Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Mom disappears at midnight never seen again, her boys dead by ax, now Susan Powell’s parents sue DFACS!

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Mom disappears at midnight never seen again, her boys dead by ax, now Susan Powell’s parents sue DFACS! · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace as Arson. Investigators continued to
0:11
Speaker 1: search through what's left of the Powell home. The medical
0:13
Speaker 1: examiner now says seven year old Charlie in five year
0:16
Speaker 1: old Braiden Powell suffered chop injuries to their head and necks.
0:20
Speaker 1: The sheriff says their father, Josh Powell, then started the
0:24
Speaker 1: house on fire. They found two five gallon cans of gas.
0:28
Speaker 1: One of them was with the bodies, the other one
0:30
Speaker 1: we believe was spread throughout the house. There was accelerants
0:33
Speaker 1: throughout the whole entire house. Police say. Before he carried
0:36
Speaker 1: out the murder suicide, Powell donated his son's toys to
0:39
Speaker 1: charity and left instructions about his personal effects in multiple emails.
0:44
Speaker 1: He sent some emails out to family and a pastor
0:46
Speaker 1: and some other people, making sure that everybody knew that
0:50
Speaker 1: he was gone, that he was the one that did this.
0:52
Speaker 1: He had put a plan in motion and he carried
0:55
Speaker 1: it out. Powell had been under police scrutiny following the
0:58
Speaker 1: suspicious disappearance of his wife, Susan Cox Powell from their
1:01
Speaker 1: Utah home in December two thousand and nine. Six days ago,
1:05
Speaker 1: he lost a battle with Susan's parents for custody of
1:08
Speaker 1: his sons. You were hearing our friend at CBS, Ben Tracy,
1:12
Speaker 1: in the last days a major advance in the case
1:16
Speaker 1: regarding Susan Cox Powell and her beloved boys, Charlie and
1:22
Speaker 1: Braden Powell. I mean, see, Grace, this is crime stories.
1:25
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. I remember like it
1:28
Speaker 1: was yesterday when Susan Cox goes missing. She had been
1:34
Speaker 1: having so many problems with her weirdo husband Josh Powell
1:39
Speaker 1: and his freaky father in law, but she stayed in
1:43
Speaker 1: the marriage because of her two boys, Charlie and Braden.
1:48
Speaker 1: And then one night about midnight, husband Josh Powell says
1:53
Speaker 1: he takes the two little boys camping in the freezing cold.
1:59
Speaker 1: Listen to his explanation, Why take your two young sons
2:03
Speaker 1: camping after midnight, freezing cold temperatures. Well, we just go
2:12
Speaker 1: out and do things that are fun. But it's after midnight,
2:17
Speaker 1: you know it was. Shouldn't your son's be sleeping? Weren't
2:19
Speaker 1: they sleeping? People who know me know that time is
2:25
Speaker 1: hard for me to keep track of. I tend to
2:27
Speaker 1: be spontaneous. I do things in the spur of the moment.
2:31
Speaker 1: Why not call work the next morning to say, hey,
2:34
Speaker 1: I was out camping. I'm not going to be in today.
2:36
Speaker 1: To be honest, Saturday was a blur. I was convinced
2:40
Speaker 1: it was still Saturday. Convinced it was still Saturday, my
2:44
Speaker 1: rear end. That's a load of bs. And amazingly, that
2:48
Speaker 1: night he takes his two little boys, little boys out
2:52
Speaker 1: camping at midnight in freezing cold temperatures. Amazingly, that same night,
3:00
Speaker 1: his wife Susan Powell goes missing. She has never been
3:05
Speaker 1: seen again, nor has her body been found. Now, how
3:12
Speaker 1: is it that, with her missing and his flimsy explanation,
3:19
Speaker 1: he is allowed to see the boys? Why was he
3:25
Speaker 1: allowed to see the boys? What was de facts for
3:30
Speaker 1: the State of Washington Thinking Department, Family Children's Services, CPS,
3:34
Speaker 1: Child Protective Services? But they led him. They let the
3:38
Speaker 1: boys stay in the home. Take a listen to our
3:45
Speaker 1: friends at NBC. In two thousand and nine, Powell was
3:49
Speaker 1: named a person of interest in his wife Susan's disappearance.
3:52
Speaker 1: He was never charged with a crime, but in September
3:55
Speaker 1: lost custody of his boys to Susan's parents, allowed only
3:58
Speaker 1: supervised visits. I think he was very selfish and that's
4:03
Speaker 1: why he took the kids. Um, if he couldn't have them,
4:07
Speaker 1: no one could have them. Police say. Before his boys
4:10
Speaker 1: died in the fire, Josh get them both with a hatchet.
4:13
Speaker 1: Jennifer Graves is Pal's a strange sister. The thought of
4:17
Speaker 1: those baby suffering, and they must have because they weren't
4:25
Speaker 1: dead when they when the explosion was done, they suffered
4:31
Speaker 1: and they died. The heartache and panic from Sunday still
4:34
Speaker 1: vivid for that social worker two opened the door on
4:37
Speaker 1: the kids were one step. They had a meet at
4:39
Speaker 1: five and seven. They were one step. They had him
4:41
Speaker 1: me and he slammed the door on my Hey, the
4:43
Speaker 1: social worker's husband says his wife is devastated at the
4:46
Speaker 1: loss of Charlie and Braden. She had, of course bonded
4:51
Speaker 1: with these boys. She had taken them to a number
4:53
Speaker 1: of visits before and was very close to them. And
4:59
Speaker 1: it the fall, as I say, was the devastating. This
5:03
Speaker 1: happen our friends at NBC. Earlier you were hearing ABC
5:07
Speaker 1: an ABC interview with the dad Josh Powell. He doesn't
5:11
Speaker 1: even deserve that title. Dad joining me an all star
5:15
Speaker 1: panel and I'm going to kick it off with the
5:17
Speaker 1: attorney for Chuck and Susan Powell, high profile lawyer out
5:22
Speaker 1: of Seattle. And Bremner and Bremner, let's just get right
5:26
Speaker 1: down to it. I you know how I feel about
5:29
Speaker 1: Social Services, about Child Protective Services Department, Family Children Services.
5:35
Speaker 1: I think they all ought to go to jail because
5:37
Speaker 1: I have had it up to my eyeballs with children
5:40
Speaker 1: not being supervised and ending up tortured and dead dead,
5:45
Speaker 1: and in this case same thing. And Bremner, why were
5:50
Speaker 1: these children even having visits with a father who killed
5:55
Speaker 1: his wife? I mean, isn't it true, Ane Bremner. When
5:58
Speaker 1: the boys were asked, where's my mommy? Just you tell it, Anne,
6:02
Speaker 1: What picture did they draw of mommy? They had one
6:05
Speaker 1: of her in the back of the car, in the
6:06
Speaker 1: back of a van, in the trunk of the car.
6:08
Speaker 1: They talked back in mommy being in a mine. And
6:11
Speaker 1: of course they were witness. Wait wait wait, Anne, and
6:15
Speaker 1: Bremner is with me and she is a renowned trial lawyer,
6:18
Speaker 1: and Bremner just you just just spit it out like
6:21
Speaker 1: it said. I've turned on the cold water no in
6:25
Speaker 1: my kitchen. And Bremner and I still have it up
6:28
Speaker 1: when the children, I think we're in first or second grade.
6:30
Speaker 1: They drew a picture in my family and there I am,
6:33
Speaker 1: of course, wearing my black tights and a pair of
6:36
Speaker 1: boots and a brave shirt and my hair all crazy,
6:40
Speaker 1: and there's David in his workoutfit, and they put happy
6:45
Speaker 1: Mommy's happy Mommy, This Mommy, that Daddy. This. I'm not
6:50
Speaker 1: in a car trunk. That is not how they drew me. Okay,
6:56
Speaker 1: so let's just pause right there. Tell me slowly and
6:59
Speaker 1: Bremner what the picture was the boys drew of the
7:03
Speaker 1: last time they saw mommy. They had a picture basically
7:07
Speaker 1: of her in the trunk or back of a car.
7:10
Speaker 1: And remember and the trunk and the trunk, she's not
7:14
Speaker 1: in the way way back watching a movie on the
7:17
Speaker 1: in the car video, Mommy stuffed in the trunk. And
7:20
Speaker 1: it's a terrible case, Nancy. I mean, I don't think
7:23
Speaker 1: we need a shrink to tell me what that picture means.
7:26
Speaker 1: But I just happened to have one of the country's
7:29
Speaker 1: foremost forensic psychologists with me, doctor Daniel Bober. I mean, Bober,
7:35
Speaker 1: no offense, but I think we all know what it
7:38
Speaker 1: means when the little boy's picture of mommy and she's
7:41
Speaker 1: in the trunk and Daddy and the boys are driving,
7:45
Speaker 1: and then they say, where's Mommy. She's in the what
7:48
Speaker 1: they say and the mine shaft or the crystal marnship,
7:52
Speaker 1: Mommy was in a Mommy's in a mine. Mommy was
7:55
Speaker 1: looking for crystals. And then he had a drawing on
7:58
Speaker 1: the family outing show Susan in the trunk of a car. Okay, Bober,
8:03
Speaker 1: you're the shrink. What does that mean? Yeah, Nancy, you
8:06
Speaker 1: don't need a psychiatrist to figure this one out. I
8:08
Speaker 1: mean very often these pictures are representative of kids feelings
8:13
Speaker 1: because they can't verbalize their feelings and so they use
8:16
Speaker 1: it pictures to represent what they're feeling. So this is
8:20
Speaker 1: something that's pretty straightforward. It doesn't require a lot of interpretation.
8:23
Speaker 1: So explain to me, Anne Bremner, how in the H
8:27
Speaker 1: E Double L does Daddy with the picture of Mommy
8:32
Speaker 1: in the car trunk? How in the H E Double
8:36
Speaker 1: hill does he get visitation? And now the boys are dead?
8:41
Speaker 1: Social Services was part of this crime stories with Nancy Grace,
8:57
Speaker 1: the man the kilgrin, I could got the kilken and
9:00
Speaker 1: he wouldn't let me in the door. The social worker
9:04
Speaker 1: who brought seven year old Charlie in five year old
9:06
Speaker 1: Braden to their father Josh Powell's home. Immediately called nine
9:10
Speaker 1: one one A little boyfriend a house and as an
9:13
Speaker 1: adult man, he took a visitation and he bought out
9:16
Speaker 1: the house and a kid. From the beginning, it was
9:20
Speaker 1: clear this was no accident. And you think he might
9:23
Speaker 1: have done it intentionally. Yeah, Police say Powell planned the
9:27
Speaker 1: double murder a day before, purchasing ten gallons of gas,
9:31
Speaker 1: transferring seven thousand dollars out of his bank account, even
9:34
Speaker 1: giving away his children's toys. Oh this is Josh. I'm
9:40
Speaker 1: caring to say goodbye. Pale then left this chilling voicemail
9:44
Speaker 1: with family and friends twenty minutes before he torched his home.
9:48
Speaker 1: I am without and I'm not able to go on anymore.
9:59
Speaker 1: I'm to everyone. Oh, oh please just spare me. You're
10:05
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, You're not sorry. He murdered your wife, Susan,
10:10
Speaker 1: and you got away with it, and then you murdered
10:13
Speaker 1: your two little boys, Charlie and Braden. And the devil's
10:17
Speaker 1: henchman is Social Services, child Protective Services because they went
10:23
Speaker 1: along with these visits. And I don't care if you
10:26
Speaker 1: say supervised visits, supervised schmoopervice. If he wanted to kill
10:30
Speaker 1: these children, we already know he's a murderer, then a
10:34
Speaker 1: single woman, unarmed is not going to stop him. What
10:39
Speaker 1: we know now is there has been a major development
10:42
Speaker 1: in the case. And joining me right now, high profile
10:46
Speaker 1: lawyer out of Seattle, the lawyer four Chuck and Susan
10:50
Speaker 1: Powell and Bremner, And what is the development. We're suing
10:55
Speaker 1: Child Protective Services in the state of Washington. Pray the Lord,
11:00
Speaker 1: Praise they Lord. They're finally going to be held accountable. Now,
11:04
Speaker 1: I hear you say, sue sue that civil court. Only
11:09
Speaker 1: in criminal court can somebody go to jail. I think
11:11
Speaker 1: they should go to jail. But this is a start.
11:14
Speaker 1: And Brenner tell me about the lawsuit that Susan Powell's
11:18
Speaker 1: family is bringing against child Services. It's a case alleging
11:23
Speaker 1: that the state and Child Services fail to protect the
11:27
Speaker 1: kids from Josh Powell. And it's a bigger issue, Nancy,
11:30
Speaker 1: which is they've always had an emphasis of reunifying families
11:34
Speaker 1: at any costs versus looking at the bestest interests of
11:38
Speaker 1: the children. And we want the focus, of course to
11:40
Speaker 1: be on the ladder. And it should have been in
11:42
Speaker 1: this case. It's basically they were red flags in this
11:45
Speaker 1: case number one thing. And now you know how much
11:50
Speaker 1: I love you, Anne. You and I've shopped for a
11:53
Speaker 1: lipstick together. Okay, that goes a long way with me
11:57
Speaker 1: and I happen to know you'll only wear one type
12:00
Speaker 1: of lipstick, which is now no longer being manufactured. What
12:05
Speaker 1: is It's something like, yeah, it was a Chanel pink
12:10
Speaker 1: number one six nine. You always remember, Yeah, that's right,
12:13
Speaker 1: and I've got that written down by your name in
12:15
Speaker 1: my iPhone. But for those of you listening right now,
12:19
Speaker 1: what did you say? Chanel one six nine something pink?
12:23
Speaker 1: There was the lip claws don't make it any more, Nancy,
12:26
Speaker 1: I know, but maybe there's some bootleg out there we
12:29
Speaker 1: could find. I don't know how how could I possibly
12:31
Speaker 1: say red when it's clearly paying Karen Smith friends against
12:35
Speaker 1: first Probably just like just shaking at the thought of
12:39
Speaker 1: such a mistake. But you and I go way back
12:42
Speaker 1: a Bremner. We don't just pass this off. This is
12:46
Speaker 1: a big deal for all the mistakes Social Services has
12:51
Speaker 1: made over all the years, with all the children ending
12:55
Speaker 1: up dead on their watch, including Charlie and Braden. Finally,
13:00
Speaker 1: somebody is taking them on taking listen to our friends
13:05
Speaker 1: at TV five, This is Jed Bowl. Cox said that
13:08
Speaker 1: his attorn has suggested that he Suedes State and Child
13:11
Speaker 1: Protective Services, but he says that's as far as it's
13:13
Speaker 1: gone right now. But he does want more answers and
13:16
Speaker 1: safeguards for other children in similar circumstances. Last week, we
13:21
Speaker 1: discovered Josh Powell had hundreds of images of disturbing cartoons, sex,
13:26
Speaker 1: and graphic depictions of incest on his home computer at
13:30
Speaker 1: something Utah authorities investigating the disappearance of Susan Cox Powell
13:34
Speaker 1: kept private for two years. A Washington State psychologist saw
13:39
Speaker 1: those images only six days before Powell killed his boys
13:42
Speaker 1: and blew up his home. Chuck Cox says he always
13:45
Speaker 1: had concerns about supervision during Powell's visits with the boys.
13:50
Speaker 1: We felt there should have been, you know, some armed
13:53
Speaker 1: police officers or at three or four people at least
13:56
Speaker 1: just to make sure nothing went on there. Now, the
13:58
Speaker 1: Coxes and Senate Pam Roach want to find out what
14:02
Speaker 1: evidence that a vision of Child Protective Services had on Powell,
14:06
Speaker 1: evidence that might have blocked him from visiting the boys
14:09
Speaker 1: at all. Reports last week reveal Powell had been diagnosed
14:13
Speaker 1: with narcissistic personality disorder. He'd also been ordered to undergo
14:18
Speaker 1: a psychosexual evaluation, yet his visitation rights continued after that
14:23
Speaker 1: courtroom setback, so they knew he had mental issues, problems,
14:28
Speaker 1: and he was under such a great amount of stress.
14:30
Speaker 1: The Senator and the boy's grandparents will hold a meeting
14:33
Speaker 1: Thursday to explore what the Senator calls serious problems with
14:37
Speaker 1: CPS and to offer solutions for situations that may jeopardize
14:42
Speaker 1: a child. And as for suing the state, it has
14:45
Speaker 1: been discussed, it's being considered. Well, it's not just a
14:49
Speaker 1: thought anymore. That lawsuit is on. And when I think
14:54
Speaker 1: about these two little boys, Charlie and Braden, already having
14:58
Speaker 1: lost their mom, actually being in the car when their
15:02
Speaker 1: father disposed of her body, and now they're dead because
15:06
Speaker 1: social services did not bring out the evidence against the
15:11
Speaker 1: father who murdered them to a brand, high profile lawyer
15:16
Speaker 1: out of Seattle, Anne. When the images were found on
15:21
Speaker 1: the dad, Josh Powell's computer, cartoon images about incest. What
15:28
Speaker 1: exactly are we talking about? What were the images? Well,
15:32
Speaker 1: they're images of incest, mom kids, dad kids, very graphic
15:38
Speaker 1: and in some jurisdictions that's criminal, even though it's cartoon.
15:41
Speaker 1: There were four hundred images and they were known to CPS,
15:46
Speaker 1: and yet he still had visitation, and they were considered
15:49
Speaker 1: by doctor Manley who was evaluating him and talked about
15:53
Speaker 1: narcissistic traits, etc. And of course wanted a psychosexual evaluation,
15:57
Speaker 1: which would have meant, as you know, Nancy, polygraph and
16:02
Speaker 1: oh what a graph? Because I saw he had just
16:06
Speaker 1: spin around and she doesn't understand it. I know a
16:10
Speaker 1: lot of people don't explain. It's it's basically a testing
16:14
Speaker 1: for Davian arousalum, which could include incest. Okay, now well
16:18
Speaker 1: well wait, let's just break it down, am Bremmer. When
16:21
Speaker 1: you say deviant arousal and you just glossed over that
16:24
Speaker 1: so quickly, it's a test to do you know what, Bober,
16:27
Speaker 1: you're the forensic shrink, doctor Dingel Bober, explain what she's
16:31
Speaker 1: talking about, and please talk in regular people talk. Basically,
16:35
Speaker 1: Nancy looks at a rectile response to certain images, and
16:40
Speaker 1: they look at baseline images of normal heterosexual behavior, and
16:45
Speaker 1: they compare it, for example, with deviant images of children,
16:48
Speaker 1: and they look at the arousal response to the penis
16:51
Speaker 1: am Bremner. Instead of undergoing the polygraph and the platismograph,
16:59
Speaker 1: he killed his children and then killed himself. And Social
17:03
Speaker 1: Services had those records. They were evaluated just six days
17:07
Speaker 1: before the children were murdered. Look the other night, I
17:11
Speaker 1: woke up in the middle of the night because I
17:14
Speaker 1: was worried, I'm going to take the children camping, and
17:17
Speaker 1: I was worried who's going to stay with my mom?
17:20
Speaker 1: And I was worried about the caretaker to make sure
17:22
Speaker 1: she knew all the details. Three am, I was texting her,
17:26
Speaker 1: you can't tell me that six days pass and they
17:29
Speaker 1: have this knowledge and they do nothing about it. And
17:33
Speaker 1: now the boys were chopped dead with an axe. And
17:38
Speaker 1: not only that, but what people don't realize about this
17:41
Speaker 1: case is that there had been more secured visitation sites.
17:45
Speaker 1: But this was not the case. When the boys were killed.
17:48
Speaker 1: It was in the home that he had staged. It
17:50
Speaker 1: was a rental and there was no quote unquote supervision
17:53
Speaker 1: other than somebody bringing the kids into the house. So
17:56
Speaker 1: there was no security there and no true supervision from
18:00
Speaker 1: our perspective at the time, that the boys were hatcheted
18:03
Speaker 1: to death and then set on fire. Can I just
18:06
Speaker 1: say joining me. A former FBI special agent Jeff Cortes
18:13
Speaker 1: that the apple don't fall far from the tree crime
18:25
Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. Susan was very very sexual with me.
18:32
Speaker 1: She was very flirtatious. I mean, I'm her father in
18:36
Speaker 1: law and she she would do a lot of things
18:39
Speaker 1: that I mean, she was just she did it. I did.
18:44
Speaker 1: I mean, we interacted in a lot of sexual ways
18:47
Speaker 1: because Susan enjoys doing that. Do you think a part
18:52
Speaker 1: of you started falling in love with Susan. That's pretty likely. Yeah,
18:55
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I wouldn't say so, and and there's
18:59
Speaker 1: no question in my mind that the feelings were mutual.
19:02
Speaker 1: That is total b s. That is Josh Powell's father,
19:07
Speaker 1: who was convicted for all of his eavesdropping and spying
19:13
Speaker 1: and illicit photos of Susan Powell, claiming there was a
19:17
Speaker 1: relationship between them and catch this. Josh Powell went and
19:21
Speaker 1: lived with his dad after Susan was murdered, and he
19:26
Speaker 1: condoned this. His own father would get Susan's clothing, including
19:32
Speaker 1: her underwear, out of the dirty clothes hamper, lay it
19:34
Speaker 1: out on the bed as if in the shape of
19:37
Speaker 1: a person, and then put her a picture on top
19:40
Speaker 1: of it, her photo, her head, and then make out
19:44
Speaker 1: with her clothes. There were and Bremner helped me out
19:49
Speaker 1: how many hundreds of images were there that his Josh
19:53
Speaker 1: Powell's father had illicit images, Oh, too many to count,
19:57
Speaker 1: and there were seven different computers or more. He was
20:00
Speaker 1: filming the little girl's next store naked and so many
20:04
Speaker 1: pictures of Susan that he would more of her, including
20:07
Speaker 1: putting his private part near her mouth in a picture
20:11
Speaker 1: of things like that. And you know, when the child
20:14
Speaker 1: Protective Services took those kids, they were aware of that
20:18
Speaker 1: these images had all been that were there from the
20:20
Speaker 1: father and also aware that that was a house where
20:23
Speaker 1: there's a news hanging from the ceiling and a picture
20:25
Speaker 1: of a woman with a sort of her vagina and
20:28
Speaker 1: then private things belonging to Susan. He was obsessed with Susan,
20:34
Speaker 1: and now Susan is dead. Levi page with me Crime
20:37
Speaker 1: online dot Com investigative reporter. Josh Powell's father went to jail.
20:43
Speaker 1: Are you familiar with that case? Levi? Yes, he went
20:45
Speaker 1: to jail for everything that we're talking about now, and
20:48
Speaker 1: then he died a couple of years later, not that
20:51
Speaker 1: long ago, Nancy, and this guy was really sick. And
20:54
Speaker 1: this entire family, the Powell family apparently was very troubled.
20:58
Speaker 1: Because there's Michael Pale, the father of Josh Pale. He
21:02
Speaker 1: got rid of his vehicle not long after Susan Pale vanished,
21:06
Speaker 1: and police seized that vehicle and they detected human decomposition
21:12
Speaker 1: inside that vehicle. A cadaver dog detected that. And then
21:17
Speaker 1: a year after his brother, Josh Pale committed suicide, Michael
21:22
Speaker 1: Pale committed suicide in twenty thirteen. And police believe that
21:27
Speaker 1: those two brothers, Josh Pale and Michael Pale, along with
21:32
Speaker 1: their father, knew exactly what happened to Susan. And that's
21:37
Speaker 1: very disturbing that the three of them knew and did
21:40
Speaker 1: not tell law enforcement about it too. FBI Special Agent
21:45
Speaker 1: Jeff Cortesi Jeff, I mean, in my mind, this is
21:49
Speaker 1: a treasure trove of evidence, and I don't understand why
21:54
Speaker 1: authorities did not act when they could, and they kept
21:59
Speaker 1: letting these two little boys go for visits with the father. Jeff,
22:06
Speaker 1: this scene was so stage. I mean, Powell blew up
22:09
Speaker 1: the house with the children in it, but only later
22:14
Speaker 1: was it learned that he chopped them with an axe first,
22:18
Speaker 1: and in my mind, Social Services is right there in it. Nancy,
22:21
Speaker 1: this is this is one of those cases that is
22:24
Speaker 1: incredibly difficult to consider and think about it. You know,
22:27
Speaker 1: I try to put myself in the position of the
22:29
Speaker 1: other law enforcement officers who are investigating this case, and
22:32
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine what they felt going through this process.
22:38
Speaker 1: You know, they had a great deal of evidence, says
22:39
Speaker 1: you pointed out it was everywhere, but ultimately law enforcement,
22:44
Speaker 1: if Susan Powell is determined to be dead, then what
22:48
Speaker 1: they really want is to find the body. And you know,
22:51
Speaker 1: if if there was any opportunity missed, potentially it probably
22:57
Speaker 1: is the December eighth to December tenth window. So just
23:01
Speaker 1: the couple days after Susan Powell went missing. Turns out
23:07
Speaker 1: Josh rented a vehicle, disappeared for a couple of days,
23:12
Speaker 1: traveled eight hundred miles at least put eight hundre miles
23:15
Speaker 1: on the vehicle. I think that that was a window
23:18
Speaker 1: of the opportunity that may have been missed. He could
23:20
Speaker 1: have been meeting with co conspirators. Coincidentally, his father was
23:24
Speaker 1: called in sick over the December eighth and December ninth
23:27
Speaker 1: time period. You know, the whole thing is a travesty.
23:31
Speaker 1: The evidence is everywhere. There were opportunities missed, but as
23:36
Speaker 1: far as child services, the writing was more than on
23:38
Speaker 1: the wall. Well here's the way the whole thing shook
23:41
Speaker 1: out to Anne Bremner, high profile lawyer out of Seattle,
23:45
Speaker 1: and the lawyer for the Powell family. What we know
23:48
Speaker 1: is that the grandfather, Susan's father in law, Josh Powell's
23:54
Speaker 1: father was convicted of child porn in voyeurism on little girls.
24:00
Speaker 1: But following Susan's death her disappearance, he Josh Powell was
24:07
Speaker 1: allowed to take the children and move in with his
24:11
Speaker 1: perverted dad in Washington State, taking the little boys with him.
24:19
Speaker 1: Stephen Powell, the grandfather, was arrested her child porn and
24:24
Speaker 1: that is when Susan's family, the Coxes, filed for custody
24:30
Speaker 1: of the boys. They got temporary custody, and long story short,
24:37
Speaker 1: I don't understand how Social services went along with the
24:42
Speaker 1: two little boys getting visitation with their dad that murdered
24:46
Speaker 1: their mom. It should just becompencens nancy. That's what we've
24:49
Speaker 1: always said. I if there's probable caused to believe that
24:53
Speaker 1: a parent caused the disappearance of another parent or killed him,
24:57
Speaker 1: they shouldn't have access to the children. We even try
25:00
Speaker 1: to get a lot passed to that effect in Washington State,
25:03
Speaker 1: a state with Senator Roach. It didn't pass one like
25:06
Speaker 1: it did pass in Utah. You know where Susan had
25:09
Speaker 1: lived previously. But that's a very basic concept. On that
25:14
Speaker 1: faithful day, and listen to this, social services allowed this dad,
25:20
Speaker 1: this murderous father, with child porn cartoons on his laptop,
25:28
Speaker 1: have visitation three days a week with the little boys.
25:34
Speaker 1: On that day, he had a scheduled visitation day with
25:37
Speaker 1: Charlie and Braden. As they come to the door, he
25:43
Speaker 1: quickly grabs the boys, pulls them in and shuts and
25:46
Speaker 1: locks it. He axes them dead and blows up the home. Listen, hey,
25:52
Speaker 1: I'm on a tip of visitation for a cord or
25:55
Speaker 1: to get it, and I'm something really weird had happened
25:58
Speaker 1: to kipping into the house and the parents, the biological
26:02
Speaker 1: parent and saying that stock Powe will not let me
26:04
Speaker 1: in the door. What should I do? What? It's eight
26:10
Speaker 1: one one and I think it's eighty nine. Um, I
26:15
Speaker 1: don't know what the idents pretty important for me to know.
26:19
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna let me get in my carent find it.
26:24
Speaker 1: I'm nothing like this has ever happened before. Um indications,
26:32
Speaker 1: So I'm moving UM shocked and I could care really shocked.
26:37
Speaker 1: Then why did you let the children go in the
26:40
Speaker 1: house without you? Now listen to the rest of this
26:44
Speaker 1: call the house in the house, Yes, there was a
26:52
Speaker 1: man and the children. I just dropped off the children
26:55
Speaker 1: and he wouldn't let me in the door. And the
26:57
Speaker 1: people are saying, there's not somebody care. But I get there.
27:00
Speaker 1: I mean, if somebody get the little boy from the house.
27:03
Speaker 1: You saw him go back into the house from the
27:05
Speaker 1: plane right before the plane. He can ever leave the
27:09
Speaker 1: house because they open the door. They kids work, kids
27:12
Speaker 1: were one step. They had to meet at five and seven.
27:14
Speaker 1: They were one step. They had a me and the
27:16
Speaker 1: flammed the door. In my faith, and you think he
27:18
Speaker 1: might have done it intentionally? Yeah, I don't understand why
27:22
Speaker 1: they were having visitation helped me out, Am Bremner. And
27:26
Speaker 1: what is the purpose of the lawsuit. This is a
27:29
Speaker 1: major development social services for the State of Washington finally
27:35
Speaker 1: being sued. Well, the purpose is to ship that focus,
27:39
Speaker 1: Like I talked about to the best interests of the children.
27:42
Speaker 1: This is the worst case I think that any of
27:44
Speaker 1: us have ever seen in terms of a child custody
27:47
Speaker 1: matter or visitation involving a state. And my clients don't
27:53
Speaker 1: want the deaths of these children to be in vain.
27:55
Speaker 1: They want their children's lives to mean something. To the
27:59
Speaker 1: safety of all your kids, you know in the state
28:01
Speaker 1: of Washington that may be subjected to confines by the
28:06
Speaker 1: state or dictates by the state, visitation, foster care, etc.
28:10
Speaker 1: Or custody. We really want people to see the kind
28:14
Speaker 1: of red flags that should be looked at, Like in
28:16
Speaker 1: this case, there was a search warrant issued by judge.
28:19
Speaker 1: A judge found probable cause that Josh had killed his wife.
28:23
Speaker 1: They knew that the state of the home, the porn
28:25
Speaker 1: in the home, the fact that Josh had taken out
28:27
Speaker 1: three point five million dollars in insurance on his wife
28:30
Speaker 1: and kids, the fact that he was despondent about the
28:33
Speaker 1: psycho sexual evaluation, the fact that he was controlling the kids,
28:37
Speaker 1: the fact that the kids were now speaking more and
28:39
Speaker 1: more about what they saw that night when there were
28:42
Speaker 1: two and four. They're getting older and they're articulating what
28:45
Speaker 1: they saw. They were witnesses to their mom's demise. All
28:49
Speaker 1: of those things were of great concern, but yet they
28:52
Speaker 1: were they were ignored, those signs, those red flags, didn't
28:55
Speaker 1: we believe, Anne Bremner, do you believe that in Social
28:58
Speaker 1: services files there was amming evidence against Josh Powell, but
29:02
Speaker 1: he was allowed to have visitation with the boys even
29:06
Speaker 1: though Social Services knew all of this information. It's our contention, Nancy,
29:11
Speaker 1: in this case that they knew all of this information.
29:13
Speaker 1: Have you ever been able to look in those files?
29:16
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen what's in them? And Bremner, I have,
29:18
Speaker 1: and we've conducted discovery in this case for quite some time,
29:21
Speaker 1: and we've been up to the Ninth circuiting back in
29:22
Speaker 1: this case, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, and the
29:26
Speaker 1: files have a lot of information about the visitations, but
29:28
Speaker 1: they also have information about Josh Powell. They never even
29:32
Speaker 1: determined whether or not he was complicit in the pornography
29:35
Speaker 1: that was in that house where the boys were residing.
29:37
Speaker 1: They'd never figured out whether or not there should be
29:40
Speaker 1: a domestic violence assessment of him. There never was one,
29:42
Speaker 1: even though there was problem causibly he killed his wife.
29:45
Speaker 1: All of these kinds of things are in the files.
29:47
Speaker 1: Everything's written down. But actions speak louder than words, or
29:51
Speaker 1: in action speaks louder, frankly in this case, and that
29:54
Speaker 1: was not acting quickly enough to save them. Not acting
29:57
Speaker 1: quickly enough. Years go by, and then six days before
30:01
Speaker 1: the boys are murdered. You have a shrink looking at
30:04
Speaker 1: all of this, insist porn child porn cartoons, but they
30:10
Speaker 1: did nothing. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. In a court
30:25
Speaker 1: filing this past Wednesday, he made a strong appeal, I've
30:28
Speaker 1: proven myself as a fit and loving father who provides
30:31
Speaker 1: a stable home even in the face of great adversity.
30:34
Speaker 1: A lesser person would fall under the intense scrutiny I
30:37
Speaker 1: am facing. But the judge requested a lie detector test
30:40
Speaker 1: and further evaluation. I don't think the order of the
30:44
Speaker 1: evaluation caused this. I think that this has been coming.
30:50
Speaker 1: It's been brewing for a long long time. And even
30:54
Speaker 1: though the family begged the court for help, those visitations
30:59
Speaker 1: were in place and they were allowed. The boy's grandparents
31:03
Speaker 1: say they are convinced that Josh Powell saw the kids
31:06
Speaker 1: as his own like possessions, and he didn't want anyone
31:10
Speaker 1: else to have them. Her blood sister told me the
31:13
Speaker 1: parents begged for him not to have visitation at all.
31:17
Speaker 1: I mean, come on, what mortia want? The mom has
31:20
Speaker 1: been murdered. She was taken out of Josh Powell's home
31:24
Speaker 1: and murdered with the boys in the car. He also
31:29
Speaker 1: had them in a scenario with his father, who was
31:33
Speaker 1: now behind bars for child pornography. Under these circumstances, the
31:39
Speaker 1: judge should not have ordered visitation at Josh Powell's home
31:43
Speaker 1: and who could have stopped that? Social Services now being sued.
31:48
Speaker 1: That was me speaking with ABC's Neil Karlinski and Bremner.
31:54
Speaker 1: This lawsuit that the Powells, who you represent are filing
32:00
Speaker 1: against Social Services could be a landmark case across our country.
32:05
Speaker 1: What do you think? I hope so, I really hope so.
32:08
Speaker 1: I mean I've practiced lawn nancy now for thirty six
32:12
Speaker 1: years and it would be my greatest honor an achievement
32:18
Speaker 1: to see that happen in this most tragic case. Karen
32:21
Speaker 1: Smith with me, a forensic expert, founder of Bare Bones
32:25
Speaker 1: Consulting to you, Karen Smith, what do you expect will
32:31
Speaker 1: be in those child services files? Listen, You've got photographs
32:36
Speaker 1: of the crime scene. This is all discovery, Nancy. Everybody
32:40
Speaker 1: pretty much should have everything at this point. The police
32:43
Speaker 1: reports all of the information that thought the homicide detectives,
32:47
Speaker 1: the patrol officers who first responded to the house and
32:50
Speaker 1: saw floor fans in the house pointing at a sofa
32:55
Speaker 1: that had freshly been cleaned along with the carpeting. Clue
32:59
Speaker 1: phone for you. They did testing on that sofa. They
33:03
Speaker 1: sprayed luminol on it and the carpet. There are impacts
33:07
Speaker 1: spatters all over the place, which is indicative of some
33:12
Speaker 1: kind of blunt force trauma. The blood came back to
33:15
Speaker 1: Susan Powell. I don't understand, first of all, how charges
33:19
Speaker 1: weren't brought right then, and let alone Department of Children
33:23
Speaker 1: and Family Services ignoring all of that in the face
33:27
Speaker 1: of her disappearance and these two little boys in their safety.
33:30
Speaker 1: I am dumbfounded right now, Nancy, Well listen to this.
33:34
Speaker 1: And Child's Services knew this. The day after Susan goes missing,
33:38
Speaker 1: four year old Charlie tells the cops he knew exactly
33:42
Speaker 1: where his mom was, that they had all gone on
33:45
Speaker 1: a quote midnight drive and she stayed at a place
33:49
Speaker 1: A boy called the quote Dinosaur National Park, that quote,
33:53
Speaker 1: my mom stayed where the crystals are because it has
33:56
Speaker 1: so much pretty where the crystals grow. That's what he
34:02
Speaker 1: told police. But knowing that Child Services still did not
34:09
Speaker 1: open up their files and allow a judge to make
34:13
Speaker 1: an informed decision. Let me understand something to Anne Bremner,
34:19
Speaker 1: is it true that two of the social service workers
34:22
Speaker 1: have gotten immunity. There was a court finding of immunity
34:26
Speaker 1: in this case qualified an absolute immunity. And also Nancy,
34:31
Speaker 1: with respect to those Utah files, a court there had
34:35
Speaker 1: a gag order on a ceiling of those files. One
34:39
Speaker 1: final thing on that issue. Nancy, one of the case
34:42
Speaker 1: workers in our case, said the people in Washington State
34:45
Speaker 1: at CPS couldn't look at other states evidence. That is
34:49
Speaker 1: a lie. That is an outright lie. I don't believe
34:52
Speaker 1: that for one minute. And Bremner, when it comes to
34:54
Speaker 1: the safety of children, absolutely, That's why that's where we
34:58
Speaker 1: have We've had so many changes. Aolunteers a cooperation between
35:01
Speaker 1: states and other in different agencies. It's to make sure
35:04
Speaker 1: that we don't have problems like this where there's information
35:07
Speaker 1: that's not fully known, but it was very public about
35:10
Speaker 1: the camping trip about what the kids had said. And
35:12
Speaker 1: of course, like I said before, there was that search
35:14
Speaker 1: warrant affidavit and a finding a problem caused by the
35:18
Speaker 1: judge in the warrant included all the things we just
35:20
Speaker 1: talked about in terms of probable cause for belief that
35:23
Speaker 1: Josh Powell, for the belief that Josh Powell killed his wife.
35:26
Speaker 1: You know, the signals are so alarming. One day Charlie
35:31
Speaker 1: comes into kindergarten says his brother was dead, and more
35:36
Speaker 1: and more we're starting to say odd things about death.
35:41
Speaker 1: Clearly the murder of his mother was gnawing on this
35:45
Speaker 1: child's mind. To Karen Smith at Bare Bones Consulting, there
35:53
Speaker 1: was a treasure trove of evidence, but it was ignored
35:57
Speaker 1: and now the boys are dad. Karen understatement, I can't
36:02
Speaker 1: believe the amount of evidence that police found in this
36:05
Speaker 1: house blood evidence alone, Nancy, not including the cars, not
36:10
Speaker 1: including the human decom not including what they found at
36:13
Speaker 1: the abandoned car at the airport. I'm talking about the
36:16
Speaker 1: initial search warrant served at this house with the carpeting
36:19
Speaker 1: and the couch that were being dried by floor fans. Listen,
36:23
Speaker 1: they did their job. They sprayed luminal, they had the
36:26
Speaker 1: blood stained patterns, they had everything, they did, the DNA testing,
36:30
Speaker 1: they did, the swabs. It all came back to Susan Powell.
36:32
Speaker 1: I cannot understand. I understand they want the body. You
36:36
Speaker 1: don't have to have one to bring charges against someone.
36:39
Speaker 1: And I have had cases with a lot less evidence
36:42
Speaker 1: and a lot less informations. In this case brought charges
36:46
Speaker 1: and a conviction in a court of law. So I'm
36:49
Speaker 1: really struggling with understanding why Josh Powell was not arrested
36:54
Speaker 1: and grilled in the box to find out what the
36:58
Speaker 1: heck happened Jeff courtesy for we're FBI special agent, what
37:02
Speaker 1: should have happened? I think ultimately what should have happened
37:05
Speaker 1: is charges should have been brought. Um. I think certainly
37:12
Speaker 1: the evidence was there with the blood splatter with I mean,
37:15
Speaker 1: the cases riddled with evidence. Everywhere you look, were signs
37:21
Speaker 1: of foul play everywhere you look. We're over actions by
37:27
Speaker 1: Josh to to avoid implicating himself, you know, handing over
37:31
Speaker 1: cell phones without SIM cards, the disappearing for a couple
37:34
Speaker 1: of days, you know, the brothers car. The investigation from
37:39
Speaker 1: top to bottom is sufficiently filled with with with evidence, um,
37:47
Speaker 1: I like you and your other guests are a little dumbfounded,
37:50
Speaker 1: to say the least that the charges weren't brought. I
37:54
Speaker 1: understand the overall idea of trying to find the body,
37:58
Speaker 1: but at the sense of dragging this out and exposing
38:02
Speaker 1: others too harm, especially those boys, was just unconscionable. Well,
38:07
Speaker 1: Social Services sitting on this information and going along with
38:11
Speaker 1: these visits unforgivable. And Bremner, the civil trial against the
38:16
Speaker 1: Washington State Department of Social and Health Services in connection
38:22
Speaker 1: with the death of the two little boys has been set.
38:26
Speaker 1: It will go down at the Pierce County Court in Washington.
38:30
Speaker 1: What do you want the outcome to be? And Bremner,
38:33
Speaker 1: I would like to see a jury, and it will
38:35
Speaker 1: be a jury make findings that red flags were ignored
38:39
Speaker 1: in this case. I'd like to see a jury acknowledge
38:42
Speaker 1: that there should be certain protocols in place in this
38:45
Speaker 1: state to make sure that kids like Charlie and Braden
38:48
Speaker 1: aren't horrifically murdered. And I'd like to see a public
38:52
Speaker 1: airing of this case so that everybody, all the citizens
38:55
Speaker 1: of the state of Washington, can see what went right,
38:58
Speaker 1: if anything, and what went wrong to make sure this
39:00
Speaker 1: never never happens again. And I'd like to see a
39:03
Speaker 1: focus on the kids, just the best interest of the child.
39:06
Speaker 1: It's so simple. We don't want to reunify families when
39:10
Speaker 1: this is going to happen. This kind of strategy is
39:11
Speaker 1: going to happen, and we see it over and over
39:13
Speaker 1: and over again. We have to look at what's best
39:15
Speaker 1: for the children and follow that every single time. Well,
39:18
Speaker 1: apparently I'm not going to get my wish, and that
39:21
Speaker 1: is for Social Services to do hard jail time because
39:24
Speaker 1: I believe they were aiding and embedding a situation that
39:29
Speaker 1: ended in the murders of little Charlie and Braden. We
39:33
Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace crime story, signing off
39:38
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,