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The Bumble Fumble · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I'm welcome to Stephan
0:07
Speaker 1: Never told you a production of iHeartRadio.
0:18
Speaker 2: Oh and we are coming back talking about dating and
0:23
Speaker 2: it's glory.
0:24
Speaker 3: I guess not really. So we've had a.
0:27
Speaker 2: Few episodes about dating and dating sites. Of course, something
0:32
Speaker 2: controversial just happened and that means we have to revisit it.
0:35
Speaker 2: And I feel like a majority of people who are
0:37
Speaker 2: on social media are on any of the dating sites.
0:41
Speaker 2: I already know what we're probably going to jump into.
0:44
Speaker 2: The boy did they put themselves in a bit of trouble?
0:48
Speaker 2: And what's so funny is this is going to be
0:50
Speaker 2: a shorter episode because obviously we're getting real trendy jump
0:56
Speaker 2: on social media controversy. But just the response and the
1:01
Speaker 2: things that are happening with this company. It's very interesting
1:04
Speaker 2: because we've already talked about the fact that dating sites
1:07
Speaker 2: are not as popular anymore. We've been inundated with so
1:11
Speaker 2: many types. Now they are all going to subscription base,
1:15
Speaker 2: which is really annoying. Can we We're going to eventually
1:17
Speaker 2: have to talk about why everything's going to subscription Yeah,
1:21
Speaker 2: because they want you to pay forever like this. This
1:23
Speaker 2: scheme is driving me nuts. Yeah, it doesn't make sense
1:28
Speaker 2: because like I was playing a phone game Annie, I'm
1:31
Speaker 2: going on a tangent and they have a subscription system,
1:34
Speaker 2: and I was like, wait, what a phone game. I've
1:38
Speaker 2: seen where you have to buy things, which I've gotten
1:40
Speaker 2: myself into trouble, like quit buying.
1:41
Speaker 3: Packages and like packs and stuff, right, but.
1:44
Speaker 2: Now most of some of them have just been like, hey,
1:46
Speaker 2: just pay twenty dollars a month and you can have
1:48
Speaker 2: this double access.
1:50
Speaker 1: It was like, what, Yeah, I've been looking at that
1:55
Speaker 1: in terms of what I subscribed you to during the pandemic. Yeah,
2:00
Speaker 1: because we were all isolated and we were all at
2:04
Speaker 1: least for a time, I think it faded away, but
2:06
Speaker 1: for a time we were all trying to We'll do
2:09
Speaker 1: virtual video game sessions together, will do virtual watch sessions together,
2:13
Speaker 1: and they were all subscription based. Yeah, so some of
2:16
Speaker 1: them I've been looking over and I'm debating, Okay, I
2:20
Speaker 1: really don't need that one anymore. This one I get,
2:23
Speaker 1: I kind of but yeah, that whole.
2:28
Speaker 2: Like I'm very upset anyway, that was a whole different tangent.
2:31
Speaker 2: But yeah, everything in the subscription systems and dating sites.
2:34
Speaker 2: I have been doing this, like Honestly, for the longest time,
2:37
Speaker 2: the subscription ones were rare, so match dot Com e Harmony,
2:42
Speaker 2: and people didn't use that as much because they were
2:45
Speaker 2: that base and you had to do like the multi
2:47
Speaker 2: whatever tier, your gold, you're this. Well, then everybody else
2:50
Speaker 2: started jumping on, including Tender, including Bumble, which is what
2:55
Speaker 2: we're talking about. And though yes I still have I'm
2:59
Speaker 2: talking about how which I hate the data system in
3:01
Speaker 2: which they just make money monthly. They do have a
3:05
Speaker 2: free service, and for a long time you were like cool,
3:08
Speaker 2: geared towards women, all these things. Bumble who boasts about
3:11
Speaker 2: its system allowing for women to have control when it
3:15
Speaker 2: comes to dating and relationships and even talks about men
3:20
Speaker 2: being able to find women who are strong, independent women
3:23
Speaker 2: if that's their type, literally says that and some of
3:25
Speaker 2: the things in it, and I was like, oh, who
3:27
Speaker 2: did this press release? That's not cute, but okay, And
3:30
Speaker 2: we have praised them because every now and again they
3:32
Speaker 2: do some things like you know, banning the toxic people
3:36
Speaker 2: men specifically, and those who are predators, like they oftentimes
3:41
Speaker 2: would seemingly take control of that and be like, we
3:45
Speaker 2: want to protect the women. The system of the Best
3:48
Speaker 2: Friends or friends finding system, which was newer, or they
3:51
Speaker 2: were one of the ones that popularized that the networking,
3:53
Speaker 2: so it seemed all cool. And I was looking at
3:57
Speaker 2: their social media because there's so many things going on
4:01
Speaker 2: and there's so many confusing things on this.
4:02
Speaker 3: But first let's.
4:04
Speaker 2: Talk about their recent ad in one of their for
4:07
Speaker 2: their business, which, by the way, their business has not
4:10
Speaker 2: been going well. All of the lists that I've been
4:12
Speaker 2: looking at for the top five dating sites, they have
4:16
Speaker 2: not been included, which surprised me. I honestly thought it
4:19
Speaker 2: would be there. The old faithful again Eharmonymatch, dot com
4:23
Speaker 2: and even okay Cuban have been on there and with
4:25
Speaker 2: some surprises like Zeusk made it on there.
4:28
Speaker 3: I was like, oh okay.
4:30
Speaker 2: Interesting her which is a queer site for women, so
4:33
Speaker 2: I was like, oh cool, they made it on to
4:36
Speaker 2: some list, but Bumble was nowhere to be found that
4:38
Speaker 2: I could see. And yeah, they had a layoff about
4:41
Speaker 2: around thirty percent of their staff around three hundred and
4:44
Speaker 2: fifty people recently, as well as a net loss of
4:47
Speaker 2: thirty two million in the last quarter of twenty twenty three.
4:51
Speaker 2: They and it's gotten bad. I think he's like forty
4:52
Speaker 2: two percent net loss in the last year, so not
4:56
Speaker 2: doing well. They are not doing well, but they decided
4:59
Speaker 2: to go down a uh kind of trendy. You know
5:02
Speaker 2: how social media people have been praised for being sarcastic
5:05
Speaker 2: and off the cuff edgy essentially.
5:08
Speaker 3: I guess this is where they were going.
5:09
Speaker 2: With this, because, Uh, it was kind of a clapping
5:12
Speaker 2: back at women who have decided not to date. So
5:15
Speaker 2: I guess bullying them into dating with billboards saying you
5:20
Speaker 2: know full well a vow of celibacy.
5:23
Speaker 3: Is not the answer. Who the are you talking to? Bumble?
5:29
Speaker 3: Excuse me?
5:30
Speaker 2: That statement in itself, the way is phrased, would make
5:34
Speaker 2: me want to fight, like.
5:36
Speaker 3: Who are you? And why are you in my space?
5:39
Speaker 3: Shut the up right? Excuse me?
5:46
Speaker 2: Oh you say I can't watch me like? That makes
5:48
Speaker 2: me want to do it more. And then another one
5:51
Speaker 2: that says thou shalt not give updating and become a nun, which.
5:56
Speaker 3: Is like an offensive. There's so many things.
5:59
Speaker 2: Offensive at this level, like why are you going after
6:02
Speaker 2: religion in one way? Why are you using like blasphemous
6:06
Speaker 2: speak for people who may be religious, like what the
6:09
Speaker 2: what the hell.
6:10
Speaker 3: What the hell?
6:11
Speaker 1: Indeed exactly, but also that's a very dichotomy. That is not.
6:18
Speaker 3: So if I don't want to, I guess I'll Vietnam.
6:22
Speaker 3: That's only choice.
6:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I'm so like isolated in this that there's
6:28
Speaker 2: only religion.
6:28
Speaker 3: Religion is the only term for me. I don't know.
6:31
Speaker 2: But of course, as I have had this visceral reaction
6:34
Speaker 2: and you're having this reaction, responses are not are as expected.
6:39
Speaker 2: They're not excited, they don't get this. Most of the reactions,
6:42
Speaker 2: again were visceral, many trying to figure out whether it
6:45
Speaker 2: was a joke and how it even gotten approved, Like
6:49
Speaker 2: who the actually looked to see if I could find
6:51
Speaker 2: their marketing and advertising person. I did not find those
6:55
Speaker 2: numbers or those names, because I want to blast them,
6:58
Speaker 2: like what were you thinking?
6:59
Speaker 3: Was it a man?
7:00
Speaker 2: And it has to be a man, some would tell me,
7:01
Speaker 2: because it sounds like what a man would say when
7:04
Speaker 2: they're rejected, you know, trying to in order to like
7:08
Speaker 2: talk you into dating them, Like this is what it seems,
7:10
Speaker 2: And this is of course a very heteronormative conversation the
7:13
Speaker 2: way I am having it, But that's what it is,
7:15
Speaker 2: almost the sexist level of like, excuse me, you want
7:19
Speaker 2: to do this as pr Daily dot Com put it quote.
7:22
Speaker 2: Social media users castigated Bumble for insinuating that people couldn't
7:26
Speaker 2: make celibacy a personal choice. Others also read the message
7:29
Speaker 2: as supporting patriarchal notions that insinuate women can't make their
7:33
Speaker 2: own sexual choices, which was like the underline of like, really,
7:38
Speaker 2: why would you? What are you trying to say? This
7:41
Speaker 2: is not selling it. Someone was talking about this, you know,
7:44
Speaker 2: only leads to hookup culture, which can be toxic in
7:47
Speaker 2: itself and really is patriarchal and sexist in a lot
7:50
Speaker 2: of ways.
7:50
Speaker 3: The reactions have.
7:51
Speaker 2: Been quite entertaining a lot of conversations, and we want
7:55
Speaker 2: to read some of those off from ink dot com.
7:57
Speaker 2: They wrote on x Twitter, for example, one you just
8:01
Speaker 2: said they were shocked by the at Bubble ads, saying
8:04
Speaker 2: a vow for celibacy is not the answer, and noted
8:07
Speaker 2: that in a world fighting for respect and autonomy over
8:09
Speaker 2: our bodies, is appalling to see a dating platform undermine
8:13
Speaker 2: women's choices. Wasn't this app supposed to empower women to
8:16
Speaker 2: date on their terms. Taking a different track, another user
8:19
Speaker 2: explained to the brand that asexuality is a sexual orientation
8:24
Speaker 2: and advised Bubble to do better. Another commentator wondered if
8:27
Speaker 2: Bubble had quote put millions of dollars into the failed
8:30
Speaker 2: ad campaign, and questioned, wtf is happening during these ideation meetings.
8:35
Speaker 3: I'm not really sure.
8:37
Speaker 2: I can't I really I can't imagine what they were
8:40
Speaker 2: thinking with these like this is funny, this is gonna
8:42
Speaker 2: be this is gonna be real funny.
8:43
Speaker 3: Right, everybody's gonna love this.
8:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, it just feels really out of touch because I
8:48
Speaker 1: feel like, definitely in terms of the access to reprojective
8:56
Speaker 1: rights and abortion right now, it feels out of touch.
8:59
Speaker 1: It's all so like we've talked about this before that
9:02
Speaker 1: I feel there's a strange thing, and they went about
9:06
Speaker 1: even this strange thing in the worst way. But there's
9:08
Speaker 1: a there's like a idea that is held that the
9:13
Speaker 1: liberated feminist woman must want a lot of sex, and
9:17
Speaker 1: so I feel like they were like leaning into that,
9:22
Speaker 1: but as you said, they were doing it in like
9:24
Speaker 1: the most shame. Something's wrong with you. Let's bring in religion,
9:29
Speaker 1: which a lot of people have issues with anyway, right.
9:33
Speaker 2: Right, I'm not really sure why they thought condescending was
9:37
Speaker 2: the way to go.
9:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like you said, it feels kind of bullying.
9:40
Speaker 1: It's like, or what you're doing it wrong? Subscribe to
9:44
Speaker 1: our service.
9:46
Speaker 3: Let's do this. I got you.
9:47
Speaker 2: But like, it's funny because a couple of other posts
9:50
Speaker 2: like if you go onto any of their social media
9:54
Speaker 2: bumble social media, people are angry in writing things. In
9:56
Speaker 2: one of the comments, it makes a great point when
9:59
Speaker 2: they say, run an ad campaign telling men how to
10:03
Speaker 2: write better bios, take better photos, how to actually hold
10:07
Speaker 2: a conversation and string basic sentence together and not randomly
10:10
Speaker 2: bring up sex in the middle of a normal conversation.
10:14
Speaker 2: Then men will have more success on your app. This
10:16
Speaker 2: isn't women's problems to fix. Yeah, again, she's not wrong. Yeah,
10:23
Speaker 2: I don't know the numbers though that probably we probably
10:26
Speaker 2: could look and see how many men do subscribe to Bumble,
10:28
Speaker 2: and there are may be more men than women at
10:30
Speaker 2: this point, and that might be the problem. But yeah,
10:32
Speaker 2: if you don't, if you really want men to be
10:34
Speaker 2: enticing for women or people to be enticing for women
10:37
Speaker 2: as in general, but this very head normative idea, then
10:40
Speaker 2: you might want to teach how to do this right.
10:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that is a really a good point
10:45
Speaker 1: because it is placing it and That's always been the
10:49
Speaker 1: thing with bumble right is you know, women take the
10:52
Speaker 1: first move, which has its pluses and minuses, but this
10:56
Speaker 1: is like really putting it on. There's no.
11:03
Speaker 2: Right weirdly too, So this happened, and then two days
11:08
Speaker 2: ago we're going to talk about their apology. On their site,
11:11
Speaker 2: they had a like they're having a crossover promotion with
11:15
Speaker 2: several of the influencers that's wearing a shirt that says
11:18
Speaker 2: exhausted with like you know the old school paintings, you know,
11:21
Speaker 2: how they become memes of a woman like lounging and
11:26
Speaker 2: in these people who are influencers who have been working
11:29
Speaker 2: with mumbled to cross promote, but exhausted and tired and single,
11:34
Speaker 2: Like I feel like they're telling you what's wrong, exhausted
11:40
Speaker 2: and tired of dating and single? Like I feel like, yeah,
11:46
Speaker 2: you're doing the like, how are you doing both of the.
11:50
Speaker 1: Yeah?
11:50
Speaker 2: I think you understand what they're trying to say, right,
11:53
Speaker 2: and you're trying to put okay what Yeah.
11:59
Speaker 3: So it's very like.
12:00
Speaker 2: They're they're advertising is oh thoroughly confusing. As in fact,
12:03
Speaker 2: they've been trying to do these new things recently and
12:07
Speaker 2: it hasn't been successful Another article written in today dot
12:10
Speaker 2: Com writes a sense removed video ad posted to x
12:14
Speaker 2: Twitter on April thirtieth was also part of the campaign.
12:17
Speaker 2: In it, a woman joins an all female religious group,
12:21
Speaker 2: but later it becomes infatuated by a shirtless man shrimming
12:25
Speaker 2: the hedges. That night, another woman gives her a phone
12:28
Speaker 2: with a bumble loading. The first woman then leaves the group.
12:30
Speaker 2: In the text reads, we've changed so you don't have to.
12:37
Speaker 3: What are you doing? Bumble? That's so bizarre, Like.
12:46
Speaker 2: We're gonna help change your mind. Like it's such a
12:50
Speaker 2: weird trope.
12:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like here's this.
12:52
Speaker 3: With this whole religious group thing.
12:54
Speaker 1: Hot shirtless man give up what I must assume might
12:58
Speaker 1: be a pretty serious decision. You may be a nun.
13:01
Speaker 1: You don't just become a nun. There can be drama
13:04
Speaker 1: behind it, for sure, but you don't just become a nun.
13:08
Speaker 2: And this article goes on. Many critics of the ads
13:11
Speaker 2: have said they minimize the variety of reasons people, especially women,
13:15
Speaker 2: may choose to be celibate. And again, this also brought
13:18
Speaker 2: out the whole four B movement, which we have talked
13:21
Speaker 2: about repeatedly. It has grown, y'all like people are actually
13:25
Speaker 2: taking this seriously to the fact that men are getting mad.
13:28
Speaker 2: Men from the US Western culture are getting mad at
13:31
Speaker 2: this whole ideal and saying things like you're gonna be
13:36
Speaker 2: alone and sad, and we've already talked about how funny
13:38
Speaker 2: that is, and you're like, I don't think you understand
13:41
Speaker 2: what makes us sad. Being alone isn't necessarily yet you
13:45
Speaker 2: can't be don't get me wrong, but that's not necessarily
13:49
Speaker 2: the whole reason about what's.
13:51
Speaker 3: Going on today.
13:51
Speaker 2: Dot com decided to add some more Bumble needs to
13:54
Speaker 2: back off and stop trying to shame women into coming
13:57
Speaker 2: back into the apps run as targeted at men, telling
14:00
Speaker 2: them to be normal once again. You can date whilst
14:03
Speaker 2: being celibate, So it makes no sense anyway. You're enforcing
14:06
Speaker 2: a male entitlement to our bodies, which I think is interesting.
14:09
Speaker 2: And then they say, Bumble doing a campaign attempting to
14:12
Speaker 2: shame celibacy accidence is an unserious way to tell the
14:16
Speaker 2: public y'all are nervous. It's also a very offensive way
14:19
Speaker 2: to tell your female customers that you're profiting off of
14:22
Speaker 2: their legs.
14:22
Speaker 3: Being open blunt to the point.
14:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it was kind of like.
14:29
Speaker 3: Y'all don't need all that.
14:32
Speaker 1: No, you really really don't. As you said, and we've
14:46
Speaker 1: discussed before, there is a lot of dating apps are
14:49
Speaker 1: hemorrhaging there game crisis, but there are reasons for that
14:55
Speaker 1: that we've talked about that are well known, and it
14:57
Speaker 1: is a lot of like predatory male behavior or just
15:02
Speaker 1: like a waste of your time. You go through so
15:04
Speaker 1: many profiles and you're like, okay, this guy this no good,
15:07
Speaker 1: no good, no good. So yeah, this does feel like
15:13
Speaker 1: it's leaning back on very patriarchal ideas of women. Your
15:18
Speaker 1: time is running out. You want the man, right, like,
15:21
Speaker 1: you're not gonna be abstinent what that would be. You
15:25
Speaker 1: don't want to be a frud You've got to get
15:28
Speaker 1: them in so right, not addressing the real issues, right, yeah, right.
15:38
Speaker 2: That's I think that again, that's a big point of
15:40
Speaker 2: what they're saying, what many of the critics are saying.
15:43
Speaker 2: Of course, realizing that they may have made a mistake,
15:45
Speaker 2: but they they did make an official apology and this
15:48
Speaker 2: is what they wrote on their on their different social
15:50
Speaker 2: media posts to our beloved Bumble community, we made a mistake.
15:55
Speaker 2: Our ads referencing celibacy would attempt to lean into a
15:58
Speaker 2: community frustrated by modern dating, and then, instead of bringing
16:01
Speaker 2: joy in humor, we unintentionally did the opposite. Some of
16:05
Speaker 2: the perspectives we heard were from those who shared that
16:08
Speaker 2: celibacy is the only answer when reproductive rights are continuously
16:12
Speaker 2: restricted from others for whom celibacy is a choice one
16:16
Speaker 2: that we respect, and from the asexual community, for whom
16:19
Speaker 2: celibacy can have a particular meaning and importance which should
16:22
Speaker 2: not be diminished. We are also aware that for many,
16:26
Speaker 2: celibacy may be brought on by harm or trauma. For years,
16:30
Speaker 2: Bumble has passionately stood up for women and marginalized communities
16:34
Speaker 2: and their right to fully exercise personal choice.
16:37
Speaker 3: We didn't live up.
16:38
Speaker 2: To these values with this campaign, and we apologize for
16:40
Speaker 2: the harm it costs. So here's what we're doing. We're
16:43
Speaker 2: removing these ads from our global marketing campaign. Bumble will
16:47
Speaker 2: be making a donation to the National Domestic Violence Hotline,
16:51
Speaker 2: among other organizations, as a part of our ongoing efforts
16:54
Speaker 2: to support the work being done around the world to
16:56
Speaker 2: support women, marginalized communities, and those impact by abuse. We
17:01
Speaker 2: will also be offering these partners this billboard space to
17:04
Speaker 2: display an ad of their choice for the duration of
17:07
Speaker 2: our reserved billboard time. Please keep speaking up and telling
17:11
Speaker 2: us how we can be better. We care about you
17:13
Speaker 2: and it will always be here for you with love
17:15
Speaker 2: and sincere appreciation.
17:17
Speaker 3: Bumble.
17:18
Speaker 2: So they're trying to come through with fixing things. I
17:24
Speaker 2: guess that's the way we can say. Of course, the reaction.
17:31
Speaker 3: Not so forgiving.
17:32
Speaker 2: One of the responses were but they are still not
17:35
Speaker 2: getting it. It's not only about reproductive rites or asexuality.
17:38
Speaker 2: For many women across the country, is because dating straight
17:41
Speaker 2: men has become just not at all worth the time
17:44
Speaker 2: and effort it takes because men are not held to
17:46
Speaker 2: a higher standard regarding empathy, emotional intelligence, maturity or communication.
17:52
Speaker 2: We are exhausted, which is one of the shirts they
17:55
Speaker 2: have on there, and being celibate is easy then dealing
18:00
Speaker 2: with a dumpster fire that is trying to date as
18:03
Speaker 2: a straight woman, to be honest, regardless of age. This
18:06
Speaker 2: ad campaign was in such poor taste, especially because they're
18:10
Speaker 2: supposed to be advocating for women and not exploiting them
18:13
Speaker 2: to the lower standards from the atrocious hookup culture.
18:16
Speaker 3: Do better, Bumble. So they were not happy.
18:19
Speaker 2: So many of them were like you know the celibacy
18:22
Speaker 2: community isn't pressed. We didn't ask for your allyship. You
18:26
Speaker 2: dressed these ladies as nuns to insinuate that celibate women
18:30
Speaker 2: are recluse and limited.
18:31
Speaker 3: We aren't.
18:32
Speaker 2: We are actually happy over here. Really, I really appreciated
18:36
Speaker 2: that one. Another one wrote, only sorry because you were
18:39
Speaker 2: losing customers and they are losing customers. And then another
18:42
Speaker 2: one wrote, you didn't lean into a community. You leaned
18:45
Speaker 2: into the feelings of men. You had no regard for women.
18:49
Speaker 2: You made it a woman's problem to fix the lack
18:51
Speaker 2: of sex men are having. How about addressing why women
18:54
Speaker 2: are not interested in having a relationship with men. Maybe
18:57
Speaker 2: you tell the men to fix themselves instead of the
19:00
Speaker 2: mean to give in do better.
19:02
Speaker 3: I think that's that's pretty powerful statement.
19:08
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, well that's exactly what happened. And whether
19:12
Speaker 2: or not they thought it was funny or who thought
19:14
Speaker 2: it was that was right on point. You made it
19:17
Speaker 2: a woman's problem to fix the lack of sex men
19:20
Speaker 2: are having, which is something that is continually being said
19:24
Speaker 2: and it is a big proponent of rape culture. On
19:27
Speaker 2: top of control, like this ownership that men have over
19:31
Speaker 2: women and that they are owed sex.
19:34
Speaker 1: Yes, which we've also discussed a lot before. That is
19:38
Speaker 1: extremely detrimental, especially when you're younger and you're trying to
19:42
Speaker 1: figure out things that you like and wants, and then
19:47
Speaker 1: this pressure, this pressure comes in to do like if, oh,
19:53
Speaker 1: if I don't have sex with him, he'll leave right,
19:56
Speaker 1: He'll find someone else. So even if I don't want it,
20:00
Speaker 1: I'm going to do it. This actually stirred up a
20:03
Speaker 1: memory for me too. I uh once was with two
20:10
Speaker 1: dudes that one of them I later found out like,
20:14
Speaker 1: had a big crush on me. I didn't know this
20:15
Speaker 1: at the time, but he said he was celibate, and
20:18
Speaker 1: I just was like, yeah, okay, And that guy we
20:20
Speaker 1: were with was like, oh, that's cool, and he asked me.
20:23
Speaker 1: I was like, no, I've had sex, and he's like, oh.
20:28
Speaker 1: But I feel like if I'd said I was celibate,
20:30
Speaker 1: he would have also. But with the guy, he just
20:33
Speaker 1: was like, oh cool. But for me, as a woman,
20:36
Speaker 1: he felt like, oh oh no. He felt very ready
20:43
Speaker 1: to weigh in on that situation because he had had
20:47
Speaker 1: sex for sure, but not me. Not cool.
20:52
Speaker 3: Oh, I think you're cool. Thanks.
20:57
Speaker 1: It's just weird that we put that on women. It's
20:59
Speaker 1: like it comes the have you had sex in you're slut,
21:03
Speaker 1: But if you haven't had sex, well you're.
21:07
Speaker 3: None, right and you must be miserable.
21:09
Speaker 2: All right, and you're unhappy quote unquote, which is again
21:13
Speaker 2: such an odd statement, Like there's so many we've gotten
21:16
Speaker 2: so far, like you have said, from women be liberated
21:21
Speaker 2: to if you're not liberated, then you are stunted and
21:24
Speaker 2: oppressed and unhappy.
21:27
Speaker 1: Right, And it's really unfortunate because I think that if
21:33
Speaker 1: you want to have consensual sex, totally support you shouldn't
21:40
Speaker 1: be judged for it. Should be should be able to
21:43
Speaker 1: use an app and feel safe. That would be great.
21:45
Speaker 1: If you don't want to that should also be okay.
21:49
Speaker 1: But I feel like we've really reduced it into an
21:52
Speaker 1: either or that is not healthy.
21:54
Speaker 2: Right.
21:54
Speaker 1: You could be a liberated woman who's like I actually
21:57
Speaker 1: not into sex.
21:59
Speaker 2: That's fine, that's good, that's your choice. That's the conversation.
22:04
Speaker 2: And it's kind of to this level of it's such
22:08
Speaker 2: a weird level of like feminists and anti feminists, like
22:12
Speaker 2: it's being used as both.
22:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, I've had a lot of I've had a
22:22
Speaker 1: lot of thoughts about this lately. I want to come
22:25
Speaker 1: back and do this even though it's going to make
22:26
Speaker 1: me really mad. But I've seen that happen a lot
22:30
Speaker 1: recently in politics, where usually white women, conservative white women
22:38
Speaker 1: are using feminist terminology now that they once never would
22:41
Speaker 1: have but now they're using it and be like, oh,
22:44
Speaker 1: you won't let me speak because I'm a woman, and
22:46
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, the rules are it's not.
22:49
Speaker 3: Your term to speak, that's the rule.
22:53
Speaker 1: So I do think there's something that's happening that's a
22:56
Speaker 1: flattening of what femine and intersexual feminism is right, and
23:03
Speaker 1: it's concerning me, and honestly it is.
23:05
Speaker 2: I think there's the bigger conversation is that we we
23:11
Speaker 2: need to remember. I think we're so caught up in
23:15
Speaker 2: fighting about feminism. M that's the best perspective is like
23:19
Speaker 2: intersectionality is different. Like I wish we could we came
23:23
Speaker 2: in the episode talking about how feminism was a bad
23:25
Speaker 2: word and it's just now being misconstrued, not feminism in
23:29
Speaker 2: its theory and what it is, but like.
23:31
Speaker 3: Of who is using it and why? Yes, and I did.
23:35
Speaker 2: I wanted to look it up because again that conversation
23:38
Speaker 2: is like why are you telling women that they need
23:41
Speaker 2: to have sex, that you're not going to be able
23:43
Speaker 2: to do this type of thing. Interestingly, in twenty twenty three,
23:48
Speaker 2: the gender ratio goes male to female three to one.
23:51
Speaker 2: There's only thirty four point seven users that are female
23:55
Speaker 2: or that are women for Bumble as of twenty twenty three.
23:57
Speaker 2: So this is not the way. Why would you You've
24:01
Speaker 2: lost so many of your main people, why would.
24:06
Speaker 1: You do this, right, especially because they've gone away from
24:10
Speaker 1: this now. But it was, Yes, women had to reach
24:15
Speaker 1: out first.
24:16
Speaker 2: I think they they still do technically, unless maybe they
24:18
Speaker 2: have like the premium.
24:19
Speaker 1: I think pretty recently. Oh really, they've gone away from it,
24:23
Speaker 1: and it could be because of those numbers.
24:25
Speaker 3: That might be why. Yeah, because I don't know what
24:27
Speaker 3: the like.
24:28
Speaker 1: Maybe it is a different tier. I'm not sure, but
24:30
Speaker 1: I'm I'm pretty sure they've gone away from women have
24:34
Speaker 1: to make the first move, which was their whole thing.
24:37
Speaker 1: And it would make sense if me like a third
24:41
Speaker 1: of their users are women.
24:44
Speaker 2: Right, right, So looks like they have different Bumble boosts
24:49
Speaker 2: versus premium, and that's significant if you want to get
24:53
Speaker 2: the premium for your for life, which is really sad.
24:56
Speaker 3: Hey maybe you just want to date maybe, Okay, that's right.
24:59
Speaker 3: So I'm sorry.
25:00
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but if you're trying to get in here
25:02
Speaker 2: for relationship relationships and that's that, I'm sorry. But it's
25:06
Speaker 2: two hundred and twenty nine to ninety nine for lifetime
25:09
Speaker 2: subscription for Mumble Premium, which apparently allows you see who's
25:15
Speaker 2: already liked you, advanced filters for your feed, It gives
25:19
Speaker 2: you incognito mode, and travel mode lets you change locations. Wait,
25:24
Speaker 2: they don't let you do that now.
25:26
Speaker 3: I used to be able to.
25:28
Speaker 1: I don't know.
25:29
Speaker 3: Oh man, I used to be able to ten years ago.
25:32
Speaker 3: It's been a minute.
25:33
Speaker 2: I have ever dated anyone off that one though. I
25:35
Speaker 2: never could make the move.
25:38
Speaker 1: Honestly, I would have a tough time making the move.
25:40
Speaker 2: Which is a lot of people have talked about that too,
25:42
Speaker 2: that are like, you know, it's a great idea, but
25:44
Speaker 2: sometimes it's just doesn't work that way, Like if people
25:46
Speaker 2: are too shy, girls don't know how to start, like
25:48
Speaker 2: all of those things.
25:50
Speaker 1: Well again, also, if the dating online dating community is
25:53
Speaker 1: so toxic, then yeah, I'm nervous it's going to be
25:56
Speaker 1: somebody who's going to send me a ticic. I mean,
25:58
Speaker 1: right immediately, I think I never had that. I can't
26:01
Speaker 1: I think I just have that face. Don't pull me.
26:04
Speaker 2: It's a face a lot in this episode. But yeah,
26:08
Speaker 2: like it's it's I'm actually surprised. I thought it would
26:11
Speaker 2: be the other way around, or at least even but man,
26:14
Speaker 2: three to.
26:15
Speaker 3: One, that's significant.
26:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you run these ads like you need to.
26:21
Speaker 2: I don't think you understand. Why are you doing the
26:26
Speaker 2: push and pull thing? Who do you have on your
26:31
Speaker 2: advertising team?
26:32
Speaker 3: Is it the dudes at the hookup dudes? Because this
26:35
Speaker 3: is bad? Like? What really? What were you thinking?
26:39
Speaker 1: I mean, knowing this now, I think they're thinking, as
26:44
Speaker 1: some of the other users pointed out, they're losing a
26:46
Speaker 1: lot of money, They're losing a lot of users. Maybe
26:49
Speaker 1: we'll go back to things that's tried and true, patriarchal
26:53
Speaker 1: methods that people have used before. But try to dress
26:58
Speaker 1: it up as some weird, weird empowerment message that it's
27:02
Speaker 1: definitely not.
27:04
Speaker 3: There's so many things, there's so many things that I
27:06
Speaker 3: have questions about. But yes, I think.
27:09
Speaker 2: At least they are giving that space to other I
27:13
Speaker 2: don't know, I don't know what space they have used
27:17
Speaker 2: it for. I haven't looked that far into it. Outside
27:20
Speaker 2: the controversy and their apology which was given two days ago,
27:23
Speaker 2: or today's May sixteenth, twenty twenty four. So I guess
27:27
Speaker 2: like May fourteenth is when they decided, oh yeah, we
27:30
Speaker 2: sicked up.
27:31
Speaker 3: Here we go.
27:32
Speaker 2: As I'm looking at their social media posts in general,
27:35
Speaker 2: like nothing, nothing is a standout outside of yeah, the
27:40
Speaker 2: fact that they had no they have several influencers having
27:44
Speaker 2: that exhausted T shirt on.
27:46
Speaker 1: Yeah.
27:48
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know, because like this one influencer, she
27:50
Speaker 2: wrote in her caption Exhausted Girl Summer at Bumble wake
27:56
Speaker 2: Up Call. Maybe it's telling them to wake up and
27:59
Speaker 2: stop being exhausted. It doesn't play doesn't sound good, It
28:03
Speaker 2: doesn't play into what I think.
28:05
Speaker 1: No, that does not sound good.
28:06
Speaker 2: Single, fabulous and exhausted from the dating scene wake up call.
28:13
Speaker 2: If you're single and fabulous and exhausted, then.
28:17
Speaker 3: Why do you want to put yourself from the dating scene.
28:22
Speaker 3: Sounds like you're good. It sounds like you're great. You
28:26
Speaker 3: look good.
28:26
Speaker 2: And the shirt this influencer looks great. I think her
28:29
Speaker 2: name is Tessa. She looks amazing. But yeah, like it,
28:33
Speaker 2: I'm baffled in the slip that they have. I'm not
28:36
Speaker 2: really sure Again, they did not think this through again,
28:39
Speaker 2: I have not seen maybe these posts were up up
28:43
Speaker 2: on social media. I think they were only billboards from
28:45
Speaker 2: what I gathered, they just ended up spreading wide and
28:48
Speaker 2: far did not go well. They forgot that social media
28:51
Speaker 2: was a thing and going viral is not necessarily great.
28:56
Speaker 3: But yeah, I think it.
28:59
Speaker 2: Makes me sad to see something that was women empowering
29:02
Speaker 2: at the beginning owned by a woman who went through
29:05
Speaker 2: her own stuff at Tinder, did her own thing, was
29:08
Speaker 2: making money doing her little thing, and then it comes
29:11
Speaker 2: to this and being like, yeah, you're just like every
29:13
Speaker 2: corporation that we've seen. You want our money, you want
29:17
Speaker 2: women to build you up and hold you up, but
29:21
Speaker 2: when it comes to caring for the women, you do
29:24
Speaker 2: minimally and then just crash and burn.
29:28
Speaker 1: So it seems, yeah, it's a very status quo type
29:36
Speaker 1: of add because I've been thinking about this too, about
29:40
Speaker 1: gender dads, and like we've moved on from these, haven't.
29:42
Speaker 1: We can't, we we don't need to do this anymore,
29:47
Speaker 1: but people are still doing it because it worked once
29:49
Speaker 1: upon a time, but now we're yeah, things are going
29:53
Speaker 1: viral and we're having opinions about it and it's not
29:57
Speaker 1: working like it used to uh and still companies. If
30:03
Speaker 1: I feel like they rely on it, they rely on
30:05
Speaker 1: that structure, that kind of patriarchy.
30:13
Speaker 3: You've got to.
30:13
Speaker 1: Pay for it women or else right, you'll never get
30:17
Speaker 1: a man. Oh dear, oh no threatened me with a
30:25
Speaker 1: good time.
30:31
Speaker 2: J I would be interested to know if the usage
30:45
Speaker 2: has actually gone down, because the numbers that I'm seeing
30:48
Speaker 2: are not showing that necessarily, but it's consistently showing that.
30:51
Speaker 3: It's mainly more men than women, and.
30:54
Speaker 2: As in fact, a Pew research article talking about it
30:59
Speaker 2: said women who have used online dating platforms in the
31:01
Speaker 2: past year twenty twenty four are more likely to feel
31:05
Speaker 2: overwhelmed by the number of messages they get, while men
31:08
Speaker 2: are more likely to feel insecure about a lack of message.
31:12
Speaker 2: So I feel like, I feel like for anybody who
31:17
Speaker 2: is trying to think of what to do, like if
31:20
Speaker 2: they're trying to make money and looking like at apps
31:22
Speaker 2: and sites, they need to put these in consideration, Like
31:26
Speaker 2: they need to think about how this is vetted. And
31:28
Speaker 2: I think there are some that we have seen that
31:31
Speaker 2: have done better with that, but then they've changed because
31:35
Speaker 2: they weren't getting enough influx. And again, none of these
31:38
Speaker 2: are sponsors obviously.
31:41
Speaker 3: Not speaking very highly of.
31:43
Speaker 2: Them, so but none of them are really sponsors. But
31:45
Speaker 2: I know that coffee meets bagel. Their intention was only
31:50
Speaker 2: giving you a FeMn at a time. Maybe that has changed,
31:54
Speaker 2: and then I feel like hinged with something similar where
31:57
Speaker 2: you're supposed to know at least someone that they know,
31:59
Speaker 2: and that has changed too. I think cans become a
32:02
Speaker 2: little more popular since they first started, but I know,
32:08
Speaker 2: like the original intents were different, so I feel like
32:12
Speaker 2: I don't know if they just weren't making enough, or
32:14
Speaker 2: they're trying to catch up to Tender, which was always
32:16
Speaker 2: been a part of the hookup culture, so they have
32:19
Speaker 2: their own thing again, but it's mainly men.
32:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I feel like so many companies. It makes
32:31
Speaker 1: me sad because I'm like, what you started out as
32:35
Speaker 1: I liked, and then capitalism really got the clause in
32:38
Speaker 1: and you became moved away from that. But it is
32:41
Speaker 1: ultimately an issue of rape culture and dating culture, and
32:46
Speaker 1: it's isolating and sad because I feel like people do
32:50
Speaker 1: want to get together, but reasonably women don't feel safe
32:54
Speaker 1: and men then feel and secure hurt. They're not getting
32:59
Speaker 1: any right messages or nothing compared to what women are getting.
33:06
Speaker 1: But that's that's how it is. So your billboard is
33:12
Speaker 1: not gonna help, all right, we don't try to change
33:16
Speaker 1: right situation.
33:17
Speaker 2: And yeah, coming back to the Pew research, it says
33:20
Speaker 2: younger women who have used dating sites or apps stand
33:22
Speaker 2: out for experiencing unwanted behaviors on these platforms. It goes
33:26
Speaker 2: on to say a majority of women under fifty who
33:29
Speaker 2: have used dating sites or apps, fifty six percent say
33:32
Speaker 2: they have been sent explicit sexually explicit messages or images
33:35
Speaker 2: they didn't ask for, and about four in ten have
33:38
Speaker 2: had someone continue to contact them after they said they
33:41
Speaker 2: were not interested. That was about forty three percent of them,
33:44
Speaker 2: or have been called an offensive name that's thirty seven
33:47
Speaker 2: percent of them, and roughly one intent of this group,
33:50
Speaker 2: eleven percent have received threats of physical harm. But yeah,
33:53
Speaker 2: so you see, like one in ten have received threats
33:57
Speaker 2: of physical harm. Are you kidding me?
34:00
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think it's unreasonable to expect anything from an
34:04
Speaker 1: online dating encounter in the beginning stages other than let's see,
34:09
Speaker 1: if maybe I'm interested, right, I don't think that should
34:12
Speaker 1: like any rejection from that if it's politely like, hey,
34:17
Speaker 1: I'm not interested, that should not be a threat of violence.
34:21
Speaker 1: It should not be like I'm going to send you
34:23
Speaker 1: a dick pic anyway. It should not be like that's
34:25
Speaker 1: how relationships work. You don't just like.
34:29
Speaker 2: You do.
34:30
Speaker 3: You have a little bit of a back and forth.
34:32
Speaker 2: First, right, right, I mean if she asks you, if
34:36
Speaker 2: they ask you for it, sure go for it. Is
34:39
Speaker 2: cold consent, right, you do you? But outside of that,
34:42
Speaker 2: what And that Pew research paper was actually twenty twenty three,
34:46
Speaker 2: so it's a year old, so who knows, because like again,
34:49
Speaker 2: I haven't seen much since then. I don't see much
34:52
Speaker 2: since then. I'm sure our new one will come out
34:54
Speaker 2: if it hasn't already, and I.
34:55
Speaker 3: Just had seen it.
34:56
Speaker 2: But the fact that that at least half the women
35:00
Speaker 2: like half like under fifty, which is the majority of
35:03
Speaker 2: people like. It's gotten more popular for fifty and over,
35:06
Speaker 2: but for a chunk of the people and users, they're
35:09
Speaker 2: under fifty typically, And to have to deal with that
35:12
Speaker 2: constantly and then have this kind of ad that really
35:14
Speaker 2: shames women for say they don't want to have sex.
35:18
Speaker 1: Excuse me, yeah, absolutely, especially when the exhausted part is
35:25
Speaker 1: part of their campaign.
35:27
Speaker 3: Seemingly no women are saying they're exhausted. But you want
35:30
Speaker 3: to add this to their you want to lame and guilt? Okay, cool, cool, cool.
35:34
Speaker 1: Turn it on them like they're not trying hard enough
35:38
Speaker 1: or something. It is on you that you're exhausted, actually, and.
35:42
Speaker 3: You should do this more right, whether you want to
35:46
Speaker 3: what's cowarts? What?
35:49
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I had not heard about this until you
35:53
Speaker 1: brought it to my attention, but it is quite a.
35:56
Speaker 2: It's a buzz around my my FYP and I was like,
36:04
Speaker 2: this is this is not real? I really thought it
36:06
Speaker 2: was a joke at first. It's like, that's not true.
36:08
Speaker 3: That's nice.
36:09
Speaker 2: I had to make sure because it was around April.
36:11
Speaker 2: I was, I guess this this is still like an
36:13
Speaker 2: older April fool one.
36:15
Speaker 3: What's happening? Yeah?
36:16
Speaker 2: And then just the last bit, I did see a
36:18
Speaker 2: see in an article where it says Tender downloads are falling,
36:21
Speaker 2: but the dating app era isn't over yet, so they
36:24
Speaker 2: are falling. They apparently fell by at least eight percent
36:27
Speaker 2: from last year to just below ten million users, so
36:33
Speaker 2: they're declining. Like we kind of knew that was going
36:36
Speaker 2: to happen. We kind of knew it was happening. The
36:38
Speaker 2: peak times were twenty sixteen and twenty eighteen, it looks like,
36:42
Speaker 2: which is an interesting time so on I guess I
36:45
Speaker 2: was on it then I was one of those. Twenty
36:48
Speaker 2: twenty had that increase as well. Not surprising, but yeah,
36:53
Speaker 2: it is pretty significantly lower, definitely the lowest it's been
36:57
Speaker 2: since twenty fourteen.
36:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we talked about that a little bit in
37:03
Speaker 1: the recent ISH episode we did about what's going on
37:06
Speaker 1: with online dating, and in that episode we a lot
37:10
Speaker 1: of people, especially younger people, cited exhaustion, like just being
37:16
Speaker 1: tired with it. But you mentioned that there's been a
37:21
Speaker 1: growth in matchmaking, and after you said that, I started
37:24
Speaker 1: to see that in a long places. So I do
37:26
Speaker 1: want to come back and look at that.
37:27
Speaker 2: Yes, I think it's fascinating. Like again, I've realized different
37:33
Speaker 2: cultures still use matchmaking and have used it for a
37:36
Speaker 2: long time. I know South Korea actually does. It is
37:40
Speaker 2: a big industry and I didn't know this un till later.
37:43
Speaker 2: I thought that was a K drama thing. But I
37:47
Speaker 2: mean again, I think that there's this conversation of like
37:51
Speaker 2: matching in the socioeconomic status wise, so they have this
37:56
Speaker 2: level of matching. Again, I feel like that's so outdated
38:00
Speaker 2: but I'm not rich, and no one tried to set
38:02
Speaker 2: me up with a rich person, So maybe that's why
38:05
Speaker 2: I didn't know about it. Personal experience does not apply here.
38:10
Speaker 1: Right, Right, That's why I'm interested in it because I've
38:13
Speaker 1: only heard about it in usually rich circles, right, But
38:21
Speaker 1: I did see it come up in a lot of
38:23
Speaker 1: articles that we're talking about. People are tired of online dating.
38:27
Speaker 1: They're turning to matchmakers. So I would love if any
38:31
Speaker 1: listeners is willing to share stories. Yeah, I would love
38:34
Speaker 1: to know more about it, because I mean, that's truly.
38:37
Speaker 1: The sad thing about a lot of this is I
38:40
Speaker 1: have so many friends who want to find that person, right,
38:44
Speaker 1: and they're doing they're doing the thing. And for a
38:48
Speaker 1: lot of people, online dating is very convenient, but it
38:52
Speaker 1: comes with this risk. It comes like all dating does.
38:55
Speaker 1: But it to me, like hearing those numbers and hearing
38:58
Speaker 1: some of the stories my friends have told me, I
39:01
Speaker 1: just hate that it comes with this risk.
39:04
Speaker 3: Right.
39:04
Speaker 1: But you're just trying to find like happiness and someone
39:07
Speaker 1: to have companionship with in one and ten you might
39:10
Speaker 1: get threatened with violence, that's right.
39:14
Speaker 2: That's that's a fifty to fifty chance that you're going
39:16
Speaker 2: to get dick pic. Yeah, that's actually harassed and that
39:21
Speaker 2: you're going to be stopped like this. These are not
39:24
Speaker 2: good numbers.
39:24
Speaker 1: No, And it makes me so mad when like usually
39:28
Speaker 1: men get mad and they're like women won't they never
39:33
Speaker 1: come out and day it won't do this? Why here
39:37
Speaker 1: you go?
39:38
Speaker 3: You're the prime example. Again. I still go back to
39:40
Speaker 3: that one.
39:41
Speaker 1: Dude.
39:41
Speaker 2: It was like, I know, girl, like you don't date
39:42
Speaker 2: me as is like opener and I was like what correct, well,
39:46
Speaker 2: all right, definitely not kind of define, not kind of
39:48
Speaker 2: respond black black block, right, I don't know why you're threatening.
39:53
Speaker 3: Me, like it's gonna be like, oh, he's so attractive.
39:57
Speaker 2: I love when they're automatically mad at me for existing.
39:59
Speaker 3: Right. I didn't solicit solicit this, none of this. I
40:04
Speaker 3: didn't say hey to you, I cruise by. I don't know.
40:07
Speaker 1: I mean once again, like with said normal interaction, you
40:13
Speaker 1: would at least like hey, right, it's it's upsetting and baffling.
40:22
Speaker 2: That's upsetting, yes, and it's worse when companies don't recognize
40:26
Speaker 2: that this can be upsetting.
40:27
Speaker 3: Yeah.
40:29
Speaker 1: It's very limited, a very limited view that was on
40:33
Speaker 1: display with this advertising campaign, and it was not a
40:37
Speaker 1: good one.
40:38
Speaker 3: Nope, this was not this was not this was nice?
40:42
Speaker 3: Was hard? Not it? Well?
40:49
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