Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Exorcism, Swaddling, Food Restriction Leads to Death of 4-Year-Old Boy

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Exorcism, Swaddling, Food Restriction Leads to Death of 4-Year-Old Boy · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A beautiful four year old
0:14
Speaker 1: boy is dead and now we're wondering why. I mean,
0:19
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
0:22
Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and Serious XM one eleven.
0:27
Speaker 1: Have you heard the word swaddle? I thought I knew
0:31
Speaker 1: what that meant. Now I'm learning a lot more about
0:35
Speaker 1: that word swaddle. But I think we all know the
0:38
Speaker 1: word exorcism. First of all, take a listen to our
0:41
Speaker 1: France at WFMY. This all started back on January fifth,
0:45
Speaker 1: when Joseph Wilson called nine one one reporting that Skylar
0:50
Speaker 1: was having a seizure. Hours before calling nine one one,
0:53
Speaker 1: Jody Wilson texted her husband saying something happened while swaddling
0:58
Speaker 1: Skylar swaddling swaddling And why is she texting her husband
1:06
Speaker 1: something happened with Skyler hours before calling nine one one?
1:14
Speaker 1: Right there? I don't like it. True. Some people me
1:19
Speaker 1: overreact and call nine one one whenever you see a
1:23
Speaker 1: car crash or you think a child is being mistreated.
1:28
Speaker 1: But I always think better safe than sorry. Correct? Why
1:31
Speaker 1: does she wait that long? As a matter of fact,
1:34
Speaker 1: who are these people? Who are Skylar's parents? Take listen
1:38
Speaker 1: now to our friends at crime online dot com. Welcome
1:42
Speaker 1: to Affordable Wellness, the future of healthcare. Let us be
1:46
Speaker 1: your guide on your journey back to true health. At
1:49
Speaker 1: Affordable Wellness, we put you in control of your health.
1:53
Speaker 1: That is the opening line on the web page of
1:56
Speaker 1: Affordable Wellness in mount Airy, North Carolina. The owners doctor
1:59
Speaker 1: Joe Wilson and his wife, Jody Wilson. Doctor Joe Wilson
2:03
Speaker 1: was born and raised in nearby Statesville, North Carolina. His
2:06
Speaker 1: online bio says he was an Eagle Scout, did missionary
2:09
Speaker 1: work in Argentina, has a master's degree and acupuncture and
2:12
Speaker 1: a doctorate of chiropractic. He and his wife Jody have
2:15
Speaker 1: three daughters, but online they don't mention they have adopted
2:19
Speaker 1: two boys. Skyler and his brother were both in foster
2:23
Speaker 1: care when doctor Joe and Jody Wilson adopted them nearly
2:26
Speaker 1: two years ago. Okay, hold on right there, before I
2:29
Speaker 1: go on about who these parents are. They clearly have
2:32
Speaker 1: degrees out the ying Yang. But wait, wait, wait, wait,
2:36
Speaker 1: Karen start joining me. Well known psychologists joining us out
2:41
Speaker 1: of Manhattan. You can find her at Karen dot com.
2:45
Speaker 1: And that's Karen with a see, Karen, you get our
2:49
Speaker 1: Christmas and Easter cards every year, and I can't imagine
2:56
Speaker 1: having one of those Christmas cards or Easter card. What
3:00
Speaker 1: would you think if all of a sudden John David
3:02
Speaker 1: wasn't in there, or Lucy just was somehow missing, there
3:07
Speaker 1: was a space there which she normally stands. Obviously, I
3:11
Speaker 1: would begin to wonder, Nancy, about what happened to one
3:14
Speaker 1: of the kids. I doubt you'd wonder very long, because
3:16
Speaker 1: you'd pick up the phone and call me. You have
3:20
Speaker 1: to think, if they had these two extra children that
3:23
Speaker 1: they've adopted, what in the world going on if they
3:27
Speaker 1: have left them out of the picture, literally out of
3:30
Speaker 1: the picture. Okay, guys, we're hearing about affordable wellness the
3:34
Speaker 1: future of healthcare. I understand. Hey, guys, join me me.
3:37
Speaker 1: I'm hearing in my ear. Caitlin Becker, senior reporter for
3:41
Speaker 1: Dailymail dot Com. You can find her at Caitlin Becker. Caitlyn,
3:46
Speaker 1: thanks for being with us and Caitlin Affordable Wellness The
3:50
Speaker 1: future of healthcare? Is that their healthcare center it is.
3:55
Speaker 1: It was mainly a chiropractic center, but doctor Joe Wilson
3:59
Speaker 1: did ropractic. He did acupuncture and nutrition and all sorts
4:04
Speaker 1: of sort of different modalities. What do you mean different modality?
4:10
Speaker 1: Like Jackie told me if she's telling the truth, that
4:14
Speaker 1: she's not going to be here tomorrow morning with the
4:16
Speaker 1: rest of us at five to twenty eight am, that
4:18
Speaker 1: she has a doctor's appointment. She didn't say she had
4:22
Speaker 1: a what did you say, multimodality? Yeah, a multimodality appointment.
4:29
Speaker 1: What is that you know, Nancy? I am in I
4:33
Speaker 1: live in Los Angelis. The multimodalities is something we deal
4:35
Speaker 1: and all the time. So I'm sure what is a moralistic,
4:39
Speaker 1: holistic approach to the body. So chiropractic, accupuncture, things like cupping,
4:43
Speaker 1: But even doctor Joel you mean the thing Gwyneth Paltrow
4:48
Speaker 1: does where she has big round marks on her back, Yes,
4:51
Speaker 1: which I do do and I like. But even doctor
4:54
Speaker 1: Joe Wilson's former Okay, see Caitlin, I can never look
4:58
Speaker 1: at you the same again. A chiropractor who has turned
5:05
Speaker 1: his chiropractic practice into a multimodality basically healing center three
5:12
Speaker 1: more holistic methods. Okay, I understand that. Now, what do
5:17
Speaker 1: we know about the wife? Take a listen to Crime
5:20
Speaker 1: online dot COM's Dave mac. Jody Wilson is the wife
5:24
Speaker 1: of doctor Joe Wilson, and her bio on the Affordable
5:27
Speaker 1: Wellness website says she and doctor Joe met while she
5:30
Speaker 1: was doing an internship at wake Forest University Baptist Medical
5:34
Speaker 1: Center in Winston Salem, North Carolina. She and doctor Joe
5:37
Speaker 1: both mentioned that they have three daughters, but neither mentions
5:41
Speaker 1: they adopted Skylar Wilson and his brother. She mentions having
5:45
Speaker 1: a cat, Lucky, and a flock of chickens, but no
5:48
Speaker 1: mention of the two boys they adopted out of foster
5:50
Speaker 1: care nearly two years ago. So the cat and the
5:53
Speaker 1: chickens make it onto the website, but not the two
5:57
Speaker 1: little boys, one of them being Sky. Let us bring
6:01
Speaker 1: it up to the moment that baby Skylar, just four
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Speaker 1: years old, goes into seizures. Take a listen to our friend,
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Speaker 1: reported Madison Foresee at Fox eight News. It wasn't until
6:17
Speaker 1: eight nineteen that night Joseph Wilson called nine one for
6:20
Speaker 1: help saying Skylar was having a seizure. Four year old Patience.
6:26
Speaker 1: Jody Wilson could be heard in the background saying it's
6:29
Speaker 1: my fault. Skyler ended up here at Brennard Children's Hospital,
6:32
Speaker 1: where he died four days later. The doctor who took
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Speaker 1: care of him told too much restriction while he was
6:37
Speaker 1: swaddled led to his brain injuries. Okay, right there, I've
6:42
Speaker 1: got an all star panel to figure out what we
6:44
Speaker 1: can what sense we can make of these facts. Does
6:47
Speaker 1: anybody know about swaddling, because the first time I ever
6:52
Speaker 1: heard that word was at Christmas time as little girl,
6:55
Speaker 1: where the shepherds found Christ in a major I did
7:01
Speaker 1: not know what swaddled meant. Then I later learned it
7:04
Speaker 1: meant to be well, at that point, I thought it
7:06
Speaker 1: was wrapped in swaddling clothes like loose blankets. It's what
7:11
Speaker 1: I envisioned. But then when I had the twins, fast
7:15
Speaker 1: forward many years later, they taught me. Of course, the
7:18
Speaker 1: twins were extremely premature how to swaddle them for the
7:23
Speaker 1: next two or three weeks until they became accustomed to
7:27
Speaker 1: being free to move their arms and legs however they wanted.
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Speaker 1: So I thought still it was just a mode of
7:34
Speaker 1: wrapping your baby up in a blanket. Now I'm learning
7:38
Speaker 1: it's a lot more than that. To doctor Tim Gallagher,
7:44
Speaker 1: renowned medical examiner, joining me out of the state of
7:46
Speaker 1: Florida at pathcaremad dot com. Lecturer University of Florida Medical
7:51
Speaker 1: School Forensic Science, and this is really impressive. He's the
7:55
Speaker 1: founder and host of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference,
8:03
Speaker 1: which is gaining momentum. Going strong, Doctor Gallagher, thank you
8:08
Speaker 1: for being with us. Why would a four year old
8:13
Speaker 1: boy or girl still be swaddled? Because I didn't, but
8:19
Speaker 1: most people wrapped the baby in very well, not very
8:22
Speaker 1: very tight, but tight wrappings to swaddle a baby. Right. Well,
8:27
Speaker 1: I've had cases where the infant was swaddled and that
8:30
Speaker 1: was the cause of death. It was a little too tight.
8:33
Speaker 1: Oh okay, wait stop, remember you're talking to non medical doctors. Okay,
8:39
Speaker 1: what did you just say? You have had infant death
8:43
Speaker 1: because of swaddling. That's correct, Nancy. We've had It's not
8:47
Speaker 1: very often, but approximately once or twice a year. You know,
8:50
Speaker 1: I would have an infant death due to swaddling. That's
8:54
Speaker 1: when the blankets are wrapped around the infant so tightly
8:57
Speaker 1: that the lungs are not able to expand and that
9:00
Speaker 1: the kid is not able to breathe correctly and they
9:02
Speaker 1: die of suffocation that way. You know, a four year
9:06
Speaker 1: old I don't know of any specific reason why they
9:10
Speaker 1: would need to be swaddled. You know, they will suffer
9:15
Speaker 1: the same effects. They would suffer the same effects of
9:18
Speaker 1: not being able to breathe correctly, of not getting enough
9:20
Speaker 1: oxygen to their brain. And as we know, and as
9:23
Speaker 1: we've discussed in the past, it only takes about three
9:27
Speaker 1: minutes before the brain start suffering irreversible brain damage which
9:31
Speaker 1: would lead to death, you know, after the lungs have
9:33
Speaker 1: been constricted to way they are with this type of
9:36
Speaker 1: tight swaddling. Time Stories with Nancy Grace, Doctor Galagi. Let
9:54
Speaker 1: me ask you a question, John David now at we're
9:57
Speaker 1: watching a thriller late last night, yes it was a
10:00
Speaker 1: school night, and he asked me, Mom, how long does
10:05
Speaker 1: someone have to be suffocated before they die? Because there's
10:08
Speaker 1: a suffocation scene in the spy thriller. What's the answer
10:13
Speaker 1: to that. Well, when someone is beginning to get suffocated,
10:17
Speaker 1: in about fifteen to thirty seconds, they will pass out.
10:20
Speaker 1: They will pass out and they will become unconscious. And
10:25
Speaker 1: if that continues, if the suffocation continues, it will be
10:28
Speaker 1: three minutes, you know, before their brain starts to suffer
10:31
Speaker 1: irreversible type of brain damage. You know that can lead
10:35
Speaker 1: to their depths, So they would have to be suffocated
10:37
Speaker 1: for three minutes or more, you know, to affect death.
10:39
Speaker 1: You know, in that person, doctor Gallagher, you mentioned three
10:43
Speaker 1: minutes for an adult, I'm thinking about a child being swaddled,
10:51
Speaker 1: which is kind of like I would compare it to
10:55
Speaker 1: positional asphyxiation, where you're you can't move and you your
11:01
Speaker 1: lungs can't expand you can't breathe, like when a baby's
11:04
Speaker 1: tipped over and it can't breathe. How long is it
11:08
Speaker 1: also three minutes for a baby that is swaddled very
11:12
Speaker 1: tightly until the baby dies. Well, you know now that
11:17
Speaker 1: you have me thinking about it more, you know, children
11:19
Speaker 1: are more resistant to you know, this type of we
11:23
Speaker 1: call it oxygen starvation to the brain or cerebral anoxia.
11:27
Speaker 1: They are more resistant to that. You've probably heard of
11:30
Speaker 1: children who slip through the ice and go under the
11:33
Speaker 1: water and have been under there for half an hour
11:35
Speaker 1: and are successfully revived. You rarely hear of any adult
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Speaker 1: doing that. The child's brain is more resistant to this
11:44
Speaker 1: type of oxygen deprivation. So you know, in a child,
11:50
Speaker 1: I would argue, well, on the stand that it would
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Speaker 1: be three minutes or greater, most likely greater than three minutes,
11:57
Speaker 1: you know, for the death take effect. You know, I'm
12:00
Speaker 1: just thinking back about what you told me. Caitlin Becker
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Speaker 1: joining US senior reporter dailymail dot com. You said that
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Speaker 1: the father here is runs his own wellness clinic. Doctor
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Speaker 1: Joe Wilson, who was a licensed chiropractor, has a master's
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Speaker 1: degree in acupuncture doctor doctorate of chiropractic. And then his
12:24
Speaker 1: wife he met while she was doing an internship at
12:27
Speaker 1: Wake Forest Medical Center, so they both are very well
12:32
Speaker 1: versed in you know, wellness medical procedures. Yet they're swaddling
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Speaker 1: a little four year old boy so tightly he goes
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Speaker 1: into seizures. Nothing about this makes sense for any kind
12:47
Speaker 1: of medical professional or any kind of parent would know
12:50
Speaker 1: the difference between swaddling an infant and what they're doing
12:52
Speaker 1: to a four year old. And to be clear, like
12:55
Speaker 1: you had mentioned earlier, swaddling is a basically a soothing
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Speaker 1: technique that you use for infants, and no kind of
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Speaker 1: hard and fast rule about what age you stop swaddling anything.
13:04
Speaker 1: Why is that? I mean, it's for infants to resemble
13:07
Speaker 1: being in the womb. It is for a two month old.
13:10
Speaker 1: The minute the baby the infant can roll over is
13:13
Speaker 1: the time you stop swaddling. So under no circumstances would
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Speaker 1: it ever be conceivable to do this with a sheet
13:19
Speaker 1: to a four year old. I mean, let's call this
13:21
Speaker 1: what it is. They were restricting the child's movements on purpose,
13:26
Speaker 1: as I think, either a parenting or a punishment technique,
13:31
Speaker 1: which is that's what it sounds like to me. And
13:33
Speaker 1: I think they're sort of couching this in the word swaddling.
13:36
Speaker 1: I don't know, to make it more palatable to them
13:38
Speaker 1: or more palatable to others, but there's just no reason
13:42
Speaker 1: a four year old child should ever be swaddled, particularly
13:46
Speaker 1: with the sheet. And they could have been a wagon.
13:48
Speaker 1: They swaddow him, and they put him in a wagon
13:50
Speaker 1: which they used for a bed. You know, Karen, start
13:52
Speaker 1: with me. Psychologists out in Manhattan, Karen, I remember that
13:57
Speaker 1: we had a nurse with us. I first brought the
14:00
Speaker 1: twins home because as you will remember, I couldn't really
14:04
Speaker 1: walk that well, and she swallowed the babies for about
14:08
Speaker 1: two or three days, and I would be sitting right there,
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Speaker 1: and finally I told her, I said, I just don't
14:13
Speaker 1: like to see them restricted in that way. I know
14:17
Speaker 1: it's going to be a shock to them to have
14:19
Speaker 1: their arms and legs free, but that's what I want.
14:22
Speaker 1: And she actually argued with me. She thought they should
14:25
Speaker 1: still be swaddled, but I couldn't stand to see them
14:28
Speaker 1: constricted that way. There was something I just felt innately,
14:32
Speaker 1: there was something wrong with it, much less a four
14:34
Speaker 1: year old boy. Listen in the now. A lot of
14:37
Speaker 1: places now they do not allow swaddling because if you
14:41
Speaker 1: don't do it correctly, the child could die. As we're
14:44
Speaker 1: discussing where they could have tip displacement. There are a
14:47
Speaker 1: lot of things that could go wrong. The problem in
14:50
Speaker 1: this instance is that they were being advised by somebody
14:55
Speaker 1: who actually recommended treatment that would neg be approved by
15:01
Speaker 1: the American Psychological Association or any therapeutics association that talks
15:07
Speaker 1: about how you deal with children. Well, guess what, Karen,
15:11
Speaker 1: it wasn't just swaddling. Okay, take a listen to Madison
15:17
Speaker 1: Force at Fox eight. Here's a timeline. On January five
15:21
Speaker 1: thirty pm, Joseph Wilson got a text from his wife
15:24
Speaker 1: saying something happened when swaddling Skylar. She mentioned a problem
15:27
Speaker 1: with the child's arms, an hour and fifteen minutes later,
15:30
Speaker 1: at six forty five, she put Skylar down for the
15:33
Speaker 1: night in his wagon they used as a bed. Fifteen
15:36
Speaker 1: to twenty minutes later, the Wilsons heard their four year
15:38
Speaker 1: old wiggling in the bed and went to try to
15:40
Speaker 1: stand him up. Skylar fell over. They tried to give
15:42
Speaker 1: him water, which she rejected after a second sip. Okay,
15:45
Speaker 1: So that's the timeline that we know of that night.
15:50
Speaker 1: You know, I'm learning so much more. I want you
15:53
Speaker 1: to take a listen now to WFM wise Grace Holland.
15:57
Speaker 1: She also sent him a picture of him wrapped in
15:59
Speaker 1: a sheet, facedown on the floor. Duct tape held Schuyler
16:04
Speaker 1: to the floor. Former foster parents filed a report to
16:07
Speaker 1: DSS concerning the child and his siblings well being. She
16:12
Speaker 1: says Jody Wilson told her about the swaddling, food restriction,
16:15
Speaker 1: and exorcisms of the kids. Swallowing the child, the child
16:20
Speaker 1: is so big, you have to wrap it up in
16:21
Speaker 1: a sheet, duck taping the child to the floor face down.
16:26
Speaker 1: Now I'm hearing about food restriction, an exorcism. Guys joining
16:32
Speaker 1: me right now. In addition to Kurt Nurmi, high profile
16:36
Speaker 1: lawyer out of California, author of Trapped with a miss
16:39
Speaker 1: Arius on Amazon, and Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, founder, director
16:46
Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute, and star of a
16:48
Speaker 1: Hitney podcast, Zone seven. I want to go to a
16:52
Speaker 1: special guest joining us, Reverend doctor Bob Larson, founder of
16:57
Speaker 1: Spiritual Freedom Churches International and the author of a book
17:01
Speaker 1: of religious cults, a New Age Spirituality. He's on Facebook
17:07
Speaker 1: at Bob Larson The Real Exorcist. Doctor Lawson, you have
17:13
Speaker 1: told me that the first time you observed what you
17:17
Speaker 1: believe to be a person, a female possessed by a demon,
17:23
Speaker 1: and the way you described it was very convincing to me,
17:26
Speaker 1: was several years ago. Could you recount your experience for
17:32
Speaker 1: us well? Of that particular account, this was the first
17:35
Speaker 1: time that I actually ever encountered a case of demotic possession. Now,
17:41
Speaker 1: I had previously traveled to the Far East throughout Asia
17:46
Speaker 1: and Africa and witness possession ceremonies there, which are pretty difficult,
17:51
Speaker 1: and I'd seen him in Haiti and other places. Okay,
17:54
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, doctor Lawson. It's hard for me to compare
17:58
Speaker 1: our religious foundations and our medical system to an exorcism
18:06
Speaker 1: in Haiti. Okay, tell me something that I can understand. Okay, Well,
18:11
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say is these sort of things
18:13
Speaker 1: are accepted more readily in non Western cultures, But in
18:17
Speaker 1: non Western culture it's very difficult for people to wrap
18:20
Speaker 1: their brains around this kind of spiritualogy. But when you
18:24
Speaker 1: have a teenage girl who is speaking in a very
18:30
Speaker 1: distinct accent that she has never really she's never traveled
18:35
Speaker 1: me England, she doesn't know anything about how to speak
18:38
Speaker 1: in a high class British accent, and this alien voice
18:42
Speaker 1: coming out of her body and saying I own her,
18:46
Speaker 1: she belongs to me, and I make love to her.
18:49
Speaker 1: You either accept that as a reality or you just
18:52
Speaker 1: assume it's some type of psychoast. I stop right there,
18:54
Speaker 1: Reverend doctor Bob Larson. Let me ask you a few
18:56
Speaker 1: quick questions. How old was this young woman woman happened
19:00
Speaker 1: to be fifteen years of age. Do you think she
19:03
Speaker 1: had the intellectual capability or the sophistication to pull off
19:13
Speaker 1: faking it? But you absolutely, I mean that would be
19:16
Speaker 1: like my daughter and son, their toys just turned fifteen.
19:20
Speaker 1: No way could they have an extended period of faking
19:25
Speaker 1: demonic possession. To me, they just couldn't do it. I
19:28
Speaker 1: don't know that I could do it, but certainly they
19:30
Speaker 1: couldn't do it. Of course, I've meant many people who
19:32
Speaker 1: have tried to take it, but she wasn't attempting to
19:35
Speaker 1: take it. And this has become a very important part
19:38
Speaker 1: of her life. This started out earlier with her involvement
19:42
Speaker 1: with bugia boards and other types of demonic practices, but
19:47
Speaker 1: then it escalated to this kind of demonic cohabitation situation,
19:52
Speaker 1: and she was very real and very serious about it.
19:55
Speaker 1: The voice that spoke was not her voice. We had
19:58
Speaker 1: other witnesses who were there. So this jarred my world
20:01
Speaker 1: when I saw that this was happening in America. What
20:05
Speaker 1: was the most severe possession? You've ever seen? The most
20:09
Speaker 1: severe possession? And there would be several that I would
20:13
Speaker 1: point to are cases that have required continuing spiritual intervention
20:20
Speaker 1: and a psychological intervention lasting for months. And in some
20:25
Speaker 1: of these cases, there are supernatural things that take place,
20:31
Speaker 1: the individual knowing things that they were speaking of, things
20:34
Speaker 1: that they could not have known, citing dates and times
20:38
Speaker 1: and places, sometimes hundreds of years ago, things which defy logic.
20:46
Speaker 1: There's demply no way to understand it outside of a
20:49
Speaker 1: supernatural explanation, And you know why people always wanted to
20:53
Speaker 1: why be seeing people? LEVI take sure I've seen that
20:56
Speaker 1: kind of thing, but the possession usually exists, and I'm
21:00
Speaker 1: more subtle level. We've lived in a rationalistic environment in
21:05
Speaker 1: which scientism has taken control of thinking of most people.
21:11
Speaker 1: That's not entirely bad, because it's given us a lot
21:14
Speaker 1: of great advances. But there still is a realm of spirituality,
21:17
Speaker 1: of good and evil, of angels and demons that exists
21:21
Speaker 1: in a parallel state of being. And when people do
21:27
Speaker 1: things which open them their lives up to it, they
21:30
Speaker 1: somehow open the door. These demons come in, And the
21:34
Speaker 1: classic term is possession. It doesn't mean the person is
21:37
Speaker 1: a zombie or a robot. Are you suggesting that the
21:40
Speaker 1: person opens the door to be inhabited by a demon? Yes? Okay.
21:45
Speaker 1: Can I tell you something that my grandmother said. If
21:48
Speaker 1: the devil knocks on your door, do not open the door.
21:53
Speaker 1: Next thing you know, he'll come in for dinner, then
21:55
Speaker 1: he'll be sleeping over. Then you can't get rid of him.
21:58
Speaker 1: And that applies to everything drugs, pornography, gambling, alcohol, Once
22:03
Speaker 1: agains the hold of you. It stays. You can't get
22:07
Speaker 1: rid of it, Okay, doctor Reverend, doctor Bob Larson, please
22:12
Speaker 1: don't move, but yes, no, doctor Larson. I assume that
22:16
Speaker 1: exorcisms do not end up with the victim. Dad at
22:20
Speaker 1: the hospital. Well over a span of five decades of
22:24
Speaker 1: having done about fifty thousand exorcisms, and I do this
22:30
Speaker 1: on a regular basis, six seven eight times a day,
22:33
Speaker 1: virtually and in person. I've never had a person die,
22:37
Speaker 1: nobody even come close to, okay, and had never done
22:41
Speaker 1: in exorcism on a child of that age. You simply,
22:46
Speaker 1: in good conscience, would not do that because it requires
22:49
Speaker 1: the cognitive response of the person to interact with you
22:53
Speaker 1: and tell you what's going on. Kurent nermi joining me
22:56
Speaker 1: as I mentioned high profile lawyer analysts. I'm sure you're
23:00
Speaker 1: not proud of this, but I have to put it
23:02
Speaker 1: in there. Represented Jody Arius, the murderer who killed Travis Alexander,
23:08
Speaker 1: her boyfriend, and he did so over his own objection.
23:12
Speaker 1: The judge required him to continue representing her. He's written
23:15
Speaker 1: the book Trapped with miss Arius Kirk. Okay, when I
23:19
Speaker 1: went into the law, I did not believe in a
23:22
Speaker 1: devout methodist. I did not believe in exorcisms. I did
23:26
Speaker 1: not believe in psychics until fast forward Kirk and I
23:32
Speaker 1: encounter them prosecuting. But I would never ever, ever put
23:35
Speaker 1: one on the stand because I thought if somebody on
23:37
Speaker 1: the jury didn't believe in it, then I and my
23:41
Speaker 1: case would lose credibility and I'd lose the case and
23:45
Speaker 1: the bag I would walk. But Kirk, I feel it
23:50
Speaker 1: safer to deal with things. Everybody on the jury understands
23:55
Speaker 1: science DNA fingerprints, but I believer. When I started working
24:03
Speaker 1: with Larry King and hosting his show one night, he
24:06
Speaker 1: didn't feel like coming in and I hosted for I
24:08
Speaker 1: mean it was about psychic detectives, which I thought, oh no,
24:13
Speaker 1: but one of them really turned me around. There's no
24:16
Speaker 1: way she could have known what the information that came
24:20
Speaker 1: to her, and she cracked a murder and she was
24:25
Speaker 1: wrongfully arrested by LAPD and she took them to court
24:29
Speaker 1: and got a I think a million dollar judgment because
24:32
Speaker 1: they also thought she has to be the killer. How
24:34
Speaker 1: would she know where the body is? It was amazing.
24:38
Speaker 1: Now I steal did his day. Would not put it
24:40
Speaker 1: in front of a jury because I don't expect anybody
24:42
Speaker 1: else to believe what I saw happen. What do you
24:45
Speaker 1: take what do you make of what you're hearing? Kurt?
24:48
Speaker 1: You can never take this to a jury that someone
24:52
Speaker 1: had a demon that had to be exercised. That's right.
24:55
Speaker 1: No matter what we think of this, no matter what
24:57
Speaker 1: we think of exorcism, the faults in this treatment. The
25:01
Speaker 1: law does not recognize exorcism alternative THERAPI as a defense
25:06
Speaker 1: to a crime. And we're talking about the crime of
25:08
Speaker 1: murder here. We have danced around this a little bit,
25:11
Speaker 1: but this is really we can call the exorcism a
25:14
Speaker 1: tongue alternative therapy. I'm calling it murder one, and I'm
25:18
Speaker 1: calling it felony murder, with the underlying felony being child abuse. Hey,
25:24
Speaker 1: current Narmy, take a listen to Grace holland Wfmy doctors
25:30
Speaker 1: say the little boy's brain was injured by a lack
25:33
Speaker 1: of oxygen caused by some type of restriction, according to
25:38
Speaker 1: search warrants. Hours before calling nine to one one, Jody
25:41
Speaker 1: Wilson texted her husband saying something happened while swaddling Skylar.
25:46
Speaker 1: They found wrist and ankle restraints and took lots of
25:49
Speaker 1: digital records from computers and phones, including home surveillance video
25:53
Speaker 1: that shows abuse. The documents also say during a search
25:56
Speaker 1: of the Wilson's home they found a computer and journal
26:00
Speaker 1: documenting acts committed against the children. They also found ankle
26:05
Speaker 1: and wrist braces and straps that told investigators that those
26:09
Speaker 1: were used to restrain Skyler during the swaddling process. Okay,
26:13
Speaker 1: let me understand this, Cheryl McCollum, founder Cold Case Research Institute.
26:17
Speaker 1: In addition to swaddling the four year old boy who
26:21
Speaker 1: was so big that had to swaddle him, I'm using
26:23
Speaker 1: air quotes for that with a sheet, not a baby blanket,
26:27
Speaker 1: a sheet that they needed hand and wrist restraints for
26:32
Speaker 1: this four year old child, the one they don't include
26:35
Speaker 1: on the website, and that also includes duct tape, Nancy,
26:39
Speaker 1: so his wrists and ankles are bound and restrained, as
26:42
Speaker 1: well as duct tape over the sheets that he's wrapped
26:45
Speaker 1: in on to the floor so he has secured completely.
26:51
Speaker 1: He would not be able to be mobile at all.
26:54
Speaker 1: And they also gated his room, they starved him, and
26:58
Speaker 1: they had what they call sensive alone time. This tud
27:03
Speaker 1: was abused. And you know that I always tell you
27:08
Speaker 1: when I respond to a crime scene. I start outside.
27:12
Speaker 1: The first thing I noticed about that house is you
27:15
Speaker 1: would never know five children lived there. There's no swing sets,
27:21
Speaker 1: no basketball gold, no toys, no kiddie pool, no just
27:25
Speaker 1: little shoe left outside. There's nothing that would indicate five
27:30
Speaker 1: children are there. And all the curtains and blinds are closed.
27:36
Speaker 1: This was a house of horrors. And not only that, Sure,
27:39
Speaker 1: what do you make of the fact that there is
27:41
Speaker 1: videotape surveillance from with in the house showing prior abuse
27:45
Speaker 1: on this four year old little boy? Well, you know,
27:48
Speaker 1: she took all the cameras down. Then she heard that
27:50
Speaker 1: you know, film SD cards whatever they're called. This was
27:54
Speaker 1: somebody so twisted she not only was doing it, wanted
27:58
Speaker 1: to watch it. Yeah, understand that, Karen Stark, We need
28:01
Speaker 1: to shrink what about it, Karen, Not only were they abusing,
28:05
Speaker 1: and we've had another case like this, remember Jackie, where
28:09
Speaker 1: they were that the parents were actually filming the abuse
28:13
Speaker 1: on the child and the other children would see it.
28:16
Speaker 1: Were too afraid they were traumatized too. They would see
28:20
Speaker 1: the abuse on the one child and were too afraid
28:22
Speaker 1: to say anything about it. Karen start, well, I hate
28:25
Speaker 1: to say this Nancy. But the truth of the matter
28:27
Speaker 1: is they were enjoying watching the abuse, and they had
28:31
Speaker 1: been advised, but it was okay to use these different methods.
28:36
Speaker 1: Why are you saying they were advised. It was their
28:39
Speaker 1: decision to do it, But they were paying attention to
28:42
Speaker 1: somebody who was advocating that they used these techniques to
28:46
Speaker 1: get the children to get out of a psychological attachment.
28:52
Speaker 1: Becker joining me dailymail dot com. What is she talking about?
28:55
Speaker 1: He's talking about this woman named Nancy Thomas. And Nancy
28:59
Speaker 1: Thomas is a self described parenting expert who encourages or
29:07
Speaker 1: advocates something called attachment therapy, which is I mean, the
29:12
Speaker 1: psycho psychologists can definitely jump in on that. It's not great.
29:16
Speaker 1: But the thing that Nancy Thomas talked about worse, things
29:20
Speaker 1: like waddling, And according to her website, Nancy Thomas has
29:25
Speaker 1: actually talks about something called RAD which is reactive attachment disorder,
29:31
Speaker 1: which basically talks about how the child looks at people
29:36
Speaker 1: like enemies and they're manipulatives and they can abuse people.
29:40
Speaker 1: There's no medical background here, there's absolutely this woman is
29:46
Speaker 1: not a doctor, she's not a psychiatrist, she's not a therapist.
29:49
Speaker 1: She has no expertise, and she advocates really dangerous parenting practices. Okay,
29:56
Speaker 1: hold on, Karen Stark, Is that who you're talking about?
29:59
Speaker 1: Karen's exactly who I'm talking about. Nancy. Well, I guess
30:03
Speaker 1: the child does look at everybody alike there an enemy
30:05
Speaker 1: because his own parents are torturing him. But listen, I
30:09
Speaker 1: want you to know this about her, that she has
30:11
Speaker 1: a note in the things that she's advocating, she herself rights.
30:16
Speaker 1: Some of the strategies outlined in this workshop may be
30:20
Speaker 1: considered inhumane and unethical by many child protective agencies and
30:26
Speaker 1: can result in an investigation. What moron would read that
30:30
Speaker 1: and follow it? When that's written at the bottom, this
30:33
Speaker 1: can land you. It defacts. Wait and Nancy, this woman,
30:37
Speaker 1: this woman, Nancy Thomas wants nothing to do with this case.
30:40
Speaker 1: She was contracted by a local reporter in the area
30:43
Speaker 1: and she released a statement basically saying she has no
30:45
Speaker 1: knowledge of the incident, can't give a comment, and will
30:47
Speaker 1: assist law enforcement. So Nancy Thomas is trying to distance
30:50
Speaker 1: herself from this couple. It's her website still up. Yeah, yeah,
30:54
Speaker 1: it is, Yes, it is. I'm very surprised to hear
30:57
Speaker 1: that crime stories with Nancy. Guys, we're learning more. Take
31:17
Speaker 1: a listen to our friend Dave mack a crime online
31:20
Speaker 1: dot com. On January sixth, one day after Skylar Wilson
31:24
Speaker 1: was taken to Brenner Children's Hospital and nearly one month
31:27
Speaker 1: after his former foster mother filed a complaint with Social
31:30
Speaker 1: Services fearing for his life, the Surrey County Department and
31:33
Speaker 1: Social Services contacted the Surrey County Sheriff's Office about Skylar Wilson.
31:37
Speaker 1: A doctor explained to a detective with the Surrey County
31:40
Speaker 1: Sheriff's Office that Skylar had a hypoxic brain injury. This
31:44
Speaker 1: is caused with a restriction that prevents oxygen to the brain.
31:47
Speaker 1: According to the arrest warrant, Jody Wilson was using a
31:50
Speaker 1: swaddling technique learned from a self described professional therapeutic parent,
31:54
Speaker 1: Nancy Thomas. The doctor who had previously spoken to Joseph
31:57
Speaker 1: Wilson told the detective that Skylar's brain injury He's were
32:00
Speaker 1: consistent with too much restriction used during this so called
32:04
Speaker 1: swaddling technique, plus the exorcisms, plus the withholding a food.
32:10
Speaker 1: Doctor Tim Gallagher joining me out of Florida the founder
32:14
Speaker 1: of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. What is
32:18
Speaker 1: hypoxy or hypoxic brain injury? Hypoxic brain injury is when
32:25
Speaker 1: there is a lack of oxygen that goes to the brain.
32:28
Speaker 1: The brain is very the brain cells, the individual brain
32:31
Speaker 1: cells are very oxygen hungry, and once they are deprived
32:36
Speaker 1: of this oxygen, they simply die. If enough of these
32:40
Speaker 1: brain cells die because of lack of oxygen, the patient
32:43
Speaker 1: will go into a coma and then ultimately they will
32:46
Speaker 1: die from that. Guys, we are also floored with the
32:51
Speaker 1: possibility that this child could have been saved. Take a
32:58
Speaker 1: listen to more from crime online dot Com. The former
33:02
Speaker 1: foster parent of Skylar and his brother remained active in
33:05
Speaker 1: their lives even after they left her care and were
33:08
Speaker 1: adopted by the Wilsons. She would check in at least
33:11
Speaker 1: every other month to see how they were doing. Jody
33:14
Speaker 1: Wilson told her about the swaddling, pouching, food restriction, refusal
33:20
Speaker 1: of Skyler's brother to walk by himself, the gating of
33:24
Speaker 1: Skylar in a room for excessive alone time, and the
33:28
Speaker 1: exorcisms of both children. Skylar's former foster mother talked to
33:33
Speaker 1: the Surrey County Department of Social Services about what she
33:36
Speaker 1: had been told, and she was directed to make a
33:38
Speaker 1: formal report. She filed that complaint that very day, December seventh,
33:43
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. I've never heard the phrase pouching. What
33:47
Speaker 1: is pouching? To you, Karen start or to you joining
33:54
Speaker 1: us from delimail dot com with us is Caitlin Becker?
33:59
Speaker 1: What is pouching? It seems like one of you know, honestly,
34:03
Speaker 1: I did a little bit of research on this and
34:04
Speaker 1: not a lot of stuff comes up, and it seems
34:07
Speaker 1: like something you would do in attachment. The attachment therapy
34:11
Speaker 1: another another form of restricting and it almost sounds like
34:14
Speaker 1: a kangaroo pouch. Oh that is That's what I thought
34:18
Speaker 1: of to start with, But I was hoping I was wrong.
34:21
Speaker 1: So apparently they put the children or Skyler at least,
34:25
Speaker 1: into some sort of a pouch and leave him. Okay,
34:29
Speaker 1: everything I'm hearing sounds like extreme psychological torture. Karen Stark. Oh,
34:37
Speaker 1: without a doubt, Nancy and these techniques. She has a
34:41
Speaker 1: whole description the woman that they were listening to of
34:45
Speaker 1: sitting on a child and staying on the child until
34:49
Speaker 1: the child stopped screaming and This is something that she
34:52
Speaker 1: is advocating that these children need to be taught that
34:57
Speaker 1: the parents are in charge, and they he had to
35:00
Speaker 1: say please and thank you and may I and an
35:03
Speaker 1: alarm on their room, alarm in their room at night,
35:07
Speaker 1: so they cannot lead under any circumstances. Let me ask you,
35:11
Speaker 1: Caitlin Becker. Let me make sure I understand the timeline.
35:14
Speaker 1: So Skyler goes to the hospital and dies. He goes
35:21
Speaker 1: on January the fifth or sixth. I believe he dies
35:24
Speaker 1: on the ninth. Is it true? Did I hear this correctly?
35:28
Speaker 1: That the foster mom who had Skyler and his brother
35:33
Speaker 1: before the defendants adopted him, she filed a complaint with
35:40
Speaker 1: the facts on December seventh, so two days after Skyler died,
35:44
Speaker 1: and then two days after he was first I think
35:47
Speaker 1: twice this woman reached out this former foster parent to
35:50
Speaker 1: express concern about how Jody and Joe Wilson were parenting
35:55
Speaker 1: Skyler and his brother. You know, kurtin Army. Sometimes I
35:58
Speaker 1: just want to put dynamite under defacts and blow the
36:03
Speaker 1: whole thing up. She first reported about exorcisms, which you
36:10
Speaker 1: heard doctor Bob Larson explaining about restricting food and restraining
36:19
Speaker 1: and swaddling on December seven. The boy went into convulsions
36:27
Speaker 1: on jan six. He died a few days later in
36:30
Speaker 1: the hospital and de facts did nothing hurt and army. Yeah,
36:35
Speaker 1: And that's really where the problem was, because this whole
36:37
Speaker 1: strategy had been preventable, no matter what we dressed it
36:40
Speaker 1: up as alternative therapy. The food deprivation, the movement restriction,
36:45
Speaker 1: all these supports and straps and braces that were readily
36:49
Speaker 1: found when they went into the home could easily been
36:51
Speaker 1: found if there was an intervention beforehand. During these three
36:55
Speaker 1: or four weeks between the initial report and the death,
36:58
Speaker 1: this could probably have been prevented. You, Well, it wasn't
37:02
Speaker 1: just the foster parent, the mom, the foster mom who
37:06
Speaker 1: suspected she did something about it. I can't say the
37:10
Speaker 1: same for the neighbors. Take a listen to Madison forcy
37:13
Speaker 1: Fox eight. One neighbor who didn't want to show her
37:16
Speaker 1: face on camera, couldn't stop crying as she talked about
37:19
Speaker 1: four year old Skylar and wondered if she missed signs
37:23
Speaker 1: of abuse. But they were just so pale, so white,
37:26
Speaker 1: so tiny, I always wondered, But I don't, you don't
37:30
Speaker 1: know one thing that sticks with her not seeing Skylar
37:32
Speaker 1: outside is often before she learned of his death. Breaks
37:35
Speaker 1: my heart because somebody would take a chield that they
37:39
Speaker 1: tried to raise, and all of a sudden they picked
37:43
Speaker 1: up one child to hurt. You know, I first noticed
37:46
Speaker 1: that when I was prosecuting, oh I was having to
37:49
Speaker 1: retry and murder case and had gone up on a
37:52
Speaker 1: peal long before, when I was still in law school
37:56
Speaker 1: and I met the family of the victim and they
37:59
Speaker 1: were all adult now, and one of the female adults
38:03
Speaker 1: had been out of a huge family of like twelve children,
38:06
Speaker 1: had been the one that was beaten and molested and
38:09
Speaker 1: is treated none of the others. I didn't know what
38:12
Speaker 1: that meant. Bent now thanks a lot to Karen start
38:16
Speaker 1: explaining it to me. Very often one child will be
38:19
Speaker 1: singled out. Cheryl McCollum joining me from a coal case
38:23
Speaker 1: Investigative Research Institute. Cheryl, what about that? Now the neighbors
38:28
Speaker 1: are crying boo hoo, wha and why? But they did nothing,
38:32
Speaker 1: They did nothing, and now the child's did Nancy's. Like
38:35
Speaker 1: I said, before, you could tell from the outside of
38:37
Speaker 1: the house something wasn't exactly right. There's no way you
38:41
Speaker 1: would ever think five children live there. But I will
38:44
Speaker 1: tell you something that really shocked me, because when you
38:47
Speaker 1: look at what the police confiscated from the home, there
38:51
Speaker 1: are binders and notebooks and SD cards from cameras and
38:56
Speaker 1: surveillance cameras and laptops. This woman camp a journal, a
39:02
Speaker 1: living diary of what she was doing to these children.
39:05
Speaker 1: And she couldn't hide it. She even told the foster
39:10
Speaker 1: mother what she was doing. She wasn't trying to hide
39:13
Speaker 1: this at all from anybody. Just imagine the terror that
39:17
Speaker 1: that little boy lived through, endured until his death. What
39:23
Speaker 1: a horrible death, being restrained, unable to move, unable to breathe,
39:28
Speaker 1: face down on the floor, secured with duct tape, having
39:33
Speaker 1: lived through the Lord only knows how many exorcisms. This
39:37
Speaker 1: was a slow murder, a slow murder. To Caitlyn Becker,
39:41
Speaker 1: Senior reporter, Dailymail dot Com, where does the case stand now, Well,
39:46
Speaker 1: the couple was arrested and charged. They have had their
39:49
Speaker 1: first appearance and they're expected back in court in March.
39:54
Speaker 1: But Nancy, there may be a little bit of a
39:56
Speaker 1: delay here. One of doctor Joe Wilson's performer Lees is
40:01
Speaker 1: in touch with the Wilson family, and she said to
40:05
Speaker 1: a local reporter that they're on their fourth attorney, possibly
40:08
Speaker 1: their fifth attorney coming soon, so there could be a
40:12
Speaker 1: delay based on representation. Yeah, guys, take a listen to
40:15
Speaker 1: Grace Holland wfmy Joseph and Jody Wilson are facing murder
40:20
Speaker 1: charges in the death of four year old Skylar Wilson.
40:23
Speaker 1: This is a there's a stack of search warrants related
40:26
Speaker 1: to this case. The Surrey County Sheriff's Office and the
40:29
Speaker 1: SBI are looking for evidence at the home, workplaces, and
40:33
Speaker 1: Department of Social Services records relating to possible reports of abuse.
40:38
Speaker 1: This all started when Joseph Wilson called nine one reporting
40:42
Speaker 1: that Skylar was having a seizure. A Surrey County detective
40:46
Speaker 1: says a woman could be heard in the background saying
40:49
Speaker 1: it's my fault. Ems says the child wasn't breathing when
40:53
Speaker 1: they arrived and he was taken to the ICU at
40:55
Speaker 1: Brenner Children's Hospital. He died days later. We wait as
41:00
Speaker 1: justice of the false Nancy Grace satted of Goodbye Fad