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Fidel Amakye Owusu on African Geopolitics, Culture, and Security · Café Berlin

• speaker-0: Welcome to another episode of Cafe Berlin, a podcast brought to you by the National Association of Scholars, where high politics meets higher education. We hope you enjoy the show. speaker-1: Good afternoon. Hello and welcome to Cafe Berlin, a podcast brought to you by the National Association of Scholars. I'm Lila Nora Kish and I'm a Senior Fellow for International Affairs and Academic Integrity. This is my co-host, Ian Oxnivad, who is a senior fellow for international affairs and security studies. Today we are going to talk about Africa, African security, and why does it matter to the United States and to the European Union to learn about this. I let Ian to introduce our distinguished guest today. Ian, the floor is yours. speaker-0: Thank you, Leela. Today our guest is Fidel Amaktoye Oyusu. he he's a geopolitical and security advisor at Riley Risk and the founder and CEO of DefSec Analytics Africa. His work examines conflict and security risks across the continent. And he previously worked as a senior conflicts analyst at the Conflict Research Consortium for Africa and holds a bachelor's and master's degree in international affairs from the University of Ghana. And with that, let's bring in our guest. Welcome, Fidel, or happy to have you. So, your your work on Africa, I came across it, I don't know, probably several years ago. And it was some of the best out there. it was like, you know, were talking about Russian mercenaries and the implications for Mali and the Sahel and like what that does to Chinese mineral access in South Africa. And then the news would catch up to you like two weeks later. Because what you were you were talking about was so accurate and timely. And you you came at it with a really unique approach in that you tied it into the implications and you put a full-on intelligence report together drawing from international relations theory and and kind of everything. And quite honestly, it was it's second to none. And it it's so different and refreshing compared to the way Ana Africa's usually talked about. especially in the media and in classrooms here, e even in some of our best universities. So I wanted to ask is is good Ozint or open source intelligence and the kind of work you do, is it an art or is it a science? And what makes that good and relevant as opposed to I would say the really stale sort of way that Africa is typically portrayed as this sort of it has no agency of its own. It's just kind of this and caught between world powers and it never has any outlook or any anima of itself. speaker-1: thank you very much for having me, sir. this was refreshing when you reached out to me, and I appreciate the fact that you're giving me your prestigious platform to talk about my continent and perhaps my country too. yes, being a science or an arts just takes me back to when I was in college in level hundred political science and There is this question you would never be able to dodge or evade in in in level hundred. And it was, is political science a science? And then we often had problems with that because I mean you you you did not have a definite answer, but you needed to put out some answer. Because you are dealing with human beings who are very unpredictable. Human beings are not like catching a tadpole and putting it under a microscope or something. So it's very complex. However, you cannot randomly pick any topic and start discussing. So you needed to use the scientific method. I would apply the same with percent because you first of all have to identify a problem. If it has to be mining terrorism or anything you needed to define it, and then you needed some observation, you needed collection of data. Testing such data against what you and I mean building hypotheses around it. So, yes, the collection of data in terms of cost tends to be more scientific because if you did it randomly, then you were going to make it too subjective to really produce anything consequential for your clients or your audience. However, in the analysis of the data, You needed to adopt some arts. Because you are dealing with culture, you are dealing with people's social lives, you are dealing with a lot of dynamics that need some psychological, social, cultural indicators to really understand. Now, one an example is you deploy a drone and a surveillance drone and it picks data in northern Nigeria. And you receive images of motorbikes running very fast with some guys welding guns and giving shots, I mean shooting randomly. Now that is scientific because the data is collected, you receive it in your base, you know that there are this is I mean motorbikes running. But then after getting that, you need to understand the cultural setting where you got that information. Because in Nigeria, during weddings, People behave exactly the same as terrorists behave with bikes, running very fast and shooting guns randomly. In weddings in northern Nigeria, such things happen. So if you do not take care, you would order a strike on these people and you end up killing innocent people. So that is the difference between the science of creating the data and the analysis, that is, understanding the cultural setting and the social setting that will make you arrive at the very logical conclusion. that will let you avoid certain accidents and use the data for something more beneficial to your your your maybe if you are in the military, your your force and then the population that you are protecting. Thank you. speaker-0: Yeah, no, that's that's a that's a great point, the the cultural aspect, which we don't like to talk about, it seems, in the West, because culture is almost this thing that it's either a taboo to talk about or we don't know how to talk about it anymore. And I see this in universities all the time. that it's denigrating here in the West, where you'll see political scientists are guilty of this. They'll say comparative political scientists don't because they understand it, but a lot of them are like, it's area studies. where it's not really like a real discipline. And we see this here in in America for sure. Leela's from Europe. She may have a slightly different take on it. But Africa's really badly studied along with just about every other region. But I think more so it's it's often confined to postcolonial theories where it's like Africa didn't exist before like nineteen sixty and it still doesn't exist besides like China and the US fighting over it now. and and access to minerals and things like that. And it doesn't it it doesn't take into account the regional dynamism, you know, the the the languages like you like you bring into your work, the r the religious nuances that you see and and just it seems like the the inability of commentators in the West to talk about it in any intelligent way reflects what we see in the classroom. And what are universities missing when they talk about Africa. Is it really beginning the universities? Because it feels like it does. And and maybe you have a different take on it, 'cause I know you write for for Western audiences frequently. and and also what are the components to gaining relevant expertise? Because you mentioned culture and and and how how does that affect how you approach Africa? Is it is it like language? Is it just travel and absorb it? What makes like what makes for a good expert in a region? speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. So I always said that location is key. you cannot approach Africa if you do not understand how countries are located and what's led to that location. In fact, this is the largest the countr the continent with the largest number of countries, fifty four sovereign countries. And we have other groups, other Territories that are trying to succeed from some of these countries. So it's very complex. It has the largest number of countries you can find in the UN General Assembly. So in recent UN General Assembly meeting, we found more African countries than any other continent. Now, if you met someone and the person is talking about Africa as though it's a it's a country, Africa, the whole Africa is a country, then it's a problem. Because in West Africa alone, we have about 15 to 16 countries, depending on how you look at it, with the ECOWAS, the economic community of West African states. And in all these countries, we have unique political systems. Even among Francophone or Anglophone countries, and by francophone and anglophone, countries that were colonies, former colonies of France, and those that were former colonies of Britain, you will still find unique characteristics. For instance, Ghana and Nigeria. Had some common political culture during colonialism because they were all colonized by the British. However, this commonality just had to do with the colonial master and not the lookouts, because the locals had different ways of approaching the politics, even at a time. And so currently, it's still the same. That when you went, when you when you when you were in Nigeria, which is a federal country, you realize that. The kind of politics that is being played, the local politics, the national politics is all different from what Ghana has, which is largely a unitary country with very strong decentralized system. Similarly, the situation in Mali, a francophone country, is different from that in Côte d'Ivoire. Mali is one of the countries that is very huge. No country in Western Europe is as large as Mali. But mostly you find it on the footnotes. Of analysis. that is Mali and that. It's a very huge country. And this is a country that inherited a lot of baggage from colonialism. However, the problem after decades, the problem is not still colonialism, but how modern countries are supposed to resolve such differences. Today, terrorism is very pervasive in that country because the group in the north that Has been asking for independent or autonomous territory when never given the opportunity. That is a tuarig. And today their space has been radicalized and being used by Al-Qaeda and IS groups to terrorize the whole region. So these are the dynamics. Now, you are all everything I've said is just West Africa. And there is more to say about that. The drug menace, where in the southwestern part of West Africa, Mexican and and and other South American drug laws or cattle are using these countries like Liberia, Guinea-Bissau, Sierra Leone, and others as transit points, including Ghana, my country, as transit points to transport drugs to North America and Europe. Because while the drug agencies in America and Europe are looking at flights coming from Venezuela, Colombia and others, they directed attention to Africa. And then they were exporting these drugs. And in recent times, tons of such drug drugs have been intercepted. You move to East Africa, and that is another thing. Currently, Ethiopia has a major issue: an internal war happening. And if you listen to some of the analysis, like you mentioned, Western analysis, you realize that the the talk is all about yes, it's in Africa and there's a likelihood of conflict. No, Ethiopia. Is still evolving. It is one of the few countries that was never colonized by the Europeans because of the geography. It's very, that is the the Addis Ababa, the capital of Ethiopia, is the highest city in Africa, thousands of meters above sea level. And in the days when the Italians were trying to invade them in the Battle of Adwa in 1896, the Ethiopians defeated the Italians. And it's one of the landmark victories for Africans in our history. But however, That also meant that it took a longer time for the country to evolve. So the kind of serfdom that was being practiced in Europe before capitalism set in was still practiced even in the 70s and the 80s in Ethiopia. Until the monarchy was overthrown and the country is taking time to modernize. That has also meant that political identity is much more localized than many countries in Africa. If you you saw the you you heard of the Tigray, that is a nation within a country. Then there is the Oromo, there is Amhara, and other groups in the country. And these groups until recently had their own independent armies, different from the national army. Nowhere in Africa allows that. But Ethiopia allowed it. Currently, the the the current leader wants to change that century old practice. And that is what has led to the current conflict, as I speak, that is unfolding. so these are the dynamics. That is one country in East Africa. We have Kenya, we have Somalia with its terrorism problem. And how in recent times we are more concerned about terrorists in Somalia acquiring sophisticated weapons from the Buthi in Yemen, who are, by the way, just across the Gulf of Aden and the Red Sea. It's complex. So I think that the geography is very important. Trying to differentiate them is very important. Another is culture. How the culture is still evolving must also be concerned with. And then even the sizes of the countries. About a few days ago, I had mentioned that in the DRC, you f you could operate somewhere in the DRC and you would never know the chaos happening in Eastern DRC. Because the DRC is the second. Largest country in Africa and the largest in sub-Saharan Africa. It is larger than any country in Eastern Europe and Western Europe. Except Russia. And so with that size, it means that and then you have a lot of ungoverned space in the country. So it means with what the politicians are controlling the capital, if you take if you if you if you put that aside, it is very difficult to actually ascertain. Their control in other areas, thereby giving rise to local forces that are defining territories and political systems for themselves. And all these, I mean, must be understood in in India cultural, geopolitical, and then social context. Yes. speaker-0: Yeah. Go ahead. speaker-1: No, no. Go ahead. speaker-0: It the it it geography is so badly taught in universities. Like I I had a class, it was an intro class, and this was a cop like this was a top university in California. And and I had a student that was really concerned that the Iraq war would spill into Honduras in Central America. And and I assured her that's a really, really small likelihood of happening. That's probably not going to happen. I mean, anything is possible. But it was clear that the geography, the geographic knowledge just was not there, let alone any linguistic, you know, sort of of knowledge. And and it seems like it it's it, you know, the way that this stuff is taught is just reaches pure abstraction where it just there's no variance on the ground. They don't know the map, and then they don't know that the map doesn't necessarily translate to on the ground just because you're within the lines doesn't mean that it's the same. a hundred miles away from where you actually are or where you're going. I'll kick it over to Leela. speaker-1: Yeah, I I wanted to enforce your message about this knowledge gap between you know, even among policymakers when it comes to Africa, they don't know the geography, the history, the linguistic and religious differences which are also very important. And oftentimes this all happens within one country because each country is as you pointed it out are large. And you know, it it can be a huge difference when it comes to evaluating certain policies or how to approach Africa. And of course it's it's very similar when it comes to Europe. I see a lot of ignorance, especially among certain circles talking about Europe as a whole. I'm I'm from Central Eastern Europe. And when Americans speak about Europe, they oftentimes talk about Germany and France and they assume that Europe is the same. We are we have about 40 countries in Europe depending on how you count what belongs to Europe and twenty seven seven in the European Union, we have different languages, just twenty-four official languages within the European Union. And when people are talking about Europe is like this or like that, I feel I'm put in a box but I don't belong. We we see when we are inside of a continent, we see the differences much more than the similarities. And of course when you are outside, you see more similarities. and I think it's It's also probably true for for for Africa. And I have a question based on this. And the question is how and what should we teach or what educators should teach about Africa? What cases, what you know, what courses in order to help them understand this diversity that can also base different policies. Yeah, yeah. So this is very important because for ERU. Africa has more direct consequences than even North America because of the Mediterranean Sea not being that large. It's not like the Atlantic Ocean. So people can actually bought rafts and makeshift boats to reach Europe from Africa. So Europe has a lot of reason to really understand the continent across the sea. And one of the things they can do is the right history, you know. One important step is not to shy away from the history, how Europeans influence Africa and how that is has led to some of the things that we currently fix. However, we also have to talk about the reality on the continents, the kind of evolution that the continent is going through. Because often people assume that, well, if Europe has been able to do this, Africa should do it. And they think that it it will just happen. No, it will take some time because the 50s and the 60s of independence after a few decades will not translate into developments and kind of European style standard of living. It will take some time, however, that must be taught in a more realistic way than mostly well, it's Africa, and then that is put aside. Meanwhile, you come to I I met someone who said, well, who was in Accra recently and he said, I d never thought Accra would be like this. But I was in Accra and I feel like I'm in Europe because I I get access to anything that I want. Yes, that is it. You know? So you have to go deeper into the interior to understand the country. You can't just be in the capital and understand the country. The capital is, I mean, flourishing, but then there's always that gap between the urban centers and the rural communities that by the way are holding Significant populations. And mostly when conflicts are happening in Africa, they're happening in rural communities. So when you are studying African countries, you do not just talk about the capitals, you have to study them holistically. That will let you understand what you are going through. So I can give you a picture or a photo of a car, and then you see good lighting system, the skyline, very nice, good streets. But then you have to go beyond Accra to go to my village, where about 90% of the people are farmers, cultivating farms on a very small scale, and there is not enough value addition to what they produce. These are the relatives in several African countries we have to look at. A country like Angola, if you go to Luanda, their capital today, it's like any European city in Angola. But beyond that, It's chaos. It's poverty. Serious poverty. Despite the millions of barrels of oil that is sent outside the country each day, there is still poverty. And you would understand it if you understood that that country, even after the end of the Cold War, had to continue fighting a civil war until twenty two thousand and two. The Cold War in Angola ended in just two thousand and two. So if you compare Angola with Ghana, You would always have a problem because Ghana never experienced any civil war. So the in terms of rural urban gap, Ghana has done better than Angola. Even though the Angolan economy is growing very fast and all that, the the kind of a gap is still there. And that is why the US interest in the Lobito corridor should be discussed in that context. That hey, yes, you can construct all the pipelines, all the roads that will lead to the copper belts and all that. But you need to really ensure rural development. Put pressure on the government to ensure rural. Either than that, these rural folks may take up arms and destruct every infrastructure you are building towards the Lobito corridor that is for the United States. So these are the ways to go. But if you get to Rwanda and the politician says yes, you can construct the road and you think that the politicians have said it and that is it. No. With time, people tend to rise against authorities. And that is what we are seeing in in in Ethiopia, in the DRC, in Somalia and other places. Yes, some groups are terrorist groups, but most of what drives them is socioeconomic. And I have always said that we must separate what is happening or what happened in Afghanistan when bin Laden have sent fighters from Arabia, Egypt and other places to Afghanistan. From what we are experiencing in Africa. What we are experiencing in Africa are not foreign fighters, they are local people who have been radicalized. So they belong to the countries they are fighting in. So when they say terror groups have dispersed in Africa, they are going back to their homes and then reorganize and come back. It's not like in Afghanistan where you can just say that, well, this guy is from Egypt. So if we are able to capture him and send him back to his country, or perhaps to somewhere like Guatanoma Bay. We have them caged. No, in Africa, these are nationals, these are citizens who have been radicalized, unfortunately, who pursue the kind of socioeconomic needs that they have been fighting for for decades. So I believe that holistically analyzing the continent or the countries is always a better option to just I mean putting them together and giving them a label. speaker-0: I I remember so my my background regional like regional expertise was in the Middle East, you know, Arabic and North Africa and some some Sahel stuff. And I remember in grad school, in order to really understand the region, I had to like go out of my way to take classes on tribal politics, how like anthropology, clans, how clans work. And this was stuff that nor like normal political scientists were not doing. they were just you just need to look at the voting patterns. I'm and I'm like, your voting patterns don't make any sense if you don't know the clans and the tribes and and none of this makes any sense it without it. And that that sort of dissonance, the inability of these places to to take in things like that, and how politics isn't just votes and flags, it actually gets very complicated and very raw. when you get up close. And I'm really thankful that I did that along with the the language training that I did because it it's the only way to really make sense of it. And I've, I I I've done some of the work that you've done in the past. And and I have to ask, like, do African universities teach this stuff better because of the realities on the ground? Because it feels like American universities, I almost feel like a stranger within my own discipline a lot of the time because of this. And I'm like, 'cause y I actually had a it was a it was a an asylum case involving involving terrorism. And the judge, this was this was a while back, the judge was like, you know, these university professors don't really understand much. And I'm like, I agree with you. Because, you know, they they don't actually they don't actually you know, study the the reality on the ground. They they study this abstraction that has no basis in reality. So I'm asking D do African universities approach this a little differently and holistically than what you've seen in the West, maybe? speaker-1: So thank you very much for this question because it's important. I had my first degree and my master's or in Ghana, the University of Ghana. And I must admit that I learned a lot. the genesis of terrorism, Bin Laden's rule in Africa, US foreign policy, European history. We are taught everything. Interesting. I fell in love with European history while studying history in the university because I majored in political science and minority in history. And it was very comprehensive. And you are taught African originality, everything I mean, all these things are taught very well from right from Africa and then back to Europe. Now, recently, a US national asked me, Fidel, how come you get to understand? Because we do private chatter, you got to understand you Seem to understand US politics than the average person. And I have never lived in the United States. And I said, yes, I get to know that by default. Because the US is a big power and it has presence everywhere. So I am forced to study the United States. So back in as an undergrad student, I was studying US foreign policy and I had to start. All the way from the post Second World War leaders, so FDR, all the way to the current leader. Like, I mean, at the time I was I was in school. So at the time, I think that was Hoosh. So the it was very comprehensive. You needed to study all that. And then this we you needed to study that because then US has also influenced a lot in Africa, especially during the Cold War. When it was trying to contain communism in Africa. So its presence, we meant that we have to study a lot. US presence in the DRC, US presence in the Horn of Africa, US presence in West Africa. We studied everything. And then European history. How events in Europe affected European presence in Africa. For instance, how a coup in Portugal actually led to the Portuguese finally granting independence to their colonies. Because The Portuguese were not willing to leave Africa. When the British and the French had left, the French, it was more of an arranged effort. But when others had left, the Portuguese were still seeing African territories as extension of their own countries. And it took a coup d'etat in Lisbon to actually lead to independence for these countries in Africa. And that was how come almost all these countries entered into civil war right from independence, because it was not well arranged. It was hastily given. So we are taught all that in school. And then this is not to say that every other person will pay attention to some of these things because I mean the ass in Africa currently, everyone is talking about science. You need to speak you need to study science to add value and all that. So sometimes people reluctantly study the ass. So you find fewer and fewer people trying to take the ass more seriously. And once you take it more seriously, you realise that you will more often stand out. I mean, because not so many people are paying attention to some of these things. And it's really a a problem. So in Africa, I believe that w from what I saw in the University of Ghana, you realise that there's comprehensive approach to this. We study our own regions, we study our neighboring regions, and then we move on to North America, Europe and even Asia. Because we were taught the the the opium war. And that had to do with China. Yes. So everything is taught. So when you paid attention and perhaps you leave school and still pay attention to the news and the dynamics, I mean, you are you are good to go. So we we are we are taught all that. Yes, and and and US history. I mean, we we from Abraham Lincoln the the Civil War, how it impacted Blast in America, everything is taught. so it's it's quite comprehensive and rigorous. Yeah. speaker-2: You speaker-0: Yeah, remember I remember I was in a hospital and there was a there was a nurse from from Kenya and she knew Cicero and she could speak she actually memorized Cicero in Latin, which is something you'd never see. Like it you would have to really look hard for someone from the US to be able to do that. And and I see how how well just things are taught different like just differently in different countries. Not you know, not just like in this example, but elsewhere as well. I Leela's got a question. speaker-1: Yeah, actually my question goes back to your earlier point about conflicts and their and violence and their background or reason. And you mentioned socioec economical issues. and I was wondering because I read an article recently, I think it was posted on the Red Cross website, and it said that there are over one hundred thirty armed conflicts around the world and more than fifty are in Africa. and many of these are, n not not considered to be wars because we they are within one country. So I was wondering, you know, there's a lot of n knowledge gap around these violent armed conflicts when it comes to you know, general knowledge about these events happening. And I was wondering if there's one case you would highlight that people should know about, should learn about. And of course the other question is what is the reason of these conflicts? is it is it based on economic issues, social issues, or something much deeper? So when during colonialism, the Europeans focused on where the resources are. So they come to the coast and they set up the coast with administration and everything. So the coastal communities, some of them receive education. There was some kind of urban growth around the coast and all that. But the interior, which is seen as the sources of resources, were not really developed. Now, over time, when after independence, we had that gap where the the capitals or the cities were more advanced. Than the rural communities where the resources were coming from. Now, over time, the people living around these resource areas, that is the gold mining areas, the timber areas, the cotton growing areas, the all the resource areas, thought that well, we needed a fair share of this Kitty, because you you took everything away from us as the as as as leaders of the country after independence, but you are not giving us anything. So it looks like the politicians were trying to perpetuate what the Europeans left. But the people were not ready to allow that. So if you took successionism, some people like in Katanga, Congo trying to break away from the bigger country, it's because of resources. Katanga has a lot of resources. In fact, the the the uranium that was used for the two atomic bombs that were created in the United States. And that were used in the in Japan, where part of the fuel was from Lumubashi in in DRC at the time. so that region was very rich. And it was one of the reasons the US did not want to allow the Soviets to take over that country, the the the DRC. And that is how come Bobucho Seseko and others were supported by the United States so they could contain communism in in in in in Africa. So if you look at that. Then that is socioeconomic because they wanted that well, if we had the resources, then we should also see some development. Not everything should happen in Kinshasa. We should also see something in Lumumbashi, where the uranium, the cobalt, the the the copper is being mined. So this is socioeconomic all. Another thing has to do with self-determination. Because right from self-determination is something that Defines the history of so many political entities across the world, including the United States of America, that well, if you are charging us taxes and you don't want us to have a say, then it's better for the United States to be an independent country back in the in the 18th century. So then self-determination is very fundamental, and many of these successionist groups believe that they have the right to self-determination. They believe that it is only when they have that self determination that they will be able to benefit or maximize their benefit from their resources. Other than that, the capitals are going to determine what they get, and sometimes they get nothing. So that is another thing. Another reason is the issue of social mobility. So Very low education, low quality education that does not add value to the person. And then he's not able to become the teacher that he wants to become, the doctor that he wants to become, he must move to a particular place or a particular ethnicity. So you go to some African countries and realize that some ethnicities seem to be more elite than others. Some tribes are more elite than other tribes. And that is being perpetrated. Now, those who are left behind. feel that by the taking off of arms, they will be able to get a fair share. And they will also be able to move socially and up the social ladder in order to gain some income and also become I mean, get the basic needs like housing, like water, sometimes as basic as water. so yes, the socioeconomic factor is very major. An example is Ghana, for instance. the n northern Ghana for a long time was very poor. For a long time. And in in fact, at a point when you were moving from the southern Ghana to northern Ghana, it was like you were traveling overseas, like you were moving out of the country. You know, that was that was how it was communicated. Then in the eighties, that gap was bridged. When roads and the extension of electricity was massively and intentionally pursued, and currently that gap is slowly being built. We are not there yet, but it's better. But in some countries, it's very in fact, these are on governance spaces. When you move out of the capital and the the the the further you go, the less the presence of government. Because I mean, people don't care. And when these people like example is Mali, when these people are left like that, they take up arms and they want to be masters of what they survey and ask for more autonomy or perhaps independence, i i wherever they are. And so this leads to a lot of conflict. The other thing is the identity politics. You know, are a minority in a country and no matter what you do, you are not your representation is not effective. You there is no way your vote counts. There is no way your your what what you say would matter. So these groups often find out well the best way to be had is to be a bit rowny or rogue. And sometimes when they do, they are here. They squat them around the table and discuss with them. So the question is, should we wait till it gets there? So I believe that if the resources Are equitably distributed, equitably. I mean, equality is always a myth. You can never have equal. I mean, even the socialists could not achieve that. the communists and all that could not achieve it. So that is not going to happen. But some kind of equity, some kind of intervention, so I mean social intervention is necessary, like health insurance, like water projects, conscious effort to give water to the people and things like that. go a long way to limit some of these conflicts that is seen to be to be to be plaguing countries that are otherwise growing economically. And to what extent religious issues are contributing to violence? I know that at least I read some of this when it comes to Somalia and Nigeria, for example, the persecuted Christians in Nigeria, and of course Mark Mali, Burkina Faso. so to what to what extent religion is a contributing factor to to these social economic issues? Yeah. So The the difference, however, is that if you took Somalia, it is predominantly Muslim. So their issue is not religion, their issue is clan. The interesting thing about Somalia is it is one of the most homogeneous countries in Africa. About over ninety percent of people in the country are Somalis. I mean, Somalians are Somalis, and they speak one language, from the north to the south. However, because of the differences in clan, someone belonging to one clan from the other, that's where we see fights. So the fight is along clans of the same people. So where there are no tribal differences, even the clan becomes a point of difference or identity. And Al Shabaab was able to exploit these clan divisions to cause mayhem. And currently it is the Al-Qaeda franchise. In the country. So, yes, they want more puritanical or salafist Islam in that country. That way we can say yes, by that standard, there's some religion there, but they want more of a puritanical Islam than a Christian Muslim situation. But in Nigeria, we have a Christian Muslim situation because that is also one of the few countries where the Christian population and the Muslim population is almost equal. So Nigeria is about 50-50 Christian Muslim population. And where they mix, there is always a clash in the middle belt of Nigeria where churches are raided and people killed randomly. And currently some people go to church with rifle because I mean they they they fear that I mean these guys will just enter and kill them and they said they're not going to allow that. So people now go to church with rifle. And that that is a soft rifle in church is something very serious, but it's happening. So that is it, and then in Mali is also predominantly Muslim, but it's still Salafism and Wahhabism, that kind of puritanical Islam that is causing the problem. And that is defining or should I say aggravating the socioeconomic gap. That is already existent. the thing about this is that they use religion and then they exploit the socioeconomic gap. So the the the extremist comes to you and say, Well, you know why you are drinking dirty water like a dog? It's because the people in Bamako, in the capital, do not care about you. We care. And and frankly, they may even sink a boho for these guys. They will sink a bowhole for for you to get good drinking water. So at the end of the day, you might follow them to fight the government. That is what is happening. so they are exploiting the kind of sectarian differences and their own version of Islam to pursue some of these things. But by and large, the kind of Islam that is that has been practiced in West Africa is known as the Maliki school of thought. The Maliki school of thought. It tends to imbibe the local quarter with religion. It allows that. So in Mal, you find someone mixes enemies with Islam. And it's allowed. But these guys came, the Wahhabis and the Salafis came and said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. If you do this, you have to be slaughtered. And that is where the differences is is is is the the the the line is drawn. And then they go ahead to exploit the socioeconomic gap. That hey, you are poor because the people south want to make you poor. And you you you you you see the situation and it's like they are speaking some facts. So you join them. So these are the ways extremists are exploiting the the so religion is a major factor, but in many places It is enhanced by the socioeconomic speaker-2: us. speaker-1: let's take, for instance, in DRC, we have an IS franchise known as the ADF in Eastern DRC. It goes around decapitating people and cutting, killing people in churches and all that. The DRC is predominantly Catholic. Predominantly is Catholic. But these guys have they started from Uganda and the and the Ugandan forces drove them, and they are now in Eastern DRC, and they are causing a lot of behavior. So There too, we have a clash between Christians and Muslims. And that is where we are facing a lot of a lot of problems. And then in Mozambique, Southern Africa, Cabo Delgado, where extremists are also taking over the coast. And for some time, they actually brought a major project to a halt worth over $20 billion. So you could just imagine the kind of economic benefit that people would have derived from it. But because of terrorism, that had to come to a halt. speaker-0: You know, it's it's interesting how when we talk about the these economic, these socioeconomic and cultural, you know, identity politics divisions, it's it's interesting how there's there's almost an amnesia in the West and I think it shows when you see Western institutions, especially at the international level like the UN and you know, the World Bank, et cetera, they they look at Africa like it's this sort of standout case and they translate these issues as specifically cultural driven or regional different or driven as opposed to just time. And, you know, I'm I'm thinking about this because, you know, in the West, it people forget that Italy and Germany as single countries are really new. You know, Italy it you know only became one country in like I think eighteen seventy or so. Yes. speaker-2: 87. speaker-0: yeah, same thing for Germany. And you know, these became world powers really quickly, but For a long time and and still in Italy, you see it with with football, the the the the the football politics are very local, you know, but you still see this and it it was it was it took hundreds of years for Europe to get to to where it's at and it was not pretty. It was it was pretty it was pretty pretty nasty. I mean, and the US is a new country, but you know, we we've had some pretty nasty moments as well. Yeah. And I think we translate these things is like, well, why can't Africa just do it well, because it took a long time for the West to get there, and now you're thinking that this lag time is a cultural thing. And there almost seems to be this amnesia in in the way that we that we teach, especially here in universities. And we're I mean, this is the one thing that the National Association of Scholars is really trying to fix because we we don't we don't see this sort of trajectory of tradition and Leela can can chime in on this. and and I and I wanna tie this back to to China as well because one of the things that we that we look at is is China. you know, how well before before speaker-2: for watching. speaker-0: we move to China, I wanna kick it to to to Leela to talk about the education thing 'cause she might have a slightly different take on it. speaker-1: No, I agree with what you said and I think it was relatively well put in this in this context. So we can move to to the China angle. It's I think it's very important for for Africa as a continent. We see a new wave of quasi-colonization when it comes to China and investing in Africa and purchasing the ports and the very important resources and so on. So I wanted to pick your brain on on this. Okay. Yeah, so that's a China resources. speaker-0: Yeah, China and and and its its investment, you know, it it's talking about is neocolonial to some degree. And what does that do for political independence? speaker-1: Yeah. So the Chinese presence in Africa has not been a recent phenomenon. at a time when the Soviets, you know, Africa, we were very unfortunate, just at the dawn of independence, the Cold War have started. And so you gain independence and then you have to choose between the West and the East. Whether you join the West, or you would rather join the Soviets or support the Soviets or any other. So that choice became very difficult for many African leaders. In Ghana, our first prime minister and president Nkrumah decided to play both sides. He went to John F. Kennedy because he had lived in the US in the 1930s. And in fact, he really wanted Africa to become like the United States. He wanted the United States of Africa. And he made it so clear. He said, Well, the US is strong because the individual states came together to form a country, and he wanted that for Africa, a federal system. speaker-2: and speaker-1: And he had attended two universities in the in the US and worked there, stay there for about 10 years before he moved there. So a decade was enough to understand the United States very well. However, at independence, he was caught because he found that because Africa was not evenly African countries were not evenly developed. Socialism was the way to go so that it's the center could control everything and perhaps redistribute wealth for the periphery to also gain. But at the same time, he was not going the communist way of total state control of things. So he went to John F. Kennedy and told him that, well, we need energy. We we we need energy and we think that we share history with you. You were colonized by Britain and we were also colonized by Britain and we you you fought for your independence, you've also fought for our independence and I think that we need that. And so John F. Kennedy actually gave him that money. That well, I'll give you money, you blow them down and then the whole port, a port and a town was sponsored by the United States and then an aluminum smelter was also sponsored by John F. Kennedy for Ghana at the time. And so the first dam, one of the largest dams in sub-Saharan Africa, was built by Ghana, Accra. And I mean Akosovo is closer to Accra. And that created the largest artificial lake in the world at the time, which is currently in Ghana. So what I'm trying to say is that the Kuma got that from the United States, and then he moved to Moscow and said, Well, you guys are also. We believe that you also believe in our costs. You don't like imperialism and all that. So we need a shipping line to help us with international trade. So the Russians also supported Ghana with the Black Star Line. And that was the first sub-Saharan independently owned shipping line, one of the first, yes, because Liberia also had something similar. And Ghana owned a shipping line that was sponsored by the Soviet Union. At a point, Both sides were forcing him to choose sides. And he said, Well, I am not looking right, I'm not looking left, I am looking forward. So that is how come he was one of the first pioneers of the non-aligned movement. That they wanted to with Tito of Yugoslavia, the president of Indonesia at the time, and the other leaders, Gamal Nasser of Egypt, they all came together and said, Well, we wanted to stay neutral from the Cold War. This, however, did not stop them from tilting to one side or the other more than the other side. And in nineteen sixty-six, Nkrumah was overthrown. And later it came out that the CIA, declassified files said, well, they supported this overthrow because I mean he was getting more to the left. All what I'm trying to say is that the even at the time, China did not support the Soviet Union. Policy in Africa. At a time, the kind of socialism that the Chinese wanted was different from what the Stalinists and others wanted. So in China, it was actually even a clash with the Soviet Union more than it was with the West. So in Zimbabwe, it was the Chinese that supported Zimbabwe to gain independence against white minority rule. So Robert Mugabe was supported by China. When the Soviets were supporting another group. So China has been around for a while. They supported the rail system in Tanzania. Then, as it became Nixon, the famous visit by President Nixon and how China was accepted in the global system, taking the permanent seats and all that, China became more audacious, more prominent, and it led to its the opening of its economy, and it became bigger and bigger. And with that, It's wanted to be more present in Africa because it saw it as a way to secure resources. So the the the the belt and belt and the belt and something roots. speaker-0: Belton Roll Initiative. speaker-1: Yes, it was Africa was very much into that project, the global project of I mean getting I mean building infrastructure to secure resources and all that. It was very much in there. And this also translated into doling out a lot of loans. And as in some of us have called it kind of a trap of some sort, because I mean, the laws did not come with anything attached. You were just giving money and the politicians were spending it the way they wanted. And now, in some of these countries, it has become a burden. And when that burden is created, it means you have to rely on the Chinese for a lot of things. They have to dictate to you a number of things. And so in Africa, there was a narrative. That well, the Chinese are not colonialists, they are not interested in colonialism and things like that. But increasingly, China's weight is becoming heavier in many African systems. And the days of talking about China not being interested in domin dominating African countries and and others are over. Currently, that that is not being said too much in 2023. Three Chinese Naval ships sailed all the way around the Cape of Good Hope, South Africa, and came to Nigeria for the fair sign. years ago, China was seen to be more influential in the South China Sea and other surroundings, but now it's expanding its rich. It has built one of the largest overseas bases in Djibouti along the Red Sea corridor. And so it increasingly shows that China is interested in not only the resources of Africa, but also maintaining military presence on the continent. And it's coming with a lot of situations because environmental issues from I mean by minors from China, the latest one happened in Zambia, where the a a a torzhic embankment broke and entered into the water supply of the country. You know, and I initially there were strong words from the government, but we we we didn't hear anything again. That shows the power relations between A growing power and individual African countries. So these are some of the concerns that have been expressed. And then in the DRC, it entered into a deal that was seen to be very asymmetrical because China was supposed to build some hospitals and some roads, and then in exchange, mine a lot of coal bats and other resources. The government of DRC asked for renegotiation, but so far we've not seen anything substantial. from from from that side. And so that that is the the the Chinese story as you speak. Yes. here at Cafe Berlin we have a tradition that a former speaker is asking a question from the next speaker and you have received a question from Mr. Elias Coop who is a member of the West Virginia Congress and I let Ian to ask the question. speaker-2: Thank speaker-0: Yeah, so he he had a really interesting question. drone warfare is advancing quickly and has become arguably the cutting edge of the modern battlefield. And in every historical period there is a technological advance and then there was some sort of usually low tech counter to that technological advance. And his question was what does that counter that you're seeing in Africa? Is that emerging yet or is that still to be determined? speaker-1: Okay. A defence minister in Mali was killed in an operation that was organized by terrorists who were using drones. As advanced equipment in surveilling the camp, this minister, defense minister, was stationed in and then getting in there to kill him. That is one of the latest examples we've had of a drone warfare. And the drone, the the southern is that the drone or the warring thing is that the drone is being used by terrorists. So not only are African forces. joining the drone revolution happening across the world, but also non state artists are using drones extensively, and which has raised a lot of concerns. The latest another latest use was a few days ago when it was reported that regional forces or substate artists in Ethiopia had used drones to attack the Ethiopian military headquarters in Addis Ababa. But more concerning was the fact that Addis Ababa is the aviation hub in Africa. And if drones are going to share space, armed drones are going to share space with airplanes, then we have a long way to go. So yes, the drone revolution in Africa is become very dangerous right from the word go, because extremists in Somalia are using it. Extremists in Nigeria have used it. Extremists in Mali and the other part of Sahel are using the technology. And at the beginning of this year, my firm, DevSec Analytics, we did some projections and we said our what is keeping us awake each night is the deployment, the the indiscriminate deployment of drones across the continent. And how that poses a lot of threats to the civilian population across the continent. If drones are used in northern Nigeria, they could also be piloted all the way from that side to Southern Nigeria where the population is most concentrated. And where, in fact, Western interest is most concentrated. The companies, the big organizations, and companies are concentrated. So, yes, that is a major threat. That is evolving so fast and it looks like we have no solution to that at the moment. speaker-2: Yes. speaker-0: That is truly terrifying. on on that unhappy note. our next guest is Thane Rosenbaum, who is a constitutional attorney here in the US. And what question would you have for him? speaker-1: I would like to ask that Is the US slowly entering into a constitutional crisis? I don't know if the word should be slowly, but I would like to use slowly for now. speaker-0: I think we've been there for a while, but I'll let you have I'll we'll pass that question on. speaker-2: you speaker-0: That's a that's a good one. You know, it's funny or it's not funny, but I had a friend in the lead up to the last election in Greece and she was watching the the debates and and she was like, What's happening? I don't understand what's happening and I'm like, Don't worry, neither do we you know, in in many cases. So it question. speaker-1: So some of the things I see are things we are trying to get rid of in Africa. To be sincere with you, yes. And and speaker-0: That's a that's a great speaker-1: and yes. For the personalization of power, the the the the role of the individual in the power relation. How the individual is so important in power and how there is no humility about it, it's been boldly communicated. It's something that I mean, because yes, I'm African, but I have followed US politics for while and currently it's a bit it's not confusing, but it's a bit unique. It's a bit unique in the way things are going. speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: That's a great question. speaker-1: Yeah. Fidel, thank you so much for your time and sharing your insights and help us to understand a little bit more about Africa, African secur security issues and the regional differences in that beautiful continent. Thank you so much again for your time and we also thank our listeners for tuning in today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm always available any other time. I'll be on standby. Thank you. speaker-0: You've been listening to an episode of Cafe Berlin, a podcast brought to you by the National Association of Scholars. If you like today's show and would like more content like it, Please be sure to hit like, subscribe, follow our channel, and do check out our website, www.nas.org. NAS is a membership organization. You do not need to be a professor to join. If you think education, especially our universities, have gone off the rails, we are the good guys. So if you like our content and like what we do, please consider becoming a member and we will see you next time.