Latest / Michelle Explains Anime, Poorly / Banana Fish- Final Discussion (This is it, I promise!)

Transcript

Banana Fish- Final Discussion (This is it, I promise!) · Michelle Explains Anime, Poorly

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey it's Michelle. Oh god, hey it's your person Michelle,
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: who doesn't know what to say anymore because I'm all
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: stressed out. But yeah, so this is a weird episode.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: I'm with my friend Enrique Kuto, who can say anything
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: if he wants.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that, You're why are you nervous? We're not, Like,
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: it's not like we haven't literally done this before.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: I know, but I don't, like I have to like
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: take the reins this time, and I don't know how
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: to do that fair fair enough, Like I already just
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: want to stop talking and let you do take over.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: So but this is your show, kid, I can't help you.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: So yeah. So anyway, you also have another show that
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: you do called Weekly Spooky and Stuff, and we we
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: actually like once a month talk on that as well.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: We do a monthly spooky breakdown of like kind of
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: weird news and things.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: We do most mostly news and then also.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Things, yeah things, So so yeah, we we do normally
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: we do something like this, but not about anime and
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: not on my show. So it's a little bit nerve
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: wracking because I don't know what I'm doing. And also
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: I want to apologize in advance because like when I
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: talk on the show, I edit it so you don't
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: hear all the times that I like stutter and say,
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: and to at least most of them, so I might
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: not do that here. So I'm sorry that you have
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: to find out like this.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: But this is the See a Hell of a Drug.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, anyway, we're gonna, I guess talk about
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: just Banana Fish kind of in general instead of like
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: the episodically like I've been doing. But Enrique here because
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: I kind of forced him to watch it kind I
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: kind of like really bothered you about it until you
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: felt bad, I think, and watched it.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: No. You you recommended it to me, and I've watched
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: several anime that you recommended to me. I probably would
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: have almost no anime experience without your recommendations.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sorry you would be there for it, but.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: No, no, you It's it's rare that you are so
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: adamant about an anime. I mean, I mean you have been.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: There's no doubt you have several that you really love,
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: but you were just yeah, you were like out of
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: you were like unhinged about this one in particular.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but then it's like embarrassing because it had
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: to be this one. I guess sorry, everyone who likes this, sorry.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean there's a good chance they've listened to
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: you talk about it for like wenty four plus episodes. Yeah,
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: I guess like they probably like it.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Well. Either that or they just think it's real good
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: to make fun of me.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: That's a lot of commitment.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, I would I would think that that's pretty
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: impressive of them, if that's that's how they want to
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: do this.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, if you think that you're so cringe, like,
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: you're so special that you're worth that much hate listening,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: fair enough. No, but yeah, I mean I just don't know.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: I guess I thought you were a little more average,
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: which I apologized that was rude. No, you're right, you are.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: You're very impressive.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: I'm not that impressive. Fine, nobody's listening at all, don't worry, huh.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: But no, you you brought up banana fish, and I
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: was it was like a really bad time when you
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, I mean when you suggested it, because I
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: was in the middle of a move, so I ended
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: up well. And and this is old school anime, like
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: when You Show Me, although anime kind of follows like
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: the old school television rules, like they're more likely to
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: have like more than ten episodes or more than eight
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: episodes compared to like kind of the more modern television rules,
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: which are like eight twelve, right something like that. Well yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry, Oh,
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: I was just gonna say, it's it's so like I
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: want to watch these, but sometimes I'll be like, damn,
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: twenty four episodes, like this is old school, you know. Yeah,
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: so it takes a little while to get through them.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and that's understandable, even though they
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: were all only twenty two minutes except for the last
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: one that was thirty one.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: So no, that's true, and that's a fair point though
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: that even evens it out quite a bit.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, I mean with anime right now, it's
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: either I mean, it used to be that all anime
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: was just like twenty four twenty six episodes, and then
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: I don't know when it's shifted, but now it's like
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: most of them are twelve eleven to thirteen, and then
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: sometimes they I have a second core, and then they
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: then they were twenty four to twenty six.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, Like how in America they're big on the
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: mid season finale, which is just two seasons. Yeah, that
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: drives me insane. They'll be like, oh, well, we're splitting
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: season season six into two seasons, so it's season six
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: part one and season six part two. It's like, no,
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: that season six and seven exactly. How you don't take
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: seven months off and say it's still the same season.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I don't appreciate that.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean at least with anime, it's like
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: like with Banana Fish specifically, they were two consecutive cores,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: so it was just like the first core ended and
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: then next week is the next core.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Yay, So it's even more useless, like.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Yay exactly exactly. But then there are things like we're
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: gonna be covering eighty six that took like a I
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: think it took like a season off in between. So
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: that's more like the mid season finale thing.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I remember they started that with Breaking Ad
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: because they had eight episodes ended on a cliffhanger and
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: then took like months and months off, so it was
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: like and now the mid season finale of Breaking Bad,
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: and I remember sitting on my couch and going, what
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: the hell does that mean? The mid season finale? So anyway,
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: but yeah, I'm a binger though I generally like to
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: binge shows, and I think most people do. But but
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: but yeah, so, like I was, I would get like
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: really into Banana Fish, and then I'd fall out for
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: a minute, and then I'd get back into watching a
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: bunch of episodes all at once, and then I'd fall out.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: And then I came to see you around Christmas time
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: and we watched what four episodes? Five episodes?
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Four episodes?
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, four episodes, yeah, I mean really until you decided
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: to be sick and not able to watch more, which
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: was very rude, but I understand that's just what you
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: wanted to do at that time.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so thank you for not shaming me for
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: wanting to be sick, because.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: No, I can appreciate your your your choices in life.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: So yeah, so we watched like all but like the
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: last I think four or five. I think we had
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: like five episodes left when I left Philly.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe we did, so it was episodes, so we
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: got seventeen eighteen, nineteen twenty, so yeah with the last
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: four five is that? How?
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: No, something like that? Four four So and then we
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: were and then we decided to watch them together. But uh,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: but Amazon Prime was not playing very nice with two seven,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: the app we were using to watch stuff together. It
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: played fine with crunchy role for the most part, and
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: stuff like that that we've used in the past.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm wondering now, maybe this is just a new thing.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: It's just gonna suck all the time.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: Well, Amazon Prime is a very different tech than most streamers. Like, yeah,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: I don't want to bore people with details, but like
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: I feel like the way that he uses Prime is
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: way different. So but it might be it might just
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: be that the this is terrible and everything's terrible. I
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: know that's what you're hoping for. But so I'm excited
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: because Banana Fish is a very unusual show in a
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: lot of ways, or at least I pray it's unusual,
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: because Japan just never ceases to confuse and mortify me sometimes.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I did enjoy the hell out of it.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: I really did. I think that it had really good characters.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: I do think that. The only thing is I think
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: it's like the the the romance. I'm putting quotes because
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: it really is, like we don't know, like it could
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: be a sort of romance or it could be a
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: literal we don't get to explore that in the actual show.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: I actually think is very kind of a common tragic
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: romance of loving the bad boy and then the bad
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: boy brings bad things. But that's but that's the broad
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: stroke of their love, of their of their arc. Not
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: the details are what's more interesting in Banana Fish. So
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: that's what my thought is anyway, Okay, But I find
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: it fun talking about this with you because we have
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: a very different dichotomy when it comes to relationships and
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: things like that. We have a very different world worldview
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: is not even the right way to go. I don't
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: even know how you will you describe it. We're just
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: very different.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I guess you guess, Yeah, I guess.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: So, But yeah, I mean I did. I really enjoyed
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: the show, I do you know. It had some of
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: the things that I always have a problem with when
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: there's like a relatively kind character who falls in love
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: with like the person who's misunderstood but also bad, and
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: I mean it fell into some of those tropes a
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: little bit, mostly parts where I would just be like, age,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: why don't you just get out of here? Do you
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: not know that you can die? Do you not understand
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: that like, death is definitely a thing that could happen,
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: because yeah, Ash is like get away from me. But
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: also but also that's an adorable like teenage girl, like, oh,
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: he wants me to leave, but he doesn't want me
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: to leave. Like that's how I show I love him
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: as I don't leave. But at the same time, he
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: did love him and he did care about him. But
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: I do think Edgy is like he's really ignorant a
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: lot of the time.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: I mean I think I think you you really uh
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: think that ag is naive more than I do. I
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: mean I think he is. He's significantly more naive. He's
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: had significantly less life experience. Yeah, I mean so yeah,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: I mean definitely, But I do think he kind of
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: grasped what's going on. I mean, there's enough that's going
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: on in the series that he's in front of that
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: he's got to like kind of understand. I mean, there's
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: like a meet, there's an immediate death in episode one,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: there's one an episode to like, so he is around
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: like violence immediately. It's I mean, maybe he doesn't believe
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: that will happen to him, even.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Though well, that's just part of being young, is it not.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Gonna happen to me. No, I agree, But also the
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: show happens relatively quickly. I mean, like, what's the course
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: of events a month?
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: So this is the thing that is confusing that I
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: think the anime did really poorly, and I think a
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: kem Yoshida did a little bit better because you get
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: some timelines. It's over the course of like a year
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: and a half.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: Then I would say ag is probably not very smart. Yeah,
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: and not just naive, he's also kind of stupid. Well fine,
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: my assuming naivety was a kindness. No, I mean, there
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: are there are times when you just feel in you
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: that you're doing the right thing or that the person
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: is right, and you can't really explain it in real life,
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: and it's hard to get across in media the most.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: The best example will be Twilight, where especially if you
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: watch the movie Twilight, she's just in love with Edward
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: because she stares at him and thinks about how much
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: he loves him, and that's the entire how why they're
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: in love is that she's in love with him, like
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: that's but this is not like that. I just wanted
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: to pick on you a little bit, but okay, but no,
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: I mean I do think that Edgy thinks he can
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: make a difference, and he can, but I also but
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: I don't. I'd like to think he's ignorant to just
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: how likely it is he'll die horribly, because if he isn't,
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: then I don't know where he got this like courage ignorant,
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: like like courage, like need to die courage from him.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, to be fair, these are like youth gangs.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: So we have tons of kids who are put themselves
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: at risk, who are going to die. They just are.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but they also don't know any better. It's the
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: only world they know.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess. I mean, and the.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: Younger you are, the more you're cannon fodder for those
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: types of things. I mean, young men are used as
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: cannon fodder in all whether it's a war or you know,
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: violent organized crime, young men or who get pushed to
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: the front lines and willingly die because they don't really understand. Yeah,
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Edgie's also like the oldest one.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well yeah he is. Yeah.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: Well, but like a Japanese twenty two is like an
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: American fourteen and a half. So well, one thing I
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: do want to say that makes this show a little
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: more complicated to me is the fact that the manga
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: and the anime take place in totally different times lines. Yeah,
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: I mean time frames rather. That's something that I think
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: makes the anime a little off or clunky every now
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: and then, Yeah, because they'll they'll do something and I'll
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: be like, why that doesn't make very much sense. Like
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: also weird things like making Blanca former Spetsnaz instead of
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: former KGB when it would make more sense for him
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: to be former KGB. The further away from the collapse
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: of the Soviet Union we are, because there are rumors
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: the KGB like never disbanded, and there are rumors they
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: disbanded ten years after the fall of the Soviet Union,
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: but the spets Nas stopped when the Soviet Union didn't
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: have an army anymore. So he would have been out
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: of spetz Nas like twenty some years by the time
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: the anime was happening, Yeah, as opposed to what year
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: does the manga start or take five? Yeh, So I
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: mean the spets Nas would still exist to at least
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: to some extent. I'm not an expert on Soviet military,
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: but I do know that the Soviet Union kind of
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: sort of collapsed in the in the beginning of the nineties,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: So that does also throw things off a little bit,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Like I think that maybe Edgy in more modern times
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: would be more aware of the kind of things he
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: stumbles into in the anime sure as to where in
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: the manga it would make a lot more sense that
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: he's more ignorant to like the reality of New York City. Also,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: New York City was crime addled and starting to clean
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: up in the eighties as opposed to now where well
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: as opposed to when it took it was like twenty seventeen,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty eighteen, New York was still like really really
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: stupid safe.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: New York is still like really really stupid.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: Sa comparatively, Yes, But I'm just saying like they hadn't
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: even had a crime bump in like almost fifteen years
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: at that time. Yeah, that's all I'm saying. It was
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: a really good time for New York.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, And I agree with you about that. That's
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: that's kind of my biggest complaint with the anime is
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: updating the timeframe, because I think it just didn't work
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: to its advantage at all. And I do think a
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: lot of things made more sense in the eighties than
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: they do in twenty eighteen, especially like the crime and
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: just like the places that they're at also made more sense,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: like yeah, we still had like the mafia like really
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: in power in the eighties. Like there are places that
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: are in the setting that are kind of just taken
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: out of the anime because they're like, well that doesn't
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: really exist there anymore, that are like really important and
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: makes sense for crime related stuff, Like it just made
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: a little bit more sense.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Honestly, I don't understand why they would remove the eighties
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: setting when like eighties nostalgia is so hot right now
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: in media.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: I have honestly, I have no idea whose decision that was,
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: but it doesn't It just doesn't make any sense, especially
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: because then you have to come up with new ways
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: to do things when they're already laid out in the
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: manga they work so well.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: And to make it even more confusing, the manga was
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: published in the nineties or was it the two thousands?
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: When was the moment?
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: No, no, no no. The manga started from eighty five to ninety.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Four, Okay, Okay, that's why I had the two numbers.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: I got you, I got you. Okay, that makes sense.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: So I mean I don't know how much of New
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: York Akimi Yoshida experienced. I'd assume some, because it's not
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: It just wasn't as easy to go online and go like, well,
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: what's the thing in New York where all this stuff happens?
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: But it does.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: It does feel really eighties New York wise or seventies honestly.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: So, Yeah, probably learned a lot of it from Western films.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: I'm sure.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, I've i as I've experienced more anime with you.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: I'm a you know, gargantuan movie lover, and I've been
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: watching Japanese cinema my whole life, starting with Godzilla movies
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: when I was a little kid. So it was funny
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: watching more and more anime and going oh wow, and
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: even telling you, like, you should watch this movie that
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: I am positive this anime is entirely inspired by Yeah. So,
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: but that's the thing. You know, Western influences massive to
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: Eastern film and television and stuff like that. So I'm
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: sure that they watched Serpaco and Mean Streets and Taxi
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Driver and you know all of those. I was about
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: to say Teenage Meeting Ninja Turle's two Secret of the Ousee,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: but they probably didn't see that one because that was
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: a little later. But yeah, so I do think that
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: there's a bit of that which also gives it gives
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: New York City like a little bit of a childlike
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: wonder in not a bad way, you know, where it's
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: just kind of like wow, the big Apple, you know.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: So I don't know, but I do think that that
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: harms it a little bit, makes it a little less believable.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: But thank goodness, most of the point of this show
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: is to make you swoon over a blonde haired angel
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: and not really to pay attention to much of a story.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Oh what you think that's not?
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: Oh dude, is it?
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: What? Were you confused by the part where like everybody
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: says he's beautiful, like unprompted old, Okay.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, So that's something I wanted to talk to you
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: about because like I don't know, like because you're just
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: not you just don't know Shojo tropes. That is just
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: that's just the be shown in trope. It's like, if
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: you are watching Shojo, especially slightly older Showjo, maybe newer Showjo,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: I don't there's just like not a lot of good
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Shojo anime that comes out anymore. There's still manga, but
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: it's really hard to find show jo anime. Sorry everyone
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: if you know one and you want to tell me
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: about it. But uh, that is like a super normal
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: trope that like there's this be shown in character a
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: lot of the time. Like I'm thinking about Fritz Basket,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: one of the main characters. Everybody has a crush on him,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: like he's got like like white hair or gray hair,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: I don't know, but he's like, you know, it's this
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: is a normal part of these animes. So I understand that,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: Like the face that you're giving me right now means
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: you just totally don't buy it.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: Oh no, I believe you. No, I believe you. My
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: only problem is like to leave those tropes in but
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: also have a character that's basically sexually assaulted by almost
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: every human being that looks at him. Yeah, is uncomfortable.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah no, I I totally I totally agree.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's that's my only My only point is
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: just like it's a weird trope to have laid over
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: the top of this story about a young man who
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: is basically abused by almost every adult that comes in
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: contact with him, especially with the later the later manga.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: Uh you know entries where it was like like multiple
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: tutors and they all said the same thing that he
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: was coming on to them, yeah, which yeah, which didn't
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: make it. I don't know, because like I don't know
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: where they're getting tutors. It almost makes it almost gives
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: ash like a hypnotic element like that they might actually
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: believe Eve and they're wrong obviously, but they might actually
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: believe that he wants them because they're so madly in
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: love with him. Because the statistics are just too high.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, how do you find only I mean, how
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: do you find people that their job is tutoring kids
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: and they haven't apparently been good enough to not like
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: try to make a pass at any of the other kids, well.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: Well to play Devil's advocate, because I do agree with you.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: That's like probably out of out of those three side stories.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: That was like the one time I was like, come on, man, really,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: but we don't even know what they've done before. Like
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: fucking Dino hired Blanca to tutor him. He's not he
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: doesn't work with kids.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: Well, he didn't hire him to tutor him in mathematics
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: and you know, like an airspace engineering he hired him
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: to tutor him to be a killer.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: True, fine, Okay, well, well.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: But that's a good point too. I mean, Ifanka, although
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: I think it's questionable as to if Blanca and Ash
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: had any kind of a relationship that was inappropriate. I'm
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: a little less, I a little less think that after
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: the manga, but not that much less.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sorry, No, I was.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Just saying terrible things to hurt your feelings. I know,
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: I know, no, no, I but hiring Blanco was always
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: a really interesting choice from for for goal Zine. And
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: actually that was kind of a I called you after
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: I listened to the last rundown, And this is a
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: good segue into that. You mentioned the part about how
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: mad you were at Blanca for say, for like saying
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: I can't help you.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: I well, I mean in the context of the scenario,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: because we have to, we have to contextualize it, right,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Blanca is not a good guy. Yeah, he's He's murdered people,
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: very likely in cold blood. He does it for money,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: He does all these bad things. Just being the kind
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: of person Golezine would hire makes you probably a very
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: bad human being. Sure, So if we go by the
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: morality of who he is. The reason he's like I
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: can't help you to Ash is because he is. He
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: is fully aware of what Golezine is capable of. I
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: don't think he was saying that out of a morality
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: or out of a sense of like, this is just
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: the way. I think he literally. The fact that Golzine
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: would hire somebody as dangerous as Blanca to sit alone
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: with his concubine, protege, whatever, tells you that Golezine is
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: much more powerful than Blanca in every way. Yeah. And
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: I think that that's a really important element because that
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: doesn't just absolve to an extent. Again, we're talking about
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: really bad moral character people already. Yeah, that doesn't just
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: absolve Blanca of the sin of not offer to help Ash.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: That also tells you just how courageous and insane and
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: desperate Ash was when he decides to just stop Golesin himself. Yeah,
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: and I think that's and I think that's good. Though.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: I think that that makes that builds Ash up or
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: you know, makes him stupider, But no, I think it
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: builds him up because he's well, because he's from the beginning,
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: I knew he was a tragic hero like I knew
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: that immediately. Yeah, so it builds him up. I think that,
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: And that's why I was like, when you were getting
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: mad at Blanco, I was like, Blanca just knows what
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: would happen if you tried anything.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'll give you that.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: That's just my thought.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: No, No, I mean I think you're I mean, I
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: don't think you're wrong at all. I just I think
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: from I was just hitting from like a super morality
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: point of view. Sure you know, but yeah, I mean
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: he's not a good person. He's obviously you know, working
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: for goalszine, Like you know, I mean, I I understand
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: him not doing anything, but it sucks still.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: No, it does. But also telling again if you look
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: at it from the perspective of like I'm a hired
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: killer and I've been told to make you into a killer.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: Like he's being honest with ash in a way that
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: maybe many others are not honest with him. Okay, he
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: just looks right at him and goes, I can't help you.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: Probably nobody in the world can help you. Like, if
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: you want to help yourself, you'll die. But hey, we
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: all a lot of us do choose to die. So
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: have fun because it's a it's an ugly world. And
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: that's kind of the thing that I like to tease
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: you about when you would be so in love with
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: the show, as I'd be like, okay, but like everything
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: about this show is ugly, like deeply ugly, Like when
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: you even when you just said like, well, from a
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: moral standpoint, I was upset. I was like, if you were,
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: if you want to have any moral standpoint at all,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: I don't know if this is the show for you.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean as applied to the storyline, because morally,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: so much bad is happening all the time, and just
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: kind of being excused not excused explained is a better
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: way to put it, because I don't think that the
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: show supports the bad things. But but Ash is made
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: into a monster by Goalzine and the abuse and the
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: and the instruction from Blanca. He's made into a a weapon,
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: a deadly awful thing. And that's not a judgment on Ash.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: That's that's happening to Ash. Ash did not wake up
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: and go I just want to kill a lot of
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: people because killing is fine, right, He's been He's been
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: groomed literally into that, and that's tragic. It really is
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: deeply tragic. But at the same time, if I want
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: to hold my own morality, I can only like, I
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: can't really see Ash being absolved at the point of
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: how much killing he's done and how callous he is
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: and how how deeply damaged he is.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean I don't think I mean, I
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: mean I I don't think that he is absolved. I
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: mean I think that that's kind of the point. I mean,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: I know that that's at least what Akim Yoshida said
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: that like he had to pay for his crimes.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, No, I was just saying from from
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: more of the audience standpoint, like as you're watching it,
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: it's like I don't see absolutions where we're headed. Oh yeah,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: that's where what I meant. Oh yeah, So I knew
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: that it was going to be there was going to
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: be a tragic end, but honestly, like when Ash died,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: I was kind of happy for him because he had
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: done some good things and got to feel good about himself.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, he just he
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: is who he is and it's not fair. That's not
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm not saying he deserved to die. I'm
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: saying that, like I'm glad he could live a life
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: he could no longer hurt anyone anymore, including himself. Yeah,
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: and and that's what I mean. But that's why, that's
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: why it's beautifully tragic and sad is and I don't
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: think that anybody could understand more than him, just how
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: broken he he was. Yeah, yeah, that's and that's kind
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: of the thing. And and and to go back to
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: Goalzen and how powerful, evil dangerous Goalzine is. I feel
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: like you mentioned something about your opinion about Goalzene that
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: you know he was so that he was he wasn't
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: so smart because he he didn't seem to understand he
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: couldn't control Ash or something like that. I'm trying to
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: remember exactly it was, like, Yeah.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Thought it probably said something like that. Maybe.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: I think Golesen, based on the anime and then the
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: two manga, I think Golesen believed he could that he
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: could get Ash to love him. Yeah, And I think
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: that that's why Golzine allowed all the things he allowed
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: with Ash.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: I think that I think he really believed that like this,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: this this beautiful creature will love me. It's beyond taming
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: of the physical, you know, it and and I really
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: think he thought that, and I think that that was
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: probably part of the hubris of being such a massive
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: crime boss.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean I don't disagree with you
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: at all with that. Yeah. I think I had said,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: like when we were when I was talking about episode
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: let's see if I can remember what episode it was.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It was one of the middle kind
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: of episodes. It might have been fourteen or fifteen, where
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: I just kind of was like, I think he's like
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: actually truly in love with Ash.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: Kind of oh yeah, yeah, no, there's no doubt.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not good, but but he he he loves him,
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: so yeah, I mean a lot of that is is
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: a lot of the way that he is letting him,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: you know, get away with things, is because he really
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: thinks that this is something that could happen.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't think he and I think that that love.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: You got to look at it from his perspective of
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: being this megalomaniac, power hungry, deviant monster thing. Ash is
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: like everything he'd want. He's he's beautiful, he's young. His
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: youth is a power that Golsine doesn't have. Golsine is old,
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: and you don't get to go backward. You don't get
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: to become younger. So I really do think in this
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: like twisted way, Golesin was like, if I can, if
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: I can sculpt him into exactly what I want in
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: every way, then when he takes over, because they mentioned that,
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: like he's grooming Ash to be his successor.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah multiple times.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that which is insane, Yeah it is. Yeah,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: but I think that's to tell you where Golezine's head
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: is at. I think he was starting to look beyond
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: what he'd already done. He was starting to look at
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: he was starting to really see the fact that he
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: had less days ahead of him than he had behind him.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: I think he was even to some degree comfortable with
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: Ash killing him inevitably, because that's what Goleszine would do
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: if Goleszene wanted to be I don't even think. I
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: don't know that Golesine even thought like, oh, he'll be
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: my successor because I'll hand him the throne. I think
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: he was like, no, no, eventually, ashe'll just get so
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: powerful and I'll get so old and weak that ashe'll
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: just push me down a flight of stairs and so
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: be it. That's what I would do, because again we're
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: looking at the moral space that this is existing in.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: But that's where Ash gets really interesting to me, because
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: I think that the reason that Ash is Ash is
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: that he just they're trying to kill all of him
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: inside to make him this thing, and there was a
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: section of him that refused to die.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And because it refused to die, this is this
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: isn't necessarily a good thing because you know, I mean,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: I mean from a from the perspective of human suffering,
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: because by not becoming fully by not becoming fully scarred
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: and numb, the pain would be excruciating living the life
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: he's forced to live, but still having that spark left
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: in him.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: And it's almost like they were paving concrete over Ash,
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: over the garden of Ash's spirit, you know who he is,
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: and you know, some vegetation was peeking through, and it's
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: choked and starved for oxygen or for sunlight, for water,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: and then Edgy is basically like a watering can for
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: only that part of him. So in a way, Edgy
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: was like the worst pain ever.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a really really poetic way
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: to look at it, and made me really sad, so good.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: No, it's it's no, it's unbelievably sad. I'm about to
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: make it even sadder. That's why I think it's good
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: that he died, because he needed to join the rest
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: of himself, because like, yeah, because the longer that he
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: lived with that spark of humanity in him, the longer
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: he would suffer the consequences of his actions. Because the
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: better a person he became, the further he'd be from
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: accepting who he was not Closer. Yeah, yeah, And I
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: really mean that because I know you like to laugh
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: and think that I just hate Ash. I don't hate,
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: but Ash is an irredeemably destroyed person, and that's the
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: worst thing to have to think about comprehend. It's He's
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: the definition of a tragic character. And I think you'd
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: be surprised, not that he's not a good one, but
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: I think you'd be surprised. If you sat and dissected
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: some really great tragic characters through history of movies, tv shows, whatever.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: A lot of them will leave you just devastated if
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: you really think about about them.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: Don't want to go into a ton of this because
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: this is not a show about like Oz, but there's
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: a character. But there's a character in OZ, because I've
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: got you watching that old HBO series OZ. There's a
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: character in it called Christopher Keller who has a very
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: similar backstory to Ash in certain ways.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you just want to make Ash Keller.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: I know, no, No, but that's it's the opposite. I'm
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: saying that if Ash hadn't died, he would become Keller. Yeah,
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: because Keller is what you become when that humanity is
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: basically gone. Keller was sexually abused and by dangerous people.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: He was then put in the prison system where he
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: was sexually abused even more and became a cold blooded
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: killer as well as a sex slave to whoever was powerful. Eventually,
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: he learned the only way to gain his own power
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: was to harm people sexually himself. He still has the capacity,
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: in his estimation to love, but it's completely perverted because
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: he's just been destroyed. Yeah, And that's kind of my
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: point with Ash, is that I think it was better
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: that he pass away than live to become that, because
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: that's the only way he'd live with himself. He'd live
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: with himself as if he he let that, he paved
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: over that last bit of humanity, which would be sadder
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: than him dying.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, yeah.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my point. I guess My point is, like, really,
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: to simplify it a lot, he would have become gold
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: because he was smart and brutal, and that's what Golesine was.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: Golesine was extremely intelligent and brutal, and Golesine only let
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: up his guard when he let his emotions get involved, right, yeah,
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: you know, and regardless of how perverted they actually. It's
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: a really good example. Goalzine is basically Keller, if Keller
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: had had become really really successful as a you know,
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: crime boss. Because Golsine is like, well, yes, I've molested
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: you and abused you and allowed others to do that,
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: but that's making you stronger because I love you and
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: I'm going to give you all these things, So just
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: let all that go. It's like, well he can because
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: he's completely dead inside. So to him, he's like, well,
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: it's what I did. I became a completely irredeemable monster.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: Just do that.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: Geez.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: It's so simple, you know, Like that's what I'm saying. Like,
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: Blanca is a good example too. He's a good kind
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: of balance point because he's an irredeemable monster. But he
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: has an element of of ethics because he's a killer.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: He's not a rapist, he as far as we know,
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: you know he's not, but he's not. He doesn't go
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: and do these evil things for fun. He does them
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: because he was trained to. It's what he can do.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: And basically, what do you what do you do become
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: a baker after you've been killing people for the KGB
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: or spetsna's your whole life, Like you'll just be pretending,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: You'll just be pretending who you are.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I think you always feel like you're
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: pretending to be who you are anyway, So I think
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: he should just be a baker there.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just saying, like this is a lot of guilt,
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: like more guilt than I think you and I are
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: actually capable of really understanding, you know, because because look
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: at our lives, which have been in the grand scheme
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: of like tragic lives, they've been very fine. Yeah, yeah,
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: they've been fine. And I'm the first one to admit that.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: And I have a lot of pain in my heart
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: and a lot of a grief I've been through. But
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: like I know that, like I'm not you know, fighting
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: against apartheid in Africa or something like. I know that
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: there's a that there are layers, there are levels, but
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: imagine the amount of pain that you or I have
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: felt in our lives from regret, from loss, from whatever,
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: and we feel broken sometimes like we can't be fixed.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: I can't imagine how somebody like like like even Golzin
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: and Blanca, let alone Ash, how they would have to
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: feel if they're even capable of trying anymore, right, Right.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: So that's why I think Ash is a really interesting
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: and terrifying character because as I was watching the show
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: before I knew, before I was confirmed his fate, all
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: I could think was, like, what a horrible creature he
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: was becoming. If he doesn't if he keeps going, you know,
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: he can't forever. And it's so so sad. It's so
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: incredibly sad.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: So that's that's, you know, one element. The other thing
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: that I found really interesting, complex and upsetting about the
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: show is whether or not a g and asher in
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: a romantic situation because Ash is like is a serial
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: victim of male sexual violence. Yeah, which is one of
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: the reasons that I think of Christopher Keller from OZ
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: because he is a serial victim of male sexual violence,
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: and then he appears to be gay, yes, or at
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: least bisexual or something. You know, he's interested in men.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: So I don't know if maybe that is one of
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: the things, Like if we're going to get really in
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: the weeds about the psychology, you don't have to if
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: you don't want to.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, we can. It's but like, all of
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: that is so complicated because as far as I'm aware,
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: and everyone can can yell at me and tell me
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: I'm wrong, But as much as people would like to
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: believe that sexuality is, you know, just all nature or whatever,
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: it appears that it is a combination of the two
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: of nature and nurture. So like it's really hard to
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: kind of parse these things and figure out exactly. I
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: don't know what I was gonna say there, Dan, No, You're.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: You're completely right. I think that it's it's hard to
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: argue or at least at the very least, I think
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: that it can be a combo of things, because nurture
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: is certainly not a small element of how a person
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: develops exactly. So part of me wonders, if I mean
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: what wonders I know that Ash's sense of intimacy and
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: stuff is completely skewed and broken horribly, and I'm pretty
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: sure Ash is even aware of that.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: Sure, Yeah, yeah.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: So that's number one. That so edgy. And again, this
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: makes so much more sense in the eighties than.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: It does now exactly for it to be for.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: It to be latent, or to be closeted, or to
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: be even or to even be just confusing, like really confusing,
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: because they just don't have any examples of of like
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: a healthy gay relationship that they could like pull from
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: as to where in twenty seventeen they'd have a plethora
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: of them every source of media. So but that could
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: lay into you know, maybe edgy, like if we if
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: we take it at face value from the anime, I
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: guess Agy just has to be like severely sheltered, like
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: severely sheltered. But if he was that severely sheltered, I
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: wouldn't imagine letting him go to America. But any well,
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: he was an adult, so I guess whatever.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: But yeah, you can do whatever he wants.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So, from Ash's standpoint, it's possible that he's gay,
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: it's possible that he is not. It's possible he's incapable
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: of intimacy because of his which I think is totally
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: fair or at least incapable at the time. But I don't.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: I don't. Again, I hate to say, I hate reiterating,
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: but I don't see him getting better. I'm sorry, Like
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: at the level of where he was, you know, it's
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: tragic as shit. But with Edgy, I don't know Edgie
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: might have been. I think it's very likely Edgy was
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: confused or confused in the right where, you know, but
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: like curious or not not sure if he's romantic or not.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I wonder, and I don't know for sure at all.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: I sometimes I wondered when I watched the show if
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Edgi was like open to the idea of potentially being
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: being gay or whatever or bisexual, doesn't matter, interested in men.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: But he was kind of letting Ash take the lead
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: because Edgy is a bit feminine what he is. I'm sorry,
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: he is a bit feminine. I'm just saying I think
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: he would and well, it's not it's not like Ash
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: doesn't exude like I'm the leader in every situation I'm
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: in b W. But and we're getting into dating dynamics.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: But I really sometimes I wonder if maybe Edgy was
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: waiting for Ash to make it romantic if if you
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: wanted to see.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, did you have more that you were gonna say?
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: It looked like you were well and Ash would never
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: because Ash is so broken. Yeah, Like like, I don't
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: think Ash could equate much intimacy with anything other than harm.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: That's all I got.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, I totally. I totally agree with you
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: about that. I don't know if I agree with you
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: about AG. I could, I could see that, but there
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: are just a couple of points in the anime where
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: like someone will say something and then like I see
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: AG kind of back off, Like like I kind of
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: feel like AG maybe you know, gay or by or something,
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: but that he is kind of getting signals that like
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: he he should not move forward with Ash, like he
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: he's interested in him, but he's pretty sure that Ash
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: would not be able to like that, that wouldn't happen.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: I I don't know.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: I'm no, I don't think you're I think that's a
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: reasonable thought too. I was kind of playing to the
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: idea that since Edgy is inexperienced and stuff too, I
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: think that he's definitely just kind of was hanging around
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: to see what happened. I think that's that's possible. That's
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: kind of what I was thinking, because I don't know,
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: like I think that there's something to be said for
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: for just going with the flow, or maybe Edgie didn't realize,
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: you know, what the feelings exactly were. I mean, it's
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: not like you dated in Japan, no one does so.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: But but no, that's the thing is like the the
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: which I because from what I've heard, the like two
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: guys like are they into each other? Are they not?
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: Thing is not super uncommon for it to be somewhat ambiguous,
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: but like in this context, based on everything Ash has
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: been through, it makes it immensely more complicated and complex
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: and uncomfortable too, right, it really does? No please?
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I mean I think it's it's also hard
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: again just because of the time period that it was
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: supposed to take place. I mean, there were a lot
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: of like little signals that like either that wouldn't be okay,
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: or everyone is kind of like what's going on between them,
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: especially in the manga in kind of the later sections,
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: like when when they were like man like towards the
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: very end, when they were like in that like abandoned
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: apartment complex stuff and ags just around all the time,
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: and everyone is like, I don't understand why he's around
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: all the time. I just feel like and and the
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: way that like other people, especially Shunichi, was talking about
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: them being friends and stuff like, I just got the
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: impression that like maybe that wasn't something that we could
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: really talk about in this situation as well. Yeah, if
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: that made sense, I mean, yeah, I don't know, No.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: That makes sense. I don't think you're You're wrong, that's
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: what's I mean, you're I think you're it's to my point, Yeah,
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: I think that there were clearly boundaries that probably shouldn't
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: be crossed that that that people were, whether they were
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: literally or figure you know, whether they were directly or
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: subconsciously aware of them, they were there for sure. I
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: think that's without a doubt. And I don't think that
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: it really matters because they were good friends to each
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: other m hm. And I think that that's important and valuable.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: But unfortunately, I mean, nobody could save Ash, and that's
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: the that's the cruel truth. And you can't save people
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: that are damaged. They have to save themselves. Yeah. Yeah,
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: but Ash is not stupid, considering they keep reiterating his
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: IQ all the time and this h.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: But I wish they would have spaced that out a
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: little bit more because you knew about that earlier on
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: in the manga, and it's just like it happened in
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: the Enieme and I was like, oh really, okay.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and I think ashe knew that if he
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: tried to have a life with Edgy, he would still
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: be who he was, and I'm sure he was afraid
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: he'd become that again.
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean yeah, I mean he's constantly constantly telling
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: him like, I kill I'm a killer, Like I don't
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: even know how many people I've killed, like, and.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: Edgy's just like la la la la la la la
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: la la la la la la la.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, AG just likes him regardless. And I
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: mean that's probably not.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: Great, not great now, but but it's also if it's
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: his first love, then it's also that's a whole other
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: thing too.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because first loves, I mean, we all make mistakes
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: and being young and all that. So I don't know,
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm glad, like I one of the things
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: I liked a lot about those manga follow ups was
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: just Edgy getting to be an adult, yeah, and acting
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: more like an adult, because it doesn't mean that his
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: time being you know, air quotes childish, you know, running
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: around with Ash, risking his life doing all that. It
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean that they're valueless. He learned an immense amount
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: about himself, about life, about the world, about everything from
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: that experience. I'm so glad he survived it. Yeah, but
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: I pray that if Age thought about it and was
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: like if I if a situation like that arose again,
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: I would run away. I would not want to do
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: it again. I mean, I you know, if I could
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: do it all over, I'd do it again. Sure, But
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: if it could happen next week, Fuck no, I'm out
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: of here, like I am. I'm I'm running away and
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: hiding because I now understand what, you know, what could
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: happen or what is valuable in life.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I am a little bit worried about
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: him still hanging out with Sing, who is obviously in
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: like the Chinatown mafia thing now, yeah too, that's a
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: little bit troublesome. I don't know what happened to everyone else,
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: if they're still alive, if they you know, we really
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: only know about Sing and.
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: You love so well. If Edgi ended up hanging out
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: with those same people after Ash died, then Ash irreparably
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: damaged AG's life forever. Yeah, and that's not fun to
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: think about either. But I also this is where I
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: get a little tricky because like manga, TV series, especially
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: anime and stuff like that, they're so expansive, you know,
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: so like you get an ending, but then you might
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: get a little more, and you might get a little more,
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: and you might get a little more. It makes it
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: hard because, like often I like to think that the
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: way to understand what a story was really always about
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: is where it ends, what's resolved, right before we see
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: credits that it's over. And with the anime Banana Fish,
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's that Ash died, but he died being
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: the best version of himself he could be, and he
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: felt things things that he probably should not have been
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: able to, but he was able to because he's good.
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: He was good inside, and that good refused to be extinguished.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: But unfortunately that you know, that's his undoing in the end.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so, I mean I think that Ash would
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: have been comforted by the idea that he would never
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: hurt anyone ever again, even if they deserved it, because
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: when you hurt people, even if they deserve it, even
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: in self defense and stuff, it hurts you. Harming other
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: people is not supposed to be nothing.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: Kind of my point. You know. It's like it's like Patriot,
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: you know, a show on Amazon Prime. We both really
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: like like the entire purpose behind that show. It's about
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: a spy in the CIA. They were like, what if
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: what if James Bond was like an actual guy and
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: not like some weird superhero sociopath, which is how he's
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: how he's depicted. You know, he's just fine killing people
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: all day long and doing all these things. And I
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: think that that's a really interesting way to look at
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: things too, is to actually like have a real human element,
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: you know, a believable human element. And I think Ash
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: is a very believable human element. And uh, I liked it.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: I learned a lot, you know, about about accepting who
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: you are, even when it's really not good. I mean,
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, like the I mean not good is in
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: that he will die like not not good because because
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: he did want to be better. It's just at what
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: point can you not turn away from that mountain of
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: of of of what you've done?
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean yea if I can just kind of
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: jump into.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: Uh I forgot no no, like so so I think
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: I mean we've kind of talked about why you think
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: that I like Ash.
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: So much and stuff.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah stuff. But but like one of the big things
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: that I like about him is that he just kind
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: of refused to just completely give up that little part
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: of himself that was still you know there. That's like
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: my favorite kind of character, when you have someone who's like, no,
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: no matter what happens, I don't fucking care, I'm going
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: to continue to be me. I'm going to just continue.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: And uh I don't see that as much as I
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: want to.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, you don't see as much you want to
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: in general, you mean yeah, yeah, yeah, well yeah, I
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: mean there are a lot of characters that you know,
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: defy and be themselves, but Ash is such an extreme example. Yeah,
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: because it's like, you know, he's been coerced into doing
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: so many terrible things, but then when he's on his own,
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: he also does terrible things. Now they're justified, but that's
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: even worse because justification makes you keep doing the thing
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: that's whittling away your soul. So yeah, it's it's rough man. Yeah. Yeah,
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: but I'm sorry, you're not as damaged as Ash. I'm sorry,
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: you're not as bad of a person as Ash. I'm sorry.
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: I know that that's like the that's the fantasy you
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: have of yourself is that you're like the worst human
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: being on earth. But in reality, you're just like a
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: really nice person. And you are. I'm sorry, you are
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: like just a really nice person. You're funny, and you're friendly,
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: and you're like kind to your parents. You're like, you're
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: just like a good person. You're you're like a menshow. Sorry,
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, man, that's that's you.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: No, everyone's gonna know. And I don't even think that's true.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: I know you don't think that's true because you you
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: believe you don't know anything, but also that you're correct
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: about yourself.
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's hard.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very it's very very challenging circular logic. You
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: got going there? Ye, but but no, but Ash is
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: a is a Yeah, it's a tragic story about like
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: about the realities of like of a type of of
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: unconditional love. I guess yeah, and but and and and Honestly,
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: I think if you want to be as honest about
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: love as possible, then there should be stories about how
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: it wasn't such a good idea. Mm hmm, yeah, because
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: lots of people love the wrong person. Lots of people
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: love the wrong person. Now, Ash is not just simply
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: like a bad choice of who to love. I mean,
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: he's very much more complicated than that, and there's a
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: lot to him. But you know, you can get a
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: lot of trouble over love, and you people can get hurt.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I just hope Edge's okay. I hope he's
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: not like doing anything stupid.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: I think he's okay.
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, probably he's from money, he'll be fine.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: Actually, I wondered, like, what happens to Ash's money. He
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: had a lot of money.
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: I would assume would be stolen because all of his
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: acquaintances or thieves.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: It's possible.
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just kind of assumed. Yeah, But I mean
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: that's a good question too, that's you know, I think hmm.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: The fact that I mean, although maybe he just couldn't escape,
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: was the fact that he had all this money and
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: didn't just disappear with it is also worrisome. You know
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: that that instead of running off and like hiding in
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: the mountains, because he's smart enough to like probably hide himself. Well, yeah,
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: he would just keep being in gangs, and it's not good.
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: It's not a good thing. No, No, it's certainly not
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: a situation where he could get away from that old
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: way of life of like harming people and being a
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: criminal by being a criminal and harming people.
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, just by continuing. Yeah, but you know,
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: I guess, I guess it comes down to, like, I
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: don't know, it's hard to start over, you know, and.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, especially when you don't want to.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: Well, and then and there's also you know, there's the
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: other element, which is a little less like intensely human,
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: but like when you're good at something, it's hard not
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: to do it because it's a very good feeling to
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: be good at something. Yeah, And I'm sure that mortified
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: him deep down, that like, yeah, well I'm good at
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: hurting people, I'm good at like crime stuff. I'll just
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: do crime stuff.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: So he also could It's also possibly he would do
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: that bad stuff because he hated himself, uh huh, So
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: he could just keep abusing himself by making it worse.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: So in the way, letting his guard down and dying
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: was like the ultimate self love of like I could
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: keep being this bad person and hate myself, or I
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: could embrace the better part of me, which will undoubtedly
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: get me killed. Because yeah, I'm I've just hurt too
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: many people, good or bad to get away with it. Yeah,
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: because it always comes back. It always comes back, I
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: mean most of the time. I mean, if the story
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: is well written, it's a story.
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: Uh yeah. So I don't know. What I do love though,
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: is that we could talk about banana fish for almost
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: an hour and never once mentioned banana fish because it
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: was such a pointless element of the series.
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: Well there was a biotoxin or something. I don't remember anyway,
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: So there's two guys.
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: So so like I remember early on you were talking
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: about it and you were like, oh, and it's kind
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: of like a crime show. And I was just like,
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: because you're about banana fish. And I was just like,
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: I guess or like about I don't remember what you
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: said specifically about it being about banana fish, like the
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: drug like early on, and I was just like, I
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: don't I guess, so like not really and you were
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: like yeah, I was like okay.
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: Oh well I had to find out. Yeah, yeah, banana
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: fish was just was was like the like a very
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: bad mcguffin. Are you familiar with the term mcguffin, No,
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: it's a it's a term. I don't know if Alfred
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: Hitchcock invented it or just made it famous. But the
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: mcguffin is just a thing everybody wants. That's the catalyst
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: for everything that's happening.
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: He used to sometimes develop stories and he wouldn't know
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: what that thing was yet, so he would literally write
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: in his notes and in his scripts like he picks
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: up the mcguffin, and you know, does this stuff? And
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: then later on he'd be like, oh, it's you know,
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: it's a it's a you know, an audio cassette recording
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: of a murder or something.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: Later on he'd come up with what the thing is
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: everybody wants? Yeah, Which I always love that because, you know,
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: because it was like simultaneously saying the thing doesn't matter,
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: but also the thing matters a lot, because it's like, well,
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: it matters so little, it doesn't even matter what it is,
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: but it matters so much. After I write everything else,
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: I'll know what would matter to the character, so I'll
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: change it to that. So it actually could both could
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: be true simultaneously. But yeah, Banana Fish was like a
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: like a McGuff and barely even a thought most of
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: the time. And I'm fine with that. I'm fine with that.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: It's one of those things where it could have been
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, considering we're dealing with like organized crime and
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: gangs and stuff, it could have been anything. We could
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: have done this at any point in the timeline.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, honestly, I'm surprised it wasn't just you know, like
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: a thing that would bring down Goalzine or something like.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: I like so and when Golzine dies, by the way,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: I thought that was really interesting because it seemed like, well,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: when we think he dies, but then he actually you
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: know what, because he just he just kind of was
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: okay with the situation. He knew he was dealing with
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: people more dangerous than him for the first time in
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: his life. Yeah, and he was kind of like, eh.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: I do think Golesine was like feeling his age. I
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: think that was a big part of it, because there's
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: a belief, especially when it comes to sexual violence that
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: against children that like the u fullness is something people
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: like want but they're bent, you know, they're broken, so
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: they want to hurt it. Yeah, and that that's a
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: weird you know element. So I mean, I'm gonna say something. Really,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: I'll go out on a limb and say, unpopular opinion,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: harming children is wrong. I'm sorry it is.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: On this show.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: That's but I mean you could edit that out if
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: you if you have to buy law. But no, so
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I I think that, you know, I
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: don't think this show is particularly half baked at all.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: But I do think that that trope of like everybody's
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: so in love with Ash is really ouky sometimes because
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: of his history.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: I yeah, no, I I totally understand that. Again, see
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: it a little bit less since I'm so, you know
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: in uh, show Joe, But I totally know what. I
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: totally understand.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: Show Jo has groomed you too to feel like that's fine.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: I guess I have to die now.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: Find the spirit.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's okay though, because because I was messed up.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: So it's okay, so that like no more be dies.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: Well, it was messed up, like you had to you
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: have like a college degree you don't use like, oh,
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: that's not the same as Ash. I'm sorry, No, it's
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: the same.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: No, I'm just kidding. But but yeah, yeah, oh god, yeah,
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: I don't know. That's most of it, honestly for sure.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, is there anything else you were thinking about?
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: Because those were the thing the things we talked about
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: were the ones I've definitely been thinking about the most
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: since I watched Banana Fish.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean we we've kind of gotten over I
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: think most of it, and more in depth than I,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: you know, wrote down on my notes. I guess I
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: can just ask you. So, so this is out of
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: all the things that I've shown you. I'm not going
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: to say what's your favorite or anything, but what I'm
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: trying to say is, out of all the things I've
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: shown you, I've really only shown you shown in and
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: some late night novel adaptations, I haven't shown you. This
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: would have been the first Show Joe demographic show that
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: we watched together, sort of watch together. How do you
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: feel about Show Jo right now?
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: I think this was the worst way to start me
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: on Show Job, because you're like Show Jo, it's all
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: about how beautiful the main character is. Everybody loves him.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: But anyways, raped a time and I'm like, what the
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: japan I guess, I don't know. I think it's so weird.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: They have such like distinct categories, like they're so specific.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: But I mean, I liked it. I thought it was
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: a good show. I really, But I guess the show
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: Joe out elements were the parts that made me the
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: most uncomfortable because they just didn't seem to make sense sometimes,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: or they or if they were supposed to make sense,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: they were very offensive. Now because because the problem is
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: when you make a story where everybody appears to just
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: sexually assault this young boy, but then you also make
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: it that everybody just can't get over how beautifully is,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: how wonderfully is, it makes it sound like he's bait
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: for rape. Yeah, yeah, that's not okay, that's not cool. Bro.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: So I don't know, Yeah, I don't know. I like
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: this one, but I don't know. I don't know if
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: that if this was a fair way to get a
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: taste of a subgenre.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well we'll do something nicer next time.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're like, we're gonna let's we'll do this anime instead.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: It's called Rape Squad four point zero.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: There's only a little bit of rape in.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: It, so like it's like fish. There's basically no banana fish.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: In it, exactly exact.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, great, but no, I'd be curious. I'd definitely be curious.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: But I guess that's really all I can say anymore,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: because now every time like you say something like deep,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: I cry a.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: Little bit, so I know I can't. I can see you,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: And I wish that you couldn't, but you can. So yeah,
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: that's yeah, that's really all I wanted to talk about.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: But you know, thanks for doing this with me. And
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: I hope that everyone who listened doesn't like hate me.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: Now why would they hate you? Now?
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: What.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It just seemed like the right thing
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: to say.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: Well, that's because you you believe you're like a terminally
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: damaged character like Ash, and you're you're You're not even
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: vaguely that I'm sorry, fine, You're you're like the best
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: friend I've ever had in the world. Oh God, I
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: will say, in my experience when it comes to having
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: a best friend, especially when you're going through hell, I
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: think we all kind of feel like Ash and AG.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: We all feel like we are bad and selfish, and
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: it makes no sense why this nice and pure person
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: even acknowledges our existence. I do think that that's a
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: common feeling for me. Yeah. Yeah, but then it gets
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: really awkward because you've been my ag many times. Yeah,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: so sorry, man, you know I'm right too. That's the
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: worst part. You can't even argue it because you know
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: I'm right.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there you go. We're really good friends. I'm sorry.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: Man ruining everything now.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: That's my way. That's because I'm terrible. Man, I killed
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: all these people.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's okay, because I still like you.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. I don't even know how many.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: That's okay, it would be it's better if you don't
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: tell me how many. But yeah, that's but yeah, thank you.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: That's that's really all I got.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: It was my pleasure. I'm so happy to talk about it.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: Cool. Yeah. So I hope that everybody listening to this
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: thought that this was fine ish or that they weren't
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: very angry about it. And I'll see you guys in
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: like two weeks on the thirteenth when we start eighty six.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: So I don't know, get on that it's gonna be
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: less sad. No, it's gonna be just as sad, but
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: in totally different ways. That's yeah, But I probably won't
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: cry as much because no, I know, I've I've never
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: cried this much. Yeah, apparently I have. It doesn't matter.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: I hope you guys have like a really good whatever,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: and uh yeah, i'll see you soon later weeves ah
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: she said it