Latest / Future Christian / Breaking Eurocentric Norms: Rethinking Religious Leadership with Kristina Lizardy-Hajbi

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Breaking Eurocentric Norms: Rethinking Religious Leadership with Kristina Lizardy-Hajbi · Future Christian

0:07
>> Loren Richmond: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
0:13
21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
podcast, we talk to pastors,
0:18
authors, and other faith leaders for helpful advice and
0:21
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
0:24
faith walk boldly into the future.
0:27
Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a
0:30
passionate member of your faith community, this podcast
0:33
is designed to challenge, inspire, and
0:35
equip you with the tools you need for impactful
0:38
ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for
0:41
this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Junior welcomes the Reverend
0:49
Kristina Lizardy Hadby. Kristina
0:52
is associate professor of leadership and
0:54
formation and faculty director of the
0:57
Office of Professional Formation at Iliff School
1:00
of Theology in Denver, Colorado.
1:03
In addition, she co directs the Doctor of
1:06
Ministry in Prophetic Leadership at
1:09
ILIF and coordinates the
1:11
certificate in Latinx studies for the
1:14
Ilif du joint PhD in
1:17
religion. Her teaching and research
1:19
interests include organizational leadership,
1:22
liberative and decolonial approaches to
1:25
ministry, intersectional pedagogical
1:28
practices, and applied research
1:31
methods. Kristina is the author of the
1:33
book unraveling Religious leadership,
1:36
as well as the reports latino
1:39
congregations trends from the Faith communities
1:42
today and exploring the pandemic
1:45
impact on congregation studies.
1:48
She is also the co editor of Explore
1:51
Vocational Discovery in ministry. She
1:54
is an ordained minister in the United Church of
1:57
Christ. One housekeeping detail before
2:00
our conversation begins, please take a moment
2:02
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more people.
2:26
>> Kristina: Okay.
2:26
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. I'm, um, pleased to
2:29
be recording in person with
2:32
Reverend doctor Kristina Lizardy
2:34
Hajbi Yes, at the Iliff School of
2:36
theology here in Denver, Colorado. Nice
2:39
day today. A little overcast. Shouldn't be super
2:42
hot. Yesterday was kind of a scorcher, and this
2:45
weekend, another scorcher.
2:47
>> Kristina: Yes, we get a little bit of a
2:49
reprieve.
2:50
>> Loren: Yeah, we do. Well, thanks so much for the time.
2:53
Looking forward to having this conversation. Share if you would,
2:56
anything else you'd like our, uh, listeners to know about.
2:58
>> Kristina: About you, I guess other than
3:01
my professional credentials, I would say
3:04
a little bit about me personally. I
3:07
am a third generation
3:10
puerto rican Italian here
3:13
in the United States. My grandparents were
3:16
born in Puerto Rico and Italy,
3:18
respectively, so I'm the second generation to be
3:21
born in the mainland part of the United States.
3:24
And, uh, contrary to
3:27
most Italians and Puerto
3:30
Ricans who grow up on the east coast or
3:32
in Florida or, um, anywhere in
3:35
the eastern time zone. I grew up in southern Colorado.
3:38
So right here in Colorado. And Colorado
3:41
is not primarily italian or puerto rican. It
3:44
is primarily mexican, um,
3:47
american or Chicano. Uh, and
3:50
so southern Colorado specifically
3:53
is. And so growing up with a variety
3:55
of cultures, um, and around
3:58
different cultures, than who I am is really, uh,
4:01
part of my own journey, which
4:04
is, uh, another part of why I'm
4:06
interested in the intersection of
4:09
religion and culture, and
4:11
particularly, uh, Latino or
4:14
Latin. A religion and congregational
4:17
life.
4:17
>> Loren: Yeah. Do you mind sharing what town, city
4:20
in southern Colorado?
4:22
>> Kristina: Uh, so, yeah, I grew up 20
4:24
miles northwest of Trinidad,
4:27
Colorado. Okay, southern, right. Right down the
4:30
I 25 corridor. It's the last city
4:32
on the way into New Mexico. So
4:35
I grew up, really in northern New
4:38
Mexico, southern Colorado,
4:41
close to the Ludlow monument.
4:44
If you ever go down I 25, uh,
4:47
there's exit 27, which is Ludlow.
4:50
And Ludlow was, um,
4:53
a mining town in the late
4:56
18 hundreds, early 19 hundreds. And,
4:59
ah, a massacre occurred there, actually,
5:02
as part of a strike between union
5:05
workers. Yeah. So it was actually a site of one of
5:08
the early,
5:10
um. Uh,
5:13
it helped start the early, um,
5:16
union movement in the United States. So it was one of
5:19
the catalysts for that.
5:21
>> Loren: Interesting. Well, thanks for sharing that. Share, if you
5:24
would, about your faith journey. Kind of what that's looked like in the past and
5:27
what that looks like today.
5:28
>> Kristina: Yeah. So, um, typical of most,
5:31
uh, Puerto Ricans and Italians, I was raised,
5:34
or my parents grew up Catholic,
5:38
and, uh, my parents were raised
5:40
Catholic.
5:43
And so,
5:45
um, I was baptized in the Catholic
5:48
church. And as a result,
5:51
um, you know, was fully on my way to
5:54
being a good catholic person. And when I was a
5:57
child, my dad attended a
6:00
Nikki Cruz revival. And
6:03
Nikki Cruz is an evangelist.
6:06
Um, he is puerto rican. He's still alive.
6:09
He was a gang member
6:12
in the Bronx. And so he did these,
6:15
um, revivals around the country. And my dad went
6:17
to one with my dad as a Puerto rican, uh,
6:20
who also grew up in the Bronx. And at that revival,
6:23
he was converted to evangelical
6:26
pentecostal protestantism.
6:29
And so I was actually raised
6:32
as an evangelical, pentecostal,
6:35
protestant, non denominational,
6:37
um, and so we attended a church growing up,
6:40
um, and all the way through college,
6:43
I had. I claimed that as my own
6:46
faith. And I participated in a campus
6:48
ministry and did leadership in an evangelical, non
6:51
denominational campus ministry. Um, and really
6:54
found a. That faith to be,
6:57
um, really meaningful for me, especially the personal
6:59
connection with God and Jesus and
7:02
the spirit, and is still a part of my own
7:05
faith today. Uh,
7:07
however, when I graduated from
7:10
college, I, uh, was
7:13
an associate pastor at a bilingual
7:16
mission congregation here in Denver in one of
7:19
the highest, um, our lowest
7:22
income, poorest neighborhoods in
7:25
Denver, and did that for about a year.
7:28
And very quickly, I realized that
7:30
I did not have any training to be a pastor, even though
7:33
I was a campus minister. And,
7:36
um, at the time, the pastor of the church
7:39
was, um, working on his PhD at Ilif and
7:42
said, why don't you try
7:44
Ilif? I think you need to go to seminary. Why don't
7:47
you try Ilif? And so
7:50
I started as a student at Ilif in
7:52
2002, which is over 20 years ago now,
7:55
and this whole new world
7:58
opened up to me that I sort of
8:01
knew, um,
8:03
I needed,
8:06
um, and I was
8:09
incredibly grateful for so sort of breaking out
8:12
of the silo of
8:14
evangelicalism into this whole new understanding
8:17
of faith and God
8:20
and multiplying simplicity, really,
8:22
of practice and belief.
8:25
Uh, and so that began my journey of ministry in a different
8:28
way. I found the United Church of Christ, which is
8:31
my denomination. I'm an ordained minister in the
8:33
UCC. I've been a member of the UCC
8:36
for over two decades. I've worked
8:39
at the national setting of the United Church of Christ, did that
8:42
for years as a director of research.
8:45
And I. I think
8:48
my faith has evolved in many different
8:50
ways as a result of my
8:53
attendance at Ilif and my shift
8:56
to mainline Protestantism,
8:58
which, um, has its
9:01
gifts and has its challenges as well.
9:04
And so I still maintain the evangelical
9:07
part of who I am and
9:10
the sense of community and relationship
9:13
that I. That I developed
9:16
and that developed me as a leader, even in
9:19
my college days. But bringing with
9:21
that this notion of
9:24
multiplicity and
9:27
how completely, uh,
9:30
religion is shaped by the cultures that we're
9:33
in as well. So that
9:36
began my love of sociology, of
9:38
religion and studying trends over time.
9:42
I'm also, uh, married to someone who
9:45
is not Christian. I'm married to a Muslim. And
9:48
so that is another part of my journey that
9:51
sort of transformed, um, who I am
9:54
and living within these multiplicities of
9:56
belief and belonging that include
9:59
Christianity, but are expanded much more
10:02
beyond that. So I think Christianity in the future,
10:05
or the Christianity or christianities
10:08
of the future, my hope would be that they are
10:11
more inclusive all.
10:13
>> Loren: Ah, right, you're answering the end questions already. I appreciate
10:16
it. Well, thanks for sharing
10:18
that. Are there any spiritual practices you're willing to share that
10:21
are meaningful for you, you'd like to share?
10:25
>> Kristina: Yeah. I was thinking about
10:28
this question, and it
10:31
reminded me of a, uh,
10:33
quote by Reverend
10:35
Angel Kyoto Williams, who's,
10:38
uh, black, uh, woman
10:41
buddhist teacher and practitioner. And
10:43
she says that all life is practice.
10:47
And I share that with my students. Quite
10:50
often I oversee contextual education or
10:53
field education here at IlIF.
10:55
And I say all of it is
10:58
practice, not just the internship
11:01
or the clinical pastoral education that you're
11:04
doing. It's also how you show up in your
11:06
classroom. It's also how you show up with
11:09
your family. All life is practiced. And so,
11:12
beyond the individual practices of
11:15
meditation, for me, being in
11:18
nature, I grew up in southern Colorado. It's very much a part
11:21
of how I connect with God and the
11:23
holy. I would say
11:26
living life and being in community is
11:29
a spiritual practice. And seeing that as an
11:31
opportunity for engagement with
11:34
God and the spirit is,
11:36
uh, is part of
11:39
how I do life. And
11:42
for me, that includes teaching as a
11:45
spiritual practice. I just finished a two week
11:47
immersion course to rural
11:51
parts of Colorado and to suburban parts of
11:53
Colorado. And for me, that was such a
11:56
spiritual practice to engage
11:59
in living with and building
12:01
community with ten other people,
12:05
and, uh, really enlivens my faith
12:08
and feeds and nurtures my own faith.
12:10
>> Loren: Yeah, I appreciate that idea of,
12:13
uh, life as a practice, because then it's like, hey, I'm
12:16
practicing. I'm still trying to get better, right?
12:18
>> Kristina: Yep. It's never perfected, and
12:21
I don't appreciate the word failure all the
12:23
time. And so what I say to students
12:26
who might have said, I'm failing, I say, well,
12:29
no, it's just practice. It's all practice. It's
12:32
not success or failure. I mean, there's different waves of that.
12:35
>> Loren: Well, especially, especially in CPE, in clinical
12:38
pastoral education, uh, which I've
12:40
done. That idea of
12:43
failure, uh, that's not an idea you want to have,
12:46
at least as I learned it. This idea, like,
12:50
you're learning you're going to do better the next time.
12:53
It's a good model for ministry in life.
12:55
>> Kristina: In journal two, yes, I say that
12:58
people should develop practical
13:01
wisdom. Um, and there is a
13:03
deepening that one gets as one practices
13:06
more, and it develops into an embodied kind
13:09
of wisdom. Doing,
13:12
uh, or performing a funeral for the first
13:15
time or a wedding for the first time versus doing it for
13:18
the 500th time
13:21
after 30 years is quite different. And one has
13:23
developed a wisdom after doing
13:26
that for so many years. So that's the distinction I like
13:29
to make, rather than successful or failure.
13:31
>> Loren: Yeah, no, that's helpful. That's helpful.
13:34
Well, we're here to talk with Kristina today about
13:37
a couple different things. Her report that
13:40
she led the latino congregation's
13:43
trends from the faith communities today, and
13:45
exploring the pandemic impact on
13:48
congregation study. So the fact, epic, I
13:51
guess, is the short way of saying a study. And then we'll also talk
13:54
touch on some themes from her book, unraveling
13:57
religious leadership, which came out in April
14:00
of this year, 2024. So
14:03
let's make sure, I'll try to make sure we get a
14:05
link to both of these in the show
14:08
notes for our listeners. But, uh,
14:11
looking forward to having this conversation. So, let's start with
14:15
the study. Can you kind of just introduce the study,
14:18
the scope, the scale, the goals, that sort of thing?
14:20
>> Kristina: Yeah. The report
14:23
comes out of the two research projects that you
14:26
mentioned, the faith communities today, or
14:29
fact study, and the exploring the
14:32
pandemic impact on congregations, or the epic
14:35
study. And both research projects
14:37
are housed through the Hartford Institute for
14:40
Religion Research. Scott Thoma, who
14:43
directs that center. That institute was one of your
14:46
guests, ah, a while ago. And
14:49
so, um, both of these
14:52
studies, um, the first study is the faith
14:55
communities today study, which has been a, ah,
14:58
survey of congregations across the
15:01
US since the year 2000.
15:05
The results for this particular report
15:07
come from the 2020
15:10
survey of, uh, congregations, of which there were
15:13
over 15,000 congregations
15:16
surveyed. The Epic study
15:19
is a more focused study on the impact
15:22
of COVID on congregations. So, not as
15:25
large scale, although, um, they are doing
15:28
some large scale surveys, but sort of looking
15:30
at how church or how
15:32
congregational life has shifted
15:35
as a result of COVID And
15:38
so, combining these two studies, we found
15:41
that there were a fairly
15:43
substantive number of Latin a or
15:46
latino congregations that, um, had
15:49
participated in this survey. And that was really intentional.
15:52
Uh, I know that they tried to get more
15:55
representation from non eurocentric or
15:58
european congregations. And so,
16:00
combining these two studies and
16:03
analyzing the results, we were
16:06
able to get a picture of a small picture
16:08
of Latin a congregational
16:11
life in the United States. Now,
16:14
that is about
16:15
276 congregations
16:18
total, that have
16:21
50% or more of their
16:23
participants identifying as
16:26
Latino or Latin A. So it does
16:29
not include all Latinos in
16:32
congregational life, because we know Latinos are in
16:35
congregations that aren't totally Latino
16:37
identified. Right. They're in, um, anglo
16:40
congregations, they're in african american congregations. And so
16:43
this is just a snippet of particular
16:46
congregations that, um, are
16:48
majority latino
16:51
participants.
16:52
>> Loren: Yeah, great. I. So you've been kind of
16:55
using the word Latino Latina interchangeably.
16:58
I understand. When I was looking at
17:01
the study here, there is some discussion about
17:03
terminology. So can you just share a
17:06
little bit about the
17:09
terminology nuance there, um.
17:11
>> Kristina: Latinos, we like to call ourselves by
17:14
many different names, and I don't think there is a
17:17
consensus on that. So,
17:20
um, sometimes will refer to ourselves
17:23
as Hispanic. Sometimes it will be
17:26
Latino or Latinx, which is
17:29
the more gender inclusive term.
17:31
Latine or Latine with an e
17:34
at the end is the newest more gender
17:37
inclusive term.
17:40
Um, and so that is the one
17:42
that I'm shifting myself to
17:45
use from Latinx or Latino, although in
17:48
speaking, I'll just probably use Latino or
17:51
Latinx. But I do try to use Latin.
17:54
A, um, of course, there is
17:56
a, um, broad
17:59
diversity of people
18:02
from different countries with different
18:04
ethnicities and different identifications within
18:07
that large umbrella of
18:10
who we identify as hispanic or
18:13
latino people. So you can be salvadoran, puerto
18:16
rican, cuban,
18:18
um, and then, of course, where I grew
18:21
up in southern Colorado, people don't say, we
18:24
cross the border, the border, cross us. And so in that
18:27
part of the country was already
18:30
heavily influenced by Spain
18:33
and colonization, and Mexicanos
18:35
and, uh, Chicanos, of course, who have been
18:38
in this country for generations. So there's
18:41
lots of different ways that we identify ourselves, and it's a
18:44
broad umbrella. We're talking about an entire
18:47
hemisphere of the world of people.
18:51
Um, and so it's really hard
18:53
to categorize all of us into
18:57
one, um, grouping
18:59
of people, but that's sort of how it's
19:02
gone in our country as a result of
19:04
colonization and us becoming
19:07
part of this quote unquote melting pot, although I don't
19:10
really think we melt
19:13
into a single sort of soup of
19:16
people. Um, and of course, there are recent
19:19
immigrants to the United States, and there are people who
19:21
have been here for generations, as I said, even in
19:24
southern Colorado, northern New Mexico. And we
19:27
speak many different languages. Some of us speak Spanish,
19:30
some of us speak English. Some of us speak
19:33
both, or a hybrid of both. Some of us
19:36
speak Portuguese, um, and,
19:39
uh, there are others of us who speak other languages.
19:42
If you're, um, asian
19:44
and Latino, right.
19:47
You might speak other languages. Uh, so.
19:50
And there's also caribbean languages as well. So.
19:53
>> Loren: Yeah, awesome. It's kind of funny.
19:56
Uh, I wrote a typo here. Share some of
19:59
thy key findings. So share some of your, I
20:02
guess, key findings from the
20:05
study.
20:06
>> Kristina: There are a lot of key
20:09
findings, and I encourage folks who want
20:12
some of the details to really go to the
20:14
report itself and read it because it is really
20:17
interesting and fascinating. It is one of the
20:21
first, uh, reports of its
20:23
kind to look at latino congregations
20:27
on this larger scale. And so I encourage folks to
20:30
do that. But with um,
20:32
the congregations in the survey,
20:35
um, we found that the
20:38
majority of Latinos
20:41
are attending larger congregations.
20:44
So, uh, with 250 or more
20:47
people. So, um,
20:50
there's a concentration there. And that is also a
20:53
concentration that's found across all of congregational
20:56
life, not just, uh, latino
20:59
congregations.
21:00
>> Loren: That was from the facts survey, really. Right.
21:03
>> Kristina: Yeah. So there's some similarities there
21:05
with patterns, and there's also some
21:08
differences. So
21:11
latino congregations, like
21:13
latino demographics as a whole in the United
21:16
States, trend younger. So
21:19
there, uh, are greater percentages
21:22
of, uh, participants
21:25
in these congregations who are,
21:29
um, youth, young adults, and
21:32
folks who are, in the early and
21:35
mid part of their lives, fewer
21:37
older adults. And that is different than
21:40
most congregations.
21:42
>> Loren: Especially in our mainline context.
21:44
>> Kristina: Right. Especially in the mainline context.
21:47
Um, another interesting finding is
21:50
that the majority of,
21:53
uh, latino congregations do not
21:56
own their own buildings. They rent their
21:58
buildings or they meet in
22:01
a storefront. And that's not, uh,
22:04
Orlando, um, when you're thinking of catholic
22:07
congregations, catholic
22:09
congregants don't own their
22:12
buildings. They're owned by the diocese in
22:15
many ways. And so just, uh, looking at the
22:17
diversity of that is really important.
22:20
But when you're looking at Latinos as
22:23
a whole, it is a demographic
22:26
that does not have as much generational
22:29
wealth as, say, mainline
22:31
congregations who have been here for 150
22:34
years or more. And so because
22:37
of the recent wave of immigration, but also just
22:40
because of systemic inequities
22:43
and racism, as a history of our
22:46
country, there's not the capital,
22:49
uh, present for
22:51
latino congregations to raise their own
22:54
funds. Another, I would say,
22:57
competing reason for that is
23:00
because a, uh, significant
23:03
majority of Latin a
23:05
congregations are
23:07
evangelical protestant. Many of them
23:10
don't belong to a mainline tradition,
23:14
um, or a catholic diocese. And
23:17
so, um, they don't have
23:19
access to resources that could then also
23:22
help them purchase property or have a building. So
23:25
there's some competing factors about why that's the case.
23:28
>> Loren: Yeah. Let's dive into some of these
23:31
key challenges you mentioned, and the
23:34
one that certainly comes to mind is the building
23:38
challenge. I mean, I'm, uh,
23:41
thinking about this from my own experience, starting in church
23:44
and how hard it is to not have a building and
23:46
just the limitations there. Like, I've joked
23:49
with people, like, I think in Colorado, like, people don't take you
23:52
seriously as a church until you have a building
23:56
summer to meet. But
23:58
what are. So, you mentioned
24:01
the renting. What are the limitations?
24:04
Or how have congregations been
24:07
able to. Have they been able to overcome?
24:09
And what's the kind of
24:12
makeup, I guess evangelical versus
24:15
mainline, which, again, in the report
24:18
you talk about how many tend to be mainline and how many are
24:21
the evangelical like? Does one grouping
24:24
or the other tend to have, uh, the leg up on
24:26
buildings?
24:27
>> Kristina: On buildings, yeah, that's an interesting
24:30
question, and I have to look at
24:33
participation trends related
24:36
to that as well. So
24:39
even though the vast majority of congregations for Latinos
24:42
are evangelical Protestant, uh,
24:45
what's interesting about that is they often tend to
24:48
be smaller congregations. And so even though
24:51
there are fewer Catholic Catholic
24:53
parishes,
24:56
they're large in number, very
24:58
large in number in terms of membership. And
25:01
so for many of these congregations that are
25:04
trying to rent a building
25:07
or purchase a building or purchase space
25:10
for them to worship in,
25:12
um, they're doing it and they're small in number.
25:15
I mean, of course there's megachurches, there's larger churches that are
25:18
doing these kinds of things. Um, and often
25:21
megachurches have latino ministries that
25:24
are significant, and so they have buildings
25:27
and things like that. But for the majority
25:30
of these congregations, I would say that,
25:33
um, there's a smaller membership
25:36
pool from which to
25:39
get funds from. Uh,
25:42
and related to this, another interesting finding from
25:45
the study is that,
25:47
um, these
25:49
congregations are more likely,
25:51
significantly more likely than other
25:53
congregations to rely on
25:56
fundraising as a way to gain
25:58
money. That's helpful in some ways,
26:01
because if something
26:04
is an immediate need, such as a pastor's salary,
26:07
or someone in the congregation
26:10
needs something or they want to do some kind of
26:13
mission or ministry work in the community,
26:16
um, they're able to do fundraising really
26:19
well and really quickly pull resources
26:21
together. But for long term
26:24
asset development,
26:26
that's really not a sustainable long term
26:29
strategy. But there is something that I think
26:32
other congregations can learn from,
26:35
um, the ability of these
26:38
congregations to gain funding quickly when it is
26:41
needed. And fundraising is one
26:43
of those ways. So that is another, I think,
26:46
interesting differentiated finding from this
26:49
study.
26:50
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. So we've hinted at
26:53
this, the denominational or network
26:55
connections. And do you, off the top of your head, do
26:58
you remember rough numbers on the breakup between evangelical
27:01
and mainline? And then b, are these
27:04
evangelical groupings, are they with
27:07
SBC or act 29 or Arc?
27:10
Those other connections there?
27:12
>> Kristina: Yeah, uh, I don't know,
27:15
because that, uh, data is hidden from
27:18
me. So the way the,
27:21
uh, faith communities today survey works is that,
27:24
um, you can have access to the data,
27:27
but each denomination and tradition
27:30
surveys their own groups, and so
27:32
they contribute to the big pot,
27:35
which is the large scale survey. And so
27:38
I would actually need permission from all these different
27:41
denominations in order to figure out the
27:44
smaller breakdown of that. Um,
27:47
but I can say having been a part of the faith communities
27:50
today group, um, that includes southern Baptists, it
27:53
includes, uh, Mormons. It
27:55
includes, uh, all of the mainline traditions.
27:58
It includes uu congregations, catholic
28:00
congregations, and also beyond
28:03
Christianity, reform, uh,
28:06
Judaism, jewish congregations, muslim
28:10
communities, uh, baha'I communities.
28:13
And so there's a broad diversity when we say
28:16
congregation, although the vast majority
28:19
are christian congregation.
28:21
>> Loren: Okay, so, yeah, that's helpful, because, again, this is a faith
28:24
communities today serving not just a christian community
28:26
survey. That's a helpful reminder.
28:28
Um, you've kind of hinted
28:31
at, you've kind of touched on some of the ways these congregations
28:34
are different, differ from white
28:37
congregations
28:41
trending younger, not owning a building, the lack
28:44
of generational wealth, relying on fundraising. Are there any
28:46
other, uh, obvious things that come to mind there?
28:50
>> Kristina: Yeah, one of the
28:53
other important pieces is
28:55
that, well, uh, I'll say two more important
28:58
pieces. The first is that latino faith communities
29:01
are more actively engaged in
29:04
activities beyond their congregation.
29:06
>> Loren: Is that like community involvement?
29:08
>> Kristina: Yes. So, um, ecumenical
29:11
interfaith activities or community based
29:13
activities, then other congregations. So they're
29:16
doing this, um, at greater rates than other congregations.
29:19
The other interesting thing that we found with this
29:22
survey was that these
29:25
communities rely more heavily
29:28
than others on informal means
29:31
of technology based communication. So
29:34
social media, texting
29:36
apps, rather than more
29:39
formal means that we might see in a mainline
29:42
congregation, like email, e
29:44
newsletters, websites. So
29:47
the way that
29:49
these congregations communicate at, ah,
29:52
greater rates is, I think,
29:55
indicative of sort of some of the
29:57
underlying differences which have to
30:00
do with culture. And culture includes different
30:03
ways of communicating, more familial, more
30:06
relational ways of
30:08
being for many Latinos and many
30:11
latino congregations, not to generalize
30:14
too broadly, but to say there is some
30:17
difference there in how communication
30:19
happens and how relationship and
30:22
relationality happens.
30:23
>> Loren: There's a question that comes to mind. You may not be an answer, because I'm putting you
30:26
on the spot here, but I'm curious, do you have any insights
30:29
on the governance structure, whether formally
30:32
or informally, of these
30:34
congregations?
30:37
>> Kristina: So we did look at
30:39
leadership structures right in the
30:42
faith communities today survey and the Epic survey,
30:45
and they are very similar
30:48
to other congregations. So there are solo
30:50
pastorates or solo priests
30:53
in a congregation? There
30:56
are some, uh, co
30:59
pastorates. So the rate of co
31:01
pastorship is higher
31:04
in latino congregations than in other
31:06
congregations, which was an interesting finding. But
31:09
I think because
31:13
culture, uh, is this kind of tricky thing, and
31:16
many congregations want
31:18
legitimacy or
31:21
more standing within the broader community. These
31:24
are patterned after the
31:27
way congregations have been led and
31:29
governed for the last couple
31:32
of centuries at this point. Um, and I
31:35
would say the influence of euro american
31:38
dominant culture is certainly a part
31:41
of that. So I don't know if there are
31:44
huge differences in the way governance
31:47
happens, uh,
31:49
structurally, but culture
31:52
is always very nuanced, and there might
31:55
be, and I suspect there are
31:58
ways that things get done and
32:01
things happen that move beyond a, uh, structure as well
32:04
that might be more relational and more familial. So
32:06
both things can be happening at the same time.
32:09
>> Loren: Let's lean into this. Well, let me ask this, because I think it
32:12
leans into your book, unraveling religious
32:15
leadership. But what comes to mind for me, and I think
32:18
either this was in Ted Smith's book, or my conversation with
32:20
him about the
32:23
cultural norms of
32:25
institutionalization, I think he
32:28
gives the example, or at least probably
32:32
we remember this from CPE.
32:34
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Buddhists don't go
32:37
to seminary, but they have to have some
32:40
kind of formal training
32:43
to enter into the CPE model,
32:46
which was, correct me if I'm wrong, based on, like,
32:49
christian, right.
32:51
>> Kristina: Yep. So, yeah, board in order. The CPE
32:53
model is very christocentric and
32:56
eurocentric, and I think they're making some changes
32:59
to that, uh, and making some adjustments to
33:02
that, uh, in some ways. But
33:05
board certification, to be a board certified
33:08
chaplain, you need to
33:11
have a master's education. And the m
33:14
m div is still. The master of divinity is still the
33:17
gold standard. So we have buddhist
33:19
students, we have students with no tradition. We have
33:22
students, um, who are
33:25
Muslim, uh, and there's
33:28
muslim chaplaincy programs that are
33:31
sprouting up around the country. And,
33:34
um, here at Ilif, we've had
33:37
a, uh, history of having, um, lds
33:40
or mormon students here, because Mormons
33:43
don't ordain folks either. It's a lay
33:45
ministry. And so if someone wants to be a
33:48
chaplain, you need to go to secondary and
33:51
be board certified. So we have a lot of mormon
33:53
students that have come through here for the express
33:56
purpose of, um, going into chaplaincy
33:59
kinds of roles. And so that
34:02
I think in terms of how we credential
34:05
for leadership is based on a christian model, it's based on a
34:08
eurocentric model and what we consider
34:11
expertise as the standard model. In my
34:14
book, I talk about, uh,
34:16
expertise and the eurocentric norms around
34:19
what we consider expertise. And,
34:22
uh, that the master of divinity is still
34:25
the standard for ordination and
34:27
certification, regardless, uh,
34:30
of one's tradition. And
34:33
even as someone who teaches in a
34:36
theological school who is very committed to
34:39
theological education, it's something that I believe in
34:41
deeply. I also critique
34:44
it greatly by saying, um,
34:47
the eurocentric model of
34:51
theological education does not
34:53
prepare one and does
34:56
not encompass the totality of
34:58
one's expertise for
35:01
preparation. Um, learning christian history,
35:03
learning the Bible, learning, these kinds of,
35:07
uh, rational or intellectual knowledges can be
35:10
very helpful in preparing people for
35:13
ministry, but they're certainly not the totality. The
35:16
totality happens in, um,
35:18
practical wisdom, the learned
35:21
wisdom over time. And I don't
35:24
necessarily think, uh, theological schools do
35:26
a great job of preparing students
35:29
for these broader ministry roles.
35:32
And for latino congregational leaders,
35:35
many, uh, of them do not have a seminary education. They're
35:38
going to Bible institutions, or there's no preparation at all.
35:41
And many of them, our survey found,
35:44
uh, at greater rates than other
35:47
congregational leaders are,
35:49
uh, having full time jobs outside of
35:52
their congregational leadership roles. So
35:55
they actually are sort of doing this tent making
35:58
kind of work where it's,
36:00
um. Yeah, where they're, where they're
36:03
having full time jobs and
36:06
putting together ministries in as
36:09
completely different parts of their lives.
36:11
>> Loren: Yeah. So definitely some challenges
36:14
there that, like you say, these,
36:17
uh. Like, I thought of the biocationality, I thought of
36:20
like, the access to generational
36:23
wealth, you know, the lack of
36:25
resources can definitely be hindrance. Like, I experienced
36:28
it myself trying to go to seminary. So I can only imagine
36:31
for others. Um, I want to keep going
36:34
on this topic, but for sake of time, I want to ask
36:37
some kind of future oriented questions.
36:41
What are some thoughts you have on how these leaders
36:44
and congregations might plan for the future?
36:47
>> Kristina: That's a good question. One of the
36:50
recommendations, uh, or conclusions of the report,
36:54
is particularly
36:57
for those congregations that are part of denominations
37:00
or larger traditions like diocese, um, and
37:03
the catholic tradition, to find ways
37:06
to funnel
37:08
resources to latino
37:11
and other congregations of color,
37:14
or global majority congregations, as I would call
37:17
them.
37:17
>> Loren: So the denomination needs to funnel
37:20
it down?
37:21
>> Kristina: I think in some ways, yes. And especially
37:23
because there are many,
37:26
uh, historically euro american
37:29
congregations that are in decline and that are
37:31
expected to close over the next several decades.
37:34
Decades. So what is happening with those resources?
37:37
>> Loren: Well, especially the buildings. Right. And this
37:40
is a question I want to ask. So,
37:43
because it seems like what happens is an, uh,
37:46
anglo congregation declines, decides
37:48
to close building its soul, and it kind of just goes to
37:51
supporting the denominational infrastructure. Right.
37:55
Like, what do you think? Like, should. I mean, I
37:57
guess you could sell the building and,
38:01
and direct those funds. Like,
38:03
should
38:06
denominations be more explicit about giving the buildings to,
38:09
um, non white
38:11
congregations? What do you think?
38:14
>> Kristina: I think this is one of the great
38:17
theological challenges for denominations
38:20
today. So
38:22
how are you going to allocate
38:25
resources into the future as your
38:28
population declines? And this mirrors
38:31
demographics trends. So,
38:33
um, the decline in
38:36
white us births
38:39
mirrors the decline in
38:41
mainline denominational baptisms.
38:45
It mirrors that decline. And so
38:49
what is the theological imperative?
38:51
Does a denomination hold on to its wealth
38:54
as much as it can and
38:57
continue to
39:00
claim its own theological
39:02
legacy into the future,
39:06
um, with that decline happening? Or
39:09
does it invest and give
39:12
to future generations of
39:14
Christians the resources it
39:17
needs to thrive in ministry, even
39:20
if they are theologically not
39:23
aligned, uh, with that particular dynamic
39:25
denomination? And I think that is one of the great
39:28
challenges, because
39:31
how deeply and how far do we live
39:34
into our
39:35
ecumenicalism? Um, and for
39:38
many congregations, there are Latinos who are in
39:41
white congregations, there are many latin
39:44
folks who are in many different kinds of
39:47
congregations. But for newer immigrant
39:49
congregations or congregations
39:52
that do not have that kind of wealth,
39:55
um, what are the limits of
39:58
one's generosity, and what are
40:01
the limits that are
40:03
taking place because of one's own theology? And how
40:06
broad is one willing to go in order to
40:09
really build relationships and nurture faith
40:12
for the future? I think that is.
40:14
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good.
40:15
>> Kristina: That's an important question for denomination.
40:18
>> Loren: Uh, I'm just thinking within my own
40:20
denomination, I feel like that's a challenge. Within disciples of Christ,
40:23
it's like, as
40:26
they bring on ethnic
40:29
congregations, it's like, why are they disciples enough? I feel
40:32
like I've heard that m question, uh,
40:35
want to keep going, but I know we're running out of time.
40:37
>> Kristina: And just to add to that, there are
40:40
cultural eurocentric values that are
40:43
also embedded in that question.
40:46
And so I think sussing out, like,
40:48
what really is our theology and
40:51
what are the limits of our ways of
40:54
being as a denomination of faith, not
40:57
just religiously, but also culturally. And
41:00
how are we mixing those two in
41:03
problematic ways is also a big question.
41:05
>> Loren: Folks need to read the book, right. Unraveling religious
41:08
leadership. Uh, last question here before we take a
41:11
break. What do you think? This is a question I've asked,
41:14
uh, others before. What do you think predominantly white
41:17
congregations could learn from these? Uh, for sure. What
41:20
comes to mind? You mentioned fundraising. I think
41:23
I've heard this before.
41:24
Bivocationality, the african american church
41:27
tradition has been many other pastors bivocational
41:30
for years. Anything else come to mind?
41:35
>> Kristina: Without essentializing, I will say
41:38
that euro american culture is
41:41
highly individualistic. Right. Uh, and that is
41:44
a product of the. And we're all implicated in
41:47
that rampant individualism that I think has
41:50
increased, uh, particularly in the last several
41:52
decades, in our country. And
41:55
I believe there's a great deal that we can learn
41:58
from non
42:00
euro american
42:03
congregations and peoples around
42:06
other ways of being that lean more into
42:09
community, uh, and
42:12
communalism. And I have to credit my
42:15
colleague, Doctor Bo Yong Lee here at Ilif,
42:18
who wrote, ah, a book called, I believe,
42:20
transforming faith or transforming
42:23
congregations. Um, and she's a religious
42:26
educator by training, and she talks about
42:29
individualism versus
42:31
collectivism versus communalism.
42:34
And as a korean woman, she comes from a
42:37
communal culture. And so instead of
42:39
saying, this is my husband,
42:43
in the korean language, it is polite and
42:46
more correct to say, this is our husband, or, this is
42:49
my spouse. This is our spouse. And there are some
42:52
challenges to communalism as well. Right.
42:55
The conformity can be very constricting for
42:57
people, but how do we find a balance
43:00
between this communalism and this individualism
43:03
that moves beyond this kind of
43:05
collectivism? And I think churches practice
43:08
collectivism by and large here in the United States.
43:11
So we are a group of people that has a Bible
43:13
study together, and we do this study together. But if it's not
43:16
serving my needs, I'm out. And that
43:19
collectivism is very different in
43:22
non european congregations. To say, no,
43:25
we're actually committed to one another, as
43:27
families, as people. If you need something, I'm going to give
43:30
you something. And there's not often that kind
43:33
of communal
43:35
understanding in eurocentric
43:38
congregations or euro dominant congregations.
43:41
Um, it is in smaller congregations. So you'll find that
43:44
in rural settings. Right. Because there's a different kind
43:47
of ethic. And I often say, if
43:50
congregations would be more like white
43:53
rural congregations, we might actually get
43:55
closer to what being a Christian and what
43:58
faith looks like, um, and not seeing
44:01
these sort of larger,
44:03
more, um, acculturated, more
44:06
successful by vitality markers,
44:09
um, or by consumer capitalistic
44:12
markers, as our success,
44:15
then I think we'll be closer to what the kingdom
44:18
of God is intending for us.
44:20
>> Loren: Yeah, well, the book is unraveling religious
44:22
leadership, and then the Latino Congregations
44:25
survey study will make sure to have links to
44:28
both in the show notes. Um,
44:31
that's a great example of the you, our husband
44:34
versus my husband, just as the language.
44:37
So, uh, let's take a quick break and then run through
44:40
these closing questions, because I know you're short on time.
44:46
All right, we're back with Reverend doctor Kristina
44:48
Lizardy hasbe. Thank you
44:51
so much for your time. Really appreciate this conversation. Let's,
44:54
uh, take these closing questions. I know you gotta run,
44:56
so answer these how you'd like to. If you're pope for a day.
45:01
What do you want to do with that day? What does that look like for you?
45:05
>> Kristina: I believe that there's not
45:08
much I could change in a day because I'm not God. I'm just a
45:11
pope. Uh, but I would probably,
45:14
uh. Because of my own sort of Catholic roots
45:17
from my parents, I'd probably decree that women be
45:20
ordained and that LGBTQ
45:23
folks be granted the rights and privileges,
45:26
all rights and privileges of the church, including marriage and
45:29
ordination.
45:30
>> Loren: Great.
45:31
>> Kristina: Great thinking in a catholic frame.
45:33
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, theologian or
45:36
historical christian figure, did you want to meet or bring back to
45:38
life?
45:40
>> Kristina: This was a tough question.
45:42
Uh, I've been thinking a lot
45:44
about my own teacher here at ilif, Doctor
45:47
Vincent Harding.
45:49
And I have been
45:52
wondering what he would say about our
45:55
current situation nationally,
45:57
internationally, and so
46:00
I would really welcome a conversation with
46:03
him to hear his thoughts
46:05
on life and the world and
46:08
our call as christians moving into the future.
46:11
And, um, he passed in
46:13
2014, but I often think about him
46:16
and try to model and think to myself,
46:19
what would he think? But I really want to know what he would say. So that would be
46:22
the one person.
46:23
>> Loren: Yeah, I like that. What do you think history will remember from
46:26
our current time and place?
46:29
>> Kristina: That this was the tipping point
46:33
when we could have done things differently
46:37
and we didn't. My hope
46:40
is that we
46:42
will on a number of fronts, on
46:45
how we are functioning as christians, as
46:48
denominations in this world,
46:50
on climate change, on global
46:53
war and violence that is taking place around
46:56
the world. But I feel like we're at the tipping
46:59
point right now, and so pessimistically,
47:02
I don't see a lot of change in any
47:05
of these ways. But I think my eternal hope,
47:08
which is your next question, is that
47:11
we embrace and live into a different
47:14
understanding and way of
47:16
being people in this world and relating to
47:19
one another and how we treat this world
47:23
and how we live out faith,
47:26
whatever that looks like for each one of us.
47:28
>> Loren: Great. Well, you shared some hopes. Anything else you want to say?
47:33
>> Kristina: I would say also that
47:36
we live into a deeper understanding, understanding
47:39
of Christianity as
47:41
multiplicitous, not homogeneous,
47:44
not one thing, this or that, and that our
47:47
cultures bring those christianities to life,
47:50
not inhibit them.
47:53
>> Loren: Well, I wish we had more time for the conversation, but I really
47:55
appreciate your thoughts and perspectives. Thank you so much for
47:58
joining me for this conversation. I always leave folks with a word
48:01
of peace, so we get to do it in person. May God's peace
48:04
be with you. You.
48:05
>> Kristina: Thank you. And you, as well.
48:14
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast,
48:17
the Future Christian podcast is produced by Resonate
48:20
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48:22
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48:25
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48:28
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48:42
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