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Therapists and MoNeY - Let's talk about it with Rachel Duncan · Spiral Tending

0:00
Hello and welcome.
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This is the Spiral Tending Podcast.
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This is a place where we talk about what it's like to be a healer and therapist in 2026, and money, and workers' rights, and grief, and running a small business, and everything else in between, like creativity and following that little light that lives inside of you that has something to offer this world.
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If you are listening, I imagine you are someone who follows purpose, and how badass is that? Okay, so let's get started.
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On today's episode, we have Rachel Duncan, who is a financial therapist and coach.
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She is incredible.
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In this episode, we talk about money, and being a therapist, and charging for our services, and untangling from stories that institutions who make money, lots of money, off of putting many therapists in debt, and the stories that allow so many therapists to remain in debt.
1:14
I wanna give a short caveat that this audio is not the greatest.
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I did my best.
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There was some glitches that were happening, but I really wanted to put this out right now because it is a particularly challenging time to be a therapist and make money.
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And I also am just gonna say, because the audio is not the greatest, if you put in headphones, it's gonna sound so, so much better.
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Please, if you like these episodes, like, share, tell a friend.
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It goes so far.
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And, let's jump in Hi, Rachel.
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Welcome to the podcast.
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Will you just tell people who you are and the cool work that you do? Thanks so much for having me.
1:59
Um, I'm Rachel Duncan.
2:00
I'm based in Denver, Colorado.
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I am a certified financial therapist and art therapist.
2:06
And, um, but even in that niche, I tend to specialize with folks who are very, uh, who feel avoidant about their money and they name impulse spending as their number one problem Tell us what, like, impulse spending means to you Ooh, just like right out of the gate.
2:23
Yes.
2:24
'Cause I've defined this, 'cause it's, it's interesting, right? We, I mean, we gotta spend money to live, right? And like, well, you don't impulse spend paying your rent.
2:32
You don't impulse spend...
2:33
You know? Like, there's certain categories that this falls into, and my definition, my working definition of an impulse buy is usually something that you bought, you know, it felt like on a whim, and you feel kinda crappy about afterwards.
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That's important, because there's lots of stuff we buy on a whim that are just totally fine and normal and aligned and we don't feel crappy about.
2:52
You wouldn't necessarily call that an impulse purchase.
2:55
It's this added thing, it's the leftover of being like, "Ugh, you know, I wish I hadn't done that," or seeing the packages arrive on the doorstep and you don't remember ordering it.
3:04
It's, it's sort of, it's not just the im- impulsive nature of the decision, it is realizing afterwards that it wasn't aligned.
3:11
Totally that feeling where you're like, "Ah, that was so freaking silly.
3:14
Why did I do that?" And then you're like, "I can't even return it."
3:18
Right, right.
3:19
Or now I have to return it, and now I've made a whole other project for myself, and I don't have time for this.
3:25
And tell me about the work.
3:27
Like, do you work with therapists around money as well? I have, not exclusively, but certainly therapists come to my door, um, really because I, I, you know, they're my people too.
3:39
There are people where, like, I know this is emotional.
3:42
Like, I need to feel emotionally safe before I can start doing this.
3:46
And, you know, I think for a lot of us who have been to therapy for different things, it's like, well, what's a safe place? The therapist's office.
3:54
You know, could money be part of it? And, um, 'cause I think traditionally so much of money advice and money talk is less safe, is less emotionally safe.
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It's not sensitive to people's backgrounds, their realities.
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Um, it's rigid.
4:11
Um, all of that that really actually leads to, you know, some feelings of, of not feeling so safe, you know, of all degrees.
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And, um, so I think it is.
4:20
It's that safe place first, just like any, any reason someone will go to a therapist, 'cause, like, I have something that is hurts and it's sensitive, and I need to feel like I'm safe, and feel like I know that I'm with someone who knows how to go there, Totally.
4:35
Like, and we'll go there.
4:37
Um, go there money is such like, as you were talking, I was like, the closed doors of money of all of our lives, like we don't, we're not getting the, the full picture of what's truly happening.
4:48
Um- Yeah.
4:49
Even to ourselves, let alone share it with somebody else, right? We're not supposed to talk about this.
4:54
We're supposed to be walking around pretending like everything's fine, and we're looking around looking at everyone else being like, "They've got it together."
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But I mean, really the most of us are like, "Ooh, am I doing this right?" Or like, "Ooh, if anyone actually knew what was going on..."
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And it's like, I just imagine like this cartoon of all of us walking around like, "Ugh, I'm the only one."
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But like...
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That's what we need.
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We need to make a cartoon of that.
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Like, it is.
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It's like I- we all feel like we're the only one who's messing up with this, and it's so not true.
5:22
It's so not true, and it's like so designed to make us feel so alone in that way, so we don't talk about it because if we did, there'd definitely be a, a working class revolution, but that's a discussion for another time.
5:34
Um, In the works.
5:35
In the work.
5:36
Don't cheat.
5:37
I know.
5:38
I'm like, "I'm ready, you guys.
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Come on."
5:40
Um, I was thinking a lot about something that you, you said, um, which, uh, like not during this podcast, before this podcast, um, about therapists getting their shit together around money so clients can talk about it.
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What do...
5:59
Like, tell me more Okay.
6:01
Well, one of the, I think the biggest lessons I got from grad school was, a client only goes as far in therapy as their therapist has gone Yes.
6:12
It's both conscious and unconscious, right? There are topics in therapy land that I'm not trained in, and I can't help someone go there.
6:21
Mm-hmm so even on a subconscious level, I-- Okay, here's my bold claim.
6:31
I think most clients actually want to talk about money in the therapy room, and they know, they know in their bones it's not gonna go anywhere because their therapist obviously hasn't done their work with money.
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And/or I actually think there can be some ethical harm that happens.
6:46
I've actually just talked to another financial therapist who's concerned about this also, where someone brings in, you know, money as part of whatever's going on.
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And, you know, a therapist defaulting to really, um, you know, unsafe advice.
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Just set a budget and stick to it, or here's what I did, or you know what I mean? Sticking to...
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You-you know, reverting to tips and tricks, or really not taking their whole training in mental health with this topic because they haven't done their own work.
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And, um, I've had quite a few clients come across my door saying, "I know I have financial trauma.
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I even brought it up in the therapy room, and it didn't go anywhere."
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I'm like, "I know.
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It's just 'cause the other therapist hadn't done their own work," and so I'm so glad you came to me because this is literally all I do.
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I thought this financial therapy thing would be like a side thing, but I realized pretty quickly, like, no, actually, I want it to be everything I do.
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Like, everything.
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Because it touches everything.
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So now it's...
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That is the specific reason people come to me is only the financial therapy.
7:44
And of course, it brings other stuff in as well, but a lot of it is because they have, you know, done trauma work and all, all really good work.
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But like, when it came to the money aspect of it, it didn't go anywhere, and I'm still left feeling like a kid with money.
7:55
Like, it's like just stuck in this, um, time capsule.
7:59
Totally.
8:00
And like I think it gets, um, please let me know how, what you think about this, but like for therapists, a lot of the training is do not talk about money.
8:11
Um, let it be you work for free essentially if you can tell that the person's struggling, which is so complicated because I'm like, "I don't know, my healthcare bill's $800 a month."
8:22
Like we ha- there has to be some amount of reciprocal thing, even if it's a dollar you must do sliding scale? Yes, and I have also feelings about that.
8:31
Um, even though I do both of these things that we're talking about, and caveat, would love to dissect that.
8:37
Um, but also, like, there's a lot of fear, I think, about being real with clients around money in general.
8:48
Like setting your rate, even working with people and then, like, having them go down a sliding scale and be like, "You know what? I'm starting to get resentful.
8:55
We have to go back up or refer you out."
8:58
But I feel like therapists just, like, really struggle to even name any of what we've talked about.
9:06
What are your thoughts, opinions? Tell me more.
9:09
Mm-hmm.
9:11
And that's tough, I think because what we do is so intangible.
9:15
Yes know? It is.
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There's this intangibility of it, and it's like, well, I mean, I'm getting, you know, $120 for this hour session.
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That's a lot of money for an hour.
9:26
But number one, it's not an hourly rate.
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Your hourly rate is part of that 120, for example.
9:34
I'm naming that because that was my first rate when I started private practice.
9:37
It was very anchored for me, right? A slice of that is your rate, right? And I mean, I, I, I playfully challenge therapists, as you can kind of see is a little of my thing.
9:47
Like, "Oh, how much did you pay for graduate school? Oh, you have a professional degree.
9:53
Oh."
9:56
Do, do we expect lawyers to...
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Of course, now lawyers, some lawyers do pro bono work.
10:00
That's part of their ethics, great.
10:01
But, like, would you expect a lawyer from me to do that every time? Like, no.
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I'm like, helping is a very important thing that only I can do.
10:09
And, you know, I th- There's so many things, I think, 'cause a lot of folks who are attracted to mental health, um, you know, often come from financially disenfranchised communities, right? It's majority women.
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And we're like, "Oh, it's just a little old me.
10:26
It's just me.
10:27
We're just having a nice conversation," right? We don't realize the power in what we're doing.
10:31
Um, and so I think just, like, really emphasizing what we do is really, really strong professional work.
10:36
The fact, this is something I've recently come to appreciate, the fact that we have a board of ethics.
10:41
Not all professions have that, you know? Like, we are mandated reporters.
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We, you know, we have to keep up on these CEs and, you know, licenses and stuff.
10:52
Like, there's just so much value in that to realize when you charge your session fee, it is for the whole experience in a...
10:59
And I like to, like, even make, like, a little pie chart.
11:02
A section of this is your grad school.
11:03
This section, section of this is you having time off to process the stuff.
11:08
A section is you getting good supervision and, and it is a whole experience for the client.
11:13
So when it comes to fees specifically, it's just backing up.
11:16
Even just comparing other professions, you know? Yeah Yeah.
11:21
I don't know if that answers your question, but I think fee setting is, like, a number one thing where I start with.
11:26
Many therapists are in a severe amount of debt, like a, a disgusting amount of debt, and you said something really important that a lot of us h- come from poverty.
11:36
Um, and tell me more, like, what, when I say that, like, what comes up for you? How do you think about money and poverty and trauma with the therapist? Like, it just gets so muddy Oh, I don't know.
11:51
My only answer is that it's muddy.
11:53
I, I don't, I don't know if I have...
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I wish I had a clear answer.
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But I've been naming it, right? Just, like, naming it is this sort of wounded helper archetype that we have, um, which is, like, there's so much beauty to it.
12:09
You know, I really, I really do get it.
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Is when we raise our rates, our work gets better and our clients do better 110%.
12:19
Say more of that, please I mean, that's it, it's, it's a thing I really encourage, you know, if I'm working with a therapist or anyone in, in professional services to play with that.
12:30
And, you know, I think everyone can, can kind of play with it, and it invites these really clear conversations.
12:37
I have really clear conversations with my clients about my fees.
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It's extended to people on my team.
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I really have clear conversations with the people I pay as well.
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And so it's like really just walking my talk, 'cause it's like, well, here's, here's when the financial therapy begins, is talking about like even the nature of this arrangement and that it's a boundary.
12:57
Yes And I wish so much though, 'cause I know sometimes when we raise our prices, it does price out some services for people.
13:06
Like, I think that is a fact.
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That is a fact, and I think it is the give and take though of going private practice Yep.
13:17
And have really good referrals.
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Know the agencies in your area.
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It is not on us to save the world and burn out on doing work for $10 a session.
13:28
Um, even though we really are committed to helping people, I, I really get that.
13:31
I think we can help them by giving, you know, by referring them to community mental health or, or, or whichever, 'cause I, I think, "Oh, do you have a grant to be able to provide that?" So I think it's like, "Well, you don't have a grant? Well, you know who does? You know the YWCA down the street."
13:48
You know, I, I think it's like we kinda take, "Oh, it has to all be on me and..."
13:52
But we're all part of a system.
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We're all part of a system here, and everyone does better work when, I think, when the fee matches the quality Yep.
14:00
And I think that there's a financial and emotional and energetic excha- exchange occurring from both people.
14:08
Like, um, I love holding people's stuff with them, but that is also a cost to my wellbeing.
14:19
And not that I'm taking it on, but the stories have to go somewhere, which means I have to take care of myself, which costs m- money Right.
14:29
They say, "Oh, I'm making 120 an hour."
14:31
No, you aren't, 'cause you're not seeing 40 clients a week.
14:35
Yes.
14:36
And then you break down the taxes and the business expenses, and slowly you're like, "No, no, no, no, no.
14:42
That's not When you say muddy, what does muddy mean to you around like when things get sticky in countertransference? Like Well, my first thought I was thinking, Muddy, is like we're sitting down, we're helping people individually, which is like beautiful secret work, but also in the context of massive systemic things Ja that, like, we're not gonna be able to solve in a therapy room, and sometimes it is a harm reduction model, and I hate...
15:15
Sometimes I really just really hate that.
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I hate, like, the ineffectiveness of it.
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And how does change happen? Sometimes one relationship at a time.
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So like, the...
15:23
There's a bit of that muddiness, I think.
15:26
Um, you know, by and large, people are not getting paid enough.
15:30
They think their problem is impulse spending, and, like, that could be a little bit there, but, like, I really think we just need to focus on income, and that is a structural issue, you know? So that's often where I come to.
15:42
Th- this is why I was very careful.
15:43
Like, I help people who report that their number one problem is impulse spending, and I know there's...
15:49
That's not...
15:50
right.
15:51
It's growing up in scarcity and knowing that, and then having enough and being like, "Oh, ha, I can get...
15:57
cons- and consumerism.
15:59
We're so stimulated to buy, and then if we overspend, it's all our fault.
16:03
When, where else is the friction other than the supposed willpower we're all supposed to have, which is a finite resource? So there's a lot of that.
16:11
There's a lot of, you know, I like asking my clients about when was a time they rebelled.
16:16
You know, when were they ever part of a movement? When did they ever go against the status quo? And getting those stories, we all have some aspect of that.
16:23
Usually it's like that's your money healer.
16:26
'Cause there's a little bit of the giving the middle finger to, you know...
16:30
Now suddenly we're all getting DoorDash all the time.
16:33
That was not the norm eight years ago.
16:35
Can you, like, just track how some of these lifestyle trends have come in for better or worse? It just is.
16:41
It's a phenomenon, and our standard of living has really shifted, and we're all just sort of frogs in the water with it.
16:48
Yeah.
16:48
And there's sometimes a little bit, I find, that the people who, you know, are feeling more whole with money actually have a real kind of almost defiance about it.
16:57
You know, bucking the trends, not doing what's expected is, I think, an unspoken, um, aspect of getting better with money.
Let's take a quick break, and if you have listened this far, thank you so much.
I am popping on here, this is Andi, to remind you about the Spiral Collective.
As we are talking about money and the complexities of building a practice in 2026, which is far different than just six years ago, oh my gosh, so different, I have created a space for healers and therapists across the world where we come together monthly, do business skill share.
Sometimes I do trainings.
Sometimes other people pop on and tell you about their cool, awesome services.
We share each other's work.
You can self-promote all day long, pretty much as much as you want.
It is a place that welcomes you and your work.
Some things that we also tend to talk about a lot is money and holding the complexity of how each of us access money differently based on who we are in this shitty ass system, and how can we build businesses that align with our values and help us buy groceries, and help us put money away for our parents when they get old, or send money to our family members who live in a different country, or give our money away to people who need cars because we know what it's like to not have a car, which can really suck in America.
So if you are listening and this has, you know, caught your listening ears, I really, really encourage you to check out the Spiral Collective.
You can find out more at spiraltending.com.
Okay.
Let's jump right back on in.
So excited to keep talking about money Do you self-disclose to your clients about your financial situation and what you've gone through? Yes, carefully.
I would say carefully.
Um, I know that a lot of clients come to me as, or see me kind of as a model.
And so number one, I wanna dispel that.
Like, I'm on this journey, too.
And number two, some things I have worked out have worked out for me in these ways because, you know, I like giving exact examples.
And less, I would say, on the nuts and bolts of money, rather on the personal things.
Like, I just recorded a whole reel forthcoming about going to Home Depot you only need one thing and that experience of all of the beautiful plants.
And, you know, and I kind of was processing that out loud.
So there's a lot of-- I share a lot of my inter- my personal internal process.
Do I also share that my husband and I bought a commercial property a few years ago, and that's part of our financial picture? Yes, 'cause I want people to talk-- I wanna talk about real estate with it, and I want them to know that I know something about that, you know? Um, so yes, in, in slices when it seems right, I absolutely do.
I totally do too.
Um, I'm, I, uh, I've been having a slew of, as the student loans are totally fucking everyone, um, I've had so many conversations the past month about this in my, in my work, and finally I was like, "I don't know, y'all should just know I'm in the same amount of debt as you."
Like, we're all, we're all swimming and, and as soon as I say that, I just witness clients be like, "Oh," like, "I'm not actually alone in this."
But because of how class is structured in our system, it so quickly can feel so isolating.
And I think about this a lot about anyone going through college, is that as students, we don't know who's paying the bill, and that is so strange.
And even the scholarships are secret.
Like, everything just kinda becomes, a class structure from like childhood, and then you're back in college and it just like amplifies.
Um, yeah.
I think it's really true and, and I think it, it just speaks to this larger point of I think sometimes cl- clients come to a therapist and really see a therapist as they've got it all worked out, and a little bit like, "I'm on this journey too," I think is really important in normalizing to the whole power differential we're so aware of.
And, and the I actually, I was seeing a therapist while in grad school, and at some point I kind of brought up, I think it was right at the end, and I was like, like, wait, my loans are gonna be this much, and I pay you this much."
Like I don't know, we, I brought in the, the topic and he handled it well, I think.
He didn't really get into it, but like he was like, "Yeah, this is probably the lar- the lowest ROI of any profession," meaning return on investment.
For what we pay in graduate fees, graduate school, versus what we make, and that was a little bit like, "God, I wish I had known that when I had applied."
First off is like, I think the secrecy is also in people coming in.
'Cause I think we come in like, "Oh, it is in the world and it's all the best, it's all..."
The work is the best.
That's not the problem.
The work is the best.
It is like, oh, there are aspects of this like, did you know we have to pay for our own internships? This is the on- as far as I know, mental health is the only industry where interns pay to be there.
It is the...
If I, I don't know, have the financial wherewithal to cul- pull back on work and do advocacy work, it is, oh my God, no more unpaid interns.
Pay your interns.
Like, I think, I don't understand how it's legal.
I don't understand, 'cause at my internship there were two supervisors and 10 interns, and we were running the place.
We were absolutely doing labor.
We were not in training.
And I, I just, can I just put it out there? Someone needs to fix this.
It's, I think it's...
I don't understand.
I don't understand how it's been allowed to be continued.
And they pocket that money.
That is the wildest part to me.
And then they're like, "We're paying for your supervision."
And I'm like, "Fuck you."
We're-- That's not what's happening.
Usually we pay for supervision outside of our internships because we're stuck with someone really shitty who treats us like poo-poo.
So I am so with you, and I, I think about this a lot of like, I don't know what your internship structure was, but mine was 35 hours a week for nine months.
And then the rest of us who had to worked before and after we went into internship, and I just remember being like, that is wild that this is so normalized.
And I actually fought and got a paid internship, but my school had me turn it down.
And yeah, yeah, they turned it down.
And no matter how much fuss I made, I was seen as like the crazy crying one.
But I was like, "Do you know how the, easeful my life would be?" Um, yeah, it was wild Wow, that is, that's what...
I mean, amazing that you got it, and amazing that you weren't allowed to do it.
And, and I think the, and the other layer on the cake is we are probably sitting with the toughest trauma cases known in community mental health.
Like, it, all of it is so, it is quite backwards.
And, you know, I had other folks I graduated with take a year to be, do full-time childcare because they would make more than entry level community or hospital work.
There's something really broken about our system if, if that's the case.
And just in transparency, I was lucky.
My husband had a high-paying job, and he could support me doing this.
And at that time, and, you know, like we all just have really different trajectories with this.
Like, I didn't do the traditional put in my hours at hospitals or community mental health.
I was able to more or less go right into private practice, and that's a huge privilege.
It was a huge privilege I also went straight into private practice, and it, it's wild to me that my first year I made probably, like, the same amount of money as I made as agency, and then by my second year I doubled, and as an associate.
And there's, like, this, um, very confusing thing that I think happens in our field that is intentional, I think, about paying us low wages and us having to fight for workers' rights over and over and over in agency, and then inevitably a lot of us leave 'cause we're like, "This is wild."
And then we end up making a bit more money, and with the caveat that I still don't think that it's actually enough.
And even that doubling or even where I am now, like, I see like, what, 14 to 16 clients a week, and some years it's 100K, a little above, a little lower.
You know, like, I kinda just stay in this, in that thing, and if I raise my rates, then there's a little bit of a drop and then go, and it kind of always levels out for me actually.
And, and I think about how for me a livable wage would be closer to $150,000.
Um, but it's so normalized for us to think of money in such tiny little things when our...
Yeah.
Uh, you're nodding your head.
Tell me more.
Uh, well in the anchor, the 100K lie.
I actually had a podcast episode out a, a few months ago, you should check it out, where, where I talked to Becky Mollenkamp, who's like a, um, a feminist business coach.
And it's like, you know, we get these anchor points of 100K.
We've been talking about 100K since the '90s.
Why has this number not moved? It needs to move.
And we kind of like...
It's still, I still hear how to break six figures.
And I'm not saying that's not a significant milestone, I think it totally is, but it is not what it used to be.
It is not, you know, you're all good and comfy and, and it doesn't take into, you know, the huge variety of situations, you know? Like, I have two kids and we support my mother-in-law, so like my 100K is used really differently.
And so like we just can't, you know, the whole lifestyle comparison, it just doesn't work when we only look at income And I will, I, I talk to, I think I say this every time I do this podcast, but one of my dear friends has been in the field in private practice for like 20 years.
Her rate when she started 20 years ago was 120.
That is most of my peers' private practice rate when they feel qualified, which is wild to me.
I'm like, "Raise your fucking rates."
Um, and she just raised her rates a year ago for the first time to 200, and it really has shown me, like, potentially 20 years ago, being a therapist was actually probably a more lucrative gig, but we have not had, um, raises along the way to keep that, um, you know, robust.
You know what I'm saying? And then, and who's giving raises? Us.
Like, think of being self-employed, like who's giving me a raise? So I'm the one who has to decide that.
It's so much work to do.
And then I think we get stuck at these lower rates 'cause it's like I don't have that uncomfortable conversation with my client, or I've definitely worked with friends who are therapists in private practice, like, you know, this worry, "Oh, I'll raise my rates and everyone will leave."
When so often it's like you're gonna get a couple different responses.
Usually one is, "Okay."
Two is, "Thank God, I've been wanting to pay you more."
And three, "That doesn't quite work with me.
Let's phase out."
Like, we're talking about a huge range.
It is not 100% everyone leaving.
A couple people might.
But, but I have seen time and again how your especially current clients are like, "Yeah, totally.
Like no, a non-issue.
We're glad you did."
And so I, I do encourage some like experimentation and also I encourage people to, or therapists not to do special cases.
Like have, "Oh, well, they paid me this and she pays me 400."
Like standardizing it is gonna help everyone, including you, feel like this is fair.
Yeah.
And I, I think that within that there's, um, resentment that gets hidden.
And for me, a lot of the advice I was given in grad school is to never go into private practice and stay at community health forever and ever 'cause that would be so needed, um, until my soul died.
It, it didn't set me up for having complex conversations of like, "Yeah, this was working for me and now it's not, and how can we figure this out together?" Like, no one's abandoning anyone, but the pressure of therapists holding someone's wellbeing so much through money like is also an impossible ask that no human could ever meet 'cause it's not individual.
Yeah.
Systemic issues that we're supposed to deal with individually.
Oh.
Oh man, I'm feeling all righteous.
I hope our listeners are like, "Rawr," like feeling that fire.
This sucks.
Why don't you, like, tell me more of, like, what inspired you to become a financial therapist and really start to have these convos so openly? Well, it is.
I tell this story.
It's sort of these two threads always been going on for me.
I've, I've always, you know, had a knack for numbers.
I was one of these like millennial well-rounded kids, right? I kind of did well in everything.
Um, enjoyed the analytical and the creative.
That's always just been part of my life.
And, um, I kept getting work.
You know, do-- I'm a great admin assistant.
I think the best admin assistant.
I was like doing office manager stuff.
I love just like...
I've always loved business.
I've just always had a high tolerance for it.
I don't know where it came from.
It just, I kind of have always had it.
Not-- my parents had, were teachers.
Like I don't come from a family of entrepreneurs, but there was something, I always just loved counting my money.
Apparently it's all in my stars.
An astrologist told me that I could be nothing but a financial therapist 'cause I got, um, Scorpio and Capricorn really strong.
So it's like I got this cool mix, you know, of these two, like the depth and the nuts and bolts.
So I've always loved kind of tinkering with my own money and, um, I, I even remember thinking like in the right, I don't know, in the early aughts, like when blogs were starting to become a thing, I even thought about making a money blog, but I kept pulling back 'cause I felt like well, I'm not an expert or I don't know.
You know, I was just kinda like, oh, little old me kind of vibe.
Um, because I didn't go into grad school till my 30s, so I had already had kind of like a working chapter, um, and doing money just like my parents.
Being paid steady with benefits, but pretty well, make and do.
Not a lot of extra, but no debt.
That, those, that's, that's the math of my parents, right? And so there I was at 30 Few thousand in savings, a steady job, and no debt, and that's about it.
A little student loan, but that was it.
And that was...
I, I also benefited from very low rates when I was in college.
So, you know, that was kind of the, like, well, that is how it is for me.
I'm not the kind of person who invests.
I'm not the kind of person who pursues higher income.
But right when I was at 30, it was a really important, and I think it's a big year for a lot of people, but I was really realizing I wanted to do professional work, get out of the admin race, and I was truly, truly interviewing for MBA schools and therapy schools.
Like, I was...
It was a 50/50 split.
I could have gone either way.
Like, I loved them both.
And then when it really came to, I was like, I wanna get into the depth of human experience.
Like, what is lighting me up, it's like, you know, This American Life and, you know, hearing stories of, like, I wanna get in there, and I've been a lifer in therapy myself.
So it...
But it really was, it could have gone either way.
Um, I do kind of wonder, like, that's that sliding doors moment, like, what if I'd got my MBA? I mean, also everyone has an MBA, so I don't know how useful that would've been, but it just would've been a different trajectory, you know? So I go to grad school.
I applied to an art therapy program, 'cause it'd always been a strength of mine, um, making art, and, um, you know, I just wanted to have chorus and, you know, all this great, just all this depth of, you know, all this, this wonderful stuff.
But I've always been kind of a left-brain therapist, like, even though I can totally do the, the real depth work.
But, like, I like talking about forms and how to, you know, operationalize.
Like, I gave a training in my internship about how I write notes efficiently.
Like, this has always just, like, been a thing.
Like, I just have a knack for it.
So I always felt, like, a little out of sorts, and I too had that conversation with some professors, like, "Well, we're not in it for the money.
Don't be in this-" Well, sure, but it's not like a living.
Like, I'm in grad school.
I thought it'd be a living.
Um, so, you know, left grad school, and my track to developing my practice took some time 'cause I had babies.
I also cared for my mom, who was ill.
So, like, just sort of my path was not what most of my cohorts was right out of grad school.
I kind of was slow to start.
Um, but I was...
I had, like, pick up some little contracting gigs, do art therapy groups, you know, here and there.
Um, you know, start seeing some clients online just a little bit, but it was always, like, this little extra on top of being a primary parent and caregiver.
Um, but people kept asking me to, like, help them upgrade their bookkeeping.
And I'm like, "I'm a therapist."
And I kept getting, like, people, like friends, friends of friends, like, asking me for, like, business consulting work, and I kept being like, "Well, I'm a therapist."
But, like, no one wanted that from me.
Not no one, but, like, that's what people wanted from me, and I'm also that friend, you know, who friends come to when they need to ask for a raise.
How do I do this? Or, you know, um, you know, what can I afford? Like, I'm just sort of that friend.
So anyway, all that to say, I was, like, really doubling down on finally getting my art therapy practice, just full art therapy practice, uh, going in February of 2020.
Like, signed a lease, like the whole deal.
And the world closed down, had to be with babies and my mom and all of the stuff.
In that time, there was an article, I can't wait to phrase this, and I gotta find the original article.
It was either NPR or New York Times put out something about financial therapy being a growing niche, and two unrelated friends sent me that article.
"This is you."
I was like, "Wait, what? Like, I could do that? I had no idea just 'cause of you?" Like, never the twain shall meet.
And so I got real excited, and I, you know, I mean, I had time with the kids, not a ton of time.
I wasn't doing professional work, but I just started reading about it, and I found a certificate program, and I did it, and it was easy, and it was fun.
I was like, "That's it? I can start bringing this in.
I can start taking all of my training in, you know, um, creative healing arts and, um, you know, all the stuff apply in the topic of money."
And once I started saying, when I reopened my practice a year and a half later, saying, "I'm doing financial therapy," you know, like, I got a wait list.
Like, it was definitely the universe saying, "This is what we want you to do."
So it was both, like, practical and I think just, like, super deep alignment.
That's my long story.
It, it makes me, um, think about my next question for you is how do you integrate art and financial therapy? Well, a couple ways.
So art therapy training is really interesting because it's not only the client making art, it is the art therapist is thinking in art and feeling in art and thinking in images and, um, paying attention to the whole, the artistry that's happening in the whole room.
So like quite often there'll be an art therapy session where it's just talk.
It's still ...But
it is still art therapy 'cause I'm gonna go make art about it afterwards, or I'm thinking in images or it's like, God, that was just so dark purple or whatever it is, right? That all counts.
Um, but the In practice, I don't use it all the time, for sure.
Um, when it's appropriate, um, but especially when it's like, why can't I get outta my own way? Could you make an image of that block? It's just gonna say so much more than talking through it, I find.
It tends to really accelerate the work, like in anything.
Art therapy, everyone like woo-hoo.
Cheer- cheers to the art therapist and can I also give a little sidebar to art therapists? We have more prerequisites and more and higher licensing requirements than other therapists.
So I'm like, well, I don't know how to get clarity on this without there being an image.
And when someone says, "God, I just felt I was in Tark and I felt like I was eight years old again," could you make an image of that? Right? Like you n- it There's often an invitation I hear, and then it's just It is as simple, that's usually my directive.
Could you make an image about it? And that's it.
Um, over the years I've come up with kind of a handful of my go-to prompts, especially when I'm working with groups.
'Cause that's the other thing is art really works with groups, right? It's a third thing.
Some- what am I gonna do with my hands, right? It gives you something to do with your hands and, um, and it's a beautiful thing to do with groups.
So, um, I do have a couple go-to things like money and boundaries, money and metaphor, um, class, like all of these things have a lot of images that can, um, that can be related.
So fantasy self, give me a picture of your fantasy self.
Um, so it all, you know, it really, really comes together.
So it shows up in lots of ways and I think at first people are like, "What?" I'm like, yeah, we make a lot more art and journal about money than we do about spreadsheets.
It's like a little It's like it's there, it's there.
The practical tools are there.
It's not my focus and they come much later 'cause often the practical stuff is, um, soft Because it's hiding in our bodies and the unconscious, and, and s- spreadsheets can only get us so far if we're stuck in a pattern, but we don't even know the pattern's there.
Gosh, yes.
Art and money is so interconnected.
When I do an art process group.
Therapists are always like, "I didn't even know that I was holding onto this with money."
And actually, a lot of therapists are afraid to make the art to know what will come up, and it is a very, like, slow process for people just to do a couple of drawings.
And so I think that art is incredibly profound, and I agree it, it unlocks things that our other brain just can't get there without the creative aspect.
Yeah.
Yeah, it gets into the nuance, and then they have a thing.
And I say like, "Look, look, your art is yours," you know? Then they have a thing, and I find that there's a thread that kind of pulls through.
And I say like, "Look, you made the art, but it will continue to change for you as you look at it.
You can continue to change it if it asks for it."
And then we have...
It's actually a dialectic.
So I often ask people, like, if they make that image, and then if it's not feeling complete, like ask, ask the image, "What do you need? What do you need?" And give it to them.
"What do you need?" Have...
I often don't say like, "Choose a color."
I say, "Let a choo- let a color choose you."
So now what are we doing? We're getting into instinct.
We're getting into this internal dialogue we're having.
And when we're having that kind of internal dialogue, oh, presto chango, we're pretty regulated usually, right? We're holding no- nuance.
We're holding, like, multiple perspective-taking.
Like, it's all happening, real magic, without me saying one DBT thing, right? It's all the dialectic is, like, right there.
And just it is, it's often eye-opening.
Like, after you make the image, like, "Oh my God, look, I'm way down here.
Oh, that definitely makes sense."
Right? It's like these things, they continue to unfold.
And it's, it's just profound.
And it usually, I think, speeds up the insight and progress when there's an art-making component, for sure.
First of all, thank you for coming and just talking about money so openly.
And how can people find you? What type of work? Where are you licensed? Do you do things outside of the States? You know what I mean.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm a bit of a cowgirl, okay? I will admit.
So here's my deal.
Here's my deal.
I'm in Colorado.
I, however, right now I have switched it.
All of my work is in a consulting and educational capacity.
And, um, I am a certified financial therapist, which means I apply financial therapy to my home base, which is mental health.
Um, however, you know, I do-- I work with people all over because I find it actually, like consultation, education is more important.
I really...
I use coaching so people understand what I'm talking about.
I don't love that phrase, as we all...
You know, that's a whole other episode about coaching.
Um, because I also say like, "I'm not, I'm not treating mental health."
This is a specialty that can enhance your work with someone else doing mental health.
That's often when I do one-on-ones, um, I don't require it, but I do, you know, ask, "Are you seeing someone?" And, and say like, "This really works well when like we're bringing stuff up that you can take to your therapist and back and forth."
Um, so it is a more like therapeutically informed consultation and education, I would say, 'cause I have, um...
I do one-on-ones, but I also have the membership, the Money Healing Club membership.
And, um, that's a place where it is, it's group work, it's community-based, um, to really kind of get a balance of the practical and emotional science of money thank you so much for coming on here and sharing your experience and what you do, and hopefully enlivening therapists and other people who are not therapists to, um, think about money more because it touches literally every part of our life.
Um And the little soapbox I will say Yeah, tell me the, your clients wanna talk about money and they don't know if they can with you.
And when you start doing your own money work, they will.
I have led retreats with therapists who have told me a week later, "Oh my God, my clients just started talking about money."
It's like, they could feel it.
They could do it.
Do your own work.
It's, I think it's an ethical thing.
I really think we need to do our own searching with that, and your clients will be able to feel it and your work will deepen Thank you so much, Rachel.
Thanks, Andy.
Thank you for having me