Latest / Left of the Projector / Black Panther (2018) & Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022)

Transcript

Black Panther (2018) & Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022) · Left of the Projector

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Track 2: Hello, and welcome to Left of the Projector. I'm your host, Bill,
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Track 2: back again with another film discussion from the West.
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Track 2: give us a rating and subscribe so you'll get notified of our weekly episodes
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Track 2: that drop every Tuesday. Now, on to the show.
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Track 2: This week on Left to the Projector, we won't be discussing any Academy Award-winning
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Track 2: film or something you can tell your film bros you just heard about.
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Track 2: Instead, we'll be talking about Black Panther and Black Panther 2, Wakanda Forever.
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Track 2: Both films are directed by Ryan Coogler, who turned around three years after
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Track 2: the second of these films and made the record-nominated film, Sinners.
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Track 2: Of course, this film does star Chadwick Boseman, first in piece, Michael B.
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Track 2: Jordan, Angela Bassett, Lupita Nyong'o, Daniel Guerra, Martin Freeman, and many more.
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Track 2: The second stars Angela Bassett, Leticia Wright, Danai Gurira, among others.
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Track 2: Our guest today is Brianna Cox, returning friend of the show,
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Track 2: previously from our A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night episode.
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Track 2: Brianna is a screenwriter and author of an upcoming book, Indigent,
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Track 2: which releases in March 2026.
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Track 2: Of course, as always, my co-host, Evan.
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Track 2: Ward is still tracking down Gareth Edwards. Welcome to the show, Brianna.
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Track 3: Yeah, thank you for having me on again. Yeah, I don't want to say I'm excited
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Track 3: to talk about this one, but it will be interesting.
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Track 2: We're going to have fun. We're going to have fun.
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Track 2: We chose this partially to—there's a lot going on in the world,
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Track 2: and, you know, sometimes we want to talk about things just to shit talk them,
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Track 2: and that's partially why we chose these today.
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Track 2: To talk about some things.
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Track 1: Yeah and for people who don't maybe forgot the
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Track 1: first one came out in 2018 and then the second
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Track 1: one four years later in 2022 and as
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Track 1: people obviously know they're part of the marvel cinematic
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Track 1: universe which i think now
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Track 1: has got to be up to like mid 40s in terms of
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Track 1: total numbers and the one thing i'm curious for both of you too and maybe thinking
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Track 1: about the first one especially it was probably it was a big deal when it came
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Track 1: out even though there had been a bunch of other marvel movies it broke records
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Track 1: i think it made back its budget like the opening weekend and the budget was
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Track 1: 200 million dollars so you could see how well the film did,
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Track 1: i'm just sort of like think about when you saw it the first time and you know
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Track 1: obviously we'll get into the politics of it and what is and isn't good about
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Track 1: it perhaps but just wondering like as a cultural phenomenon and like your memory of it like was it,
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Track 1: Like, do you look back on it fondly?
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Track 2: Uh, Brianna, I'm leaving this to you to start.
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Track 3: Yeah. I feel like for me, I, yeah, I've been like more and more vindicated with
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Track 3: how I feel about this movie.
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Track 3: The more time has passed because I watched it like back in 2018 and like,
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Track 3: I kind of just thought it was like, okay.
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Track 3: And kind of mid to begin with. And I felt very bad about that because it was
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Track 3: a very like culturally important movie and a very relevant movie.
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Track 3: And I was kind of just sitting there like, oh, am I just a pretentious film
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Track 3: bro who like watched too many Hiroshi Tejikahara movies? And I just like can't enjoy a fun movie now.
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Track 3: Is that the only reason why I'm disliking this?
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Track 3: And then like, what, like 10, 9 months later at the end of the year,
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Track 3: like Into the Spider-Verse came out. And I loved that movie.
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Track 3: So I was like, all right, this isn't just me having superhero fatigue.
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Track 3: This isn't just me like not wanting another like blockbuster superhero movie
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Track 3: because like I love this other example.
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Track 3: And then the second Black Panther movie came out and I also disliked that one.
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Track 3: And he's like, oh, maybe now it's superhero fatigue.
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Track 3: And then the second Spider-Verse movie came out and I loved that one as well.
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Track 2: I'm struggling with the fact that Into the Spider-Verse came out in 2018.
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Track 3: Yeah, it was. I looked that up to see the timeline, and it's crazy, actually.
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Track 3: And I was trying to just parse out, why do I not like these movies?
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Track 3: Do I just have a weird grudge against Ryan Coogler, where his second movie wasn't
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Track 3: as good as I wanted it to be, so now I just don't like his stuff on principle?
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Track 3: But then sinners came out last year and that's like
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Track 3: an immaculate movie and it's also like a
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Track 3: speculative fiction four quadrants big budget
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Track 3: blockbuster movie with a majority black cast that came
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Track 3: out in like the first quarter of the year that like
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Track 3: broke records and was very culturally important so i
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Track 3: don't think i'm being a stick in the mud now when i say i don't like black panther
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Track 3: just with all of that stuff that happened afterwards because like yeah sinners
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Track 3: is awesome I'm making up for not liking Black Panther by obsessing over that
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Track 3: movie and thinking it's amazing.
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Track 2: You know, it definitely did feel like, to be fair, when I saw this the first
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Track 2: time, I did really enjoy it.
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Track 2: I do think, even at the beginning, I was like, there are aspects of this that
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Track 2: take away from it, that take it from what I thought it could have been.
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Track 2: And it was not, you know, there are detractions in the original movie,
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Track 2: but it definitely felt like you couldn't talk bad about this movie.
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Track 2: This movie was fucking like, it just, it was crazy.
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Track 2: Cultural bombshell the wakanda forever
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Track 2: thing before the second movie you know like all
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Track 2: of that it was everywhere you couldn't you couldn't say boo about this movie
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Track 2: people loved this and it got high praise but as time has gone by i definitely
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Track 2: have come to see more and more of its flaws,
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Track 2: but especially the second movie, which I absolutely despise,
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Track 2: which I really feel like taint,
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Track 2: even taints, whatever positives there were about this movie,
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Track 2: I feel like the second movie almost detracts from them, but it's also really
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Track 2: bittersweet because for I think the, the people that made it,
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Track 2: because having just like, I literally just finished rewatching it like three,
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Track 2: like two or three hours ago that the second movie is clearly.
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Track 2: Clearly like,
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Track 2: an emotional endeavor for everyone involved about the loss of chadwick boseman like that movie is,
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Track 2: partly a true like a part of
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Track 2: the grieving process you you could tell the people involved in this that was
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Track 2: part of their grieving process making that movie and i don't know whether that
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Track 2: was a good thing or a bad thing but seeing it again and thinking about that
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Track 2: i'm like i almost feel bad talking shit about this that's like going to someone's
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Track 2: funeral and being like talking to like Like, they're, like,
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Track 2: dead, like, you know, like, they're living, like, relatively,
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Track 2: like, listen, man, you're not crying right away.
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Track 1: I remember seeing the first one and walking out of the theater being like,
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Track 1: that was, you know, kind of how I feel.
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Track 1: I mean, most of the MCU movies now are just like, I guess that was a movie.
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Track 1: Like, it was fine. It exists. It's fine.
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Track 1: But I remember walking out of Black Panther being like, that was amazing. Like, you know, so cool.
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Track 1: And it had, like, you know, a decent underlying message, although it wasn't perfect.
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Track 1: And then in the times that I've seen it since
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Track 1: then I just sort of think to myself one I was kind of wrong at the time being
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Track 1: like it wasn't as good as I remember it but I think my memory of it being so
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Track 1: good was just like the atmosphere the theater is completely full everyone was
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Track 1: really hyped up and so it was more so the,
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Track 1: everything around it that made it good, in quotes, than it was so much like
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Track 1: that the movie itself was.
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Track 1: And so, unlike you, Brianna, I definitely wasn't critical of it at the time.
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Track 1: I can admit my wrong there.
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Track 1: And watching it now, I just think about how there are potentially great messages
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Track 1: to it that are undermined by other aspects of it that just,
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Track 1: I don't know if it's a result of it just being an MCU movie and there's only
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Track 1: so much good messaging they can really impart,
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Track 1: especially when you have military presidents and the CIA is in it and all this stuff.
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Track 1: So we can talk about the, you know, like what the issues we have with it or
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Track 1: like the kind of the crux of it and then maybe go into some more of it.
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Track 1: But I don't know, like Brianna, like what you, when you saw it then.
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Track 2: I want to hear that. I want to hear Brianna's like initial takeaway because
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Track 2: she came away from it like, this is bad.
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Track 2: I want to know, like, I want to hear that.
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Track 1: What ostracized you from your community?
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Track 3: I know there was there was one person i told that i thought this was made when
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Track 3: it came out and like no one else because.
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Track 2: That's what it was like right it was like people fucking love this movie.
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Track 3: Yeah it was like i remember one
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Track 3: of the things i said coming out of it
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Track 3: was like wow this was probably a really good treatment
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Track 3: and like not a very good script
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Track 3: because like all of the things that i
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Track 3: dislike about the movie like i
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Track 3: blame firmly like it
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Track 3: being an mcu or disney production because like once again ryan coogler made
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Track 3: fruitvale station first he made sinners like seven eight years later like he
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Track 3: knows what he's doing thematically like he can make something that is like coherent in that way.
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Track 3: And just my main issue with the first Black Panther is that like all of the
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Track 3: coherence it could have had thematically is undermined by like it needing to fit into the MCEU.
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Track 3: Where it's like, oh, it has to like have this certain structure.
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Track 3: It has to have this certain tone.
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Track 3: And like, yeah, I get it. Like if I was in charge of the Marvel Cinematic Universe,
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Track 3: I would also want people to know that they're watching a Marvel movie.
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Track 3: Like I would also want it to be consistent so that like people get that it's
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Track 3: like one continuous story.
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Track 3: But also like the themes
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Track 3: and content of black panther is like so antithetical
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Track 3: to most of the other marvel movies that
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Track 3: like trying to fit it in to that
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Track 3: like structure to make sure it fits in with
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Track 3: the other films is like trying to square
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Track 3: a circle and i just felt like i was watching a movie where ryan kugler was trying
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Track 3: to square a circle for like two hours and that was like my main takeaway like
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Track 3: i like what ryan is trying to do that marvel presumably won't let him do to the fullest extent i.
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Track 2: Was more appreciative of the positive aspects of it when it
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Track 2: first but like as time has gone by like no you're you're absolutely right it's
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Track 2: impossible to look away from those things like the shoehorning of martin freeman's
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Track 2: car martin freeman's character represents basically everything that is wrong
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Track 2: in that movie and like the fact that like obviously like Disney as a corporation had,
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Track 2: you know, felt the need, like, you know,
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Track 2: It was required of them, basically, I guess, to make sure that it fits certain
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Track 2: things and it fit a certain narrative.
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Track 2: And that narrative is that, you know, actually imperialism is okay sometimes
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Track 2: if the right person does it.
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Track 3: It's like there are good white people who are cool and fun and they're allowed
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Track 3: into the cookout and their name is Martin Freeman.
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Track 3: And imperialism is cool sometimes. in that dream.
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Track 2: Not all CIA agents are bad. Like, no, actually they are. They're all bad.
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Track 1: Yeah. My first note that I wrote, so I wrote like notes by in a notebook when
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Track 1: I watched the movie, but then I wrote just like a couple down.
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Track 1: And the first one I wrote was, it could have been a real good story of anti-imperialism
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Track 1: and colonialism, but then it's undercut by the collaboration with the CIA.
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Track 1: And I think it's impossible.
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Track 1: I mean, I bet if you went through every single Marvel movie, they are...
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Track 1: The CIA or the FBI or the U.S.
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Track 1: Government or Avengers or S.H.I.E.L.D. or whatever code you want to give to
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Track 1: the good guys of America in a positive light.
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Track 1: They're never viewed in a negative way.
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Track 1: And in this one, you have, you know, the Wakanda as perhaps having this message
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Track 1: at the beginning of, you know, it's this place in Africa that's actually rich.
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Track 1: Like you think about all the exploitation of africa in the real world and you
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Track 1: know africa is rich it's just that america and the west steals this wealth from
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Track 1: them and like they could have this wealth but you know it's um it's okay it's
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Track 1: the cia and the u.s eventually gets to you know do a little little uh imperialism for a treat.
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Track 3: Yeah there was like kind of like the ghost of
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Track 3: the winter soldier movie is like hanging over
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Track 3: black panther the entire time i saw it the first time
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Track 3: where like they got away with doing way
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Track 3: more critical commentary than i think anyone would let kugler do so like winter
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Track 3: soldier was the closest they ever got to being like maybe government entities
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Track 3: aren't all like cool superhero adjacent people which yeah black panther was not allowed to do it.
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Track 2: Was still in the end the winter soldier it still was, it's just some bad apples.
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Track 2: The message still was, fundamentally, these systems are okay.
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Track 2: That was just some bad apples. There are some bad actors.
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Track 2: But overall, S.H.I.E.L.D. is fine. It's just there were some bad people.
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Track 2: Some bad people got in there.
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Track 1: I mean, I know we jumped right into the movie. Just-
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Track 1: very very briefly for maybe someone who
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Track 1: hasn't seen this since 2018 or like you're one of the few people
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Track 1: who hasn't seen this movie essentially they're
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Track 1: introducing you to the country
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Track 1: of wakanda as this place that has a metal
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Track 1: that's more rare and only until movie
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Track 1: number two is the only country in place that has vibranium
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Track 1: and it's enabling them to create technology that
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Track 1: is greater than anyone in the world and they're
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Track 1: able to put a shield around their country essentially so the
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Track 1: world thinks they're this poor african farming country
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Track 1: when in fact they're like the most technologically advanced country on earth
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Track 1: and we have the death of the king they're sort of the takeover or the the the
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Track 1: uh handing over to chadwick boseman as the black panther t'challa and through a sort of, you know,
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Track 1: a fighting, what's the term?
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Track 2: Challenge.
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Track 1: A challenging scenario where someone else in another one of the tribes can challenge,
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Track 1: and if they continue and they're victorious, then, you know, he becomes the king.
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Track 1: And really, yeah, I don't know, I feel like the first...
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Track 1: 30 minutes of the movie you could maybe still kind of see him being like this
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Track 1: is still has a decent enough message but i feel like it's quickly undercut by
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Track 1: once he becomes king and we learn,
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Track 1: i'll give one of like the quotes that i think kind of gives it away is we learn
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Track 1: a little bit later that the michael b jordan character is uh killmonger and
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Track 1: he is sort of eventually challenges him for the throne later on.
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Track 1: And what he wants to do is actually share this wealth or this technology with
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Track 1: all the revolutionary movements around the world to overthrow the colonizer,
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Track 1: which would be a good thing.
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Track 1: And one of the lines that T'Challa says in it that I think speaks to a lot of
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Track 1: this is he says, we could lose our way of life.
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Track 1: And he says this to his mother, I believe, when they're talking about the possibility of sharing this.
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Track 1: And to me, that's like the super liberal message that's under like undercuts
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Track 1: everything where god forbid we would like have socialism because like i might lose my way of life.
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Track 3: Yeah that's like the weird thing about the film
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Track 3: messaging wise because like because i don't
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Track 3: like hate this movie i know i sound like i hate this movie but
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Track 3: like i have a love-hate relationship with it where i love
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Track 3: that it is like firmly 100 like
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Track 3: afrofuturism and like it served
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Track 3: as like a very strong introduction to the concept
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Track 3: of afrofuturism there's like oh we're
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Track 3: showing like african diaspora people or black diaspora people like interacting
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Track 3: with technology in ways that are like seemingly incongruous and like we're interrogating
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Track 3: the relationship that group of people has had to technology in history and the
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Track 3: current time and into the future.
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Track 3: And like it did really interesting things where it's like interrogating the idea of like,
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Track 3: no, Africa actually is like this very advanced country that we just have historicized
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Track 3: and kind of like decided is like more, quote unquote,
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Track 3: savage and underdeveloped when in reality they have all of this cool stuff.
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Track 3: Stuff and just like interrogating that idea of
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Track 3: what we consider to be like a quote-unquote advanced
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Track 3: society in relation to blackness but
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Track 3: then it does weird things where they're like hyper traditionalistic
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Track 3: in like a weird patriarchal way it's like i don't i think you guys losing your
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Track 3: traditions would be kind of okay but i don't think you should have a king where
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Track 3: the person can just beat up your king and become a king and that's considered
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Track 3: like a cool way to rule your advanced country,
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Track 3: so it's like so thematically confused that way.
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Track 2: It really is like, it's such a, like, it's a both a forward thinking and like
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Track 2: wanting to like portray the, you know, the people in the culture and, you know,
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Track 2: and the country as being futuristic.
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Track 2: You know, like you said, it's Afrofuturist, which is, it's, and it's awesome
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Track 2: the way they present it, the aesthetics,
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Track 2: the, the, the, the seamlessness, which that he really does present very traditional, you know, um,
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Track 2: well, the culture, you know, the dance and costume, costume,
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Track 2: but like traditional attire with that futuristic stuff at the same time is beautiful.
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Track 2: Full but at the same time it's like i'm like i don't mean to slight ryan coogler but like.
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Track 2: It's i feel like it's still got that like and i
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Track 2: don't know whether it was his decision or whether it was somebody else or
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Track 2: whether it was taken from the comic because i never really read black panther
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Track 2: i wasn't like a marvel i'm not a huge marvel fan that like
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Track 2: the western thing it's like you know what african country
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Track 2: is like yeah you know what they can get as far advanced they're
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Track 2: still gonna they're still gonna resort to you know what it's it's
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Track 2: a king and one guy could beat up the other guy and became the king it
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Track 2: still feels so like i mean really i mean for black
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Track 2: people like it feels racist and it feels backwards
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Track 2: and like paternalistic in its like presentation it's like look at look these
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Track 2: people no matter how no matter how far advanced they're still gonna beat each
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Track 2: other up and it just it takes away from like any it's like two steps forward ten steps back it.
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Track 3: Every time it's like matriarchal but also
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Track 3: it's not and it's super advanced but also
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Track 3: they still use spears for combat and
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Track 3: it's like it's very strange where it's like i get what you're trying to do but
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Track 3: it always seems to go back to like what you were saying where like it's through
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Track 3: the gaze of what a white person in America thinks Africa is.
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Track 2: Yeah.
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Track 3: And then they're just that, but also they're cyberpunk now.
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Track 3: And like, I really wish it was what black people or what Africans think cyberpunk is.
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Track 2: Yeah, totally.
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Track 1: To me, that's the result of, I think, if Coogler could make this movie outside
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Track 1: of Marvel and Disney, I think it would want a different film.
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Track 1: But Disney has to sell their movies to the whitest audience.
21:03
Track 1: Not the whitest, also the whitest, but also the whitest, right, across the world.
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Track 1: So the way they have to create these movies is palatable to everyone,
21:10
Track 1: and I think it suffers from that.
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Track 1: Like, there's another line that I think is also, like, an indictment of it is
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Track 1: when we learn, like, what the king had done, you know, as to,
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Track 1: you know, killing his own brother back in the United States,
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Track 1: I think he says it's, or someone says it, it's hard for a good man to be king.
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Track 1: And, like, I feel like the idea of, like, oh the king not being actually a good
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Track 1: person and all of the things again sort of undercuts the message where Wakanda
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Track 1: is trying to be this new just place but um,
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Track 1: I'm not sure where I was going with that exactly. I don't know.
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Track 1: It's, again, undercutting what it's trying to be.
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Track 1: And I like to try and not blame Ryan Coogler directly. I think he made what
21:52
Track 1: he was able to. He did what he could.
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Track 3: Yeah, like, you know, Ryan Coogler is anti-colonialism because he made Sinners
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Track 3: and he had way more creative control over that one.
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Track 3: So, like, I'm not blaming him as a writer or director.
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Track 3: I just think he was on a leash with the studio where, like, I'm glad he is making
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Track 3: his own stuff now because that being the biggest budget Ryan Coogler joints
22:20
Track 3: people can get would be very unfortunate. Yeah.
22:23
Track 3: But I do think it is like one of the better films that you could watch from Marvel still.
22:31
Track 3: So it's one of those relative questions.
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Track 2: Totally. I mean, I feel like you can see the points of the movie as you're watching it.
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Track 2: You can actually pick out the parts where there has been studio oversight.
22:48
Track 2: Like you can if you go through this movie you can you could highlight scenes
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Track 2: and be like oh this was a studio note this was a studio note this was this is
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Track 2: coogler this is coogler like you know you could literally go through it and
23:03
Track 2: like point out like all the different points i feel like.
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Track 3: Yeah and i'm looking for a specific artist who i keep thinking of um oh yeah yumbi,
23:14
Track 3: so air biumby he's cameroonian have
23:17
Track 3: you guys heard of him before um not sure
23:20
Track 3: i know he's like a black modern artist
23:24
Track 3: who like delves into afrofuturism but
23:27
Track 3: he has like this whole like setup where
23:30
Track 3: he interrogates like modern culture as seen
23:33
Track 3: through like an african lens so he
23:35
Track 3: has like this entire like not performance but
23:39
Track 3: like this entire piece where it's traditional african garb
23:42
Track 3: but it looks like the scream mask from scream
23:45
Track 3: or like the prayer where it's
23:48
Track 3: just like no africans like still exist we're still interacting with
23:52
Track 3: modern culture we're like not stagnant in
23:54
Track 3: the past the way america views africa
23:58
Track 3: and i really just wish they had him as an artistic director for the movie i
24:03
Track 3: feel like that would be awesome because he does a lot of That Afrofuturist idea
24:08
Track 3: of like interrogating how the African diaspora is viewed like temporally and
24:14
Track 3: like how we do exist in the present day and we will exist in the future.
24:18
Track 3: And like we continue interacting with cultures that aren't our own,
24:22
Track 3: but like continue preserving our own culture as well.
24:26
Track 3: Which seems to be what this movie like on a good day is trying to get across
24:33
Track 3: but just is by a lot of stuff.
24:36
Track 2: Yeah that's what that's that seems to be the attempt which like which is why
24:41
Track 2: like i do think that this like it does deserve credit to some degree for those
24:45
Track 2: things like Because, I mean, let's be honest,
24:50
Track 2: mainstream-wise, this is the mainstream American audience.
24:59
Track 2: This is the opening to that.
25:02
Track 2: This is the opportunity, this was the opportunity for the mainstream American
25:08
Track 2: audience to be exposed to that.
25:10
Track 2: It was really the first time a mainstream American audience was exposed to those concepts.
25:18
Track 2: These people were not – people that –,
25:21
Track 2: prefer like you know the people that you
25:24
Track 2: know primarily view you know movies like
25:27
Track 2: the you know like marvel cinematic movies or you know like
25:30
Track 2: mainstream blockbuster movies like out like
25:33
Track 2: they're not going to be exposed to this
25:36
Track 2: elsewhere otherwise like it i do
25:39
Track 2: think that this deserves credit for that if
25:42
Track 2: nothing else it did open that
25:45
Track 2: open an audience up to those things now i
25:48
Track 2: don't have numbers on like how many people like went out to like you know really
25:52
Track 2: like engage with that after futurism but like it was more than before this i
25:57
Track 2: have to assume because it literally wasn't available to people outside of like
26:03
Track 2: people who made it a point to seek it out.
26:05
Track 3: Let.
26:06
Track 1: Me ask you do you know a lot about books and like in this kind of thing did
26:11
Track 1: you do was there an increase of those kind of books that explored those themes
26:17
Track 1: like in the years after this and is it at all possible that they were influenced
26:22
Track 1: by this i mean this is i don't know if there's like this isn't a scientific study.
26:26
Track 3: Yeah that's a good question actually there's been like a whole debate,
26:33
Track 3: like in like literature in general
26:36
Track 3: about like the difference between african futurism
26:40
Track 3: and afro futurism and then like afro-surrealism is
26:43
Track 3: also in there and i feel like the debate got
26:46
Track 3: a lot louder after black panther first came out because we have like a bunch
26:52
Track 3: of authors who are like pretty firmly writing african futurism where like it's
27:00
Track 3: set in africa and like based in like,
27:04
Track 3: traditionally african ideas and then
27:07
Track 3: we have people doing afrofuturism where it's much more like black
27:10
Track 3: american stuff yeah and we're like trying
27:13
Track 3: to figure out how those relate to each other in a lot of ways where like i feel
27:19
Track 3: like there's a lot of non-fiction that's come out since this movie that like
27:24
Track 3: goes more into afrofuturism more than anything which is super interesting because
27:29
Track 3: like when was the idea coined it was like the 90s i think.
27:32
Track 2: Uh i think so but it.
27:36
Track 3: Might insult the internet let's see.
27:38
Track 2: It is an interesting note that it is 1993.
27:43
Track 3: Yep 1993 where we're like just starting to get the idea and like i have not
27:52
Track 3: studied it as much as i want to I feel like there's a giant overlap between
27:56
Track 3: that and Black American people loving mech anime.
28:00
Track 2: Totally.
28:01
Track 3: And that just being a catalyst for Afrofuturism, at least in the States.
28:08
Track 3: Because so many Afrofuturist things that are coming out now are pretty much
28:13
Track 3: just mech anime. And I love it.
28:16
Track 2: There's actually a really awesome, and this is African Futurist.
28:21
Track 2: Um it is an rpg a complete it's a ttrpg setting um into the motherland but it's
28:28
Track 2: specifically is african futurist and it is like really awesome um it's not big mechs yeah.
28:38
Track 3: Like for what's it called like the black panther wakanda like mini series like
28:46
Track 3: that taps way more into like cyberpunk too.
28:50
Track 2: Ironheart, which is the spinoff of the second movie.
28:53
Track 3: Yes. So there's so much like interesting...
28:57
Track 3: Multicultural things going on with specifically afrofuturism
29:01
Track 3: where it's heavily inspired by international media
29:04
Track 3: and like there's a bunch of interesting stuff going
29:07
Track 3: on that i don't think would be talked about as much had
29:10
Track 3: this movie not come out so i do appreciate this
29:13
Track 3: movie for like starting that conversation like nobody's
29:17
Track 3: gonna be like getting an intro to afrofuturism by
29:21
Track 3: watching like crumbs or like jesus
29:24
Track 3: shows you the way to the highway or whatever that movie's called and like those
29:28
Track 3: are both really cool movies they're not an intro to afro-fanturism though and
29:33
Track 3: i think this movie works as a good intro and like i've come to appreciate it
29:37
Track 3: in that way i just really hope people watch and read more after this one too totally.
29:43
Track 2: I do think it's an interesting i think it's interesting that you say that there
29:48
Track 2: was an uptick in non-fiction specifically about it which I find very interesting because that's still,
29:56
Track 2: it's siloing that concept from the mainstream public still. And it's like, is that deliberate?
30:04
Track 2: Like, is that a institutional, is that a cultural mechanism that is keeping
30:12
Track 2: it still siloed away from the general public by, it's like, okay, you know what?
30:17
Track 2: This is becoming popular, but we're, you know, through, you know,
30:21
Track 2: indirect, you know, like, you know, not like direct means, you know,
30:24
Track 2: I'm not trying to be like a conspiracy theorist. Um, but like, you know,
30:29
Track 2: Okay, we can play in this area, but you have to do it in this way because we
30:34
Track 2: don't want it to break out to the general public, really.
30:36
Track 2: I think it's a very interesting, like you said, it's mostly nonfiction.
30:42
Track 3: Yeah, it's a lot of people going back into the film and literary canon and trying
30:47
Track 3: to figure out when it first became more of a thing.
30:50
Track 3: And there's literally a short story by W.E.
30:54
Track 3: Du Bois that counts as Afrofuturism. So like it goes back a while.
30:59
Track 2: Yeah.
30:59
Track 3: So it's a lot of people just going back and like marveling at the fact that
31:04
Track 3: black diaspora writers have been doing speculative fiction, which I love because
31:09
Track 3: I'm a black speculative fiction writer.
31:11
Track 3: But it has been like kind of academically siloed where like it's still considered very niche.
31:18
Track 3: And I guess to get more into the conspiracy theory element of it,
31:25
Track 3: the entire point of Afrofuturism is affirming the fact that Black people not
31:29
Track 3: only exist into the future, but are relevant and important.
31:34
Track 3: And people don't like to hear that a lot of the time. So now...
31:40
Track 2: That's why Star Trek, Uhuru, that was a big thing. And why it was...
31:45
Track 2: For all of his flaws, and Gene Roddenberry had many fucking flaws,
31:52
Track 2: he made it a point, and Nishan Nicholson made it a point to be like,
31:58
Track 2: you know, black people, we are in the future.
32:00
Track 2: We are part of the future. and you know like i
32:03
Track 2: am a major character you know and it is important that this character
32:06
Track 2: be represented and be portrayed and be in
32:09
Track 2: this you know show in this way and you
32:12
Track 2: know even star trek which is huge you
32:15
Track 2: know and a cultural like touch zone still fights
32:20
Track 2: against that the fact like you said people don't
32:23
Track 2: like being like oh yeah black people will exist in the future too still
32:27
Track 2: fighting against that i mean there's a new star
32:30
Track 2: trek show right now and people are all up in arms because it's too quote unquote
32:35
Track 2: woke because you know one of the characters you know because too many of the
32:41
Track 2: characters like too many characters
32:42
Track 2: are black or not white you know it's yeah constant struggle yeah.
32:47
Track 3: It's it is a struggle i'm not at the point where i'm like an afro pessimist
32:53
Track 3: i think but like Like, I'm getting there at this point.
32:56
Track 2: I've never heard that term used.
33:00
Track 3: Essentially, the idea of it is that, like, the entire concept of being black
33:05
Track 3: is synonymous with being a slave and synonymous with being inhuman to other people.
33:11
Track 3: And, like, that's the whole idea. And, like, there's just no getting out of
33:15
Track 3: it and no getting better.
33:16
Track 2: That's the way it's always presented and everything.
33:18
Track 3: So it's a very snagged philosophy. And like Afrofuturism is in a lot of ways
33:24
Track 3: the exact antithesis of that,
33:27
Track 3: where it's like depicting blackness as something independent of how other people
33:32
Track 3: view it and like independent of how like people of other races interact with
33:36
Track 3: black diaspora people, which is, again,
33:39
Track 3: why Martin Freeman's character being in this movie is obnoxious, by the way.
33:44
Track 3: And then because like we're kind of running out of time, I think,
33:47
Track 3: but I think that would also be a good segue to talk about the weird cluster
33:51
Track 3: that is the plot of the second one where like, yes,
33:56
Track 3: black diasporic people against indigenous people for some reason.
34:01
Track 3: Like, I don't know what's going on with that plot.
34:04
Track 1: Yeah, to take it to go to the second one,
34:07
Track 1: I think that probably the three of us would agree mostly that the first one
34:12
Track 1: has its moments and has potential and did more for culture probably than it
34:20
Track 1: had all rights to do as a Marvel movie.
34:24
Track 1: But then we have the second one which
34:27
Track 1: unfortunately comes on the heels of chadwick boseman's
34:30
Track 1: death and having to rewrite the film and as
34:34
Track 1: bill said earlier it feels like everyone is like grieving him
34:37
Track 1: in the film and in real life you know
34:40
Track 1: and it maybe impacts their performance angela bassett is
34:43
Track 1: incredibly she got an oscar nomination for this
34:46
Track 1: i think is the only actor to be nominated from an mcu movie in an actor category
34:50
Track 1: but the plot is nonsensical and i struggle to make it through re-watching it
34:55
Track 1: honestly i feel like i had memory hold everything that happened and i'm watching
34:59
Track 1: i'm like wait what but there's still 35 more minutes left but why yeah.
35:04
Track 3: I like to also memory hold the plot of this one.
35:08
Track 2: I re-watched this movie while aquascaping an aquarium just so i had something else to do.
35:16
Track 3: It seems like because like on one hand it's very
35:19
Track 3: impressive that they were able to completely rewrite
35:23
Track 3: a movie without the main character in it and like
35:26
Track 3: have it be somewhat coherent and like it being kind
35:30
Track 3: of like this time capsule of like the casting crew
35:33
Track 3: like grieving like a very real person who is
35:36
Track 3: very important to them i think makes this
35:39
Track 3: movie like more relevant than
35:42
Track 3: what the movie is actually about because like
35:46
Track 3: i kind of feel weird that like chad with boseman's
35:49
Track 3: like memorial movie is one where black people and like aztec coded indigenous
35:54
Track 3: people are like fighting over resources whereas that plot is like so not connected
36:01
Track 3: to the grief plot or like or like the moving into the future plot it.
36:07
Track 2: Made me so angry like this
36:11
Track 2: movie i watched this movie and i it was
36:14
Track 2: like literally it was like they were like you know what let's have
36:16
Track 2: the brown people fight each other and i'm just like i'm going
36:20
Track 2: to explode with rage what is like that
36:23
Track 2: is you were like you know what we started with the french lady and the french
36:28
Track 2: deserve zero credit for anything ever and like she was the one who was like
36:35
Track 2: basically accusing wakanda of like invading like take attacking their ship and frankly France,
36:43
Track 2: any African nation should have the right to do whatever the.
36:46
Track 3: Fuck they.
36:46
Track 2: Want to anything of yours fuck all of you fuck France and then it turned into now the the the,
36:57
Track 2: Do they ever actually give Namor's people a name as a group of people?
37:02
Track 3: I think they do like once. It starts with like a team.
37:07
Track 2: They are not, they don't even like, they barely even like give them a,
37:13
Track 2: they are just, they're just the indigenous enemy.
37:18
Track 2: And it's like this along with Killmonger is in a long line of,
37:22
Track 2: of Marvel Disney movies, making a villain that is correct.
37:28
Track 2: They're right. Like Namor is right in terms of like his, like,
37:36
Track 2: Being like, you know, these people are bad and they're going to destroy things
37:40
Track 2: and they're going to kill my people.
37:42
Track 2: Just like Killmonger was fucking right. Like, and they were like,
37:46
Track 2: well, we have this villain who is clearly actually morally correct.
37:51
Track 2: So let's have them fight Wakanda. And it's like, why?
37:56
Track 2: Why would these people fight each other? It makes zero sense.
37:59
Track 2: There's other than the fact that disney wanted people
38:03
Track 2: to fight and they can't have them fight france which is the enemy that they
38:08
Track 2: should have been fucking fighting or america better they were just fighting
38:13
Track 2: yeah like if they had just fought the people the imperialists doing the shit
38:20
Track 2: that would have made sense what.
38:21
Track 1: This almost feels like to me is this weird version of what American sort of
38:28
Track 1: elite capitalist class wants to have happen.
38:31
Track 1: They want culture wars to be fought between people who are actually the enemy.
38:37
Track 1: They actually have common ground with the oppressor, and yet they're stuck fighting
38:42
Track 1: each other because, you know, they've convinced them of such.
38:47
Track 1: But it does that without acknowledging that in any way.
38:52
Track 3: That's.
38:52
Track 1: What makes me also.
38:53
Track 3: They have this like obsession that was
38:56
Track 3: like hinted at in the first movie and then
38:58
Track 3: like expanded on in the second one to
39:02
Track 3: a giant extent of like depicting wakanda as a villainous nation and i don't
39:10
Track 3: understand their reasoning really like i get the idea of like we don't want
39:14
Track 3: it to be like this utopian society like we want it to be a real place with like
39:18
Track 3: flaws that has to evolve with the times.
39:22
Track 3: They, for some reason, are constantly pitting Wakanda against people where Wakanda
39:27
Track 3: is the one in the wrong doing the bad thing, like being colonialist,
39:32
Track 3: essentially, which is a weird thing to do.
39:36
Track 2: Yeah, exactly.
39:37
Track 3: That they're an isolationist colony that exists because they didn't want to be colonized.
39:45
Track 2: It's the portraying the DPRK as the villain, as the aggressor and things.
39:51
Track 2: It's like they're no they're not like like.
39:56
Track 3: It just like reminds me of every they're literally minding their own business
39:59
Track 3: it reminds me of like every harry potter adaptation where like they decide to
40:04
Track 3: make people in slytherin like black it's like that's like the racist group like
40:08
Track 3: what are you doing it's like why are we making wakanda the stand-in for colonialist.
40:15
Track 2: Here in.
40:15
Track 3: Like every conflict.
40:16
Track 2: Like you could tell such an
40:19
Track 2: interesting story and kugler is clearly
40:23
Track 2: a director with the ability but
40:26
Track 2: not only just the ability but the the the ideological like
40:30
Track 2: mindset to tell that story like he could tell that story clearly and yet because
40:37
Track 2: this is a disney movie because this is a marvel movie it's impossible are either
40:42
Track 2: of you familiar with the comics code authority all right so you will have to remind.
40:47
Track 3: Me of the details but i know the gist.
40:49
Track 2: Okay so back in the day when like you know um comics were you know like 25 cents
40:57
Track 2: or less um there was a major like legal showdown basically and it was about how like comics are like.
41:08
Track 2: Tainting the youth and so part
41:11
Track 2: of the comic code authority like to be um certified as
41:15
Track 2: you know like passing the code like you know there were things you
41:18
Track 2: couldn't do in the stories so you
41:21
Track 2: couldn't it's very similar to the same
41:24
Track 2: code that was in the movies where it was like if a
41:27
Track 2: cop is bad you can't show he
41:30
Track 2: has to be just the only bad one um you
41:34
Track 2: can't like disrespect the police you can't
41:37
Track 2: disrespect the military you can't portray this
41:40
Track 2: particular kind of violence you can't portray this that and
41:43
Track 2: the other thing and over time eventually comics
41:46
Track 2: left that behind but in a lot of ways it feels like the disney marvel movies
41:51
Track 2: like are still beholden to that it's like you can't portray america as the bad
41:57
Track 2: guy you can't portray any western nation as the bad guy it's like you know
42:03
Track 2: Googler tries his very hardest at the very beginning to paint and make it clear,
42:07
Track 2: actually, France is the bad guy here.
42:10
Track 2: They sent mercenaries, and it's like, oh, we've got to backtrack that.
42:15
Track 2: We've got to backtrack that and go all the way back. And even though the American
42:21
Track 2: scientists are doing what they say they weren't doing, and they're infringing upon these things.
42:28
Track 2: Actually, the conflict is now between Wakanda and Namor and his people.
42:34
Track 2: Because we can't portray any of these people in a negative light. It's just not allowed.
42:40
Track 1: But from what I understand, the plot development for this film was different
42:46
Track 1: before the passing of Jack McBoseman.
42:51
Track 1: Now, what I wonder is, was this still kind of like the crux of it?
42:55
Track 1: Like, was there still going to be this showdown?
42:57
Track 1: The difference would have been that he's king during this and like they're not
43:00
Track 1: having that sort of mourning aspect and it's still the same.
43:05
Track 1: Even if that's true, they're collaborating even more deeply with Martin Freeman
43:10
Track 1: and the CIA, where he's giving them like material information.
43:14
Track 1: Albeit, you're meant to sort of be like, well, he's actually like helping them.
43:21
Track 1: But another insanity aspect of this, they have this entire fight on this giant
43:26
Track 1: sort of ship in the ocean near the end.
43:29
Track 1: And yet the U.S. government like doesn't know about it.
43:32
Track 2: It's so like, I'm sorry. It's so non-sequitur. It's just like, what are we doing?
43:37
Track 1: That part of the movie, I'm just like, why? What? What's going on here?
43:42
Track 3: Yeah, like the entire, literally the entire conflict in that second movie just
43:47
Track 3: feels like they had the old scripts and they didn't want to trash it entirely.
43:53
Track 3: So they just like slipped those scenes in there just like with minimal to no
43:58
Track 3: context because they like hired the stunt choreographer already or something.
44:06
Track 1: I mean, maybe.
44:12
Track 2: The only thing I will say about this movie, the only positive thing I will say
44:16
Track 2: about this movie, is that I do think that the costuming and the design of Namor
44:21
Track 2: is absolutely gorgeous.
44:25
Track 2: Like, absolutely incredible.
44:27
Track 3: Yeah, when I saw, like, the sneak peek character, like, photo thing for Namor,
44:33
Track 3: I was like, yes. Hell yes, that one.
44:35
Track 2: So like i.
44:36
Track 3: Was excited going into the second movie because i thought like oh they're gonna
44:40
Track 3: take what was good and it's gonna be better now and that didn't happen.
44:44
Track 2: No they did the opposite that's the thing it's so it's so they took all the
44:51
Track 2: bad then turned it up to 11 we even have more we have more scenes in this of
44:57
Track 2: just straight up american government like black ops shenanigans Like,
45:03
Track 2: I don't want, I don't care.
45:05
Track 2: I don't. Martin Freeman should not be in these movies. I should not see a single, unless he's,
45:14
Track 2: Unless he's like a fucking villain, I shouldn't see a single fucking white person.
45:19
Track 2: That's straight up. That's my feeling on it.
45:22
Track 3: Yeah, like the first movie, like they had like the Afrikaner dude who was definitely
45:28
Track 3: alive during apartheid.
45:30
Track 2: Yeah.
45:30
Track 3: Who could have just been the bad guy.
45:33
Track 1: Yeah. I mean, the thing that makes me sad too is they give the backstory of
45:39
Track 1: their people and how they were created.
45:41
Track 1: And how or again kind of kind of created and
45:44
Track 1: them killing their oppressors you
45:47
Track 1: know that were making them into slaves and like
45:51
Track 1: that's good and then it just sort of it doesn't explore that
45:54
Track 1: in any deeper way and then by them fighting
45:57
Track 1: wakanda it like undermines that message
46:00
Track 1: even further and makes me wonder like why even tell us that like the whole backstory
46:07
Track 1: could have been interesting but in the way it just felt like what we need to
46:11
Track 1: add like some more you need to like have some interest in caring for them but
46:15
Track 1: then you almost you're kind of hypocrites i don't know yeah i mean yes and.
46:20
Track 3: Like it's a lot of they should have been non-violent.
46:23
Track 1: Completely like the the just you
46:26
Track 1: know and then when they go to their underwater
46:30
Track 1: place and like understand what they
46:33
Track 1: also have to lose like you're like oh well maybe they can
46:36
Track 1: just form an alliance but then it just sort of ends up being like doing what
46:40
Track 1: american imperialism would do is you know we're just gonna capture back our
46:45
Track 1: our you know our queen and not worry about the cost and just like we'll fight
46:49
Track 1: that war later which is exactly what america would do in that situation which.
46:54
Track 3: Like again like why are we making the like,
46:57
Track 3: marooned black colony that escaped colonization america like why are we doing yeah why why.
47:04
Track 2: Are we doing this i this movie makes me so mad like.
47:09
Track 3: Yeah it like it highlights what i think is like a bigger issue in general that
47:16
Track 3: i keep running into as someone who like works in film where it's like I don't
47:22
Track 3: even know if I want people to make these movies at this point,
47:27
Track 3: if they're going to be this thematically incoherent.
47:31
Track 3: It's just like, I give the first movie a pass, right? Oh, it's a good intro.
47:34
Track 2: Yeah.
47:35
Track 3: But you can only be a good intro one time. Like, you have to do more after that.
47:41
Track 1: Will it make you mad if I told you that Ryan Coogler is apparently in development of the third movie?
47:47
Track 3: Like, I know he is.
47:48
Track 1: I didn't know that until like an hour ago.
47:50
Track 2: I did not know that. You got to be kidding me. But like.
47:54
Track 3: Yeah, something.
47:55
Track 1: And that makes me sad because I'm like, you could make sinners.
47:59
Track 2: Like, I have to assume he's just like, I have to assume he's just like, you know what?
48:05
Track 2: If I make this movie, I will get paid. It's a payday. And then I can go make,
48:11
Track 2: you know, my next Sinners.
48:12
Track 2: And I don't mean a sequel to Sinners. I mean, like, you know.
48:15
Track 1: I think that's reasonable.
48:16
Track 2: I mean, another, like, independent movie that he doesn't have to answer to any before. Like, it's.
48:23
Track 3: Yeah, I forget. Like, was Sinners produced by his own production company?
48:28
Track 3: I forget. He has his own production company now. I don't know if that was pre
48:32
Track 3: or post his movie coming out.
48:34
Track 2: Production company is proximity media yep it's
48:38
Track 2: his it's his it was produced by his it was his
48:41
Track 2: production company it was distributed by warner
48:44
Track 2: brothers but it was it was the production company is cuckoo's
48:47
Track 2: production company so yeah i mean like honestly like right i've that's the only
48:51
Track 2: thing this is the only thing that like i can square this that is like heyday
48:56
Track 2: next thing i can put in i can just put more money into proximity media and make
49:00
Track 2: another movie like that like that's it that that's It's the only way I square this in my brain.
49:05
Track 3: And I'm just generally so ambivalent about the Marvel Cinematic Universe at
49:12
Track 3: this point, because I don't want to be one of those people who shits on superhero movies as a concept,
49:20
Track 3: because I don't think all of them are bad.
49:23
Track 3: I just think it's a very oversaturated market.
49:27
Track 3: And I'm very annoyed by people who think the Marvel movies started getting bad
49:33
Track 3: the second they started letting like women in black and brown people direct them.
49:39
Track 3: So I don't want to be one of those people who was like, this is the beginning
49:43
Track 3: of the end of Marvel or anything, but it kind of was.
49:47
Track 2: I think you are actually correct. And why, and this goes back to being a fan of comics.
49:54
Track 2: Like I've stopped, I stopped reading comics a long time ago.
49:57
Track 2: And even before I stopped reading comics, I stopped reading mainstream superhero comics.
50:02
Track 2: And one of the reasons why is the reason I think that the Marvel movies do fail.
50:08
Track 2: And that is the constant focus
50:11
Track 2: on quote unquote events and how
50:15
Track 2: everything ties into everything else where you can't just watch or read one
50:20
Track 2: book without feeling obligated to watch or read 10 other things you because
50:29
Track 2: and black panther really is the start of that starting with,
50:34
Track 2: shuri right in the beginning oh now i have to take care of another white boy
50:38
Track 2: and it's like Like that is a nod to winter soldier.
50:42
Track 2: And then from that, like there's other little things that are like sprinkled in those movies.
50:48
Track 2: It's like, if you didn't watch 10 other movies, you won't know what this means.
50:54
Track 2: And that's what these movies have become. They're just, every movie is a setup for the next movie.
50:59
Track 2: That's all it is. I want to just watch a movie. Yeah.
51:04
Track 3: And I am cynical about like why Black Panther was like kind of the pinnacle
51:10
Track 3: of that happening, which is they did not trust Black Panther to like stay on
51:13
Track 3: its own without having two million Easter eggs to other things in it.
51:17
Track 2: Yeah.
51:17
Track 3: Which just goes back to like, I kind of just don't want Disney and Marvel to
51:21
Track 3: touch black media at this point.
51:24
Track 3: But I know it's culturally important. I know giving black creatives money is
51:29
Track 3: important, but also them as producers is not good.
51:34
Track 1: And I think that it's used maybe in a way of like the black directors and women
51:41
Track 1: directors making these.
51:42
Track 1: They're just being scapegoated as the reason why Marvel is failing.
51:48
Track 1: And I think it's more than also just simply the fatigue of what you're talking
51:53
Track 1: about, Bill. So I've mentioned this book before that I'm reading now.
51:56
Track 1: It's called The Extended Universe.
51:57
Track 1: And it talks about sort of how Disney has basically ruined movies and taken over the world.
52:04
Track 1: And it's because of their IP having to stretch through every kind of media, comics, books, movies.
52:10
Track 1: And so you have to watch and be part of the entire universe to understand everything.
52:14
Track 1: And people just got tired of that except for like a very small subset of people
52:19
Track 1: who are obsessed no matter what and they're the loudest they're going to complain
52:22
Track 1: about everyone oh it's a it's woke is all this stuff and so I want those female
52:28
Track 1: directors and those black directors and those other directors just,
52:31
Track 1: Make other projects if you can. I mean, look, it's hard to make movies.
52:36
Track 1: It's hard to get budgets and all of these things. But I just want them to make
52:40
Track 1: media that's, you know, that they want to make and not have to fit into the Marvel box.
52:46
Track 3: Yeah, it ironically reminds me of, like, the exploitation era of movies in, like, the 70s.
52:53
Track 2: Yeah.
52:53
Track 3: Where, like, so many marginalized directors, like, got their first feature or
52:58
Track 3: their second feature making an exploitation movie.
53:00
Track 3: And then they went on to make like other things but like
53:03
Track 3: that was their intro to like actually getting a budget and like
53:07
Track 3: actually like getting something for like
53:10
Track 3: their director reel and everything and i just feel like
53:13
Track 3: so many directors are treating like cinematic
53:17
Track 3: marvel cinematic universe movies like that now
53:20
Track 3: i'm going to direct this movie and then
53:24
Track 3: i'm gonna go and do something else like
53:27
Track 3: chloe zau did that with like was it the marvels yeah and she won an oscar and
53:34
Track 3: it's probably going to win another oscar so it's a good like talent incubator
53:40
Track 3: and like i wish they would let the talent they're incubating that's fair do more stuff but.
53:46
Track 2: At the same time this argument is still the same argument about how representation
53:52
Track 2: within a system of oppression does not solve that oppression.
53:57
Track 2: Like that, this is still that we're still at that point. The like, because yes, they may,
54:06
Track 2: They may be able to go on and make their own,
54:09
Track 2: but like the, there's this system is still being fed through that exploitation
54:15
Track 2: and oppression and their work later on is still never capable of reaching the heights.
54:23
Track 2: It should because of the existing system, which is reinforced by their contributions to it in a way.
54:34
Track 2: Like, you're feeding the beast that is going to eat you in the end.
54:40
Track 2: And yes, you may get something out of it, but in the end, you know,
54:44
Track 2: representation does not solve oppression, right?
54:47
Track 2: Representation is important and it's valuable, but it does not solve oppression.
54:51
Track 2: It does not do that. And we can see that through any number of,
54:56
Track 2: you know, elected political figures and so on and so forth, you know,
54:59
Track 2: because that's exactly where we are.
55:01
Track 3: And that is like the tough thing about it, because like you can tell Ryan Coogler
55:05
Track 3: knows that that's the case.
55:08
Track 3: Because he had that deal with sinners where he's like, I'm going to own this
55:13
Track 3: movie and like you guys are not going to own this movie.
55:16
Track 3: Where, like, he clearly has some idea in his head about, like,
55:21
Track 3: marginalized people being able to, like, own and have authority over the stories they're telling.
55:26
Track 3: And, like, not have it be filtered through, like, a system or a structure that
55:32
Track 3: is, like, inherently othering them.
55:34
Track 3: Like, he gets that. And, like, I just feel bad.
55:37
Track 2: But then he went, I know he's doing Black Panther 3.
55:39
Track 3: I just feel like pretentious being like, I feel bad for millionaire director Ryan.
55:46
Track 2: Yeah.
55:48
Track 3: But I kind of just do feel bad where I feel like he's just like between a rock
55:54
Track 3: and a hard place at this point where like.
55:57
Track 2: Yeah, we all are.
56:01
Track 2: Have you heard it here first? Brianna Cox feels bad for Ryan Coogler,
56:06
Track 2: millionaire director, Oscar, Oscar winner.
56:13
Track 2: I do think, I do think that one thing that needs to be said about the first
56:20
Track 2: movie is that it is literally the story of an insurgent taking over a country.
56:30
Track 2: Or not an insurgent, but like a revolutionary taking over a country and then
56:34
Track 2: the CIA funding and supporting the, the, uh,
56:42
Track 2: preferable group to take over instead or like, or maintain power.
56:47
Track 2: Um, it is literally beat for beat. Like it is basically the Taliban.
56:52
Track 2: Like that's what it is. I mean, it's, it's Afghanistan and Taliban.
56:57
Track 2: That's what it is. They, they, they funded of the Mujahideen and they were like,
57:01
Track 2: you take over the socialist government.
57:03
Track 2: Like that's a revolutionary took over. The CIA was like, no,
57:06
Track 2: no, no, no, no, no, no, no, not happening.
57:09
Track 2: But like, again, like, just like you said, Brianna, it's about like the second movie.
57:15
Track 2: It's like, yeah, these things are there, but like, they're never like explicitly pointed out.
57:19
Track 2: So it gets lost. And it's the same thing. It's like, if you know these things,
57:23
Track 2: you can see all this in this,
57:26
Track 2: but if you don't, none of these points or lessons are being learned by anyone
57:31
Track 2: unless you're already a Marxist. Like, yeah.
57:37
Track 3: Yeah, that's like an issue I have with the Marvel Universe in general,
57:41
Track 3: where it ostensibly takes place in the real world.
57:45
Track 2: Yep.
57:46
Track 3: They're just in New York, and they're in London, and they're in Seoul.
57:51
Track 3: So the history of these places happened, presumably.
57:55
Track 3: So again, they had an Afrikaner who was alive during apartheid and probably
58:00
Track 3: did a genocide be the secondary bad guy in the first bloodbath.
58:05
Track 2: The secondary bad guy, the secondary bad guy, the main bad guy being a black guy.
58:12
Track 3: And like they never touch on that. They never touch on that.
58:15
Track 3: Like he's from a place that had apartheid and he probably did a genocide.
58:20
Track 3: They never touch on the CIA's weird relationship with Africa in general and
58:26
Track 3: the black diaspora in America specifically.
58:29
Track 3: They kind of just like have it
58:32
Track 3: exist in this world where like real
58:35
Track 3: problems happen but they don't acknowledge it
58:38
Track 3: because they still want to do like cool speculative fiction
58:42
Track 3: stuff but like you can't have cool
58:45
Track 3: speculative fiction stuff in an
58:48
Track 3: african country with an insurgent group trying to take it
58:50
Track 3: over and not reference african history
58:54
Track 3: yeah which they're trying very hard not to
58:56
Track 3: do which i know like people do
59:00
Track 3: not like dc and they don't like those movies
59:03
Track 3: but they do not have that problem because that's a
59:06
Track 3: fake universe that's totally true that's totally true
59:09
Track 3: yeah it's very distracting in black panther specifically but in winter soldier
59:16
Track 3: it's also very distracting where it's like hmm so soviet russia huh what was
59:23
Track 3: going on what was happening like every time they try to tackle,
59:29
Track 3: any kind of world event it becomes very confusing immediately yeah.
59:34
Track 2: Yeah it's it's and i mean and as we've
59:37
Track 2: pointed out like you know as these are products of a major multi you know an
59:43
Track 2: international conglomerate like they're not going to want to they're not going
59:47
Track 2: to address any of those things because addressing any of those things inevitably
59:51
Track 2: points out that they are actually the villain Like,
59:56
Track 2: you can't.
59:57
Track 2: Like, they cannot do it. It's impossible.
1:00:00
Track 3: I just want to rattle off a bunch of other Afrofuturist things that would be cool to watch.
1:00:08
Track 2: Yes, please.
1:00:09
Track 3: If you like Black Panther aesthetically and you want more stuff.
1:00:13
Track 1: Please do.
1:00:14
Track 3: But let's see. I think the most successful one is probably Poomsie,
1:00:18
Track 3: which is like a 20-minute short film that's just on YouTube and you can watch it whenever.
1:00:24
Track 3: It's like a cool, like dystopian short film.
1:00:28
Track 3: Then there's Spaces, The Place, which lots of people point to is like one of
1:00:33
Track 3: the first like Afrofuturist, like audiovisual things.
1:00:38
Track 3: Neptune Frost is one. I think Beast of the Southern Wild is one.
1:00:43
Track 3: People argue with me. I think it counts.
1:00:46
Track 2: Now, why do people argue with you on that?
1:00:49
Track 3: Yeah, because it's very fantasy adjacent, and there's a whole argument as to
1:00:54
Track 3: whether or not fantasy counts as sci-fi enough to be Afrofuturism.
1:00:59
Track 3: It doesn't. But it's like a dystopia, so I don't count.
1:01:01
Track 2: As a sci-fi and fantasy person, no, they're separate things. I'm sorry, Brianna.
1:01:09
Track 3: It's like a weird combination of magic realism and fantasy in dystopian ways.
1:01:17
Track 3: Climate apocalypse stuff so i think it counts all right you know what no.
1:01:21
Track 2: You know what you got me on board okay so this is really this is like star wars
1:01:26
Track 2: it's a combination of it's it's more fantasy science fiction it's a science fantasy.
1:01:31
Track 3: Yeah kind of actually all right so i'm on board,
1:01:35
Track 3: i'm.
1:01:36
Track 2: On board i'm on board it is afrofuturist at that point okay we got both we got both that's fine.
1:01:40
Track 3: But yeah that's that's the one on the edge the other ones are much
1:01:43
Track 3: more actually that spider verse definitely counts as
1:01:46
Track 3: afrofuturism by the way just watch spider verse for
1:01:49
Track 3: your afrofuturists like superheroes stuff
1:01:53
Track 3: and then jesus shows you the way to the highway was
1:01:56
Track 3: the one i referenced before that is a fun movie and then what's our last one
1:02:01
Track 3: there's naked reality which is a french movie so go into that knowing it's a
1:02:07
Track 3: pretentious french movie but it's also very cool but yeah Yeah, there is a bunch of...
1:02:13
Track 1: We need to put the whole list of this stuff in the show notes.
1:02:15
Track 2: Yeah, if you could, you know, make sure you send this over, as well as the artist
1:02:19
Track 2: you mentioned earlier, send the name so we can put this in the show notes so
1:02:24
Track 2: people can check it all out.
1:02:26
Track 2: I will put in the show notes with links so people can check it all out.
1:02:30
Track 2: Because definitely, people definitely should. Even French stuff.
1:02:35
Track 3: There's one more that I am racking my brain that has fire in the name.
1:02:40
Track 3: I know it has flames in the name, but born in flames.
1:02:44
Track 3: I'm pretty sure it's called. I'm going to Google it to make sure.
1:02:48
Track 3: Yes. Born in flames, 1983.
1:02:52
Track 3: It's like this really cool feminist science fiction thing.
1:02:56
Track 3: It is badass. And I love that movie. And I always forget what it's called for some reason.
1:03:01
Track 2: Awesome. We will make sure that those are in there.
1:03:04
Track 1: No, Lizzie Borden. Is that the one you're talking about?
1:03:06
Track 2: It's awesome. Yeah. We'll make sure that's all the show notes.
1:03:09
Track 2: People could check all that out.
1:03:11
Track 2: Um, is there anything else anybody wants to add on for our discussion on black Panther one and two?
1:03:19
Track 3: I mean, I guess just summary. I don't hate the first movie.
1:03:24
Track 3: I think you should watch it for context if you're going to get into Afrofuturism
1:03:30
Track 3: stuff and you can skip the second movie probably.
1:03:33
Track 2: Yes you know if you can you know
1:03:36
Track 2: if you can find some really awesome like just
1:03:39
Track 2: design stills or concept stills from the second movie check those out the the
1:03:44
Track 2: costume designing absolutely gorgeous uh i you know i the costume design absolutely
1:03:50
Track 2: gorgeous check check out the art concept other than that you should skip the
1:03:55
Track 2: skip the second one skip it.
1:03:57
Track 1: What wait wait what.
1:03:59
Track 2: There isn't a second We're not playing that game.
1:04:01
Track 1: I don't know what you're talking about.
1:04:02
Track 3: Oh, thank God. That's good.
1:04:03
Track 2: I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. People do that about Pacific Rim,
1:04:06
Track 2: too, and it denotes the crap out of me.
1:04:08
Track 1: But I agree with all those thoughts.
1:04:10
Track 2: Before we head off, Brianna, you want to plug anything? I mean,
1:04:13
Track 2: I know what you want to plug. Plug your book.
1:04:16
Track 3: Yeah, sure. So I have a horror novel that is out for pre-order now.
1:04:23
Track 3: If you want the e-book or the paperback, the audio book is coming out probably
1:04:28
Track 3: on the release date on March 20th, if you prefer audio books.
1:04:33
Track 3: But it's a cool, fun, black horror book about cannibalism and vampires, and you should read it.
1:04:41
Track 2: What's the name?
1:04:42
Track 3: Oh, yeah. I totally forgot to say the name. So it was called...
1:04:48
Track 3: And you can look up more about that on my website. lianaincoxwriter.com,
1:04:55
Track 3: So actual information that will be helpful.
1:04:58
Track 2: That will be in the show notes. The link to Brianna's site where you can pre-order
1:05:02
Track 2: the book will be in the show notes.
1:05:04
Track 2: So please check out the show notes so you can pre-order her book.
1:05:08
Track 2: You should do that. You out there in listener land.
1:05:11
Track 2: Pre-order Indigent by Brianna Cox, our good friend and awesome guest.
1:05:17
Track 3: Yeah. If you get the paperback pre-ordered, it will come with swag and it's
1:05:23
Track 3: cool looking. I just got it in the mail.
1:05:25
Track 3: So if you want too much merch, you should get the paperback.
1:05:29
Track 1: Yes, you should definitely check that out. And Brian, of course,
1:05:32
Track 1: always great to have you on Left of Projector.
1:05:35
Track 1: You'll listen and find this on leftofprojector.com, wherever you find your podcasts.
1:05:41
Track 1: Of course, wherever you're listening right now, you can like and subscribe.
1:05:45
Track 1: And check out Brianna's other work. And we'll catch you next time.