Latest / Brands, Beats & Bytes / Album 7 Track 22 - Crafting Content for the World w/Shaheen Samavati

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Album 7 Track 22 - Crafting Content for the World w/Shaheen Samavati · Brands, Beats & Bytes

• DC: Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds, Brand Nerds back at you with another Brands, Beats and Bytes podcast. Larry, we are blessed. I don't know how we get some of the guests that we get. I don't know why people listen to us in over 100 countries. Today, Brand Nerds, we have one of those folks from one of those 100 countries coming at you, and our guest happens to be from a place. Where Larry's very luxurious. Vikings Cruise. Vikings Cruise brand nurse. I've never been on the Vikings Cruise. Okay. Brand Nerds, I wanna let you know I've been in a canoe before, but I've not been on the Viking Cruises. It stopped in this country where our guest is from. And, uh, our guest today, brand nerds, has taken a, uh, circuitous route to entrepreneurship. But before we get to that, I've gotta talk about a gift and a curse. The gift is that I wish that I was coming up in the marketing game, uh, that there was a resource like Brands, Beats and Bytes, so I could hear folks like our next guest talk about how she made her way to entrepreneurship. That's the gift. The curse is that I am from the great state of Michigan. I grew up in Detroit. I am an avid, avid, Michigan Wolverines fan. This next guest did not attend the University of Michigan. Our guest attended The Ohio State University, which I know you'll get into later, which makes her an official Buckeye, which also makes this podcast problematic for me. So this is the curse that I'm gonna have to deal with throughout the podcast, but I, I think I can make it through it. Larry, I think I can make it through it because our next guest is so dope and intelligent. Lt, can you tell the people who we are just blessed to have in the house with us today? LT: Yes, DC And, uh, we have Shaheen Samavati in the house today. Welcome, Shaheen. Shaheen Samavati: Thanks for having me. LT: Uh, Shaheen, don't be intimidated by his, uh. His Michigan stuff. He, what he neglected to tell you too is that his fiance also attended The Ohio State University. Ashley is a pro graduate, so he's talking a lot of junk and he, oh, we're gonna get into Brand Nerds, We are coming to you today. DC: Oh, wait a minute, Larry. Wait, wait a second now. LT: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. DC: I want you to know that I remembered my fiance, but I have selectively decided not to remember the fact that she went to the Ohio State University. This is not a coincidence. Okay. LT: Anyway, with that said, let's get into, uh, Brand Nerds where we are. Coming to you today with Shaheen. Shaheen is right now leading Vera content, a multilingual content marketing agency that helps global brands succeed by localizing their marketing effort efforts across diverse markets. This is big time important for 2025 as we are also going into 2026. Now let's give you Shaheen super cool background for how she has climbed the ladder to run this great platform. Shaheen attends, as we've already mentioned, college stateside at the Ohio State University, earning her undergrad degree in journalism and political science in college. Shaheen is also an RA and President of the Society, of Professional journalist student chapter, and in her last summer before graduation becomes an intern with the Cleveland Plain Dealer, the largest newspaper in the state of Ohio. This in internship goes exceedingly well and after Shaheen graduates the Cleveland Plain Dealer, hires Shaheen to be a business reporter. In this role, Shaheen has the great opportunity to interview executives at exciting and growing companies while covering breaking news in some of the region's most important companies, and working on enterprise pieces, pieces, tying global economic trends into a local context. That's important as we keep going with here. Also, as one of the youngest members of the team, she's often chosen to work on cutting edge projects, such as hosting live, interactive video interviews on trending to topics, and providing live coverage of events on both their website and social media channels. All of this interesting work sparked Shaheen's interest in entrepreneurship and eventually leads her to go earn her MBA at the IE Business School in Madrid, Spain. After graduation, Shaheen becomes a freelance journalist, based in Madrid covering an array of business based stories, including the Spanish property market for the Wall Street Journal, Latin America financial markets for Latin Finance Magazine and venture capital and entrepreneurship for Spanish startup blog, Novo Brief and Global Corporate Venturing Magazine. So now it is 2013 and Shaheen decides to jump into the entrepreneurial waters as co-founder and head of marketing for spotahome.com, an accommodation booking platform for mid and long-term rentals. Shaheen plays a foundational role in the company's early rapid growth, successfully identifying strategies to quickly attract large amounts of web traffic on a shoestring budget, mainly through social media and classified advertising. She also oversees all web and blog content, including creating the format and process for uploading property listings, automated customer support processes in hiring, training, and internal marketing staff and freelancers. This work prompts Shaheen to realize many other companies need to ensure their content is connecting in different languages, countries and cultures. At this point, Shaheen joins forces with co-founders, James Lihue and Daphne Biris, who share a mission to build an outstanding agency for clients to grow their brands abroad. And they start that company I mentioned earlier, Vera Content. The company's name Vera, comes from the Latin word for true and refers to the to the care they put into each piece of work. Ensuring the true meaning is communicated proper. With a focus on Europe and working in more than 20 languages, they adapt marketing content to authentically resonate with local audiences while being true to each client's brand voice, their exceptional in-house team and global freelance talent network of over two, 200 skilled linguists comprised content creators, editors, and translators who know how to effectively translate client's brand voice across Europe and beyond. They're experts in managing complex content operations in multiple languages to maintain consistency and quality on every channel, from blogs and social media to press releases and publications. Client success stories are plentiful and include Sony Music, Pop Sockets, and Sanicat to name a few. Shaheen lives in Malaga with her husband, Bruno and their two young daughters, Ariana and Sarah. Really excited for this one, Brand Nerds, Welcome to Brands Beats and Bytes, Shaheen Samavati. Shaheen Samavati: Wow, you guys really did your research and you went way back to the beginning of my story. LT: That's important. Shaheen Samavati: That was a great summary. LT: Thank you, Shaheen. What, what we find is, you know, our, our audience, you know, is at the point early in their careers where they wanna become CMO and they really like to understand where our, our guests who have succeeded, who, who have succeeded like you started. So that's why we give the whole full array. Shaheen Samavati: Yeah. Amazing. It was a really a summary of everything I've accomplished in my life up to now career-wise. So LT: Cool. Shaheen Samavati: It's interesting to hear it. DC: Uh, Larry does a phenomenal job of that Shaheen every time. It is a pleasure for me to watch our guest listen to this being read. Oftentimes for our guests, it's the first time they've ever heard it. At that depth. Mm-hmm. And so Larry does that and uh, it's a bit like making sure you get your flowers Shaheen when you come on our podcast before you're gone. So this is not an obit this, this is a, this is, this person has done some miraculous things going way back. We ought to tell that story. Larry does that phenomenally. And the other reason we do it Shaheen, is that every great brand and every great accomplishment has an origin story. Shaheen Samavati: Mm-hmm. DC: And we like for people to understand the origin story behind some of the guests that we have here career-wise. And through our podcast we may find even more about your origin story that doesn't have anything to do with the career. Shaheen Samavati: Mm-hmm. DC: So that's why Larry does it. Shaheen Samavati: Yes. Yeah. Very cool. DC: So the next section is called Get Comfy Shaheen. We just ask a question to get you started before we get into the meat of the podcast. You, your root. It's just one that we don't hear that often, so mm-hmm. You a journalist, you, you study journalism in, uh, at university. You then take that, you start moving your way through, you're covering business, then you're covering business and real estate and multiple languages, and you have now taken that and become a, an entrepreneur. I want to go to words that are in the marketing and branding profession that no doubt, Shaheen, you have heard, because these words come out once every three or four years, and once they hit, it's like a, it's like a hashtag, which I call hash brown. It's like a hash brown. Everybody starts talking about it. So let's go back a little bit. I remember the term snackable content, like we got to have snackable content. Then I remember the term omnichannel. We gotta have this. Our work and our messaging must be, uh, able to travel the omnichannels, not just one. Then I remember Shaheen, branded content. These things are still around, but they're not in their heyday. We now do them. Uh, second nature. But there was a time where if you didn't have a meeting talking about, uh, marketing and, and you didn't mention branded content, but like, what, what, what happened to branded content? We are now in the age of storytelling. That's the word. We, we gotta, we have to tell our stories. Storytelling is very important. LT: Yeah. DC: Most of us, however, Shaheen don't know what makes a great story or how to tell a great story. You, however, grew up writing, you are an actual writer and mm-hmm. I'd like you to explain to the Brand Nerds, from your perspective, when you hear this word storytelling in the context of marketing and building brands and business, what to you makes a great story? Shaheen Samavati: Hmm. Um, yeah, I mean, it's interesting. It's something that actually as a business journalist, I find, um, I actually did a, like a, you, when you're, when you're writing business, um, pieces, it's, it's like very formulaic a lot of times and a bit dry, I guess. LT: Right? Shaheen Samavati: And they actually brought in someone when I was working at the newspaper to work with us to incorporate more storytelling into our work. LT: Interesting. Shaheen Samavati: Um, and like taught us some techniques about that and like how to really like lead into a piece with like showing like a slice of life, I guess. And um, basically starting out with an example. Um, and really being like, descriptive in the way I, you know, how we kind of painted the picture. So I remember like right after that, writing a piece about, um, like a lawn care business that I, that we were highlighting. Um, like I used, I, I wrote a column, like a, a, like a, I used to do like weekly features on, uh, businesses in the region. And there was this lawn care company that, um, that basically, uh, was like really focused on not using like heavy machinery and stuff. So it was, we were doing a feature on them, and I, I remember trying to apply the principles of that and really like describing like. Um, you know, the scene of like, what it looked like when they were, um, when, when they were doing the, the work and mm-hmm. And I remember getting like tons of, uh, feedback on that, like really positive and, and people really responded to it. Um, something like he and I was describing like how he sat down the equipment, like Ken was just really painting the scene. And I think, uh, yeah, that, that's what it comes down to. It's like making people be able to feel like they're there, you know, and really like relate to what you're talking about. And by, by creating that narrative and the description, so. DC: Hmm. Oh, LT: and that becomes the lead is what it sounds like. That's what you learn from, right? So, you know that writers often talk about the lede, LEDE, right? Mm-hmm. And, and, um, and so pulling, hooking people in right away is mm-hmm. Is what it sounds like is it becomes foundational to that storytelling. Shaheen Samavati: Yeah. I mean, like, there's different ways you can write a lede but I think, um, like using storytelling in your lede to really, like right. To, to like create this narrative structure that pulls people in because they wanna know what happens next. Like, I think that's, um, that's like using story techno telling technique in, in news. Like, it's not the, there's other ways you can just, uh, go straight to the facts. You can maybe say something surprising. There's like other ways you can, you can get people's attention in the lede.. Mm-hmm. But, um, yeah, but storytelling's a really effective one. That's really good. I mean, ultimately everything's a story. I mean, it's very subjective what you, that's my interpretation of what, what people mean when they talk about storytelling. But I think, yeah, I mean, everything's a story actually. When you read a new story, it's called a story. So an article, like in the news business, everybody calls it a story, right? Every, there should be a storytelling aspect of every, every piece of, um, content that's in, that's in a newspaper or a publication. LT: So, D, can I follow up? Do, do you all at Vera content, do you apply those? You know, you can't do it all the time, but as much as you can. Is that, is that a, a principle that you guys have? Shaheen Samavati: Um, I mean, I mean, it really depends on the project. We do a lot of different right kind types of content. Um, but yeah, definitely like journalistic best practices is something that I've, I mean, we do like training sessions, uh, around like how to create compelling, uh, compelling content and different techniques you can use for drawing people in. Um, so yeah, that's definitely a part of it. But it, like, again, it depends on the, on the context. Sure. Because we do everything from, um, like more editorial style content for blogs or for, uh, even print publications. But then we do, you know, things that are more like sales copy for a website and stuff like that. So yeah, like it depends. Product descriptions, we do it all kinds of content. LT: Gotcha. DC: Uh, Larry and, and Shaheen, we learn a lot just by talking to people like you. On a, on a regular basis. And I have learned something here, uh, on a connection that I had not made until just now. When you were answering the question, and you talked about this, uh, was it a lawn equipment company or lawn, uh, care company? Shaheen Samavati: It was like an ecological lawn care company. DC: Ecological lawn care company. And you talked about the machines. They don't use the heavy machines and I, I would imagine there's some environmental reason for why they've decided to do that. You said you opened by painting the scene. Shaheen Samavati: Mm-hmm. DC: You mentioned the scene, and this reminds me of a principle that is, uh, very prevalent in entertainment and it is this Shaheen first create the world, then create the story. LT: Yeah. DC: First create the world, then create the story. I'll give you two examples. I worked at 20th Century Fox. I had the pleasure of being walked into a nondescript building. I mean, I'm, this building looked like it could have been making, I don't know, socks. I walked in this building, uh, and I was walked in, um, by John Landau, who is the production partner of James Cameron. This is, uh, this is before Avatar was known to the world. In this room was the world of avatar. Literally Shaheen, the characters, the language, the tools, the weapons, even Navi themselves were in this room. There was no film. There was nothing digital, zero digital. It was all analog. I stepped into the world of avatar. I stepped into Pandora before Pandora was Pandora, and it is exactly what you said, Shaheen. James Cameron was creating the scene, if you will. Then the camera started to roll to then play out the story. The same was true for George Lucas and Star Wars. He created the world of Star Wars. Before the stories of Star Wars, the studios bought the film. They were not interested in the world. This is why George Lucas was able to sell all of the merchandise because the the merchandise was the world. Of Star Wars. The studios only had the movie. That's why George. LT: And that was original D, just to be clear to the brand nerds. Correct? That's right. When, when George Lucas originally cut the merch deal. 'Cause they didn't understand all that. DC: They didn't understand it. Yeah. LT: They quickly learned, uh oh, we Oh yeah, we own that too. That's why George Luc is a billionaire. DC: Yeah, that's correct. That's right. So it's very interesting that you mention the painting of the scene and how you got feedback on the article because you painted the scene. That's interesting. That is, that's interesting. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. Okay, Larry, anything more before we go into five questions? All right, Shaheen, now we get into the meat of the podcast, even though that was really good. Off to a good start off to a good start where Larry and I go back and forth to ask questions where we will end at five. I'm up first. And speaking of first, what was the first experience you had with a brand? It could be anything from anywhere. Take yourself back to when you wore shorty. So like a little a, a young person, if you like to go back that far. Speaking of origin stories where you just could not get enough of it, you couldn't spend enough time with it, you couldn't wear it enough, you couldn't think about it enough. You and your friends were into it, whatever that happened to be for you. Almost like a first love. What was that? Shaheen? Shaheen Samavati: Well, I'm sure there's much cooler things I could come up with, but the thing that comes to mind is, uh, ocean spray cranberry juice. Ah, okay. LT: Nothing wrong with that. Shaheen Samavati: Yeah, no, because it's something that I just remember loving as a kid. Like I just drank it all the time and, and even like I. Through the years. It's just something that, like, I, I've always, I always loved cranberry juice and like, and actually in Spain, it's something that, uh, isn't very common. And so it's like whenever I go back home, like I always, oh, to go to the cran cranberry juice aisle. It's amazing. Like in the US you have like an, it's an entire aisle of cranberry juice options. LT: Yeah, yeah. Shaheen Samavati: But yeah, if I ever see it in Spain, I get like, excited. So yeah. That's what do you see DC: what, what, what do you, what do you love about it? Like how, how did you get introduced to it since it's not that common in Spain? Yeah. What, what, what captures your fancy. Shaheen Samavati: Well, I mean, I grew up actually in New England, in New Hampshire. Uh oh, new. Oh, okay, okay, okay. DC: My bad. My bad. All right. Shaheen Samavati: Yeah, so, and well, my, so, so I, yeah, I, I was born in the us my father's from Iran. Um, my mom is like American, so yeah, no, I grew up in the US and um, yeah, so that's why DC: Oh, that's why. Shaheen Samavati: Okay. I mean, I think Cranberry just is pretty popular there, and my family like bought it a lot, you know, so it's just something that we always had growing up. Um, okay. But yeah, you see, I'd LT: love to, I'd love to chime in in here. So, uh, so what's interesting, Shaheen, I was once a brand manager for Tropicana, a pure premium orange juice, which again, plays in the, in, in, in the same arena. And yeah, you know, when it, it's interesting, um, the people who grow up in households where. Uh, where, where their parents have, you know, the natural inclination to feed their kids juice in the morning, and orange juice was a big part of that back in the day. And cranberry juice, especially in New England where you're from, that's a big deal. And so what I thought was really interesting is that, um, you, you still see it as a part of home, right? Because it was, it was. And so it has that nostalgic, uh, connection for you. So if you, if you by crazy chance or in some store in, uh, you know, probably some, uh, some, some, um, uh, some health food store or whatever in Spain where they happen to carry cranberry juice for whatever reason, that immediately brings you back to your childhood. Yeah. Yes. And, and so, and then, and Ocean Spray is the brand because Ocean Spray is cranberry juice. 'cause I, I believe they have a monopoly on, and, and I mean this in a, in the best way, they've done a great job with branding. Um, and so what, where I'm going with that brand nerds is that when you have a connection, uh, with a kid, whatever that brand is, it can maintain itself through, you know, from, from the time as DC would say, you're a shorty through, you know, an older person's life. And that is something that, uh, that we should never sneeze at as, as brand custodians. Um, and there's, there's always ways that you can figure out how do you keep it current, but yet still have those emotional connections of nostalgia. And that's a very hard thread to, that's a very hard needle to thread. Shaheen Samavati: Yeah, absolutely. And say in Spade actually the place where you've, the only place you really find it is, uh, in liquor stores because they sell it as a mixer. LT: That's funny. That makes sense. Shaheen Samavati: That DC: does make sense. That does make sense. Shaheen Samavati: I'm the only person who goes to the liquor store just looking for the cranberry juice. DC: They probably wonder, she, you go there with the cranberry juice, they're like, okay, are you gonna take out some of this liquor as well? Alright, Larry, uh, you wanna hear? LT: So next question, Shaheen. So who is haters having the most influence on your career? Shaheen Samavati: Um, well, so definitely there's been several people who have had a huge influence. I mean, I think like a career it's made by the relationships you, you make. Um, but one person who stands out to me is, um, the, the person who hired me in my first, uh, journalism internship at the Dayton Daily News in Dayton, Ohio. Uh, his name was John Thompson and he was like head of their internship program, but he had a, yeah, he was a really like, amazing person and someone who really like, really like advocated for, for interns, you know, and actually like always hired like local interns from the area. I was living in Dayton at the time. My family moved around, so, um, so yeah, so that was like. Really like opened the door to me for the, in the industry, um, that it's like completely changed the course of my career. So I feel like there's many, many people have an, have had an influence, but that was like really like a, the thing that like changed the whole trajectory of my career at the early stage. I think LT: John Thompson's the OG of, uh, of having influence because uh, it sounds like he was the spark to you be really being a journalist. And then let's be honest, that's your whole, that took you on your path, which is really cool. Shaheen Samavati: Yeah, definitely. And he was a mentor to me for many years after that as well. So, and love that. I think someone who really like, wanted to see me and other interns who we worked with succeed. So LT: Love that. D, anything to add before we, uh, hit the next question? DC: I do. Shaheen. Before you met John Thompson. Did you already, uh, uh, know you were interested in what he was introducing to you? Shaheen Samavati: Um, I mean, yes. At that point, yes. Um, but actually the, the reason, I mean, I, I guess I was always for some reason interested in journalism probably because of like media and just like, it's a job that like shows up, you know, in Superman or I don't know, like different, there's so many characters and movies and stuff that are, that are journalists. That always seemed like a cool job to me. And, um, and then there was like a career, um, program in my high school that was like a vol, like you could volunteer or like request to be part of it now, like to do an internship during high school. And, um, and then they gave you a placement in, in a company. And so actually was, and I, they ask you like what areas you're interested in and so mm-hmm. And I, um. I said politics and journalism. And I did, I had a placement in, this was like job shadowing, not really an internship. So I job shadowed someone, uh, in the county commissioner's office. And I was like, this sucks. No, this is not for me. And then I job shadowed someone at this newspaper. Um, and then, and it was just like a couple of weeks or something. I was a high school kid following someone around, like just seeing what their job was basically. But then, um, but after that, like, I met John Thompson then, and then he contacted me about an internship opportunity, like the following summer. So that's how I, I got in. But definitely, um, I actually, the lady's name was Julie King, who ran the, ran the job shadowing program. And she had a huge influence too, but she wasn't someone that I kept in touch with afterwards, so. Got it. LT: Mm-hmm. Shaheen Samavati: But yeah, that was a really cool program actually that they did at, at my high school. And it'd be amazing if more high schools did that because it really opened doors for me. Just making those initial contacts that most high schoolers don't get the chance to make. I wouldn't even think of, you know, you need someone to guide you to do that. LT: Totally. I've often said Shaheen, there's so many people who decide, oh, I'd like to be a lawyer. And they haven't really, you know, they go to law school. I'm just using, I'm picking on law 'cause I like to, but, uh, but a lot of people you find do this, they go to law school and then they graduate law school, and then they actually go be a lawyer and like, oh my God, this is not what I, what I expected it to be. Because they didn't really know what it's like to, uh, to actually, you know, work in a law firm or work in for the DA's office or whatever. Um, uh, and, and so having that opportunity as a, as a high schooler is just, is really all, is really awesome because you don't know what something's like until you do it. Mm-hmm. Shaheen Samavati: Yeah. Yeah, totally. DC: It's a bit like, um, attempting to describe to someone who has never swam what it's like to swim. Speaking to them without them getting in the water. LT: Right. DC: You can tell them all of the different things that have to you, the buoyancy and all of this, but until you get your keister in that water, you don't know. LT: Yep. DC: Yeah. You, you, you don't know. Uh, Shaheen, I do have a question about, uh, John Thompson. 'cause I believe I heard you say you shadowed, and then the next year John Thompson contacted you about the internship. Did I hear that accurately? Shaheen Samavati: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's right. Mm-hmm. DC: Okay. Why did he, why did he contact you? Why did John Thompson come back to you and say, Hey, we, we got an internship? Shaheen Samavati: Y Yeah, I think he just like saw that I was like, enthusiastic or like, uh, saw something in me basically that he was like. Actually, the, the internship that I initially did wasn't even, uh, he was just like, this is the way I can get you in. Because it was like, to, to do like, uh, admin work for like the, uh, like it was on the advertising side or something. Like, it wasn't, uh, actually technically a journalism internship. But I, um, started out in that role and then he moved me to the, to the editorial department. But that was like where they had budget for an intern at that moment. LT: Right. Shaheen Samavati: He was trying to pull some strings to get me in. And so I feel like he really went above and beyond to, to find a place for me. LT: The, listen. That's, that's super cool. And I'm struck with DC the name John Thompson, who was the, uh, uh, you know, not too long ago passed, uh, Georgetown basketball coach who did that for so many people. So there must be something cool about that name. John Thompson, DC You wanna hit the third question? DC: I do. You've accomplished quite a bit. Otherwise, Larry would not have had this wonderful soliloquy at the beginning outlining your fabulous experience. This question, Shaheen has nothing to do with any of those wonderful things that you accomplished. Mm-hmm. This question has to do with your biggest F up. So the one that it was on you, it wasn't because of some manager, it wasn't because of some environmental thing, you made the mistake, it was a big wet F up. Mm-hmm. What was that in your career and more importantly than that, what did you learn from it? Shaheen Samavati: Um, well, so in the early days of, of Vera content, when I was first getting into, I mean, um, well, like, so the, the origin story of Vera content is that it kind of grew from work that I was doing as a consultant and, and content creator myself. And I kind of grew what I was doing into a, into a bigger business. Um, translation was something that I didn't really have experience with. Um, but of course when you're, at the time, obviously now I have a lot of it. So it was brand new in this, in the realm, in the arena of translation. Um. I had this project, well, it was a client that I had been doing content in English for. Um, and they wanted, they had a project which was like, to translate a, a magazine from Portuguese into English. And I was like, oh, yeah, I can do that. But I didn't speak Portuguese. And um, so I, I did like, uh, hire, uh, some freelancers to like do the translation, but it was like my first time doing this, like, scale of a translation. It was like a, an entire magazine. I had to do it in two weeks or something. Um, and, and that, but like, I was like, you know, I was hungry for like, getting new projects. I was like, I can, you know, I'll find a solution, I'll do it. And, uh, anyway, outsourced the, the translation and then I, um, and then the translation was really bad. LT: Yeah. Shaheen Samavati: And then LT: it's funny because, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I was thinking, well, how are you gonna, what's the check for you gonna, if you don't speak Portuguese for, to know that this is working? But anyway, I keep going. Shaheen Samavati: Yeah, well I spoke Spanish, so I thought I like, could make LT: Right, okay. Right. Shaheen Samavati: This is my mistake, obviously, I've learned, right? You need checks and balances, obviously in to build the right team and everything. And I hadn't done any of that yet. It was like my, my first, um, project with this type, you know? So, um, but anyway, so I outsourced it, bad translation and what I, and I, but I decided like I'm just gonna fix it. So I like, um, hold, DC: hold on a second. Shaheen. So myself, I'd like you to articulate how you discovered the translation was bad. Shaheen Samavati: Yeah. Well it was just like badly written, that's the thing. It was just like, sounded bad in English. Oh, it sounded bad in English. Okay. LT: Oh, I see. Yeah, because it was going English, it was going Portuguese to English. Got it. It was Shaheen Samavati: Portuguese to English. Yeah. So I understood the, what it was translated into, but um, so I just like went through and like thoroughly edited everything my, edited everything myself and like made it sound really good in English. Uh, but um. Then, and you know, I double checked everything. Like, and I, yeah, I don't know. I was comparing against Portuguese. I was Google translating stuff, trying to make sure, like I didn't really spent all this time doing it, which I really, I could have just done it from zero at that point. But anyway, uh, or we, the help of a, of a automatic translator. But, um, and anyway, I ended up like submitting it and then, uh, well they print the magazine, they accepted the translation, they print the magazine. And then I found out that, uh, the CEO's name was, was incorrect. Oh. In one, in one of the articles. But the thing was, his name was like Joel, uh, I don't remember his last name. But anyway, Joel was a really common name in Portuguese, and it was written as John. So I just thought his name was John, but actually, LT: oh, Shaheen Samavati: ah, apparently this translator had just Google translated it or something. Like they changed his name from Joel to John. Oh. And um. The entire magazine. And anyway, we had to, they had to reprint and I had to basically pay for the reprint, which was really expensive. Um, and amazingly well then, like they didn't hire me for the next magazine translation, but then they actually ended up like the next edition after that. Apparently whoever translated after me like did even worse. And so they like came back and asked me to do, to do the translation again. And actually that was a project that we, that we still do. So it's like at Vera Content. So we've been doing it now for like 10 years. Um, so it's just funny. I mean, I guess what I learned from it, well, like, LT: it's a great story by the way. Great story by the way. Before you get into what you learned from it, what, how did you learn about the CEO's name being wrong? And, and what did you find out about, about what he said? Um, knowing that his name or if he did find out that his name was wrong. Shaheen Samavati: I don't think it got to him probably. Um, I think that, um, probably, I I, someone must have like read it and like realized it. Oh my God. Like, crap, the CEO can't see this. LT: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Shaheen Samavati: And so we need to reprint it before anyone sees this. Like it, the, it hadn't been distributed yet, it just had, had been printed. It's unfortunate that nobody on their side read it before it went to print. But, um, yeah. So, uh, yeah, so, and I also don't know actually what, what went down. 'Cause I only had like my point of contact there, obviously. So. LT: Gotcha. So you were saying, I interrupted you about what you learned from it? Shaheen Samavati: Yeah, well, I mean, there's actually been other times in the early days of the business where like. Maybe we had like not a good result from a, from a freelancer that we hired for something. And I think it just, I basically learned like if they didn't do it right, just first of all, don't assign the whole thing, like do things in small chunks. That is a big learning that we would never do that now. Um, it's like, okay, the person needs to do a sample. The sample needs to be approved, like, uh, before, before you move on and have them do the whole thing. Because I obviously, I had like sunk so much budget into paying that person to do it at that point that I'm like, oh, I have no more budget. I have to do it myself. Right. So that, um, it just being like doing proper project management, um, is, is something I learned. But, um, yeah, and just getting the right people for the job, like, uh, making, like doing the vetting process and making sure, I mean now we have like a super thorough vetting process in terms of how we, um, select talent. And then, but another, I guess, takeaway is that. Like, because like despite this mistake, the client did come back to us, and I think that was, thanks to like, just the, well, the, the fact that we made it right and like paid for the reprint, obviously, but like, and also just like the relationship we had and like the oth otherwise good experience they had working with us. So like, I guess like fuckups will be, um, forgiven if the relationship is good, you know, and you go above and beyond. LT: So you're saying own it. That's what I'm hearing you say. Really? Shaheen Samavati: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. LT: So do you see anything else to add before we hit the next question? Oh, DC: oh, oh, yeah. I, I definitely want to go to a, a place. Yeah, please do. Shaheen, you are, you have this opportunity that presents itself, the translation of a magazine from Portuguese to English. Mm-hmm. You don't speak Portuguese. You mentioned as point number one. Point number two you mentioned. You outsourced the work. Mm-hmm. You outsourced the work, so you knew before you even said, yes, I can do it, that you were going to have to outsource this to get some work. Shaheen Samavati: Yes. DC: I'd like to know what gave you the gumption to say, yes, I can do it. Shaheen Samavati: Um, good que I guess that's just the, I don't know. It's overconfidence. LT: Okay. Shaheen Samavati: Yeah, no. Um, no. I think, I don't know. I think I'm, I, I, I feel like I. That I'm good at figuring things out, and I had confidence in myself that I could, you know, but it's true that like, it's hard to get it right the first time when you've never done it before. So I guess I, my philosophy is like, even if I, I don't do it perfectly, it's better to just like give it a try because then I'll get that experience and I can apply it to the next thing. Like even if this project didn't work out, even if it was a loss, it was like a learning and then I could apply it. So LT: D, can I chime in? Uh, the Howard Moskowitz, who I work with is a brilliant researcher. DC: You, you can, and then I want to come back to that, but go ahead, LT. LT: Don't let perfection get in the way of progress is what you're really saying, but used to say, but go, go ahead D. DC: Thank you Larry. Uh, Shaheen, you may or may not be familiar with the story. My guess is you are, it's 1980 IBM. They're playing around with the early PCs, personal computers. They do not have an operating system. So they turn to a young Bill Gates and they say, Hey, Bill, can you be, we've heard you do this basic stuff as in the software program, basic capital letters, B-A-S-I-C. Can you, uh, like do this operating system for us? You got one. Bill's answer is yes, we have an operating system and we can do this for you. IBM at this time, IBM might be the most powerful tech company in the world, on the planet. And here, Bill Gates is saying, yes, I can do it. Bill Gates didn't have squat. Right? LT: Right? DC: Mm-hmm. He had no operating system, zero squat, nothing yet. He said, yes, I can do it. You did the same thing Shaheen and in, in the world of entrepreneurship. You, you, you said overconfidence. You've got to be overconfident. Mm-hmm. In the Steve Jobs parlance, they call it alternate reality. Mm-hmm. You gotta say yes, you can do things when you are not sure that you can do them. That's a great story, Shaheen. LT: It is. Shaheen Samavati: Absolutely. DC: Yeah. That, that's a great, did you know that Bill, Bill Gates story? Shaheen Samavati: No. DC: Yeah. Look it up. 1980. Shaheen Samavati: Yeah, I will. DC: Yeah. Yeah. 1980. Larry, next question, brother. Oh, Larry, anything to add to what I just said? LT: No, no, no. It's a great, I was just gonna say it's a great story and it really, uh, it, it is so indicative of what you have to do as an entrepreneur. You know, um, you, you, when an opportunity arises, you say yes and figure it out. DC: Yep. Yep. LT: Okay. Shaheen. So question four. Uh, when regarding technology and marketing, can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech? Or you can talk to us about areas that you think they should be leery or simply avoid. Shaheen Samavati: Hmm. Um, well, yeah, I mean, I think like, clearly AI is like impacting every aspect of marketing right now. Um, so I think, um, I think, I mean, something that we're really focusing on at the moment is like, um, like well building out processes for using AI effectively in content creation without like overlying on it. So I guess there, it's, it's both a, a place where you have to focus and also be leery of, I suppose. 'cause it's like, um, something that we, that's I think a real, a challenge for like every marketing team basically. It's like you want your team to be using Ai, but you don't want them to like. Uh, use it irresponsibly, I guess, or like, uh, you want them to use it in a way that's actually productive. And there's so little, like, there's actually, like, surprisingly, it's surprisingly difficult to like collaborate as a team on a lot of, of the different AI platforms. Um, and I guess that's something that will change and that more functionality will be added. Um, but yeah, that's in terms of like, uh, you know, sharing your prompts and things like that. So, um, and then another thing, the, the one aspect is like AI content creation. The other is, uh, like using, using AI for actually like image generation and uh, video generation. I think it's something that absolutely, like I've seen a lot of of brands are not tapping it in too, into it too much and there's like so much potential with what you can do for it and so much cost savings, um, that it's like something that we're all, we all have to adapt to. Absolutely. LT: Oh, D I'm gonna chime in first. Alright. Just one. We've had so much conversation about ai, but no one has positioned it the way you just did, which is awesome. Um, because that is the crux of it, right? Like, how do we, we we're all using AI and what is that right balance of what, you know, what's the line of, as you said, using the, the, the prompts that are, that are, are proven most effective. And where do you, where does AI take you, again, using a football analogy, does it take you to the red zone, to the 20 yard line and then it's up to you as the content creator to take it into the end zone because it can't take you into to get a touchdown. We all know we all, it's, it's, it's very, uh, it's usually, and again, I'm, I'm, I'm checking myself a little bit because I, AI is getting so much better. But it's usually apparent when someone does the whole thing, Ai. And, and I, and I've read, and I've talked to professor friends who they, they quickly discern, like with their, with their students' writings, oh, that's, this is all Ai, this is not somebody who, who wrote all of this. So what's that right balance is such a huge thing that we're all still trying to figure out. And I, and, and dare I say, it's probably a moving target as, as we go forward. And Shaheen, just so you know, we sat on a conference earlier this year at Georgia Tech Marketing, uh, uh, in, uh, Georgia Tech, uh, uh, marketing Innovations conference with the person who runs all the Coca-Cola AI initiatives and their Coca-Cola's just doing, uh, they did it for 2024 and they're doing it again for their holiday campaign for 2025, where they're fully leaning into ai and it is it like. What AI can do, everyone is, is really good. So again, finding that balance and that's what you're really saying is huge. I'd love to hear DC's perspective on this. DC: I love the definition and the perspective that Shaheen has brought forward. LT: Yep. DC: There's something important for us to consider as marketers and frankly as humans at this stage of the game, AI can create based on that which has already been created. Yep. AI cannot yet create something that has yet to be created. This is a very big difference. This is a very big difference in my mind when, uh, when we talk about the balance and you use the analog, Larry getting into the red zone versus getting into the touchdown, uh, touchdown. There will be a group of folks. Who are, uh, too reliant intellectually on ai, who will expect that their prompts will get them into the end zone. They will just expect that that will happen. Then there will be a minority group of folks, very small who will understand that, no, no, no, you got into the end zone because AI carried you there. This small group of folks will say, I'm gonna create something that has yet to be created and combine it with ai. Yes, and I'm going to get into the real end zone. Deciphering between the two, I believe is going to be one of the critical pieces of intelligence moving forward. How do you tell the difference between something that has been created by ai based on other creations and what is in fact, original? LT: Yep. DC: What's original thinking? Shaheen Samavati: Mm-hmm. LT: Yeah, it's really great question. What do you think Shaheen? About what DC just posited? Shaheen Samavati: Yeah. No, I think like AI is most powerful when you, you absolutely have to start with something original. Like you use AI to enhance it, to create multiple versions of it, to repurpose and stuff. But like the original idea has to come from you. Like, AI's not gonna come up with anything original. We, no, we've seen, yeah. DC: I'll another quick example. You gonna say something else Shaheen, before I give this other quick example? Alright. Shaheen Samavati: No, go ahead. DC: Um, when, when I was dating, um, I remember early in my dating life I wanted to find out the best lines to use. I would read, I would talk with friends. What are the best lines I can use to get this, uh, uh, young lady across the room to be interested in me? None of my lines worked. What worked was me being authentically me. That's what worked. AI is the lines. That's right. Yeah. They can give you all the lines of the world. They cannot give you, uh, who you are authentically. AI cannot do that. At least not yet. I hope not ever, but that's where things are now, in my view. LT: Yeah. And before we push off to the next question, Dee, I as you're saying that, you know, the context is always changing, it's what you were talking about before is, is really creating the scene in the context, like, you know, uh, yeah, like James Cameron, um, uh, did, uh, with Avatar, you know, our context and the situations as we are moving forward is changing. And so AI can't keep up with that either. Like you, you're the one who can be the barometer and understand all the context of the. Uh, Shaheen in your case, what clients need in five different languages. Right. And, and, and, um, and what, what are the kind of things that, you know, uh, is the brand voice of, of said client and that particularly resonates with the target audience that they're going for, um, is different than maybe the, that the con the context that an ai, any AI can ever really know? Shaheen Samavati: Yeah, I, I would say if there's one specific application that I definitely recommend for marketers to use if they're not already is, is like using, uh, AI tools for maintaining brain brand voice. Like, I think it's, um, it's something that we actually did a lot of research into, like what tool would work for us. And we, we are working with like Grammarly on our English projects, um, and Oh yeah. And with another tool called Language Tool, um, for other languages that's a little like similar to Grammarly but works in more than 20 languages. And, um. But to be able to like create custom rules, uh, to like be able to flag like when something is out of your brand voice. Um, and I think that's like, we found it really powerful when you have a team of like 20 people creating content. Like to be able to see dynamically, like when something is off, like, oh, that doesn't sound right. Like, and have a tool that like flags that for you. Um, yeah, it's Oh, that's true. It's really cool. It's something that we used to like, have written style guides and like glossaries and stuff and it's like, how do you get people to, to reference that now you can actually have it, you know, as they're writing it tells them like, that doesn't sound like the brand, you know? LT: That's cool. DC: What's that tool again? LT: Grammarly Shaheen Samavati: Now features built into Grammarly that do that and Grammarly. DC: Wow. Shaheen Samavati: Yeah. Mm-hmm. DC: So you, you, you input into Grammarly what it needs to understand the tone and voice that is your brand and it will then read that. Shaheen Samavati: Yeah, exactly. You can like put all these custom settings, like if you have a team account on Grammarly, like you can, you can, uh, yeah, set up all these rules, like Oh wow, okay. And, and like phone a voice and all this stuff, and it'll, it'll, like, you can choose like what level you want it to, to flag things and stuff. There's a lot of customization up here. DC: Wow, LT: that's cool. DC: That's that's dope. LT: That is love that. All right. Shaheen Samavati: And they're not the only ones. There's many tools doing that now, but, uh, but yeah, I like Grammarly because it's, it's one that's like the team was already using, so it's, and it's just like, I think there's so many things that have more, like, have so many tools that are adding AI functionality all the time. And it's really like, you don't need to like, adopt new tools. It's just look at what, what AI functionality, the tools you're already using have and actually like take full advantage of it. LT: That's great. Good. That's a great, great pointer. Shaheen. Excellent. D, you wanna go to the next question? Last question. I, DC: I do. Shaheen, what are you most proud of? Shaheen Samavati: I mean, definitely the, um, everything we've built at Vera Content and especially the team, and I think the culture that we have of creative collaboration. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's something like, for me, uh, starting my own company was like, uh, like a big part of it was like creating this organization that like, I felt really, you know, proud of and that like, and that we could like work together to do great things. And I think we, we are doing that at ve end. LT: Part of that should be proud of that. That's really cool. Yeah. We're employing a lot of people, uh, you know, who, who's, uh, who making a living a great living off of you and you're helping clients in ways that, uh, it sounds like they, they weren't able to tap into before. So, um, that's what, that's a win-win for a lot of folks. That's great. Yeah, absolutely. D anything to add? DC: Not for me. LT: All right. Shaheen, we, this is great, man. Shaheen, we, this is such a great conversation. We're moving to, uh, to the next segment, and that is What's Popping, What's Popping D? DC: What's popping? LT: So Shaheen, this is our chance to shout out, shout down or simply air, something happening in and around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discussion. And I think you had a, a good what's popping for us, so please hit us with it. Shaheen Samavati: No, I think just like an interesting trend lately and something that I, I've been paying attention to, 'cause I come from a journalism background as you know, it's just the fact that like a lot of, uh, print magazines are coming back or that print circulation is like increasing. And I think that's a really interesting trend, um, because I think it shows that like people are like. Well, just tired of being online all the time. LT: Right. Shaheen Samavati: And I know, like, personally, I subscribe to a magazine recently and because I just like, well, I, I'd like to have something to read that I don't have to look at my phone. LT: Right. Shaheen Samavati: Um, and I think it also goes to show that like people just want, want curated content that like, and it goes hand in hand what we're talking about with ai. It's just like, there's so much just like crap content out there now and it's like so hard to like wade through it all. And actually I think, um, more and more publications are also like gating their content and, um. Like, have paywalls. Um, and I remember when I was working in journalism, there was this big debate like, should we put a paywall or not? But Google, we need it to be crawlable like, right? And now I think people are like, you know what? We're creating quality content. If you wanna read it, you have to pay for it. Um, and it took a long time to get to that point. But I think, yeah, like I said, it's like there's so much crap out there. If you wanna actually, uh, read something that's curated and been put together carefully, like now it's actually, you know, it's worth paying for that. LT: So that's really interesting. Y uh, you know what, as you're, as you were positing that I immediately thought of, uh, what's happened in music with people going back to record albums, right? Mm-hmm. And, and wanting to have stereo systems again. And I think that there's a level of pendulum swing that goes back to. Can I take a deep breath and take myself away from the digital world? And I, I think that that is something that's really interesting, that will be interesting for us to monitor if that becomes something that is smaller in niche, but or gross to be much bigger. You know, I just recently have, and, uh, you know, my, I went to UNC, university of North Carolina for, for, uh, business school, and I get the alumni, the re the alumni review, and I'm holding this up and you can see it when, when we, um, oh yeah, yeah. When, uh, when we, uh, when we showed this online, um, and the, the, the paper stock of this is just, you know, it's thick. It's just, it's done really well and there's something very inviting about it that you just wanna sit down and read. Shaheen Samavati: Yeah, totally. Like I felt nostalgic for having a print publication, right? Like it's probably, it's been probably 10 years since I've had like, uh, right. Been subscribed to any, LT: the question is, is it gonna, is that, is that one, is that a blip or is it gonna grow bigger? And I don't know that any of us really can predict that, but that will be something that interesting to monitor. DC What are you thinking? DC: I'm gonna go back to, at the time what was a very innovative thing that Nike did. They opened a store in New York and it was called Nike id. Mm-hmm. This was a store Shaheen that you could walk into off the street and you could design your own Nike shoe. So they give you the base shoe, maybe it was a dunk or an Air Force one, and then you got to pick the colors, uh, uh, ways, and all of these details, the laces, the. It was all the rave because it was an early version of UGC. Mm-hmm. User generated content. LT: Mm-hmm. DC: And we all thought this was gonna be a game changer. It did not change the game. LT: Mm-hmm. DC: The reason why it didn't change the game, Shaheen, is because we, the public could make some terribly ugly shoes. I'm, I'm talking these shoes that people were wearing out. It was like, okay, only you will wear these shoes. I will not be caught dead in these shoes. They were absolutely just, they were insanely bad. Shaheed. And the reason why is because they were not curated by prose. They were created by amateurs. You got to see and appreciate just how hard these experts in design worked to create a shoe that millions of people would buy and love. There, there is a value to curation, so my response to what you've said is, I'm not surprised. LT: Yeah. DC: However, having said that, I think the delta between the amateur and the expert is closing. LT: Yeah. DC: Because of the tools that we've talked about here, which puts pressure on the experts to raise their game. We, we cannot be as, as people that create things. We cannot be caught by the consumer. Can't be that we gotta be ahead of the consumer, otherwise they don't need us. LT: Right. DC: They don't need us. That's my response. LT: Well, that's, uh, that's, that's really interesting. And, and, uh, I'm struck with the best content are, are things that we can never, as consumers really touch, you know, uh, as it relates to the best journalism who, you know, do projects where they're able to get people interviewed that, um, that really tell the story in ways that we can't decent. I reading Jeff Perlman's book on, uh, on Tupac. Yeah. And, um, he interviewed like, I don't know, 600 people for this. And, and so, you know, the illumination of his life is done in a way that's, you know, that only a special journalist can do. So I, I, that's the things that come to mind DC that, you know, consumers can't do that, can't do it, DC: cannot do it. LT: All right, Shaheen, this is awesome. Uh, what, what a, well, man, this is, again, these go so fast when we have great conversations like this. So, Shaheen, we're in the last segment. Uh, I'm gonna posit my learnings. DC will do his. And if you want, before we sign off, you can share anything that, uh, that you've learned from this wonderful conversation that we've had. All right. So I have five excellent ones from this conversation. So, the number one is the the best storytelling brand nerds. Pull people in right away. It might be obvious, but when you're thinking about the storytelling you're doing for your personal brand or brands that you're stewarding, you gotta pull people in right away. That's number one. And, uh, DC loved his story about when he, he's talked about this a couple times and I love it every time he brings it up about when he walked into James Cameron's Avatar world, that, hi. The, the quote is, you gotta first create the world, then create the story. And this means it's all about context. You have to be, uh, very purposeful about all those elements. That's number two. Number three, this goes back to John Thompson brand nerds as mentors. And we're all gonna play the mentee mentor part of it. But as mentors, think of yourself like John Thompson to do all that you can to support your mentee success. Number four, like Shaheen did with her first translation that went sideways. When you f up, own it Brand Nerds. And maybe it'll come back to you, like in Shahin's case it did. Maybe it won't, but you gotta own it. That's number four. And the last one is. Um, Shaheen was talking specifically about Grammarly May. I'm sure there's other folks who do it, but we think this is huge. When you are a stewarding, uh, content that's brand related content, you gotta make sure it's consistent and that, uh, that Grammarly function that Shaheen talked about that actually catches things that are off of brand voice as you're creating it. That sounds really dope. So whether it's go Grammarly or someone like someone else who can do that for you, uh, when you're actually creating content to make sure that brand voice, uh, and that brand positioning is sacrosanct with all content, that's huge. Those are my five. DC: That's great, Larry. That's great. Shaheen, we're meeting here for the first time. We've spent more than an hour together. This has been a lovely conversation. What I attempt to do at the end of the podcast. Is highlight, at least in my mind, what is it about this person that's before us that is uniquely theirs? Um, uh, there's a, um, a car that has, uh, a bumper sticker in my, uh, in my condo, and it says something along the lines of this. The first job is to figure out what your gifts are. The second job is to give them away. And I am interested in understanding the gifts of people, and I'm gonna attempt to identify some of those with you. Uh, right now I'm gonna start with your path journalism, your writing stories, you're in the press. You were in Cleveland, in Detroit, we used to refer to Cleveland, which is in some ways a very similar city to Detroit. Uh, on the water. We used to call Cleveland Leveland with respect. Leveland. That was a long time. Shaheen Samavati: You have not heard that. DC: That's a long time ago. Uh, Shaheed shaheed long time ago from journalism to entrepreneurship. So there were things that you had to figure out to go from journalism to entrepreneurship. I say to my daughters, when you are stepping in faith, you have to put your foot out, not knowing if there's any cement there to step on. You just have to take the step and then the, the, the, the, the cement or ground will meet you where your level of faith is. That's the first thing. The second thing is, uh, John Thompson. Larry mentioned John. Him calling you for your internship, but it wasn't the internship that you thought it was going to be. LT: Yeah, DC: it was. We just need to get you in the building. You're gonna go over here in the advertising department and work as an admin. I know you are. I know you are a writer. Shaheen. I know you are in journalism, but we just need to get you over here because that's where the budget is. LT: After DC: we get you there, then I will get you over into the journalism department. But here's the thing though, there were no guarantees. Shaheen, you could have gone over there and stayed over there. You could have gone over there and John Thompson got busy 'cause he's a busy person. He's working on deadlines and he could have said, you know what, that's good. She's fine. She's got an internship over there. That could have happened Shaheen. It did not happen. And you trusted enough. Okay. I, I believe if I go here, this gentleman, John Thompson will take me over there. You didn't know any better. You didn't know any better. So you did. Same is the case with the magazine translation from Portuguese into English. You, you said yes. Just like Bill Gates said yes, you said yes. And frankly, Shaheen, you didn't know any better. Okay? You didn't know any better and you worked it out to the point where they went away from you. I know the John story. We got the John story instead of the real name of the ceo, the misspelling of the CEO's name, uh, well not misspelling, but the wrong CEO's name. Got that they've come back to you after taking a task with someone else who obviously was worse than what you were doing. You only, you only botched the CEO's name. You don't know what the other company botched. That's right. God only knows you've been working with them for 10 years now. And here you are with Vera Content. And I would dare say some of what happened during that f up with the translation. Put something inside of you with Vera Content as well. And here you are as an entrepreneur running this company. And you had not created a company, founded a company by yourself and launched it. You didn't know what you were doing yet, Shaheen, you did it. So the theme here is that, uh, I, I, I'm figuring out about your gift is oftentimes to create something in its original form requires someone who at the beginning, doesn't know what they're doing. LT: Hmm. DC: Because at that point, you don't know what your boundaries are. Shaheen, right. You don't know that. I believe this has been part of the magic of your career, is that you're willing to say yes before you know what you're doing. LT: Mm-hmm. DC: And then you figure it out. I'll give one more story here and it's um, it's someone who is, um, who is very near and dear to me. His name is Rob Stone. He and his business, John Cohen, business partner John Cohen. They, uh, first Rob started an agency called Cornerstone Promotions. They did promoting of records. They came up with a mix tape that was on a CD of the hottest records in the country, maybe even the world. And they would send these CDs around the country to prominent DJs, Shaheen. This became the preeminent source of new music that we would hear in the US and dare I say, places around the world that was. Here, the four undiscovered. The record executives did not know about all of this music. They didn't know this. Rob knew about it. John later joined, so they started as this agency, and then later they launched a magazine called Fader, F-A-D-E-R, like a DJ Fader, if you're DJing. Mm-hmm. A fader between the two. Uh, turntables, fader. I once asked Rob. Rob was one of my dear friends. He has since passed. Um, very sad that he's passed. How were you guys so successful with Fader Magazine? So Fader became the, the younger generation's, um, spin Magazine, for example, um, the Rolling Stone magazine. So Fader was that for, uh, a younger generation. And I asked him, Hey, how, how, how did you and John do this? He said, we did not know. What we were supposed to not be doing. Mm-hmm. So we did it the way that we did it and many of prominent artists today, uh, got their first cover, their first cover, Shaheen on Fader on the Fader magazine. Mm-hmm. So based on, and it's, it, it is extremely powerful. So I have, now I am dubbing you the Rob Stone, John Cohen Fader Magazine of the entrepreneurial world. And that is be fearless. I think that's your gifts, Shaheen, to tell us be fearless. LT: Thank you. And DC from DC that's high praise. Shaheen is very high praise. Um, hey Shaheen, thank you so much. Uh, before we, uh, before we hit the outro here, is there anything that you want to share that you've learned from this wonderful conversation we've had? Shaheen Samavati: Well, just some of what you were just talking about made me think of a quote, which I, I wish I remember who said it, but it was something like, um, you know, if, if you see someone who, who really looks like they know what they're doing, like they're faking it, like anyone, you know, you see someone on stage who's like super confident, da da, it's like, 'cause they're faking it. It's like all of us, everybody, nobody really knows what they're doing. We all have to fake it, um, and convince others that we do. Right. LT: There's, there's so, it's so true. And whether you can deal with that imposter syndrome. In whatever way works for you is, uh, is is the deal. You're right. That's a, that's a great way to to, to end this. Um, so Brand Nerds, thanks for listening to Brands, Beats and Bytes, the executive producers of Brands Beats and Bytes are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, Larry Taman, Hailey Cobbin, Jade Tate, and Tom Dioro DC: the pod father. LT: Yeah, that is he. And if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share for those on Apple Podcasts if you are so inclined. We love those excellent reviews. We hope you enjoyed this podcast, and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.