Latest / Caught on the Mike... / "A different kind of freedom.." with documentarian Jia Wertz

Transcript

"A different kind of freedom.." with documentarian Jia Wertz · Caught on the Mike...

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Warning due to some language and subject matter, listener discretion is advised.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Serial, making a murderer, the staircase.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Ever since Serial's debut in 2014, true crime documentaries and interest in true crime stories have been on the rise, and particularly stories that help exonerate those wrongly convicted for those crimes.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Following a long career in the fashion industry, my next guest went to the New York Film Academy and became one of these documentarians.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Conviction is her award-winning debut film and can now be found on Amazon Prime.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Joining me on the podcast today is Gia Wirtz.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: She is a featured writer for Forbes, founder and fashion designer of Studio 15, and through the passion of filmmaking, she is clearing a pathway to those deserving of exoneration by a flawed legal system.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Ladies and gentlemen, this is Caught on the Mic.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: GeoWertz, thank you for coming on the podcast today.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: It is an honor to interview you.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: I have watched your movie twice in this past week on Amazon Prime.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: And for those that have listened uh to the intro of this episode, the movie's called Conviction.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: It is on Amazon Prime.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's free to watch for Prime members right now.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: How are you today?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Hectic, but good.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Hectic.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Where are you uh where are you calling in from?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm calling right now from Calgary, Alberta, in Canada.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I live in New York normally.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here traveling because my dad got sick and some kind of uh yeah, some kind of uprooted from my house and stuff.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: So everything's a little bit hectic right now.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I uh best wishes to to your father.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um thank you.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and good for you, good for you.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Family always comes first above anything else.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I don't want to waste any time.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and kind of tell your origin story, how you went from point A to point B and the career shift in between?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I had about a 20-year career in the fashion industry.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: When I was like 18 or so, I started working in fashion and loved it.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: I used to think that I have hit the jackpot because it was like I would do this for free and I'm getting paid to do it.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: What a wonderful job.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I got in my mid-30s, uh it just became not really fulfilling.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I decided, um, not even decided, I just felt that I didn't really love what I was doing anymore.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it felt like I worked 60 hours a week or more at all making money for large corporations.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, you know, is this really fulfilling anything for me?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, what clothes people wear or what cells I didn't really care about anymore.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd always wanted to do something um to help people who've been wrongfully convicted.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: I was really passionate about this uh ever since I read a book when I was like 20 years old called uh The 16th Round by Ruben Carter and uh watched the movie The Hurricane with Dendra Washington based on that book.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it just, you know, pulls at your heartstrings.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, how can this be happening to just an innocent person who was going about their life and now all of a sudden they're thrown in a max security prison for a crime they didn't commit, fighting for their freedom?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: It just seemed crazy to me at a young age.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so stuck with me.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I was having these thoughts about switching careers, uh, the podcast serial came out.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: It was 2014, and serial came out, and it was a very similar feeling I had and a very similar kind of wrongful conviction story about Adnan Sayed, very similar to what I felt when I had read Ruben Carter's book.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that combined with what I was already thinking about my job, I thought, you know, I'm going to uh try and do something to help Adnan's case.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I organized a fundraiser in New York.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: That was the first thing that I did.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just a local, you know, bands playing music.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: I made these free Adnan shirts because I owned a fashion brand at the time and I had access to doing that kind of stuff and raised a decent amount of money, a few thousand dollars that night, and we donated it.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: And from that point forward, I kept thinking, you know, what more can I do?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can donate a little bit of money or a little bit of time, but that doesn't really move the needle for anything major, right?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: It barely helped a non, probably, let alone anything for the cause.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was thinking about that.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: And when I was organizing the fundraiser, my girlfriend who I was organizing it with said, I know a guy who's been through a really similar story.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to meet him?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: He could be a speaker for our event.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Yeah, absolutely.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so she introduced me to Jeff.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how I met Jeff, who's the subject of my film.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we kept in contact after that fundraiser for a few years.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually met him for coffee once and picked his brain a little bit and was like, for someone who's been through something like this, who's been on the other side, who's been wrongfully convicted, what can somebody like me do that would be most helpful to somebody that was in your position?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we talked a lot about going to law school or starting a podcast and all kinds of things.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: And he said it would take too long to make a podcast, like to monetize it and to get to the point where it actually helping people in his position.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: And uh law school was obviously a good option, but I I hate to say this, but I went to a non-science post-conviction hearing.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: And what I saw at that post-conviction hearing with what was going on with the prosecutor made me really, really not want to be a lawyer because I know my temperament and I wouldn't be able to be on the other side arguing with him.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was kind of out the window for me.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And at that same post-conviction hearing, there was a camera crew and they were filming.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the family ended up telling us that that camera crew was filming the documentary for HBO called The Case Against a Non-Zion.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that really got like my head spinning because I've been a photographer for 20 years.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: I know my way around a camera.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, hey, there's three, which is so naive, but I was like, there's three people making an HBO doc.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I got this.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go home and I'm gonna make a documentary.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that's what triggered me to enroll into New York Film Academy, and that's how I ended up switching careers to go into filmmaking.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: So you've become familiar with uh Adnan Sayed's family then.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, I know them really well.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: I've known them ever since uh 2015, I think, or so.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, fantastic! Yeah, fantastic.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is kind of what has inspired this pathway for you.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: And is it like strictly true crime and exoneration stories that you're hoping to pursue as a filmmaker?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's all I want to do right now.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the sole reason I switched careers was because I wanted to tell stories and help people who've been wrongfully convicted.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: So movies just take so much money and so much time to make that while I have so many interests and I love to do other types of films, I just don't uh want to devote that amount of time and money to something else when I could be telling someone's story who who really needs it, something I'm passionate about, you know?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that was kind of the uh kind of kind of the perfect storm of 2014 to 2016, because serial came out, then making a murderer came out, and then the staircase came out, and like Netflix all of a sudden had this big boon of documentaries that we've all watched and we've all been glued to.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: What's something creatively that you look at in creating content along those lines?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what what do you what do you kind of view as your your steps or your storyline beats?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: What do you what do you want to capture initially whenever you're interviewing for somebody for something like this?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so I have always I was a photographer for 20 years.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: I did it, you know, a little bit for work and then mostly just for fun.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the thing I've always loved photographing the most was people.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so I said this to my husband when I came home after my first day shooting the documentary.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: I said, I haven't felt this passionate about something since the first day I picked up a camera to do a photo shoot.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: And the first day that I did my video shoot with Jeff, I felt that same kind of rush of like I'm in the right place at the right time, and I just love everything about this.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: My favorite part creatively is really shooting people and is like capturing their emotion and asking them the right interview questions for them to really open up to you and be honest and raw and authentic, and capturing that on video is just is just amazing from everything, from themselves and their their mannerisms and their body language and like the little details of how they're telling the story, that really intrigues me.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: And uh creatively I love capturing that kind of stuff.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: But then also on the flip side, I love shooting B-roll because that's like kind of the free reign.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's like kind of doing photography, you know.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: You can go shoot whatever you think kind of fits.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's like painting a picture, you know.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's really fun, yeah.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's kind of setting the mood.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: So speaking of the subject of your documentary, Jeff, man, is he not the most tender guy on film?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I my heart broke for him, like immediately.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was I I couldn't I couldn't envision how he would have been, um, how how they would have classified him in the jump.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: I just I just don't see it as a viewer.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you can see guilt, can't you?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Or innocence to a certain degree.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I could see the guy's innocence just listening to him talk about it.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's so interesting that you say that because I wholeheartedly agree.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a couple of things like I think in a lot of cases, prosecutors, detectives, they get tunnel vision, and that's what happened in this case.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I hate to say also, they had to have known that he was innocent because they coerced a confession out of him, they fed details of the crime.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: If you were really trying to solve the case, you wouldn't be feeding details to somebody that they don't already have, because that would be kind of sullying your own investigation.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, they they knew what they were doing.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: They probably did see that he was innocent, but they they didn't care.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: They wanted to solve their case.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it's so interesting with Jeff's case, because I say this all the time.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: One of the factors that led to Jeff being wrongfully convicted, and the initial thing, uh, two things that turned the cops' attention onto Jeff were that students at his school, and mind you, he was 16, and students at his school said he was quiet and awkward or strange.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's crazy to think that another 16-year-old's opinion on whether you're weird or not, or strange or not, could could turn a preseason detective's attention onto you.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: That just is bizarre to me.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the second thing was that he was really emotional, he was crying at Angela's wake.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And um, the detectives were at the wake, and they thought that him crying was him like having remorse or feeling guilty for what he did.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why he was overly emotional because he didn't really know Angela.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: He knew her as an acquaintance and had only talked to her a couple of times.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And when I look back at it, it's like I look at it like Jeff was an extra sensitive person, somebody who was brought to tears over the death of somebody you barely know.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's somebody who's really empathetic, somebody who's, you know, just a soft-hearted person.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then for that soft-hearted person to be thrown into a max security adult male prison at the age of 16, like how do you even fare well in that scenario?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're already a softer-hearted person.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's just so terrible.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: For those of us that have been following like the making of murder, the Stephen Avery, Brendan Dassey case, because you see Brendan Dassey get coerced on film, yes, how those interrogations can go south real quick, kind of the the breaking them down to build them right back up.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I that was something that was constantly running through my head while I was watching your documentaries.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was kind of, you know, going back to that one and and referencing scenes from that one.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of how I was relating the two.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's heartbreaking.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: How important is the role as a as a filmmaker?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: How important is the role of bias versus non-bias whenever you're making a film like this?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Or you're you're creating uh a narrative to help exonerate somebody?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, it's really important and there's bias in every single film ever made and every single interview ever done, right?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's the opinion of the person that's making it or the outlook uh going in, right?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: You have some opinion on what you're on what you're filming.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so that's a that's a really tough thing to to navigate, I find.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even from uh like in in my documentary, for instance, there was you know the dilemma of including any more information about the crime scene and whatnot of Angela's murder.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: And her family doesn't want to talk about it.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um they I didn't reach out to them, but Jeff was in touch with them for quite some time.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: And they actually told Jeff at one point that while they wished him well and they had had him over for dinner, I mean, they really they knew he was innocent.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: They felt really bad that he was another victim in this scenario.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but after some years, they said, you know, we wish you well and you know, all the best, but we don't want to be in contact because contact with you is a constant reminder of the worst time of our life, you know, which is completely understandable.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's all kinds of things that you come across, like should should we include anything else about her death?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: And you uh for me, I thought no, I would only include it if her family gave their blessing.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: And since we're not talking to them, then no, we won't.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it was strictly a movie about Jeff and it didn't include Angela.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there's all these kinds of things, all these decisions you have to make, and all of it is kind of uh under the umbrella of your opinion and your views and your ethics, and you're you know, it's really interesting question.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: So and the reason I kind of teed that question up is um pardon me if I I keep making this reference, but you follow the making a murder case, the the Stephen Avery case.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: I love making a murder, it's so good.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to, I don't want to get us totally nerding out on that, but did you ever have points when you were watching that show where your opinion was flipping back and forth?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, many times.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so do you think that that was because of the oversharing of content or the oversensationalizing of the content um within that show?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Or what what was what was the catalyst for you?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because I have opinions on it too, but I'm really interested to get your vantage point as somebody that's you know kind of kind of treading the waters of it, if you will.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I don't know if it was either of those things for me.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: For me, the the the biggest thing was, you know, oh, there was blood on the near the key ignition and things like that, you know, and you don't want to believe that the legal system is corrupt, you don't want to believe that the the entities you believe in to keep us safe and everything is not really what it seems.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: So you're inclined to think, okay, if there was blood there, then maybe he did do it, or how else did it get there, and all these kinds of things.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's hard to reconcile that the the legal system, the detectives, the prosecutors that you want to believe in, um maybe are the ones that are committing the crime.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really tough thing.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, that's what it was.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, are they really that corrupt?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Could this really happen, or did he really do it?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what kept taking me back and forth.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I kind of share the sentiment that if you believe in a conspiracy, you've never had to manage more than 10 people at once.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because somebody's gonna spill the beans at some point, you know.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I've always kind of gone back and forth with that particular one.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've landed on a place where I'm fairly certain that Dassey was innocent.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still on the fence as far as Stephen Avery goes.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I definitely think that the the police system, you know, was definitely corrupt to a certain degree, but to what extent, I don't know.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: So have you also watched the staircase as well?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: I did, yes.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, what did you think of that one?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that one was great.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, as far as from a filmmaking perspective, there was a little, it was a little too long and it got a little slow in the middle, right?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, yes.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, did you know that the staircase I think aired way long ago, years ago, on TV?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why it was such a weird um airing on Netflix or wherever it was, because the first like six or eight episodes were from a TV special from decades ago, and then the last six or eight episodes were made now, and then they were put together today.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: So crazy.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why you could even tell with the with the quality of the filming.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: It was like all of a sudden there was like really good quality footage and then not so good quality footage.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it was kind of a strange the storytelling was a little bit strange in it.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: However, once it ended, uh as all of us armchair detectives do, I Googled everything that there is to Google about the staircase and then learned about this whole owl theory.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know about this?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yeah.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: What's hilarious is my wife will give me shit for days because I will we'll watch a show together and I'll sit and I'll be on my little Google machine Googling things.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, maybe it's this.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: And she goes, That's not a theory, you're sitting there googling it.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's me.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: I am you in in my relationship.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah, the whole owl theory that is the weirdest thing I've heard of.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the weird thing is is that there's evidence to support it.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: There is, there is, which is so bizarre.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: So coming full circle and going back to your documentary.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, did I hear correctly?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Are you working on a long form version of it?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: What's on the plate right now for you?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm actually almost finished the long form version of it.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the feature-length film of Jeff's story.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's about an hour and a half long.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and Jeff's uh the short conviction that's on Amazon Prime now, it really touches on Jeff's personal struggles and what he went through.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like what I really wanted to convey is how an innocent person deals with this and then reintegrates into society and and how that impacts the rest of their life.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the feature-length film goes much deeper into uh not only the like the shortcomings of the justice system, but in Jeff's particular situation, there was DNA evidence.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: And they, the the DA in Westchester at the time, denied um the testing of that DNA.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Had they allowed the testing, Jeff would have been out of prison 10 years earlier.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And he served almost these 16 to 17 years.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: So 10 years would have been huge for him.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why wasn't the DNA allowed to be tested when it's sitting there?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: And um also, why do people confess to crimes they didn't commit?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's the psychology behind that.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been really interesting.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: The the feature length is really interesting because I got to talk to a lot of people in the Innocence Project.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Jeff's lawyer, who he mentions in the short that he says, you know, this woman walked in, I didn't recognize her, and it just kind of said hi.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, her, I interviewed her, Nina Morris.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: And there's so many interesting people that have done just such amazing work.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so it's a really interesting, it was a really interesting process, I gotta say, to make the film.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that really struck me about his story is when he talked about, you know, getting out of jail at what, 45 years old, and how he was exploring the world as if he was a young 20-something again, because he'd had that taken away from his life.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's it's one of those things you don't think about, it's not at the front of your mind, yes, whenever you're considering things like this, is how much development we all go through, our different seasons of life that we all go through that we take for granted.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, man, that that one that one almost hurt me.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, well, it did hurt me.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: I know, I know.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: When I, you know, when I interviewed Jeff at that exact scene you're talking about, you know, he got out in mid-30s, but I interviewed him when he was mid-40s.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: So he was saying, you know, I'm 45 now, but I feel like I'm you know 25.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that scene where he says, I just want to, you know, go to amusement parks or play ball, and there's nobody that wants to do that at my age.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I felt the same way as you.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it really, it really hit home and it right really hurt for him.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I came home and I told my husband, he was like, I'll play ball with him.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, Yes, can you please?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because like you love to play ball and you're his age.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: And like, yeah, yeah.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh as as 40-somethings ourselves, we kind of you we start to really come to terms with mortality and thinking about mortality.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: And when somebody points out like how valuable youth is in a moment like that, it's it's just it's oh yeah, it's shattering.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And Jeff, you know, it's really interesting because um I interviewed his his best friend Nancy and you know, other people in his life.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: And when I'm with Jeff, and it's like work, work, work, because we're filming and we're working on documentary, and anytime we talk, it's you know, related to somebody else's case and things like that.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's always work-related.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: And Jeff is very businesslike and you know, very matter-of-fact and really on top of it.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: But other people who know him in his personal life, like his best friend, she said he is like an overgrown child.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, he stopped at 16.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, he is just a goofball, he's like a 16-year-old trapped in a 45-year-old's body.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think it's very true.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like Jeff will he he's obviously very, a very capable person, obviously.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he can do the work that needs to get done nine to five, but inside he's still that that kid that never got to do all the things that you do at that age.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: And all the years lost, I think, is are still, you know, in him, you know, in a way.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And spoiler alert, he is a lawyer now.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and he's looking to help people overturn.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Wrongful convictions himself, yes, and he has so many.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's amazing.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing, that is amazing, and I and and I think he also helped change the law in Connecticut with the death penalty as well to abolish the death penalty.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: That is amazing.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: That is amazing.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, he works tirelessly on this.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, does it in the film, but it's so true, like he has this clear-cut mission, and he like nothing is gonna get in his way.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, how much more work needs to be done with the uh with the feature length?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, the funny thing is it would have been done already, except for COVID, of course.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we have that's a story about everything now.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: I know we have two shoots left.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: We have one uh woman we want to interview in Colorado, and she is the person who initially Jeff was when he was stuck in prison, he was just writing letters to anybody who would listen to try and you know get help.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the one woman who ended up getting his letter actually forwarded to her from someone she knew Jeff never even wrote to her.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody that he wrote to sent it to her.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: She's the one who advised him to go to Innocence Project.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: So she kind of got the ball rolling.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: I her, I need to interview her, and she's a key person, and so I'm waiting until I can travel there.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then the second shoot that we have to do is inside prisons, and the prisons got completely shut down, even for visitors for inmates.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, let alone journalists and filmmakers, they're not letting anyone in.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the two shoots I'm waiting on.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, um, it's pretty much finished, and we just need to do these interviews and finish the last little bit of editing, and then we can release it.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I can't wait.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: If I could remove all the barriers and constraints, what is your dream project and what is the type of project you want to be known for?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, my dream project would be to work on a documentary on Adnan's case and figure out who the hell did this so he can get out of it.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's like would would be my dream project, it'd be my dream goal as well.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what was your second part of that question?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Remind me.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: You kind of answered it.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: You said you said your dream project would be to work on ad non's case, and that would you'd be known for that.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's what would you want to be known for?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of like what's your legacy?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: What is your legacy project?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you answered that.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I mean, that would be a dream one, but you know, I think Rabia's got that covered and she's working on it.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, Rabia Chadri, who's the advocate who brought uh the case to serial.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, besides that, I mean, my ultimate goal is to work on somebody's case or tell the story of somebody who's currently incarcerated, so we can help either uncover some facts or at least give them a voice back to tell their side of the story so I can help somebody who who really needs it, who's incarcerated um wrongfully.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's like the ultimate goal.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: But Anand's case just really uh really hits close to home for me because I know his mom now and she's just the sweetest person ever.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, so it really, really uh strikes a chord.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm sure in doing research for these projects, you've kind of uncovered a treasure trove of potential wrongful conviction cases.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Through Jeff, really.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he works on so many cases, so he knows so many people in that position.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: So being New York based, like are most of his cases centered around New York area or around, you know, um the uh the northeast or you know, they're everywhere.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you remember the scene in the film where it's just a filing cabinet of names.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of endless filing cabinets at Jeff's office, and those are all cases of all the people who have written to his organization asking for help.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: So they're everywhere, and it's so sad because you know, he can only take on as many as he can handle.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: And but there's just so many they're everywhere.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, how has your life changed since putting this out in the ether?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's been awesome, it's been really, really awesome.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: One, you know, I was debating what I wanted to do, and now I know what I want to do, and I'm doing it, so it's fantastic.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, two, I'm crazy busy all of the time.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: I also have a three-year-old son.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like I made this film with a one-year-old at home, and it was really, really hectic.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: I actually went to film when I got into New York Film Academy.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: The department head of the documentary um department said to me, She's like, You have a one-year-old at home?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, No one has ever done this with well.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, Are you crazy?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, What's she talking about?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: This will be fine.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it was, it was a lot.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh yeah, my time is definitely really split up and things can get really hectic.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I love every second of it.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, when you're doing something you love, it never feels like you're working, kind of thing, you know.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are some other projects you've been doing?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: You are also a contributor of Forbes magazine, correct?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yep.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: I've written for Forbes for a few years.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: You recently did uh a breakdown of America's obsession with true crime documentaries, correct?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, on the list for the on the list, that's it.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us a little bit about how that opportunity came about.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, so that opportunity came about when I took this PR course and and uh the opportunity came through that course, honestly.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the people teaching the course uh introduced us to the producers of the list, and that's where it came about.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then I pitched them this idea because I found this fascinating.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: I read a New York Times article and it talked about why women are so obsessed with true crime, and I am that person.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so as I was reading that article, uh I was like, they this is me.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: They just wrote about me in this article, you know, and I found it really fascinating.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: But all the reasons that they said that women are so fascinated with true crime were all the reasons that I have been, but I hadn't quite articulated it in my mind.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: I had wondered why I'm so drawn to true crime because it's a weird thing to like, you know, for sure.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I had also uh it scares the crap out of me and I can't sleep at night.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, why do I like this so much?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then I can't sleep at night.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why am I watching this all the time and scaring the crap out of myself?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: The article talked about how women um watch it.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I ended up doing a bunch of other research after reading this article.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't all in this one piece, but it did talk about how women often watch true crime so that they can learn from them and so that they know uh tactics to escape if you're ever in this position, or you learn uh what to avoid, like parking lots at nighttime or jogging in the park at night.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: And for it's so funny because I remember the Central Park jogger case back in whenever that was in the 90s, 80s.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure when that happened.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I never forgot it.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: I never jogged in a park in my entire lifetime because I was so terrified from that one story.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just when I read this article, I was like, this makes so much sense.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: It answers all the questions I've had about why do I like true crime so much, and it really is all of those reasons.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so, anyways, I pitched the list this idea of you know, talking about why women love true crime so much and the producers there loved it, and we ended up doing that segment that you that's amazing.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: That is amazing, that's amazing.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, so the psychology really is protective in nature, is it?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's uh one if you're ever you if you're ever in the scenario, what do you do to escape?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's hilarious.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: I once watched, and it was on some true crime show that if someone ever puts you in the trunk of a car, you can kick out the tail lights from the inside of the trunk, and then you can stick your arm or your leg out.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, anyone driving behind a car with a leg sticking out of it is gonna be like, what is going on in here?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I maybe saw that on a true crime show 20 years ago and maybe more, maybe 25 years, and never have forgotten it.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just so funny that these are the types of things that you know stick with you from these shows.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, how much of our obsession with this um also comes from just kind of the adrenaline rush of being scared or getting to play detective ourselves and kind of draw our own conclusions to a certain degree?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's definitely the other side of it.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: The psychology of there's a shock factor of this really happens in real life?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how did this even come about?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's that, and then there's the armchair detectives, which you know everybody has become now.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the whole Reddit world and and everything else.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're sitting at home and you think I can solve this case, right?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: Which I have thought about every case I've ever seen on a blue.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: So is there a certain type of true crime documentary or podcast that you just can't listen to?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: I hate the ones that are super sensationalized because I just don't understand why that happens.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: The stories are already so bizarre and so shocking.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't understand why anybody needs to sensationalize them any further.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing that just drives me crazy that I don't really like to watch is when documentary filmmakers put themselves into the film.
• 30:47
  unknown: Yeah.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's like a film about them making the film, but it's really about the the it to me, it just takes away from it's about what happened and the crime.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you weren't part of that story.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't need to be part of the story about you making the film about this.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so those drive me a little bit crazy.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: That drove me crazy in the jinx.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: And did you watch the jinx?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: No, I have not yet.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness, you have to watch the jinx.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not even gonna say another word because I'm gonna check it out now.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh now, I'm gonna watch it.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta that the only thing that drove me crazy was that the filmmakers were in the film, but the end of the jinx is like nothing I've ever seen before.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: That last the last episode and last scene is just you're beside yourself.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: I can't watch anything, any crimes that involve kids, like that one.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm instantly, I'm out, I'm out.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's weird.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's the parent inside of me that's just like like probably wouldn't have bugged me in my 20s and early 30s, but the minute I became a parent, those things I'm really, really, really uber sensitive to now.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't agree with you more.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, there's it's just crazy.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: What is that one?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: The American uh that guy who killed his two girls and his wife, yes, yes, the American something.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we watched that one, and like uh my wife and I watched that one, and I was just like kind of enraged.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: I had to go in the other room and throw on some headphones afterwards, and just like I need to like sanitize my mind after watching that to a certain extent.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: I followed that story in the news when it happened, but I have not been able to watch the show.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: I just can't do it, I just can't.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: And there's another one on Netflix, um, too, about a little boy, and uh I forget the name of that one too, but I I can't I can't watch those at all.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I kind of I kind of suspected that was the case.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's just too cruel, yeah.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I kind of asked this already, but I'm gonna ask this again.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: What is next for you?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I I really want to wrap up this feature length doc and finish it.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: I hate sitting on it at the finishing stages.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next one, the next story I want to work on is one of someone who is currently incarcerated.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's that is the story I want to tell.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm trying to figure out um which one that's gonna be.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: I have a couple people in mind and a couple uh stories I've started to write.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm debating uh which one to move forward with next.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: But that's what I want to definitely do next.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: The story of someone who's currently incarcerated.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh, it's been a pleasure talking to you.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Anything else you want to plug before we uh before we say goodbye?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think you know, you already told everyone the film's on Amazon Prime, and I so appreciate you watching it twice.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's so awesome.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well man, I was looking forward to this.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was really, really looking forward to this.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: I enjoyed it the first time I watched it.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like I I told you before we pressed record.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'd gone through and I'd listened to a couple other podcasts that you had been on.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, you've made a fan out of me, and I look forward to maybe talking to you again in the future.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would love to talk to you.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and likewise, I was a fan of you ever since I saw your you know podcast video about being on your podcast.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Once again, I want to give a big thanks to GeoWortz for being on the podcast today.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was an honor to get to interviewer, and I am looking forward to what is coming next.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: To those of you that have been following along with my recent sob stories, I finally got my ass back in the gym this week.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: And after two days, it's kind of crazy how I feel like I've come back to life, but that's routines, right?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of routines, I am gonna routinely ask all of you to please give a five-star review on Apple Podcasts app or any podcast app that will allow you to leave reviews.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: Also, if you could be so kind, leave a few comments.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: The feedback is much appreciated, and all reviews help circulate episodes of this podcast.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Also, please search me out on social media, Instagram, Facebook, or TikTok, and share some of it.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Let's introduce some new friends to Caught on the Mike.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: This has been Caught on the Mic with Michael Clark.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Michael Clark.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, thank you.