Latest / Fire Engineering Podcast / 25 Years After 9/11: Former FDNY Chiefs on Leadership and Brotherhood

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25 Years After 9/11: Former FDNY Chiefs on Leadership and Brotherhood · Fire Engineering Podcast

• Nat Kapustin: From MSA helmets and streamlight flashlights to seek thermal imaging cameras and so much more, the firestore.com has everything you need to serve your community safely and effectively. Hey, good evening, everybody. Welcome to the Backstep. This is Ronnie Kay in New York. That's my partner with the green shirt, Tommy Arnhammer, out in New Mexico. Tommy, what's going on out west? Well, the good news is that the flash floods and mudslides put the fires out. that well, there you go. Okay. There's always a silver lining, right? So you got rid of the wildfires, but other than that, you're good, right? Did you have that flooding near near where you live by you? No, well actually w it rained for a couple of days. Which we really needed because of the drought conditions. But we lucked out this season with with wildland fires occurring in other areas. All right, ten four. All right. Well, we got we're lucky enough tonight, buddy. We got two prominent guests with us tonight, and I'm gonna introduce both of them. I'll start with Chief and Fire Commissioner Sal Cassano. I took his his resume, it's about thirty eight pages and I got it down to a couple of sentences. But Sal Sal star as a young man started off in service of our country. he served a tour in Vietnam. And then after that, you came to the fire department in nineteen sixty nine in New York City. By forty four years of service. S Sal became chief of department post nine eleven and was instrumental in rebuilding the department after nine eleven. he was chief of department I believe for four years and then Took a quick break and then they asked him to be the fire commissioner in New York City. So he did all of that. I know he's got five kids, eleven grandkids. He's a busy guy. And he's he's also in in on the board of directors, the and the executive board of the Tunnel to Towers Foundation and just continuing to do their great work. The gentleman in the red shirt, Tommy Richardson, former chief of department as well, forty two years, got on the job in nineteen eighty. went from probationary fireman to chief of department. Hell held all ranks in between. Chief of training, chief of operations, been a f a volunteer fireman in Deer Park, New York, since nineteen seventy eight. Boy, are you old? serves two terms as chief in Deer Park. went to the Naval Postgraduate School for his master's degree. and basically he has a son on the job now in ladder one thirty eight. And he's got six grandkids, trying to catch up to Cassano with the grandkids. that's okay. So two chiefs, former Chiefs of Department from New York, one and one guy went to the the rank of fire commissioner. We couldn't be more thrilled to have you gentlemen with us on the back step tonight. Thank you for joining Thank you, Ronnie. Thank you for having us. Thank you. Ten four. So so what what I think what we'd like to do is is start start the show with your perspectives and on on the twenty fifth anniversary of nine eleven. you know, just we just had that recently and there was a lot going on in the city. Manhattan was packed that day. right up until the night the nighttime where where the pipe band comes down to ten and ten and does their thing. I I went this year to see it and there were people from all over the world came to that thing. There were firefighters from all over the world. so it was it was huge. I'll start with you Sal if you want to give us a few minutes on your perspective of twenty five years. This year was a little tougher than than most. I I f I felt like you know every year around September eleventh we get little anxious and jittery maybe in August, knowing that the anniversary is coming up. But this year it started probably in January. You know, people were starting to realize, hey, we're gonna make some documentaries, we're gonna make podcasts. So it started really early this year. But i in my mind that was actually a good thing for us because twenty five years later, people are still remembering what happened on that day, September eleventh. as you said the at the World Trade Center that day, it was mobbed. It was more packed than it had ever been. Maybe even after the first anniversary, that first year w it was really packed. But this year it seemed like we couldn't even move. You couldn't get from one part of the site to the other part of the site. I usually wake make my way through the crowd to see the same families that are there, just to talk about, you know, their loved one, what's going on. Somebody's got a new grandkid with them. The kids that were kids that were small now were college. some of them are doctors, like Jerry Barber's son's a doctor now. And you could hardly do that this year because it was so crowded. But actually that's a good thing because people wanted to be with us. And I say us when I talk about the FDNY, the NYPD, the Port Authority, they wanted to be with us in this solemn moment to say, Hey, we haven't forgotten what happened. We haven't forgotten the sacrifices that your people made. Actually you're still making it. I don't tell you, Tommy, that we're losing people every week because of the illnesses that they contracted twenty five years ago. but to a person, every one of us says we wouldn't do any different. We'd still be there, we'd still be trying to rescue as many people as we could out of those buildings. and I t I I took a little different take this year on the anniversary or the commemoration. We always are gonna remember the people we lost, always, because They'll be with us forever. As we say we're never gonna forget, we really mean we're never gonna forget. we're with our families every year. But this year I wanted to focus a little on the people that we saved that day. Twenty almost twenty we don't sure, but we up to twenty five thousand people were saved. That's twenty-five thousand lives that now have children, have grandchildren, have blossomed into different families. So we're talking about thousands and thousands of people that are here today because of sacrifices that our people made. Twenty five years ago. So that was my reflection this year on how many people we actually saved and how they've gone about their lives and how gr and how grateful they are. Believe me, they are grateful for what was done that day by our first responders. And to me that was uplifting to see so many of them that wanted to be at the World Trade Center on that day, that on that solemn day for us. Yeah. Super. Super. Thank you. Chief Richardson, you're up. Thank you, gentlemen. And Chief Cassano, Commissioner Cassano, of course, he was there that day. They he was there, and I just told Ron and Tom, I just fe finished reading a book, Rising from Ground Zero. I know you were interviewed for it. There were several people that were interviewed for it. And as the twenty fifth anniversary has just passed, I just finished reading the book and there were stories in that book. That I had no idea, honestly, from people like yourself and other chiefs that were there. I did know did not know many of the personal accounts and and and what actually happened that day as it relates to the leadership and the job. But this year I I kind of took a little different path or journey this year. I I attended The jobs twenty fifth anniversary ceremony out in Staten Island. I went to that. and of course it was it was beautifully done. On nine eleven itself, I didn't go into the city. I was asked to speak at an event. I have a I have a home, a second home in Pennsylvania, in a community in Pennsylvania, and there's a bunch of retired members that live there and they Built a beautiful nine eleven memorial. Boss, you probably know these guys. Ted Ralfing. Remember Ted Rolfing? Of course I know. Ted Ralfing, a guy, a guy named Dennis Asher. Dennis. Dennis was the captain of 28 Engine. a guy named Bob Wiegand. Bob Wiegand is the guy, he's the brains behind this nine eleven memorial. Staten Islander. Yeah, Staten Islander, right, exactly. And just just just tremendous, tremendous human beings and They built this beautiful memorial and Bob called me a few months ago and said, Hey Tom, would you come and speak this year on 9-11? And I I I couldn't say no to him. I just couldn't do it. I couldn't say no. So I went. And it was a beautiful ceremony. it's a smaller community, of course. It's in the mountains in Pennsylvania. And a few hundred people there. But what I did speak about that day is, you know, my reflection on twenty five years ago. I was not there that day. I came in on the recall. I was off that morning. And, you know, I was working out in Queens at the time and I didn't get to the site till the following morning. And I got detailed back to special operations. I was working out in a battalion in Queens. And I just reflected on the time I spent working down there several months working in special operations and I kinda took the time to to tell some of the folks what I remembered and I tried like like the commissioner said too, I tried to remember some of the good things that that came out of that. Like I'm sure he remembers I'll never forget reporting for duty every morning as you walk down to the site on West Street. People on both sides of the street with signs how much they loved us and how the whole country came together to support us. It was unbelievable. So that was Something I I will never ever forget that. And then I tell people I was a battalion chief and I was I was only a chief for about a year. And probably some of the most stressful moments I ever spent were down at the World Trade Center as a fire chief. You know, I I could stand in front of a burning building any day of the week, but down there because of all of the emotion as you're supervising firefighters on a pile as we were, you know, trying to recover Our brothers and sisters, and and the civilians. And the other, it it sounds crazy, but what what I what I had total respect for is how every human being that was recovered from that site, every part of a human being that was recovered from that site was treated with total dignity, total respect. When we found People, we put them in a Stokes basket, we covered them with American flag because quite frankly, they were all patriots. They were all patriots. And the other thing I tell people as I look back on that day, three hundred and forty three firefighters, twenty-three police officers, NYPD, thirty-seven Port Authority. Most of the people that died that day were civilians. They were regular people, man. Just went to work. Firefighters, police officers, we went and did our job. Of our guys and gals went and did their job. But the majority of the people that that w were there that day, the b the people in the Pentagon, the people on the planes, the people in Shanksville, Pennsylvania that came down in that plane, they were just everyday people, man. Went to work, went on a plane to go to work or to go on vacation, and they lost their lives, you know. And I always I always I always repeat the number. Two thousand nine hundred seventy-seven people died that day. And most of them were were regular folks. could have been out any one of our families. And but I'll I'll always be proud of the department on how we operated at that site. Of course there were ups and there were downs, there were struggles, interagency stuff, but at the end of the day, everybody that we found we was treated with total respect, total dignity and respect. And you know, so I tried To reflect on some of the good things that came out of that. the last thing I'll say, it has stuck with me for 25 years. I was working at the pile one night, and Commissioner Cassano will remember Eddie Higgins, Captain Eddie Higgins. He was my first captain on the job. His son Timmy was killed that day. He was a lieutenant in squad two fifty-two. I worked with Tim when I was in rescue too. His brothers were there that night. It was early in the evening. His brother Mike, his brother Joe, and his brother Bob. They were there. We were we would we were searching and searching and they were there, on the pile like everybody else, and they had to leave. And they left when they were leaving. They said, Hey Tommy, if you find Timmy tonight, you you gotta call us. We wanna come back. We're coming right back. Sure enough, a couple of hours later, we found Tim. We we had found some other guys from two hundred fifty two. So or or you know things from two fifty two and we found Timmy and I called him on the phone. I called him on the phone. I'll never forget it. I called him on the phone and they came back. But we waited till they came back so that they could carry him out. And to the day that his father died, he died a few years ago at the age of eighty nine, every time I saw that guy, we'll never forget what you did for us that night. Because I was getting some heat from the incident command post. You know, what are you guys doing up there? What's taking you so long? And we were trying to stall and wait for these guys to get back. But that's how it went down there. We called companies when they we found members, right? The companies came down with their rigs and they carried their brother out. So as as sad as that was, I I I found that to be refreshing. and I and I'll never forget that. It was it was something that has stuck in my mind all these years. Yeah, th thanks, Tom. You know, I you s talking about you you heard stories now that you haven't heard before. Th there were there was fifty million stories surrounding this thing, I I I'll give you a quick one. I I have a a a kid cousin. she was a vice president of the bank, you know, and she was at work seven thirty every morning. Every morning. She would get in, she was the boss. She'd get in there, she'd make coffee for the staff. Shoot and her husband, her boyfriend at the time, they were living together in Manhattan. he traveled and then she had to take out the garbage and walk the dog and she's all pissed off. She's a little princess, you know. And she comes out, she's late. For her, she was late. She came out of the subway at a quarter to nine and the building was on fire. It and it hit it hit where she worked. so just those there's a million fate stories. And it's it probably goes back to when if guys made mutuals that day and all that other stuff, that that fate thing. But yeah, so I so she and she went on, she got married, she had three kids, like you were saying, you know, those families that were saved, so to speak. You know, and her kids are grown up now and and you know, they're living happily ever after. ironically About four or five years ago she gets she gets a phone call from the NYPD. they're living in Charlotte, North Carolina. Are you so-and-so? She says, Yeah. He says, we've been we, for twenty years they've been sifting through all the rubble at at the at the landfill. they look they were looking for body parts and and DNA. And they they found her her credit card that was in her desk. They found the credit card in in the rubble. They said, D do you want it? She said, Yes, send it to me. And she just wrapped it up and put it away. But so there's a billion stories around nine eleven that we never heard. You know, and and then as you talk to people and as time goes on, I mean, I think the good news is with this book, Tommy, that you were talking about, we're able to capture the history. It's it's like when they're talking to the World War Two guys, you know, on the History Channel. They're trying to capture all of that history and get all the stories written down on paper. So we have it. so we have it. So thank thank you both for your perspective on on nine eleven and the twenty-fifth anniversary. We know I just so today, this afternoon, a few hours ago, I'm wearing the same shirt I got on now. I'm in this Italian market. We're getting dinner. We're gonna go have dinner with my daughter and my her husband and a couple of the grandkids. And the guy on the other side of the counter sees my shirt. He says, I love your shirt. He says, Hey, did you know Jimmy Amato? I said If it was Captain Jimmy Amato, I knew Jimmy Amato. he passed on nine eleven, right? He says, Yeah, that was my cousin. So this is a couple of hours ago. In the mil I w I'm in his market and this guy was a Marine and went into the service after nine eleven. But is that crazy or what? It was nuts. It was nuts. So it's just bless you, whoever that was. God bless. Mrs. Arnhammer. so Mrs. Arnhammer. Okay, per per perfect. So but but I I I did again, it's it's good that we're capturing this because it's history. It's a big part of history and it has to be captured and the written word is important because that's what's gonna be passed on to people that come after us. So it this is Ronnie it's so important because the more we say names, the more they stay alive. Like you just said. Absolutely. Yep, yeah. I mean so he's re he's being remembered today. Timmy Higgins, he's being remembered today. It it's so important that we keep saying these names so that as long as you say somebody's name, they'll never die. They'll always be with us. In in my last year my last year as chief in Wilton, Connecticut, we had a ceremony every year 'cause the guys from Wilton that had responded with a Connecticut team to New York to help out or whatever. So we had a ceremony. And what I did at the very last one before I left there was I I did the same thing, Tom. I I try to pull out the positive. I talked about the the people, the boat lift. The boat lift and and what the what the the the the Herculean effort on on behalf of the the air traffic controllers around the United States to try to ground I don't know how many was it forty thousand flights to try to get them on the ground and just these little things and then talked about how Manhattan was starting to rebuild downtown. You know, the the there's more restaurants, the hotels are rebuilt, people are coming back and all that stuff. So I I think talking about the resiliency and and the bounce back is is as important. and as remembering all those people. You know what I learned right before nine eleven this year, there's one hundred million Americans that were not born on nine eleven. One hundred million. That's almost a third of our country population that were not born on nine eleven. So that's why it's important it it's incumbent upon us through through the written word, but also to tell the stories, right? And I know Commissioner Cassano's daughter just started a program at Staten Island in the schools, right? We had a great on September eighteenth we had a beautiful ceremony. Commissioner Balsignor was there, Johnny Esposito was there, and we had first graders and we introduced them to September eleventh, not in the harshest way, but we introduced them. I talked about Pete Fancy a little bit. That was probably the most difficult part was put talk Pete who we lost, but we want to introduce kids to when you have a memory of somebody, you can put them in your mind and they'll never go away. And these were first grades. And I have to tell you it was amazing because when when Billy Arsy, our you know, one of our ceremonial guys started the national anthem, on queue, the first graders all sang the national anthem. They do that my daughter school. no wow. They sing the national anthem and the Pledge of Allegiance every day. Awesome. When that happened, the commissioner says, I never heard that before. She says I says, Well, it is Staten Island now, you it's a little bit more rare in most places. But it was it was such so the kids have to start learning. We have a lot of their parents weren't even born on September eleventh, some of these kids. We have to get it in the schools, we have to get it on video, we have to get the written word so that fifty years from now We're not gonna be here. At least I know I'm not gonna be here. That well, these stories will be with them so they learn what happened. They have to learn about the heroism, not only the first responders, civilians. The kid like Wells Crowder, the the man with the red bandana who gave up his life to save people. And we we made him an honorary firefighter because when they went to his apartment, his parents, they found the application for the fire department's test coming up. Is that right? yeah. Yeah, it was the applic. When we heard that, this kid's gonna be one of us. We made him an honorary firefighter the head on ESPN because he was a a field hockey player. But those are the stories that we have to keep alive so that they never fade. Yeah, th thank you again for your your both of your perspectives on on nine eleven. much appreciated. we'd like to switch gears now and and to discuss a couple of things that probably as near and dear to you. So we we're interested we're interested in in what it was like when you went through training, when you got hired. Sal, this this goes back a couple of years more than than Tommy, but but if if if you would tell us about your your training and and how it how do you the evolution and what we're doing now and how you know how it all fits in to to to the to the grand scheme of things from your perspective. You want me to start by wonder how to feed the horses or go past that? Well start with the horses. Yeah. Start with the horses. When I when I I was in primary school in November of 69 and it was six weeks and it was six quick weeks. w at that time Vietnam veterans were coming in, World War Two veterans were retiring. So we had two hundred fifty kids every six or eight weeks going through school. It was quick. The instructors were really salty guy salty guys at the time. But they were force feeding us because we had to get in and out. So my training while it started in the fire academy, it really started the firehouse. When we went to the firehouse, had the senior members take you under their wings. We're just the Scots, we still had to carry them in cases. It's time I can't tell you, Ronnie, it's such a more sophisticated job now than it ever has been, which is good. We live in a sophisticated world. when I came on, our first day was a matter of applying a band-aid. That was all we could do. And now these kids are CFR de qualified, a lot of them are EMTs and paramedics. I I think to me that's one of the biggest changes that you saw in the fire service was the amount of medical work that we do. And the amount of medical work that our firefighters are trained in. we save more lives every day through our CFRD runs than we ever do with fights because we go to so many medical runs. And thank God we're there. We're at the forefront of first responder medical runs. I to me, that's one of the biggest changes, the amount of medical work we do. Again, different tools, our bunker gear is much better. the rigs are unbelievable. and Tom was the chief of training, he'll tell you what we did in our training academy. was just unbelievable with all the simulation. Who has a shipboard simulator, an aircraft simulator, subway simulator, high rise simulator? I can go on and on and on. That's all new. And it's the training when you come out of our probable school after eighteen weeks now, I mean you are a lot more seasoned than when I came out in six weeks. And that to me that's the biggest thing is first of all the length of the training and the depth in which we go into our academy. If you get out of our fire academy, you if you pass that academy Ready to go. you you learn a lot in the fire, but you're ready to go because the amount of training that we give you, you come out in the best shape of your life. If you think you went into the fire academy in good shape, you come out in great shape. I mean, we work our kids and I you know, listen, I s I testified in front of city council. your fire it's hard, it's this, it's unfair. I said, You know what's unfair? Sending somebody into a fire without the training that they deserve. That's unfair. That's never gonna happen in New York City because We know how hard a job it is. That's why our academy is so difficult, because it's a difficult job. And Tommy the chief of training, Tommy Galvin was our chief of training forever. they know how important it was to make sure that when you get out of that academy you were ready to go. So and Tommy can talk about training even more than that. Yeah, th Tom Richardson, I I I being you a chief of training, w when you took that over, okay, what did you see behind you and what did you see in front of you? Like what what what was going on be Yeah, afterwards be before and then what did you need to f not fix, but what where where were the improvements? what would where were the gaps? Just like Chief Cassano, my proby school was six weeks, of course. My only difference I I was a volunteer for two or three years. At the least I had half a clue as far as like the nomenclature, the tools. I had a half a clue. Like him, when I went to the firehouse, that was that's where you really learned. But one of the things I think that was and and The chief could talk to it. I looked at the w I always used to look at the wall of all the chiefs of training. It was up in this in the second floor in in the fire academy. And I would argue probably every single chief of training that went through that fire academy or ran training throughout the job were were were quality people. And I think training just continued to evolve and evolve and evolve. And I have to say, particularly post nine eleven. A guy like Tom Galvin, what he did with the borough with the Bureau of Training, he was the chief of training for ten, eleven years, a long time. That's a long time. And he just took it to a whole a whole nother level, as a result of the McKinsey report. there were a lot of things that a lot of recommendations and one of them was to improve training in the officers' ranks, right? So we always had flips. You know, flips when I went was four weeks. Now it's five or six weeks. but we we train captains. Captains go for four weeks. Battalion chiefs go to school for six weeks. the amount of training and the regimen is just tremendous. And the rock is it's believe it or not, y everybody thinks it's big. It's not big, it's small. You know, it's so tight, it's so crowded. When there's a proby class in there, 300 probies, the place is just hopping, hopping, hopping. And what I would say is the people that the Fire Academy, in particular Proby School, the people they bring in to teach probies are always top-notch people today. they interview people, there's certain criteria you have to have, and they bring in top-level people, senior, seasoned firefighters and fire officers. I used to go and sit in the classroom just to observe and I was amazed at how how good the instructors were at their job. You know, they they were excellent. And the hands-on training, probably the most important part of the training is the hands-on. You know, learning how to operate with a mask on and all the kabunker gear. And I think a kids, I was a volley, so I had a little bit of you know, I knew how to w put a gear on, I knew how to put a mask on. I think about kids that come in that don't know anything about the fire department. They know nothing. And they come in and you watch them when they leave, like the commissioner said. It's unbelievable, how prepared they are. But I would do I do say to people a lot of times, when they leave the fire academy, they're they're ready 100%. If you get through that 18 weeks now, you're ready to be a firefighter. But I always I always used to tell people. They're not firefighters, they're probies. We gotta make them firefighters now. When I go to firehouse, that's the the people in the field, that's the senior firefighters, the company commanders, and the officers. Now you gotta take them to the next level. We trained them, we prepared them on how to operate all our policies and procedures, our standard operating procedures. but now you gotta make them into a firefighter, you know, a a a a s you know, a full-fledged, seasoned firefighter. And depending on where you go in the city. Depending how much work you do, it might take a little while. But our Bureau training is tremendous. The level of training and how it's evolved over all these years. And everybody makes it better. You know, I used to talk firefighters that I knew in the field, I used to talk them into coming to be instructors. I said, I'm telling you, I never did it. I used to teach in the Chiefs course and I loved it. Maybe a better chief. I used to tell guys, come and teach at the rock. You'll love it. And I'm telling you, every guy to a man came there and girl said, I loved it. I'm coming back for another class. I'm coming back for two more classes. And when they went back to the field, they said, I'm a better firefighter for what I did here at the fire academy teaching these kids. I thought that was that spoke volumes to me. Just to head on to we we talked about probable school, we talked about the courses for our new lieutenants, chiefs, captains, deputy course now, We we send our staff chiefs and to f the FOME, Fire Rosis Management Institute. But another huge part of the training academy is the companies we bring over every day. The dozens of companies we bring over there every day, whether it's rope training or or whether it's the MOAD, the mother of all drills, or whether it's just track tragedy tools. Every day we have three or four dozen companies between the afternoon and the morning and at night. Coming over. We take him out of the field, we bring him out there, and and and I've I've said this for a long time. What happens in the field is what happens when you do a training. You know, we're as good as we are in the field because we do as good as we are in training. And that's it's such an important aspect of the job that sometimes is overlooked in other jurisdictions, not in the fire FDMY, because we know that as good as you do in the academy, that's what you're gonna do in the field. And you know. Tommy Galvin, Tommy Richardson, Micke Santangelo, Sal Sanson. I mean, I could name the Chiefs of training because they all took part in a l just building on what the next person did. And that's what's so beautiful about it. Is everybody comes there to contribute. You know, when you put fresh eyes on something, it gives you a different perspective. And and that's what fresh eyes does. So let me go back to Chief for a minute. Just a little so Tom was was there. Was there anything major that you needed to do, or was it just little tweaks to keep things moving along and or was it was there anything any landmark stuff that that you need? I I would say I would say little tweaks, but what I really enjoyed when people came up with ideas, different ideas on how to improve training. As an example, I had a couple of guys working there. One guy was like a super, super duper chauffeur, in a two fifty five engine. And another guy was a a captain who said, Chief, we gotta we gotta make the engines as best they could possibly be. So I said, What do you got? These guys developed a program strictly for engine companies, just the basics of an engine company. We called it, believe it or not, we called it the mega drill. Make engines great again. Make engines great again. Dude, they made hats, they had shirts. We would bring engine company now this came from guys from the field. They said, We gotta work on some engine stuff. And you would remember, Sal, back when they started the Back to Basics program years ago. So this was like a takeoff on that a little bit, but it was strictly engine operations, stretching a line. And they used to bring an engine out for two, three hours in the morning or the afternoon, and all they did was stretch lines. And they went through, you know, one The the guy that was the chauffeur in the team that day would stay with the chauffeur and all they did was talk about chauffeur stuff and everybody else and then they did a critique afterwards. It was one of the best drills that I saw come during the time I worked there. And it wasn't my idea. It was guys from the field that said, Hey chief, can we try this? And of course everything you do costs money, you know. And so we had to we had to build a cadre of instructors to teach the program and they were They needed to be select people, people that could do it and that were committed to it. And we did that, up to the time I left. I think they did a few years after that. But just little tweaks like that, little things, And in each of the schools, in the chauffeur school, there was always improvements that were made, based on ideas from other people from outside the Bureau of Training. Guys from the field would call up all the time, hey, did you think about this? Did you think about that? How about all the stuff that was going on in Hazmat? The when we did the WMD training, we did the bus bomb training, we did, we did crazy stuff, you know. and all those little things made our people better prepared in the field, better aware in the field, on all different aspects of first responder work. And that's the thing. We're an all-hazards fire department now, and we do a ton of medical work, like the chief said, but We do everything else, so we d we do it all. And we have to be prepared for it all. And so our Bureau of Training constantly was evolving to to make sure that we were on top of our game. Yeah, that the Moad drills had went away recently and then went when Tim Keenan took took training two years ago, he put back. Okay. He reinstated the Moad drills. He got back. And he said that they're super si they're very successful. He says the guys love doing it and and the staff loves doing it and this he he put it back. He that was his concept. We got a lot out of it. Yeah. Think about here's a here's another idea that came, Tim Keeny, you expect you mentioned his name. He was the chief of proby school while I was at training. He comes to me one day and he says, Hey chief, I says, I got an idea. What do got? He says, you know, what we're getting a lot of complaints from the field is that a lot of the younger probies coming in today, they're not, they're not mechanical. then then they they don't they don't know how to use tools and he says, I got a proposal. I said, okay, go with your proposal. He says, I want to do at the end of proby school, I want the probies to build something, to do something. I want them to use like circular saws and learn how to run plumbing and do all kinds of stuff. So I'm like, how are we gonna do this? Sure, then anything else. He winds up getting Home Depot to donate lumber. We had to go through the legal process with donations and all of that stuff through the job. Lumber, tools, you name at the end of proby school for like two or three classes. They built these eight by ten sheds. They framed them. They got to use nail guns, hammers. They were running wires. They were they were roofing. It was unbelievable what they built. And then we donated the sheds. We donated the sheds outside. But Timmy Keaton came with an idea and that's a great idea. It's a great idea. It was it it worked out so good. And then of course we ran out of money at some point. And then well well Home Depot didn't want to donate anymore and I guess they stopped doing it. But I tell you what, for the period of time that they did it, it was it was outstanding. We we were I was interviewing firefighters and when I was in Connecticut as a chief and my deputy said, let's put our interview questions together. So we sat down. And he said, let's ask these the kids, what's the last thing that broke that you fixed and how'd you make out? Just if they had any mechanical ability at all. You know, one kid said he he took his mother's vacuum cleaner apart and put it back together. Okay, he's got some semblance. The guy that that that got the job before him was the guy who said he's working on a fifty seven Chevy with two other guys, they're rebuilding a motor. He rehired him on the spot, you know, because the the kids they don't have any mechanical ability at all. I mean that that that kind of went but that That that idea of having them build something and use the tools. What a great idea that is. Terrific. It was unbelievable. How about the mobile training vehicles that we had, Chief? Tommy Galvin got got the foundation, I think, to buy these mobile training vehicles. And they'd go to the field with this this box truck. And they they did searches in these mobile training vehicles. They did they used the bailout system, the PSS. They were practicing with the PSS. They would go to a firehouse, park the truck. Bring the companies over from the battalion and and and guys became just more proficient at doing those kinds of things and they picked good instructors. When they did those drills, were those companies in service still? No. When they came they they came for an hour and they if there was a job or something, they would let them go. But it was that was a great tool too, man. That thing was great. Coordinated to make sure that we had enough people in service. but listen. If your job came up, you could always make him go ten eight. So it was easy enough. Let him go. That was a great that was a great tool as well. That was a great training. I I was a big part in the podcast. Tom Tommy A, you got something, buddy? Yeah. Well, yeah, I thought I'd just jump in, say hi. There he is. Look at the dog. I I'm curious as to your guys' thoughts on the role of the senior man in the in the company. does the culture really kind of dictate that they are exposing the new guys to stuff the way life in the firehouse is? Or is that completely up to the captain or lieutenant of the company? Well, I I I got my the senior man may not always be the best person. Okay? I I think you take the best firefighter in the house and that's who takes the proby under the wings. You know, it doesn't always have to be the senior person. It could be somebody that's a real go getter type of person that looks to train and and wants to make sure that the the new guys and gals get the best training possible. So it also doesn't always have to be the senior person, has to be the most competent person. In my mind. That's me. I I I I will absolutely agree with that. And to your point, Tom, you make a great point. The company commander in the fire company, engine or truck or rescue or squad, doesn't matter, company commander is the key person. They set the tone in the unit. They they build the culture around their vision. They give their leaders intent. And they're the ones that will, you know, they know who their best people are. And they know who the probies should be looking up to or assigned to when they come to the firehouse for guidance. And if you have a good company commander, it's always very quickly evident when you go into a company. this place is squared away. They got a good culture here. Company commander runs the show. captain was my favorite rank. It wasn't it was I love being a captain. And it's your show, it's your shop. You're one, there's three lieutenants and you have twenty or twenty-five firefighters, you're like you're like God there, like you're the man, you know, and or or if there is a female cap whoever the captain is, I used to tell there's a difference between captain and company commander. You're a company commander. When you get a spot, you make that company into what you want it to be. And if you have a strong company commander and a strong culture, the best people will rise to the top and train the new people coming in. That's how I always felt about it. You know, to follow up on on on Tommy Tommy A's question. they they're saying that n not not the problem now, but the issue right now that that they're saying is because it's a young job. It's a very young job right now. This in a lot of cases, the senior guy or the senior gal, if you will, has 12 or 15 years. there's that 20, 25 year firefighter, they're they're kind of they're far and few between now. So the senior person in the company has twice I'm I met a nice kid. He was on light duty from Staten Island. He has 12 years. He's like the second guy. He's the second senior guy in the company. He's got 12 years, you know, and he and he loves being there. He loves working with the new guys and teaching and showing but th so you have you have younger a lot younger, less experienced people is now the senior person in the company. That seems to be affecting the overall current of the job a little bit. comment on that. Well I again as Tommy said, your first line officers, your captain, your your your lieutenants who are working with these members every day. It's so important. that they stress training. training, training, training. Never let your training fail ya. And and if those first line supervisors, the lieutenants and the captains, do their job and do it well, those young firefighters, the young company, they're gonna be fine. I I remember when I came on the job, you know, there was the old salty guys from World War Two, my God, this job is going to hell. We got blah blah and I did okay. You didn't do that. He didn't do too bad. So we we always get that the young guys young gal the kids that are coming in the job today, they're smart. Smart as hell. Yeah. Smart as hell. They're in really good shape. They take care of themselves. And they're gonna be and they're quick learners. So I never worry about news people coming in the job. We're gonna be fine. But again, I stress the importance of those first line supervisors making sure that they train and drill every day. Tom said the captain is such an important rank in the fire service. And I I would also add to that that at the battalion chief level, you know, in the field, it's incumbent upon the battalion chiefs too to be on top of that. You know, they battalion commander also sets the tone for their battalion. And they tell their company commanders, this is my expectation. You know, when I come to your firehouse, I I want to make sure your guys are trained, they're they're drilling all the time. And so it it trickles down, right. And I think it at the company level, company commander, but in the battalion level, I think a strong battalion commander and good battalion chiefs and if you get get like minded people that are like from the same mindset and and that makes the battalion better and it makes the companies better. And I tell you what, you c I I remember one one when I was working at the end of Korea, I would go visit the fly houses and I go to all different places all over the city. And you go to some places that maybe weren't, they don't do as much work, maybe as another car. I would go in places and I'd say, these guys are squared away. They love this job, they want to do good. Nobody wants to not be good. That's how I always felt. Firefighters wanna do well. That's just human nature. I think every firefighter on the job, they want to be a good firefighter, you know. and and as long as we continue to promote that mindset and that culture, we're gonna be fine. Like the Chief said, we're gonna be fine. They're great, these kids coming on. It and it's it's still perpetuating today. I over the last c six months, I I went to the nine division conferences to speak to the Chiefs about something a a joint project we're doing with fire prevention and fire operations together. And I and I met with the battalions and the deputies and and every firehouse I walked into before I went upstairs, there was a drill going on on the floor. Every firehouse. There was a no exceptions. It was the I went all five boroughs and it was there was a drill going on. They they were doing something on the floor. you know, whatever whatever it was. But so it was like I when I got back after the meetings, you know, I would sit down with my bosses. I say, Hey, you know what? They're drilling out there. This is this is a good thing, right? And they said, Yeah, they they should be doing that in every single day. You know, I I tell people they ask me, I've been around Logan of fifteen minutes. Not as long as Sal. Sal's been along 16 minutes. I've been around 15 minutes, And but but I I I they said, what do you tell a young guy? I said, put your you have to touch this thing every single day. Touch it every day. Read something, read enough. That's what I was taught. I was a freshman in college. Jimmy Murtalg was my professor. He was a young lieutenant at the time in the 70s. And he he was chief of training in the nineties, Jim Murtag. Yep. And and he was my lifelong mentor, lifelong mentor, and we were friends Up until he passed last year. And and he said to me when I was 17, I said, I want to be good at this. He said, Read something every day. Touch this every single day. and then now I I tell the story when I pass that on, my my one of my music idols, Billy Joel, you know, he he's he he's an accomplished concert pianist. He writes classical music, he's not just the rock and roll guy. And he said in an interview he had the flu and he crawled to the bathroom. And he crawl was crawling back to his bedroom and he had to go through his music room because that there's a grand piano in there. And he said, I I went over to the bed the piano and got up on my knees and I played chords for five minutes and then I went back to bed. He touches that piano every single day, no matter what. No matter what. You walk by, he's going for a drink, he hits a couple of keys, he keeps going. I told the guys the same thing. You gotta just touch it every single day. You'll get real good at it, you know. so let me see. L let's talk, let's go back to the EMS thing for a couple of minutes. one of the discussions that that was being held, particularly with with Commissioner Tucker when he was in a few years ago, you know, he he had he started to have this vision that that we would become basically we would become a big city like LA, Indianapolis, that had that the firefighters are EMTs, the firefighters are paramedics. And and it would be that was his vision that, as one day he i had he's been around a long enough time, he would have dropped the hammer. And the next proby class going to the rock, they're gonna come out as as firefighters and emts. They're gonna they're gonna stay for EMT, they're gonna come out and it's gonna be like they started in Los Angeles in the seventies when when emergency got published, Well, 'cause we're I think we're we're one of the few big cities that don't do that. that EMS is a separate division and all that. Everywhere else their firefighter EMTs are their firefighter medics. And if you look at the one eds, they're hiring firefighter EMTs, firefighter medics. And so what's I'd I've I'd be curious to know what your opinion of that system or this system is. Is it is this working or not working? And would that work better or not? Commissioner, what are you first? I I tried to do that when I was a chief operation. You did? Okay. I I try to say, okay, let's start with the next proby class. We gotta start someplace and let's start with the next probabil class and have them become firefighters and EMTs. I was quickly shot down by every union that was out there. O and B, too expensive. Forget they weren't worried about the operational issue because you know the the only concern I had was is how did they keep up their medical skills? And we could work around that to say, listen you gotta work two tours a month on an ambulance And then you can go back to being a firefighter. Everybody that was in the job at the time of your grandfather like they did in Chicago. I think we'd be a better department if we did that. I think we'd be much more well-rounded. I think the public would be served better. Wouldn't you be better off being served by a firefighter that was also an empty and if they wanted to become a paramedic, a paramedic? So that you had a a dual person respondent, firefighter EMT or firefighter paramedic. I think it's the way to go. It's hard to get everybody on board. I'm not sure it's everything to happen in New York, but if it did, we'd be a better department. So I think there's there's there's I guess there's several different ways. One of the ways that I've heard potentially that it could be done if if we could get everybody on board up to and including City Hall. if everybody came into the fire department through EMS, everybody comes in through EMS. Everybody comes in through EMS. Every person coming into the job, and then you know. You could track in the in a in the medical field or you could track and become a firefighter and keep your medical certification. That's one way that I've heard potentially to fix the problem. easier said than done. the other thing that I always felt when I went to FOMI, Chief Cassano was the chief of department. Our FOMI project, one part of it was to look at paramedic engine companies. And one of the things that we had proposed in our former project, this is 2009, when I went. And we did some research around the country on how other departments do it from Los Angeles, Chicago at the time, Houston, I think was doing Houston, and we and then we looked at a couple of small departments too. And you know, they pay their medics and their EMTs a bit of a stipend, you know, on top of their Fire Fire salary. and then we said, let's maybe try a pilot program. Let's pick a couple of areas in the city where our paramedic response times are not so good. And let's see if we could staff one of the engines in a battalion with enough paramedics, firefighter medics, that could, be in that battalion, in that response area. But of course, to to the chief's point, you you know, the unions, the unions were a big obstacle, you know, just a tremendous obstacle. I would argue me personally, especially at the end of my career, when we went through COVID, we we you know, EMS was in trouble. They had a lot of people getting sick. you know, they had their medical leave rate was very, very high, as was the fire side, but theirs was even worse. And the city brought in a lot of ambulances from out of town, like from here and there and all over the country that stepped up that wanted to come and help us. but we had a plan. I was in operations at the time. We had a list of about 300 firefighter EMTs and we had about 60 or 70 medics. We were gonna put them on ambulances. We had a whole plan. I went to the fire union, I talked to the union president, sat down with him. He was not happy about it, but he understood we were in dire straits. we had to get we had to get ambulances on the road. EMS Training Academy was gonna do a couple of days, bring guys up to speed on the some of the newer protocols since they you maybe weren't in EMS for a couple of years. And we were gonna get up to speed on the EPCR, on the tablets and all of that. and we had it all ready to go. And it didn't get supported, you know, at the at the top of the job. And I was very frustrated because I said, We're bringing in all these outside people. We have our own people that could help. And and we didn't do it. You know, we didn't do it. We we staffed rapid response vehicles with a couple of guys, a an officer and a CFR or an EMT firefighter, whatever. We did that a little bit, but we didn't do it to the extent I thought. I thought that was the perfect time to make get the foot in the door and and it didn't go. It didn't go. It didn't go. I was very disappointed. I mean we were in a state of emergency and we still couldn't pull it off. Imagine trying to pull it off in normal times. Yes. Exactly right. I was very frustrated, man. I you know I I was com I was just totally frustrated, but it didn't work out, And I think it could have if we if they would have let it go through just for the couple of months, you know, I try it. Let's try it out, see how it works out. And it just never took never got never got any support. So whatever. It was it was it was worth the try. Sure. R Ron, you know that you know, I grew up in the shadow of the F D NY, living across the river in New Jersey. And Had a bunch of friends on both sides of the aisle, both working for Fire and working for EMS. I don't know if you guys need this back. my god, look at that. Holy Jesus. You know what? Tom, I was looking for that plaque. That's awesome. I gotta tell you though, the one thing I our EMTs and paramedics are the best. yeah. Best. yeah, they work hard, man. They work hard. They work so hard and they don't get paid what they should, in my opinion. But they work so hard, man. And I know, I I that's why I wish we could figure it out. I always used to say jokingly, I would say, well, we're 30 years in, or at the time, maybe 26 years in, and we still don't have it right. that's what I would say. I would say that all the time. people in the city are getting a great service, our people are well trained on both sides. they get a good service and we do save a lot of lives. We save tons and tons of lives on both sides and working together. And so I would never sell anybody short like our people o do do the right thing each and every single day, man. I I watched firefighters, you know, you know, they they don't like a lot of guys, didn't like going on the medical runs, but that's part of the job. But when it was the real deal, I watched these guys and gals man jump in there and Do amazing, amazing things, man. Working together with our folks in EMS, man. Tremendous, tremendous people. Ryan, when we were on the budget crunch and they were looking to cut engine companies and looking to cut number of units and the thing that I used to save those companies was the amount of medical work we do. You know, because the fires were down, but our medical r runs were through the roof. And you know, the budget people all they look at is fires. They don't look at what all the other work that we do. to quote my good friend Eddie Kilduff says, we are emergency managers. We manage all types of emergencies. So if we don't go to a fire in the city, we're still gonna be so damn busy because of all the other work that we do. We're really busy. So but the thing that helped me to save companies was to stress the amount of medical work we do and see how many lives we save with our medical work. And if you could Blo Bloomberg, Mayor Bloomberg, who I worked under, you could explain that kind of stuff to him. He would understand it. He would know it's it's more than just fighting fires. You're doing other a lot of other work. But I could explain it to him because I did it all, so it was easy. We got some of our injured companies now, half of their runs, fifty percent of their runs are medical runs. got companies doing six thousand sixty five hundred runs, over three thousand of their runs are EMS runs. The medical runs around the country, the medical runs around the co is is saving companies and firefighters everywhere. It's on a national level, the Chiefs are going and saying, You can't close that firehouse because they they did eight thousand medical calls last year, who who's gonna go? Who's gonna make that call? So it's it's all over the country Commission, you have something else? No, no, just that was a big part of what we do now. Okay, okay, cool. Tom did Tommy Aaron Hammer, did you have something for divorces? Just curious. He's putting his glasses on. This is bad. Go ahead. my exposure to FDNY was limited by the people that I talked to. But I I think back to when I got my first subscription to W NYF and guys here in New Mexico were just amazed that that information would get shared with some of us here on the other part of the world. But the the amount of I guess I would call it senior staff that was lost on nine eleven, w what was it like trying to to come back from losing that amount of experience? Well, we lost our chief of department, Peter Gansy Pete, first deputy Bill Fahan, and and two of the chiefs that we lost, d Donald Burns, who was a former chief of operations, who knew the operation of the FD and Y and the whole New York City inside out, and then my really close friend Jerry Barbera, who was the former chief of fire prevention, who was such an advocate for fire prevention. you don't replace them. We we worked our way up. I became the chief of operations. They I became the chief of department. But we realized that we had a job to do. we we were thrown into this thing maybe a little sooner than we normally would. But we we had a huge promotion. that following Sunday, people were thrust into jobs. But I could tell you, because of the amount of loss that we suffered, everybody knew that they had to pitch in to rebuild a department. Some people say, you hope it re I helped rebuild the department. But it was a a total team effort. People that stepped up to become staff chiefs that really didn't want to be staff chiefs yet, but they knew that part of this rebuilding process was gonna take a team of all of us to get it done. You know, we lost three hundred forty three members, was over forty, four hundred years of experience. You don't replace somebody like Ray Downey. No, he was they called you know, his nickname was God because for that reason, you know. Tommy worked under him in special ops. you know, we lost John Fang, the chief of hazmat. Nobody loses these kind of people and recovers that quickly. But we all pitched in, we all increased our training, we all worked eighteen to twenty hours a day because we knew that to rebuild the department was gonna take that kind of an effort. And you know we did. you know, you look at us now twenty five years later, it's you know it sounds like a cliche, but we are better equipped, better trained and better prepared than we ever were. With better radios, better equipment, better masks, better tools. But it took a whole team effort to get there. But we're there. I I can remember maybe a a month after the w September eleventh, and I'm I'm I'm looking around, and Tom, you know, it was devastating. You're looking at ten foot high buildings that were 110 stories and they're ten feet high. And I'm looking around and I'm saying, How the heck are we gonna recover from this? You look at it. And then on September eleventh, twenty five years later, I was talking with somebody and I looked around and I says, twenty five years ago, I says, How are we gonna recover from this? And now I look at it and say, Look what we did. The resilience of the department, of the city, of the country, of our members is second to none. you still go to places from World War Two that haven't been rebuilt. And look at what we did in downtown Manhattan to rebuild it in twenty five less than twenty five years for sure. It's beautiful. It's thriving, it's alive, because of the resilience of the department and the city. I can't really add to it, but I was a benefactor of the leadership from the gentleman that took those jobs and and led our department for the next several years. I was a benefactor. I was a battalion chief in the field and I learned from all of these men. They were just mentors of all mentors, and I got I I didn't work with a lot of them. I worked with Eddie Kilduff. He was a battalion chief when I was a captain, you know. I worked with Tommy Galvin. He was in the 44 battalion when I was in the neighborhood there as a as a fire officer. But watching these gentlemen rebuild this department and all those that stepped up to the plate to to to work with them, to to do what they did, that's something that w none of us should forget. And again, many of us were just benefactors and it made us better firefighters, it made us better chief officers and better fire officers over the over the course of all of that time. You know, his training evolved like we talked about before. But these guys deserve a tremendous amount of credit. They were there in the in the in the moment and they stepped up to the plate and they made our job much better for it, as sad as it was. And again, the job is it's still the greatest job on earth, no matter what anybody says. it really is. I'm so happy my son is now a part of fire operations. He did six years in EMS. He was a paramedic and he really loved it. He enjoyed it. And he had the opportunity to become a firefighter and he took it. And I'm glad that he's he's part of it now and that he sees both sides and understands both sides of the job. And I think that's important. these kids that come from EMS they work very hard and they bring a lot to the table man they really do and and everything that happened over the course of twenty five years is it was really largely due to the gentlemen that were in the moment at the time. All right. So as we winding down here with our hour, Tommy and I do a couple of things. We want you gentlemen to hang in with us for a couple more minutes, please. So Tom, do you have a roll call for this for this show? So the last time we recorded was on august eighteenth, and since then there's been nine light of duty deaths across the country. Robert Hughes on eight twenty-one from Abbeville, Louisiana made the supreme sacrifice at a motor vehicle crash. Randy Lupe on august twenty third. with the US wildfire service passed away from an unknown medical edicene. Eric Handlin on September fourth from Od Odessa, Texas suffered a stroke at the fire station. Eric Phillips on September fourth from Raymond, New Hampshire, died from an unknown medical edicene. Joe Flake on September seventh from Wellston, Oklahoma, suffered a heart attack at a fire scene. Ryan Cutler from the U.S. Forest Service and also Greg King from the US Forest Service on September twentieth both perish in a helicopter crash. Bryce Kaufman on September twenty first from Gerard, Pennsylvania. Lost his life in a vehicle collision. And Richard Wright on September twenty ninth from Eagle Rock, Virginia, passed away from a drowning incident at a rescue. As always, Ron and I ask that you keep the families of the fallen in your thoughts and prayers and heed the lessons that they've left behind. That's all I got, Ron. Thanks, Tommy. Thank you. So at this point in in the show, we usually Tommy and I talk about some books we've been reading lately, Fire and Non-Fire. I just finished this one, Abel Danger by Congressman Kurt Weldon. everything you wanted to know about leading up to nine eleven and how much intelligence we really had in the country and and the the presidential administrations and the department of justice and all that was so dis disjointed. Abel Danger was the name of the program. It was it was done by the Army, and they did data mining like no one's ever did data mining in in our history. And they had they had the name of Mohammed Adda, who had who was running the Brooklyn Al-Qaeda cell a year and a half before 9-11. And nothing, they didn't go after him. The FBI never touched him. on and on and on. This is a tell-all book, man, very compelling. So that was that. And then just to keep my mind fresh. I don't know how many of you have have read the killing books by by Bill O'Reilly, but he's got about a dozen of them. And for me, the killing books are just re history lessons refreshed. And there's always a little spin. I just read Killing Patton, okay? Killing Patton. And they say, Patton died from a a car accident overseas, but that truck came out of nowhere and h and hit his car head on. So that's that's the the the crux of that story. I just finished Killing the Legends. This is Mohammed Ali Elvis and John John Leonard from the Beatles and what happened to them in their lives. And they depended on people who took them for a ride and they all unfortunately die young. And then I this song was great, Killing the Mob. This was about the the the New York Mafia, the five families, and going back to the beginning, you know, Lucky Luciano and the guys coming from Sicily and all that stuff and what happened in New York City. So I'm I I'm I'm about eight I'm about six or seven of these in. I'm gonna read the whole series. They're great history lessons. These guys, they do a ton of research and pr pretty cool. Tommy, what else you got? You got a book? Ron, you probably remember when I had my short lived fifteen minutes of fame and got interviewed by Dan Rather on Sixty Minutes about America's firefighter arson problem. And I was joined on that show by a guy named Joseph Wamba, who's a retired LAPD sergeant, who has written a plethora of books, both on some of the more funnier aspects of the Los Angeles Police Department, but also a number of true crime books he wrote. And he was kind enough to send this to me after we were on. called Fire Lover. And I don't know whether you guys are familiar with the John Orr case, but John Orr was a fire investigator from Glendale, California, who was probably one of the most prolific serial arsonists that we've seen in the United States. He's still locked up for murder charges of a number of people who got killed when fires that he said. But this is probably the definitive work on serial arsonists. And there's another one that just came out not too long ago called Solving for X. I read that one. And Bob Lock Bob Lockett, the fire marshal from Arlington, Virginia, covered the Tom Sweat case of the DC serial arsonists. I'm just a crime buff anyway. But two of those are definitely worth the read if you're interested in that subject matter. Yeah, there there's there's a bunch of the I I just spotted a book on my shelf. I gotta go get it. So s stand by. I'll be right back. I'm right I'm back. See that was quick. I I I just read this book. I I picked it up. There's a young a young firefighter in New Jersey and he he was he's been looking at the the the he's got about fifteen years. He's a federal firefighter at Fort Mammoth. In New Jersey. And he's been looking at the senior man thing. The senior man thing. He's been a volunteer, he's all this time, and now he's a career guy in a federal DOD. And he started to look at the senior guy in a firehouse as the non commissioned officer. He's the non com. He's kind of been the guy that knows his way around and knows the drill and all that. So he wrote a book and he created this thing called Firehouse Sergeants Earning Your Stripes by Nick Palombo. And and what a great perspective this kid put on what the senior man should be doing. Again, he he also agrees with you, you gentlemen, that it's gotta be the right guy, you know. But at one point he he breaks it down into different sergeant ranks tech sergeant, master sergeant, all that stuff. But he one of the things he talked about in this book, it jumped right off the page at me, was he said that that that firehouse sergeant, that noncom, He he's the guy who has to maintain tactical guardianship is what he called it. Tactical guardianship. He's the guardian of of of the tactics that goes on in the field. He's the guy, the trainer and and the unofficial guy and you know, the mentor and all that stuff. So fi thought it was an interesting concept. That guy reached out to Nick and then we talked about his book on the phone and then he had me on his podcast recently as a guest to talk about firehouse sergeants and all that stuff. So Pretty neat book about the senior guy, and and that's those dis those discussions go on and on. So it's time for the lightning round. Commissioner Cassano, you ready? Sure. Okay, you ready? What's your favorite color? Blue. Blue. Favorite fire truck color. I know it's coming. That's easy. Red. Yeah, okay. Favorite late night snack. Oatmeal cookies. Favorite firehouse meal. Meatloaf. Favorite chain restaurant. Cheesecake Factory. Phew. Combating a thousand pal. your favorite type of place or style of food to eat out? Italian. Eat out Italian, yeah? yeah. Would Mrs. Cassano agree with that? I live on Staten Island. You can't go two blocks without Italian with What's your favorite sports team? Favorite sports team? New York Giants, New York Mets. Okay. Comfort F what's your comfort food dish? Spaghetti. Spaghetti, comfort food, okay. favorite animal? My pit bull Leo. okay. You got a dog there, okay. just in general, engine or truck? Engine puts out the fire. Okay. All right. So Sal, no knowing what you would knowing what you know now and and your in illustrious career in the fire service and all everything you've done and where you've been, if you could go back in time, what advice would you give to a twenty year old version of Sal Cassano? Continue to study. Study hard and how lucky am I to become a New York City firefighter. Embrace it. It goes fast. Race of the Ghostface. Yeah, no kidding. All right, Richardson, you're up. Favorite collar? Red. Favorite fire truck collar. Red. Favorite late night snack. Ice cream. I ha I had you as an ice cream guy. I knew it. I knew it. Favorite firehouse meal. Italian. You know, sauce, meatballs, and yeah. All right. Favorite favorite chain restaurant. Chain restaurant. You know what? P. F. Chang's. Favorite type of place or style of food to eat out. Would you like to eat out? So I like I like Asian food, PF Changs, yeah, yeah. Chinese food, all that stuff. All right, we'll we'll let we'll let you do that. That's all right. Favorite sports team. New York Mets and New York Giants. New York Mets, so you you enjoy pain, is that it? I'm a hapless Met fan. What's your comfort food dish? Comfort food. I'd say yogurt. Yeah? Wow. How healthy. Yeah. Vanilla vanilla yogurt. How very healthy of you, sir. Vanilla Greek yogurt. I love it. Yeah. Favorite animal, dog or cat? Dog. I had a beagle. Beautiful. Loved him. Engine or truck? Engine. Best two positions in the job. Nozzle and engine officer. Knowing what you know now, with your long illustrious career as well, what would you go back and tell a 20-year-old Tommy Richardson? Be a student of the job, be a student of the business, and whatever you learn, pass it on. Pass it on to the next generation. Very cool. Well. I I don't know what else to say beyond this, but gentlemen, this has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your wisdom. Thank you for sharing your your your story with us. this t Tommy and I we're we're going off the air in December. We we've been on for fifteen years. And we're gonna we're gonna retire in December. And and we have there's a couple of shows that are that are gonna that are gonna end up in our our hall of fame. Nobody else gives a shit, but our hall of fame. And this this is gonna be one of This will be one of our Hall of Fame shows. sure. Tommy, you wanna add anything to that? No, just I I have a tremendous amount of respect for you guys, not only because of the organization, but also the the emotion and feelings that you put into the job. God bless both of you. Thanks for being on with us. Well it was an honor and a privilege honor and a privilege for me to be on with Sal Cassano. You could have picked a whole bunch of other guys and y you asked me and I'm honored that you did and it was w it was a privilege to be on with you both. And I got to know Ron a little bit over the last few years and tremendous individual and Tom, obviously you and Ron you got a good team and thank you for what you guys do, bringing information to firefighters all across the country. Well Like I said, we we had a pretty good run here, so it wasn't too bad. we always say, tour back tour up on the back step again, everybody. Be safe, slow down, buckle up, eat right, eat light, stop for red, use your head. Watch how you drive, arrive alive before you go to sleep at night, hug your wife and kids and your partners and your whoever else you're living with to tell you love them before you tuck them in at night. So with that, we'll say goodnight from the back step and we'll see you real soon.