to do to decide, you know, how to propose,
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: how to go forward. there's no doubt that owners are
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: completely different, right? You will have some owners that will
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: do whatever it takes to win, including losing millions of dollars.
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: I think we saw that with the Padres. I think
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: Steve Cohen wouldn't be afraid to do that with his Mets.
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: Of course, he can write all of that off because
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: of his hedge funds.
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: And the owners are so different.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: I would tell you Most of the owners that I
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: worked with, and I was at Jam for 16 and
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: a half years. It was in front offices for three decades.
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: Most of the owners I worked with wanted to break
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: even or make a little bit.
• 25:44
  Speaker 5: Of money and wanted to win championships. That in general.
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: But I will say there is no doubt in my
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: mind there are some owners that want to make money, period.
• 25:54
  Speaker 5: And that's their priority.
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: And then put a competitive team on the field, but
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: I don't want to make money. And there's others that,
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: you know, are the opposite. So there's not, you can't
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: group all 30 and say they're all this way.
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: That would be unfair and wrong.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Hey, today's episode is presented by the ASPCA Pet Health
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  Speaker 2: All right, last one. This has been good. Good back
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: and forth here. I like it.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: We're going to do a lot of this in the
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: off season. The blackout conversation, because that affects everyone now.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: It affects everyone yesterday and hopefully tomorrow. it's gone soon, right?
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: We play the game in Iowa where Iowa ironically can't
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: watch like a quarter of the league because they're in
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: this like weird zone.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: It's just, it's.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Insane and it's gone on for so long and it's
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: been written as if like it was in the, I
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: don't know, in the Bible or something. Like we never
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: needed blackouts, but let's get Bruce Meyer on this part
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: and then JB's thoughts.
• 27:42
  Speaker 7: Another thing I've heard a lot recently, you know, is
• 27:45
  Speaker 7: the league talking about blackouts. Blackouts are terrible. You know,
• 27:49
  Speaker 7: if we had a salary cap, somehow we wouldn't have blackouts. Well,
• 27:52
  Speaker 7: nobody likes blackouts, but blackouts is 100% something the league
• 27:57
  Speaker 7: has agreed to with its network partners. Players and Players
• 28:01
  Speaker 7: Association have nothing to do with that. They could end
• 28:04
  Speaker 7: blackouts whenever they want. And again, we've proposed to allow
• 28:08
  Speaker 7: them to share more revenues, including media revenues, which might
• 28:11
  Speaker 7: facilitate that. But for them to kind of either blame
• 28:16
  Speaker 7: it on us somehow, the players, or suggest that like, hey,
• 28:20
  Speaker 7: you know, if you give us a set hour cap,
• 28:21
  Speaker 7: we're going to get rid of these blackouts. I mean,
• 28:23
  Speaker 7: it's really transparent, you know, trying to hold that over
• 28:26
  Speaker 7: the heads of the fans.
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, Bruce is completely accurate there, 100%. I
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: actually haven't seen where the owners are blaming it on
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: the Players Association. The only thing I have seen is
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: that one of the owners' proposals has the 30 teams
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: sharing local media. If you were to share the local
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: media 30 ways, that would take away the territorial issue
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: with the 30 teams. So you wouldn't have to worry
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: about the rights that the Giants have or the rights
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: that the Chicago Cubs have. All of those territory rights
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: for TV, radio deals, it would be a non-issue. If
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: you're splitting it 30 equal, you don't have a need
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: for that. So the proposal, which I like better than
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: the union's proposal in sharing that, It is a benefit
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: of it, but you don't have to have a cap
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: to do it like he said. You could certainly, if
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: the 30 teams would agree to it, and you could
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: get the TV networks in the next deal to agree
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: with it, you could lift it.
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: But in this next deal, if they can get a.
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: Deal done and there's no lockout, and let's pray that happens,
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: and the union will agree to the owner's proposal of
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: let's share local media 30 ways, then those blackouts are
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: gone for next year.
• 29:47
  Speaker 5: So that's it. But again, yeah, he's right. It has
• 29:50
  Speaker 5: nothing to do with them.
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: But there are proposals that they could accept that would
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: do away with it immediately.
• 29:57
  Speaker 8: They haven't said directly that it's the player's fault for
• 30:00
  Speaker 8: the blackouts, but isn't that the perception? Isn't what a
• 30:04
  Speaker 8: lot of this is, fan polls and everything, isn't the
• 30:08
  Speaker 8: perception that, well, if the players agree to a cap,
• 30:11
  Speaker 8: we'll get rid of your blackouts that you guys hate?
• 30:14
  Speaker 8: Isn't that perception play as, well, it's kind of the
• 30:17
  Speaker 8: player's fault if we don't get rid of this?
• 30:19
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's just wrong. I mean, Bruce is right
• 30:21
  Speaker 5: in the way he broke that down.
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: So it is something that can be done without, and
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: it's not the players' association's fault or the union's fault.
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: But there could be an agreement, as I said, that's
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: made that can get rid of immediately if both sides
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: can agree to that in some kind of way.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: So final question here, final thought, and then, you know,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: we'll put this to bed. Well, under two circumstances, either
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: after the season, hopefully, but there also could be some
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: news that breaks and then we're going to talk about
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: it because that's what we do.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: We talk about whatever the news is. JB, if we.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: Are there any other ways to solve a lot of
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: the problems that both sides are talking about?
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Are there other penalties? Are there soft?
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, I call it a soft cap right now.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Is it a soft floor? Is it a harder penalty
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: on this soft cap? Stuff like that, right? That gets
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: us away from the one debate that might not actually see,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: you know, the player side budge because they've never budged
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: on it.
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: Look, I think there's always other ways in life and
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: in business to do things that work. I've never seen
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: either side budge. bring a proposal that works better than this.
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: I think there's a reason why the NFL, NBA, and
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: NHL all have it. And by the way, Bruce was
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: a consultant for all three of those leagues that now
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: all have the salary cap. Um, but look, are there
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: other ways? Yeah, there has to be other ways. No
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: one has shown me the way that can get there. Uh,
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: but I would be open to anyone that any fan
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: or any executive or any union member that can come
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: up with a plan that works better for all the
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: players and all the teams and the fans. Most importantly,
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: I would always be for that.
• 31:57
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: It doesn't have to be one way or the highway.
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: I would always be open, but right now, This seems
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: to be something that is doable and workable for everybody
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: if it's done right and negotiated properly.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Well, your article definitely made some noise and it happens
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: frequently with JB articles in The Athletic.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: A lot of clicks.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: JB, yes, like you mentioned, you're going to talk to
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Bruce Meyer, who runs the PA. You're going to talk
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: to him on Sunday on The Front Office, which I
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: haven't missed an episode in basically my entire life. So
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Thanks for swinging by. And then from here on out,
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: we talk awards, we talk playoffs and whatever else for
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: the next six weeks.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Deal?
• 32:37
  Speaker 8: Deal.
• 32:37
  Speaker 5: Love that. AJ, Eric, Scott, thanks so much. Appreciate you guys.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: Appreciate you, JB. Talk soon.