Latest / Gospel Talks Podcast / #101 - When Your Church Doesn’t Share Your Heart for Evangelism (Part 2)

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#101 - When Your Church Doesn’t Share Your Heart for Evangelism (Part 2) · Gospel Talks Podcast

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This is part two of answering tough questions,
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a letter that was written to us by a pastor's wife.
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and the idea of these series of episodes,
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if you didn't catch the last one,
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you need to probably go back to get some context.
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But what do you do when your church doesn't share your heart for evangelism?
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especially as leaders within the church.
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you're probably going to have to listen to each episode in the series
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to kind of catch the context. Where we're picking up today is the power
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of modeling and modeling evangelism for people.
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Welcome.
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to Gospel Talks Podcast, where we help Christians all over the world become more
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effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.
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My name is George Binocka and with me today is Jeff Musgrave,
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the author and founder of The Exchange.
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Jeff, how you doing?
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Great d having a having a good week.
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It's been a study week this weekend,
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so I've always enjoys being in my study.
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That's awesome. that's and exciting stuff you're working on in your study.
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some things that we know are coming.
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And so very, very excited about that.
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Well, picking up in the letter and the email that Erica wrote us,
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awesome email, great questions and concerns,
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concerns we would share. ~ but we're picking up on this idea of modeling.
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Last time we we we left off talking about what is a genuinely evangelistic church
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culture look like.
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And Erica starts to describe some really practical things they've done there
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in that church. Good News Club.
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no, we started one here just recently in our church in in the Phoenix area,
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FCA, bringing ~ unsaved neighbors into their home and bringing some church members
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so they can see that whole interaction,
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~ teaching personal evangelism,
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which we're all the we're all for that.
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but the I guess the question I would want to start with here,
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Jeff, as we as we start to kick it off is.
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How important is it for pastors to model evangelism rather than simply preach about
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it?
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Well, I mean, i i in in many respects that's kind of one of those fool these
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questions because frankly, we all know it's imperative.
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Yeah.
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I mean, and I I
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think the very when when you see the definition of the various titles for a pastor,
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I really believe the main definition for an elder is the the word example.
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I mean, you're supposed to be demonstrating what the Christian life is.
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I think it's also important
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Mm.
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for us to remember that shepherds are also sheep.
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And
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just like all sheep, who we should be reproducing ourselves in our congregation,
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we really can't expect anybody else to do anything that we're
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not personally doing. ~ when I sit down and talk to pastors about this,
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I I try to use a illustration from my own life.
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we know the the concept of pace setting.
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when I ran my first marathon, I had a goal.
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That I wanted to run the marathon in four hours or less.
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I didn't care if it was four hours and 59 minutes and 59 seconds.
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I just wanted to get
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Mm.
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under the four hour mark. And ~ I ended up running in in four hours and 12 minutes.
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I actually believe I had the physical ability to to to run,
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but I I didn't have a pace setter.
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In other words, I was a bad pace setter.
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I ran way too fast at the beginning of the race.
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I got a little frightened that I was using too much energy up,
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slowed down way too slow. And and by the time I realized I was behind pace,
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I I'd I couldn't catch up. And ~ a pace setter in a in a big race like that
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is basically someone who's good at setting a pace,
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and they they wear usually balloon just so you can see them from a ways,
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and ~ and
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All you have to do to be able to get that particular pace is stay with them.
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You don't have to you don't have to pace yourself,
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you just stay with them. And I think that as pastors,
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we have to think to ourselves,
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we are the church's pace setters.
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We we have to
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Mm.
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be running the race, we have to be running the race at an appropriate pace.
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We have to be trying to help people to come with us.
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Yeah, I I totally agree. I mean,
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I wouldn't know anything about running ~ marathons.
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I've I've run some movie marathons,
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but ~ those are the
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Yeah.
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only kind of marathons I know about.
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but but running an ahead leading by example,
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definitely an important thing.
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~ Paul said, follow me as I follow Christ.
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it's not like do as do as I say,
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not as I do. That's a terrible philosophy.
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Of leadership. And if you're in there are times when a leader has
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to make an exception and you know,
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~ in terms of typical policy, that there are guidelines in our life,
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but that they aren't necessarily the law.
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But that that's not the kind of thing we're talking about where it's kind
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of like a gray area. We're talking about this is something scriptures commanded
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everybody to do. I I've always kind of been curious,
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and I I've seen people who teach a lot about evangelism,
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and
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They're very good pa like they're gifted pastors when it comes to evangelism,
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but they don't bring people along with them.
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It's kind of like when the church loses them,
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it loses the evangelist in the church.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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~
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but can you, I mean, I think probably one of the frustrations they feel
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is can you actually teach people to evangelize without having to bring them along?
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Can you bring them along without making like the whole interaction awkward or,
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you know, how would you what would you what would you say to that?
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Well,
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I think very first of all, it's not always possible to bring someone to every lunch,
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every coffee, every Bible study.
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But but it is often possible. And when we can,
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it is a powerful training opportunity.
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So I think watching for that and looking for those opportunities,
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it really does help. ~
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Mm.
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I think a lot of times you can just ask your ~ friend,
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you know, I I I have ~ someone in our church.
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that I would love to bring with us.
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I'd love for you to get to know them and I think you would enjoy meeting them.
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Could could they come and study with us?
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And you know, just asking those questions ~
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Mm.
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usually fixes the the awkwardness of the problem.
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And I it really is a very powerful training opportunity.
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~ being in the birthing room, so to speak,
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watching someone come to Christ,
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there's nothing like it.
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Yeah, yeah. so how how have you f found a way as a pastor
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to take people from, okay, I know I'm supposed to be doing that,
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to actually be willing to come along with you,
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if you're willing to take them along with you,
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how how how do you actually help them into come along with me,
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come come do this with me? How do you get them to actually take action
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on evangelism?
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Well, I ~ the whole idea of the exchange is ~ don't just tell them to do it,
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show them how, teach them, give them the tools.
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I mean, that's that's really the responsibility of leadership in the church
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is to equip the people for the work of the ministry.
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And so I we love I mean,
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George, I love doing weekend training events where I go into a church and spend six,
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six and a half hours.
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with a with a group of people inside of that church and just help them to
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be able to get the concepts of how to have close relationships with people,
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how to get into conversations that go deep,
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how to turn conversations to the gospel.
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Those are all just you you have to help people know how.
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if if it's not possible to have a training event at your church,
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it is very possible to use the exchange online.
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People can do that as individuals.
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There's individual license, there's church license,
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having ongoing training so that as new people come in,
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they're continuing to train. And and I think that once you have people trained,
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because we've watched this happen,
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they okay, I know how, but I still can't get started.
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Helping them make a plan. I mean,
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who who are your fine five? What what are these people like
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what what would you think would be a good first step with this person
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and just helping them make a plan,
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giving them a little bit of an accountability for that first step?
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you know, once once most people get into a gospel conversation,
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they're gonna do fine on their own.
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Mm-hmm.
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they don't need coaching every step of the way.
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It's getting them started. And I actually think that that's part
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of the pastor's responsibility as a coach.
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~ is to to help people make plans and then help them to follow their plans.
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Hmm. Yeah, I I think you're right.
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you know, to add a layer on top of that,
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and I I know you're gonna have thoughts about this.
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We all know as well, pastors know that the that by studying the sermon yourself,
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you get far more from it than anybody else does.
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It's like if you ever taught a class,
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preparing to teach the class gives you more knowledge and value than even just being
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in the class, those that are learning under
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Absolutely.
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you.
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So going and actually doing it and and going to somebody who's got a plan
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for you to come along with them and you get to see it and be involved
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and actually have an experience in evangelism is far more valuable than just
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studying the theory. ~ because you're
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Mm-hmm.
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you're you're putting something into practice.
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I I don't know if you have any any other thoughts about that,
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but I think it's so important church members actually be involved.
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Yeah, absolutely. No, I think you just said that well and it's it's it's important
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~ to I I actually think sometimes getting someone to help teach those classes
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if you're running them in a church,
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~ is really valuable because as people invest,
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they they begin to ~ take action.
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Yep. Yeah. Making a peop making somebody a leader in the thing.
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Now, I think what Eric is kind of verbalizing here in this in this letter
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and what some pastors I know I've heard say is,
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Hey, I've modeled it. I've taught it.
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I've invited people to participate.
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They're still not doing it. what do you say to somebody like that?
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You've sat down with a lot of pastors.
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What what what do you tell them?
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You know, I have a pastor friend who set up a entry Sunday school course
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for visitors of their church. So as someone comes
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Mm-hmm.
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in, he invites them to go to this church and he invites regular church members
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who've been in trained in the exchange to attend with.
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And then after the class, he says,
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You know, the the next thing for you to do is to study this Bible study we have and
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You just met so-and-so. Why don't you?
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And he literally sets them up for it.
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And I I think helping people get into it,
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setting them into an environment where in which they are more likely to succeed,
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those things are really, really possible and really,
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really valuable. ~ I feel like when a person has done it,
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then they're gonna want to continue getting better at it.
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They're gonna want to do it again.
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~ whereas
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If
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a person hasn't done it, they're they're just a little ~ I mean,
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the reason they're stuck is because they're afraid.
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they don't know what to do next.
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And so if we can help them get over that hurdle,
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~ then they're gonna want to do it themselves.
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Yeah. I I mean ~ performance anxiety,
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right? It's like I had a guy learning how to do the sound booth at
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the church here and he's like he wanted to watch a couple times.
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And for the guys who have been in that seat and have been doing it all these years,
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they're like, Why do you need to watch?
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This is so easy. I think we forget how hard it was the first time we did something.
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You know, we have this little bit of
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Yeah, absolutely.
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amnesia, this the the
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Yeah.
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hurdle to get over. And and so I think we have to remember with evangelism it's
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no different. ~
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You know, I I found this other part of the email really interesting.
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She says, my neighbor you know,
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the church there, the people in the church were saying my neighbors wouldn't want
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to talk about spiritual things.
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what do you say to Christians who say that their neighbors aren't interested
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in spiritual things?
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Yeah. you remember that old Dale Carnegie saying you can make more friends
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in two weeks by becoming a good listener than you can in two years by
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~ trying to get people interested in you.
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And ~ I I f I feel like if we can take that concept and instead of trying
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to get help people interested in listening to the gospel,
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really get interested in them,
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showing them your interest.
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And it's it's kind of like that old saying,
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we've used this before you can lead a horse to water,
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but you can't make him drink, but you can
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Mm. Mm.
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put salt in his oats and helping ~ your people
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to really genuinely desire to make the people around them thirsty
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for Jesus by being the salt God made them to be.
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And I think as we interact with people and show them
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the love of Jesus through our life and by trying to care for them,
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~ then it's gonna be a whole lot easier.
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those conversations are gonna happen.
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so just I I even that I feel like we have to help people get past that that thinking
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and help them to realize we have to create that hunger and thirst.
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Yeah. Yeah, you taking an interest in them to begin with.
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So so important. I feel like a lot of that statement there of
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my neighbors aren't interested in spiritual things,
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I think behind some of that it's gotta be some fear back there.
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There's gotta be some fear of rejection.
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I I don't know how what would you say?
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What's a what's the percentage of that you would guess is fear of rejection?
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Well, ~ i I I th I large percentage.
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I actually think there's another one.
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A lot of times when I ask people in our seminars what's holding you back,
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somewhere in the group someone will say,
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I'm selfish. I I'm I I got stuff I want to do with my time,
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and I just don't seem to ever make the time for somebody.
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And I I really feel like sometimes
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these
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words that we use and frankly I find myself doing it sometimes too.
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So I'm not in any way pointing fingers.
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I think they
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Mm-hmm.
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are really excuses for just not taking the step to to to go reach
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out to somebody.
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Yeah. Yeah, I I I couldn't agree with you more because I mean,
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after all, ~ I don't know it's just ordinary conversation.
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I think isn't this w one of the things we actually do?
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We we overthink what this is all supposed to look like.
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and w s I I think we think as believers that an evangelistic conversation
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is supposed to look like the parting of the Red Sea,
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you know, something
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Yeah.
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miraculous and extraordinary, something you'd find on Channel Ten news.
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but it's not like that. I mean wha what
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When you when you describe to people what are the actual bridges toward
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the gospel really look like, what what kind of things do you point out when
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you go on seminars and things like that?
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I think first of all, we have to recognize that without God drawing me,
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I wouldn't have been interested.
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And
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Mm.
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really genuinely counting on God opening some doors for me.
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but ~ I I feel like helping people to see Jesus in my own life
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so that so that in this
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broader conversation where I'm not trying to preach anything I'm not trying
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to teach anything I'm just demonstrating the reality of how Jesus
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has made a difference in my life how he's making a difference in my life
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the the the fact that I'm caring for them is growing out of that.
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I think another bridge that people forget ~ sometimes people are thinking
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I I don't know how to
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get a conversation to the gospel.
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And I I I try to help them see rather than trying to think,
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how do I get the conversation to the gospel?
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Think how do I get the conversation deeper and start looking for soul needs and from
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Mm-hmm. Hmm.
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there get the conversation to the gospel.
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So to
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Yes.
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to me, some of the bridges are those relational connections in which I've I've
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earned
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the the right to be heard by demonstrating Jesus.
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I've I'm purposely taking conversation deeper by showing my care for them.
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And then I'm watching for them to express those soul needs.
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And then then I'll take the bridge to the gospel.
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Yeah. I I love the way you put it.
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I mean, the goal is to make the relationship deeper,
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the friendship deeper. ~ and that's the key to even taking that transition
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to spiritual conversation, making it all the more effective.
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If it is a genuine relationship,
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that's gonna go way better than if it's if they feel like it's a sales pitch.
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you know, if they feel like they're being greased a little bit.
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the I think the other thing
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~ not trying to be cynical, but the other thing behind these types
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of comments from people in churches,
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all of us as Christians, when we make comments like my my neighbors don't wouldn't
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actually care about spiritual things,
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maybe one of the things buried in there is we are neighbors with people that
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we would not naturally choose to be friends with.
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I guess the question maybe that we should talk about is.
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How do you develop a relationship with a neighbor that they mow
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the lawn clockwise and you mow it counterclockwise and you know,
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you don't get along? They they they root for the Patriots,
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you you root for the Dallas Cowboys,
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or the Denver Broncos, you know.
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what do you what do you do with those kind of circumstances?
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Well, I think we have to remind ourselves first that Jesus was
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the friend of publicans and sitters.
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I tend to say that for myself.
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Jesus was a friend of sinners.
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I should make
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Mm.
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that friend. But the publicans were almost hated people in the culture.
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So this is not just they're tainted,
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but they they they're bad. I don't want to have anything to do with them.
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And Jesus purposely sought them out and purposely wanted to connect with them.
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And I feel like we have to recognize but for the grace of Jesus,
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there go I. I mean, I that would be my life if if it if Jesus had not ~ wooed
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me to himself. And I j I feel like if we can get over some of our even distaste
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of some of the lifestyle issues and just recognize
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Mm.
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they their greatest need is Jesus.
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And I
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have the distinct privilege of bringing him into their life.
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Yeah. Yeah, I I totally agree.
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I I think evangelism at some level has a propensity to get messy.
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I think it's one of the reasons that we glance over the people that
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are already in our lives that are lost,
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~ that we already have pre existing relationships with,
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is we're maybe scared for the relationship to get a little messy.
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w how as you've gone around and trained
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believers in evangelism, how have you helped people to see
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the relationships that are already in their lives that are primed for evangelism?
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The stu the the people we tend to glance over,
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relatives and coworkers and things like that.
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We're always looking for somebody who's who doesn't know us.
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We don't know them. It's going to be like maybe as low risk as possible.
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I I think there's a genuine fear of messiness.
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I mean, I I I get it. I mean that means you're going to make Thanksgiving messy
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a little bit if you if this doesn't go well.
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So, you know, how do you deal how do you deal with that?
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How do you walk people through that?
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I
18:14
I feel like helping people think through first steps.
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I I feel like they a lot of people are thinking,
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I've I've got to walk up to this person and tell them,
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I need to witness to you about Jesus,
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or ~ you
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Mm-hmm.
18:30
know, you're you're in trouble and Jesus is your answer.
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And I mean those stark
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Thoughts that we have about how this conversation is going to
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go are really difficult. And helping people to just see what those first steps
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are and how we can get closer.
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Sometimes one of the questions that we see come up in seminars almost every single
18:49
week is I I want to get close to my sister,
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but she's told me, don't ever talk to me about this again.
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You know, and helping
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Mm-hmm.
18:57
people to see you are not responsible.
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That every single time you're with your sister,
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you have to push Jesus. I mean,
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Mm.
19:06
what what they really need from you at this point is to start doing some repair
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on this relationship that seems to obviously have been damaged.
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And thinking in terms of how to get that sister to think,
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here comes so-and-so, I'm so happy to see them.
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I mean, that's what we really want first,
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and and then
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moving into and and pray for open doors helping people
19:31
Mm.
19:31
to see when you when you've got an ongoing relationship and you've already tried
19:37
making it happen every single time is not going to be helpful pray for
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Mm.
19:42
open doors and then i tell people tell god make it obvious to me because
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i'm a little dense and
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Mm-hmm.
19:48
and i i need you to make it clear
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And then promise God, I'm gonna walk through the doors.
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He opens. And and I I don't you feel,
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George, that some of this is ~ all about prayer?
19:58
I mean, as I've been thinking
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Yeah.
19:59
about this situation, Jesus said this kind cannot be driven
20:05
out with anything but prayer. And ~ my wife and I were talking about it and
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She reminded me of the JL Frazier book Behind the Ranges.
20:14
And ~ Jayo Frazier was working with a group of people called the Lisu tribe
20:20
in Upper Burma. It was a right on the Chinese border,
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and it was a very pagan culture,
20:26
and they he was making no progress whatsoever.
20:29
He was getting discouraged, he was all by himself.
20:32
I mean, there's all kinds of
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reasons for him to be totally discouraged.
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And Joe Frazier wrote a letter to his mother,
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she was across the the world obviously,
20:43
and asked her to solicit a group of prayer partners.
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And he gave them specific prayer requests to pray for.
20:50
And he said it was then that I began to,
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and these were his words, get traction in my own prayers.
20:58
Was
20:58
it was when he had prayer help that that he began to get traction in
21:03
his own prayers and and God broke through and they had just unbelievable amounts
21:09
of people that came to Christ.
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And there were all kinds of difficulties trying to help them make changes
21:14
in their lives and and that sort of thing.
21:16
But I really believe that we've got to recognize that none of this
21:20
is gonna happen without God working,
21:22
and often God uses
21:24
prolonged prayer in which
21:27
Mm.
21:27
we just really get serious about it.
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In fact, in the KJV in that passage,
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it adds the the concept, ~ prayer and fasting,
21:35
that that when when prayer doesn't work,
21:38
then more prayer is probably needed.
21:40
Hm. Yeah, I I think you're exactly right.
21:42
if we're not praying about these things,
21:44
w why do we expect, you know, God to miraculously do something?
21:49
and sometimes he does even when you're not praying.
21:51
but he definitely has given us a a prayer as a tool,
21:55
a mechanism to get him involved in the situation,
21:57
whether it's a prodigal son or a family member whose entire lifestyle wor worldview
22:03
Even their marriage is antithetical to the Bible.
22:07
~ all of these things, grace is capable of changing all of these things.
22:12
Jesus is capable of changing all of these things.
22:15
and and I think what you're saying,
22:17
what I love about what you're saying is your reputation with your family
22:21
and what your family thinks about you when they first think about you,
22:23
the kind of person you are, really matters.
22:26
and so it's like we're we're
22:27
Sometimes we're courteous to our neighbors and our neighborhood in more ways than
22:31
we're courteous to our family members,
22:33
because we're s assuming on the relationship.
22:35
We presume because they're relatives,
22:37
we don't have to be courteous.
22:38
and that's actually part of what Erica touches on in her in her email is you know,
22:43
here in this situation, the church has a bad reputation a little
22:47
bit in the neighborhood. And y we know in ministry,
22:50
reputation matters a lot. It apparently from what she says here that
22:54
Community ~ remembers the church is internally focused,
22:57
disconnected from the community,
22:59
primarily interested in getting people into the building.
23:02
this is a tough one because a lot of churches have a reputation a little
23:05
bit like this, not all of them,
23:07
obviously. How does a church, though,
23:09
rebuild its credibility in a community that has a negative perception towards that
23:15
church?
23:15
Yeah. I think the very first thing is helping each I mean,
23:20
frankly, have a family chat. Help help people recognize this is a problem
23:25
and we we are the only people that can fix it.
23:28
And then helping each member live out their personal walk with God
23:33
~ kindly and gently in the neighborhood.
23:35
~ I think
23:36
Mm.
23:37
that by purposely demonstrating Christ's love as an institution.
23:41
There are lots of things that can be done.
23:42
And probably, George, you're much better at this than I am.
23:45
~ you are by far ~ the event guy when it comes to these sort of things.
23:50
But you know, floats and parades,
23:52
booths at fairs, trunk or treat.
23:55
I I know of one church that did a trunk or treat and they had a
23:59
mag a Christian magic show in the auditorium and they invited people
24:03
on a regular basis. They had like 20 minute shows every 30 minutes.
24:07
And ~ they would they would tell everybody,
24:09
hey, in just about ~ 10 minutes,
24:11
we're gonna have a Christian magic show in in the auditorium and trying
24:14
to get them inside the building.
24:16
~ walk through Christmas, you you've done that,
24:18
Easter egg hunts. ~ I I think movable church signs can be a little corny sometimes,
24:25
but I actually think thoughtful church signs that people look at and
24:29
it makes them think.
24:31
Those all those things are things that as as a group,
24:34
as a as a as a family, we can make an impact on the people around
24:38
you probably have more ideas ~ than than the things that I've mentioned 'cause this
24:42
is kind of your forte.
24:43
Yeah, I think how the community perceives your church is super,
24:47
super important. And there's a sense in which there's there's
24:51
a level of relationship with the community that you take at large.
24:54
Meaning, I'll give you an example.
24:56
I went and did the invocation at the new city council for Santana Valley.
25:00
We just became an incorporated city,
25:02
and hugged the vice mayor. The vice mayor is actually a pastor.
25:06
of a church and but his main job is being the vice mayor of this new town
25:10
and ~ you know hugging council members or ~ mayors of
25:15
a I mean we barely know each other but we've had enough interactions you
25:20
can go and hug somebody and so you know most city councils in in in
25:24
the place you are at depending on the region there's some regions that that would
25:29
not invite a a person like me to do an invocation but if you're in
25:33
a place where that
25:33
sort of thing is good, great, taking donuts or doing things of love
25:39
for public school teachers, ~ going
25:41
Mm.
25:41
and being an encouragement to firefighters,
25:44
having a first responder Sunday once a year,
25:47
getting involved in the foster or adoption system and just telling
25:52
the whole community, if you're a foster parent in our zip code,
25:55
we'll let you have a date night.
25:57
Bring all your kids to the church.
25:58
And do you like you have to plan for those things?
26:00
You can't do those things haphazardly.
26:02
but but there's lots of things you can do to show it's just like
26:05
in a personal relationship, but you're having a relationship church to community.
26:07
It's on a grander scale. But it's like just like in a personal relationship,
26:11
they have to know that you care first.
26:13
Same thing with the community.
26:14
They have to know that your church genuinely cares and it's not just about getting
26:17
something for the church. ~ and then they will go,
26:20
hey, this is a loving church that cares about our neighborhood.
26:24
That
26:24
That is a huge leg up for a pastor versus they invite us to their events,
26:29
but they've never come to one of ours.
26:31
you know, you should go to the pancake breakfast for the city t for the town and,
26:35
you know, celebrate with it. You know,
26:37
just those kind of things go a long way with your
26:39
That's great.
26:40
Yeah. Yeah. anyway, ~
26:42
No, I I knew you'd have a lot to say about that.
26:44
You're very, very good at this.
26:46
That's good.
26:46
I I do love building relationships,
26:49
showing love, showing care. ~ how we come off as Christians representing
26:54
our churches gives an impression of the community.
26:56
I especially a pet peeve. You see church bumper stickers,
26:59
and it's the people that cut you off in traffic,
27:02
and you're sitting there like,
27:04
take off your bumper sticker for your church if you're gonna drive like that.
27:09
~ and so we we have to be careful.
27:11
We all have to have that equation in our mind.
27:13
so I guess we've kind of started to answer this next question,
27:16
but can a church just decide we're gonna do outreach and everybody's gonna trust us?
27:20
You know, b g they're gonna send their kids to our church.
27:23
how would you answer that question?
27:24
Yeah, it it it is going to take time.
27:26
And frankly, we have to persistently and relentlessly show people the love of Jesus.
27:31
I mean, that's really the the the bottom line.
27:33
And you
27:34
Mm.
27:34
you can't it's not one and done.
27:36
This is a this is life as a Christian in this community.
27:40
I do think the the smaller the city the harder because in this particular
27:45
Mm.
27:45
situation it it's because
27:47
The damage is deeper. I mean, it that people know more.
27:50
~ I actually think you could also say the smaller the city,
27:54
the easier it is, because it's easier to
27:56
Mm.
27:57
~ make a big splash in a small pond,
28:00
so to speak. word travels faster,
28:03
good or bad. And if we can
28:04
Right.
28:05
if we can start getting that good word going,
28:07
I I will say this, ~ in a bigger place,
28:11
it may be necessary to start.
28:14
Try to s draw a circle that you want to impact and think in terms of,
28:19
Mm.
28:19
okay, we've
28:19
got this neighborhood right here.
28:22
This is the neighborhood we're gonna do our best to to communicate
28:26
the kind of church we are. And if if we get that done,
28:29
then then maybe a a little larger ~ so that we're we're not just putting
28:34
an ad on the radio that's gonna go off to the whole city and and no
28:37
one is even gonna hear what we,
28:38
you know, know what our the name of our church is.
28:41
So the bigger the city, we have to think differently to be able to make that happen.
28:46
Yep, agreed, agreed. last question.
28:48
What does it look like for a church to repent of an unhealthy
28:51
Mm.
28:51
culture? And how long does it take to change that reputation in the community?
28:57
Well I I I I think it's important.
28:59
I mean, the key word is the word repent.
29:01
~ repentance must be expressed.
29:04
I mean, there there is no repentance in unless we've expressed it.
29:07
And so somewhere
29:08
Mm.
29:09
along the line, we have to believe that there's a need and then figure out
29:14
a way to express that to people.
29:17
You were talking about conversation with the vice mayor.
29:20
it it would be appropriate.
29:22
It to to have a conversation. I know in the past our church has had this kind
29:26
of a reputation. And I I just want you to know that that's not the way
29:30
our church is on the inside. And I want to I want to be demonstrating that
29:33
to this community. We we know that that was bad.
29:37
And we we're we're our our group is committed to loving people.
29:42
And I just think h voicing that,
29:44
expressing it, and then ~
29:46
Mm-hmm.
29:47
I
29:48
I love this definition of repentance.
29:49
It is a change of heart that produces a change of action or a change of lifestyle.
29:56
And if if there's not an actual change of lifestyle,
29:59
a change of action, then then it it's not real repentance.
30:03
And we just have to recognize number one,
30:07
it's important, but number two,
30:08
it has to be visual. It has to be something that people see.
30:12
Yeah, I I agree. a hundred percent.
30:14
I I think it's I mean it's obviously not gonna happen overnight.
30:18
you have to do something, you can't just s say something.
30:21
Words are cheap, especially today.
30:23
Words are cheap. They're they're a dime a dozen,
30:26
they're all over the internet,
30:27
you know. Anybody can say anything,
30:29
doesn't mean anything, you know.
30:30
Yeah.
30:31
I think that having maybe a little bit of a time frame in your mind.
30:36
I've heard
30:36
Yeah.
30:36
it said that sometimes it these sort of things can take as long as five years.
30:41
And I to
30:42
Wow.
30:42
me that's a whole lot better than saying,
30:45
I don't know if it's ever gonna happen.
30:46
Do do you know what I mean? So I've got I've
30:47
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
30:49
I I'm I'm taking incremental steps and I believe something good's gonna happen
30:53
out there in terms of this relationship with the community,
30:57
rather than just
30:58
being negative about what the community thinks about us.
31:01
I think we've enjoyed this topic so much,
31:04
even though it's a hard one and we're praying for churches like Erica
31:07
and her husband's. ~ we we are thankful that people are voicing these kind
31:12
of issues. We get to address them from the Bible.
31:14
And Lord willing, we've been encouraging to you.
31:17
if you guys have any other questions or things going on in your church that
31:21
you know you'd like Jeff,
31:22
and myself to address and and kind of look at the Bible and see what it has to say,
31:26
talk to you from our experience.
31:28
We'd be happy to do it. But don't lose heart.
31:31
The Lord of the harvest said, the harvest is plenteous.
31:35
It's just about getting people that are willing to do the work
31:39
and encouraging them to come do the work and showing them the riches
31:44
of doing that work and seeing God do something in somebody's life,
31:48
change somebody.
31:49
~ and so pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send forth
31:54
laborers. We'll pick up with part three of this series next week.
31:57
We love you guys. We'll see ya then.