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Courageous Conversations: Navigating Divide and Discrimination with Brenda Harrington · Speak In Flow

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  Melinda Lee: Today, my guest is Brenda Harrington. She's a
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  founder of leadership adaptive strategies, LLC. She's an
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  executive coach to global leaders in nonprofit profit, and
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  inter governmental organisations. She helps leaders
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  refine their leadership competencies, so that they can
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  make a bigger impact. She's also the author of Access Denied,
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  addressing workplace disparities and discrimination. Our topic
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  and conversation today is huge. It's important, because it
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  addresses all people. And the productivity that we have are
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  not based on our own subconscious, conscious biases.
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  Many of us are not aware of what we're doing and our unconscious
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  behaviours. And so through her book, she educates us, she helps
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  us to understand the discussions that we need to have. And even
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  though it's difficult to have, what we can do when we see
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  disparity or discrimination. So whether you are a leader from
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  the top all the way to the bottom, I hope you learned just
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  as much as I did in this conversation. Hello, Brenda,
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  welcome to the show.
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  Brenda Harrington: Thank you, Melinda, thank you for having
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  me, especially to be here.
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  Melinda Lee: Thank you so much, especially with your wealth of
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  knowledge of workplace discrimination and workplace
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  disparities. I'm so interested in fascinated in this topic. And
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  I wanted to get the sense, from your perspective, what does that
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  mean to you?
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  Brenda Harrington: Well, I appreciate that. So, you know, I
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  wrote a book a couple of years ago, Access Denied, which
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  addresses workplace disparities and discrimination. And that was
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  my response to what I considered to be a bit of a call to action,
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  following the things that we experienced here in the United
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  States, the spring of 2020. It's not that those events were so
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  new. But they were certainly alarming. But what what really
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  got my attention, even more so was the conversations that
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  emerged as a result of things that have been happening for a
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  very long time, certainly things that I've experienced over the
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  course of my career, and work with my clients, and both
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  individual and organisation, individual clients and
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  organisations, and the fact that it was just such such a surprise
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  to so many people. And so what I decided to do was put together a
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  compilation of stories, no fiction, it's all real life
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  experience, the lived experiences of people in the
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  workplace, who are impacted by some of these circumstances, but
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  more than tell the stories I wanted to create awareness for,
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  for people who, for whatever reason, you know, we're
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  unknowing, I'll say, and also provide tools, there are a lot
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  of coaching and reflection tips in the book, to help people who
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  are experiencing or who are being impacted by these
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  circumstances, to, to work through them and to consider
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  what their options are, and to consider their choices. So when
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  you asked me to define it, it really is you know, about just,
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  you know, not including everybody in the workplace, we
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  talked, we hear the term diversity, and inclusion so much
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  you can achieve what appears to be a level of diversity,
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  compliance by numbers. But that's very different than
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  really fostering an environment of inclusion, which means
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  everyone is participating at a high level. And, you know, the
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  reflection of equity across the board, when you look at, you
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  know, how people are engaged in the work at all levels of the
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  organisation. Right,
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  Melinda Lee: right. And what were your findings? It sounded
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  like you've you heard some stories and experiences that
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  were surprising. The discussions are, it's
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  Brenda Harrington: surprising to me, I've lived, I mean, so, you
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  know, my findings were that, you know, over the 40 plus years
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  that I've been in the workplace, there are a lot of things that
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  are still quite pervasive and that are still not being
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  addressed in a meaningful way. And when I say addressed, you
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  know, you know, it's interesting, I, all of this
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  comes from, in my opinion, you know, when you talk about
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  discrimination, when you talk about xenophobia, and all of the
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  things that divide us as individuals as people, it comes
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  kind of from a place of fear and certainly unknowing, right
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  people are more comfortable with, with people and
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  environments and things that are familiar to them. And so when
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  something is somewhat unfamiliar, they then move away
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  but no On top of that, or the the, the perceptions that people
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  have of people, you know, have a different gender have a
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  different race have a different ethnicity or nationality. And so
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  when we're not willing or able to break through those barriers
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  then results in marginalisation. And so, you know, I often say
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  you can change hearts and minds can change, but you can't change
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  them. This is a very individual experience. And so through the,
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  the awareness that I talked about, you know, my, my hope was
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  for people to, you know, really begin to think about things
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  differently. And I'm grateful that that is reflected in a lot
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  of the feedback that I'm getting, you know, that, you
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  know, when people read some of the stories, and they start to
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  reflect on experiences of their own in the workplace that says,
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  you know, I had no idea or, you know, I, I'm thinking back on
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  something that happened, and now I understand more, what might
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  have been at play? Yeah,
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  Melinda Lee: so then it's helpful for someone who is not
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  as aware, subconsciously, or even consciously to help them be
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  more aware by reading the examples, right, because we all
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  have them. And we were all running around with unconscious
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  biases, and questions, not even knowing it. And so educating
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  ourselves by reading something, like the reading your book, is,
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  Brenda Harrington: educating ourselves. But you know, there's
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  also, you know, in some cases, unfortunately, there is an
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  underlying belief that there are people who are more superior,
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  and there are people who are inferior, and, you know, ideally
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  breaking through those barriers, and that's, that's difficult.
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  Because, you know, those are, then you're getting to the core,
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  you know, the essence of individual values. So, you know,
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  but what organisations can do, certainly what organisational
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  leaders can do is to hold people accountable, for particular, you
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  know, standards of behaviour. And so, you know, if you are a
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  CEO, or you know, senior executive in an organisation,
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  you know, making sure that people are, are working to a
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  particular standard people who are in, you know, leading teams,
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  and then management roles, that people are getting the same
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  access, and people are getting the same level of visibility and
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  engagement, and that, that, you know, just paying attention to
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  make sure that people are not being marginalised. Yeah,
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  Melinda Lee: versus I think, because it's such a sensitive
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  topic, I would imagine some people don't even know what to
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  do don't even know how to address avoiding it. And then
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  that isn't a situation at all. No,
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  Brenda Harrington: you know, it makes it worse, it really does
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  have amplifies that. I'm glad you said that, because people
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  don't know what to do. And so, to that end, they do nothing.
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  Oh, is that, you know, certainly my, my book, and many others
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  will help people to figure out where to start what to do?
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  Melinda Lee: Yeah, what could you share some things of what
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  they can do when they see something happening like this?
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  Brenda Harrington: Well, you know, I hate to be cliche, you
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  know, we hear this with terrorism and everything else,
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  you see something, say something, but the reality is,
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  if you're questioning something, to be willing to address it,
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  right, to be willing to, to, to look further and scratch beneath
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  the surface. And, you know, that shows up in a lot of different
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  ways. So for example, you know, it's, it can be very awkward to
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  be the only person of colour, let's say, on a team, for
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  example. So if you notice, there's a team of, you know, six
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  or eight people and, you know, you're not hearing from one
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  person there, you're not seeing this person, participate in
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  presentations or engaged in meetings and projects and things
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  like that. That's something that needs to be checked out. You
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  know, let's, let's ask a few questions. And you know, what's
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  happening? And, and, you know, those are simple starting
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  points, have sessions with people, you know, to learn more
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  about their experience or what might be creating a barrier for
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  them.
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  Melinda Lee: Right. Yeah, I love that. So helping just to be more
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  aware and including that more in the discussion, when you notice
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  that they're not an engaging as much What if somebody is saying
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  something that is discriminatory? How can I
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  address it in a way that doesn't offend the person but shed
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  light? Like, can you give some tips on how to do that?
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  Brenda Harrington: When you say doesn't offend the person, can
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  you or
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  Melinda Lee: I guess, so that they're more open to hearing the
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  feedback and not be defensive and say, That's not me.
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  Brenda Harrington: I'm not really, you know, when you say
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  something, go ahead. Let's
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  Melinda Lee: say I said something I asked a question the
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  to somebody that may have been discriminatory Are you? Okay?
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  And then I'm a CEO. And I saw that I think that that's
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  disrespectful or potentially could be discriminatory. How
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  would I address it to that person in a way that's open? Or
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  enlightening conversation?
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  Brenda Harrington: If you're, if you're so if you're, if you're
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  addressing it with the person who made the comment, yes,
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  that's just a matter of saying, you know, that's, I think, well,
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  there's so many reasons to do it. I mean, because you have,
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  you know, you have personnel and risk management, all kinds of
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  concerns. But he say something that's, that is inappropriate.
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  And so, you know, in a situation like that, I mean, it's just a
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  matter of saying, you know, this is, this is inconsistent with,
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  you know, the, our standard for, for communication, you know, in
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  the organisation of bringing it to the person's attention, they
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  may or may not know, I don't know, but I think that it's a
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  responsibility, you know, for, for, for those kinds of things
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  to be addressed. My bigger concern is the person that it
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  impacted, and their, you know, concern about being able to
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  bring it forward, you know, whether or not there's a safe
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  space, you know, for that individual to raise a concern,
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  if they feel that something has been said or done, you know,
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  that's offence,
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  Melinda Lee: do you recommend that go to the manager or the
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  direct person? Or both?
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  Brenda Harrington: It depends on the it depends on the
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  environment and culture? Honestly, there might be, I
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  always prefer that, you know, I always think it's best if people
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  can, you know, address those things, one to one, you know, if
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  I come to you and say, you know, Melinda, the comment that you
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  made in the meeting, you know, made me uncomfortable, I would
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  hope that we could talk through that. Yeah. And so that to me,
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  if possible, would be the starting point. Sometimes,
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  unfortunately, it's, it's necessary to to escalate those
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  things, but I don't think should ever happen is that you remain
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  silent? Because, you know, that one sends the wrong message
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  that, that whatever was said or done is okay. And number two,
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  you know, the person may or may not be aware, right. I do think
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  it's important to know, though, I mean, the person may be fully
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  aware, and it might have been intentional. That's not okay,
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  either, right. But whatever the case is, whichever of those is
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  the right answer is, you know, something that needs to be
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  revealed.
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  Melinda Lee: Right. Right. And having a conversation about it,
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  Brenda Harrington: having a conversation? Yeah, for sure.
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  For sure. As
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  Melinda Lee: difficult as it is. And so can you share, I can
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  imagine that this work is so powerful and meaningful in
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  organisations, can you share any like, what are some of the
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  results that you've helped some companies achieve when you feel
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  when they're more inclusive, going from and feeling more
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  inclusive? You have? Well, it's
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  Brenda Harrington: certainly better for retention. And it
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  has, you know, both increased this, there's tonnes of research
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  that points to the top and bottom line value being more
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  inclusive, not just from the standpoint of, you know, race
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  and ethnicity, but also gender diversity and everything else. I
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  mean, because you just have the value of the benefit of so many
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  more perspectives and ideas. And, you know, it's less and
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  less myopic. It's much better for retention, when people feel
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  included. And when they feel a sense of psychological safety,
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  you know, that they feel that they're in a place that in an
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  environment that is where they're able to add value and
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  have an impact.
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  Melinda Lee: Right, they're spending so much time there, and
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  there's so much time. Yeah, yeah, or more companies more
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  open to doing this. Unfortunately,
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  Brenda Harrington: no, I think that there's been quite a
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  rollback, you know, it became the thing to do. 2020 2021. But
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  there's been a significant rollback, unfortunately, you
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  know, focus and attention to this, which is why, you know,
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  among the things that I do, just in general, in the leadership
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  space, and I'm really committed to, to keeping this conversation
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  alive. Yes,
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  Melinda Lee: yes, yes. And anything I could do to I mean,
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  it is so important, and it's so unfortunate that I would I asked
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  him surprised. I thought more companies are more are invested
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  in seeing the importance of this. You
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  Brenda Harrington: know, what companies are doing, you know,
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  things that are, I call them box checkers. They they somebody
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  came to me earlier this week and asked me to participate in a
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  training that included DTI and the DTI portion was about an
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  hour and I said no thank you, because it really isn't much
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  that you can accomplish it. In an hour, except to say that, you
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  know, Melinda attended this training, but it doesn't change
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  anything. Yeah. So it really is important for, you know, for
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  companies that are committed and who really take this seriously,
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  it's important for this kind of thing, and, and many other
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  things to show up in the fabric of, of the organisation. So I
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  talked about accountability earlier, you know, how we
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  holding managers and others accountable for the for the type
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  of behaviour that we want to see for the type of culture and the
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  environment we want to foster for everybody. And I think that
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  that's where we have an opportunity to do so much more
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  work.
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  Melinda Lee: Yeah, I could see that. I could see that. And they
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  might think that oh, doing this work is taking away from doing
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  things from the bottom line, doing things that affect the
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  bottom line, it could be seen as that. And that's unfortunate,
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  because it actually supports
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  Brenda Harrington: it apps. It's it absolutely supports bottom
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  line growth and bottom line growth. That's where I come back
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  to, you know, personal values and personal beliefs. So, you
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  know, like most things, it starts at the top.
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  Melinda Lee: Yes. Yes. Changing the hearts and the minds of from
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  the top. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much. Can
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  you share one, what is your key insight or tip that you can
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  leave our leaders today to help them with their leadership,
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  unleashing their voice? Your
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  Brenda Harrington: well, just in general, you know, whether we're
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  talking about this or any other topic with regard to leadership,
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  I think that the, one of the top leadership traits or
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  competencies in our current environment is curiosity. You
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  know, we can't rely on all the things that we've done over the
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  last 10 or 1520 20 years, even five years, you know, to to help
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  us to address and navigate today's challenges effectively.
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  So be willing to be curious, be willing to take some risks. Be
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  creative, innovative, and and let more voices bring more
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  voices into the conversation. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, leaders. I'm
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  sorry, I was just going to say, you know, some leaders seem to
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  be end of the mind that they need to have all the answers.
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  And you know, and that's not the case at all. So the more you can
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  be open and be collaborative, and just cast a wider net. I
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  think green. Yeah. Yeah.
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  Melinda Lee: I mean, that's, especially in today's nobody
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  knows, like, there's so much going on. Nobody knows. I mean,
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  I mean, the more as a leader, especially if you're at the top,
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  the more you can welcome and open and be able to listen to
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  diverse perspectives, have an open mind, stay curious and stay
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  in the present moment versus kind of thinking about what
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  worked in the past, because you have to be very curious about
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  what's here today.
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  Brenda Harrington: I talk to clients a lot about, you know,
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  being careful with people like lean on best practices. You
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  know, there's some of that that's very valuable. There's
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  some of that it's a lot of it has outlived its usefulness.
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  Melinda Lee: We were in a different day, different time.
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  And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Being more objective and being open to an
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  open and willing to be here. Right, even though it can be
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  very ambiguous. And
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  Brenda Harrington: so don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. Yeah.
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  Yeah. of not knowing. Yeah.
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  Melinda Lee: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much have such valuable
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  insight. I trust the audience has so much value in that a
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  takeaways from this. I know I did. Thank you. Appreciate your
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  time. Brenda, thank you so much for being here. Until next Yes.
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  Brenda Harrington: Thank you for having me.