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Transcript

How Many Dudes? · Awoken Game Club Podcast

0:02
SPEAKER_00: What's going on, Patrick?
0:04
SPEAKER_01: Heyo, what's going on?
0:06
SPEAKER_00: This is our second game in a row that ends in a punctuation.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: Not sure if you knew that.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: Just wanted to bring that to your attention.
0:16
SPEAKER_01: Okay, punctuation meaning like, oh, like the actual title.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: I thought you were talking about like the Zoomer term when they're like,
0:22
SPEAKER_01: when they end their sentences with period.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: Oh, no, no, no.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm a little disappointed that our next game does not have a period,
0:33
SPEAKER_00: semicolon, exclamation point or question mark because we had a nice streak going.
0:37
SPEAKER_01: Well, whose fault is that?
0:39
SPEAKER_00: It's mine.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: I chose.
0:41
SPEAKER_01: I can't remember if I suggested any.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: No, it's me.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: I just, what's, is PT in a period?
0:47
SPEAKER_00: Or is that, there's no punctuation on that game?
0:50
SPEAKER_01: I think there's punctuation.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: There has to be punctuation on those.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: Do you think that's dating us now, right?
0:58
SPEAKER_00: PT, that's not a cultural phenomenon like it might have been 10 years ago?
1:02
SPEAKER_01: No, that's definitely dating us because anything beyond 10 years is absolutely dated.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Out of the reach of the youth's playable teaser.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: Man, that's too bad.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: Well, welcome.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: This is Awoken Game Club.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: If you're joining us for the first time, this is a monthly video game book club.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: We play indie games that strike our fancy and then debrief,
1:27
SPEAKER_00: debate, and celebrate after playing throughout the month.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: Follow us on Substack to get notifications, see Patrick's art, and chat with us.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: Our game next month is Esoteric Ebb, question mark, period.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: Apostrophe.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: And each and every Awoken Game Club is going to be packed full of spoilers.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: This game, I don't think you need to worry about.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: But in general,
1:50
SPEAKER_00: we will discuss spoilers like any book club where all
1:53
SPEAKER_00: the attendees have had their time with the book or the game.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: And then the episodes are evergreen.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about how many dudes,
2:00
SPEAKER_00: which I believe you presented the suggestions and then I picked it this month.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: I picked it because I love roguelike auto builders.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: I think that genre is blowing up.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: How did you find this game?
2:19
SPEAKER_01: I think much like a lot of the games we looked through,
2:22
SPEAKER_01: this one came up through my Steam recommendations, just the daily roulette queue.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: I was hearing something about a new Steam calendar discovery tool.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: Have you heard
2:35
SPEAKER_01: about that?
2:36
SPEAKER_01: I haven't heard about it,
2:37
SPEAKER_01: but Steam is doing like when it releases,
2:40
SPEAKER_01: there's like a top two releases of this day.
2:46
SPEAKER_01: And it does look almost like not necessarily an advent calendar,
2:50
SPEAKER_01: but it looks like a calendar and it's got like two thumbnails of games.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: It's pretty cool.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I haven't seen that calendar view.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's like a way to look at upcoming releases with a personal calendar.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's been around for like a year.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I haven't used that.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: I need to use that.
3:08
SPEAKER_01: So when you picked this, were you familiar with the meme that this game is clearly based off of?
3:14
SPEAKER_00: Is it the Reddit, would you rather fight one duck-sized horse or a hundred horse-sized ducks?
3:21
SPEAKER_00: I think I have that backwards.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: Is that the meme or is there another meme?
3:24
SPEAKER_01: I think so.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: I think that's maybe even an older version.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: So I think I did a little bit of research in 2025, which this was actually based in 2020.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: There was a viral conversation where it is a similar comparison,
3:40
SPEAKER_01: but it was one silverback gorilla versus 100 dudes.
3:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I remember that one.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: That's actually a really good one.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: So who you got?
3:51
SPEAKER_00: The gorilla.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: A thousand percent.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: So I did the Google AI thing,
3:57
SPEAKER_01: and Google AI said it would be 100 dudes, but I also believe in the gorilla.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: We don't know the constitution of these dudes.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: We don't know their fear.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: Is it Harambe?
4:07
SPEAKER_00: What gorilla specimen are we?
4:10
SPEAKER_00: R.I.P.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I had heard of the developer.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: So Butterscotch Shenanigans has been around a long time.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: So long that when I was making my game in
4:26
SPEAKER_00: 2020, I guess it was.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: If you're in our game dev subreddit or your YouTube algorithm is tuned
4:36
SPEAKER_00: for developer devlogs or Twitter back before Twitter got ruined,
4:41
SPEAKER_00: these developers were kind of like...
4:45
SPEAKER_00: They have a podcast, they have a YouTube channel.
4:49
SPEAKER_00: I think it's founded by three brothers.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of the heroes of indie developers are not just
4:57
SPEAKER_00: the massive successes like Concerned Ape or Lethal Company,
5:04
SPEAKER_00: but the people that never have a big hit,
5:06
SPEAKER_00: but are able to do it sustainably as a career.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like this developer...
5:12
SPEAKER_00: is a perfect example of that, where they've had modest success.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: I think they've got 10 games, at least.
5:19
SPEAKER_01: On the Steam page,
5:20
SPEAKER_01: they had four,
5:21
SPEAKER_01: and most of them were, I think, at least 1,000 reviews, and they were all positive.
5:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think they've got some mobile games.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: One, two, three.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: I see eight on their website.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, they've been around.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: So like...
5:39
SPEAKER_00: Definitely respect for them for giving back to the community
5:44
SPEAKER_00: and I hope this game is their biggest hit yet.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: It sure looks
5:50
SPEAKER_01: that way.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: With that being said, what did you think about how many dudes?
5:57
SPEAKER_01: I think I enjoyed it.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: My first opinion on it was in my notes I have it labeled as Idol Battler.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: When I think it's technically an auto-battler, but the way it plays is a little idol-ish.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: Super idol-ish.
6:15
SPEAKER_01: It is very, the decisions you make aren't, I don't think, very impactful.
6:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: Other than the dude selection, those first five dudes that you get.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: But that being said, everything else, I really like the art style.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: I actually thought it was quite polished for what it was throwing at the screen.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: We've talked about this a lot in some of these types of games,
6:40
SPEAKER_01: whether it be Ball Pit or any kind of...
6:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to say timing games,
6:46
SPEAKER_01: but if there's a lot of stuff on the screen, it's got to run well.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think this game ran pretty well.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: And I think it was fun, especially those first few ones.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: But the...
6:57
SPEAKER_01: Overall, the idol started to kick in.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: Again, they seem like really nice people.
7:09
SPEAKER_00: I want to be positive.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: There's a charitable way to look at this game and there's a critical way of looking
7:14
SPEAKER_00: at this game.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: For me, I think it's very hard to look at it charitably because I love this genre so much.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: I want this genre to be successful.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: I think it I think it already is kind of becoming the next roguelike deck builder,
7:29
SPEAKER_00: these roguelike auto battlers,
7:31
SPEAKER_00: because there's actually quite a few coming out right now.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: Guildrun made a lot of Splash, the Bazaar.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot that I haven't even played,
7:40
SPEAKER_00: Turnbound, kind of strategic roguelike building kind of an army.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: But I really did not like this game.
7:50
SPEAKER_00: I think I played like five hours.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: And I think what bothered me so much was that,
7:57
SPEAKER_00: and I think maybe they are just taking the piss and like,
8:01
SPEAKER_00: it can just be a meme game.
8:03
SPEAKER_00: But I felt...
8:05
SPEAKER_00: Like I wasted my time every time I was,
8:08
SPEAKER_00: like I finished, I would play like an hour a night maybe for like five nights.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: And I felt like I had just been scrolling on my phone for an hour.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: Like just be an idle game.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: Like just do that if you're gonna, like don't be a strategic idle game.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: Like those two things, those two words should not form into a genre, right?
8:26
SPEAKER_00: Like it's the...
8:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: Never had to make a consequential decision.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: Always gambled all my money.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: And then I lost on the final boss.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: Like, hard.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: I also think the skill curve is really bad.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: It shouldn't get difficult later.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: And I know there's later...
9:16
SPEAKER_00: Like ascensions, right?
9:17
SPEAKER_00: You can make it harder, but by the time, but the runs are so long.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: I can't, there's some other game that's like this where I'm like,
9:26
SPEAKER_00: Why are the runs an hour long?
9:28
SPEAKER_00: And the fights themselves, Rant is starting.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's been here.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: But they're not fun to watch.
9:36
SPEAKER_00: There's no tug and pull.
9:37
SPEAKER_00: There's no nuance.
9:39
SPEAKER_00: I don't think using the abilities feels meaningful.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: It just feels like you're spamming abilities in an MMO.
9:47
SPEAKER_00: There's no subplot happening on the battlefield.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: Oh, what's going on over here?
9:54
SPEAKER_00: It's all just like a big flashy mess that takes too long also.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: The fight takes too long.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: The run takes too long.
10:03
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, go ahead.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: Just to tack on one thing that you had mentioned is I agree
10:11
SPEAKER_01: the fights were not very fun to watch.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: And that wasn't even in my notes because what I did say was what I'll call fun to watch.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm doing air quotes listeners.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: But I was mostly watching the health bars on the top left.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: I was watching them go up and down like a music algorithm.
10:29
SPEAKER_01: And that kind of does hearken to...
10:33
SPEAKER_01: The infinite scrolling, the numbers go up, the idle clicker.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: You're just like watching, making sure the numbers stabilize, watching them go down.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: And that's like where all of your quote decision making will be is like,
10:45
SPEAKER_01: do I need to use dude juice or the equalizing thing?
10:49
SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't that doesn't feel great.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't it's not like,
10:53
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:53
SPEAKER_01: we play a lot of TFT and you're and you're watching the board
10:56
SPEAKER_01: to see how your position held up.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: You are just watching your health bars and making sure they don't go down
11:02
SPEAKER_01: a certain threshold,
11:04
SPEAKER_01: which honestly,
11:05
SPEAKER_01: there could have been an item to just be like if, you know, anyways, it doesn't.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, too much idle, too much idle in this game.
11:13
SPEAKER_00: Too much idol,
11:14
SPEAKER_00: too many,
11:14
SPEAKER_00: like at some point I've just got like 40 relics and I don't know,
11:19
SPEAKER_00: I just didn't feel, I thought I would feel all powerful like Ball Pit, right?
11:24
SPEAKER_00: Like Ball Pit is that idol power fantasy, but Ball Pit is fun to watch.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: It's like got better progression.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: It has more style, has more creativity.
11:40
SPEAKER_00: I think Ball Pit is a better version of an idle roguelike thing.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: I will say there is no shortage though of interactions and math that is churning in
11:54
SPEAKER_01: the background.
11:56
SPEAKER_01: The mechanics don't feel great I think as a player to...
12:02
SPEAKER_01: Enable them,
12:03
SPEAKER_01: enact them,
12:04
SPEAKER_01: but with all of the different things,
12:06
SPEAKER_01: like honestly,
12:07
SPEAKER_01: even on one of the dudes,
12:08
SPEAKER_01: you would like right click and like try to go into like all the different things
12:13
SPEAKER_01: that it's doing where it's like this creature becomes a revenant at 20 stacks and
12:19
SPEAKER_01: then they get 25% cleave, which blocks 10%.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: There's definitely a lot of stats going on, but honestly...
12:27
SPEAKER_01: You kind of like you'd mentioned, you just throw it at the wall.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: You picked your five dudes.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: Of course, you're going to buy the cool sounding relic every round.
12:35
SPEAKER_01: And then after that, it becomes an idle game.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: Actually, that's a good thing to put.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: The drafting of the dudes is the best part of this game.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: And it finishes like six minutes into the run.
12:49
SPEAKER_00: It does.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: Because like, I think for me who plays a lot of these, I could kind of see what I needed, right?
12:55
SPEAKER_00: I needed one AoE dude.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: I needed one healing dude.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: I needed one single target damage dude.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: So like, okay,
13:04
SPEAKER_00: so once I could Once I have a roster that can have AoE to take care of the fights
13:11
SPEAKER_00: that have a bunch of smaller guys but single target damage for the main guys and
13:15
SPEAKER_00: then sustain in some form of Vampiric or healing to sustain the fights and
13:23
SPEAKER_00: then maybe one or two fun ones.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: I enjoyed having to build that roster to be successful but once you
13:35
SPEAKER_01: Once that's done, you're just drafting who your highest DPS is or what your best relic is.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: So that was a good part of the game.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: I wish I could explore how many dudes they created more each run because there's
13:50
SPEAKER_00: so much content in this game.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go ahead.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: No,
13:55
SPEAKER_01: I think the one part I might add to that because it actually felt like a decision
14:01
SPEAKER_01: that mattered that happened maybe towards the end of the game.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: At the end of the boss fight, you could get like a bound relic.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: One that would like you would get three options and you could bind it to one dude.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: And those also felt a little more decision making because one in Depending on
14:23
SPEAKER_01: which dudes you had, it could be...
14:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to think of some good examples,
14:27
SPEAKER_01: but that was one of the decision-making other than the drafting of the dudes
14:32
SPEAKER_01: that actually felt like a real decision other than a cheap kind
14:36
SPEAKER_01: of risk versus reward.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: There was so little...
14:42
SPEAKER_00: Interesting decisions between fights.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think what was,
14:46
SPEAKER_00: wasn't one of our games of the month, what was that turn-based
14:55
SPEAKER_00: Ed McMillan game?
14:57
SPEAKER_01: Mugenics.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: Mugenics, yeah.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: I feel like that game also,
15:01
SPEAKER_00: I criticized for not having interesting encounters and question marks compared
15:05
SPEAKER_00: to something like Slate the Spire,
15:06
SPEAKER_00: but that game was like,
15:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm way ahead of this game in terms of interesting decisions.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: I just never found a scenario where betting all my money...
15:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know... That's the thing about the power curve.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: The power curve in this game is so weird.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: I played for,
15:25
SPEAKER_00: I guess,
15:25
SPEAKER_00: like five hours and I lost on the last fight a couple times because
15:31
SPEAKER_00: the first time I got caught sleeping.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: I didn't use an item the whole fight and...
15:39
SPEAKER_00: I realized that I needed to on that last fight, but it was too late.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: Half my team was just dead instantly.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: There's no tension of barely winning a fight and then picking the perfect synergy
15:49
SPEAKER_00: or power-up to stay ahead of that difficulty curve.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: That's what something like Guild Run does, where...
15:56
SPEAKER_00: Every decision,
15:57
SPEAKER_00: like you almost lose every fight and then you have to make the right choice
16:02
SPEAKER_00: between fights so that you can almost lose the next fight instead of losing
16:06
SPEAKER_00: the next fight.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: So the whole like 30 minute run, which again is like shorter than this game, I think too.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: There's a tension of staying ahead of what the game's going to throw at you next.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: And this game had none of that.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm just always just being as greedy as possible,
16:25
SPEAKER_00: picking the hardest fights,
16:27
SPEAKER_00: buying as much relics, always lending a relic to get another relic.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: I just think that the...
16:34
SPEAKER_00: They needed to,
16:35
SPEAKER_00: I think the balance is off because then I should be,
16:38
SPEAKER_00: if that's how I'm playing it, I should win every run.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: Because I never had an issue until room 105 after an hour of playing.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: All of a sudden it gets hard as hell.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: Like it was so bizarre how I'm just not, it just didn't work for me.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: I was like, this is weird.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: This is weird.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I always felt that if I'm playing a run and I don't pick the last ones,
17:09
SPEAKER_01: well then the run was chalked from the beginning.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: It's just like, well then this is a dumb run, it's not worth going.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: I really like that idea of that, I don't want to call it desperation of scraping by.
17:23
SPEAKER_01: That can't happen in this game because if you do barely scrape by, you're down like 70 dudes.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: And you're just like, well,
17:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't have enough dude juice probably to do this like multiple times in a row.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: And basically I was just like, well, the whole run's chalked.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: So let me just not care.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's not really a comeback mechanic in this game.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
17:45
SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
17:46
SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize until the third run that you could reorder the dudes on
17:49
SPEAKER_00: the left side.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: Because I remember there's some relics that are like,
17:53
SPEAKER_00: your first dude gets this, or the bottom dude.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: I was like, that was a little bit clunky.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think those were my main opinions on it.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I really did like the art style.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: The humor was fun.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean, just the whole concept of the toddlers was just absolutely insane.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: Ultimately didn't really like go beyond that, like in terms of the humor and the funnies.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: I wish this
18:22
SPEAKER_01: game was funnier.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: Like if you're not going to have strategic depth,
18:27
SPEAKER_00: be funnier to like have more like weird fights that are not just ducks and gorillas
18:36
SPEAKER_00: and I don't know, or make them.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: Explode and fart gas or something.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: Just be weirder.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: I wish it was a little bit weirder.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: But since I was...
18:48
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: Did you ever use the transportation phone?
18:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a little bit.
18:56
SPEAKER_00: Did you feel like it did anything?
18:59
SPEAKER_00: No.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: I mean, not really.
19:00
SPEAKER_00: I used it for the...
19:04
SPEAKER_00: The 25% health temp health that you got from it
19:08
SPEAKER_00: but I felt like I would always use it later in the fight when
19:10
SPEAKER_00: the camera was like super zoomed in and then I was like well I can't even.
19:14
SPEAKER_00: Move them that far.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: They're just circling around the boss.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: I have a note here
19:19
SPEAKER_00: that says, okay, I'm actually so tilted.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: My second run,
19:24
SPEAKER_00: went the entire run fighting elites,
19:26
SPEAKER_00: breathed through it for a full hour, almost never lost a single dude.
19:31
SPEAKER_00: I think maybe only one or two dudes died the whole time.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: Beat the first four bosses without losing a single dude.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: And then got absolutely crushed by the final boss.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: Like clearly I was lacking something.
19:44
SPEAKER_00: But like that shouldn't happen.
19:46
SPEAKER_00: Like why are there five bosses?
19:49
SPEAKER_00: Like why do you need five bosses if the first four are just like all appetizers?
19:55
SPEAKER_00: Like I don't need four appetizers for the really hard fight.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: Also, the bosses don't even feel that distinct from normal
20:03
SPEAKER_01: because there are even normal encounters with conditions added on top or,
20:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
20:10
SPEAKER_01: they have statuses or even like there's like one or two big boys and like four,
20:16
SPEAKER_01: like even the five boss gauntlet run didn't feel that different than just like
20:21
SPEAKER_01: the normal runs.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: Especially if you're picking
20:25
SPEAKER_00: elites, yeah.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: You're picking elites,
20:28
SPEAKER_01: and at that point,
20:29
SPEAKER_01: you've gone through 100 bouts already,
20:33
SPEAKER_01: so it really did feel like you were just going through the motions,
20:39
SPEAKER_01: and it really sucks.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like my third, fourth,
20:41
SPEAKER_00: and fifth run,
20:43
SPEAKER_00: I was just clicking through as fast as I could on 1.5 speed,
20:47
SPEAKER_00: just trying to get to the end.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: Because it's like, yeah, 50 minutes of, for me, watching...
20:56
SPEAKER_00: These dudes smack each other and I'm, yeah.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: I just, I wanted interesting fights to watch.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: I wanted harder strategic decisions.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: I wanted better progression through a run.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: I want a better progression outside of the run.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: I wanted, um, yeah, I just want a lot more from, from this.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: I think, uh, as an incremental and idler, uh,
21:22
SPEAKER_01: It functions pretty well.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: I think with... Don't you have to click a lot
21:26
SPEAKER_00: more though than a true idler?
21:28
SPEAKER_00: Depends.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: Because... That's true.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: I've not played a lot of idle games.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: I've played... For viewers, I've played...
21:37
SPEAKER_01: I've got like probably...
21:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't even want to check how many hours I have in cookie clicker.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: But you obviously get more cookies if you're the one actually clicking.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: But you've also got automatic clickers going.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: And mods that also...
21:55
SPEAKER_01: Mimic actual clicking.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: It's a whole thing.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: But yes, this does require more clicking.
21:59
SPEAKER_01: But I guess in terms of some of it,
22:02
SPEAKER_01: what it tried to capture is as you completed a run and how far you got,
22:09
SPEAKER_01: you ranked up the talismans.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: And so for me,
22:14
SPEAKER_01: there's the internal drive of as I was Playing and I was I saw a talisman
22:20
SPEAKER_01: that didn't have a gold star.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: I was like intentionally choosing that one.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's a it's a late I don't know.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: Lazy sounds like such a cruel word,
22:29
SPEAKER_01: but it does feel like lazy progression that makes brain feel good sometimes
22:34
SPEAKER_01: to like get as many things to gold as possible.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they had that.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: And like, I don't even yeah, no, that's fair.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm looking at the popular user-defined tags,
22:44
SPEAKER_00: and its strategy is number one,
22:47
SPEAKER_00: then roguelike, then simulation, then indie, single-player,
22:54
SPEAKER_00: and 2D.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of a real theme of our book club is expectations matter.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of these games, because we're picking part of our...
23:09
SPEAKER_00: Charter for ourselves is to play games we might not normally play,
23:13
SPEAKER_00: get out of our comfort zone,
23:15
SPEAKER_00: try new things,
23:16
SPEAKER_00: try experimental things,
23:18
SPEAKER_00: which means I think both of us are,
23:20
SPEAKER_00: or I'll speak for myself,
23:22
SPEAKER_00: playing things that I don't know much about,
23:24
SPEAKER_00: like Dench Attack and Promise Mascot Agency and this.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: So like,
23:28
SPEAKER_00: I think it's, yeah,
23:33
SPEAKER_00: just, Don't judge a book by its cover, but I don't know what the right metaphor is.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
23:41
SPEAKER_00: if I had known this game was not as strategic as I thought it was going to be,
23:47
SPEAKER_00: maybe I have a different read on it.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: I say that would be fair because,
23:55
SPEAKER_01: and this could be outing myself a little bit, but I was definitely...
24:01
SPEAKER_01: Had this game playing on one screen and like watching TV on the other.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: See, yeah, then you don't feel, dude, yes.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: That is what happened.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: That's what should, this is a podcast game.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like that's what I, or like, I've heard that phrase float around.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: Because yeah,
24:20
SPEAKER_00: if I was watching a cool YouTube video or something while playing this,
24:24
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't feel like I was wasting an hour.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: Bro, I was crushing my backlog playing this game.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: 20 episodes, 30 minutes to an hour can get by you.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: So, and like if that's,
24:36
SPEAKER_00: like some games need to fit that niche where you just want to vibe out at your desk,
24:42
SPEAKER_00: watch some things, play some things, click some things.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
24:45
SPEAKER_00: like total good example of kind of if I had known that, well,
24:50
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't have picked the game for the Game of the Month Club,
24:56
SPEAKER_00: but I would have maybe figured out a different way to engage with it.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know,
25:01
SPEAKER_01: because sometimes it's like going in blind is nice,
25:04
SPEAKER_01: but also having set expectations is also nice.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: But I do think maybe different lifestyles, life stages can change that.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: But I'm pretty blind every time I go in.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: And I think you are too.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I am.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: At least in the past few conversations.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: I don't think of all, I mean, we've played 10 games now.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: The type of gamer I was before this book club,
25:30
SPEAKER_00: I would have just fallen back on my comfort games.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't think I would have played a single one of these 10 games, which is cool.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: Like, because I want to play all these games and like,
25:43
SPEAKER_00: and I am just going in more blind because they're They're out there.
25:47
SPEAKER_00: They're different for XYZ reasons.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: This is good.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: My last note, too, is that the best version of this game is Vampire Survivors.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: Tons of enemies on screen.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: Kind of like a lot of kind of
26:12
SPEAKER_00: idle-esque kind of some micro decisions being made
26:16
SPEAKER_00: between level ups or whatever.
26:19
SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
26:20
SPEAKER_00: I just think Ball Pit and Vampire Survivors are two games that I enjoyed and
26:30
SPEAKER_00: kind
26:30
SPEAKER_00: of are better versions of kind of that idle strategic mashup thing.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: Do you think?
26:39
SPEAKER_01: No.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: Because a part of me is like, what does this game look?
26:43
SPEAKER_01: What could this game look like if we like change the genre a little bit?
26:46
SPEAKER_01: Like, do you think there's ever a world where this game could have existed as like?
26:53
SPEAKER_01: You've told me a few of the idle.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: No, sorry.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm saying it now.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: The auto battlers that are offline.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: Like the bizarre, I think you said is offline, but it's still technically PvP.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, does this game potentially end for a world where it becomes like a PvP?
27:09
SPEAKER_01: Not that they would do it, but does it have any legs for that?
27:15
SPEAKER_00: It would, yeah.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: I think that would be pretty cool.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: I think part of why it might not work as well is there's not as much
27:27
SPEAKER_00: expression
27:28
SPEAKER_00: that you can do by building an army.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: I think the games like the Bazaar...
27:34
SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of games like it.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: Super Auto Pets, I think was one.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot more consequential tweaks that you can make to your deck,
27:47
SPEAKER_00: your army,
27:47
SPEAKER_00: versus in this game,
27:48
SPEAKER_00: it's the main consequences, the ratio, the five that you choose and then the ratios.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: But no, I think it would be more compelling.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: I would be more invested in how the fights went.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: I think that's not a bad idea.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: I feel like, remember like,
28:06
SPEAKER_00: Darkest Dungeon did that?
28:08
SPEAKER_01: I never played Darkest Dungeon 2.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: No, the multiplayer DLC for the first one.
28:16
SPEAKER_01: So I never actually played the multiplayer DLC.
28:19
SPEAKER_01: I don't even think I played any of the DLC.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: We did play it.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: We played it with our friend...
28:25
SPEAKER_00: I won't say their name.
28:27
SPEAKER_01: Oh, we did.
28:27
SPEAKER_01: That was like one time.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: It was a cool spin on it.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: It didn't necessarily change our relationship with Darkest Dungeon.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: I think that's an example of maybe they could do something like that.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: At the end of a fight, save your army and challenge your friend.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: I think that would be sick.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: That's a good idea.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
28:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm forcing basically everything that we've learned with TFT and the little time
29:00
SPEAKER_01: that I've had with Super Auto Pets.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: But you set the resources in the stage and you're allowed
29:08
SPEAKER_01: to either pick more different dudes or add different quantities of
29:15
SPEAKER_01: a dude you already have.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: And you just at each stage basically turn this game into Super Auto Pets.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think what Super Auto Pets,
29:24
SPEAKER_00: Guild Run, TFT, Mechabellum, Bazaar, all of these games, I think positioning is...
29:33
SPEAKER_00: A huge part of them.
29:34
SPEAKER_00: Like huge.
29:35
SPEAKER_00: All of those games,
29:37
SPEAKER_00: how you position your deck,
29:39
SPEAKER_00: your army,
29:40
SPEAKER_00: whatever you want to call it, has a massive impact on how the fight unfolds.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: And this game made the conscious choice not to do that.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: So I think the simulation aspect of it lends itself.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: It's more casual.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: It's a little bit easy.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: It's easier to play while watching a show.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: It's more idle.
29:59
SPEAKER_00: But I think that...
30:01
SPEAKER_00: If you want it to feel strategic,
30:05
SPEAKER_00: it's harder to fill that gap when you've taken away the positional aspect of it.
30:09
SPEAKER_00: And I think they could have leaned into the items as like a thing
30:14
SPEAKER_00: that could have made the game more strategic,
30:17
SPEAKER_00: but it would have made it a different game.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: I think they really wanted that like simulation aspect and low.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: This would be a great like if they want to port this to iPad or mobile.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: I think it is.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: It is on mobile.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: It feels like a mobile game, especially like how it's like Clash of Clans or whatever.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, maybe again, like if I had known that, I would have played it on mobile, right?
30:45
SPEAKER_00: Like if I had a commute,
30:47
SPEAKER_00: that's how I played our game of the month this month was I just played it
30:50
SPEAKER_00: on my commute kind of thing.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: Did you try any of the higher difficulties or any of the other preset game modes?
31:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I started the higher difficulty and I was like, no, I'm done.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, this doesn't change.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, you made it a little harder.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: But I'm I've already frustrated by the run like by the really long run length, honestly.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like I don't if the strategic decisions aren't like,
31:20
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, maybe they would become more.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: It feels like it's kind of a snow, like you said, you're either won or you're lost.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: You're either snowballing or you're not.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: I just, I really...
31:33
SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to watch any more fights.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: I was like, I don't want to watch it anymore.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: I think there were so many cool dudes.
31:40
SPEAKER_00: Like you said,
31:41
SPEAKER_00: I loved reading their descriptions and all of these crazy capabilities
31:46
SPEAKER_00: that they have, but I could not parse any of that in a single fight.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: It was so hard to parse the cool things that they were doing,
31:55
SPEAKER_00: except for I think I had wizards that were Firing crazy lightning bolts all over
32:01
SPEAKER_00: the place,
32:02
SPEAKER_00: but I'm sure there's some cool late game stuff, but I didn't want to get there.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I do think it's unfortunate because I will say the UI after the game...
32:15
SPEAKER_01: Or the match was over was sometimes important to see like which of my dudes are dealing damage.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: Which ones do I want?
32:21
SPEAKER_01: If I have like two damage dealers, which one?
32:24
SPEAKER_01: But I will say what you don't know is how much a certain artifact or
32:29
SPEAKER_01: a cool interaction is actually doing for you.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: So like some of the interactions that I have like noted here is like when
32:38
SPEAKER_01: or I guess maybe some of the interactions are easier to see than others.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: But one of them was like if you teleport or like One dude will teleport another dude.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: And then the item is if it gets teleported, it like zaps three enemies.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: But you don't actually know like how much the zap is doing.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: So do you invest more in the teleporting dudes to proc the zap more?
32:59
SPEAKER_01: You're kind of just like going on a leap of faith.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: So it's not very well guided.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: And it's unfortunate because some of those things are cool and they sound cool on paper.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: And I also, like, I kept thinking, is this game in early access?
33:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, because it feels like it should be, but I don't think it is.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: I really, they could have done way, like, the relic system feels just like the ball pit.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: Was it the...
33:29
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think 75% of the relics were just simple stat pluses.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: Like, 5% more crit, 10% more attack speed, 10% more omnivamp.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: Like, it felt like...
33:50
SPEAKER_00: Too many of them were just stat changes that made no noticeable or tangible.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, you want to pick the one that fits your deficit, but they weren't interesting.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: And then in the shop,
34:05
SPEAKER_00: every time you see one that buffs one of the items, I'm just like, I don't...
34:09
SPEAKER_00: This is so boring.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: I don't care if Bottled Lightning is...
34:13
SPEAKER_00: Half the cost and a little bit better.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't care if the mushroom is a little bit better.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: I just did not care about 80% of the relics.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: And I just felt like if you're going to build a power fantasy game,
34:28
SPEAKER_00: having this crazy arsenal of crazy relics gives me way more than having 20 relics
34:34
SPEAKER_00: that give me 10% attack speed.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: I thought that system was maybe if they had more time When they do,
34:43
SPEAKER_00: that would be the first thing that I would try and make more interesting.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I unfortunately think just the layer of the game won't really help that,
34:55
SPEAKER_01: even if that's what they implemented,
34:57
SPEAKER_01: because you still just won't see it,
34:59
SPEAKER_01: because you're not actually watching the fights,
35:01
SPEAKER_01: and you don't have the post-fight breakdown of what is actually doing something
35:09
SPEAKER_01: for you.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: To make it feel cool.
35:12
SPEAKER_01: And then when you have 100 battles in a single run,
35:16
SPEAKER_01: you're not going to want to go through the post game screen every time to be like,
35:21
SPEAKER_01: hey,
35:21
SPEAKER_01: how's that relic that I invested in pulling off because I want to decide
35:26
SPEAKER_01: if I should do one more farmer or one more hacker.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: And that's just like every one you add is like a very marginal DPS difference
35:35
SPEAKER_01: that you are not even going to be able to see.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let the first phase of the game be me drafting my first 20 dudes and
35:44
SPEAKER_00: then do 30 fights, not 100.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: And then there's less relics, but they're more consequential.
35:50
SPEAKER_00: The runs aren't stupidly long.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: I don't need the power fantasy of going from one person to 50.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: I don't think that that works in the way that you think it does for me personally.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: I didn't really...
36:06
SPEAKER_00: Need that to start with just one dude and then become...
36:12
SPEAKER_00: I don't need to...
36:14
SPEAKER_00: The fight that is with three dudes and the fight that is with 70 dudes,
36:20
SPEAKER_00: if those take the same length in terms of how long the run is, that's a problem.
36:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:30
SPEAKER_01: I agree.
36:30
SPEAKER_01: I think one thing I'll add is...
36:34
SPEAKER_01: It reminded me of Bloons Tower Defense.
36:38
SPEAKER_01: There is a game mode where you get a bunch of resources up front
36:41
SPEAKER_01: and you can almost just build your tower defense.
36:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, do that.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: Let me build my whole dude army.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: That'll be fun.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: That's the fun part of the game.
36:51
SPEAKER_01: And then, bro, just let it run for 20 minutes.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: If you're going to go full idle, just go
36:57
SPEAKER_00: full idle if you're going to do it.
36:59
SPEAKER_01: And I just wanted to see how well I did.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: Another great example of like Bloons of Idol being fun to watch.
37:11
SPEAKER_00: Bloons is super fun to watch.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: This game is it's hard to watch.
37:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that it's hard.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: You and I are playing small budget indie games.
37:30
SPEAKER_00: And I think something I'm realizing is...
37:33
SPEAKER_00: I mean...
37:38
SPEAKER_00: It's hard.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: Making games is super hard.
37:40
SPEAKER_00: I think it's much more fun to be critical of the...
37:45
SPEAKER_00: 100 million dollar flops because they just don't feel as personal
37:49
SPEAKER_00: and they don't feel, it's just more fun.
37:55
SPEAKER_00: But I think, yeah,
37:55
SPEAKER_00: anytime you spend five hours doing something and like,
37:59
SPEAKER_00: I think that all the games we're playing are probably better than 99% of the games
38:04
SPEAKER_00: on Steam.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: These are like 1% of games and that really does show how hard it is
38:10
SPEAKER_00: to build something This is fair.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: This is fair.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, looking forward to next month.
38:38
SPEAKER_00: Very different kind of game than this one.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: And we'll see you there.
38:45
SPEAKER_01: Sounds good, man.
38:45
SPEAKER_01: I'll talk to you next time.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: All right.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Patrick.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: Later.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening.
38:53
SPEAKER_00: Much love.