Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / The (X) Hamster Files - Shadows (featuring Agent Frazer Gregory)

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The (X) Hamster Files - Shadows (featuring Agent Frazer Gregory) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:25
None. Hello, Agent Gregory, How are
0:34
you today? That's a Special Agent Gregory
0:36
to you. Thank you very much.
0:38
So sorry, yes, fresh out of Quantico I believe.
0:41
I am yes, yes, pick of the assignments.
0:43
So here I am with the. What is it the?
0:46
Is it the H files we're doing or is it the something else?
0:49
The xhamster files. The xhamster files.
0:51
I'll suggest everyone googles that as well.
0:55
Oh. You know what xhamster is,
0:57
right? No.
0:59
It's a porn site, that's the whole point.
1:02
That's what I'm calling the xhamster files X hamsterism,
1:08
particularly X-rated. I know, right?
1:10
But there's a porn site with hamster in the time.
1:13
What are the chances of that happening?
1:14
A show called The X-Files. It was meant to be.
1:19
Yeah, it all makes sense now. Yes.
1:20
Hello, Chu, How are you? Yeah.
1:22
Good, now we've settled that. I mean, I'm sure everyone else
1:24
got the joke in the first episode, but you know, obviously
1:28
you're you're not Privy to those sorts of things and the better
1:32
human being for it. So can I ask you please, now The
1:37
X-Files. Now, you may had a conversation
1:40
some while back for that the Patreon about The X-Files of
1:43
which you had no knowledge whatsoever.
1:46
It turned to be quite an education for you.
1:48
Yeah, yeah. And we'll have to have some
1:50
knowledge. I did watch The X-Files back in
1:55
the day, which was, according to my Google, 1994, when BBC Two
2:00
showed the first series. So I watched all of that, a
2:07
little bit of the second series, and then I think I just tealed
2:12
off after that. Why is that?
2:15
I don't know. To be honest, got really good.
2:17
Well, I thought I didn't really enjoyed the first series and I
2:22
remember starting to watch the second one and I don't know if
2:24
it was just I do remember some of the the stories being a
2:29
little bit too grim a little. You know, it was it did feel
2:34
like there was a step up in the sort of body horror and and you
2:37
know, I'm just trying to say it went too dark, which is a common
2:41
complete of things. And I do remember thinking that,
2:44
but I don't think that was enough to put us off.
2:46
I don't know if I just got sidetracked with other things
2:50
or, you know, I would have been 15 and 95 and, you know, 96
2:56
probably when I started drinking more.
2:58
So I don't know if, you know, I was going out more than standing
3:02
and watching telly or I don't know if it was the the Ark, you
3:07
know, because I think at that sort of time, you know, arcs
3:10
weren't as as big as they were. So I don't know if I just got a
3:13
little bit bored with the arc and just thought, you know what
3:15
this is, this is long and complicated and and not going
3:18
anywhere. Fuck this.
3:19
I'm going to go and watch Babylon 5 instead.
3:21
Oh. Boy, oh boy.
3:24
I mean, in terms of production values, we're in different
3:26
universes. I mean, yeah, one has got much
3:29
better haircuts than the other, so.
3:31
Actually in season 1 of the Exiles I might agree with you
3:34
actually. But I, I don't know as well
3:37
because obviously Sky showed it and then the BBC showed it.
3:40
So I've, I've got some sort of nagging memory that the BBC
3:44
might have stopped showing it at some point and it just went on
3:47
the sky. And obviously I didn't have Sky
3:49
at that point. So I don't know if I just fell
3:51
out the loop of watching it. And like I said, I came back for
3:54
the odd episode now and again, you know, there was I think
3:56
there was a there's like a black and white one, which, you know,
4:00
when I did have Sky, though, I'll go and watch that because
4:03
it was it was sort of talked about.
4:05
There was a buzz about, you know, certain episodes like
4:08
there's a as a war. It was a black and white.
4:13
Was the one with Frankenstein monster something or it's got a
4:17
share in it or something? Most modern Prometheus that was
4:22
called. It's absolutely insane that
4:24
episode. So the the ones that you know, I
4:26
had a bit of buzz about them, I would go back and watch.
4:28
But for the most part, it just it's got a bit potentially just
4:33
got a bit samy. You know, it's, it's the monster
4:35
of the week and it's, it's aliens and it's a conspiracy and
4:40
strange man and car parks. You might be a bit disappointed
4:43
with that journey then. Not much has changed in 30
4:45
years. I mean, I do have a question for
4:47
you then. I'm shocked and surprised, I
4:49
know. Well, you know, I love how you
4:52
so enthusiastically sort of plunge head first into my ever
4:57
puckering projects, especially when they're sort of kick
5:01
starting. What's made you want to be
5:04
involved with this then, if it was a show that you abandoned?
5:07
And just to give it that reappraisal, really just to go
5:10
back and say, well, you know, this is some like I said, I
5:13
really enjoyed it. You know, if I go back and throw
5:16
myself back in with am I still going to enjoy it?
5:19
You know, will I, you know, 1415 year old me is a completely
5:24
different beast than 45 year old me.
5:27
So you know, am I, you know, 30 years down the line able to give
5:31
this a better reappraisal? Is this something that stands
5:34
the test of time like the way that Babylon 5 has or you know,
5:39
am I going to feel exactly the same or are we going to you
5:41
know, get into series 2 and I'm just going to be like, this was
5:44
a stretch. You know, this is a drag.
5:46
You know, more than anything it's just you know, is part of
5:51
going back and and reappraising, you know, re enjoying something
5:54
that I did enjoy when I was when I was, well, not a nipper, but
6:00
you know, teenager. So yeah, bring it on.
6:03
Let's get stuck in. I mean, I figured at some point
6:05
in this episode today, as usual, you would say something that was
6:09
pure insanity. To suggest that Babylon 5 has
6:12
stood the test of time is. Yeah, you what?
6:15
You, dear you. A bold statement indeed.
6:19
You go watch some of the CGI that Marvel putting out at the
6:21
minute and you go and watch Babylon 5.
6:23
You go and watch episode 2 of Star Wars The Tuck of the Clones
6:26
and Babylon 5 special effects stand up a lot better than 5.
6:30
Looks like it's been made with crayons because.
6:34
It was made by crayons. What's?
6:36
The point? It was made by crayons.
6:38
Really, well, really good crayons.
6:41
I'll start that bloody Hammerlon project all right, if you stop
6:44
banging on about that bloody show JMS for the whim.
6:50
Are you happy? Yes, Ian, I am happy.
6:54
Well, so we are starting today with so you know, you're down to
6:58
do sort of like four or five episodes a year, which is very
7:02
exciting, which means I get to sort of pick and choose some
7:05
really good, I know. But like, now I sort of know
7:08
where your issues were. I'll try and direct you towards
7:11
episodes that I think you might enjoy and then occasionally
7:15
episodes where it leans into the stuff as to why you abandoned
7:18
it. So we can sort of explore the
7:20
gamut. And if you haven't done anything
7:22
past Series 2 and I've got some gems, I can throw you away,
7:26
which would be wonderful. But we're starting with Shadows,
7:30
Shadows by Glenn Morgan and James Wong.
7:33
Now, they've already written the first Mr. Toombs episode,
7:37
Squeeze, which went down a storm with me and Joe and Morris.
7:42
This is their second one. Now they're sort of getting a
7:44
bit of a name for themselves as the sort of monster of the week,
7:49
sort of the best monster of the week writers.
7:53
I don't know if you remember the episode Ice.
7:54
You know, the one where they do the thing from another world on
7:57
the Arctic base and Felicity Huffman from Death Row
8:00
Housewives goes around trying to murder everybody.
8:03
Oh, OK. That's one of the most popular
8:05
episodes of the first season. Oh, maybe we'll do that one next
8:07
then. Fraser, I think you'll like that
8:09
one. Well, how did you find shadows?
8:13
What are your opening thoughts on this one?
8:16
This is where I get sacked from the podcast because.
8:20
To be honest. Oh, it was cringe.
8:23
It was absolute cringe. Go on, tell me what?
8:26
Honest. Well, so obviously you you gave
8:29
me a list. You gave me a list.
8:30
I think I've got four or five on a post it note in me cart.
8:33
And this was the first one. So I thought, you know, what I'm
8:36
going to do is I'm I know it's kind of the sixth one in, you
8:39
know, so the temptation there was to say, well, I'll start at
8:41
the beginning and I'll work my way, you know, an easy watch the
8:45
first set. But no, what I'm going to do is
8:46
I want to go in absolutely called into this.
8:49
I want to just watch that first episode, not having not watched
8:53
X-Files in, you know, 20 years. Or whatever.
8:55
You didn't do the lead up, then you didn't watch any others.
8:58
No, no, I just went, I just went straight into this in the 1st 5
9:02
minutes. I was just Oh my word, this is
9:04
so cliched. This is so trophy.
9:07
This is just embarrassing. I mean the come in.
9:11
So you have the the opening scene where the come in the the
9:16
the Mortuary and yeah, the the stood there in this in the power
9:20
suits. Oh man, that scene.
9:23
Oh, so poor faced, you know. Stony faced intelligence agents
9:28
there that just have no flicker of emotions on their face
9:31
whatsoever. Yeah.
9:33
And then they've got the other from the other agency as well,
9:35
doing exactly the same. And Motor and Scarlett doing the
9:39
same, yes. They're screwing off and it's
9:41
just. Like oh someone please emote in
9:43
this scene. Yeah, and they're all getting
9:45
crossed with each other because they're not telling each other
9:47
each other secrets. And it's all and you've got this
9:50
sort of like music going on in the background was just like,
9:53
oh, come on, this. Better get used to that music,
9:56
all right? Mark Snow never leaves the show.
10:00
It was like, Oh my God, this is the music throughout the entire
10:04
episode was just like, oh, you know, you can just imagine
10:06
little Murray Gold sitting there with these with these little
10:09
notepad going to take the notes going, OK, so if I wanted a big
10:12
spooky, I need to really turn it up and I want to tell them what
10:15
to think, you know, But yeah, just that first opening, I was
10:19
just kind of like, you know, and then they come out and then in
10:22
the corridor and, you know, Dukovny's leaning right into
10:25
Anderson and being all sort of stoic and mysterious.
10:29
And it was just say, Oh my word, why did I ever enjoy this?
10:33
And I had to really come away from from watching the episode
10:38
the first time and, and just really try and divorce myself
10:43
from, you know, the fact that I'm 30 years down the line and
10:49
so much has come past this because and try and put myself
10:54
back into the 1994 main set of, you know, this was actually
10:57
quite different at the time, you know?
11:00
Yeah, and just, you know, have a word with something actually.
11:04
Especially in the UK. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
11:07
I mean, you know. Have you go and watch what was
11:10
being produced in the UK in the 90s?
11:13
And this is pretty stylish stuff.
11:17
I mean it looks quite cheap now, but.
11:20
Because TV is cinema now. Well, it's not cinema in the.
11:24
90s This is the thing, isn't it? It's got a very sort of 90s look
11:28
to it's like when you go back and you watch the the Doctor Who
11:31
TV movie with Paul McGann again and you you have those open
11:33
accredits. You think, Oh my God, this is so
11:35
90s. This is it's just got that sort
11:37
of Sheen of 19 us to it. You remember.
11:40
Daphne and that coat. She is Gillian Anderson in ATV
11:44
movie. Yeah.
11:45
And it's, you know, obviously I was watching on Disney Plus in
11:48
HD and wide screen and obviously it was never made in HD and it
11:51
was never made in white screen. So you're kind of not getting
11:55
getting sort of the full the full experience there.
11:58
It's better on prime if you have it.
12:00
Oh yes, I've got. Aspect ratio is much better on
12:02
prime. Right, I'm going to start
12:03
watching them on Prime again because you know, it's.
12:06
It's wide screen. This was in wide screen on
12:09
Disney. Yeah.
12:10
Why would they do that? Because they do.
12:12
Because everything's in way that that's.
12:14
Crazy, do you don't. Remember the the kickoff they
12:16
have them. Stretching something that wasn't
12:18
shot in that way, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
12:20
But they had the kickoff with The Simpsons.
12:23
Do you remember? Oh, did I do the same thing?
12:25
They said the same thing with The Simpsons.
12:27
So obviously a lot of Simpsons gags are visual, so when they've
12:29
stretched it, they've missed out a lot of stuff.
12:31
So you've now got the option on Disney Plus.
12:33
You can go into this. If you go into The Simpsons, you
12:35
can go into settings and you can change it to the original aspect
12:38
ratio. Just that show just for this.
12:40
Well, obviously the part, the kind of I'm.
12:43
Wondering then, Fraser, if maybe your opinions won't be valid in
12:46
this episode. Now if you've watched this in
12:47
wide screen, go on. I will say though.
12:52
Disney. As the episode went on, I
12:55
started warm into it a lot when I sort of getting into the
12:58
groove and started thinking, yeah, actually, come on, let's
13:00
let's think about this rationale.
13:02
The only reason that opening scene you're thinking as a as a
13:05
cliche is because, you know, cliches have to start somewhere.
13:09
And this is where they started from, you know?
13:11
So this is this is where it kind of kicks off.
13:15
So was the. First time they do ghosts in the
13:19
yes, yes, they would go on to do ghosts again and again and again
13:24
and production techniques improve and writing techniques
13:28
improve. Yes, and fuck me, like the thing
13:31
that really stood out for me and it's just you're right is how
13:34
hackneyed yes, so much of this is, you know, the woman who's
13:39
close to her boss, the boss has just died.
13:43
The the new boss was responsible for the old boss's death.
13:48
She's sort of trapped in the job or he's trying to trap her in
13:51
the job and then the boss is now a ghost taking revenge on all
13:57
the people. I was like oh boy oh boy, was
14:00
even TV this hackneyed in the 90s?
14:04
Also, what you need to remember is four years or four or five
14:09
years after this comes Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which you know,
14:15
specializes in in the supernatural and the paranormal
14:19
and absolutely does, you know, wonderful interesting things
14:24
with it. If you think of if you don't
14:26
wear this episode, this would be a very bog standard Buffy the
14:30
Vampire Slayer episode. So that really doesn't help it
14:33
when you have got the benefit of, again, shows which have been
14:39
sort of spun or spawned from The X-Files, You know, which I kind
14:44
of like standing on the shoulders of giants is that
14:46
we're, you know, using The X-Files success to to do their
14:49
own thing, doing it better. Buffy.
14:51
Lots of these cliches though. Oh yeah, yeah.
14:54
And take the piss out of them. This is so serious and so.
14:59
You. You almost think they're trying
15:00
to take the piss and then you realise, Oh no wait, they're
15:03
taking this very seriously. And you, you would have, you
15:05
would have said, I'm sure I've got a, you know, beating the
15:07
shit out of something rather than ghostiness.
15:12
Interesting, though, because people say that sort of Buffy
15:15
came in and redefined genre television by introducing that
15:19
enormous sort of postmodern comedy.
15:22
Yeah, but actually The X-Files did that years before Buffy,
15:26
because I'm going to give you Humbug in Series 2, which is the
15:29
first Darren Morgan episode set in the circus.
15:32
And it's doing Buffy way before Buffy gags, jokes.
15:36
It's it's ripping at The X-Files.
15:38
And I'm going to give you a comedy in Series 3 as well,
15:40
because I really want you to see how they very quickly realise
15:44
what their own cliches are and, and how you sort of turn that
15:47
around. But I think you have to.
15:50
You have to make your cliches first, or you can subvert them.
15:54
Well, this is it. You know, Buffy has got, you
15:56
know, the thing about Buffy is it's that central concept is
16:00
that, you know, the, the person that fights the vampires, that
16:04
fights the evil is not the, the strapping, you know, Arnold
16:08
Schwarzenegger type, you know, character, the the square Jord
16:12
hero. It is the the valley girl, you
16:15
know, it's it's the ditzy blonde.
16:17
And that's that's always been the key subversion there.
16:20
Sort of in order to have that subversion, it's got to be set
16:23
up quite a while before, you know, The X-Files really has got
16:26
nothing to subvert. You know this is, you know this,
16:30
this it's a. Procedural isn't it?
16:32
It's literally done as a police procedural at the start.
16:35
Yeah, absolutely. And if we've ghosts, you can see
16:38
a lot of that in this episode because it's it's interesting
16:42
that the where you would normally expect this plot to
16:45
end. And this is one of the the
16:47
benefit, the bonuses of this episode where you'd normally
16:49
expect this plot to end, which is where what's the what's the
16:53
last? Isn't Lauren Kate?
16:54
Isn't it where that that character gets attacked in a
16:58
home by the people who've killed her boss?
17:00
That's where you kind of. I thought that this time as
17:03
well. I thought that was the last set.
17:05
Piece. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:06
But it's not. Oh no, wait.
17:07
There's another 15 minutes. There's another 15 minutes where
17:10
we've got to wrap up the sort of the, not the supernatural, but
17:15
the natural part of the storm. We've got to kind of crack the
17:19
case and I think. Yeah.
17:21
Yeah, yeah, it's it leads to this really interesting line
17:27
that Scully gets where she's, you know, they're trying to
17:32
convince blowing the talk and open up and, you know, she, you
17:36
know, lets them know. Well, actually, there were.
17:37
There were. The company was in financial
17:40
straits at the start, selling parts to the terrorists, you
17:44
know, just to keep the company going.
17:45
And, you know, everyone knew about it this and it was
17:48
terrible thing to do. But, you know, we had jobs to
17:50
save and people to pay and, you know, mouths to feed, that sort
17:53
of thing. And, you know, she's not open
17:57
up. And Scully is the one that kind
17:59
of says, well, you know, you know, encourages that.
18:02
Well, yeah, your boss is a ghost, but, you know, we'll sort
18:04
all that out. And mother says you don't
18:05
believe Scully, just like, no, but she believes.
18:09
And I need to get a result here. I believe that she believes.
18:12
I believe that she believes. I think that's probably the best
18:15
scene in the episode. Yeah, and it's it's it's not
18:18
because of any other reason than Scully needs a result.
18:22
Scully, the agent needs to close this case.
18:25
They obviously working with whatever other shady, you know,
18:31
government agency is. They need to to get a result to
18:34
put someone in prison. The ghost by the by for her.
18:38
It's just that, yeah, we need to, we need to crack this one.
18:40
So I'm going to say whatever I need to see it there to get.
18:44
And that's a really interesting side of Scully.
18:48
You know which? We haven't seen, obviously, I've
18:50
done this in order. We haven't really seen so far to
18:53
this point where she's willing to lean in and pretend to agree
18:58
with the theory of the week in order to convince whoever
19:02
they're dealing with. So it's a good new angle.
19:05
And I like the fact that mold is like, what the hell?
19:08
I don't believe in any of this. Yeah.
19:10
Because it's, it's funny because that was always the angle.
19:13
I don't remember that from, from back in the day.
19:15
It was always the angle of, you know, you've got the believer,
19:18
then you've got the sceptic. And I don't think that always,
19:21
you know, work that as well as the code.
19:24
I should, I think is there's there's probably a few a few
19:28
angles in this one that could have, you know, explored a lot
19:30
better. Let you see it is quite triad.
19:34
It's quite. It's episode 6, it's worth
19:36
remembering it as well. You know, go and watch episode 6
19:40
of Babylon 5 and tell me if they've made it, if they've
19:44
fixed on their tone at that point.
19:46
The problem is in episode 6 of Babylon 5, there'll be something
19:48
that gets paid off in episode 6 of series 3 of Babylon 5 that
19:52
you. Haven't.
19:52
That's why it's so tedious. Jesus Christ.
19:55
I mean, this truly is like this truly is the time of the stand
20:00
alone episode, right? And I know the Exiles juggles
20:03
both stand alone and a running story.
20:06
I always prefer the stand alone episodes because I just like
20:09
something to have a beginning, a middle, and an end and to be
20:13
something in its own right. Now, this does have a beginning,
20:16
a middle, and an end, but like, you're so in on the concept so
20:21
early. It's so easy to figure out what
20:23
is going on yourself. And so you're just waiting for
20:26
Mother and Scully to catch up. Yeah.
20:28
And I think it's it's one of the things I liked about it was
20:31
obviously we'll have this about halfway through.
20:33
It's kind of like this, this big reveal that we all know that
20:35
it's the ghost of Howard Graves. That is, you know, saving that
20:42
is protecting Lauren for for whatever reason, I think that is
20:46
a bit missing. You know, why is why is he so
20:48
protective of Lauren? You know, are they secret
20:51
lovers? Are they, you know that, that,
20:55
that I think if this was made today, that would probably be an
20:58
angle that was a lot more. I think the idea is that it's
21:02
paternal, isn't it? I think that's that's what they
21:04
go for because there's never a suggestion of anything romantic.
21:07
And then when when the. There's Elaine.
21:09
Isn't it the? Boss comes in, tries to grab
21:12
hold of her in a sort of suggestive way.
21:15
Howard Graves is straight there and pushing him back.
21:18
Because there's there's there's the kind of, you know, obviously
21:21
he lost his daughter through an accident when she was very
21:24
young. So it's this hints there, you
21:27
know, which I think could have been a little bit more
21:29
developed. And next, it's series.
21:32
It's episode 6 of series 1. And anyhow, I was going with
21:35
this. I've forgotten what we're
21:37
talking about before that. Lauren, her relationship with
21:42
Howard. Oh, yes, yeah.
21:45
Because there's, I really like the bit in the middle where, you
21:49
know, we figured it out. We figured it out from, you
21:51
know, 3 minutes in or whatever. And they've got that picture
21:56
which, you know, 1980s nineteen 94 technology can somehow
22:00
enhance to the face of Howard Graves object.
22:05
So then it's like what I really liked was not it wasn't just
22:08
like we'll take this as an assumption was like, right,
22:10
Howard Graves is alive. Let's go prove he's not.
22:13
Then it's Mulder that's leading that Mulder's now the skeptic.
22:16
He's like, right, OK, let's, let's say you're right, I think
22:21
he's a ghost. But let's prove your theory or
22:23
let's prove, disprove your theory.
22:25
It's classic. It's proof by contradiction.
22:27
It's what it's what we're doing in maths and science all the
22:30
time is you know, you, you have a concept and you go out to
22:32
prove it by proving something that's, you know, if this is
22:35
true, then this is true as well. And that can't be true.
22:38
So that can't be true. So he's the one that's saying,
22:41
right. Well, we'll go to the the
22:44
pathologist and we'll double check that this guy is
22:46
definitely dead. Howard Graves is very dead.
22:54
Just probably the second best lane in there.
22:56
All of these guest characters, man, they were so pony my my
22:59
favorite was the dreadful guy that tends to grave.
23:03
Oh, I. Know it's like hello, like yeah,
23:07
he was saying them all last. Journeys.
23:12
Oh is that Where the fuck did they drag that actor from?
23:16
So funny. The pathologist was great.
23:18
Is that how? How did you know it was Howard?
23:20
Green, You know who that is? Oh, CCH Pounder.
23:24
She is one of the most used actresses in American television
23:29
of the time. She's in the episode Dwayne
23:31
Barry in Series 2. That's the one where Scully gets
23:36
kidnapped by the aliens and she is the woman leading the
23:40
investigation and she's fantastic in that episode.
23:44
But here, talk about fucking deadpan.
23:47
You're right, Howard Green is very dead.
23:52
She goes how? Did you know what I said?
23:55
Well, it said so on the toe tag. Yeah, she's very fat.
23:58
I'd like, and I will say Morgan and Wong, they do pepper in some
24:03
jokes and and they and culture references as well like Buffy
24:06
does. And I did appreciate that when
24:08
Scully went. They're here in direct reference
24:12
to Poltergeist. Yeah, but it's a bit strange
24:14
because the episode 2 previous to this was called Conduit,
24:18
which had a child pointing at static in a television and and
24:23
no one made the link in that one.
24:25
She mentions Carrie as well, doesn't she?
24:26
Sure, sure, there's. No, Carrie.
24:29
The prom. Your telekinesis.
24:30
Oh, and what about Mulder going down the stairs?
24:32
There's only one person who's successfully been able to, you
24:35
know, disappear. Elvis, he goes.
24:38
So there's some gags there. Is there is and I think it's
24:42
it's nice I think they are because we're 6 episodes in now
24:45
they are starting to, you know, build that up.
24:50
The thing I was kind of conscious of the second time I
24:52
came back to watch this just before we recorded last night
24:56
was, you know, it does seem like they are quite leaning into now
25:00
the the will they want me between Mulder and Scully.
25:03
The kind of, I think it feels as if they're starting to realize
25:08
that the, you know, they've got this chemistry, Anderson and.
25:17
It's definitely there isn't. It yeah.
25:19
And you know, they're going to stop doing a bit, will they,
25:23
won't they with that which, you know, it doesn't always work.
25:25
It's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a good thing
25:31
in a way because you know, it gets your viewers and it gets
25:33
you people. I think that I think shippers
25:38
came from The X-Files. But ultimately it is, you know,
25:42
quite unsustainable in the long run of them.
25:44
Or no, eventually they will. It takes a long time.
25:47
Yeah, I think there's I think it's probably only friends
25:49
that's ever managed to do that. Will they won't they in do it,
25:53
you know, successfully the great got it out the way quite early
25:55
on and went back to something a bit a bit more normal and.
25:59
Because they have to have a professional relationship as
26:02
well. So it's it's sort of degrees of
26:05
will they, won't they, depending on whether it's a personal sort
26:08
of episode or whether it's a professional episode.
26:11
Yeah, but I think as well that, you know, that that whole, you
26:16
know, Scully, you know, lightening up a little bit and
26:19
sort of mocking Molder that that kind of that's a nice sort of
26:23
development of her character as well as, you know, she is.
26:26
Yeah. For we're seeing that she's
26:27
quite, you know, the age and she's quite, you know, focused
26:32
on the task at hand. You know, she has got a bit of a
26:35
fun side about her now. She is.
26:37
She know she will. It's a bit sort of like Manning
26:40
and Pertway, isn't it? You know, yeah, you're the boss.
26:42
But you know, I'm going to. I'm going to take the piss out
26:44
of you. But like, there's some weight in
26:47
the script, but man, I wish there was some lightness in the
26:49
tone. I wish there was some energy in
26:53
the structuring of this. Like it is literally going from
26:56
A to B to C to D with a lot of sort of leaden characters.
27:02
And I, I do quite like Lauren. Well, I know it's weird.
27:06
I I find her like endearingly vulnerable and incredibly
27:11
annoying. It's a weird mix from scene to
27:15
scene. I was like, oh, I really feel
27:16
for you. And other scenes I was like, oh
27:18
shut up. One thing I did take away from
27:21
the episode that I really liked is that they went for cause one
27:26
thing I've noticed about The X-Files, certainly at the start,
27:29
is they want to do paranormal. They want to do science fiction,
27:34
but yeah, tentatively, they still frame it as a police
27:38
procedural. Yeah.
27:39
And they don't throw too much. That's weird.
27:44
And out there at you in one go. Certainly not yet anyway.
27:47
Yeah, they. They sort of want to get you on
27:49
board. So I did like the very simple
27:53
special effects that they used throughout this episode.
27:56
I liked the blood pellet in the bath.
27:58
Yeah, I liked the wind whipping up in the office and all the
28:03
paper flying around. I like the judicious use of CCSO
28:08
as the woman was pulled up in the air and her throat was
28:11
crushed. And I thought the special
28:13
effects on the whole looked quite good because they weren't
28:17
being too ambitious. Yeah, absolutely.
28:19
I think, you know, whether that's, you know, intentional or
28:23
it's just the the budget, but it's it's again, it's it's kind
28:28
of that 19 90s vibe to wit of, you know, a lot.
28:33
We all do as much practical as we can, but we have got the
28:35
money to spend on on CGI, which is, you know, still in its
28:38
infancy really, and we've got nothing, no any and like we're
28:41
going to get, you know, in the next series, even even Babylon
28:44
5, which is great made occurrence and but.
28:47
I wonder, though, you know, you say that and I'm not.
28:50
This is not just a dig at Babylon 5, but I think things
28:54
get to CGI heavy. And I don't just mean that, I
28:57
mean, I mean Star Trek, I mean Doctor Who.
29:00
I mean genre and, and practical effects kind of fall to the
29:05
wayside in favour of CGI and mana, man, The more I see
29:09
practical effects now in old TV, the more I'm like, there's just
29:13
something tangible. There's something you can get
29:15
hold of him. A practical effect.
29:16
Yeah, absolutely. Whereas I'm just very aware I'm
29:19
watching a load of fake pretty images when I'm watching CGI.
29:22
Yeah, it's, it's, I think that Marvel is is probably the best
29:26
example of that, where you've got so much CGI in a Marvel
29:31
movie that it becomes, you know, predictable.
29:33
You know what's going to happen at the end of the Marvel movie,
29:35
you know that there is going to be some big threat that comes
29:39
from the sky that needs to be defeated by our our heroes.
29:44
You look at the films of, say, Christopher Nolan, and
29:47
especially look at The Dark Knight, which, you know, it's a
29:51
tremendous film. And the scene that always sticks
29:53
out is the one where Batman flips the articulated lorry.
29:57
You know, he weaves in and out with the rope and this lorry
30:01
does A-150 flip with the Joker inside it.
30:05
And that was done as a vis a proper effect.
30:07
You know, it went out and they actually, you know.
30:12
You can just tell, can't you? I I found The Force Awakens
30:17
really refreshing because there is a lot of CGI in it, but
30:21
there's a preference for practical effects like the first
30:24
Star Wars movie. That just meant it just felt
30:27
like characters were genuinely doing things.
30:30
I think you know, when you get the balance rate, when you look
30:32
at something like, oh man, what's the latest episode of
30:38
Doctor Who with the one? What's it called man lucky day,
30:43
lucky day, which is, you know, a very earth based story, which
30:46
has just got the you know, and yet with it leans into it
30:49
because, you know, part of the shriek are the idea is that they
30:53
are just men dressed in suits. You can you can do that.
30:55
And I think but you know, up until that point, you don't kind
30:58
of look and go. That's clearly about in a suit.
31:00
You're you're you're it's what long.
31:02
So there is that scope and I think you know the.
31:04
Exiles never gets there though. Fraser, the Exiles never really.
31:08
And aside from the movie, yeah, it never really goes down that
31:12
we're going to throw a load of science fiction special effects
31:14
at you. And I think that might be the
31:16
key to its success with the general public.
31:19
Because I think at the same time, you know, you are clearly
31:21
seeing money on the screen. You know, you have that sort of
31:24
wibbly wobbly effect for Howard the Ghost and.
31:29
Predator, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.
31:31
It's, it's that same sort of effect.
31:33
You know, you obviously you have people throwing around and you
31:35
have like wind machines and everything.
31:36
You are seeing the the money on the screen.
31:39
And, you know, thinking back to where we were as Doctor Who fans
31:42
in 1994, you know, we're watching this thinking, my God,
31:45
imagine if Doctor Who was made to this standard.
31:49
Now I think Doctor Who was always his ambition, outraged.
31:53
It's the ability to realise that.
31:54
You know, we've come off the bat that's.
31:56
Why we love it. We've come off the back of sort
31:58
of 25 and 26. You know, we've had dimensions
32:01
in time and then you're watching this with a bit of envy.
32:03
And so when obviously, you know, this was very much a thing at
32:07
the time, wasn't that, you know, get an American budget for to
32:11
make Doctor Who and you know, then you'll then you'll see then
32:14
you'll see how good it can be and.
32:17
Yeah, Well, I think the big difference between this and kind
32:20
of Doctor, the last gasp of Doctor Who is this is just so
32:24
well lit, you know, and and the Americans, I do genuinely think
32:28
the Americans at the time were about.
32:31
Janet Fielding says it a lot. They're about 10 years ahead in
32:34
terms of TV production and filmic techniques and an
32:41
atmosphere. The trouble is though, unlike
32:45
the last gasp of Doctor Who, this is so fucking stayed and
32:49
serious it's less enjoyable to watch now.
32:53
They haven't all been. The first four were great, but
32:55
this was particularly serious after this episode.
33:00
I mean that I will say this about this episode.
33:03
Obviously I watched it and had a, you know, not the reaction I
33:06
was looking for, shall we say, you know, and it did make me
33:09
want to do that. It did make me want to go back
33:12
been watching them all again, you know from the start in in
33:15
order and which I didn't. I went and watched the next one
33:19
that was on me list and but that's.
33:21
So great. I really hated this.
33:23
I want to watch more. Yeah, well, yeah, because it was
33:26
kind of like, you know, and. You're a masochist.
33:30
You know, it was kind of, it must be better than this.
33:32
It must have been better than this.
33:34
It is, it was, and, and I you know what I actually think?
33:37
Jersey Devil aside, this is the weakest episode I've watched so
33:40
far. Yeah, I mean, I've so I have, I
33:43
have went, you know, I went and watched.
33:45
Well, I'm not. I just want to spoil it for the
33:47
listeners what the next one on my list was.
33:49
So I went. You.
33:50
Saying at the end of the episode, but I will.
33:52
Yeah. Come on.
33:53
Which one? Ah, space.
33:56
Witness space. The ambassadors of Death of the
33:57
90s, Yes. And then that I have went back.
34:02
So I started with a pilot and I've watched deep through it and
34:05
I watched Squeeze last night. So I'm I'm working my way back
34:08
through because I'll probably have a few more weeks before.
34:10
Squeeze those eyes. That was that was another really
34:15
interesting moment because again, it kind of ties in with,
34:18
you know what you said, this is a procedure.
34:19
So you've got again, you've got this, this idea of, you know,
34:24
the man is breaking into places because he can.
34:27
He's he's Mr. Fantastic from the Fantastic Four and he can
34:30
squeeze. There may be long a longer.
34:32
We'll never really see it. You never see him really.
34:34
There's like, there's one scene he's reaching down but you never
34:37
really see. Him Santa Claus going down the
34:38
chimney. I know in that scene.
34:40
I know you never again. It doesn't really, you know,
34:45
lean into the special effects too much.
34:46
It just makes it really clear that this guy, they.
34:48
Want that foot in reality? Yeah, they know that science
34:52
fiction is not on the rise at this point.
34:55
They make they make a very clear what's happening without
34:57
actually showing you what's happening, which is really
34:59
clever. But also they have that dynamic
35:02
between Scully and her mate from school who is now trying to get
35:06
himself up the ladder and. Oh, he's the worst, but I love
35:09
him. Yeah, because, and again, it
35:11
leads into the whole, you know, Scully's there to do a job,
35:13
molder's there for shits and giggles.
35:15
Molder's just there for, you know, oh, show us some freaky
35:18
stuff this week. I want to it's.
35:20
Fun, though all of that's more fun than the dynamics in.
35:23
This it is, but it's, it's a kind of, it needs that sort of
35:29
that grounding. Really.
35:30
It can't just be modern, Scully. Turn up every week, have a look
35:33
at something and then go off. There's got to be a little bit
35:36
more to it. There's got to be, you know, a
35:39
resolution. You've got to have Lauren, Kate
35:42
driving off into the sunsets and yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll put
35:45
this down. You know, this, this, you know,
35:48
ultimate bad guys getting done for the murder of your boss.
35:50
He's getting done for selling to the terrorists.
35:53
You know, it's a nice. You've got to have that sort of
35:56
thing. The one, the one thing I thought
35:58
was very different about this one and in its favour is that
36:04
they have a genuinely positive impact on her life by
36:08
investigating this and she gets a happy ending.
36:10
And that's not always the case in The X-Files.
36:14
And I really found it interesting how Scully came
36:18
across, because we see so much of the episode from Lauren's
36:20
point of view that she seems very cold and suspicious and a
36:25
bit nasty at places. And I quite like that.
36:29
It's. Again, they don't lean into it
36:31
too much. They don't, you know, you know,
36:34
there's that scene we talked about is it's also very
36:37
manipulative. It's I'm just going to say, tell
36:39
you what you want to hear. So you give me what I want, but
36:44
obviously, you know, Scully is, is Chloe Stalin isn't sure she
36:47
is. Yes.
36:49
You know I've never said Jodie Whittaker there.
36:55
Foster. That's the one.
36:57
Why am I so told with names this morning and Jodie Foster from?
37:00
Obsessed with Jodie Whittaker and I understand why.
37:03
I'm saying so that I'm so you know.
37:06
Jodie Whittaker from Silence of the Lands.
37:08
Yes, please. You're up here.
37:15
I'll be interested, Yes. So yes, it's it's again, you
37:22
know, shifting your mindset from now to 30 years ago.
37:25
You know, it's really obvious how much you know, Scully is
37:28
dressing as a man. You know, you know, Mulder's got
37:33
his suit. You know Scullys all you know
37:35
blows and suit and. There's no definition to her
37:37
body. It's all square shoulders,
37:40
isn't? It it's all power dressing,
37:42
isn't it? To kind of.
37:43
It don't last long. Yeah.
37:45
When the show gets successful, they're suddenly tailored.
37:48
It's the other thing that struck us was was how young they are
37:52
yes. It's you know, we're talking
37:56
about being a procedural. I know you've in previous
37:59
episodes of this podcast, you've reference to Grey's Anatomy in
38:03
terms of Criminal Minds. You want to watch Criminal
38:08
Minds. You know, Criminal Minds has got
38:10
so much of X-Files in its DNA. And if I don't know if you have
38:16
watched, I haven't. There's a character in in
38:18
Criminal Minds called Doctor Spencer Read, and that is his
38:21
name. It's Doctor Spencer Read.
38:23
He introduces himself as Doctor Spencer read all the time
38:25
because he is quite young, so he always has to, you know, he's
38:29
surrounded by, you know, the big, you know, burly, square
38:32
jawed FBI type. So he has to say what I am a
38:35
doctor to get people to accept him as as, you know, the
38:41
smartest guy on the team, essentially.
38:43
And that really, you know, struck us as this is like, you
38:46
know, Scully so young, so little because there's a big gap
38:51
between you can see when the stood lining up, you know,
38:54
between her and and David Duchovny.
38:57
Those eventual kissing, the scene was quite awkward.
38:59
You know, Fraser, how we're going to shoot this from her
39:03
point of view or his? Get to get to a box.
39:05
And so it's really fascinating from, you know, the point of
39:09
view of how as a society we've moved on.
39:13
You know, again, if you've made this nowadays, you wouldn't have
39:16
Scully dressed as that way. And, you know, it's it's really
39:20
testament to Gillian Anderson that she is going in and bossing
39:24
a lot of these scenes. You know, we get to the end and
39:26
they're doing the raid on the office and it's Scully that's
39:29
coming. In right.
39:30
Yeah, again, again, it's just like more that's just there.
39:33
I'll just want to see the ghost. Me.
39:34
I'm not asked about your, your, your terrorists.
39:37
You do you do you. I just want to see the ghost.
39:38
And Scully is the one leading the charge of like, you know,
39:41
FBI, everyone put their hands on there, you know, put down what
39:45
you do. And we're here.
39:46
We're going to see your stuff. But she is the the agent in
39:49
charge and. Carter realizes so quickly that
39:52
Gillian Anderson is his secret weapon, and come the middle of
39:56
the season, in episodes like Beyond the Sea, and he gives her
39:58
like, powerhouse emotional material, she just kills it.
40:03
It's wonderful. Yeah, because it's it's very
40:06
much the coffee show at the minute.
40:08
But she is leading it. Yeah, he's the *, but she is the
40:11
one that's actually. I'll say it again and again.
40:13
They didn't want her. The producers didn't want her.
40:15
They wanted a traditional blonde, buxom babe.
40:19
Yeah, and Carter said. No.
40:21
We're going with the talent. And fucking look at her.
40:23
She's gorgeous. Yeah, she gets sexiest Woman of
40:27
the Year awards left wing. Come series 4, she's all over
40:30
FHM magazine as my wall when I was still pretending to be
40:34
straight. I have pictures of Scully all
40:37
over my wall, but the company was on the other side in his
40:40
underpants and I'll turn him around when.
40:42
Mum went to bits. Well, look, can we talk very
40:48
quickly about Howard Grieves, his successor, this dreadfully 1
40:53
dimensional new boss of the office?
40:56
Who? Man, there's just nothing to
40:58
him, is it? There's no character to him.
41:00
He's just horrible. Yeah.
41:03
It is, it's, it's, it's interesting again going back and
41:07
watching these things. You know, you, you see how much
41:09
they're trying to pack in and, you know, you see Doctor Who
41:12
trying to do it as well. I think it kind of gives a good
41:15
testament to Russell T Davies when he comes, you know, 10
41:19
years down the line from this to bring Doctor Who back and he's
41:22
he's faced with the same problem really of, you know, you have 45
41:26
minutes to set up a story, set up a an old adventure, you know,
41:31
put your characters in, give your characters, you know,
41:34
enough that they care about them and wrap it all up in the end.
41:37
It's it's it's a lot, a lot to do.
41:39
And you can see, you know, certainly here where they have,
41:44
you know, thought, well, OK, we haven't really, we can't really
41:47
drag this ghost thing out. We need to, you know, have that
41:49
bit where we'll stop and then we'll have the interrogation and
41:52
then we'll go back to the office.
41:53
And yeah, there's there's just. The picing is off, isn't it?
41:58
It's, it's not too bad. It's, you know, it's, I think I
42:01
prefer they did this than they did try and stretch it all out
42:04
and have that that seem where she gets attacked in the home as
42:07
the final one. I'll say like the they're,
42:09
they're smart enough writers on The X-Files.
42:12
Like fucking Vince Gilligan comes in in Series 2 and is with
42:16
the show, you know, Breaking Bad all the way through to Series 9.
42:19
You know, there's some of the best writers in television
42:22
eventually cut their teeth on The X-Files.
42:25
So as they go, they learn how to do this 45 minutes.
42:30
And in their best seasons they're banging out one after
42:32
another. 2 is such a good standard but teething problems.
42:37
But this is this is what you get with every season.
42:39
Season 1 you know, you go you go look at Buffy, you know and my.
42:43
Robot, you changed. Yeah, you know what I said this,
42:46
this will be a pedestrian, you know, episode of Buffy the
42:49
Vampire Say we would fit 100% within that first series of
42:52
Buffy. I'll be Christ alone.
42:53
Couldn't watch the first series of Next Generation.
42:58
Don't do that. Except the one where Tasha your
43:03
dies. That's pretty great.
43:04
Yeah, you know the one, Tasha, your becomes a sex leave.
43:07
That's that's fantastic. Yeah.
43:09
No fight over. Yeah, brilliant.
43:11
And where they're all fucking. That's episode 2, you know,
43:13
turning to Weiss. Well, yeah, they all go with the
43:15
sex planet. That's.
43:18
Justice. Yeah.
43:19
Jesus Christ suddenly shadows, you know, feels like a very
43:22
competent piece of work. It does, it does.
43:25
So I don't think it'll be too harsh on it, you know, for, you
43:29
know, essentially it's, it's like you say, it's a, it's a
43:31
series fine in its groove. It's a series which is, you
43:35
know, going to go on to go and do better things.
43:39
It's a series where you need, you need a bit of filler.
43:42
And that's, that's pretty much what it is.
43:44
It's a bit of filler for, you know, to keep on going, you
43:48
know? I just think the the thing that
43:50
really weighed this down was the earnestness of it all.
43:53
And it's not what I expect from Glen Morgan and James Wan
43:56
because they are two of the stronger writers on the show at
43:59
this point. They write ice, they write
44:02
tombs, they write Beyond the Sea.
44:05
It's just some of the absolute best episodes.
44:07
But everyone as an off day, and like we said, there's some funny
44:12
moments, but mostly it's sort of plots, you know?
44:15
Plots, you know what, like I say, there's there's you can see
44:19
element areas where with a bit of effort, with a bit of a push,
44:23
you know, sort of like what is what is low and Howard's
44:25
relationship, the boss man, what is you know what, what's he
44:29
about? You know, I like the bitchy the
44:32
new receptionist. You know, I wanted more of her
44:35
going. Well, maybe you've got away with
44:37
this with the old boss, but you're not getting away with it
44:39
with me. And then I I did love the NC.
44:42
No, because the thing the X stars has done in every episode
44:45
today, every fucking one phraser is the evil has been vanquished
44:50
or whatever it is. And then the last scene is that
44:52
Twilight zone thing of Oh my God, the evil still out there.
44:57
You know the Jersey Devil skid pops out of a hole once the
45:00
Jersey Devils been killed as one like that when this.
45:03
Was is looking at the slot and he's.
45:05
They play about with it, so they are starting some but she's in
45:08
that office at the end and the the whole place rumbles and then
45:13
the woman goes, oh, every time a truck goes past.
45:16
I thought, OK that's quite fun, but those jokes would be way
45:20
better later. On and also the the last scene
45:23
with Mulder and Scully where you'll get in the car and say,
45:25
oh, have you ever seen the Liberty Bell?
45:27
Nope. Quite fancy seeing the Liberty
45:29
Bell. Nope.
45:30
Yeah, because it gets so open. Nope.
45:34
That's quite. Nice, you know, that I thought
45:36
that was that was really nice because like I say, it was just
45:39
so it was so cheesy, just the way that Duchovny was just
45:42
playing Molder. So you know, stoic and laconic.
45:46
But you you get that bit at the end and you can kind of see, you
45:49
can start to see the the fun in him that you can see the the
45:53
lighter side in him. You can see why these two are
45:57
going to be, you know, really good partners together.
46:01
Well, we're now because we both sort of had a bit of a a less
46:05
than enjoyable experience with this one, but a fun time talking
46:08
about it. We have to do now that I'm great
46:11
in these episodes. Yeah, OK.
46:13
From a plus which I don't think this Shadows is going to get to
46:18
F. Why?
46:20
Why are you doing it to F? Come on.
46:22
Why? Because it's quite.
46:23
It's different. Why not?
46:25
Because it's files. It feels sort of more sort of
46:28
like, you know, something that belongs in a filing cabinet.
46:31
What? What's the name of the show?
46:33
The X-Files. So why we're doing HF, Why are
46:36
we not? Why you were not doing an X
46:38
rating? Oh.
46:40
Fuck off sakes. Would you just choose a score
46:42
please you? Can have.
46:45
You can have triple X-rated. You can have 4X.
46:48
You've got. Oh, I see what you're saying.
46:52
Well, I was too late now, I'm afraid I've already got going,
46:54
you know, Plus I quite liked, you know, trying to fight it out
46:56
to get this overall score between us as well.
46:59
That's quite. Great, it's FI Think I'm going
47:03
to go D with this one. Also, I was going to say D
47:07
minus, which is the lowest score I've given you.
47:12
Oh, no, Jersey Devil got worse. That's terrible.
47:14
Yeah. I think, I think D sits well
47:18
with me. I don't think you know it's
47:22
applauds. It's too earnest, but there is
47:26
the the shoots there. You can see the green shoots.
47:29
You can see you can see bits where it's going to, you know,
47:35
grow and develop and you're going to little flashes, little
47:40
little tiny welding flashes of charm in there.
47:45
I'm not going to say anything on indeed, the music, just, Oh my
47:49
word, the music was just so. That's just the music of The
47:52
X-Files. You better get used to that, all
47:53
right? Because all the other ones I've
47:55
watched, it hasn't been just just so melodramatic.
47:57
Probably the music that's Dragon One down more than anything.
48:00
It's just like this, this. Oh, it's haughty.
48:02
It's spooky, spooky music. You know the other the short
48:05
episodes of. One actually.
48:06
I seem to remember the music and space being quite good actually
48:09
when that face is coming out the screen.
48:13
So I'm I'm I'm going with D. Oh, well, let's round it up to D
48:16
then, because I was going to say D minus, but actually Joe,
48:19
because I think I think take the atmosphere of this.
48:21
I do think it was very well lit. Take the the well deployed
48:29
special effects, simple special effects, but just add more
48:35
energy, better guest characters, more less predictable script.
48:43
I mean every part of this I could guess from beginning to
48:45
end. The only bit that surprised me
48:48
was it wasn't a ghost in that last thing.
48:51
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, probably one of the
48:53
weakest ones so far, but you're right, there is there is
48:57
potential sort of seeping out, but they're little saplings
49:00
rather. Little saplings, Yeah.
49:02
The sort of the pop culture references, the, the, the, the
49:08
chemistry now that's really building between those two,
49:11
yeah. Now I'm going to tell you
49:14
something, Fraser, and I'm too scared to tell you because I
49:17
know you as champion of the damned have a reputation to live
49:21
up to. But the next episode that we are
49:24
doing, Space, is the least popular episode of the first
49:30
series by some margin. It always, and it lingers at the
49:35
bottom of pretty much the overall series polls.
49:41
So I'm almost too frightened to ask as a little spoiler whether
49:45
you enjoyed it more or less than Shadows.
49:48
Much more than this. That's what you did, for fuck's
49:52
sake. Well, until, until we examine
49:59
the damned. Thank you very much.
50:04
Apologies for, you know, going in on such a turgid old dog, but
50:10
things can only get better. Absolutely.
50:14
Thank you very much for your time.
50:16
You're very welcome. Thank you everyone for
50:17
listening. Remember, the truth is out
50:19
there.