Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / (Part Two) Kids, Screens, and Schools: How worried should we be?

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(Part Two) Kids, Screens, and Schools: How worried should we be? · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: This is parent data. I'm Emily Oster. As a parent
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: of a teenager, it's easy to be constantly terrified by
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: phones and social media. I think we sometimes have a
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: sense that social media is like a black hole vortex,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: and if our child gets on it even for a second,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: they'll be sucked in, never to be heard from again.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: But sometimes when our kids do get access to social
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: media or YouTube or text chats, they can actually surprise us.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Sometimes they seem to make better choices even than we do.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: I know my own kids spend an awful lot of
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: time telling me not to phone zombie, while they explain
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: that it's important to set boundaries with your telephone. I'm
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: sure that that is important, and one day I'll presumably
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: learn it. In our last episode, we talked with the
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: New York Times journalist Jess Gross, who conducted surveys in students'
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: technology use in schools to fill in the gaps about
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: what we don't know, and those results they really lined
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: up with the black hole vortex fears. I will tell you,
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: reading through all of these responses, I felt physically ill.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: She described parents feeling helpless. She described dropping test scores,
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: diminished attention spans, and Her reporting aligns with what we've
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: heard from the Surgeon General when it comes to social
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: media and our kids. To ask ourselves, is this safe?
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: From Jonathan Height, once kids get a smartphone, you're totally
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: cut off. They used to spend a lot of time
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: with other kids, and that does begin to go down
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: in the two thousands. And that's why I say twenty
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: ten to twenty fifteen is the great rewiring of childhood.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: And it validates a lot of what we're afraid of
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: about technology. So how can we push back? That's what
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: my guest today is here to talk about. Doctor Michael
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Rich is a pediatrician and he's a self professed mediatrician.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: The director and founder of the Digital Wellness Labs at
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Boston Children's Hospital. He's also been leading a team conducting
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: surveys and gathering data. But his goal isn't to uncover
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: why technology is so dangerous, but how we can learn
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: to productively coexist with it and even use it to
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: our benefit. His work aims to take the pulse of
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: our current moment, but not necessarily wish for the past,
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: and he has some thoughts about how scared parents really
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: should be. We talk about how to be sane and
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: realistic about technology with the understanding that it's not going anywhere.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: And we talk about how to teach kids early on
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: to be good digital citizens, and how parents need to
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: rethink how we use technology in front of our kids. Yes,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: I should put my phone down, thank you, doctor. And
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: we talk about strategies for engaging with your kids as
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: they engage with social media. I will say this is
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: one conversation that I used almost immediately later in the conversation,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: we talk about engaging with your kid's own YouTube, and
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: I did that and it was weird, but also we
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: learned that my son and I both really really love
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: that TikTok where the person talks about looking for a
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: guy in finance, and it was a great moment of connection.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: I'm looking for a man in fineance. Just fun six five,
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: blue eyes, looking for a man in finance. You haven't
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: heard this. It's like the song of the summer Man
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: in Fine six five anyway, Okay, after the break, doctor
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: Michael Rich, Doctor Michael, thank you so much for joining
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: me at parent Data.
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: I'd love to start by having you just introduce yourself
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: and tell us what you do.
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: Okay, my name is Michael Rich. I'm also known as
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: the Mediatrician. I am, in order of importance, parent, a pediatrician,
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: child health researcher, and I have a specialty in the
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: way that the screens kids use and how they use
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: them can affect in positive and negative ways their physical, mental,
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: and social health.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: I want to start this conversation with data. So you
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: conduct something called the Digital Wellness Pulse Survey, and it
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: is among our best data. I think about how kids
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: are using media and technology, and I love you to
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about what those surveys are,
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: how you operationalize them, what kinds things you're trying to learn.
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: Absolutely well, a pulse survey is akin to your doctor
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: taking your pulse right at this moment, So they are
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: a slice in time. And what we are trying to
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: do is actually speed up the pace of good, rigorous
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: health research and turn it around to the public in
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: a timely enough way that they can actually use it.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: And so we conduct three to four Pulse surveys every year,
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: usually focused on a specific area, such as we had
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: recent ones about video gaming and their effects. We had
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: one about social media spaces. What types of spaces are
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: conducive to positive, authentic work with social media and which
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: ones can get people into trouble. And basically the idea
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: behind this is how can we educate, enlighten and empower parents, children, educators,
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: basically anybody who works with young people to parent and
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: teach well in the digital ecosystem. We are not in
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: the habit of saying turn it all off, because that's
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: not going to happen, and we are realists and pragmatists.
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: But we are also realizing that there are many positives
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: that have come from what is called social media, although
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: no one has the same definition for social media. And
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: as you might imagine, with the litigation and the legislation
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: around social media, a lot of the companies are running
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: for the exits and say they're messaging companies, they're broadcast companies.
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: And we have a long way to go before legislation
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: or litigation is going to make things better. We should
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: keep working at it. But the reality is for me
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: is that I have to give kids and parents the
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: information they need right now to be healthy right now.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: So when you do these post surveys, how do you
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: find kids to do them? What's the what's the population
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: you're trying to survey.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: Well, the population we're trying to survey is basically kids
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: from eight to twenty five or twenty six. I know
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: I use that term loosely, but that is kind of
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: the arc of development that is most vulnerable to issues
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: again positive and negative. It's also the age group that
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: is early adopters, and they really own the internet, if
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: you will, or own the social media space. And what
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: we need to do is give them the vision and
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: the power really to take care of themselves and each other.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: So, of the things you have learned about kids social
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: media use, is there a headline finding or two headline findings?
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: You would say this is the thing I most want
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: people to hear from what we've seen in the evidence.
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: Yes, I think the first one is the kids are
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: all right. The kids are all right, They're doing okay,
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: And in many ways we need to step back a
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: little bit from our paternal and maternalistic instincts to protect
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: the poor innocence. The poor innocence are way better, way
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: more fascile in this environment than we are, and so
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: I feel that we need to follow their lead while
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: giving them guard rails from our our experience, our theoretically
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: fully mature executive functions and help them stay out of trouble.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: And so one of the key things that I say
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: to parents is to observe what I call the three
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: plus two ms. Okay, the first M is model the
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: behavior with your screen us that you want to see
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: in your kids, because they listen to about one percent
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: of what we say and one hundred percent of what
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: we do. The second is to mentor them. With each
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: new device, application platform they go on, sit next to them,
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: just as we will sit next to them in the
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: front seat of our automobile and help them learn to drive.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: The reason I use the term mentor instead of teacher
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: is that mentors learn as much from the mentees as
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: the mentees learn from the mentors. And a lot of
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: parents hesitate to go into the digital space because they
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: feel their kids are better better at it than they are.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: The kids still need us, They still need us to
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: guide them to the kind of healthy, smart, empathetic good
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: citizens that we want to see them become. We have
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: to recognize that they live in a seamless, single digital
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: physical environment that they move back and forth between. And
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: the concept of screen time limits is obsolete. It never
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: worked in the era of television anyway, but it's obsolete.
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: What we need to do is be using these screens
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: in conscious, purposeful ways, which includes turning them off when
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: we're done with them. The third m and the one
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: that kids and parents push back against the most is monitor.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: Parents say I don't have the time to monitor everything
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: she or he does online. The kids say, I want
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: my privacy. This is not about privacy invasion or anything nature.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: What it's about is being present in your child's digital life.
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: And what I suggest is that they do know their
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: kids use their names and passwords, but they respect their
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: kids privacy as much as they can. The fact that
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: parents can monitor the kids changes the kid's behavior much
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: the way random drug testing in the workplace changes workers' behavior.
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: So I think that it's up to parents to understand
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: that the kids need their privacy, but the kids actually
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: both need and believe it or not want their parent
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: to be there so that if they come across something
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: that freaks them out, something that scares them, something they
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: don't understand. Their parent is not a police officer who
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: you hide it from. Their parent is a supporter of
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: their success, who you can help, Who can help them? Now,
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: if we can observe the three. Yeah, they're two goodies.
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: Two m's that are goodies. The first one, of course,
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: is mastery of this environment, really being able to know
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: how these tools work, what they work well for, what
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: the pitfalls are, when where and how to use them,
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: and when where and how not to use them, including
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: using them for what they do well and turning them
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: off at the end, because that's when we make memories.
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: And that's the really great m We make memories in
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: our real life interactions with people. We don't remember, you know,
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: interactions online, but we do remember camping with our family,
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: or you know, kicking a soccer ball around the backyard,
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: or you know, just making a mess in the kitchen
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: while trying to cook something. These are the things that
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: behind us together. These are the things that gives us,
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: give us meaningful sustaining relationships.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: I love all of that, And now I want to
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: ask you some more skeptical questions about how one would
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: implement these things. So, okay, the first question is about limits.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: So you say at the beginning, you screen time limits
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: are are obsolete. But effectively, I think that you're you're
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: arguing for a kind of a kind of limiting in
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: the sense of when you say turn it off when
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: you're done. My kid would never be done with YouTube,
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: and YouTube would never be done. YouTube has always got
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: more shorts to like serve you. So when we think
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: about limits, you must mean something about limits. Although I
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: take it that it's not like twenty minutes and then
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: you're and then you're done always right.
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: Well, I think that screen time per se is unmeasurable
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: now because of the way we use it, dipping in
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: and out of it all day long. So instead of
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: screen time limits, non screen minimum. In other words, have
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: a conscious period of time or periods of time in
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: which there are no screens present. And that's quite intentional.
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: And you know, there's some ones that are really important,
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: such as no screens at the dinner table, a sit
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: down family meal every day is the single most protective
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: thing you can do, not just for their nutrition but
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: for their mental health. Obviously, no screens in the bedrooms
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: at night. It's good to not use screens in the
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: last hour before sleep time. And I call it sleep time,
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: not bedtime because so many people have screens in the
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: bed with them. So it's about being planful and purposeful
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: about your health. And it's also about, you know, putting
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: screens away when they're not needed to do homework and
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: do your homework. One of the myths that we all
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: persist in is that we can multitask with media. The
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: reality is is the human brain works on one channel
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: at a time. When we think we are multitasking, we're
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: actually rapidly switched tasking. And that means we don't give
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: our full attention. We don't think deeply about what we're
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: doing at any one point in time. We're skipping to
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: the next thing.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The second piece that I think is hard, is
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: very hard for people, is the is the monitoring. And
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: I actually it's it's interesting. So the part where I
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: have access to my kids passwords or emails and can
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: check on them. I think many parents are comfortable or
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: understand that, even if it causes conflict. The thing that's
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: tricky is with so much of the screen time that
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: our kids are consuming, it comes in a form that
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: I can't predict what it is. You know, it used
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: to be you sit down in front of the Little Mermaid.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: If you watch the whole Little Mermaid, you know what's
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: going to happen. You know, you know when it's going
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: to be scary. You know, when it's not going to
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: be scary, they come and tell you, you know, Ursula, Yes,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: I understand, she's not real. The eels can't get you.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: You know, you kind of know what's coming. But even
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: for younger kids, when they're consuming media through YouTube or
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: when they're older through through you know, Instagram, they're going
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: to see things that you can't predict. And it's not
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: reasonable to imagine that we're sitting next to them watching
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: YouTube for one thing, you would go insane. You can't
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: even believe how terrible some of this content is. But
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: also it's not reasonable. So the question is what does
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: it mean to monitor when I'm I'm not able to
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: watch the whole time and know what it is on there?
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean in many ways, this goes back to
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: the second am of mentor, which is how do you
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: set your kids up for success? First of all, when
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: they ask for a device, whether it's a smartphone or whatever,
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: sit down with them and ask them why they want it,
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: And if it's because everyone else has one, that's not
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: a great answer. You know, you want to have them
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: tell you the ways in which they're going to use
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: this powerful tool. We don't toss the car keys at
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: are screaming four year old to calm them down and
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: say have had it, but we do hand them a tablet.
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: So the first thing is to have an open conversation
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: as you introduce these devices or platforms and be explicit
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: about it. Say, look, you're going to come across hate sites,
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: You're going to come across pornography, You're going to come
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: across things. These are out there. There's no way we
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: can protect them from it any better than teaching them
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: to protect themselves. Right, instead of giving them a fish,
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: let's teach them to fish and be explicit about what
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: to do with them, when to do it, where to
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: do it, and how they go about it, and explicitly
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: when they are not to do it and what they're
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: where they're not to go, et cetera, et cetera. And
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: a lot of parents say to me, when can I
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: give my kid a smartphone? And I say, when you're
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: ready to talk to them about pornography? And that holds
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: them up short a little bit. But we have to
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: recognize the fact that it's out there. It's a click
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: away and if you know they don't stumble across it.
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: Certainly a friend of theirs will introduce them.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the other piece of this that maybe
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: parents we'll find would find useful to hear and think about,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: is we think about this as I'm going to give
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: my kid a smartphone and then it's it's done. But
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: I like the car analogy because I feel like, you know,
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: when I let my kid drive first, we're going to
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: edge into it. You know, you drive to your friend's house,
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: you drive to school. We're not immediately driving, you know,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: from Providence, New York City, like the day after you
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: get your driver's license at night, at night exactly. Similarly,
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: there's a there's an argument, I think for thinking of
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: the phone as something that one earns points in or
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: kind of eases into, and which could be pulled back.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: You know that we could say, after three months, let's
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: let's see how it's going, and we're open to pulling
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: back some of the privileges or some of the time
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: or some of what you Whether you have this if
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: it is not serving you, or if we think it's
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: interfering with some of these other more core things like
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: family time, sleep, school.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, let's think about this power tool and whether
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: and when a child really needs it a smartphone is
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: more than a million times more powerful than the computer
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: that landed Apollo eleven on the moon, and ninety nine
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: point nine percent of what's on there, frankly is distraction, right.
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: I mean, you can, you can use YouTube for research,
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: but most people don't. Most people don't, right, you know,
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: but you know a lot of people learn how to
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: build things from I.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: Did once fix the garbage disposal based on a video,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: and it was It's the most impressive thing I've ever
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: done to my husband. Full sun. Yeah, that earned you
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: a lot of points, like two childbirds nothing. I fixed
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: the garbage disposal from a music I can't believe you
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: were able to do that. Yeah, pretty aggressive.
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: Put that in your pocket and need it for your
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: bank account? Okay. So absolutely it is hard to decide
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: when to do this, and and I think the one
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: of the key things about the mentorship is starting a
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: dialogue that you intend to continue. Privacy with kids means
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: so mom and dad can't see for the most part,
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: they have no concept of who else is out there
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: or what those people are capable of doing and are
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: trying to do with them, And so so I wouldn't
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: let it go three months. I would have it be
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: an ongoing dialogue as they go. And you know, I
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: think that it's really important to stay present. That means
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: putting your own phone down. You know, that means turning
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: away or closing your laptop and being there for them.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: So you are not only modeling for them the behavior
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: you want to see in them, but you are being
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: with them in that moment. Sit next to him when
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: he's watching YouTube, no matter how egregious what he's looking
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: at are, and or play that video game with it
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: you think you should never touch because what you're doing
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: then as you're saying I love you, I respect you,
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: I want to understand what engages you here. You are
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: coming into that space as the paduan, as the student,
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: and you are learning from her or him about how
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: do you use it technically while you're also teaching her
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: or him to be a human.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: More parent data, including doctor Rich's thoughts on phones in schools,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: why the scary stories about your kids are easier to believe,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: and maybe how social media can be an instrument of
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: world peace. After the break, can we talk a little
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: bit about phones in schools, because you have said that
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: all or nothing approaches to banning phones in schools won't
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: keep the desired outcome. That's a quote, and I think
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: we should ban phones in schools, So I would I
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: would like to hear your I would like to hear
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: why you said that.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: Well, the practical and cynical side of me says, you
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: can ban all you want, but the kids will have
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: a workaround, right, The kids will always have a workaround.
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: I don't like the word ban. I think the word
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: ban raises the hairs on the back of everyone's neck,
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: and they want to push back against the ban. Let's
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: talk about optimizing learning opportunities. Let's think about what happens
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: in school. You have didactic learning of math, science, English,
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: et cetera. Do these devices help that or do they
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: distract from it? I think the answer to that is
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: obvious instructional time. I am as or more concerned about
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: the non instructional time, because I think the most important
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: thing we do in school, particularly in the early years,
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: is social emotional learning. It's not learning the facts and
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: skills that they're going to use in life. Other than
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: how do I get along with people, how do I
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: solve conflicts, how do I address challenges of various kinds?
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: And my real worry is that if we have smartphones
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: in the kids pockets between classes, that's when mom is
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: saying that kids still picking on you in the playground.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: What did you get on that quiz? Do I need
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: to talk to your teacher? Et cetera. So the kids
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: never learn to solve problems for themselves, to follow a
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: challenge and commit themselves to it. If they've got Mom
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: in their head, kind of like Jimminy Cricket sitting on
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: their shoulder, they never get that independence. Now, the word
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: ban is horrible for a whole lot of reasons. We
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: all object to it. Why not talk about optimizing educational opportunities.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: And one of those opportunities actually is teaching them to
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: use these devices in conscious, purposeful, mindful ways. And that
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: is a role that I think is important for smartphones. Now,
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: it doesn't mean that every kid should have a smartphone,
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: but we should actively teach them digital literacy and digital citizenship.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: But you agree that phones in the classroom going bing
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: bing bing bing while you're trying to learn math is
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: something we should try hard to avoid.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, But I would again approach it as a strengths
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: based approach, a glass half full approach, and say, what
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: are we here to do. Let's do math, and let's
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: make math fun and exciting instead of just droning on
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: and on about it. You know, we have to realize
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: that those pin pink things are way more fun than calculus, right,
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: But so it calls on the teachers to do a
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: lot And actually we're edging into something now that I
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: think we really need to talk about it. And that's
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: the role of jen Ai. Yes, and you know, we
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: are playing catch up frankly with the kids already. And
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: unfortunately what's happened is that education, which has historically been
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: a series of hurdles, we have to clear to move
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: to the next level, you know, whether it's you know,
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: graduating from high school to college or even just passing
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: to the next class. Yes, chat gpt can write your
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: papers for you. Yes, chat GPT can pass the law, bar, exam,
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: et cetera. The risk, so where we are actually right
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: now is that teachers are being forced into being cops
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: to see if the kids use chat gpt to write things,
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: instead of teaching them to learn to use chat gpt
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: as the powerful research tool it is, but respecting themselves
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: enough to take care of the work at hand. To
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: do the work and present it as their original work
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: and recommend to them that this is actually disrespecting themselves
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: to use something you know, from chat, GPT or online.
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: We run the risk of graduating a whole lot of
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: people who got good, solid b's all the way through
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: school and came into the workplace knowing nothing because they
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: went the path easy, path of resistance. So I think
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: that the most important thing we can do here is
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: encourage our kids to demand to do the work. In
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: other words, you know, because they under standards what goes
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: into them and what they are able to do in
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: terms of synthesizing it, that really matters. It's not the great.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: So you said, I want to come back to something
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: you said earlier, which is that the kids are all right.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: And I think this is it's a pretty meaningful sentence
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: because you hear a lot of the opposite and whether
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: it's in you know, some of these conversations with the
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: Surgeon General around John Hight around the kind of digital
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: childhood being a disaster, there is a strong sense in
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: which they are not all right and it is in
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: part a fault of phones and technology. And I read
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: your position is a little different, but I'm curious how
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: you react to some of that almost like doom scrolling
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: approach to children.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: Well, let's face facts, a dystopian book sells a whole
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: lot better than one that's practical. Right, Let's phase it
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: right up there, you know, because it, you know, basically
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: reinforces our fears and it The thing that I worry
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: about coming from John and Height is you know, he's
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: basically saying, the devices did this to your kids. The
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: reality is that we did this to our kids. We
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: were the ones who cut back on free play. We
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: were the ones who were fearful of the world out
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: there and wouldn't let the kids go out in the
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: backyard and not come back till dinner time. So we
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: have to be conscious of how we contributed that. We
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: also put them on these devices without that education that
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: I'm calling for for the schools and for families really
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: is that when we put a powerful device in someone's hands,
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: we have to understand whether they are going to be
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: responsible for it, whether they can respect themselves and others,
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: and also what the consequences should be in advance for
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: this kid. Ask the kid what what should happen if
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: she or he misuses the device. So I think it
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: is a good thing that the Surgeon General is flagging
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: the use of social media as a potential problem. I
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: don't think a warning label will ever work. There's not
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: just the practical issue of how do you make it work.
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: But as you can see, all the social media companies
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: are saying they're not social media.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: And so we had to fight at my house about
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: whether LinkedIn and TikTok are both social media, and my
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: kids were like, there's no dancing on LinkedIn. My husband
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: was like, well, it's for adults.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: Which either means it's boring or there's something really.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Cool something LinkedIn children.
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: Well, I argue that the way we use screens today,
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: all media or social media, even you know, watching Netflix
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: across town from your friends on while you're on FaceTime
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: with each other or messaging with each other, this is
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: a social event and much of the you know, draw
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: of things like TikTok or Fortnite or Minecraft is not
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: the game or the process itself, but the connection with
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: other people and you know, the people's attention paid to you.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: Where we get into problems with this is we expect
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: these media to be as meaningful and deep and sustaining
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: as real life relationships, and we use these devices and
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: these platforms to promote ourselves, to market ourselves to the world.
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: Look at the great vacation I've been on, my dad's
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: new sports car, my hot new boyfriend. We aren't truthful,
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: we aren't authentic in the way we use it. We
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: only show a piece of ourselves, and others come to
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: that seeking connection and they say, oh my god, that
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: person is happier than I am, more fulfilled than I am,
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: because they know their own limitations, they know their concerns,
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: And so I think that we need to learn to
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: use social media in truly authentic ways where we talk
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: about not just the great things that we've done or seen,
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: but the things we fear, the things that we feel
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: weak on, the things that we feel we need from
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: each other, and think about our real relationships in life.
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: They are not with people who are perfect. They are
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: people with people who are imperfect and love us despite
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: our imperfections in many ways because of our imperrections, because
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: we complete each other. Right, you know, your husband couldn't
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: fix the disposal. You completed his world, you know, you
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: know so. But seriously, you know, I think that when
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: we think about using social media in ways that are true,
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: and there are some groups who do this very well.
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: Groups that outright bands on social media are going to
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: really hurt, which are the marginalized kids in our society,
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: those kids who are bullied, those kids who are disabled
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: in various ways, LGBTQI plus kids. These folks have formed
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: communities online that see them, hear them, validate them, support them,
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: and love them. And we don't want to lose that.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: And we want to learn from them because they are
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: coming from a place of need rather than a place
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: of superiority. And I have this fantasy that someday there
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: will be kids in two different countries who are being
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: authentic and know each other very well, whose leaders say
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: that is the enemy, you know, harm them, take up
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: arms against them, and the kids are going to say, no,
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: I know them better than I know you. Why should I?
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: So I actually see socialcial media, if we humans can
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: use it correctly, as potentially an instrument of peace.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: So I want to ask you one other sort of
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: parent parent panic question, which is about I think what
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: you call problematic interactive media use the sense in which
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: you some kids seem to maybe we could do a
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: better job mentoring but they basically seem to have close
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: to a healthy relationship with media. Parents will worry, like,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: is my kid's reaction to the like are they are
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: they doing it too much? How would I know if
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: my kid was quote addicted to screens?
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: Right? Well, as you put the quotes around the word addicted,
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: I guess you've read far enough that you know that
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: I think this is not an addiction. An addiction is
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: actually a poor model for what's going on. I'll start
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: from that. I'll start from the kids who are really
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: affected and work backwards to the rest of humanity. So
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: we have, as you know, a clinic dedicated to this,
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: the Clinic for Interactive Media and Internet Disorders, where we've
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: been seeing kids for seven plus years. We have yet
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: to find a young person who is in some ways
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: impaired or dysfunctional because of their screen use that did
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: not have an underlying psychological stressor that was driving that use.
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: We have found that, you know, there are four really
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: predominant ones, some of which are either undiagnosed or subclinical,
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: and then not in the interactive media space, some of
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: which were diagnosed and undertreated or underappreciated in terms of
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: the intensity of it. And it's just sort of manifested
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: itself in in the digital space. And those are and
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: our acronym for it is a sad patient. That is
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, social anxiety ad ASD, autism, spectrum disorder,
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: and depression. And virtually all of our kids have one
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: or more of these. We have yet to see a
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: kid for whom everything was going great and they went
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: down the rabbit hole. They go to the internet to
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: feel better, to feel in control, to feel mastery. And
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: so if you think about it, a kid with ADHD,
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: you know, spends their day in class feeling like they
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: can't keep up, they can't follow. They go out to
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: the playground, they can't follow the conversations that are going on.
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: They come home and they sit down in front of
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: call of duty and they are amazing. Right. In fact,
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: many of these kids with attentional issues are better than
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: so called neurotypical kids. And I use air quotes around
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: neurotypical because I hate that word. I think we are
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: all neurodiverse in various ways, and we use that word to,
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: you know, may to other people who are less than
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: or different than me. In our opinion, I think we
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: all bring a set of strengths and limitations to this,
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: and I think we have to recognize that. Okay, so
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: when is this kid, you know, in trouble. This is
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: tough for parents, and we definitely get calls from what
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: I call the worried well because parents have not experienced
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: this environment. They did not grow up in this environment,
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: and when they see their kids staring at a smartphone
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: all day, it seems like they worry when a young
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: person is not able to live their life in terms
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: of establishing and maintaining relationships socially, when they're not sleeping adequately,
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: when they're falling behind in academics, when they are losing
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: touch with their parents in terms of communicating with them
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: or being present with them. That's when they get into trouble,
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: when it starts impairing aspects of their life. Now, these
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: kids are in a different environment than we've ever been
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: in before, and I actually call it the next normal
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: because today's new normal is tomorrow's old normal. This is
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: a moving target. In fact, we're dealing with three moving targets.
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: The development of the child from infancy through childhood, adolescents,
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: and young adulthood. The constantly evolving and rapidly changing digital ecosystem,
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: which is both affecting that development and reflecting it because
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: of what they create on it and then get responded
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: to it, et cetera. So screen uses not like television anymore.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: It's a dialogue with the world. And the third is
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: the change in all of our behavior because we have
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: these devices. We are just as guilty of staring at
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: our smartphones in every spare moment as they are. And
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: so I think, first of all, I want to get
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: rid of that word I just used, which is guilt.
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: We should just dump the parent guilt because there's lots
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: and lots of it out there. I've screwed my kids
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: up and that's one of the things that I really
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: worry about books like The Anxious Generation, because it just says,
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: you know, you screwed your kids up, right, or don't
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: bother with them or whatever? Right? I mean, I think
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: this is the same problem with the film The Social Dilemma.
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: Very well researched, etc. Laid the problem out exactly and
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: then left you hanging right. And so I think we
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: have to take take a step back and say, let's
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: understand the arc of development that kids have. Let's be
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: present in it in every way we can, which means
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: we have to sit down next to that kid and
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: play call of duty with them.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Okay, I'm not going to do that,
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: but it's a good tip.
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: Oh come on, come on, Emily, you can do what.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: I've taken your point about. We don't do video games
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: in my house, but we do do YouTube, and I've
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: taken your point. I'm gonna I'm going to invest a
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: little in uh the is It Cake YouTube shorts that
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: to predominate my household at the moment.
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: Right, and and and be and dialogue around it.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, you know, is it Cake?
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: You may find you you might right, well, and you
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: might find how interesting it is? Right and you know,
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: and then you take them to the Great British British
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: Banking Show or something like that. Right, I mean, if
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: you are present in that instead of sort of disdaining
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: it or saying, oh, it's a waste of time, your
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: kid will love it for one thing, right, but also
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: you are learning the world they're growing up in, and
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: you're being present just as you would be present, say,
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: you know, if you took them to a birthday party
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: or to a playground and you are observing what they
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: like and what they don't like. They want our attention
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: when parents are out of the room. I asked my patients,
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: what could your parents do better? Almost always the first
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: thing out of their mouth is paying more attention to me, right,
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: And so you know that's the same kids who the
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: parents say they never tell me what they do or
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: what their day was like or whatever. They're just nonverbal.
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: They really do want us to be present with them.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: They really do want us to share life with them
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: and laugh at the silly stuff with them, right, There's
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: nothing wrong with being silly.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: That's a great note to ed on. Thank you so much,
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: doctor Wrich. I really appreciated this was delightful.
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: Oh good. Well, I hope some of it's useful. And
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: you know, I'm glad to know that your garbage disposal
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: is well taken care of. Thank you again, absolutely all right,
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: be well.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Parent Data is produced by Tamar Avishai with support from
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: the parent Data team and pix. If you have thoughts
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: on this episode, please join the conversation on my Instagram
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: at prof Emily Ostar, and if you want to support
• 42:38
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• 42:41
  Speaker 1: at parentdata dot org, where I write weekly posts on
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: everything to do with parents and data to help you
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: make better, more informed parenting decisions. And if you've enjoyed
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: these episodes on kids and technology, you're going to love
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: the upcoming virtual event that we're hosting. I'll be in
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: conversation with John Height, the author of the best selling
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: book The Anxious Generation, on Wednesday, September fourth, at one
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: pm Eastern ten am Pacific time. We'll be talking about
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: the data behind phones, social media, and mental health, and
• 43:12
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