Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #196 Micromotives with Todd Rose

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#196 Micromotives with Todd Rose · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:02
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
0:06
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
0:09
Speaker 2: Now thinking about what you want for your kid. Listen
0:12
Speaker 2: when you're trying to know who you are anchoring it
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Speaker 2: and what motivates you is the most important part.
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Speaker 3: That's who you are.
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Speaker 1: And now he is the stars of our show, My
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Speaker 1: mom and Dad.
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Speaker 4: Hello, this is Justin Coilson, joined as always by my
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Speaker 4: wife and co host, missus Happy Families. You might know
0:30
Speaker 4: who as Clytie. We've had two really inspiring conversations over
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Speaker 4: the last couple of weeks with Todd Rose. He's an author,
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Speaker 4: He's been a Harvard professor at the Graduate School of Education,
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Speaker 4: and these days he runs a think tank in the
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Speaker 4: US called Populous.
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Speaker 3: It's all about helping.
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Speaker 4: People achieve fulfillment in their lives through being excellent what
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Speaker 4: lights them up, rather than getting the best results they
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Speaker 4: could have at school, because let's face at school isn't
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Speaker 4: always the best indicator of how we're going to go
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Speaker 4: with the rest of our lives. And in our last
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Speaker 4: conversation we talked a bit about how we can help
1:00
Speaker 4: our children to maybe get off the standardized path and
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Speaker 4: tap into what lights them up. But you, Kylie sort
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Speaker 4: of said, you want to do something personal here. You
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Speaker 4: want to get a little bit, a little bit into
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Speaker 4: the guts of this. So I'm going to stop talking.
1:13
Speaker 4: You've got a handful of questions for Todd, and I'm
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Speaker 4: just going to be quiet and listen to this conversation unfold.
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Speaker 5: I'd like to see that.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not going to happen to Thanks for joining
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Speaker 4: us again, Todd.
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Speaker 5: As I've been reading this book, you know, you have
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Speaker 5: just dark Horse is just full of all of these
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Speaker 5: amazing people who have you know, transformed their lives as
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Speaker 5: they've recognized that the standardized path that you know they
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Speaker 5: may have been on is not actually the one that
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Speaker 5: was lighting them up.
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Speaker 4: And usually not as kids or as teenagers or even
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Speaker 4: young adults, They've usually made these transformations as mature adults.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 5: And so for me, I've been a stay at home
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Speaker 5: for the last twenty plus years, and many times throughout
2:00
Speaker 5: that time, I've kind of tapped into, I guess some
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Speaker 5: of the things that motivate me to help kind of
2:05
Speaker 5: bring in a little bit of extra cash. While Justin
2:07
Speaker 5: was studying for all of those years, we needed, you know,
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Speaker 5: a little bit of extra support, and so I've tapped
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Speaker 5: into some of the things that I really love. But
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Speaker 5: now I'm at this point where I've got three children
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Speaker 5: who are pretty much independent, doing their own thing, and
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Speaker 5: I've got three children on their way up, and I
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Speaker 5: can see them in the next few years, life's going
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Speaker 5: to open up for me in a completely different way.
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Speaker 5: But the thought of actually going down that standardized pass,
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Speaker 5: starting at the very beginning, joining in the study sessions
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Speaker 5: with the seventeen and eighteen year olds who've just finished
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Speaker 5: high school and then competing for a job with them,
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Speaker 5: seems are really daunting and actually unmotivating. It's leaving, you know,
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Speaker 5: left me kind of going, well, you know, what's the point.
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Speaker 5: There's no way someone's going to look at me as
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Speaker 5: a you know, almost fifty year old and go, yeah,
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Speaker 5: I'm going to pick you over the eighteen year old
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Speaker 5: who's got longevity. So, you know, can you talk to
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Speaker 5: us a little bit about these micromotives that you talk
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Speaker 5: about in the book and how I can utilize that
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Speaker 5: as a mum and tap into them to find I guess,
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Speaker 5: fulfillment in my life moving forward.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I mean, so, first of all, I mean
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Speaker 3: it's fantastic.
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Speaker 2: And one of the things that I have to say,
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Speaker 2: like we say hundreds and hundreds of people from all
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Speaker 2: walks of life, and it's just we tend to think
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Speaker 2: that this is like a young person's game.
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Speaker 3: I mean, I think we're basically the same age.
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Speaker 2: And it's like, you know, but like you just can't
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Speaker 2: believe the number of like people would make these amazing
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Speaker 2: pivots in their forties, fifties, even sixties and then go
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Speaker 2: on to accomplish things that the world would just be
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Speaker 2: worse off if they hadn't. So it's like, like, but
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Speaker 2: you're getting to an important point, which is when we think, okay,
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Speaker 2: what's next for me, it's hard to see anything other
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Speaker 2: than the standard path, right, and you think, okay, so
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Speaker 2: I've got to go do that, But listen, that actually
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Speaker 2: might turn out to be what you want to do.
4:01
Speaker 2: But there's a way to get to that point, right.
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Speaker 2: And so for me, like starting with understanding your own
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Speaker 2: what we call micromotives is critical because while you need
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Speaker 2: to understand other things like making choices and strategies and
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Speaker 2: ignoring that destination, if you.
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Speaker 3: Don't get the motives right, you can get to success.
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Speaker 2: But you're not getting to fulfillment, right, And so the
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Speaker 2: thing that's interesting to me is with the standardization.
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Speaker 3: We've even standardized motives, right.
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Speaker 2: We literally in academia we argue over what the prime
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Speaker 2: motive is for everybody, or there's a small constellation that
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Speaker 2: are supposed to be universal. What we found over and
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Speaker 2: over again is what really drove people was so individual.
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Speaker 2: I mean, I got to tell you, like, there are
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Speaker 2: things that people like we're genuinely motivated by eyes Like
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Speaker 2: there's just no way like that cannot be motivating.
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Speaker 3: Example, and like.
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Speaker 2: One guy literally like the primary motive, the thing that
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Speaker 2: he could not live without was aligning physical objects with
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Speaker 2: his hands. That is so specific, Like it is like
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Speaker 2: he's like when I think of one as like competition
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Speaker 2: and collaborate, like these gigantic things, and I'm like this
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Speaker 2: dude's like, listen, if I can't align physical objects in
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Speaker 2: my hands, I'm miserable.
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Speaker 4: Well, to let me ask you a question about that though.
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Speaker 4: How does a guy how does a guy discover that
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Speaker 4: that's his thing that he wants to align? What is
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Speaker 4: what is he actually doing here?
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Speaker 2: So this is the important thing, right, So if I
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Speaker 2: was going to say, like what's the starting point for
5:35
Speaker 2: how you do this? Like, so, I think we all
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Speaker 2: recognize like the power of something like passion, right, But
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Speaker 2: passion is really just the activation of those micromotives by
5:45
Speaker 2: an experience, right. So the mistake we make with passion
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Speaker 2: so like, for example, I love American football. Okay, so
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Speaker 2: I have a passion for American football. But what does
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Speaker 2: that mean?
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Speaker 3: Right?
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Speaker 2: Like, there are dozens of reasons why all of us
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Speaker 2: could love that same thing, right, and they're not the same.
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Speaker 2: Is it that it's a team sport, is it that
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Speaker 2: it's outdoors, is it competition? Is it the strategy?
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Speaker 3: Right?
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Speaker 2: So, what you do is if you spend a little
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Speaker 2: bit of time and frankly the people I hear from
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Speaker 2: all the time. Now, if you do this for a
6:15
Speaker 2: couple of weeks, start listing to things that you are
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Speaker 2: passionate about. Okay, but there's one more step, which is
6:23
Speaker 2: start to like think for yourself, why why am I
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Speaker 2: passionate about this?
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Speaker 3: Like that?
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Speaker 2: Why is everything? Because let's say with American football, it
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Speaker 2: turns out I like collaborative sport and I like the strategy. Okay,
6:34
Speaker 2: guess what when I can't play that sport anymore? The
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Speaker 2: motives are portable, right, I can understand how to make
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Speaker 2: the next choice right that it may not have anything
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Speaker 2: to do with football at all and still be fulfilled.
6:47
Speaker 2: And that's what dark horses did, and they're so good
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Speaker 2: at it. And so this this gentleman, right, he was
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Speaker 2: a top engineer. He literally solved one of the like
6:57
Speaker 2: intelecommunications one are these really really difficult problems. He found
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Speaker 2: that he got very little monetary reward for something that
7:05
Speaker 2: he actually discovered. Middle management got a lot more than
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Speaker 2: he did, and he was frustrated, rightly, so he said, well,
7:11
Speaker 2: I'm going to be a manager. Well, if you know him,
7:14
Speaker 2: that was like the worst possible, like this like the
7:17
Speaker 2: opposite of fit.
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Speaker 5: Right, But that's that idea of climbing up the letter right.
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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, he's like, well, I got to do this right.
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Speaker 2: And so pretty soon he finds himself out of a
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Speaker 2: job because he was so bad at the right and
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Speaker 2: he's bouncing around and so here's what he ends up. Right,
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Speaker 2: He is now the top upholstery repair person in New
7:37
Speaker 2: York City now right, because because here's the thing nowhere,
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Speaker 2: if you're going to like a job like guru, who's like, well,
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Speaker 2: me understand would they pair up engineering and a pulsary repair.
7:51
Speaker 2: But what you realize is a pulsary repair is like
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Speaker 2: dealing with family heirlooms and leather and actually requires alignment. Way,
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Speaker 2: and he is so unbelievably happy and doing so well. Right,
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Speaker 2: But like unless you understand that, next click down, which
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Speaker 2: is why am I passionate about these things, what you'll
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Speaker 2: find is you'll start to realize there's a lot of commonality. Right,
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Speaker 2: it's not infinite, but but don't be afraid to go
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Speaker 2: down these very very specific things, right. And it's like
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Speaker 2: you'll see time after time if you can start to
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Speaker 2: figure that out, and you won't be perfect at it,
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Speaker 2: like you'll learn.
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Speaker 4: Right And when you say you learn, you mean you
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Speaker 4: make mistakes. You'll you'll find absolutely, yeah.
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Speaker 2: Of course you will. Right, of course you will. In fact,
8:36
Speaker 2: like there really isn't like it's trial and error. And
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Speaker 2: once you get that, once you recognize that that there
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Speaker 2: is no there's only so much you can learn from
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Speaker 2: other people telling you who you should be. Right, So
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Speaker 2: what you got to do is just get on that path,
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Speaker 2: make good choices and and and in the book, we
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Speaker 2: talked a lot about like how dark horses made choices
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Speaker 2: that really like mitigated the catastrophic down side of a
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Speaker 2: bad choice while leaving open all the upside of a
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Speaker 2: good one.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, I love that concept, and I'm telling you I've
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Speaker 5: started my list of micromotives. I really you know, tapping
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Speaker 5: into the things that motivate me and the things that
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Speaker 5: light me up. And I guess you know, one of
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Speaker 5: the other things that really stood out as I was
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Speaker 5: reading was just this acknowledgment that we're kind of constantly evolving.
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Speaker 5: So while there was something that motivated me twenty years ago,
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Speaker 5: it doesn't necessarily motivate me in the same way now.
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Speaker 5: But that has led to other strengths and the passions
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Speaker 5: that have developed as a result. So I love that
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Speaker 5: idea of evolution. I think that's really powerful.
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Speaker 3: It is a guarantee.
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Speaker 2: While the motives are more indelible, like they're not fleeting, right,
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Speaker 2: they're durable and you can build on them. But even
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Speaker 2: the act of being successful at these things can change
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Speaker 2: the motives that matter most to you. And so rather
9:57
Speaker 2: than feeling like, oh, I finally found this theme that
10:00
Speaker 2: really I'm passionate about, people get they grab onto it
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Speaker 2: right as if they're hoping that that will carry them
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Speaker 2: all the way through their life. And then what happens, right, like,
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Speaker 2: suddenly it's no longer fulfilling and you have this midlife
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Speaker 2: crisis of like, what's going on? But if you recognize
10:15
Speaker 2: that it's always a process and that if it starts
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Speaker 2: to like wane and you're like, wait, I'm not as
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Speaker 2: interested in this, it's time to check back in.
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Speaker 3: Right, it's like, what's changed? Have my motives changed? Right?
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Speaker 3: I love?
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Speaker 4: I love what you're saying right there, because I resonate
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Speaker 4: with it at a personal level. I wanted to be
10:33
Speaker 4: a radio DJ because I wanted to communicate, and I
10:37
Speaker 4: learned a lot about the art of communication, or at
10:39
Speaker 4: least the art of broadcast, you know, the art of
10:41
Speaker 4: getting a message across when I was in radio. But
10:43
Speaker 4: by the time I was in my late twenties, the
10:45
Speaker 4: whole radio industry seemed shallow and superficial, and I didn't
10:48
Speaker 4: want to be part of it anymore. And that's when
10:50
Speaker 4: I went back to school and did psychology because I
10:51
Speaker 4: was interested in that and I loved it. But while
10:54
Speaker 4: I was there, and I started doing lecturing as a
10:57
Speaker 4: graduate student, you know, and I'm lecturing the first years
10:59
Speaker 4: through to the mass A students and running tutorial classes.
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Speaker 4: I tapped back into that concept or that thing where
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Speaker 4: I'm communicating, I'm sharing knowledge. I'm opening my mouth and broadcasting,
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Speaker 4: if you will. And I remember going home to color
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Speaker 4: and saying, this is what lights me up. I feel
11:13
Speaker 4: like I've seen this continuity of you know, these these
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Speaker 4: micro motives, thank you. I've read the book, but I
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Speaker 4: just went blank for a sec. These micro motives, these strengths,
11:24
Speaker 4: if you will. I'm seeing them continue a bit in
11:27
Speaker 4: a different context. And what I'm really passionate about is
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Speaker 4: helping families be happy. I learned how to communicate in radio.
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Speaker 4: I'm feeling the fulfillment that comes from that in the
11:35
Speaker 4: university context. But the area that I'm most interested in
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Speaker 4: communicating is helping families be happy. And so everything that
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Speaker 4: you're saying, I've actually lived it, and I don't know.
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Speaker 4: I feel like I'm supposed to say amen, and you
11:48
Speaker 4: know I'm right there with you.
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Speaker 3: But think about this. You hear this story after story
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Speaker 3: like this, and yet for most people.
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Speaker 2: We've been taught that that's not supposed to be how
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Speaker 2: it is, and it's risky to do that right, and
12:02
Speaker 2: it's safe to pursue somebody else's vision of success.
12:06
Speaker 3: And nothing could be further from the truth. Right.
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Speaker 2: So, when you're thinking about as moms, like think about
12:12
Speaker 2: what you want for your kid, Listen, when you're trying
12:14
Speaker 2: to know who you are, like, anchoring it in what
12:18
Speaker 2: motivates you is the most important part. That's who you are, right,
12:23
Speaker 2: and helping kids like think how many times when your
12:26
Speaker 2: kids come home from school, like, you know, how is
12:28
Speaker 2: school fine?
12:28
Speaker 3: What'd you do? You know? Do we even bother to
12:31
Speaker 3: ask them like, hey, what did you enjoy it? And
12:34
Speaker 3: why did you enjoy it?
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Speaker 2: You will be shocked at how good these kids are,
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Speaker 2: even young kids, at tapping into that, get them in
12:41
Speaker 2: the habit of actually thinking about the why behind what
12:45
Speaker 2: matters to them, and more importantly, model it for them right,
12:48
Speaker 2: explain it to them like this is I think the
12:51
Speaker 2: most important thing you could do for your young kids.
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Speaker 5: I love it. Yeah, two lines out of your book
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Speaker 5: that really jumped out at me kind of I guess
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Speaker 5: going to become one new mantra as I go through
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Speaker 5: this journey of finding out what really really motivates me
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Speaker 5: moving forward, this is who I truly am and this
13:11
Speaker 5: is where I'm headed, and I love it. There's so
13:13
Speaker 5: much power in that.
13:14
Speaker 4: So to take home message, because we do need to
13:16
Speaker 4: wrap this up. It's been so You've been so wonderful
13:19
Speaker 4: talking to us the last few weeks and sharing these
13:21
Speaker 4: insights in the book dark Horse. What you're really saying
13:25
Speaker 4: is take the pressure off your kids and let them
13:27
Speaker 4: work out who they are. Or if you're a mom
13:29
Speaker 4: or a dad who's trying to work out what you
13:31
Speaker 4: really want to do with your life, stop following the
13:33
Speaker 4: standard route. Tap into your real passions, your real strengths,
13:39
Speaker 4: those micromotives.
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Speaker 5: I understand that there will be pitfalls along the way
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Speaker 5: as learning that.
13:45
Speaker 4: Takes place in you, and you're going to fail. But
13:47
Speaker 4: if you pursue what fulfills you and forget about all
13:51
Speaker 4: the other stuff, it's going to work out in the end,
13:54
Speaker 4: and it's going to work out so much better.
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Speaker 3: It will. And this is not like follow your bliss
13:59
Speaker 3: off a cliff. Right.
14:00
Speaker 2: The thing that I found so instructive from dark Horses
14:05
Speaker 2: is that this set of things that they know that
14:07
Speaker 2: make it a reliable, safe path, right, and you know,
14:11
Speaker 2: even something like and I'll say like in terms of
14:13
Speaker 2: how they made choices. That was one of the things
14:15
Speaker 2: that was so interesting to me, which was like, listen,
14:19
Speaker 2: it can't sound cool, Well, yeah, follow, what's fulfilling to you?
14:22
Speaker 3: Well guess what?
14:23
Speaker 2: Like I was raising two little kids, it sounds like
14:26
Speaker 2: we're in a similar boat. When you've got kids you're
14:28
Speaker 2: trying to go to school. Like, yeah, that's cool. There's
14:31
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff that I would have loved to
14:32
Speaker 2: have done that it just isn't in the cards. So
14:34
Speaker 2: one of the things that I think was so interesting
14:38
Speaker 2: from Dark Horses is when they made choices, it was
14:40
Speaker 2: like a two step process.
14:42
Speaker 3: Of the options you have.
14:44
Speaker 2: They're almost never equal in terms of how good of
14:48
Speaker 2: a fit they are to what really lights you up. Right, So,
14:51
Speaker 2: but then the question is could you live with the
14:54
Speaker 2: worst case scenario if you make that choice. If the
14:58
Speaker 2: answer is yes, then do it right. If the answer
15:01
Speaker 2: is no, then move on to the next one that
15:03
Speaker 2: is the next second best in terms of fulfillment.
15:07
Speaker 3: But you can live with the worst case now.
15:09
Speaker 2: So, like there were people in the book that literally
15:11
Speaker 2: were able to pack up everything they had, moved to
15:14
Speaker 2: England and live in a hut to get the kind
15:17
Speaker 2: of training they needed. Right, But they didn't have kids, right,
15:21
Speaker 2: it would be irresponsible if I did something like that
15:25
Speaker 2: with with with mouths to feed, right and so like.
15:29
Speaker 2: It's not that it has to be perfect, but in
15:31
Speaker 2: every single person's life, you always have choices, and those
15:35
Speaker 2: choices are not equal in terms of their potential for
15:38
Speaker 2: fulfillment the power of choice.
15:40
Speaker 5: Todd, we are so grateful for your time today. Thank
15:43
Speaker 5: you so much for spending and being so generous with
15:47
Speaker 5: the things that you shared with us. I hope that,
15:50
Speaker 5: I hope there's something out of what we shared today.
15:52
Speaker 4: I just hope everyone dark horse and reads it with
15:55
Speaker 4: their kids. That's that's it for me. I know Todd
15:57
Speaker 4: probably would like that too.
15:59
Speaker 2: Now I'm hoping, and we're now that we're friends, I'm
16:02
Speaker 2: hoping that we get past all the pandemic and someday
16:07
Speaker 2: we'll see each other in Australia.
16:09
Speaker 3: How's that. I'd love that. That'd be great.
16:11
Speaker 4: Well, once again some brilliant insight from Todd Rose. And
16:14
Speaker 4: if you missed our previous two conversations with Todd, make
16:16
Speaker 4: sure that you jump back into the archive and look
16:18
Speaker 4: them up. We'll make sure that we linked them in
16:20
Speaker 4: the show notes. As we mentioned Todd is the author
16:22
Speaker 4: of the book Dark Horse, that was my Book of
16:24
Speaker 4: the Year in twenty nineteen, as well as The End
16:26
Speaker 4: of Average, which was my Book of the Year in
16:28
Speaker 4: twenty eighteen, as well as one called Square Peg. I'm
16:31
Speaker 4: yet to read that one, but I'm pretty keen to
16:33
Speaker 4: get into it. He's the co founder of think tank
16:35
Speaker 4: Populous and also the president there. And my name is
16:38
Speaker 4: doctor Justin Coulson. If you've enjoyed the podcast, we would
16:41
Speaker 4: love for you to visit Apple Podcasts and leave a
16:43
Speaker 4: rating and review. It's the reviews that help people to
16:45
Speaker 4: find the podcast and have happier families. As always produced
16:49
Speaker 4: by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media, and our executive producer
16:52
Speaker 4: is Craig Bruce. If you'd like more info about making
16:55
Speaker 4: your family happy, please visit happyfamilies dot com dot au.