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From Anger to Awe: David Mersky on Forgiveness, Psychedelics, and the Search for Meaning · Rooted & Real With Keenan

• Keenan: All right. Well, David, thank you so much for coming on today. I know you have a lot of wisdom and a lot of cool things to share. You're in Arizona? David Mersky: Yes, right outside of Phoenix, generally central central Arizona. Keenan: Okay. Yeah. Okay. Cool, man. So, you know, ask everybody the same question up front and it's what's your story? How did you, David, become the man that you are today? Trials, tribulations, like how did you arrive at where you're at today? So what's your story? David Mersky: Yeah, like like a lot of people, a completely unintended route to get where I am now, which is kind of the advice that I impart to my kids, which is why they're all different people and I don't try to put on them anything like my my wants and my desires or I I I try to keep it very fluid and recognize in them that they're their own people too, because my life didn't turn out at all like I would have thought it would. And so I Keenan: Mm. David Mersky: I try to be very, you know, open about that, especially with them. So I I try to be very honest about that. I am I'm a lawyer by trade. You know, I did the college thing. I got married really early, met my wife in college, we both went to law school together and started to practice and and so it was a you know, so we've been together for a very, very long time. And and that's been my saving grace, by the way, in general. Like I'll backstop Whatever we get into in our conversation, that if I didn't have my wife, I probably wouldn't be here today. Forget about the the person that I am. so I Keenan: Yeah. Wow. David Mersky: I credit most of that to her. I I I I tell everyone I I got lucky in the in the relationship. She's she's a better person than I am, and I'm lucky to have her. So, you know, it's always good to try and and feel that way. I think about your partner for those people that are, you know, together that you want to kind Keenan: for sure. David Mersky: of And this is central to my message too, which is, you know, you you want to kind of wake up and try to put the other person's priorities first, ahead of yours. And if you can if they can do the same thing, you kind of get to the same place at the end, like your wants and needs and desires are taken care of, but you do it from a a place of caring about somebody else first. And I I I found that that's a better way to get there, even though again, I'm probably not as good at doing that as she is. But So so I did like the whole normal, you gotta go to college, you know. I'm I'm that Gen X generation. And then, Keenan: Okay. Yeah. David Mersky: you know, go to school, get the education, you gotta work hard. And but I never liked practicing law. and then about about 10 years into my career, I had a chance to move from New York to Arizona, where my family had relocated sort of slowly over the years. And and I went into another business that I had an opportunity to with family, but then like my life turned upside down. And just a couple of short years into that move, and I'm forever grateful to have moved to Arizona. and and I think it's a magical place and it's certainly central to what I'm doing now. So for all and I'll preface this like for all the the hardest things in my life have turned out to be, I think, the greatest gifts because they put Keenan: Mm. David Mersky: me on a path that Although at the time I never would have known it. I, you know, you wouldn't be here today doing what I'm doing, or anybody for that matter, if Keenan: For sure. David Mersky: everything didn't exactly happen in the way it did. But so I I got into so a couple of years into this new business, it was booming, we were doing really well, but it it it was really a 06. And then about after a couple of years, remember we hit the financial crisis of 2008. Keenan: Yep. Mm-hmm. David Mersky: And like everything shut down. And but I have I transitioned rather quickly into another business that actually started to really flourish in the in that economy by giving people like additional work opportunities that they could do from home. And the thing really grew like gangbusters, but we relied on all these outside companies to send us salespeople that we trained and ultimately put in business. and and We had a problem because these sales companies use some a lot of times unethical tactics on the people that they refer to us and sort of charge them a lot of money for other products and services. And and and I kind of got caught up in that where you know the government got involved and we were trying to tell them, and we thought we were very successful. That, you know, look, this isn't us, and we want you to be clear about what's going on, and these are the relationships. We've got 50,000 agents, and you know, this is what we do. You know, you can come into our business anytime, and you know, we're trying to handle these complaints and we're taking all these precautions. But it really, I think, got out of hand to the point that although we were assured we were we had nothing to worry about, in April of 2010, the the state government came in. And basically they didn't close our business down, but they made it impossible to work. And they sued me for $79 million. $79 million. Keenan: my gosh. Jeez. David Mersky: And on top of that, they used a tactic that is still employed today, although not as much, and I hope l it it goes away altogether, called civil civil asset forfeiture. And it's basically a civil lawsuit, but Wrapped up with these quasi-criminal comp allegations where they are allowed to, without any opposition, in advance, seize your assets. So any money I had that wasn't in under a cushion was seized, even though it was just a regular lawsuit and nothing was proven, and we had no chance to contest that. And so I'm sued for 79 million, but I also then have no money. And so I am like forced to deal with this situation. It's like turmoil, like a tsunami. And people then this was published in the press and people had no idea what to make of it. And when you read these kind of allegations, people assume the worst and they assume that the government, you know, wouldn't be doing this if you didn't do anything kind of a deal. so my life was completely upended. If you fast forward, this took six and a half years to go through and finally resolve. And it resolved in my favor completely in that the the the lawsuit was dismissed. I got my assets and my money back. you know, my houses were leaned. And there there were like many, many other people that were involved in this. The government likes to make these huge sweeping cases. And so I I think most people like We're in the same situation. A lot of people got their assets back and so forth. and so the government really walked away after years with nothing and they proved nothing. They didn't even make an attempt to. But so I'd like to say that in that way it resolved favorably. But what I was left with after six years was I was broken. And, Keenan: Mm. David Mersky: you know, you know, I had to figure out along that way how to survive, how to eat, how to raise my kids, right? Like nothing Keenan: Yeah. David Mersky: stops. And the crazy Keenan: Right. David Mersky: thing is, is like I'm the only one in this tsunami. So like you have friends and family, people that are there for you, but there's not much that people can do. So like people were immensely helpful and and they really did get us through. But again, it's it's such a limited way. It's like you're not, you know, I'm not there's no job there, you know. I still have to put the lights on and and put food in my kid's stomach and And then all of those things you plan as a family, like I didn't go on any vacations, right? Like I had nothing. And it was you know, trying to navigate that when people are kind of living normal lives, is really, really difficult. And so what happened was Keenan: Right. David Mersky: I was ultimately when I was after six years, I was left with this deep-seated anger and resentment and just Keenan: Mm. Yeah. David Mersky: hatred for these people that brought a this case against me. That was ultimately dismissed. and it was so abusive that, you know, I didn't realize how deep-seated that these feelings were. And, Keenan: Yeah. David Mersky: you know, it's so hard to see that in yourself without like the perspective. And coincidentally or not, I think it was intended. But a couple of friends of mine at that time, right when the case ended, they approached me and they said, Did you ever hear of this thing called ayahuasca? And I said, No. They said, well, you know, let's look into this. And I had never heard of it. And so ayahuasca is this psychedelic substance. It's a brew that comes from the Amazon that the Amazonians and people in the jungles, usually in South America, but it's across the world now, have have used in this spiritual ceremonial practice to help yourself to help you know to to get over problems, to get over traumas, to figure out what life is about, how to deal with, you know, the these issues. And, you know, this is a psychedelic compound. and it it really has to be done with the guidance and supervision of someone who's trained in this particular medicine, unlike other psychedelics that, you know, like mushrooms or LSD, that, you know, usually you you'll have supervision, hopefully like when you get started, but ayahuasca, like you need like a shaman. At all times because it's it's very specialized in that way. So and I had never done a psychedelic in my life. Like I'm not I was not a drug user, even recreationally, drank very little alcohol, even to this day, just not my thing. So to jump into like something like that, I didn't even know what I was looking at. And I didn't realize until I started to really consider it that. that I had this anger and like that became my purpose to try and get rid of this if that was possible and just kind of seek some assistance in any way because like I was kind of lost at that time, just looking for some way out, looking for a new start. And Keenan: For sure. David Mersky: you know, almost had like nothing left to lose. And and so and like a lot of people that come to the the medicine, there there there is frequently some kind of trauma or some kind of reason. Not always. But certainly in my case it it was. And so this was going to be held in the desert in Tucson. And and Keenan: Okay. David Mersky: so I said yes. And it was some months out. And so we planned it and then I started the preparation, started to do the research, and then we just said, Yeah, okay, we're we're in. And February of 2017. So this is my my whole kind of new life path is almost 10 years now in the making already at this point. Keenan: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. David Mersky: And so that was my first experience. And we went down to the desert and we're in a group of about 15 people with maybe five facilitators and a main shaman. And you you know, you go up and you take the drink and you go back to your little mat and you kind of wait for things to happen, and and it happened. Keenan: So what were your feelings going into this? I mean, you use words like psychedelic, the desert. I'm kinda like, Okay, like someone might be like, Ooh, that sounds kinda something. David Mersky: Yeah. And and again, like I had no experience in this. Keenan: Right. Yeah. David Mersky: I I had, you know, never done a psychedelic drug. And so I had no idea really what to experience. And I'm surprised that I was as open as I was. But I I I just have to say that I think the trauma that I went through was sort of this motivating force that pushed me to do it. But I was, you know, clearly, you know, I was just open to it because I was just saying, like, if there's anything out there that can help me. put me on a path, like I'm ready for it. And so when you kind of do the research, there's a physical component to it. it really does start when you commit to doing it, let's say in that like maybe two to three months in advance. And then you you you start to eat kind of more cleanly and things get a little more stringent as you get closer to it. And you want to just set yourself up so that you'll have the easiest experience and let the medicine kind of be the most effective. But then I really had like this focus on I wanted to relieve myself of this anger, and then you know, just be open to whatever help the medicine could give me. And I started to research, you know, the the sort of cultural history behind like the Shipebo tribe from the Amazon and and just watched a lot of videos and YouTube and things that normal people would do, just whatever information I could get. And and then just kind of focusing on this and and just trying to keep my my mind sort of kind of pure and just and just and be more open. And so, you know, and that did me, you know, very, very well. because in this experience, it was, it's very, very strong and it's very physical. And so people that will look at this, they, they will, you do purge and which is you're kind of just like throwing up. And you may like be in the bathroom. So, like kind of wherever stuff can come out, it may come out. But I had this normal traditional purging and it it didn't last for very long. It was significant and it's not unlike what you would normally feel like if you were kind of ill, but it's not being ill. you're actually like purging just bad, heavy, toxic stuff. And Keenan: Right. Mm-hmm. David Mersky: and because I'll tell you that afterwards, the lightness that I felt. It is it was just i indescribable. Like I felt like I was looking down, like I wouldn't I wasn't even on the ground, it felt like anymore. That's how that's how amazing it felt. But in the process, so I had this purge, and then I started to see, and this is kind of like in your mind's eye, kind of like visionary things, if you will. And I came I came face to face, like literally like within inches of the people that were like the head of the case against me. And I could literally feel as I'm looking at them, I could feel what they were going through in their lives. I could feel their pain. Keenan: Mm. David Mersky: I could feel their suffering. And rather than focus on the hatred that I had for these people and that I wanted them to die, I wanted them to burn on fire, I felt compassion for them. And I was saying to myself, it's okay. I you can do what you need to do to me. And I understand because of the pain you have suffered. why you were able to or what caused you to inflict pain on other people, on me. But I'm not angry anymore about this because Keenan: Mm. David Mersky: I'm okay, I'm strong, I have come through this. And and I feel compassion for your pain. And so it was such a wonderful feeling because it this weight, I finally realized the weight of this anger and that, you know, people that are wronged by people, you talk about forgiveness And I like to say now that that forgiveness is a gift that you give to yourself. You know, rather than forgive Keenan: Mm, absolutely. David Mersky: the the transgressor, you have to realize that, you know, that because karma, the world, whatever, that they will be taken care of. This is not about like in terms of vengeance either. It's just whatever their problems are, that that's not your concern. But the feeling and the lightness of forgiveness and that it's okay what you did to me. Because I'll be fine and I'm just gonna focus on me and my own happiness. The weight of setting that burden down was such a gift to myself Keenan: Hmm. Yeah. David Mersky: that I like, and you and I you realize you see things when you're in this psychedelic process in such a simplistic and clear way. Why couldn't I have seen this before? Why did I carry this anger for years? Because in two seconds, and it took, you know, the help of the medicine, and I I credit. The medicine on the one hand, but then I always tell people when you when you come through this kind of experience, credit yourself because you're Keenan: Mm, yeah. David Mersky: the one who's made the choice. You're doing the work and and and you deserve all the credit for bettering your own life. And no one else could do it for you. And Keenan: Mm. Yeah. David Mersky: so I was I was so heartened and so lightened by this. And You know, you're supposed to sleep after like sort of in the wee hours. It's about a five to six, seven hour process to give people a context. and some people do it for multiple days in a row, although I did not at this time. And so the next morning, and we this is in the desert. I mean, it's such a special place. Like I'm talking like off the grid, GPS coordinate, nothing around you. You can hear You know, like in the middle of this, I was hearing the the animals out. Like you're hearing like the the coyotes and and you're breathing with the animals. You become one with the earth. You realize that the earth itself is also a living entity. And that, Keenan: Hm. Yeah. David Mersky: you know, on a little side note, we need to be better stewards of the planet, that it's a gift that we're here, and Keenan: For sure. Mm-hmm. David Mersky: we need to take care of this amazing place that has been so perfectly set up for us. Like if the sun and the moon weren't exactly where they were placed and gravity wasn't exactly like it is, and and everything it that makes earth so habitable for us that it Keenan: Right. David Mersky: it was perfectly divine for us. And I think there's something holy in that, whether you come from a religious perspective or just kind of a spiritual one, doesn't really matter. There's something just so magical to appreciate in the world, in the earth, that we get up to breathe every day. And so that's another Keenan: Mm. David Mersky: general thing, sort of I've taken from my psychedelic practices that have evolved over the years. But this was my first one. And and I came out of that again, like looking at the ground, saying, like, I'm floating on air, like this is the best gift I could have ever been given. And I was so Keenan: Right. David Mersky: grateful for this perspective. And I've carried that with me, you know, for almost 10 years now. Yeah. Yeah. Keenan: Right. Wow. I'm so I'm wondering it's almost like you mentioned where the earth is and the moon. It's like we're here on purpose, with a purpose. And and I think it sounds like what you went through was not by ac an accident. David Mersky: I I believe everything, and this is my belief system now. so I'm I'm clearly not stating facts, that I believe that I believe we have free will, but I believe Keenan: Mm-hmm. David Mersky: that we come into this world with like a a roadmap that things that we intend for ourselves to experience, and and then we have a choice about how to encounter them, when we're going to encounter them to some extent. And then most importantly, how to react to them, how we learn from them, and then how we go on. And a lot of these things that we set up for ourselves in our normal kind of human brains are very bad, horrible, sometimes horrible things. things that are so challenging and so difficult. And you would ask yourself, well, why would I do that? But I think the point is that Earth is a school. This doesn't come from me. Like Okay, a lot of people talk about this that are in the space. Earth is a a school of hard knocks. It's a place to learn. And learning Keenan: Absolutely. David Mersky: is difficult. You don't learn from easy things. You learn from things that are very, very hard sometimes and that are very trying. And and this was certainly one, you know, for me. I won't compare it to atrocities that other people go through. And and I don't think there's any point in comparisons either, because there's no th that doesn't get anybody anywhere. I think we come in with our own path to walk Keenan: For sure. David Mersky: and we're gonna encounter our own difficulties and we need to really be focused on that for ourselves. And you know, because it's very easy to look at the other person and look what they have and look how easy they have it. Believe me, they don't have it that easy. and you just can't see a lot of problems that people suffer with. but again, it's like just if if you're focused kind of on your own journey, then You know, you're the the point is you're not really getting anywhere. You can't you can make all the money in the world, you're not taking it with you. Right. Like I think a lot of this is an illusion, but it is very real in the experience. There's no doubt. Keenan: For sure. Yeah. David Mersky: so I don't like to say this is all fake. When I say it's an illusion, I do think we are in kind of the a matrix. But the matrix is very real and the experiences are absolutely real. I think there Keenan: For sure. David Mersky: is a reality that's beyond this. I have, and we can talk about this. I have seen what I believe is the reality beyond this, at least a glimpse of it, in in a way that, you know, I could experience or a human can experience it. And I think we're very limited, you know, as humans in terms of how much of that we can actually absorb and experience, because we're meant to have this human experience and live this lifetime and get all that we can out of it. And so it's a it's it is like a a journey. So we should sap up every second of it, even the hard moments, because it'll be over quickly. And I think when we pass from this earth, we're gonna wake up as we do from a dream every day, and we'll look back on it and say, Whoa, that was an interesting one. And probably Keenan: For sure. David Mersky: come come back in. And we've done this many, many times and may do it many more times over again, sometimes with some of the people and Again, I'm borrowing from this is my belief system. And but I have seen a number of things and had encounters where I certainly I have a knowing, let me say that, beyond a belief that we that we we never die truly, that we exist in perpetuity. We have always been here, and that once we leave this body, you still have this sense of yourself and that you go on and that you'll have other experiences. And so I have this comfort. That there's no death. And so I'm not really that concerned about leaving this body. I want to extend this life and preserve my life and fulfill it the best I can, for sure. But Keenan: For sure. Yeah. David Mersky: I don't have this fear that I'm gonna be, you know, dust to dust and I'm gone. And I know that runs counter to some some religious belief, but most I think religions actually believe in an afterlife in some kind of e wa i in a heaven. I don't believe there's a hell, by the way. That's another thing. but Keenan: Mm-hmm. David Mersky: but so I have that comfort. And so that's another general thing that I would say psychedelics has has given to me in in all these experiences too. Keenan: For sure. So you you mentioned possibly an encounter with another reality, or outside David Mersky: yeah. Keenan: of this one. What was that was that in the desert or what and what was that like? And how did you know? David Mersky: No, no, I've had I've had several of them and this spans sort of over the years and definitely involves other substances too. So psilocybin mushrooms, the magic mushrooms, are Keenan: Mm-hmm. David Mersky: really as powerful a psychedelic experience as one could have. I've done also DMT, dimethyltryptamine, which is the active ingredient in ayahuasca. But ayahuasca has others that are also make it sort of the medicine that it is. So DMT alone is a completely different experience. But but in one experience where I smoked DMT, which is a very powerful, very fast experience. So unlike ayahuasca, which is multiple hours, you're talking multiple minutes. and I was shot through a felt like a portal into a place. And Other people have said that I agree with that like DMT is a kind of a gateway. You are not intoxicated. you actually travel. And it allows you to separate from the body and travel. So rather than like an experience, I say, and others have said too, that it is a place that you go to. And you can have various experiences under the influence of DMT. and one of these, my first time, I went to what I would just term as heaven. Because as soon as I was there, I felt a love, an unbounded love that Keenan: Mm. David Mersky: you cannot put into words. And I felt like this is the source of creation. And more than that, and and bear in mind that I'm talking to myself, right, at this time, just like you would have an internal conversation. And as you would normally do that, I felt it completely intact, the same as you would having an internal dialogue with yourself, just if you closed your eyes and just started talking to yourself. So, you know, like, where am I? What is this? What's going on here? But through that and having this love experience and this peace, I also asked myself, why is it that I know this place? And Keenan: Hmm. Yeah. David Mersky: And how is it that I know this place? And I'm sh surprised that I know it because I am very familiar with it. And then I'm saying to myself, I don't know why I would be familiar. How can this be? But in a way that, like, I've never been here before, but I know I come from here. And I know that Keenan: Right. David Mersky: I'll come back to here. And it was such a comforting thing to feel. And then I started to, I sensed that there was. Some beings around me, but none that I could visualize. And as I said to myself, like I was so excited, I said, I need to tell people about this. And then one of these voices came to me and said, Again, this is like telepathically, because you're not having like an external conversation. It said to me, This is not for you to tell anybody. This is just for you to experience right now. yourself kind of like just sit back and experience this and this is for you and and I felt like I was just like a newborn baby would feel like if you could envision just like in the arms of like the a mother and it Keenan: Yeah. David Mersky: was just like so safe and and I remember thinking I do not want to go back to that earth place like I want to stay right here and Keenan: Right. Right. David Mersky: And of course, you know, you you you sort of have to go back. And a lot of this experience, like it's it it it's kind of like a flash. So, like what I'm describing to you are these concrete feelings, but it's also somewhat dreamlike, where you know, it's it's moving and it's flashing and it's, you know, I'm having a conversation, but it's not really, and it happens like in an instant. And and as I came back, I had no idea how long it was. Like I thought it could have been a like Quite a long time, actually. And I I remember asking the people that were overseeing me, how long was this? And they said, it's about six minutes. So, you know, like because like you also realize there's no time that that time itself is a I think emerges from the the the 3D environment that we exist in, that it's a necessary component of our experience. But I do believe that it's just limited to kind of the earth that we're in, because we wouldn't really have a way to navigate without it. And they're for very good reasons. I mean, you know, like how do you learn patience? How do you learn to overcome things that are hard? How do you learn perseverance? Keenan: Yeah. David Mersky: And, you know, how do you gain wisdom? You have to go through things. And those things often Keenan: Right. David Mersky: take a lot of time. And there's no way to get around that. But in the overall Keenan: Right. David Mersky: scheme of things, like, you know, this life could be. It's a blink. And, you know, I I think so I think in that sense it's like a big video game where, you know, kind of the properties of the game exist within the game. And and so, you know, so I've I've learned that too. And there's cutting edge science now that is starting to unveil the realities un underlying time and space. You're seeing Nobel Prizes in quantum entanglement and local Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. David Mersky: realism and And there's you know scientists that are talking about how time and space start to break down when you get to the Planck length, and and you can't really probe but a certain time, and then you these black holes blow up. I I I am nowhere capable of understanding the physics and the math behind all this, but but they are, and they there's no ex explanation for it other than it seems like it's a simulation. Keenan: Right. Yeah. David Mersky: And again, though, I want to say I don't want to take anything away from the simulation because it I think it's the greatest teacher that there is. And Keenan: For sure. David Mersky: but but the one thing that I will say is the one thing that I say that is absolutely real in the illusion is love. And that the only Keenan: Hm. Yes. David Mersky: thing that matters in all of this, the only thing that when you get to the end of your days, no matter what you did, no matter what you accomplished, no matter how successful you are, the love that you have, the love that you share, the love that you leave behind is real. Will always be, will transcend any dimension, whatever the other next step is. I believe that that is the only thing that actually survives. And so that's the point of this world is go through all the trials and tribulation, have as much love as you can, leave as much love behind as you can, and that's the only point of any of it. Doesn't matter what your career or your job is, doesn't matter how much you make, none of it is relevant. Are you filled with love that it will be the Keenan: Yes. David Mersky: only thing that matters to you when you're on your deathbed? That's it. Keenan: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, so it seems like we make this world so complicated sometimes, but it really isn't. It's you know, love yourself and love everyone and and leave something behind. I'm I'm curious what you would say to the the pessimist that goes, Well, none of this really matters. Sure I can love, I can love whatever, but like the next world sounds so great. Why can't I just go there really quickly? Or not go there really quickly, but at least like why invest in this world because the next one sounds so great? Whatever you call it, heaven, new reality. What do you say to them? David Mersky: Right. here's what I would say. And then like, you know, and and I'm I'm I'm not a mental health expert, okay, so let me be clear on that. But like w when you asked that question, the first thing I thought about was suicide. And I've like had people in my not immediate family and but I've known people, I've known friends, children, like so where like there seems to people like there's I need to I need to get out of this experience because it's just so so horrible. and then, you know, just more generally Why would I want to go through this pain? And I and I believe that again, we set up these experiences for ourselves. And I think we've done this and are doing it over the course of many, many lifetimes. And so, you know, the the thing about an endless experience of timeless love is that there's no change. And so in Keenan: Hm. Yeah. David Mersky: in a state without change, there is no learning, there is no advancement. And so I like to say that despite all of the difficulties that most of us encounter in one form or another in life, I say it is a vacation for our souls. That that the soul is so happy to take advantage of this situation because this is an opportunity to really experience, to have all of these problems. Because in from that perspective, these problems are just part of this little experience. We get over them and we come back to unbounded, timeless love again, right? So it doesn't really matter what we go through here, but it is very important. And if it weren't, we wouldn't be doing it. Right? So it has a so as as temporary as it is, and in that sense, as meaningless as it is, there can be nothing more meaningful. because we've set this up and we must cherish the gift that we have to be able to come into this body. And and have all of these wonderful experiences and some of them hard. Because you know, you realize once you overcome difficulties, you have this sense of accomplishment, and then you have this sense of love, and you get to play Keenan: Yeah. David Mersky: around in this body, and you get to eat wonderful foods, and you get to travel places, you get to walk and feel the sun on your face, you get to encounter nature and see marvelous works of nature in the oceans, in the mountains, and And you get to experience people of all different kinds, and you get to pass on love to them, and you get to help people. And you know, and Keenan: Yes. David Mersky: if you get to spread this happiness, the joy that you feel helping someone else is incomparable to any material benefit that that you could ever have in this life. and material things, though, are also great in in their own, you know, way. And I love material things, and this is a material world. And I think we should, you know, you have to play by the rules of the game that are here. And so I'm as I'm here, I'm a capitalist. And, you know, I want to do well for myself. I want to do well for my family. I also want to help people though, and I want to have compassion. And so you have to temper your own, you know, sort of accomplishment with like, what are the real meaningful things? Well, it's can I help other people? Can I make the world a better place than when I came into it? Will I leave it better off? That that's very important. Not how much can I get here, right? But I believe that, you know, in this materiality, you know, you get more things that enables you to give more things. And so I think Keenan: Sure. David Mersky: you have to appreciate every little moment. you know, like I love my dogs and I get to spend time with them, and there's nothing like the love of a pet. And so, like, you know, y the bite of an apple, and you know. And and physical love and attraction and all of those things, right? So these are all like these wonderful human experiences that you don't get as a soul being. And I think so we we need to really cherish them. and most importantly, and this is what I've learned is try to more and more cherish them in the moment. Like actively Keenan: Mm. David Mersky: step out of yourself and say, Hey, this is wonderful. I'm having this great time. And here's the harder thing. When you're stuck in line or you're in traffic, and and I I fall victim to this too very frequently, right? is like take like the crappy moments and be like, thank you, you know, because I I I can I can take there's something good about these crappy moments too. And even if you realize that, you know, as I'm sitting here stuck in, you know, the DMV, I have legs, I can walk today. And Keenan: True. David Mersky: How appreciative would I be? What would I give up to be stuck in this horrible traffic jam if I didn't have legs today? And Keenan: Right. David Mersky: then you would say, I would give up the whole world. I would be the happiest person in the world stuck in this line. And so, you know, it it just if you can be a little more active in just being more appreciative, right? And then, but understand that, like, you know, as much as and but this is like a bigger message, I think, to especially people that are curious about psychedelics or or getting into Something like ayahuasca. Even the people that are very learned and and and have a lot of wisdom and have been in the medicine space for years, realize this. They're no better than you either. Okay. They might have this wisdom and this training, but they're still human. They still have limitations. They're still going to make mistakes. You might be able to learn a heck of a lot from them, but do not put anybody, especially these people, on like a higher plateau. Keenan: For sure. Mm-hmm. David Mersky: they're not any better than anyone else. And anyone who tries to impart that to you, be very suspect of that. And I think the really good ones will say, I'm very fallible, right? And and I think realizing your own fallibility. So I fall back into habits and like that that that I try hard to overcome as well. What I have now is a bit of a toolbox that I've developed through my experiences in plant medicines and psychedelics. Where I'm able to have a little better ability to say, wait a minute, you're doing that thing again. You're having that kind of reaction that you've tried to stop. And so now, number one, recognize it and then pull out that tool and make a change. And if you can do it sort of less and less, make yourself a little bit, you know, better, then that's all you're here to do. So don't beat yourself up about being human because that's what we're here for. We're gonna screw up, we're gonna get angry, and that's okay, right? So if we're constantly trying to make ourselves a little better than you're doing it right. Keenan: Mm-hmm. For sure. For sure. So I mean, you know, sometimes people hear psychedelics and they think of like some hippie guy with like long beard and David Mersky: Totally. Keenan: it's something so taboo. It's something so so unlike just on my people look into it. And you're clearly not a hippie. At least you don't look like you don't look like one. What do you say to those people who are like hearing this and all that? David Mersky: Correct. Correct. Correct. Well, so I I I think that one of my purposes, my purpose now in life is I'm a messenger. I'm a I'm I am a a way shower. There's nothing special about me. And so when I say a way shower, I'm not saying there's anything special about me, is that I'm a little bit, I'm a bridge, and I can talk to people of many different walks of life because I don't have this hippie, you know, vibe. I can talk to, you know, people need to realize that psychedelics now are they've been suppressed since the Controlled Substances Act in the sixties. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. David Mersky: and I think very much because the government realized that as people were doing acid and you know the hippies sort of that movement, the one thing they realized is we don't want to fight these wars. Like, you know, that's not what this existence is about. And the government did not want, you know, anyone to real to take that view. And moreover. The government has been very deeply involved in psychedelics. The CIA has been steeped in psychedelics for many decades. They are not telling us hardly anything about the information that they know. And you're seeing testimony before Congress now, where you have military people and all kinds of people swearing under oath before Congress that we have been in contact with extraterrestrials and they are very much a part of this higher consciousness. That I think psychedelics is a gateway to expanding ourselves beyond our physical bodies and limitations. And, you know, so the the the alien phenomenon is something that is very real, is nothing to be afraid of. Keenan: Sure. Yeah. David Mersky: And I think we are going to be, in the very near future, very much exposed to that and realizing that we are not alone here. We have never been alone. I think we're gonna start to understand the origins of our true human story. I believe some of that absolutely has something to do with traditional religion, but that is only a part of the story. Because, you know, and so Keenan: Mm-hmm, for sure. David Mersky: and so I've seen this, and I and my mission is to bring as many people who are called, which is not everybody by any means, and to Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. David Mersky: let people know that there is a way here and that I have seen this way. And if you are interested, you there you need to walk your own path. But here, here is sort of the light. There is no specific way to observe this. So this is not a religious practice. And there's nothing that stands between you and that deeper understanding. And so this is the message that I'm conveying to people. And because You don't read me as being a hippie or anything else in particular. Like I'm a big firearm guy, the sport of guns. And that I Keenan: For sure. David Mersky: know that can throw people in a direction. But I can talk about guns and I can talk about ayahuasca, right? I can talk about how the shooting sports have been very meditative for me, actually, right? So you want to talk about that? Now, for instance, who who would be more open to that conversation? Veterans, Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. David Mersky: first responders, law enforcement. People that are suffering from overwhelmingly depression, PTSD. And so you're seeing Keenan: For sure. Yeah. David Mersky: like psychedelics now in particular. Well, mushrooms are psilocybin veterans are having unbelievable success. People with addiction are having unprecedented success with ibogaine, which is an African Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yep. David Mersky: psychedelic from an African plant. And that's not yet legal in the United States, but many, many states, you're talking about Texas, conservative states. Arizona, which is also a very conservative state, has already approved MDMA, ecstasy, Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. David Mersky: when when the federal government approves it. Arizona's already said, we're tricked, we're already on board. As soon as it's legal, we're we're gonna do it. Why? Because they're motivated by the help that it's given to veterans. That's principally been the reason. So the the the negative for me behind that is it's ignoring like the majority of people who are Healthy generally, but who could really benefit from this expansiveness, who are not going to have the access to it at least immediately. But the good part is that people with treatment-resistant depression probably will be the first up, like with MDMA and ibogaine and so forth. Okay, so you know, let's help those people. That's a great thing. you know, I just you know, the feeling I have is like these mushrooms grow freely. I think mushrooms may be the f a form of alien intelligence themselves. Like they sprout up, you're able to consume them, it opens your consciousness, and you start to realize your life will be changed. I mean, if people most of the people just consumed mushrooms, the world would change overnight. Overnight. And you know, I'm not suggesting that everybody run out there and do that, right? Or that it's Keenan: Right. David Mersky: Safe in all situations, okay. but generally speaking, you know, the more access people have, and I think the world is realizing this now, and there's no turning back because the help that they're giving to people of these suffering is so great, is so immense, and it's so safe, right? that, like in terms of toxicity, that and we make DMT in our bodies. This is an endogenous compound. Why are we making it? It comes in the pineal gland. It's it's there there's studies going on right now, clinical trials, where they're keeping people under massive doses of DMT for like five hours, right? I'm talking to you about smoking it for five minutes, and people are taking IV that is controlled by a drip for hours, and they're trying to map this place and figure out what it is. And people are encountering all kinds of entities there. And like you know, on on under when I had a mushroom journey where I saw the ancient Egyptian god Thoth. And like, you know, Keenan: Mm-hmm. David Mersky: Thoth is like this god of wisdom and knowledge and teaching. And I saw Thoth in this modern day laboratory, but like this ancient like half man with the bird head and the like Keenan: Wow. David Mersky: and the Egyptian, you know, cloak, the ibis, and you know, makes a turn and I see this is like a bird man. And he's doing experiments and he's taking notes and he's got like beakers and potions, and he's he's doing what you would a scientist would do in a modern day lab, and but he's this ancient figure, and so the juxtaposition of that was just like just was blowing my mind. And I didn't really know that's who I was looking at until I had a conversation after this journey. And a friend of mine who's very educated in in ancient mythology and Egypt in particular said, You just encountered Thoth. So I think that these things have a timelessness about them and that Keenan: Mm-hmm. David Mersky: more and more we are coming into an age where people are going to experience psychedelics in a very large and profound way, in mass. And and I think I'm just part of like a messenger to bring people to this this space because it's time. you know, if I was trying to bring this message out 50 years ago. It would have fallen on deaf ears. So I think it's no coincidence that I was sort of turned on, if you will, at the same time as laws are now changing. Like you can take legal psilocybin journeys in Oregon now, in Colorado now, and there's legislation in other states that are being passed. And they've done thousands of journeys now in Oregon over the last few years with unbelievable success. So it is going to make its way piece by piece, you know, across the country. This medicine here at this time. But like they'll all sort of become available over the next coming years in various ways. And you see companies now, like there have been massive acquisitions that have been done, acquiring psychedelic compounds that are trying to treat the issues that people have, but without sort of the psychedelic experience. So I feel multiple ways about that, but a lot of it is positive. But so it is the the message to answer your general question in a very long way was. Like the the psych psychedelics are are emerging in a way that are just like they're not turning back at this point. And it's way beyond sort of the hippie experience. but I don't want to overstate the impact that a traditional journey could have on somebody and to tell you that if you're interested, these experiences are available to most people pretty much in your own neighborhood now. at really very little cost, or you don't have to go away to a high level Costa Rican experience and spend ten grand. You could spend like like under a thousand dollars, hundreds of dollars sometimes, or you know, thereabouts over a day to a couple of days and have a life changing experience. So you don't have to break the bank now to change your life. But by the way, that first experience ten years ago when it was not even close to where it is today, That one night that changed my life cost me a hundred and sixty dollars. So, okay, Keenan: Wow. There you go. David Mersky: you know, it doesn't have to be expensive. Yeah. Keenan: Yeah. So you're saying there is some sort of tie between taking psychedelics and extraterrestrial? David Mersky: no question. No question. And yeah, Keenan: Aliens, no question. Okay. David Mersky: and I I I I I don't I I make no claim on exactly what that relationship is or what the extent of it is, other than to say that they are it it indelibly like printed on the experience, and are very common to people. I've had procedures done on me, like we're working on your body here. I don't know what the answer is. And I I don't know I don't know if I I could speculate, right? I don't want to go, I don't want to overwhelm sort of the point I'm making with my beliefs, other than to say that there's no question they're involved somehow. And that when you take psychedelics, it does open your ability to communicate with them and other entities on, you know, another level. And it just puts you in a state of consciousness that, you know, people can achieve, by the way, through meditation and other practices. You don't need to take psychedelics, but it it is sort of a quick way to get there. And our bodies are set up and our brains are set up to process them in a way that it opens up these lines of communication because people just experience them in a very common and very safe way. No one comes back and says we need to be afraid of these things, right? So that's another thing I want to be, you know, very clear about. But it's gonna come to wide, you know, public knowledge that like the United States and and many other countries, have we are in communication with them. We have been in communication with them. We have crafts, we have pe like beings. Keenan: for sure. David Mersky: I mean, there's just no doubt about this. I mean, they're basically telling you this now in Congress. This is not like conspiracy theory stuff anymore. And like You'll see, like in these questions, they're they're they're asking you, and and some of these military people or witnesses will say, I'm not able to answer that question in open session. So like these are things that you need to go into a skiff or or in in c classified you know disclosures, but you know, so they're not giving us all the information yet, but they're telling you essentially that it that this is the case. So that that that Keenan: Right. Yeah, for sure. David Mersky: relationship between that their existence and psychedelics. hasn't been clearly made at all yet. but I'm telling you experientially that there is absolutely a connection and it will become clearer to us over, you know, time. And I'm as curious about it as other people may be. But if you're a fan of like sort of the alien phenomenon, you may be interested in the psychedelic experience too. Yeah. Keenan: Yeah. No, I had I had somebody on the podcast, like my first couple episodes, who treats people who were abducted by aliens and she said had a lot of really good stuff to say about just the phenomenon that's been happening. That was a couple of months ago. And there's been some new information coming out about David Mersky: Yeah. Sure. Keenan: that. So it's really fascinating what is coming out about that. David Mersky: It is. I mean it is. I mean, and there there's so many stories and you know, you're I mean, like all the sightings happen and and here's one little story. I was on on a rooftop pool in a building here in Scottsdale, like just miles from my house, and you know, a nice beautiful night, and I was having a UFO conversation. I talk about this stuff a lot, and as soon as I said UFO, not within three seconds. An orb appears. I had never seen that before. And the whole Keenan: That's cool. David Mersky: group of people, because I was the one facing that direction, and literally, and I have video, I've posted videos on my channel about this. And other people took the same video, and we're all sitting there, and I'm saying, like, what the F is this? And because like we're all saying, like, what is that? We've never seen it. Is that a drone? And it's one of those typical, like, floating light orbs that you would see. And it was cool to see it in person because. The cameras don't they can't capture it. And people always say, How come the pictures are always crappy? I don't know technically why. And I think probably the military might have some really good stuff. But I think part of the reason is that there's something going on there in the technology that doesn't allow the camera to see it clearly because I think they're moving in a way that distorts time and space. And so, you know, Keenan: Right. Mm-hmm. David Mersky: this just floated by us. And continued on and continued to float until it was, you know, we were watching it for minutes until we couldn't see it anymore. And it didn't do anything, it made no sound. but you know, so it just the fact that it appeared within literally a couple of seconds after I said UFO, I don't know what caused that either. I have never seen one since. I've never seen an alien since. I've only sort of encountered these beings in psychedelics. and not all the time, of course, you know, e either, but I I don't know the the the answer. but I do have a lot of those the questions about why. Yeah. Keenan: For sure, for sure. So like, you know, as we're wrapping up, you know, what is your what do you think? Like if you had everyone's attention in the world for one minute, what do you think they need to hear? David Mersky: Would build on a little bit of what I was saying before, and maybe draw it back into I want to say the word God and that for some people, if it has a religious context, great. If it if if it just has sort of this like universal power, great, also. that I I believe that we are all created, we are all part of this magnificent source. If you in the religious context, we're created in the image of God, like all you have to do, the kingdom of heaven is within you. or in terms of more of a general spiritual sense, that we are all connected to this one creator source. So either way it works, right? Which is that I want people to realize that you you are God in your own Keenan: Mm. David Mersky: little point of light, how important you are. That you are the most important thing that could ever have been imagined, and that this entire universe and all the planets and all the stars and all of it would not be the same without you. That's how important you are to this existence. So Keenan: Absolutely. Yeah. David Mersky: please, whatever you do in your lowest moments, in your hardest moments, please cling to that and know that. That's the most important thing that I could say. Yeah. Keenan: Absolutely. I love that for sure. Definitely peop you matter. And I I love that. So David Mersky: You matter. Yes. Keenan: if someone is like we talk a lot about like faith, mental health here. Like if someone's thinking about counseling or therapy or even ayahuasca, David Mersky: Yeah. Keenan: like and they're kind of on the fence about it, like what do you think they need to hear to get off the fence? David Mersky: so the one thing is if you're if you're if you feel like hey, I'm kind of curious, I'm kind of into this, but I have this fear in me a little bit, that's perfectly normal. And that fear sort of never goes away. Whenever I go into a psychedelic journey, I also have this fear. I also have this anxiety, and I'm not an anxious person. I think it would not be normal if you didn't have this anxiety because. This is part of the human experience too, that we are so wrapped up in this heaviness of our bodies that we think Keenan: Sure. David Mersky: that this is all that we are, and that anything that challenges that is going to be unnerving. And so Keenan: Mm-hmm. David Mersky: if you have the fear, don't that's not going to go away. Don't let that dissuade you. So then the question is: you know, what is a safe experience for me and what's going to help me? And the answer to that is there are many. you and again, you don't have to go away, you don't have to leave the country. If you do some research in your own area, you don't have to travel far. You can go online and review it like you would review other things. you know, just as Keenan: Sure. Absolutely. David Mersky: you would like another kind of experience, you will, I think, quickly figure out this is a good person. A lot of people have had a good experience here. So that while I totally understand that. And a lot of people would only want to do a psychedelic that was number one legal, right? A lot of people, and I get that, and they want to so I want it to be overseen by like a doctor. So like the only thing you can really do now, well, first of all, you could travel to Oregon, but now you might that might be more expensive or Colorado. so if you feel like you want something that's only legal, well, you can do it in the US. And so like those experiences there for you. but But I would also feel very safe if someone had a real history of serving the medicine, whatever that medicine is, over a period of time and they're getting really good reviews and they're getting really good recommendations. it's not so much in the underground anymore. And that's how I did it, you know, years ago. And so I would point you to to that, like kind of let your own confidence in your own research kind of get you there. And you you could you could change your life for actually very little money. Like if you wanted to see a doctor, you could do, you know, again, you're it's kind of very limited, but there are a couple of things that that you could do. one experience is escaping me right now if I remember I'll I'll bring that up but in the next minute or so. But You know, there are couple things you can do with medical supervision that are licensed, but I wouldn't be limited to that, is what I'm saying. and some of the best Keenan: Yeah, for sure. David Mersky: experiences are not going to be given by like a medical doctor who's not trained in the very spiritual side of how a a lot of these medicines are served, right? so Keenan: Right. Yeah. David Mersky: you know, so that that that's the the one thing, you know, don't let the fear kind of get in the way of that. it's normal. Keenan: Yeah. The fear, you know, of all that definitely is normal. Nervousness. Ketamine, I think ketamine's covered is something Is that what you were trying to think of? Okay. David Mersky: Sure. Ketamine. Ketamine. Yeah, so you can take ketamine. Yeah. Ket and so ketamine's not a a psychedelic. You know, people have heard of it because it's an anesthetic. I have done ketamine a couple of times. It is, and I've done it in conjunction with MDMA. Like I've done a combination, ecstasy, MDMA, but in the purest form, not like the old-time ecstasy. So MDMA and ketamine, I I actually like MDMA as a starter. I've done MDMA with mushrooms because it it calms you, gives you this love, and it can be you you can take a very have a very deep spiritual journey with MDMA. That's not like the party scene, the party drug. but MDMA is also not a it's not a psychedelic either. but there are crossover experiences that both of those substances do offer people, although you know their their chemical makeup is is not strictly at all in the in the psychedelic space. They work on different receptors, they have different mechanisms of action. Okay, but but the experiences themselves can be for those are very meaningful also. And so you can their doctors can prescribe ketamine, where you know the other substances are still schedule one and they can't be prescribed. So, you know, you can have a doctor, you can get ketamine in the mail right now. but but don't expect to have like the journey experience. without like a practitioner necessarily. so again, there's pluses and minuses there, but there are like spiritual people that are doctors that are licensed and that do serve it. And I bet you can I know I can, they're here in Arizona. I'm sure they're where you are too, wherever you are, look for like a doctor who serves it and they can do it legally. And so you would feel safe doing that. And you know, that that might be comfortable for, you know, a group of people too as they get into it. Keenan: For sure. So any good like books, podcasts, blogs people can look up. They can do more research on what we've talked about. David Mersky: You know, yeah, I I would start with like an old video called the spirit molecule, the God particle. That will get you into like what is ayahuasca, what is sort of DMT? I love who's the guy that does the all of the the the videos on a lot of the psychedelic compounds, the it's called like the what's his name? He calls there's like a big show on it. I think it's on Vice. you can find it. I gotta look up his name. I turned my phone off, so his name's escaping me right now. But you can look there for people like there's a big experiment going on now with DMT, the laser experiment by a guy named Dan Gowler, where people are smoking DMT, shining a laser on a wall, and then they're looking at the wall and they're seeing. Matrix code floating in the wall. And this experiment has been repeated thousands of times now at this point. He's also hosting like a kind of a high-end retreat, but that's something that's really cool. and so there's those are kind of places to kind of get you into what is this ayahuasca, you know, sort of in particular. But I mean, there's some there's a whole world that's just out there at your fingertips if you want to just start. researching that. But you know, one book that has been fundamental to me, that's an old book, by the way, is Be Here Now by Ramdas, who Keenan: Okay. David Mersky: you know, started back in the 60s with with the the couple of those professors at Harvard and then went away with like the Merry Pranksters and you know the the the electric Kool-Aid acid test and and those guys but Be Here Now It's a very fast read. So it's you can read it really quickly. And it it it it's become foundational in my belief in terms of how I approach life. And so you know, it's a a a a New York, you know, Harvard professor who then, you know, essentially took on Buddhism for many, many years and then wrote this book that is as relevant today as it was back in the 70s when he wrote it. And he just died like a few short years ago. That book Keenan: Mm. David Mersky: is you can pick that up like on Amazon, get it. It's like it's good for everybody. Keenan: sure. how can people find you and and what you do and David Mersky: Yeah, so I'm setting up experiences too. people can call me for more of like the higher end, smaller, very small groups. If you have a small group, or if like you're like a few people, I would say is kind of my sweet spot where I and I don't conduct these myself. I I will set them up with some select people who are very learned, whether that's ayahuasca, whether that's MDMA. or ketamine or psilocybin. I can be a good resource. I'm happy to talk to people, if not to, you know, set you up on your own personal experience. And then I am not a social media person, but I created a channel. I've got, you know, 4,000 X, you know, followers. It's not a big channel right now, but I talk about these experiences from my perspective, what they're like and what they've taught me. And it's called the Meru Sky. We didn't get into the the naming of that channel, but it it's interesting. It comes out of someone else's psychedelic journey, M-E-R-U, the Mehru Sky. And so most of my content is like my following is TikTok. but my longer form content, and a lot of that is not as is on YouTube under the same name, just because YouTube's a better platform for the long form. so you like you can hear podcasts, other things like I've done. So either one, but like the shorter, like kind of smaller videos, that's that's that's where you can find me and DM me reach out. I love to talk to people. People, you know, reach out. I communicate with people all the time. I answer everybody. And so I'm trying to connect as many people, answer questions and get anyone who's interested, you know, into the space. Keenan: Cool. Well, David, thank you so much for coming on, sharing your story. And it was a good time. So thank you so much. Amen. David Mersky: It was my pleasure. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you so much.