Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / Melissa Dougherty: ‘Happy Lies’ & Our Self-Obsessed World

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Melissa Dougherty: ‘Happy Lies’ & Our Self-Obsessed World · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

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  Hey friends, welcome to World View Matters, powerful podcast today. I've got in today's
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  guest is the author of the brand new book Happy Lies. Melissa Doherty, she's an ex-new
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  thought follower. She describes this philosophy as a stealthy message of encouragement to
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  live your truth, seek your happiness, find your identity through sexual freedom, and
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  think your desires into existence, often with the name of Jesus attached as an endorsement.
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  New thought, ideology subtly infiltrates contemporary Christian thought, presenting a false
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  gospel that masquerades as a more open-minded, tolerant and loving interpretation of
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  Jesus and the Bible. You've probably adopted some of its teachings and you don't even realize
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  it. That's coming up. Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues,
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  discerning current events, defending biblical Christianity. No topic, off limits. And
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  now, here's your host, David Firazzo. Hey friends, welcome. Get ready. This is so
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  good. I want to give you her website, Melissa Doherty.com. It's actually.co. The book is
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  called Happy Lies, How of Movement. You probably never heard of shaped our self-obsessed
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  world. Melissa is a Christian apologist best known for her YouTube channel and her videos,
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  which primarily cover new age and new thought. They've been viewed over 18 million times.
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  Melissa is highly regarded and connected in the apologetics community. She has had numerous
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  influential guests on her channel and is a frequent speaker and commentator on other YouTube
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  videos and podcasts. She's got a bachelor's degree in religious studies from Southern Evangelical
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  Seminary where she's also pursuing, pursuing her master's degree in religious studies.
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  She is married with two daughters, lives in New Mexico, Melissa. Thank you for your time
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  today. And thank you for this book. Yeah, thanks for having me on. Yeah, we talked before
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  we got on. There's so much in here. This is going to be really hard to condense, but we
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  prayed that God would just guide and lead us in what we need to share. So let's start
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  with the very beginning. I'm looking at some of the endorsements. These people, great
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  men and women of God. I've had them on this podcast, Jay Warner Wallace. I've talked
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  to Hillary Morgan Ferrer and Tasha Crane, Sean McDowell, Frank Turek, rock stars. And you're
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  in this group as well. So I thank you for all your work. I encourage people to go to
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  Melissa Doherty on YouTube, phenomenal YouTube channel. And you will be doing a deep dive
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  on Robert Shuler. And we'll get to that. That's chapter 10 in your book. But before we do
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  that, could you clarify what new thought is and what makes it different from new age?
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  Sure. Yes, this is the number one question I'm asked because it shouldn't be confused
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  with new age. And that was actually the epiphany I had that was part of the reason why I wrote
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  this book is that this is actually my spiritual background. I've thought I was an ex-new
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  age, but I'm technically an ex-new thotter. And yeah, there's a whole story behind that.
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  But it was when I realized what I was in looked more Christian early on when I got out of it,
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  when I thought it was new age, that's whatever I was in looked different than this over here,
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  than what people were asking me about. Like, oh, Melissa, you know, you're in the new age.
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  Tell me is raky new age. And my first answer was what's raky? You know what I mean? Like,
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  I understood tarot, tarot cards. I never would have thought yoga was new age.
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  Sacred geometry, geez, there was just so many transcendental meditation. There were so many
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  things that I'd never heard of. And I'm like, what was I in? You know, I just thought it was just
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  another element of new age. And then all these years go by and I realized, oh, no, these are
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  two different things. So in short, new age, most people are more familiar with. New age is more
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  recognizable in my opinion. And it's more of an outward kind of, you're doing outward things to
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  work on what's on the inside. So think of tarot cards, psychic mediums. You're doing, you know,
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  believe in karma, yoga, reincarnation, star seeds, light work, the list goes on and on.
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  There's so many there. It's, it's, I would say more recognizable in that regard. And it's more
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  eastern, think of eastern mysticism, like Buddhism or Hinduism. Okay. New thought is in its own
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  little bucket. Oh, and I should say there are some, there's some overlap here. So a lot of,
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  for example, the beginnings of new thought did begin with spirit contact, right? Like, there's
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  overlap there in that regard. But, but new thought is different when it comes to the history,
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  the origins and the movement and even the beliefs of what it stands for. And my point is that
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  new thought is more sinister because it's made to look Christian. It uses Christian terminology,
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  claims to be Christian and origin and is more gnostic in origin. Let me tell you a little bit about
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  what that means. So some things that would be new thought in, in belief and practice, manifestation,
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  visualization, the law of attraction, affirmations, the power of positive thinking, it draws on the
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  power of your mind to create your reality. There's power in your thoughts. There's power in your
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  words. And in fact, all the, there's so many scriptures that they'll use to say that you can
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  create your reality, like you are a co-creator with God. And the, the element of positive thinking,
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  though, is very big. Any word, in two words, I would say it's metaphysical Christianity. It's
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  just a better, more spiritual Christianity. In a sentence, I would say it's the positive thinking
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  movement in America with Jesus as its mascot. So those are the differences, the main differences
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  between the two where they overlap ultimately is the core belief that you are somehow divine,
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  that you are. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, there's, I wrote a whole book about it. So I mean, there's
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  more in the book. Well, many, many, many decades ago, one of the first books I picked up was Norman
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  Vincent Peel's The Power of Positive Thinking. And I got sucked right into that because I had read,
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  I wasn't a student of the Bible, but I read some scripture and I thought, wow, this is great,
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  because it's positive. So I hear a lot of similarities between the prosperity gospel, word,
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  faith, and new thought, because there's a lot of affirmations, a lot about visualizing and
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  creating things with your words. Do you, do you find there's, there's a hard distinction to make
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  between new thought and some of these others or 100% yes, okay, that's chapter eight. The whole
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  of chapter eight is the word of faith movement and the overlap of new thought teachings and it's,
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  it's a mixture. The word word of faith movement is a mixture of new thought, penicostalism,
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  and early faith cure movement teachings. And if you mix those together, you get the word of faith
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  movement. And the question is not, it's not if new thought teachings are in the word of faith
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  movement. That's not the question. The question is how did they get there? So I attempt to do that
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  in that chapter and I, I attempt to draw the lines back to new thought, prosperity,
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  declarations, little gods doctrine, and health teachings back to the origins being in new thought
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  specifically. So on page, well, I got the pages folded over here. Page nine, early in your book,
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  I love the version quote that discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong.
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  It is knowing the difference between right and almost right. And I think that's what you said earlier
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  in a way that there's subtleties to these deceptions. And they sound good and they sound like they
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  could be biblical and those that don't that maybe aren't mature in the word of God and in their
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  biblical studies might be sucked in like I was, you know, I was a Christian, but not a deep, not a
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  mature believer, not a student of the Bible at that time. And I got sucked right into this because
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  it's positive. It sounds good. Who wouldn't want that? So you say also that if it was a virus,
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  if new thought were a virus, chances are you'd be infected. So you're coming from the standpoint of
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  a lot of believers in today's church, particularly in America, probably have some understanding or
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  there's some influence of new thought in their theology and their lives. Explain that everywhere.
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  That's why it's a movement you've probably never heard of. If you've never heard of new thought,
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  I am confident enough to say that you have been exposed to it. You don't know what this is and you
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  know exactly what this is. And because we've seen it everywhere, it's secular and spiritual. In
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  fact, one of the biggest in the origins of the new thought movement, there was a, I want to say
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  church, but it's really not a religious science. The founder of religious science is Ernest Holmes.
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  And they wanted it to sound a certain way. This is like a mind science. This is a spirit science.
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  It's a better kind of Christianity, but it was very secular. Ernest Holmes wouldn't have necessarily
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  even adopted a lot of Christian terminology. It was the beliefs and the teachings of the power
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  of the mind. And then you have these two bleedovers. You have one that's really secular,
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  which I go into, but you're taking the power of the mind, affirmations, manifestation, or whatever,
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  your typical TikTok theology. But they don't call themselves Christians, but they'll say,
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  oh, yeah, Jesus taught this, but so did Buddha, right? But they wouldn't necessarily adhere to
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  Christianity. In that way, it's all over America. You're having these teachings that are on
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  the self-help section in every bookstore that we are attributing power to ourselves, you know,
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  however that looks. And then you have this other long stretch that is 100% in the Christian church.
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  And that's the, the other part of the book that I go over is where it's at in society and where
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  it's at in the church. So at some point, whether you're Christian or not, you have come face-to-face
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  head-to-head with new thought teachings without even realizing it. Friends, the book is available
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  on Melissa Doherty's website, but also five star reviews. It's kicking butt on Amazon. You can go
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  check that out. They're happy lies. How a movement you probably never heard of shaped our self-obsessed
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  world. Oh, my goodness. And iPhones don't help. Narcissism. Let's talk about chapter two briefly.
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  New thought old lies. The roots of today's toxic positivity. I was sharing something I was going
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  through in my life with a Christian brother. And this is a guide that I would say has the gift
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  of encouragement and means well. But when I shared with him, you know, just some of what was going
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  on my personal life and a trial that I was enduring, he looked at it as I was complaining. Because he
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  was always, you know, positive. You got to be positive. You just keep, you know, you're speaking
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  about it the wrong way. Don't confess that I'm going to wait a minute. That's that's not so I'm
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  making it worse. I'm I'm making my trial. I'm extending my own, you know, trial. So share your
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  thoughts on what chapter two, the toxic positivity, because I think a lot of people have run into another
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  believer, maybe well meaning or not, that is that kind of person. Yes. Oh, there's so much to say
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  on this. Because it has to be nuanced, right? Because they're coming from this. It's, you know,
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  they wouldn't even think of it as toxic positivity. They're thinking of it as you. Faith.
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  Yeah. Like faith being a power. Exactly. Yeah. Like there's, you got to have this, this unquestioning
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  faith and there's been a lot of really bad theology that has come from this idea that you're never
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  allowed to doubt what you're believing for. And there's something in the book where it's dubbed
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  critical thinking is negative thinking. And part of the problem with this whole movement. Okay.
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  The entire movement. In fact, there's a quote from this really dusty, new thought history book
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  that really helps kind of emphasize what I'm trying to say about critical thinking. Because
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  what ends up happening is that if you think that there's power in your mind and that that power
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  can create and it can make things happen, then you have to always control what you're thinking
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  about, which sounds good on the surface. But the problem is, is that say you get somebody like you
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  or me who comes and they starts, starts testing what you believe starts testing and asking good
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  questions. The first thing that typically happens is, oh, you're bad juju, you're bad energy.
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  Okay. So, and this is an origin in the movement where it builds on the concept of idealism,
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  which is just a way to look at truth where what you're thinking about because there's a material
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  realm and a, this is where it gets real nasty. There's a material realm and there's a physical realm.
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  And what you're thinking can bring forth stuff from the material from the physical realm into
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  the material realm. So, if there's something wrong in the physical, you have to bring it forth
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  from the spiritual. That's how you fix it. You fix it in the spiritual realm and how do you do that
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  through your thoughts, words and feelings? Well, if somebody's coming to you and they're bringing
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  forth different vibes that are messing up how you feel about something, then in you've been taught,
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  that needs to shut down. You need to get that out of your world. And so, this is why you have a
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  sense of isolation when it comes to these kinds of beliefs, but they actually think that there's
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  a level of power that they actually have. And this is actually part of the problem because we
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  don't have that much power. We don't, faith is really a trust. It's a contentment in whatever
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  happens and a trust in God that is steadfast no matter what happens. You know, and yeah, there's
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  a whole history about it. You have fathers in the movement, a manual Swedenborg, Phineas,
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  Quimby is probably the one that people mostly know. And he's been the one that's been credited,
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  so to speak, with taking it and making it really Christian. And he was the one who was really
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  teaching that you're not like, let's take sickness. That was the big thing at the time. It was sickness.
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  You're not actually sick. It's because you're, you're thinking wrong thoughts. And if you can
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  correct your thinking, you can correct your body based on the idealism that I was just telling
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  you before. And if I can find this quote, I'll read it to you. There's a whole thing that I have.
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  Oh, here it is. Okay. This is a quote from one of my dusty new thought books at the core of all,
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  this is what's called anti-nomeanism, which is just a word that literally means against law.
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  Okay. Against law, which means if people saw no moral laws that God expects Christians to obey,
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  then it's a free for all. We are, we are the authority because we can have individual direct
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  communication with God. This is one thing the movement was known for is there, you don't need to
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  go to the dusty, dusty Bible. You don't need to go to a priest. No, no, you can speak to God
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  individually. You can have that experience. He can speak to you. Okay. This caused a lot of
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  contempt for negative and critical thinking as this held them back from this personal experience
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  with God. Okay. So that's really where it is. That's that's part of the core issue. Again,
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  there's more to say on this. It's again, a whole chapter on this with the origins. But yeah,
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  that's that's basically what I would, I would say as far as that goes. Okay. There's some, we
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  have to take a brief pause and there's so many people that you talk about that I want to mention
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  because I'm I'm very familiar with most of them. And I think a lot of people that are watching
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  and listening are probably familiar with some of these as well. So we'll be right back with
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  Melissa Doherty, the book Happy Lies on World View Matters.
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  David Fioraza. So subscribe, follow us and thank you for that. Okay. So Melissa, before we get to
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  some of these names, some of these people that I think a lot of our audience would recognize. And
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  then get I want to get to Robert Shuler too. But this is going by way too fast. I know. I know.
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  Maybe we'll have to have you back up. But you know, you wrote something that you never shared
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  before. And I found that to be very interesting on identity crisis. And if you could just speak
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  briefly to that under who or what am I. You were 13 years old and tell that story because
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  I the way you set it up. And then you ended by saying, I know because this girl was me.
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  Wow. And if that was today, you probably would have been down the the hormones or surgeries
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  or doing something share a little bit about that. Please. Yeah. That was a very vulnerable thing to
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  share because I don't I don't particularly like talking about it. And so I'm like, here,
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  I'm going to I've never shared that right. And so here I'm here. I'm going to put it in a book.
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  But the point of it, the whole point was, okay, I'm seeing this gender crisis. But it's really an
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  identity crisis. And the problem is is that you're you're talking about new thought as a movement.
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  I wanted to see the bigger picture of all of this. And it was in reading Carl Truman's book.
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  I quote him a few times in the chapter, which by the way, this chapter was way geekier. And I had
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  a few people peer review it and they're like, bring it on back Melissa. I was like, it was so geeky
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  because I wanted to go into like romanticism and transcendentalism and the origins of these
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  movements and how new thought like developed this this inner knowing of identity. And it was
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  just real geeky. So, but it was in reading his yeah, it was in reading his book though. I'm reading
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  his book. And this is before I even wanted to write. And I'm thinking to myself, this sounds so
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  familiar. There's so many things he's saying about expressive individualism about the the roots
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  of the sexual identity crisis that we're having about following your heart about how the outside
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  of you is secondary to how you feel on the inside. All these things is just that the the where I
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  would have taken it and where I did take it was that it was beyond a social movement. It was what
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  was on the inside was divine, right? So, whatever's inside of you is not just comes first. It was that
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  this is God from within informing you of who you actually are. So, it puts forth why it might be
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  very difficult to talk with somebody that has an identity crisis going on. And in my case,
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  it wasn't just gender. I didn't feel I hated being a girl like it was not something I wanted to do.
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  So, it was more or less first it was envy. I envied boys. I wanted you know, I wasn't happy with
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  who I was or content in that. But I also had this spiritual worldview which I did not understand
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  at the time to be clear. I did not realize that these were spiritual beliefs called new thought. I
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  didn't get that at all. What I did know was whatever's in here is truly who I am. And so I'm building
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  on that and how those beliefs helped inform that identity crisis. And by the way, it goes beyond
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  gender. Okay, it went way beyond gender. There were I remember believing that there were like
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  multi-dimensions and beings that we could interact with that went beyond just the human body. So,
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  like this is where the trans species, the other can, which are if people don't know what that is,
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  trans species are people that believe that they identify as different species of animals. And then
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  other can gets real interesting because that's where you identify as like a fantasy creature.
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  You identify as a being that may not be even known to humanity because what's on here, what's
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  in here is informing me of my true identity, my true authentic self. And there's so much to say
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  on this. But the beliefs that new thought brings and this is why I start the book with relativism
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  is because you have to mess with what's true. If it's your truth, it goes beyond, yeah, it goes
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  beyond just like, oh, this is how I feel. No, no, no. This truth, capital T inside of me is divine,
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  is God and God must be obeyed. So I'm taking it to this whole other level of it's beyond sexual
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  identity. This is this is where it disconnects from reality, but that's not how they see it. So
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  and then I bring my story into it saying that these beliefs did not help.
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  Well, I think it's relatable to a lot of people, whether it's their children or someone they know
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  with the identity crisis, but you mentioned friends, Anton Mezber and Mezmerize and
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  Hypnotherapy. You mentioned Ralph Waldo Emerson. Emerson was a big one in that chapter too.
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  Yeah. Phineas Emerson is huge. Mary Baker Eddie, you mentioned the Unity Church. Oh my goodness,
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  there's so much to get into, but I bought a copy of Think and Grow Rich, Napoleon Hill,
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  and you talk about him as well. Is that where Christ consciousness came from?
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  No, actually, I had to do a little deep dive on this myself. Napoleon Hill, I actually just
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  said a deep dive on him. You mean Christ's consciousness with new thought? Yes. Yes, yeah,
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  that's, I'm surprised I didn't mention that earlier. Christ's consciousness is a new thought
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  term. Yes. Because most of us just heard that when Oprah first was talking about, you know,
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  what's Christ's consciousness? I made a deep dive about her because she's not a new ageur.
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  If you want to look at the face of new thought, look at Oprah Winfrey. Yeah, she is what she
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  believes because she read new thought authors. Christ's consciousness is probably the most popular
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  metaphysical term I could think of as far as metaphysical Christianity because there's a metaphysical
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  definition with Christ. We hear that and we think Messiah anointed one, but they separate Jesus
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  and Christ, where Jesus is a man, a human just like us, and Christ is the dormant inner divinity
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  within humanity that he obtained. He became conscious of it, and so can you? This is also where I
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  am affirmations come from. It's new thought prayer. You're speaking in the affirmative,
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  you're creating your reality by speaking in the affirmative. And so, yeah, Christ's consciousness
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  is probably one of the biggest new thought terms out there. So let's jump to now. We have four minutes
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  left. I live in Southern California for 17 years. I lived in Anaheim for a little bit, five minutes
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  from the Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove, Robert Schuhler. Now, friends, if you don't know this
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  history, this is him in part influenced the corporate model for churches, business aspect of churches,
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  the pastors, the CEO, the secret sensitive, you know, the mega church. He went door to door and
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  asked people in that community, how could I get you to church? What would you, what kind of church
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  would you go to and talk about a recipe for getting away from the Bible, right? So share your
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  thoughts on that. You call it the Schuhler secret and the church growth movement you talk about.
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  So huge today. Yeah. Yeah, the original title to that chapter was the secret sensitive
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  secret centered secret. And I differentiate, I actually think there's a difference between
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  like secret sensitive and secret centered and, you know, whatever. But most people recognize
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  it as secret sensitive. And Robert Schuhler is, he is a new thought pastor. And I think people
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  are surprised to hear that. But I think it emphasizes my point of how stealthy this really was,
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  because Robert Schuhler was mentored by Norman Vincent Peele, who was also a new thought pastor,
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  which again, people are surprised to hear. But again, that's my point. You had the positive thinking,
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  the possibility thinking, and what Robert Schuhler was trying to do in essence, and what I saw is
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  that he made a business model to grow a church. And it really worked. Yeah, it really worked.
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  And it catered to the non-believer. And it got them through the doors. And they heard a motivational
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  message that gave them great life advice that kept them coming back. And yeah, and so there was
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  this, you don't want, you want to get away from certain traditional things. And but what's
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  here's what's worse? Okay, here's my, here's my issue with Schuhler, and why there's even a
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  chapter about him. He's a new thought pastor, okay, who had a very big reach when it came to
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  not just the people that went to his church and who watched him on TV, but he had a direct
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  mentorship relationship with some of the most popular pastors in America who took that model
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  and his methods. And I'm not saying that they agreed necessarily with his beliefs, but they never
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  actually say that's they never, you know, I think that they've distanced themselves as far as some,
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  some of that goes. But they definitely took his methods and took it and made the church into
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  what it is today that the church growth model. It's a business model. And it really does work.
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  Okay, it really does work. But what you win them with, you win them too. And you have to keep doing
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  what you've been doing to keep people in the door. It's like the big, the front doors are just as
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  big as the back doors. And I'm talking about that topic head on because the question that I'm asking,
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  the number one question is, is this biblical? Is, is what Rob, how much did new, did Robert Schuhler's
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  new thought beliefs inform that model? And how much of it is actually doing more harm than good?
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  Is sure, I think that there's some aspects of it that can be redeemed. And I think I wrote a very fair
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  chapter in this regard of doing the pros and cons of the church growth model of the seeker sensitive
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  model. However, the question, we have to have this conversation, how much did Robert Schuhler's beliefs
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  inform the actual function and what this was for of this model? Because you can't sit there and say,
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  hey, the fact that we're growing means that we're being blessed by God. And you have to look at
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  the theology, you have to look at the pulpit. And so, yeah, I ask those hard questions in that chapter.
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  Thank you, Melissa. We ran out of time already with you. I knew it would go by fast. There was so
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  much more we wanted to talk about. But happy lies, friends, is the book very helpful. In fact,
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  what you just shared on that balance of, you know, the corporate model seeker sensitive churches.
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  But Melissa, do already God bless you. I wish you good success. And God will continue to enlarge your
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  territory. Thanks for your time today. Thank you for your time. Thanks for having me on.
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  You're most welcome. Friends, get the book. Happy lies. You'll learn a lot and you'll probably go,
• 27:41
  wow, that's what I was thinking. That's what I think, you know, whatever. Praise God.
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  It's just these go by very, very fast, but hopefully they're helpful to the body of Christ.
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  God bless you. And as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter.