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Step into Your Creative Authority (with Ginger Moran) · The Daily Writer

0:08
SPEAKER_00: Welcome creative geniuses.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: This is episode 94 of the Born to Create podcast.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Kent Standards, and this is the show where we explore the mindset, habits, and skills that can help you make a bigger impact in your life and creative work.
0:23
SPEAKER_00: You can find previous episodes, my free ultimate toolkit for creative entrepreneurs, and much more at Kentstandards.net.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: Have you ever noticed that a high percentage of artists and creative types are just kind of passive and too nice?
0:38
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's because we don't want to appear overly aggressive.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's because we feel paralyzed by too many options in life and we just sort of shrink back from all that life has to offer us.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe it's because we just don't want to offend anybody.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, whatever the reason, the fact remains that many creative types simply don't take charge of their destiny.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: And I'm thrilled today that my guest, Ginger Moran, is here to help us to step into our creative authority and become more assertive with our calling.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: This is a really fun conversation that you definitely don't want to miss.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: I know I loved it and I'm really excited to be able to share it with you.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: We'll get to the interview here in just a couple minutes, but first, let's dive into our Ask Kent segment.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: This is the part of the show where I answer your questions about creativity, mindset, habits, writing, and pretty much whatever else you want to throw at me.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: And I have always said, if I can't give you an intelligent answer, I'll find somebody who can.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: So I always appreciate your questions.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: Now this is a special edition of Ask Kent.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: And the reason why is it's because the question was sent in by my friend Elijah Keane.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: Elijah is a former college student of mine, a wonderful worship leader, musician, and just an all-around great guy.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: So I was thrilled to be able to answer this question.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like we're back in college class, you know, way back in the day.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: So Elijah sent in a uh super interesting question.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: I want to read it to you and then I'll give you my response.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: Elijah writes When someone creates something different in an attempt to be unique, is it really unique if uniqueness itself was the goal?
2:08
SPEAKER_00: Or is true uniqueness only created when acquired naturally without it being the end goal rather than the byproduct of a truly original thought?
2:17
SPEAKER_00: So that's a really insightful question.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: So Elijah, I appreciate you taking time to send it in to me.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: I'd honestly never thought about uniqueness in that way before.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: My first response is that uniqueness is in the eye of the beholder.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: What's unique and creative to one person is not necessarily unique and creative to the next person.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: Let's take the example of hip-hop music.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm not sure why I picked the example of hip-hop music out of the millions of examples of art and and creative work out there in the universe, but I just picked hip-hop, so let's go with it.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: To the untrained ear, most hip-hop or rap music, and I know that rap and hip-hop are not exactly the same thing, but let's just for the sake of argument and simplicity, let's just go with that for now.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: To the untrained ear, most hip-hop music sounds pretty much the same.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: The majority of hip-hop music falls into the 80 to 110 beats per minute range and a lot of times you hear trap drums or that Roland TR-808 sound that's all over music today.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not going to take the time here to explain to everybody what the Roland TR808 sound is.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh just Google it.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: It's super interesting how that old technology from the 80s has actually influenced music today.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, those sounds are what you hear in hip-hop music a lot of times as far as drums, percussion loops, and that kind of stuff.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: So a lot of people who listen to hip-hop music would probably say, if they don't listen to a lot of it, they would say it all just kind of sounds the same to me.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: You know, it all has the same beat, it has similar drum sounds, and whatnot.
3:47
SPEAKER_00: However, the creativity of hip-hop music really lies within what I would call the predefined box and the rules of the genre.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: So in other words, there's this box that you can play in.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: There are certain conventions that make hip-hop music what it is, just like there are certain conventions that make country music what it is, or rock and roll music, or opera, or jazz, or whatever it is that you're talking about.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: There are certain conventions that are a part of that genre of art or music.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, it's not a part of that genre.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: You know, you typically don't have spaceships in movies uh that are Westerns.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: Unless you have a movie like Cowboys and Aliens, which was kind of a mashup of genres.
4:27
SPEAKER_00: But by and large, the creativity with within a genre of uh story, a movie, or music lies within that box, and within that box there are infinite possibilities.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: So really the point of all this is that one person thinks all hip-hop music is the same, and another person sees the infinite creativity that a lot of artists have today within that box or within that genre of hip-hop.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: So that's one thought that I have is that creativity and uniqueness many times is in the eye of the beholder.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: The second thought I have about this topic is that there are a lot of different roads to creativity.
5:02
SPEAKER_00: Whether somebody is trying to be unique just for the sake of being different, or if they're trying to really be creative because they're passionate about what they're doing, it really all ends up the same place.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not even sure that as we create as artists that that we can really distinguish whether we're trying to purposefully be different and unique, or whether that's just an end result of the creative work that we're doing.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: I think the process is so mysterious sometimes and so unpredictable.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: You know, the whole creative process and following our curiosity and just seeing what kind of surprising things happen whenever we create.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: I think that's part of the process, and it's pretty hard to nail it down, and it's pretty hard to define exactly what it is that's happening, I think, which is part of why we all love art, because of that unpredictability and part of that surprise of that whole process.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: So I think that whether you're asking is whether it's a legitimate goal to try and be unique just for the sake of being different, and I'm not sure that it really makes any difference whether someone is trying to be unique or whether they're not trying to be unique, but it ends up being unique as a result of the creative process.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: And in some respects, it's not really for us to decide.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: I think our job is just to follow our creativity and to follow the calling that we feel like we have in our lives, to work hard and just to kind of see where it goes.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: Other people have to evaluate whether our work is good or interesting or unique.
6:24
SPEAKER_00: All that we can do is to do our best, get feedback on it, and then try to improve as we go along.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't necessarily see it as a problem if somebody wants to be unique just for the sake of being unique, because some cool things may result from that.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you might have a happy accident that just comes along as a result of the creative process.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: And whether we're pursuing uniqueness or not or just trying to be creative, um as long as something cool comes from the process, I think that is totally okay.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: However, at the end of the day, I think the best uniqueness and the best art comes from just being legitimately curious and following our interests and our passion and our curiosity.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that'll be a dead end, but sometimes it'll take us someplace interesting.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: So Elijah, thanks so much for your question.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: Give that some thought and let me know what you think.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: As a thanks for sending in your question, I'll be shooting you a copy of my book, The Artist's Suitcase.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: And for everybody else who's listening, if you have a question about the creative life, habits, mindset, productivity, or writing, you can submit it by going to Kent Sanders.net slash podcast and filling out the question form there.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: And if I use your question on the show, I'll send you a free copy of the Artist Suitcase.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, I'm really excited to have Ginger Moran on the show.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: Ginger is a novelist and a memoirist who speaks about writing and creativity.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: She also helps other people write their books.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: She holds a PhD in literature and creative writing from the University of Virginia and has taught at several universities, including Fisk University and the University of Virginia.
7:59
SPEAKER_00: Her novel, The Algebra of Snow, was nominated for a Pushcart Editor's Choice Award and was published in 2012.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: Her essays have appeared in Oxford American, Virginia Quarterly Review, Literary Mama, and many other places.
8:15
SPEAKER_00: She works one-on-one with writers in developing a top quality book.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: Today in our conversation, we focus on what it means to have creative authority, why creativity is fundamental to who you are, daily steps to take toward creativity, and how to overcome obstacles to become a successful writer.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: Ginger really piqued my curiosity with her wisdom and her insights about the creative process.
8:37
SPEAKER_00: And I know you're going to love this interview as well.
8:39
SPEAKER_00: And don't forget, after the conversation, make sure and check out the show notes and leave a comment if you like at KentSanders.net slash zero nine four.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get to the conversation with Ginger Moran.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: Ginger, thank you so much for being on the show today.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: Um we talked, oh, it's been I think uh a few weeks ago on Skype, I think it was.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: Today we're on Zoom, and I'm uh no matter the platform, I'm really glad to be able to have the opportunity to chat with you.
9:08
SPEAKER_02: And you too.
9:09
SPEAKER_02: I really enjoyed talking to you before, and I'm looking forward to continuing the conversation.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: So today we're talking about stepping into your creative authority.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if that's going to end up being the actual title of this episode, but that's kind of the gist of it.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: Before we dive into specifics, though, let's define what you mean by creativity.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: This is a question that I don't ask enough, is how people actually define what creativity is.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: So I know this is something that you've thought about a lot over the years.
9:36
SPEAKER_00: So, how would you define creativity?
9:39
SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to steal somebody else's definition.
9:44
SPEAKER_02: This is Dr.
9:46
SPEAKER_02: Shelly Carson.
9:47
SPEAKER_02: I heard her give a talk.
9:49
SPEAKER_02: She's a Harvard professor of neuroscience and uh neuropsychology.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: And she gave a talk on creativity, so it's her specialty.
9:57
SPEAKER_02: So I'm stealing her definition, which is um she calls creativity combining and recombining for adaptive purposes.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: That's great.
10:08
SPEAKER_02: I know that's the best definition I've heard.
10:11
SPEAKER_02: I think through, you know, we can talk about what it feels like to be creative.
10:15
SPEAKER_02: We can kind of talk about creative products, but really trying to define what it is.
10:20
SPEAKER_02: And I think that that makes it so accessible too, because really, aren't we all doing that all day, every day?
10:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:30
SPEAKER_02: That's that's really we all live really creative lives and we might not recognize it as such.
10:38
SPEAKER_00: You know, I think that is so true because I mean, even somebody who is, let's say, an auto mechanic, you know, that involves a lot of creativity because you're diagnosing problems, you're formulating solutions, anything can be creative.
10:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you're just having to shift constantly in response to the circumstances.
10:55
SPEAKER_02: You know, the perfect definition of it to me is child raising.
10:59
SPEAKER_02: It's like that's the ultimate creative activity because you're in this constant interaction and you're constantly, it's a narrative that keeps changing.
11:09
SPEAKER_02: Uh so you just have to keep changing with it while you're trying to convey certain things that uh you're you it's it's uh it's endlessly challenging and my computer isn't true.
11:20
SPEAKER_02: So it's still it's still a challenge.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: My son is 14 now, and he's he's a freshman in high school, so yeah, I can definitely relate to to what you mean by things change over time.
11:31
SPEAKER_02: They change a lot, and they just they honestly change minute to minute or between children.
11:36
SPEAKER_02: My I have two sons, they're only 18 months apart, but they might as well have come from different planets.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
11:42
SPEAKER_02: So like, yeah, like you know, it it would it took a lot of creativity and still does.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: So if creativity is is combining and recombining things, then how do you define creative authority?
11:56
SPEAKER_00: That that's a term that I've I've never heard anybody else use, so I'm really curious to to find out what you mean by creative authority.
12:03
SPEAKER_02: So I'm really glad you haven't heard it because I'm hoping I made it up.
12:10
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I have always felt like I was a strange mixture of being really, really creative, highly associative.
12:20
SPEAKER_02: There's nothing I love more than a pile of metaphors.
12:24
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I my brain can really zing all over the place, but I'm also extremely logical, extremely rational.
12:32
SPEAKER_02: I got through a PhD program, you know, so I you know, I must be able to sequence things well enough to achieve that.
12:41
SPEAKER_02: Um I was kind of looking for a way to put those two things together.
12:45
SPEAKER_02: And I think particularly writing long form, writing books, which is mostly what I do, and I work with people or writing books, it really calls for both things.
12:54
SPEAKER_02: You have to know when to just be all over the place with your associations, your metaphors, your adapting and readapting, you know, combining and recombining.
13:06
SPEAKER_02: Um and then you have to know how to really create order.
13:09
SPEAKER_02: You know how have to know how to sequence things, you know how to have to know how to apply discipline and logic.
13:16
SPEAKER_02: Um, so to me, creative authority is combining those two parts.
13:20
SPEAKER_02: It's about creativity, but it's also about authority.
13:24
SPEAKER_02: You notice the author in there.
13:26
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
13:26
SPEAKER_02: Um it's it's um, you know, I've the farther I've gone with my career, the more that I work with people, the more I start to realize how important it is to embrace your authority.
13:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh when I first started, it was, you know, I wanted to, you know, get be a New York Times bestseller, mainstream publication, you know, really hot agent, and you know, I wasn't gonna be happy unless my book, you know, was adapted to a movie that won an Academy Award.
13:58
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, that doesn't happen for everybody.
14:01
SPEAKER_02: Hasn't happened for me yet.
14:03
SPEAKER_02: So hopeful.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: Never say never.
14:05
SPEAKER_02: Never say never, but does that mean that my writing career wasn't gonna be satisfying short of that?
14:14
SPEAKER_02: And so I had to really step into my authority about what I considered a good writing career.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: I had to create that out of my own inner direction.
14:24
SPEAKER_02: Um so that's uh the the Seth Boden talks about this in his new book, um, This is Marketing.
14:33
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I love it.
14:34
SPEAKER_02: He says, it's such a good book, and I've I've totally swiped his idea.
14:40
SPEAKER_02: You know, I heard him on podcasting that infinite creativity will die in the face of infinite need.
14:49
SPEAKER_02: And I was like knocked down by that because I think that if you're trying to accomplish everything, trying to please everybody, trying to reach every goal, every star, this infinite creativity, which is this incredible gift and feels inexhaustible, will dry up.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: You know, if you're just trying to hit all those markers and you are not clear about what it is that you want from your career, if you haven't really gotten in touch with what your inner desire is, um, you can really get frustrated and uh and stop, which is just a darn shame, um, because that's denying a gift and denying access to that gift for other people who really want it.
15:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, so I've gotten more and more interested in this idea of defining your own purpose, of embracing your own authority and being really clear about what it is that you want, because you can get that.
15:50
SPEAKER_02: Whatever it is, you can get that.
15:52
SPEAKER_02: But it's hugely important that you know what it is and that it's coming from inside you.
15:58
SPEAKER_02: You're not trying to please all the masters out here.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: You just never will.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: Now let me play devil's advocate for just a minute.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: Let's say somebody's listening to this and and they they're going, hey, all that that sounds great, ginger, but but I don't know what I want.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: How how do you how do you help people who who really have a hard time seeing beyond the day-to-day, the day-to-day problems with maybe work or relationships or family or money or whatever it is, maybe they're stuck in a job they don't like.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: How how do you help them to how can how can you help them to see beyond that and develop a bigger vision and dream bigger dreams and and sort of dare to reach for something more than just living a day-to-day existence?
16:41
SPEAKER_02: So I think that I love that question, Kent.
16:43
SPEAKER_02: That is just such a great question.
16:45
SPEAKER_02: Is the thing that I love the most about art, and as an artist, it's the thing I love most about creating art, and you know what this feels like too, um, is that so I've I've just recently been um giving a talk about why you are a genius.
17:03
SPEAKER_02: And the word genius only recently came to be understood as something extraordinary until the 19th century.
17:10
SPEAKER_02: It was something that we all, it was considered to be something that we all had.
17:14
SPEAKER_02: It was the spirit we're born with, the reason we're here.
17:19
SPEAKER_02: And um this will sound a bit woo-woo, you know, for somebody who comes you know with a PhD and all that.
17:27
SPEAKER_02: But I do think that writing has an enormous, and all of art has an enormous spiritual component.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: We are spiritual beings, and we do have a genius.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: Dolly Parton says a star is someone who shines where they are.
17:43
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I really work with people a lot about this is to really look at what is that thing that is uniquely you?
17:53
SPEAKER_02: What is that thing you were you were you came here to deliver?
17:58
SPEAKER_02: You know, and people do know what it is, it can get totally covered up in the you know, the Monday and the everyday, but it's amazing how quickly people will go to it, you know, they will know it, you know, somewhere inside them.
18:14
SPEAKER_02: They know what that spark is, you know, they know what that particular vision, that particular voice is.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, so I work with people a lot in that.
18:24
SPEAKER_02: It's really why I added life coaching to my PhD.
18:28
SPEAKER_02: Like my PhD taught me the craft.
18:30
SPEAKER_02: So life coaching has really helped me um develop the other end of it where we're really able to explore in a more open-ended way.
18:39
SPEAKER_02: Um, what is that spark?
18:41
SPEAKER_02: You know, what is that, what is that reason for being uh that once you tap into that and you allow a little bit of space, it doesn't take a lot of space.
18:51
SPEAKER_02: I raised two kids by myself and took care of a dying father while I work full-time.
18:56
SPEAKER_02: Um it is possible, it is not easy, but it is possible to have a little tiny bit of time in a day where you are in touch with that.
19:06
SPEAKER_02: And it could take the form of decorating a birthday cake really well.
19:10
SPEAKER_02: You know, if that's your genius, that is your genius.
19:13
SPEAKER_02: You know, it you you could tell a story really well, you know.
19:18
SPEAKER_02: There there is something there, you know.
19:21
SPEAKER_02: So that's that is the the spark that that makes everything go.
19:28
SPEAKER_02: Abraham Maslow puts creativity on the top of the the pyramid of needs.
19:33
SPEAKER_02: I say it's fundamental.
19:35
SPEAKER_02: It is fundamental to who we are.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I think so.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: It's absolutely fun.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, I wouldn't be doing this podcast.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: So absolutely.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:45
SPEAKER_00: So you and I are both academics, uh, you know, with lots of years and experience in the academic world.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: Other people are in other fields or careers where they're basically following a track, you know.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: And for people who are listening who who've never worked in a college or university setting or even a public school setting, I would say is very much the same way.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, your career can go off on different trajectories.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: I didn't say that right.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: Trajectories, that's our important thing.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: But generally, it's kind of like train tracks in which you're kind of expected to get more degrees and you're expected to maybe advance up to being an administrator or whatever it is.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: But it's not as if there's a lot of creativity involved in higher education.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, let's just be honest.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: It's not like you can just go say, I'm gonna go develop this big new thing and everybody's gonna love it.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: Generally, that's not the case in the world of academics.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: Now, that's that's no knock on where I teach at all.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: In fact, I feel very fortunate because they've let me develop a lot of courses and I've had an unusual amount of freedom where I work, which I've really appreciated.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: But for people who feel like they're stuck in a in a track that they can explore that creativity.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: How did they develop that impulse to to want to create something?
20:56
SPEAKER_00: And I don't I don't mean turning in their resignation, um, you know, going in and saying I quit this.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm not I'm not talking about that.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean just the impulse to create something and to get past the fear of of bringing that creativity out and just saying, I I really want to let myself shine a little bit more.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that you would say to people who are just timid and are afraid to put themselves out there a little bit?
21:22
SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, you know, I think that again, it's uh there you can I uh to me though, the way to meet any creative challenge is actually to dream big, but take tiny, tiny steps.
21:35
SPEAKER_02: Uh and so don't think about it as like, you know, suddenly you're gonna break into song and dance.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: Right.
21:43
SPEAKER_02: It's like that's just because it's probably not gonna happen.
21:46
SPEAKER_02: Um it's really to find those tiny, tiny little moments, those tiny little spaces where that creativity can just bloom, where you can just allow it to bloom.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: You know, as I said, I raise two kids by myself.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: And work full time and took care of a dying father.
22:03
SPEAKER_02: And you know, I had to get up super early in the morning to um get any pages in at all.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: But if I wrote a page in a day, that was a great day.
22:15
SPEAKER_02: You know, I could feel really satisfied and happy.
22:18
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, at the end of the year, you have a book.
22:21
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, it's sort of by whatever means necessary.
22:24
SPEAKER_02: And if it feels too big, make it smaller.
22:27
SPEAKER_02: Cut the goal in half, you know, um, do something smaller or just recognize the level of creativity.
22:35
SPEAKER_02: Like if you made just a whiz-bang to-do list for today was like super creative, and you just like you got really, really got behind it, and um, it was a thing of beauty, that's an artwork too.
22:48
SPEAKER_02: So sort of make make those little spaces and also just recognize how much is already there.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: I think you've hit on something really, really important when it comes to this topic of creativity, which is so oftentimes we feel like it should just be some burst of genius or I've got this burst of energy and excitement, I'm gonna make something really cool.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't usually work that way.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: It's step by step by step.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, even just writing 500 words a day, if you do that for two months, you've got a 30,000-word book.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: It's which is like 150 pages.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: So you could totally do that.
23:23
SPEAKER_02: You can totally do that.
23:24
SPEAKER_02: You know, I was um I was reading, oh, um, can't remember who it is.
23:29
SPEAKER_02: Maybe uh uh the unmistakable creative or uh I know that's such a good podcast, really fun.
23:38
SPEAKER_02: Uh or Jeff Goens.
23:39
SPEAKER_02: It's just like, you know, it really does have to do with that habit and routine.
23:43
SPEAKER_02: And again, this is that combination of the creative and the framework.
23:48
SPEAKER_02: You have to create the framework for it to happen.
23:51
SPEAKER_02: You can write, you know, 500 words in half an hour pretty easily.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: You know, you really can.
23:59
SPEAKER_02: You really can.
24:00
SPEAKER_02: You have to turn off the editor.
24:02
SPEAKER_02: This is why I always say do it sleepy.
24:05
SPEAKER_02: Like if you're a morning person like I am, get up a little too early.
24:10
SPEAKER_02: You know, make sure the editor is still asleep.
24:14
SPEAKER_02: Or if you're a night person, wait until you're just a little bit tired and write when that editor is sleeping, because the only way to do those 500 words is to let yourself be really messy about it.
24:25
SPEAKER_02: Know that you'll fix it later.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: So, would you say this this goes back to this idea of creative authority and inner direction, which I love those two phrases, by the way.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: This idea of I'm taking control of my life, I'm going to determine my creative destiny.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: I want to make something rather than being sort of a passive observer of my life.
24:42
SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
24:43
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, absolutely.
24:45
SPEAKER_02: We know, I just think there's so much, it's somebody else's responsibility.
24:52
SPEAKER_02: This is kind of a thing that I've come into more and more as an entrepreneur, like going from an academic where you're in a big institution and into more entrepreneurship.
25:03
SPEAKER_02: Um, I think most writers end up having to be kind of entrepreneurs, but there's something so profoundly um challenging and liberating about being in charge of it all.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
25:14
SPEAKER_02: Uh and you have to just say, you know, this is my one life.
25:19
SPEAKER_02: This is my one wild life.
25:22
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I have choices I can make about it.
25:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, and it really is up to me to to do that.
25:30
SPEAKER_02: You know, it isn't, you know, I can't I can't blame it on my boss anymore.
25:34
SPEAKER_02: I'm the boss.
25:35
SPEAKER_02: It's like we can we can be so self-oppressing, but we can also be self-liberating.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't have to mean walking into an office and quitting a job today.
25:49
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: Most of the time that's not the direction you should go.
25:52
SPEAKER_02: You know, no, it's that's not really freeing.
25:55
SPEAKER_02: You know, if you end up with no money, that's not free.
26:00
SPEAKER_02: Uh-oh.
26:01
SPEAKER_02: No.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: What's been interesting in my setting is I've now, of course, I teach at a small college where there's there's probably more freedom than there would be at a big university.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: But uh many times I've gone into you know, our academic dean or some other person on campus and I said, hey, I got a crazy idea.
26:17
SPEAKER_00: What do you think about me starting a podcast or me teaching this class I'm gonna offer something?
26:22
SPEAKER_00: And I think what's interesting is that even in your day job, if you want to do something more creative, you can frame it in a way that it benefits your employer.
26:30
SPEAKER_00: But they will be like more likely than not to say yes if it's a benefit to them.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: Yes, you know, in some way.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: So it's not as if the day jobs are some sort of enemy that's lurking over our shoulder.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: They can really help us in many ways.
26:46
SPEAKER_02: Yes, and again, I think I really like the way that you frame that because I think it's and it's very similar to um, see, I can't help making metaphors, it's similar to uh dealing with a reader.
26:59
SPEAKER_02: It's like you have a vision, you know, when you're writing a book, you have a vision you want to express, but you also want it to connect with somebody.
27:08
SPEAKER_02: So you have to think about what do they need to hear from me?
27:12
SPEAKER_02: You know, to me, that's like that that that vision is just the pure creative end of it.
27:19
SPEAKER_02: The craft that you then apply is what makes it accessible to somebody else.
27:26
SPEAKER_02: It's how do I make this connect?
27:29
SPEAKER_02: How do I create that connection with somebody else?
27:32
SPEAKER_02: And you have to think, what do they need?
27:34
SPEAKER_02: You know, which is what you have to do with your employer.
27:37
SPEAKER_02: You can't just say, you need to take my beautiful mess and appreciate it.
27:42
SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, how can my beautiful mess benefit this person and how can I persuade them that that is true?
27:50
SPEAKER_02: Again, it's it's really is back to that, you know, authority.
27:54
SPEAKER_02: It's like, you know, I want to be more creative at work.
27:56
SPEAKER_02: How can I help my boss see that this will be of benefit to them?
28:01
SPEAKER_00: To me, that goes back to the idea of sometimes we don't need to, it's it's it's not that we need to escape from something.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe the best opportunities are right there in front of our face, but we're not looking for it.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean, my goodness, you can learn marketing, you can learn copywriting, you can learn sales, you can learn all that stuff in whatever job you're in.
28:20
SPEAKER_02: It's really true.
28:22
SPEAKER_02: It is really, really true.
28:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:24
SPEAKER_02: It's one of the reasons I really I when I did my life coach training with Martha Beck, she has us do a lot with Byron Katie's the work.
28:33
SPEAKER_02: And the work is really all about discovering how your you have how your thoughts are are your own thoughts are limiting you, which isn't to say, you know, you're you're creating your own reality exactly.
28:47
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we are dealing with a reality that is out there.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: But we can we we we can shift it a little if we can understand the ways in which our own thinking can get limited.
29:00
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
29:01
SPEAKER_02: Without our knowing it.
29:02
SPEAKER_02: And if you can get in there and wiggle around with that, you can you can find all kinds of freedom in that.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the the problem is not out there.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: The problem is in here between our ears most of the time.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: It's it is so it is so inside us.
29:19
SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, and again, I'm not encouraging people to blame themselves.
29:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm encouraging them to find all the many ways that are you can free yourself from that exactly beliefs.
29:34
SPEAKER_00: Because if you don't have the right mindset, even if you and you know, I'm not trying to pick on jobs necessarily, but if someone is in a job they hate, and and I'm not, you know, sometimes you say, hey, I know this guy who when you're talking about yourself, I just want to make it clear I'm not talking about myself.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: I love where I work, I love where I teach, you know, and all that.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: But if somebody's in a job that they hate, and but your mindset is not correct, you can jump that ship and get on a different ship, but you're still gonna be the same person who's not gonna go anywhere.
30:00
SPEAKER_02: What is that?
30:01
SPEAKER_02: Wherever you go, there you are.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can't you can't get out of your own skin.
30:06
SPEAKER_02: No, no.
30:07
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I and I I'll be let me be the first to say I I I've had plenty of jobs I hated.
30:14
SPEAKER_02: So, and I'm very glad not to be doing them anymore.
30:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so you know, there there is a you know, there is a a level at which it just it can just be real that it's just the wrong job or so it's just a bad fit.
30:29
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think you have to do your due diligence first and find out uh how much of it is you, you know.
30:36
SPEAKER_02: And you have to do that kind of work before you can just say, okay, I have really done everything I could and now I just have to go.
30:43
SPEAKER_02: Because it is not liberating.
30:45
SPEAKER_02: Let me be the first to say, to really to run your own business.
30:49
SPEAKER_02: It's not easy, you know.
30:51
SPEAKER_02: That is not an easy thing to do.
30:53
SPEAKER_02: So if you think, you know, it's sort of like your kid thinking that you know, if they cry and scream, it's you they're gonna get something that's better.
31:01
SPEAKER_02: And you know, they get that candy and they end up feeling horrible.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: Be careful what you miss work.
31:09
SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
31:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like well, really, did you need a nap instead?
31:14
SPEAKER_02: You know, maybe you did.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: Naps are good.
31:18
SPEAKER_02: Naps are really, really good.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: Hey, I hope you're enjoying the conversation, and we'll get back to it in just a minute.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: But first, I want to take a second to mention that this episode is brought to you by Audible.
31:28
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31:34
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31:41
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31:44
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31:45
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31:47
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31:54
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31:59
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32:02
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32:03
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32:15
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32:21
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32:28
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32:30
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32:38
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32:40
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32:48
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32:51
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32:58
SPEAKER_00: Now let's get back to the conversation with Ginger.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about writing a little bit and drill down specifically on this because a lot of people listening to this show they either are writers or they would like to be a writer.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: So writing is kind of the creative hub around which a lot of these episodes revolve a little bit.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: What would you say some of the big the biggest obstacles are to someone being a successful writer?
33:22
SPEAKER_00: And when I say successful, I'm intentionally leaving that vague because success means different things to different people.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: So how you would define success, what are the biggest obstacles that you see as you work with people?
33:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so yeah, I think you actually went right to one of the biggest problems that I see, one of the biggest obstacles I see.
33:42
SPEAKER_02: And so I actually am going to be teaching a class about this.
33:45
SPEAKER_02: So by the time this podcast airs, this class will actually be available on my website.
33:50
SPEAKER_02: But it really does have to do with defining what you mean by success.
33:54
SPEAKER_02: You know, if if you mean, you know, mainstream publication, New York Times bestseller, you know, made into a movie, you can do that.
34:02
SPEAKER_02: You know, one of my colleagues in graduate school wrote Crazy Heart, the book that turned into an Oh yeah, to the uh the movie?
34:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the movie, yeah, with and you know, he got to write to the Academy Awards ceremony with Jeff Ridges in a limousine, which is a lot of fun.
34:19
SPEAKER_02: I love that idea.
34:20
SPEAKER_02: But that is is not, you know, that and that can happen.
34:24
SPEAKER_02: But you have there's a very certain path for that.
34:27
SPEAKER_02: So if that's really what you're dedicated to, it's you know, get really clear about that and then absolutely go for it.
34:35
SPEAKER_02: Um if that if you're okay with not hitting that, then there are so many different ways of finding satisfaction.
34:45
SPEAKER_02: But I think where people get frustrated is they don't define that for themselves.
34:49
SPEAKER_02: I'm just really redundant at this point.
34:52
SPEAKER_02: But anyway, it's that they think, you know, that somehow somebody out there is gonna come along and say, oh, you know what, you are just so talented, or you know, this is just the best book I've ever read.
35:04
SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, that somehow that's gonna happen just spontaneously.
35:10
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I think the whole issue of talent is a very fretted issue.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: I knew so many people in graduate school that were a thousand times more talented than I, but they're they're not writing anymore.
35:22
SPEAKER_02: And I am, you know, I'm working on my fifth novel now.
35:26
SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, you know, who won that one?
35:29
SPEAKER_02: It's like talent, you know.
35:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, it's really a question of, you know, I I have a deeply satisfying relationship with my books.
35:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, I haven't ridden in the limousine with Jeff Ridges yet.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: Um every day I get to write.
35:49
SPEAKER_02: Every day I get to live in the land of imagination.
35:52
SPEAKER_02: Every day I get to create those things that I love to read as a child.
35:56
SPEAKER_02: You know, I get to make stuff up.
35:59
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, that if if that is how I'm defining success, I am successful every single day.
36:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:08
SPEAKER_02: Do I reach readers?
36:10
SPEAKER_02: I do.
36:11
SPEAKER_02: I have people who really like my stuff.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: Does everybody like it?
36:14
SPEAKER_02: No.
36:15
SPEAKER_02: You know, people, um, you know, it's not to everybody's taste what I'm doing.
36:20
SPEAKER_02: Again, it's like I'll go back to, you know, Seth Godin.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: He talks about look, you know, being really clear about what your goal is.
36:29
SPEAKER_02: If you reach a hundred people and 50 people write back and tell you that their book, your book changed their life, you are a spectacular success.
36:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
36:42
SPEAKER_02: If you're if you want to entertain your family and you write some really funny family stories and you know, people in the family read it and they really laugh about it, you've created a legacy.
36:52
SPEAKER_02: What a treasure.
36:54
SPEAKER_02: You know, but that as long as you know that that's what you set out to do, um, then you're gonna be super satisfied.
37:02
SPEAKER_02: But again, it's the the setting out to to please everybody all the time is really a great way to make yourself miserable.
37:13
SPEAKER_02: Let's put it that way.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: That's the negative view of it.
37:16
SPEAKER_02: Being really clear about your objectives, your purpose, where you're going from the start, you know, getting somebody to help you with that, help you to understand what that really means, and to find that thing in yourself that is going to feel like getting to home base is really important from the beginning.
37:36
SPEAKER_00: Don't you think that that's that's a big part of being a professional versus being an amateur is being able to separate your work from your personal value and identity.
37:46
SPEAKER_00: Because you know, once you create something and put it out there, it's its own thing.
37:50
SPEAKER_00: And that when somebody doesn't like it, that doesn't mean that you're not valuable as a person or that's just hey, that it wasn't for them, or hey, maybe it wasn't, maybe I didn't create something that great, and maybe I can do better next time.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: So there's a sense in which we kind of have to emotionally divorce ourselves from what people think of our work because that's not us.
38:12
SPEAKER_02: It's really true.
38:13
SPEAKER_02: I had to just explain that to somebody that I met in a public place at the Shakespeare um theater, and she uh she wanted to read my book, and so I and she did.
38:26
SPEAKER_02: So I I so appreciate her taking the time and energy.
38:29
SPEAKER_02: So my my novel, The Algebra of Snow, has a really dark place in it.
38:35
SPEAKER_02: Um, and as you can tell, I'm not a very dark person.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: It's just it just was that was the way that book told itself.
38:41
SPEAKER_02: That was the story.
38:43
SPEAKER_02: Uh that was the story that was the one's voice.
38:46
SPEAKER_02: So this this woman who, you know, I'm so grateful to her that she read it.
38:50
SPEAKER_02: She wrote and said, Well, you know, the first part of the book was really good, but you don't have to use that kind of crude language.
38:56
SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, you know, I just wrote back and thanked her very much for reading it for the take taking the time to give me the feedback and just said, you know, I am no more that character than Shakespeare was Iago.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:09
SPEAKER_02: You know, Iago came through Shakespeare.
39:13
SPEAKER_02: He didn't be Shakespeare didn't turn into an evil genius, you know, who would kill lives.
39:19
SPEAKER_02: Uh but you know, sometimes people, even really, really good readers, don't understand the way in which we are really inhabited by these um characters.
39:31
SPEAKER_02: It sounds really weird.
39:33
SPEAKER_02: And you know, if I weren't a writer, sometimes I would think I was kind of crazy and haunted, but I'm so used to it now.
39:40
SPEAKER_02: I had one story tell itself in my head by a male truck driver.
39:45
SPEAKER_02: It's like, I'm like this totally nerdy, um, you know, female academic.
39:50
SPEAKER_02: I could not be less of a male truck driver.
39:53
SPEAKER_02: But you know, that story actually won an award.
39:56
SPEAKER_02: Uh and um, you know, it I submitted it anonymously, and they were totally shocked to find out who I was.
40:06
SPEAKER_02: But, you know, really honestly, I was just vacuuming one day, and that voice started telling that story in my head, and there was nothing I could do but run to my desk and write a channel.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
40:17
SPEAKER_02: Uh so yeah.
40:19
SPEAKER_02: So it is, it is, you know, even nonfiction can be a voice or a vision that isn't you, you know.
40:28
SPEAKER_02: Again, it's I I think, you know, I really do see writing as very spiritual and there is an element to it that is not us, that we are just opening a channel to let something come through.
40:44
SPEAKER_00: Are you familiar with the the master class thing that you can master class that you can get online?
40:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
40:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
40:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know if you've seen any of those, but I've been going through the one by Neil Gaiman, the author of the session I was watching just a couple days ago, he was talking about you know, listening, exactly what you're talking about, which is listening for what the story and the characters are trying to say to you.
41:07
SPEAKER_00: It's not not so much a matter of I'm creating this, it's more a matter of I'm listening to what they're saying and writing it down.
41:13
SPEAKER_02: I mean it's it's I'm simplifying it, but and I'm saying it way less cooler than he said it, but yeah, we hope all those we hope those, you know, that Neil Gaiman isn't really those people, right?
41:24
SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
41:25
SPEAKER_02: That's really yeah, it does.
41:27
SPEAKER_02: I I mean I think people who don't have that experience uh think that it's a little disingenuous.
41:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, and it's maybe an excuse to say terrible things, but um I I just don't see it that way.
41:41
SPEAKER_02: I just I had to say that woman, you know, that was the way that voice came to me, and I had to honor it.
41:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, the characters that I'm writing now don't talk like that.
41:53
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, what can I say?
41:55
SPEAKER_02: They grew up or something.
41:56
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what happened to them.
41:58
SPEAKER_02: They're just doing different things now.
42:00
SPEAKER_02: So um, yeah, so it it can sound like an excuse, but it's it feels very real to me.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, there is part of the whole creative process, and I think in particular writing that is sort of mystical.
42:13
SPEAKER_00: And I I think it's a part that you know many of us we we don't want to define what it is.
42:17
SPEAKER_00: It's just it is what it is, and yeah, yeah, you know, our subconscious and our minds are enormously powerful, and I don't think I want to understand all of that.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: I think I I there's a part that I want to leave as a mystery in.
42:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
42:30
SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, um I so I listen to way too many podcasts, but um if there is such a thing.
42:37
SPEAKER_02: But I was listening one recently, I'm pretty sure this was on Hidden Brain, and there was a um psychiatrist who studies the brain hemispheres, um, talking about the left and right hemispheres.
42:49
SPEAKER_02: And we're probably all really sort of familiar with the right hemisphere being that creative, you know, um associative artistic uh hemisphere, and the left brain being the logical.
43:02
SPEAKER_02: His argument was a little bit different.
43:04
SPEAKER_02: It was that um not only are those sort of fundamentally the different um hemispheres, the way that they function, but that our culture has come to value the left brain, the logical and the rational too much, and that it's actually that creative uh right brain that should be the master and the left brain is its servant.
43:27
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think that is, you know, for anybody who's an artist, it's like, yes, it's like, yeah, you know, that it should be that like the ability to live in that world of imagination and proliferation and possibility and hope.
43:45
SPEAKER_02: And yes, there's darkness in there too, but things that just lift us out of this, you know, the mundane.
43:54
SPEAKER_02: Um or or take the mundane and make it really beautiful.
43:59
SPEAKER_02: I mean.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: some of the best literature is really about everyday life and just you know makes it um uh makes us honor and appreciate it in different ways uh absolutely yeah so like well who who doesn't want to live there yeah I want to live there absolutely sounds like a great place really well as we start to um to wind this down a little bit I I do want to hit a few more things here briefly one is um I always like to to kind of whittle it down to some practical things that that people can do if you were going to suggest to one habit or practice that somebody could start doing in their life maybe even begin in the next 24 hours is there something that they could do on a practical level to begin releasing their creativity?
44:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah so if they if if they're writers just sit down and write and it doesn't matter what you write for 15 minutes just 15 minutes that's really all you need to do you're gonna get a page out of it and it's gonna be great and um just do that whatever you do just give yourself 15 minutes.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: I love that that's great.
45:13
SPEAKER_02: It's really simple it's really easy you just do it.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: You know it's kind of funny it's amazing what comes out if you just sit down and make the commitment to write for 15 minutes or whatever length of time it's just you know you're like oh I didn't even know that was in my head.
45:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah and if you need a prompt there are a zillion trillion writing prompts uh you know on the internet um there are plenty of like journal prompts out there or pictures that you can write from and just you know let yourself do for 15 minutes let yourself play so I always include a lightning round in my podcast conversations and the lightning round is I just ask a series of quick questions um just to probe your creative mind a little bit more okay we'll see what happens we'll see what falls out so the uh the first one is what's your favorite movie uh so um my favorite movie is anything that Agatha Christie did I'm such a terrible Agatha Christie freak so uh I I'd probably murder on Orient Express.
46:15
SPEAKER_00: Nice nice now would that be the old one or the new one that came out a couple years ago?
46:20
SPEAKER_02: The old one.
46:21
SPEAKER_02: I like the old one I like the new one too because I'm easy that way but uh the old one is really my favorite my very favorite one is her the really old version of the of and then there were none the black and white version which is pretty fantastic.
46:37
SPEAKER_02: Cool I'll check that out yeah definitely too who's your favorite music group or solo artist Bruce Springsteen oh yes I love Springsteen such a storyteller such a storyteller and his uh Springsteen on Broadway is on Netflix now yeah that is great end to end storytelling is just magnificent so you read his book Born to Run absolutely and I and what's more because this is really how bad I am I've listened to it and he's actually reading it yeah it's so cool to hear it in his voice.
47:11
SPEAKER_00: That is one of the um few books that I've read in recent years where from literally the first two or three sentences I was hooked.
47:20
SPEAKER_00: And my first thought was why has he not been writing books all these years?
47:23
SPEAKER_02: He's a phenomenal writer well here's so this is how cynical I am I thought oh my God he must have gotten somebody else to write this yeah and then I thought no wait a minute he has been practicing story craft since he was a child.
47:40
SPEAKER_02: Like oh that's how you get really good at it.
47:43
SPEAKER_02: And again you know I think the other thing that that book really brought home to me which Tom Petty's um biography also does what is that writing down a dream is to just make clear how all in they were from the beginning.
48:01
SPEAKER_02: And there was no limit on what they were going to do.
48:06
SPEAKER_02: They were going to go to any length.
48:09
SPEAKER_02: And you know when I'm taught when when people come to me with these big dreams I think I say you know go read books about people who succeeded and see what they were willing to do and ask yourself are you willing to do that?
48:23
SPEAKER_02: You know are you willing to go all in because the people who make it at that level often are the ones who went the distance yeah that's true.
48:33
SPEAKER_02: So it's really to me it's like super inspirational and it also is really instructive to me because I wasn't gonna do that.
48:40
SPEAKER_02: You know I just didn't have that kind of drive it's extraordinary what he does like oh well you know I'm more lotting on than that like but don't expect those same results you know that was not luck that was not you know the gods shining on him he fought for every bit of yeah and really hard okay number three three out of five in the lightning round is what is your favorite book either fiction or nonfiction so once again it's Agatha Chrissy I just think she's brilliant I you know just truly think she's brilliant so what's your favorite book of hers uh uh it's probably whatever I read last which I think was Towards Zero which is an amazing book cool I'll link to that in the show notes if I don't forget so okay number four what was your biggest creative failure and what did you learn from it?
49:45
SPEAKER_02: So I so I had this really stupendous it was a series of failures where I sent a story out a whole bunch of times.
49:57
SPEAKER_02: It was soundly rejected so many times that when I wrote my dissertation I took the negative blurbs from those letters and put it in the introduction to my dissertation as negative jacket blurbs because they were so bad.
50:14
SPEAKER_02: The worst of which came from a literary journal which I will not name that where we had actually published something before but the reader I accidentally got the reader's comments and the reader's comments and you can see this is totally gone from my mind because I don't remember these at all the reader's comments were these characters are so vacuous the writer doesn't seem interested in them it was really so terrible it was just terrible I would say stubborn writer from the get go and I kept sending that story out it was accepted somewhere else very a very good publication and the editor wrote back and said it was exhilarating the voice was exhilarating and I had changed nothing not one my characters were no less vacuous she loved the voice though so it was just so that was my probably my my worst defeat and one of my biggest victories.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: That's cool.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: You know it's funny oftentimes how it's amazing how closely those things are tied together the victories and the defeats okay number five is what is the project you're most excited about working on right now?
51:32
SPEAKER_02: So I've been working on a spy thriller which I've never done before um I've written all kinds of different genres but I've never done a spy thriller this is a little bit off to the side because it's the main character is not a spy her husband is a spy.
51:47
SPEAKER_02: So um I'm really enjoying it and I'm having a good time with it.
51:51
SPEAKER_02: So cool when do you anticipate we'll be able to read that well I will finish this draft of it in June so I'm working my way through that now and I hope to be pitching it to agents this summer.
52:05
unknown: Very cool.
52:06
SPEAKER_02: I'll be excited to uh to see how that turns out okay it's been fun.
52:12
SPEAKER_00: So um ginger I really appreciate you taking time to chat with me today.
52:15
SPEAKER_00: This has been a lot of good stuff so much wisdom that you shared with us how can our listeners um how can our listeners connect with you and your work?
52:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah so I have a website it's just gingermaran.com g-in-g-e-r-m-o-r-an dot com I have a blog there I also do free webinars um teaching about rating um pretty much on a monthly basis um and I do a lot of teaching in my blog and that's the best way to find me.
52:45
SPEAKER_00: Well I want to encourage everybody to sign up for Ginger's email list.
52:48
SPEAKER_00: You put out some really good stuff I'm on your list and I really really enjoy it.
52:52
SPEAKER_00: So Ginger thanks so much for sharing your wisdom so graciously and so generously thanks for all that you're doing to make this world a better place and we'll catch up with you at a later point.
53:03
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for giving voice to creativity you're doing great work.
53:07
SPEAKER_00: Well thanks so much my pleasure I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Ginger she had a ton of insights and wisdom to share and I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did.
53:21
SPEAKER_00: Here are my three biggest takeaways from our interview number one get clear on what you want in life ginger talked about this concept of stepping into your creative authority and that is such a key concept for so many creatives and artists and here's why it's because I see a lot of creative types who are just kind of passively existing in their lives.
53:45
SPEAKER_00: Now I don't mean to sound critical or negative by any stretch but I am committed on this podcast to speaking the truth as I see it and as I perceive it.
53:53
SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the things that I simply see is that a lot of highly gifted people who are wonderful artists I mean they're just they have talent you know to spare in buckets but a lot of those same people are just kind of passively bouncing from thing to thing.
54:10
SPEAKER_00: There's no direction that they have in their life they just are sort of existing and they're waiting for somebody to magically hand them some type of roadmap for their life.
54:19
SPEAKER_00: But I've got to be honest with you it's probably not going to happen.
54:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean short of you hearing God's audible voice to give you very clear step-by-step you know directions in your life which probably is not going to happen unless you're Moses or somebody then it's up to you to to really come up with your direction in life and to decide what your next steps are going to be.
54:41
SPEAKER_00: And most of all to figure out what you're called to do and what you want out of your life.
54:45
SPEAKER_00: So this issue of being passive and and not taking the reins of your life and just sort of hoping that some direction magically appears, it's probably not going to happen.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: And what happens is that those of us who are gifted particularly those of us who are introverts we tend to go inside and we tend to let everybody else determine what it is that we're doing in life.
55:08
SPEAKER_00: So in other words we can very easily be influenced by what other people say that our six that our success should look like we see other people's goals we see the things that they're succeeding at and we think oh that's what I should want.
55:21
SPEAKER_00: When maybe that's not what we really truly want at all.
55:24
SPEAKER_00: So I want to really encourage you with this to get clear on what you want in life.
55:30
SPEAKER_00: To think about what what it is that your goals are and what you're running toward.
55:34
SPEAKER_00: Ginger mentioned that you can be self-suppressing or you can be self-liberating.
55:39
SPEAKER_00: So the good news is that if we are self-suppressing then we also have the power to be self-liberating and this is not leaving God out of the picture at all.
55:48
SPEAKER_00: In fact it's just the opposite it's asking God to give us the strength and the wisdom and the insights in the community to help us to define our direction and to get clear on what it is that we want in life.
55:59
SPEAKER_00: Okay let's go into takeaway number two as you can tell I'm I'm very passionate about number one particularly because it's something I have wrestled with as well quite a bit the last few years in my life.
56:10
SPEAKER_00: But we'll save um some more information about that for another time.
56:13
SPEAKER_00: So let's go on to takeaway number two your day job is not your enemy we talked about this concept of being an entrepreneur in your day job.
56:23
SPEAKER_00: Let me share with you what I have done.
56:25
SPEAKER_00: This has worked really well in my setting I'm not saying this is going to be the same thing in your setting but I'll tell you what I have done.
56:32
SPEAKER_00: So I think most of you know if you've listened to this podcast any length of time, you know that I'm a professor at a Christian college.
56:39
SPEAKER_00: I teach at a small school in North St.
56:41
SPEAKER_00: Louis called St.
56:42
SPEAKER_00: Louis Christian College and for many years I was the director of our worship program so I taught classes related to music and worship and worship technology and topics related to to all that stuff.
56:54
SPEAKER_00: Well then a few years ago I began to make a transition into teaching more courses that were related to things like storytelling and film and self-publishing and blogging and podcasting and those kinds of things.
57:06
SPEAKER_00: But that wasn't an accident.
57:08
SPEAKER_00: That was all very intentional on my part there were a number of reasons for that but the bottom line is that I was honestly getting kind of bored in what I had been teaching for a decade and I I wanted some new challenges and some new things that would interest me.
57:22
SPEAKER_00: So instead of just passively sort of accepting my role I took initiative and I went to various people here in my organization and particularly in the academic sec section of our school and I said hey can I maybe teach some new classes and they said sure.
57:41
SPEAKER_00: So I would pitch these ideas for classes and make sure that they actually added value to our students and did that a number of times and was thrilled to have the opportunity to teach those classes and still am frankly and then I've also done the same thing with you know pitching the idea of producing a podcast for my college and doing a couple other things.
58:00
SPEAKER_00: So the bottom line with all this is that you don't have to just sit passively by in your day job.
58:07
SPEAKER_00: Now I'm blessed with a day job that I really enjoy.
58:10
SPEAKER_00: I love where I work and I love the people here.
58:12
SPEAKER_00: If you have a day job that you're trying to escape from I want to encourage you not necessarily to just quit tomorrow but to find ways that you can act like an entrepreneur within your day job.
58:23
SPEAKER_00: And I guarantee you that there are things that your organization or your company needs that you can provide and that you can learn.
58:30
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they need a podcast maybe they need somebody to help with marketing or maybe they need somebody to help out with training or copywriting or website design or whatever it is.
58:40
SPEAKER_00: Those are all skills that transfer to almost any company or job or industry.
58:46
SPEAKER_00: So I want to encourage you to look around right where you are at the opportunities right in front of you.
58:52
SPEAKER_00: And maybe you don't need to escape from your day job maybe you just need to to open your eyes to what's right in front of you so that you can have some cool opportunities to develop your business skills that would be transferable to a lot of different settings.
59:04
SPEAKER_00: At the same time it would also add value to your current organization.
59:07
SPEAKER_00: So in the end everybody wins in that kind of a situation which is pretty cool.
59:11
SPEAKER_00: Okay let's go on to number three then we'll start to wrap up here.
59:14
SPEAKER_00: Takeaway number three is to be creative every day, take tiny steps.
59:20
SPEAKER_00: Ginger used the phrase dream big but take tiny, tiny steps and that is so genius.
59:28
SPEAKER_00: It's so simple but it's so vital and genius because what we tend to do in our creative lives is we have these big goals and plans and dreams but we easily get discouraged because we think oh I can't achieve that all at once.
59:41
SPEAKER_00: I don't know about you but I struggle really bad sometimes with being impatient.
59:46
SPEAKER_00: I want everything right now you know I have these goals and plans and dreams and I want it all right this very second.
59:52
SPEAKER_00: But it life but life doesn't happen that way.
59:54
SPEAKER_00: Things take time particularly if you're creating or building something that may take a number of years to produce so the key in this is taking tiny steps every day.
1:00:04
SPEAKER_00: For example if you write one page every day just a couple hundred words at the end of a year you're gonna have a book.
1:00:11
SPEAKER_00: In fact you'll have more than a a full-length book.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_00: So the the idea here is to create a framework and a habit for it to happen.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_00: Every single day you have an opportunity to get a little bit more done and to make progress toward your goals and your desires and your dreams.
1:00:29
SPEAKER_00: So take the bull by the horns, be assertive it doesn't mean we have to be a jerk or be overly aggressive or be the person who dominates everything.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_00: My guess would be that the vast majority of people listening to this podcast don't fall into that category anyway.
1:00:44
SPEAKER_00: Artists typically are not the kind of people who are going to be overly dominant and crazy assertive and in that kind of personality.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_00: What we do tend to struggle with on the other hand is sometimes we're just simply too passive.
1:00:57
SPEAKER_00: So I hope that this episode has impacted you.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_00: I hope that what Ginger had to share has has really given you some things to think about.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_00: I know it definitely has for me.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_00: So those are my thoughts but I would love to hear what you think about this episode.
1:01:12
SPEAKER_00: There's a couple ways you can do that.
1:01:13
SPEAKER_00: The best way is to go to KentSanders.net slash zero nine four and leave a comment on this episode right there on my blog.
1:01:22
SPEAKER_00: And when you go to that page you'll also find the show notes and all the links.
1:01:26
SPEAKER_00: Likewise you can head over to Apple Podcasts and leave a rating and a review for the show which I really sincerely appreciate.
1:01:33
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I say that every episode and I I guess I do.
1:01:36
SPEAKER_00: But I'm just being bluntly honest with you those writings and reviews are really really valuable.
1:01:41
SPEAKER_00: So it only takes a couple seconds so I really want to encourage you to do that because it lets me know what you think of the show and it also helps other people to discover it.
1:01:50
SPEAKER_00: I want to thank Ginger for taking the time out of her really busy schedule to share in this amazing conversation and if you enjoyed what she had to share please let her know by sending her a message on Twitter at ginger moran and the way you spell her last name is M-O-R-A-N.
1:02:08
SPEAKER_00: Finally thank you for listening to this episode I really appreciate your support and I recognize you could be doing a lot of other things with your time but it it just really means a lot that you've taken the time to listen to this episode, so thank you.
1:02:21
SPEAKER_00: Make sure to check out my free ultimate toolkit for creative entrepreneurs which is packed with 24 amazing resources to help you write and self-publish your book, unlock your creative genius, grow your business and become more productive you can find that at KentSanders.net slash toolkit well hey before we make the exit on this episode I want to leave you with this quote from my favorite artist of all time who is of course Leonardo da Vinci he said one can have no smaller or greater mastery than mastery of oneself.
1:02:56
SPEAKER_00: Until next time remember that you were born to create and designed to make a difference.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_00: Now go create something awesome today