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Starting and Scaling a Law Firm: Building Culture and Fixing Systems · Coopers' Code

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  As you try cases, don't get too technical.
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  Think about your cases on the equities.
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  Why is it right for my client to win?
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  And explain that to the jury. The rest will fall into place.
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  Stay true to yourself, which sounds like a a cliche, but I
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  really mean it. Do cases that get you up in the
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  morning and you'll always want to get up in the morning.
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  You'll always want to go to work and finally, just be kind to
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  your opposing counsel, to your associates, to your clients.
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  And if you keep that in mind, you're.
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  Going to be a happy lawyer. Howdy, and welcome to the show.
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  Cooper's Code focuses on legal issues and notable
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  practitioners, distilling wisdom so we all achieve the best
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  results for our clients. I'm Miles Cooper and I'm very
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  excited for this conversation with Todd Schneider.
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  We'll settle a case where appropriate, but what we're not
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  going to do is settle a case for less value than we believe it's
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  worth. And I think that's why we end up
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  in trial. I also think it's important to
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  try your cases. The way you get best value for
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  any case is if the other side knows you're going to try it and
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  you don't. You don't win every nobody wins
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  every trial. But even if you go to trial
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  against a lawyer and you lose that case, that lawyer knows
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  you're going to try your next case.
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  And I think that has value as well.
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  Let's then pivot with, with your permission into the business of
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  law. Sure.
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  And one of the things I, I, I know again from doing the, the
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  preparation work is that your firm has some core values.
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  Can you talk about how you arrived at core values?
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  Why you think core values are important and and and how they
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  influence the practice your practice?
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  Sure. So I think core values, our
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  culture is as important as anything else in a law firm,
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  maybe more important than anything else in a law firm.
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  And there's a reason for that. Culture goes to why you go to
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  work every day, it goes to integrity, it goes to honesty,
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  and it goes to the joy of practicing law.
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  And so if if your culture can't foster all of those things, then
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  you've made a mistake. And so the question becomes, how
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  do you create a culture that does that?
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  And so I talked to you about the kinds of cases that we do, which
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  means we have to be able to make money to keep the lights on, and
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  we have to change the world just a little bit with each case that
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  goes to the joy of practicing law.
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  That's why we do this. I just don't want to do a case
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  that doesn't move the world forward and God forbid, moves
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  the world backwards. And I, I just don't want to do
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  that. So that's one.
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  Another core value that we have is we believe this is the phrase
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  we use, that fault is for insurance companies.
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  And what does that mean? That means that if something
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  goes wrong, it's important why it went wrong, because you don't
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  want it to go wrong again. But everybody has to own the
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  fact that it went wrong. And if I say it's your fault or
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  your fault, that means I don't have to own it, which is a
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  culture problem. I'd love to pause here and
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  unpack that a little bit. Sure.
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  Help us, something has gone wrong.
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  Yes. I don't really care what it is,
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  but can you illustrate the way in which that is handled within
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  the firm? And let's say it's something
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  significant, not a we need to call the malpractice insurer or
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  we need to flee the Bahamas, but something significant enough
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  where it's got your Todd's attention.
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  How do you go through the process of addressing it?
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  So the first thing I do is I call all stakeholders into a
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  meeting from the from the file clerk to me.
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  And I say to them, X has gone wrong.
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  I apologize to you. This is my fault.
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  And the reason it's my fault is because everything that happens
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  in this firm is my fault. But we need to get to the bottom
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  of how this happened. And we start walking through not
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  whose fault it is, but why it happened and where our processes
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  failed. And if you focus on processes,
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  what you find is that you can fix whatever the week leak was
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  that caused it to happen. You know the associate missed a
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  deadline. Why did 1 associate have the
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  deadline? Why didn't two or three people
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  have the deadline? Right?
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  Something got miscited in a brief.
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  Why were we relying on the paralegals to site check who
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  didn't read the case? I understand you didn't read the
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  case. Why didn't you read the case?
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  You're overloaded. You had too many briefs that
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  day. So there's a million reasons why
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  things can go wrong. And if I just said paralegal,
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  miss the site or junior associate didn't get the date,
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  it's going to happen again. But it also means that we all
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  don't own what we do. The third sort of core tenant in
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  our firm is we strive to do perfect work.
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  Now I'm under no illusion that we will always do perfect work
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  or frankly ever do perfect work. But if we strive to do perfect
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  work, if we cut no corners, what we're going to find is that our
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  work is great. And that's what's important.
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  Because I truly believe that oral argument, while it's
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  interesting, rarely sways a judge.
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  What wins cases is paper. I also believe that we're going
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  to lose the motions we're supposed to lose.
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  We're going to win the motions we're supposed to win.
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  It's the close calls that wins cases.
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  And unless you're better on the papers, you're always going to
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  lose the close calls. And if you do something like
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  miss cite a case intentionally or or or unintentionally, you
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  lose the trust of the judge. And the trust of the judge is
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  what gets you over the close calls.
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  The notion of coming in saying I apologize, this is my fault at
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  the outset, where did you learn that?
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  Well, because it's usually my fault, but I don't know where I
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  learned that. I really have.
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  I've never done anything else in my life.
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  I started this firm at 27. I had a job at a insurance
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  defense firm for 18 months, but I never had the benefit of
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  seeing how someone else managed. So I just kind of had to learn
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  to manage myself. And it just made sense to me
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  that if I'm going to ask you to trust me, I have to take
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  ownership. And the best way to do it is by
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  understanding that even if it had nothing to do with it, the
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  processes are something that I put together.
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  The firm is something that I put together.
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  It's my baby, so of course it's my fault.
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  The other thing that I've I find as as someone who has worked on
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  building a business, that business happens to be law and
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  law firm. Law school does not do us any
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  favors in terms of teaching that.
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  You seem to have some very core, almost MBA style approaches.
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  By that I mean core values. By that I mean ownership.
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  By that I mean developmental processes.
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  Where did you pick that up? Obviously I've read plenty about
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  management and I think anyone who runs the law firm should
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  read about management. I also think that people skills
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  are important, that no one's going to work for you and do
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  perfect work unless they want to, unless they're motivated to.
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  And so just like a football coach or anyone else you've had
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  in your life that you've wanted to do a good job for you, you
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  have to do a good job for them. And I I just think that's
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  obvious. From a management perspective,
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  you you talked about reading about management are are you now
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  a manager in any sense? Do you have direct reports or
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  are you kind of a a free floater and take command?
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  I am a manager in the sense that that top level of partners all
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  report up to me, so I'm a manager there.
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  I'm a manager in the sense, again, that if something goes
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  wrong, it's coming to me and I'm going to take responsibility and
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  I'm going to do that. Am I managing the day-to-day of
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  discovery? No.
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  Am I responding interrogatories and Rfas and RPODS?
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  No. Am I taking depositions in a
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  rare, rare, rare occasion? So I'm not managing litigation
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  the way I used to, but I do see myself very much as managing the
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  law firm. Are there other things on the
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  business of law that we haven't touched on that you think would
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  be useful for someone who might be thinking about running their
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  own firm or improving the way they run their firm?
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  Yeah, I do. Running your own from how to
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  start I think is important. And I think the best way to
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  start a law firm is to become an expert at something, right?
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  I started in 1993. The Americans with Disabilities
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  Act had come out in 1992, and nobody was practicing.
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  So I studied it. And I studied and I studied.
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  I became an expert. And then I realized there was
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  this niche where workers compensation lawyers would have
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  their people fired for their disabilities, and there was this
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  employment law niche there. So I became an expert and I went
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  and marketed, and then I spun that out into the next practice
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  area and the next practice area and the next practice area.
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  So if you just become an expert in something niche that the
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  market needs, it's a good way to start.
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  Once you do that, you need to ask a question.
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  What is the next thing around the corner that's tangentially
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  related? In my case was employment cases,
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  which turned into wage and hour cases, which turned into ERISA
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  cases. Eventually we're doing, you
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  know, class actions which turn into other class cases.
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  So if you just start niche and start to move out, you'll find
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  you're broad all the sudden. But even when you're broad,
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  there needs to be a thread that runs through it all.
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  For us, it's complex trial practice.
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  For others, it may be something else.
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  But your practice will run better if you're an expert.
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  And so I would say hone your expertise.
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  Don't chase the shiny object, which is an easy thing to do
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  right there. There's this whatever kind of
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  case that is that's popular today.
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  You chase that and then tomorrow something else becomes popular
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  and then you're playing that game of whack A mole your whole
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  career. So I think that's a mistake.
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  The other thing I think is important is sit down and think
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  about what you want your firm to be.
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  We talked about that. Be true to that.
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  When you do that process, is that something that you revisit
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  on a regular basis? Is that something that you dream
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  boarded 20 years ago? And Oh my gosh, here I am.
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  What? What does that look like for
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  you? It revisits you.
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  People that you work with will say to you, is this really what
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  we want to do? Is this what our culture really
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  is? And you're changing it always.
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  You're trying to figure out what motivates people, what makes
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  people happy, what makes people loyal to each other.
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  And those things can morph over time.
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  That's fine. As long as as long as they are
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  within your core values, that's all fine.
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  And anyone who doesn't have that vision, you either need to
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  convert them to the vision or you need to tell them maybe this
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  isn't the place for you. That's OK, that's there's
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  nothing wrong with people having a different vision than you.
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  But culture means keeping people with a similar vision together.
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  Do you find that you you hire using your values and your
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  culture? We do.
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  How does that look? So there's no litmus test.
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  We don't say, you know, here's a question, how would you do it?
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  But as you learn to interview people, you find questions that
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  kind of give you insights into the culture, but more
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  importantly, as you work with people, let me give you an
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  example. Cases going swimmingly and
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  discovery happens and you find a document that's the worst
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  document you've ever seen for your case, right?
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  And an associate comes to you and says, should I produce this
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  document? You could say, oh God, find a
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  reason not to produce that document.
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  Or you could say, well, is it privileged?
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  Is it relevant? Was it called for by the
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  discovery? And the answer is yes, you said
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  to that associate produce the document because in our culture
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  integrity matters. And it's not when it every cost,
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  it's it's when with integrity and do the best by your client.
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  And so you produce that we'll figure out a way around the
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  problem. But integrity matters.
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  And if you say that to people enough, they get it and they
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  understand, and it's quite liberating, right?
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  As we've talked through a number of different pieces of your
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  practice, there is one piece that I'd, I'd love to dive into
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  a touch and, and that is what ERISA litigation looks like.
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  And, and, and I'll explain why I, I think a lot of our
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  listeners, if, if they're knuckle draggers like me, think
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  of ERISA from self funded ERISA plans, where when you see that
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  on a medical lean, you're you, the F word pops to mind.
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  My impression is it, it's completely different in terms of
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  what you're doing. And can you help us understand
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  what that looks like? Sure.
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  So our ERISA practice tends to be large ERISA class actions.
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  Your 4-O1K for example is covered by ERISA.
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  So where an administrator of four O 1K plan is charging
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  excessive fees, for example, that's something we go after on
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  a class action basis where an investment is under
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  significantly underperforming, where the benchmark says it
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  should be earning 15% and for the last 10 years has been
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  earning 2%. There's probably a case there.
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  There's this series of cases that we call euphemistically
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  home cooking cases, where a an arrest plan only invests in
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  investments that it owns and those underperform.
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  Those tend to be good cases. So when we talk about ERISA,
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  we're talking most practitioners would think of them as
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  securities cases. OK.
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  But because there's security cases in four O 1 KS, they're
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  covered by ERISA. Understood.
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  Normally on on the lean side, the self funded ERISA world
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  means that there are a lot of rules that are not favorable for
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  us trying to deal with a lean. Is there a benefit to being in
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  ERISA world? Are there there teeth that ERISA
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  puts in that makes it favorable as far as why you do this kind
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  of work? The answer to that question is
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  twofold. 1 is I have a group of lawyers that are ERISA
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  specialists and I don't want to pretend that I'm an ERISA
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  specialist. Understood.
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  Not as you mentioned, it is a, it's a, it's completely
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  statutory. The case law is stick.
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  And I think to do those kinds of cases, you have to have the
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  expertise. There are some pieces of ERISA
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  that make it particularly good to bring.
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  For example, ERISA specifically says that one person can so on
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  behalf of the plan. So it's sort of a, a built in
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  class action. You can have classes that are
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  rather than groups of people, classes of plans.
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  So you've got the class members of plan itself rather than the
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  individuals. So in the class action world, we
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  would look at commonality, would look at numerosity, we look at
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  superiority, all of those things in in Rule 23, it tends to lend
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  itself better to Rule 23, a certification as a class of
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  plans that then it would look it was a class of individuals
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  because they're across separate companies.
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  So there's definitely some some some benefits of doing these
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  cases as ERISA cases. And you've got a fiduciary in
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  the plan administrator which helps.
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  There's also downsides. The case law can be mixed on
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  various things. The lawyers on the other side
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  are often the lawyers that designed the problem.
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  So there tends to be skin in the game for the lawyers, which
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  makes it more difficult than a case where there's not.
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  But it it's super interesting work.
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  Is there any sort of hallmark or giveaway that, say a lawyer with
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  a client who's got an injury case or an employment case where
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  they might see something that that would tip them to owe?
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  Maybe we should call somebody who has a specialty in this
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  area. What?
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  What types of patterns do you see that?
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  So anytime you're looking at a case where you've got a client
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  who had a BIG4O1K that now has a little 4-O1K, there tends to be
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  some problem that we should look at.
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  A client who is telling you that they're getting hit with a bunch
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  of junk fees in their four O 1K. Those are all all things you
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  would look for. I can't think of anything, you
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  know, with regard to the liens or anything like that that would
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  tip 1 off to the kind of ERISA cases that we do.
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  Just that helps me kind of understand what that landscape
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  looks like and also why it's the logical you talked about looking
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  around the next corner. That does seem very logical in
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  terms of the work that you've been doing.
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  That's right. As we kind of get into the, the,
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  what I sometimes describe as the as the wrap up phase, are there
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  any pieces of wisdom, any tips, any anything that we haven't
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  touched on that you think might be valuable for our listeners?
• 18:55
  Yeah, I think as you try cases don't get, don't get too
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  technical. Think about your cases on the
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  equities. Why is it right for my client to
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  win and explain that to the jury.
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  The rest will fall into place 2 is stay true to yourself, which
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  sounds like a, a cliche, but I really mean it.
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  Do cases that get you up in the morning and you'll always want
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  to get up in the morning. You'll always want to go to
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  work. And finally, just be kind to
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  your opposing counsel, to your associates, to your clients.
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  And if you keep that in mind. You're going to be a happy
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  lawyer. Well, you, you strike me as
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  somebody who has fulfilled that in terms of, of the way that you
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  come across you, you seem very fulfilled in the work that you
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  do. My wife likes to tell me when I
• 19:53
  complain because I do that if I didn't do it for a job, I do it
• 19:56
  for a hobby so I should stop complaining, which is probably
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  true. Well, that's, that's very sweet.
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  Well thought. I, I really appreciate you
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  taking the time to to come on the show.
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  Thank you for sitting down with. US, of course.
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  And thank you for listening today.
• 20:11
  Please e-mail us at podcast at Coopers dot law with questions,
• 20:13
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• 20:16
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• 20:24
  there. Happy hunting.