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Why simplicity matters in project management · Project Podcast

0:08
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
0:12
the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
0:15
the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host
0:18
today. This podcast, we're talking
0:21
about simplicity. It's a topic that crops up
0:24
relatively often when I interview senior project
0:26
professionals about how they make the delivery of their
0:29
projects a success, and one therefore worth exploring for
0:32
you. To get to the bottom of this
0:34
deceptively complex subject, I'm joined by Nathan Hellebrand,
0:38
global delivery director of Babcock International Group,
0:42
who's bread and butter is highly complex projects, and Mike
0:45
Hudson, Interim strategy Management Director at the
0:48
National Trust. Both are chartered project
0:50
professionals, so listen on to find out their advice and their
0:54
thoughts on keeping things simple.
1:02
I'd like to welcome both of you to the APM Podcast.
1:04
Thanks for joining me today. I think let's begin by each of
1:09
you giving a brief overview of your role and what that
1:12
encompasses, and perhaps an idea of the kinds of projects you'd
1:14
lead. So Mike, would you like to go
1:18
first? So I'm the interim strategy
1:23
management director at the National Trust and the, the kind
1:27
of units I suppose is the best way to describe it that I, I,
1:30
when we, we kind of encompass strategy planning, research,
1:34
PMO, performance and insight. And so we kind of operate at
1:38
that kind of enterprise level supporting the exec team.
1:41
So that I suppose the role of the team is really around
1:46
providing high quality impartial advice, kind of critical friend
1:51
type, well, lots of actionable insight and we kind of own a
1:56
number of organisational processes.
1:59
So it's keeping those as streamlined and as integrated as
2:01
possible. So we kind of managing kind of
2:03
risk, but not getting in the way of people getting things done
2:07
because ultimately it's about us delivering our strategy.
2:11
Sounds great. How many project professionals
2:13
do you have within the National Trust and can you give an idea
2:15
of the types of projects or programmes people are working
2:18
on? Yes.
2:20
So we have I think at the last count over 450 project
2:25
professionals in the organisation, a range of of
2:29
different types of projects. So we have projects around
2:33
restoring nature. We've got projects around
2:37
conservation, which is probably the thing that you would most
2:40
associated associate us with commercial type projects.
2:43
So food and beverage, retail, that sort of thing.
2:46
And then we've got a whole gamut of marketing IT, probably most
2:51
things you can think of. We do quite a lot of civil
2:53
engineering. We have lots of reservoirs and
2:57
regulated structures and things like that to look after.
2:59
So yeah, a whole kind of range I would say.
3:03
OK. Thank you.
3:03
And Nathan, can you tell us a bit about your role and the
3:06
kinds of projects you work on? Absolutely.
3:09
So I'm the global delivery Director for Babcock.
3:13
I sit within our Chief delivery office for the group and that's
3:17
made-up of a number of functions which includes project
3:20
management, procurement, quality, IT and cyber
3:25
engineering, transformation and facilities.
3:29
And my role encompasses developing and delivering our
3:33
strategy and key cross functional programmes that we're
3:38
we're doing across those functions within CDO.
3:42
And then also the other half of it is providing a level of
3:45
governance and assurance across the group to a number of our
3:48
customer facing programmes too. And Kyle, what programmes the
3:53
are you working on right now without going to specifics
3:55
obviously so. Within within my team, we are
4:00
leading some large digital transformation programmes.
4:03
So looking at some of our kind of key enabling capabilities
4:08
across the group for delivery, we what my, my previous role
4:16
before this within the organisation was
4:19
professionalising the project management function with, with
4:22
Donna Cynic as well. I think you did that one the
4:24
last conversation or we've had with her.
4:26
And so that was another kind of big operating model challenge
4:30
that involved process, procedure and people.
4:32
So a quite diverse set at the moment and more to come in 2026
4:37
as well. OK, sounds exciting.
4:41
I it's a bit of an unusual topic, simplicity in projects.
4:46
I don't think that's probably on any exam paper or framework I'm,
4:51
I imagine, but something that I've heard the more senior
4:55
people I talk to in projects, the more this idea of simplicity
4:59
comes up. And there's a quote from Steve
5:02
Jobs of Apple that that was in Business Week when he says
5:06
simple can be harder than complex.
5:08
You have to work hard to get your thinking clean to make it
5:11
simple. But it's worth it in the end
5:13
because once you get there, you can move mountains.
5:17
Would you agree with that place of you?
5:20
Yeah. I mean, I would, I would totally
5:22
agree actually. I think the more complex
5:25
projects I've been involved in over time, the more complex they
5:28
get, the greater the need for simplicity for lots of reasons,
5:32
but not least for the people who are involved in delivering them.
5:35
So I think it's it's vital and the, I suppose the more senior
5:38
you get, the more that becomes part of what you can bring to
5:42
that kind of project and the kind of context environment that
5:45
people are operating in. When we talk about simplicity,
5:48
is it simplicity in understanding what what what the
5:51
outcomes are? What the purpose is?
5:54
What do you think of when you consider simplicity in complex
5:57
projects? The starting point for me would
6:01
always be the vision of the project and the kind of related
6:05
set of objectives. So I suppose in my career I've
6:08
I've been involved in projects at different stages.
6:10
I've started off early stages and had to work to to get that
6:13
in place. But I've also picked up projects
6:15
part of way through. And if you're in a kind of turn
6:18
around situation, I would say that quite often that's the
6:21
place to start. You can ask some quite simple
6:24
and straightforward questions about what what people think
6:26
they're doing and why. And if you get a whole variety
6:29
of answers, then it starts to tell you that you're not, you're
6:33
not kind of getting that kind of level of cut through that you
6:36
would, you would want to. So really kind of honing in on
6:40
those objectives. And as Steve Jobs says it, that
6:43
may take a little bit of time, but that's, that's it.
6:46
It pays back I think in in spades if you do that.
6:51
Nathan, what are your thoughts around that?
6:53
I completely agree. And I think simplicity is is an
6:57
underestimated value and it's something that you learn to
7:00
appreciate more as you become more involved with bigger, more
7:04
complex programmes and something that you learn.
7:07
I think sometimes we think that complexity is a way of
7:12
justifying contribution or, or making it seem like we know what
7:15
we're we're talking about. And I can't remember who said
7:17
it, but to kind of build on, on what we talked about, I think
7:20
complexity is the enemy of execution.
7:23
I think that's very true. OK.
7:25
And Mike, what have you learnt about simplicity in projects?
7:28
It's a bit of a big question, but and when did you start
7:31
thinking about this idea of simplicity?
7:35
A few years ago I did a online course around leading complex
7:41
projects and as part of it you have to have a a complex project
7:45
or programme to to use as a case study.
7:48
And it made me reflect that. I don't actually often reflect.
7:53
I'm quite a doer, quite a pragmatist.
7:55
So forcing myself to kind of reflect on what I'd learnt from
8:00
running a complex programme over the course of kind of six weeks.
8:03
It the, the kind of breakthrough moments we had was where where
8:08
we made things simpler and we we made things clearer for people.
8:12
I think when you start your career in kind of project
8:14
management, you're so keen to to get the thing done and
8:18
understand that you'll be starting on relatively
8:19
straightforward things. But it's only as you get into
8:22
more and more kind of complex situations, especially with
8:24
stakeholders, both internal and external, we can over complicate
8:27
things. And what a lot of the time what
8:29
people crying out for is just cut through simplicity.
8:33
So it's, I would say it's around the kind of vision objectives.
8:36
It's also around team roles and around making sure that they're
8:40
simple and understandable for people.
8:41
And then most importantly around decision making.
8:43
So what's the sort of minimum information we need to make a
8:47
decision? Who has those decision rights
8:49
and then keep the momentum going?
8:52
Because complexity can kind of stifle momentum, I would say.
8:57
So when you're working on through a project, wherever you
9:01
are in the life cycle, do you consciously look through a lens
9:04
of trying to keep things simple as you work through the project
9:08
cycle? If you join a project part way
9:11
through or whatever, is that top of mind or do you just, is it
9:16
just a kind of like regular check you think to yourself or
9:19
when there's a problem, you think, how can we make this
9:21
simple? It's just how you actually make
9:23
it work in practise. Yes, a good question that I
9:27
think it's a, it's probably a slightly unconscious thing.
9:31
It was probably not top of mind. But I think the more complex
9:35
projects that you work on, it's so difficult to keep everything
9:39
to keep everything in in one's head.
9:41
So you're relying on lots of other people.
9:43
You rely on everyone else doing their roles well.
9:46
So for me, it's about keeping the environment that people work
9:49
within kind of as straightforward as, as possible.
9:52
So I probably do consciously do that.
9:55
I'm not always thinking every single situation.
9:57
We've got to make, you know, simplicity is the thing.
9:59
But I do think there's something about, yeah, you just asking me
10:02
these questions, but yeah, really makes me reflect, I think
10:04
how how do you do this? But I think it is about making
10:06
that operating environment straightforward for people.
10:09
So does that mean? Is that translation to kind of
10:12
clear and direct communication and decision making?
10:18
I think that's a huge part of it.
10:19
I think as we were saying before, some people can try and
10:22
hide behind complexity, but also you get a huge range of
10:26
stakeholder opinions around complex projects.
10:30
And I suppose not everyone's going to get their way.
10:33
But if you if you operate in an environment where everybody
10:36
thinks they are getting their way, it's, it's ultimately
10:39
counterproductive. So I think there's something
10:42
about in a polite and helpful way cutting through a lot of
10:47
that when you can and getting that kind of and I think
10:50
clarity, decision making is hugely important.
10:53
Nathan is, I mean, what have you learned about simplicity in
10:57
projects and is it a conceptual and approach to projects that
11:00
you've deliberately thought about over your career?
11:02
Is it something that's just surfaced as you've gained more
11:06
experience with complex projects?
11:09
But I think it's a bit of both. So you know, my career has been
11:14
within engineering based projects and programmes and I
11:20
started, I didn't have an engineering degree.
11:23
So when I first started in the industry, I found it a huge
11:28
challenge to understand the complexity of some of the
11:32
projects that I was in. And so that gave me a real
11:35
appreciation for one, understanding what's happening,
11:40
but also the needs to be able to simplify in a way that you can
11:44
get many stakeholders linked to a project or a programme to a
11:48
point that they understand what you're trying to do and how
11:50
you're trying to do it. And, and that is really for me a
11:54
key in being able to, to deliver successful outcomes.
11:57
So part of it, I think was born from a place from where I
12:01
started. But the more you get involved in
12:03
more complex programmes, the more you realise that you you
12:06
won't have all the answers. And so recognising that actually
12:11
being able to use everything you're disposable and the
12:14
breadth of experience and stay across who you're working with
12:19
to help drive different thinking so you can simplify complex
12:24
problems is is really important. So, so I think it's a bit of
12:28
both. I think it's something that that
12:31
I encountered quite early on, but it's something that the, the
12:33
more you, you, you kind of developed your career in project
12:37
management that you, you really need to bring to the forefront
12:40
of how you're managing. It's making me think that the
12:44
idea of having diversity within project teams where people have
12:46
come from different backgrounds, have different ways of thinking,
12:49
actually prompts the people who are leading that or managing it.
12:54
Explain it in simpler terms. So it's kind of checking in that
12:58
you understand at the core what the project's about or what
13:01
you're setting out to deliver. Is it?
13:02
Would you agree with that, Nathan?
13:06
Yeah, absolutely. I think, I think that's
13:09
completely true. You know, your, your strength is
13:12
in diversity. Having, having, having one
13:14
answer from one person all the time is, is not conducive to
13:18
delivering complex programmes. And so I think that's a huge
13:22
part of it. Mike, I'm going to ask you, how
13:24
do you go about setting up a project or kick starting a
13:28
project when you first begin working on one of establishing
13:31
this? I guess it's a culture of
13:34
simplicity or keeping things as simple as possible.
13:37
Would you have any advice to people who are thinking, yeah,
13:40
this, this makes sense? I'd like to give it a go, but
13:43
translating it as a kind of ideal into everyday life, is
13:49
there any advice you would give? I know I've mentioned this
13:53
before, but I think just going back to that kind of vision and
13:55
objectives side of things, I just think it's so important.
13:58
And I think Nathan was saying before you've got, you've got a
14:01
wider project team. So not just your own
14:03
organisation, but the other organisations, organisations
14:06
that you're working with. Everybody's kind of
14:08
understanding that elevator pitch for the project.
14:11
Then you're giving yourself a much greater chance of
14:15
succeeding you, you're giving yourself a much greater chance
14:17
of working well together because you're all pointing at the same
14:21
same thing. So investing time in really
14:25
understanding everybody, understanding and playing a part
14:28
in the vision, developing it so they own it as well.
14:31
And also the objectives that kind of flow from that.
14:34
One of the techniques that I learnt some years ago is this,
14:38
it was called House of Success, snappily titled, but it's
14:44
essentially you spend time working out your objectives and
14:46
you, you get into quite interesting conversations about
14:49
you, you start to categorise them into what's are absolute
14:52
Givens that you, you don't want to trade off what, which
14:56
objectives are, are you prepared to trade off and, and which kind
15:00
of objectives might you want to kind of optimise?
15:03
And that as as with all these sorts of things, the strength of
15:05
that is it's actually in the conversation that you have with
15:08
the with the group, not necessarily in the kind of sort
15:12
of neat output. Nathan, I wanted to ask you then
15:17
if you have any practical advice around setting up a project's
15:21
culture to be as simple as possible, to value simplicity
15:26
and and as part of that, as a project manager, as a project
15:29
leader, how do you role model it?
15:33
I'm just trying to give advice, pass on advice to those who
15:38
think simplicity is a great idea, but actually putting it
15:41
into practise is a bit of an unknown.
15:46
Yeah, absolutely. So I think when you're starting
15:50
a project or you're mobilising on a project or programme, one
15:54
of the things which getting to you can get a team to focus on
15:58
is the rule which is it whatever we're doing, if it's, if it's
16:02
not adding clarity or value, then it's it's likely making
16:05
things more complicated. And so when we're approaching
16:08
how we write our artefacts, whether it's governance
16:11
documents, our project plans, our terms of reference, whatever
16:14
it might be, I think sometimes there's a tendency to think that
16:17
we need to write more or we need to we need to create more to
16:20
justify the work. And that's sometimes not true.
16:24
Actually, less is more and you so, so getting people to think
16:28
about that and making sure that that's something they live and
16:32
breathe by when they're creating material throughout the life of
16:36
the programme. But but as early as possible
16:39
goes along later, making people feel comfortable that that less
16:42
is more. And we can simplify success by
16:45
kind of following that, that guidance.
16:48
I think that's a practical thing people can do.
16:50
I think that the other piece from a behavioural perspective
16:54
is, you know, I have no shame in asking people to explain things
16:58
like I am like, like, like I'm like, I'm a child.
17:02
Sometimes the, the more simple you can make things, the easier
17:06
it is. And there is no, there is no
17:08
silly question. Often if you're thinking it,
17:10
someone else is probably thinking that as well.
17:12
So the, the rule is there are no silly questions.
17:15
Ask if you don't understand, because if you don't, we're not
17:18
going to make progress and, and making that acceptable and
17:20
making people understand that there shouldn't be any social
17:23
fear in saying I don't understand.
17:25
It's it's a powerful thing to to breed simplicity.
17:29
Thank you. That sort of taps into this
17:31
psychological safety, which is a bit of a hot, hot topic within
17:35
project management and allowing people, giving people the
17:39
freedom to ask those questions. Because I was thinking what the
17:43
barriers are to simplicity. And one of them is the fear of
17:46
looking as though you don't know what you're talking about or
17:49
there's a lot of jargon in project management.
17:52
And there's a fear that if you keep things simple, that you'll
17:56
perhaps not as expert as you ought to be.
17:58
You don't sound as so how how you think you should sound is
18:03
that is that is that valid, Mike?
18:07
I, I think it's absolutely valid and I think is everyone's got a
18:10
part to play in that. So as if you're a, you know,
18:13
leader, senior responsible, only if you're a sponsor, you can
18:17
kind of set the tone for that sort of thing.
18:19
You know, so making sure, making sure people understand that the
18:22
idea of psychological safety, that there's no deaf questions
18:25
and, and actually in a way that's, that's encouraged and
18:28
you can be honest yourself. I mean, years, years ago, I, one
18:31
of the things I did was I was a programme director of a
18:34
renewable energy programme and I said to the the team at the
18:38
beginning, if you, if you're thinking you've, I'm an expert
18:41
on renewable energy technology, you've you'll be sadly
18:45
disappointed because I, because I'm not, I'm, you know, I've got
18:48
a running programmes, but I'm not a kind of technological
18:51
expert. So, you know, to Nathan's point
18:54
before, give me the really kind of Noddy explanation for all of
18:56
these things. So I understand, you know, how
18:59
they work. I think it's that sort of thing
19:01
is really important and that so people feel able to just ask
19:05
those questions because quite often it's the person who asks
19:08
the really kind of, you know, simple question that gets to the
19:11
heart of the matter. Thanks, Mike.
19:14
Actually, I'd like to ask both of you if you could give any
19:16
practical examples of simplicity and action through a project or
19:21
programme. Whereas it's a sore thing or
19:23
it's a bigger thing, perhaps it's part of the turn around of
19:26
a project. But Mike, is there anything that
19:29
you could share with us? So I can share a relatively
19:33
recent example. So I'm the sponsor of a large
19:36
complex project and, you know, we regularly kind of reviewing
19:41
the finances of that project and you can end up being sent these
19:45
voluminous spreadsheets with all this data in and all these
19:48
different variables. And I suppose I said to the team
19:52
I what I'd like to see is a financial summary for this
19:57
project on a single slide that covers its entire life with the
20:02
main, you know, items of expenditure and.
20:07
That's the level I wanted to tap because I just kept finding that
20:11
we were going into such levels of detail.
20:13
And I know, and people need to do that.
20:15
I get that that's part of people's jobs, but they were
20:16
going into such levels of detail that we were, you know, people
20:19
were getting lost. And yeah, we had a had a
20:23
situation where forecasts were changing quite substantially and
20:28
it felt like we hadn't seen it coming.
20:29
And I, my view of why we hadn't seen it coming was because we
20:33
were getting, we were just in far too much detail, too much
20:37
complexity. So if we just kept it simple,
20:40
that would have made a big difference.
20:41
So now on a monthly basis at the project board, we just have a, a
20:44
single slide which shows the, and this is a project that's
20:47
running for 10 plus years and costing 10s of millions of
20:53
pounds. And so, and it's just kept, it's
20:55
just made it so much simpler. So hopefully that useful
20:59
example. Yeah, that is and something that
21:01
touches on another massive topic, which is data and AI.
21:06
And there's going to, there's more data available to people
21:10
than ever before working on a project.
21:12
And also then the added complication of AI is it, is it
21:18
making it harder then to deliver simplicity or to think things
21:23
through simply, do you think? I don't think so because I think
21:28
it's, but then it's for us as project professionals to, to not
21:31
let that happen. So there's something about AI
21:34
can be hugely useful. We've used it recently to do a
21:39
kind of full drains up review of all our risks.
21:42
So obviously it can churn through a lot of data quite
21:45
quickly. But so I think he asks different
21:46
questions of the project professionals and the project
21:48
managers. So in the past you may have
21:51
spent a lot of time yourself going through all that data,
21:54
generating the kind of reports, etcetera.
21:56
But it's shifting us into a position now where our job is to
22:01
interpret and, and kind of analyse the, the kind of data.
22:05
And that's where I think having that mindset of simplicity can
22:08
really help, you know, what are the 3-4 big things that are
22:12
really going to get in the way of us delivering this thing?
22:15
Not the 300 items on the risk register.
22:18
Nathan, what are your thoughts on this and and can you give any
22:22
kind of practical examples of where you've managed to make
22:25
things simpler in a project and and that it delivered benefits
22:28
to you? Yeah, absolutely.
22:32
So we've had a recent or fairly recent programme which I I would
22:38
describe as a as a as a complex programme, but actually
22:42
operating in an even more complicated environment.
22:45
What I mean by that is lots of different stakeholders across
22:50
multiple functions compounding actually how difficult it is to
22:55
deliver. And within that, that brought a
23:01
lot of challenge with people either understanding or
23:04
misunderstanding who was accountable and empowered to
23:11
make decisions. And so something may be agreed
23:14
somewhere in a different meeting which would then be undone in a
23:17
different meeting etcetera, etcetera.
23:19
And we need to simplify that and, and one of the things or
23:22
the tools that we really focused on was focusing on what the
23:27
decision rights are at simplifying the decision rights
23:30
across the the programme so that people had clarity on specifics
23:36
on what was within their gift to make a decision on.
23:40
So actually bringing it back to life and saying you are
23:43
responsible for this decision, you are not responsible for this
23:46
decision, etcetera, etcetera. And that helped us do two
23:51
things. It helped simplify that chain
23:54
and removed some of that either confusion or differing of
23:57
opinions and it empowered people and allowed people to go faster
24:03
because we had a much simpler approach.
24:07
So that for me was that was a good example of how you need to
24:11
bring simplicity in that case to the environment that you're
24:15
operating in for that type of programme.
24:18
Thanks. So it seems that simplicity goes
24:20
in hand, hand in hand with clarity.
24:23
Then when it comes to working on projects, I'd like to ask both
24:28
of you what what your final pieces of advice or any kind of
24:34
food for thought that you'd like to pass on to get to get people
24:38
towards on the path towards greater simplicity in projects?
24:41
Mike. I suppose my one piece of advice
24:44
to people would be to to have the courage to, to kind of go
24:49
for it. So learning to say, you know, no
24:53
to scope creep, no to over engineering and kind of yes to
24:56
simplicity because especially in the early stages of projects, I
25:00
think there so much of what we've talked about you can get
25:04
on top of early in projects. And if you put the groundwork in
25:07
a bit, the example that Nathan was just giving before about the
25:11
kind of decision rights kind of matrix, I think is really
25:14
helpful. And so that takes a bit of time.
25:17
And so, so sometimes you may have stakeholders breathing down
25:19
your neck going, come on, just get on with the thing.
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Whereas actually investing in a bit of simplicity and clarity
25:26
upfront just helps you go so much faster later.
25:31
So yeah, have courage and I would say.
25:34
Thank you. And Nathan, any final pieces of
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advice you pass on? You know, I'd really reemphasize
25:41
that. Focus on the culture and the
25:43
behaviour for simplicity. As soon as possible or as early
25:45
as possible, Getting that right will flow through to everything
25:51
that you do, whether it's process, tools, and I think I
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mentioned earlier around thinking about whether what
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we're doing is, is adding clarity or value.
26:00
And if it's not, is it, is it really helping us simplify how
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we're trying to deliver? But if you get the culture
26:05
right, you know your elite complexity for breakfasts.
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So for me that that would be the thing to focus on.
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I I just want to thank both of you for this really interesting
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conversation on simplicity. Thank you.
26:19
Thanks very much for having me, great to talk.
26:30
Thanks to Nathan and Mike for joining us and to you for
26:32
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