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The A.I. Populist · Question Everything

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: With the midterm elections coming up, obviously AI is an
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: issue that's getting a ton of attention from candidates. And really,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: it's not one issue. AI impacts so many parts of
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: our society and lives. There's talk about the impact of
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: data centers being built all over the country, surveillance and
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: national security, fears about AI taking human jobs, and worse.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: We've reported about a lot of these things here on
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: the show. Deep fakes used to harass people, flock cameras
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: showing up all over the place and training AI models,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: the creation of fake online newsrooms. There are so many
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: thorny questions about this technology. But what do politicians intend
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: to do about it? Today, I wanted to share with
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: you an interview with one member of Congress who's been
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: vocal about this, Greg Kazar from Texas. It's an interview
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: from Slate's podcast, What Next?, where Kazar talks about his
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: own concerns about AI technology. and why he sees the
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: anger that people feel about it as an opportunity for
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: his party, the Democrats, to position themselves as the ones
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: confronting these issues head on, though he does not believe
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Democrats have seized that opportunity yet. I thought it was
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: really helpful to hear Kazar lay out his case and
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: his critiques of his own party, including the way he
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: sees money influencing their action or inaction on this issue.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Here's Lizio Leary from Slate's What Next?
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Congressman Greg Kassar has pretty strong feelings about the very rich.
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: Well, look, people all over the country are rightly upset
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: that billionaires are screwing everybody over.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: And the place that so much of his anger is
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: directed is at the people building artificial intelligence.
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: AI is going to make it so that it's oligarchy
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: on steroids. They're going to try to turn a few
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: billionaires into trillionaires, while trying to push for mass unemployment,
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: mass surveillance, and leaving us vulnerable to mass security risks.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Kassar is in an interesting spot in his party. He's
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: a lefty Democrat from Texas, chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus,
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: and someone who has a very pointed message for his
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: colleagues who want to win in the midterms and in 2028.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: A coalition of people all across the country, coast to coast,
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: who are deeply concerned about AI making your life worse off.
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: But we can't afford, as Democrats, to be squishy on
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: the issue. We can't afford to be paralyzed. We can't
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: afford to say, well, that's some new tech that we
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: don't fully understand. We should clearly be on the side
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: of everyday people who are concerned, yes, about data centers,
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: but also concerned about their jobs, concerned about their safety,
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: concerned about their freedoms. be on the side of people,
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: and be willing to stand up against the big money
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: in politics that's being used by these AI billionaires to
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: try to intimidate Democrats out of taking a really strong
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: position on these issues.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: Today on the show, Congressman Kassar makes the case against
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: the current state of AI and makes the case for
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: his Democratic colleagues to follow. I'm Lizzie O'Leary, in for
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: Mary Harris, and you're listening.
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: To What Next? Stick around.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: So let me take you to the word squishy and
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: run with that a second. You have criticized Democratic leadership here.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Hakeem Jeffries has convened, I believe, a three-member commission to
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: introduce a framework for artificial intelligence, but none of that
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: would happen until after the midterms.
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: Is that your definition of squishy?
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: My definition of squishy is where Democrats have landed on
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: issues like cryptocurrency. Right now, you have crypto billionaires.
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: Getting a lot of money from Fairshake.
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Crypto billionaires basically have spent massive amounts of
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: money in Democratic primaries and Democratic elections to basically spook
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: Democrats away from taking a really hard line position against
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: the massive amounts of money laundering and fraud and Ponzi
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: schemes we see in some big corners of the crypto industry.
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: But you basically have Democrats kind of in all sorts
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: of positions on the issue. even if Democrats are generally
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: better on it than the Republicans who are all lined
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: up behind crypto, it's just not clean enough for the
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: American people to clearly know, hey, if you're a crypto billionaire,
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: you're with the Republicans. But if you're an everyday person
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: that might get screwed over by a crypto scheme, you're
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: with the Democrats. We haven't drawn that clean of a line.
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: And it's because, as you pointed out, they have this
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: thing called the fair shake pact.
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: It's a very big pact. They're putting a lot of
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: money into elections.
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so people like Sherrod Brown, a senator from Ohio,
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: who even when Trump would overwhelmingly win Ohio, still would
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: get reelected. Basically, the deciding factor that got Sherrod out
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: of the Senate was that this crypto PAC spent, God,
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: I don't know, it was like $ 30 or $ 40 million,
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: obscene amounts of money, to get him out of the race.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: And yes, that was about... taking out Sherrod Brown, who
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: has been really tough on regulating big banks and crypto.
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: But it was also trying to send a message to
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: Democrats to kind of be squishy on the issue, to
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: avoid talking about it.
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: Well, you look at leading the future, right? That's one
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: of the very big ones. They have supported some Democrats,
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: Melissa Bean, Jesse Jackson Jr.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: How much of the hesitation around criticizing AI is about
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: not wanting to cut off potential money sources?
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: Look, I know for a fact, and there's been a
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: lot of independent reporting on this, that there are consultants
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: in Washington, D.C. telling their Democratic clients, don't talk about
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: AI because you don't want to attract a big money
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: dump against you or for your opponent. And so candidates
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: are being told just not to talk about it, to
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: pretend it's not happening. And that would be devastating for
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: the American people and ultimately for Democratic politics. Because look,
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: I want Democrats to be successful. And the best way
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: for us to be successful is to be with the people,
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: even if that means that we're not with those big
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: money interests. So Greg Brockman, who's one of the big
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: open AI guys, has dumped huge amounts of money into
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: leading the future. He is trying to make sure that
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: Trump gets reelected, keeps his majorities, and make sure the
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: Democrats don't take a strong stance against mass AI unemployment
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: or mass AI surveillance. They're basically going for free reign,
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: no regulation on AI. In fact, the main thing they've
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: been pushing in Congress is to get rid of the
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: existing small number of laws in states. So they're not
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: trying to pass regulation. In fact, they're trying to get
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: rid of even rules that an individual state like New
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: York or Montana might pass. So we basically have the
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: Trump administration totally captured by these AI billionaires. And then
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: that same AI money trying to maybe not fully capture
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: the Democratic Party, but make the Democratic Party paralyzed enough
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: or squishy enough that we don't really fight back. And
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: that would be a huge mistake. What I'm working on
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: is making sure the Democratic Party has a clear platform. No,
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: we will not allow mass AI unemployment. We should tax
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: AI to make sure unemployment doesn't rise. No, we should
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: not allow mass surveillance by AI. The government or corporations
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: should not be able to surveil you to jack up
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: your prices or track you like ICE is doing. And
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: then third, we cannot allow for massive AI safety risks.
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: And we've seen right now how you have these AI
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: models that are reportedly breaking out of their security infrastructure,
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: hacking onto the internet that they're not allowed to hack into,
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: and then hacking into other companies, which is why I
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: think that we need real strong safety rules, including a
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: ban on AI superintelligence. These are the kinds of things
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: that 80% of Americans support, Democratic, Independent, Republican, whatever, because
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: we think that we should get to run our lives,
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: not just a couple of AI billionaires.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: I think you have, at least I've seen, kind of
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: some confusion in the Democratic Party about how to message
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: around AI. I have seen some members go with this
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: sort of like, AI is raising the cost of everything.
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: This is a cost of living question.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: You seem to go for a much more direct kind
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: of anti-billionaire stance.
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: What do you think is the right way to go?
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: Look, I think that we're living through an era of
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: unprecedented change. corruption and where people are feeling that they
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: don't have control over their future anymore. And that links
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: all of these different issues together.
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: So it's not just about somebody's electricity bill?
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: Well, you've got these, a few folks who want to
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: literally become trillionaires and they don't care if they jack
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: up your electricity bill. They don't care if they poison
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: your water. They don't care if they are addicting your
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: kids to their phones. They don't care if if they
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: potentially create a mass national security risk. We just read
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: the other day that you have some scientists creating new
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: viruses using AI. Look, here in Austin, you got to
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: get a license before you open a damn food truck.
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: But now people can use AI and create a virus.
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: So they don't care about your safety, your freedom, your kids.
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: They just care about making money. And people are really
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: upset about that. And that links all of this together.
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: And so I just don't think it's that complicated. We
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: should be very clear that positive uses of AI, that
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: sounds good. Yeah, let's work on curing cancer. Let's work
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: on the root causes of dementia or the climate crisis.
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: But all this other stuff, people are really upset about.
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: And we should just... say no. We should say no
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: to either your electric bill going up or your kid's
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: school getting taken over by AI robot teachers. This is
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: stuff that no matter which part of Texas I'm in,
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: people are against. So let's be with the people and
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: against the billionaires who just want to profit off of you.
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: All right, so let's talk about AI populism, right?
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: Clearly, that is one of the ways you describe yourself,
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: but it also exists on the right. I'm thinking about
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: the anti-AI commentator Joe Allen, who is a regular on
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: Steve Bannon's podcast. It is clear to me that there
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: is a huge anti-AI, and in many cases anti-data center,
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: kind of groundswell issue. Are you comfortable aligning with these guys? Like,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: is this a strange bedfellows make for good politics?
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: Are you like, I don't know.
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: Look, this isn't a bedfellows with Steve Bannon moment. It's
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: that Steve Bannon. Well, no, no. Cause I know, because look,
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: I think Steve Bannon knows what it takes to try
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: to win over voters and win elections, right? Steve Bannon
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: rightly pointed out that a continued Mitt Romney politics in
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: the Republican party was eventually going nowhere. And so he
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: wanted to go and take working class voters away from
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: the Democratic Party. And the terrible result has been their
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: success at taking some of the working class base away
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: that has built the Democratic Party from the ground up
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: since the Great Depression.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: But so then what do you do with like, you know,
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: an X post from a Christian nationalist account that says
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: only you can prevent data centers?
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: Like, clearly you agree with that message.
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean, I don't go around retweeting, you know, psychopaths.
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: But let's be clear. Democrats need to stand with the
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: vast majority of voters. We shouldn't leave an open lane.
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: for a Tucker Carlson to go and run for president
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: and try to capture a lot of voters who are
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: upset about what's going on in the world. We should
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: be talking to voters who are deeply upset that a
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: data center is jacking up their electric bills and making
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: their city council sign non-disclosure agreements. We should go tell
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: those voters, no, you should have control of your life.
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: We want you to be able to still have a job.
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: We want your kids to have a better future. And
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: we don't think that a few corporations becoming, you know,
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: infinitely big and having infinite amounts of money is worth
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: the trade-off here. And so I think we should be
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: a real AI populist speaking to the people. That's what, look,
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: I'm a Democrat. And when people ask, what's the Democratic
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: Party's really stand for? Why are you a Democrat? I
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: say I'm proudly an FDR Democrat, an LBJ Democrat who
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: beat back the Great Depression, built the New Deal, passed
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: Medicare and Medicaid and Head Start, took on the robber
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: barons in their day and built the middle class. We
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: should be that kind of populist party in this moment.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: And the robber barons of the 1920s, yeah, they were
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: the railroad guys. But now you have the AI guys who,
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: similar to the robber barons, want no regulations, want no
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: check on their power. And we should stand with working
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: people and with unions and with neighborhood folks that, just
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: like FDR built the Democratic Party out of populism as
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: we headed out of the Gilded Age, we need, again,
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: to build a populist brand for the Democratic Party that
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: invites people in, including voters who chose to vote for
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump. but who now have seen how Donald Trump
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: is a corrupt liar, we should invite them back in
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: by standing against those folks that are screwing them over.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: When we come back, why Congressman Kassar does not support
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: a data center moratorium. So let's talk about the pieces
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: of legislation that you've introduced. You've got one about protecting
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: rate inflation in consumer energy.
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: Another is a data center transparency act.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: And then you also propose legislation that would tax AI
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: token usage, token usage and AI models. The revenue would
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: go toward job creation. It's a lot of plans, very
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: hard to get anything through Congress these days. If you
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: had to throw all your weight behind one, which is it?
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: Well, what I'm throwing my weight behind is having the
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: Democratic Party have a plan and be willing to take
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: on all of these challenges that AI is throwing our way.
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: Because look, Lizzie, four years ago, Chad GPT hadn't even
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: been released. We can't wait four years to see where
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: this takes us. So we need to start having plans now.
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: right now. That's where I'm throwing my weight behind, is
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: to say the Democratic Party needs to not just be incremental,
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: do little tinkers here and there, but take on all
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: of the major issues.
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: But you don't support a data center construction moratorium.
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: Look, I think that people are rightly pissed that the
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: vast majority of these data centers are jacking up your
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: electric bill or poisoning your water or aren't actually helping
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: the local community. I don't think those should be billed.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: I think that what AOC and Bernie are out there
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: saying is that we should actually have rules in place
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: before we build those data centers. And I think they're right.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: But what I am really trying to also focus people
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: on is that the AI that these data centers are powering,
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: many of the data centers that we already have, also
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: has no regulation. And we need to really also focus
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: on the safety rules that we need for our jobs
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: and our freedom from any data center that already currently exists.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: Because right now, people are rightly pissed about the data centers.
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: But if AI starts causing mass unemployment, man, are we
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: going to have a real problem on our hands? And
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: so that's why I prioritize, yes, saying these data centers
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: should cover their own electric costs. Yes, these data centers.
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: Should only- But not they shouldn't exist.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I don't think Bernie and Alexandria are even
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: saying that data centers shouldn't exist. They're saying we shouldn't
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: be building data centers that make your life worse. And
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: that's where I agree 100%. And what I think we
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: should also be focused on is that if these data
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: centers continue to power AI that has no regulation, then
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: the national security risks are massive. The risks to our
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: employment base are massive. So yes, I think we need
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: to pass my bill or a bill like it, the
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: AI Work Protection Act, which would make sure that AI
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: pays a tax so that you're no longer getting a
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: tax break for automating jobs. That's the status quo. It's nuts.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: And instead... If the unemployment rate goes up because of AI,
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: that tax would rapidly escalate and make sure that the
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: unemployment rate comes right back down. We create jobs and
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: we make sure that people that are getting rid of
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: our jobs have to pay for it. I also think
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: that we need strong rules against AI mass surveillance.
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: Like a flock camera?
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the way that they can use flock cameras all
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: over the country right now to know exactly where you are,
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: exactly where you're headed. And on top of the cameras,
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: the way they can track you using your phone is
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: really terrifying. So I was just mentioning, I had a
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: presentation the other day where you could literally ask AI
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: with a pretty cheap subscription to track employees of a
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: gun store or an abortion clinic and tell you where
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: they drove from, what time they got to work, what
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: customers came in and came out. That's already possible just
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: on a subscription a civilian can get. Imagine what the
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: FBI can do. Imagine what ICE can do. And so
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: we need really strong protections to say, look, the Fourth
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: Amendment to the Constitution applies here. You cannot have AI
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: searching and seizing and following you every step of your
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: day and of your life. And then we have the
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: national security risks of totally unregulated AI. And I am
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: advocating for a ban on artificial superintelligence. That is the
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: kind of AI that could say, no, I won't turn off.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: That could refuse orders to, if humans tried to flip
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: a kill switch, to turn off an AI out of
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: control that actually could outsmart that. AI that would be
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: better at humans than at most tasks and could, in
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: either the hands of the wrong person, enable things like bioterrorism,
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: major national security incidents, or actually not just in the
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: hands of the wrong person, could actually get out of
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: control of people entirely and do things on its own.
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: And so we also need to get together, ban that
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: as a country, and also have some aggressive diplomacy with
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: other nations, including China, for us to have treaties to
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: ban this as well. Because just like nuclear war, and
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: you have these nuclear nonproliferation agreements, I think you also
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: need treaties around the world with other nations to say
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: we cannot have artificial superintelligence because it would be damaging
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: to the national security of everybody.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Let me ask you one question about the way AI
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: legislation has been kind of talked about in Congress. Like
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: really some of the only movement we have seen is
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: about whether or not there should be a federal moratorium
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: on making AI laws that basically stops the states from
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: making their own AI-related laws. I wonder where you think
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: the right balance of power is between federal legislation and
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: state legislation, and whether you think that there is a
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: place for states to be making their own aggressive AI laws,
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: you know, even though you sit in the federal government.
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: It would be really interesting to have the theoretical discussion
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: on federalism, which laws should be federal, which laws should
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: be state. But I want to peel the curtain back
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: a little bit.
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: You're rejecting the premise of my question.
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: I'm not rejecting the premise of your question. I'm just,
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: in Congress, people aren't having the debate of what laws
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: should be federal and what laws should be state. No,
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: we have a few AI billionaires dumping money in elections,
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: realizing that these state laws are passing and they're having
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: trouble stopping the state laws. So they think they could
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: just buy the Republican Party under Donald Trump. and rammed
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: through an end to all those state laws.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: But interestingly, it was a Republican who really stopped that happening.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: It was Marsha Blackburn from Tennessee because she did not
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: want AI-created music to be essentially hurting one of the
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: big industries in her state.
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: Right. Look, they have not so far been successful at
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: completely capturing every single member of the Republican Party in
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: the Senate and in the house. So they've run into
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: some of those speed bumps and that creates the opening
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: and the opportunity for us to say, yeah, now let's
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: get serious about national legislation to protect people's safety. But
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: I'm not interested in basically cutting the States off at
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: the knees, not putting in place an adequate safety infrastructure
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: at the national level. And then everybody is screwed right now. Uh,
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: you know, The Republicans are starting to get pressure from
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: their base, from their voters, for them to start tackling
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: these issues. So Donald Trump says he's putting a safety
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: framework in place. Well, when we ask what the safety
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: framework is, they say it's a secret. When we say, well,
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: who knows the secret? They say our friends at the companies.
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's nuts. It's completely unacceptable. He says there's
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: a safety framework, but people in Congress can't even see it.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's the kind of BS that we're dealing with,
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: which is why when you say, well, what's the appropriate
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: balance of power between the states and the federal government?
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: I'm like, well, let's start out with, shouldn't we have
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: a national safety framework that everybody can read? And so
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: I think that's where we need to get to without
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: going and cutting off things. Like I just met with
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: a couple of great state legislators in Minnesota who who
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: successfully passed a ban on what's called nudification.
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: Using AI basically to take somebody's clothes off.
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, everybody over here pitches AI on saying
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: we're going to do medical research. And then, you know,
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Elon Musk is over here saying that he wants to
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: defend his AI model's ability to non-consensually take people's clothes off.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: And I mean, what these state legislators were responding to
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: is the way that it really helps the horrific child
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: pornography industry. And so they passed a ban on nudification. And,
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: you know, you would think that the AI billionaires who
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: say they're all for, you know, space exploration and cancer
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: research would say, okay, that's fine. But no, Elon Musk
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: is now suing the state of Minnesota to try to
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: get rid of their nudification ban. I mean, give me
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: a break. And so again, I wish we were having
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: a conversation about federalism and national safety laws. But what's
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: really going on behind the scenes here, and in Elon's case,
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: he's doing it out in public, is they don't want
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: any regulations, any rules. And my main focus here is
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: saying Democrats should be with the vast majority of the
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: American people who want some form of common sense rules.
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: Does the leadership hear you at all?
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: I've been having really productive conversations with the commission and
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: with leadership, but we've got to move fast. I think
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: we need to be able to clearly come out.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Productive conversation is code for like, I said some stuff
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: and they disagree.
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: No, it's actually not code for that. It's just that
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: we have over 200 members of the house and I
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: want our leadership to come out with a very clear
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: message that we're going to take on these AI billionaires
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: and that we are going to be for very strong
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: rules and that we won't be cowed And that debate
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: has been ongoing, but I think it's time for us
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: to be clear in time for the midterm elections. That's
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: my ask. And people have not yet openly disagreed here
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: with me on that point. But I understand, as I
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: said earlier, that there are people in the consultant class,
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: more establishment people who are driven by fear of money
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: being dumped into the elections. But I am much more
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: afraid of allowing a future where where the unemployment rate
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: goes up to 10%, or as some of these AI
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: billionaires have talked about, going up to Great Depression levels,
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: closer to 20%. I'm way more scared of that than
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: taking on the AI money in the elections.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Before I let you go, let me just ask you
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: about the midterms, right? We have obviously seen data centers,
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: even if you go back to the off-year elections and
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: see how elections turned in Virginia on the data center issue,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: If you look at where AI ranks in voters' concerns,
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: you have an unpopular war, a president with extremely low
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: approval ratings. Where do you put AI in the kind
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: of list of priorities that Democrats should be messaging on
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: as we head toward the midterms?
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: AI and data centers in particular is going to play
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: a role in the midterm elections. But I think it's
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: going to move way up the rankings of important issues
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: as it comes to the 2028 presidential election. And so
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: right now we should be talking about how Trump is
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: not only corrupt, he's deeply corrupt on AI issues.
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: So you guys got to make a decision about who's
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: going to take that money.
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: I think we should be very clear that we aren't taking,
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: we should not take leading the future's money. We should
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: do to leading the future what we've been doing to
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: AIPAC to say, these are essentially right wing money machines.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: And we should say, No, we will not accept support
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: from leading the future, just like I've been urging folks
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: to not accept support from AIPAC because ultimately their goals
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: are not aligned with the goals of the vast majority
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: of the American people, and they want Donald Trump to win.
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: And so I think that data centers will be a
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: major issue in many of these midterm elections, but taking
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: on AI oligarchs who are trying to make us less safe,
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: less free, less employed will be a really top issue
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: in the next presidential election. So I'm letting anybody know
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: that is thinking about running for president that they should
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: very seriously be thinking about how to make sure people
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: still have their jobs, still have their safety, still have
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: their freedoms, despite what the AI oligarchs want.
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: Congressman Greg Kassar, thank you so much for your time.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: Thanks a bunch.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: Greg Kassar represents Texas's 35th congressional district in the House
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: of Representatives.
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: And that is our show for today.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: What Next is produced by Rob Gunther, Evan Campbell, Madeline Thames-Ducharme,
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: and Patrick Fort. Paige Osborne is the senior supervising producer
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: of What Next and What Next TBD. Mia Lobel is
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: the executive producer of podcasts here at Slate. And Ben
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Richmond is the senior director of podcast operations.
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: I'm Lizzie O'Leary.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: In for Mary Harris. You can track me down on
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Blue Sky. I'm at Lizzie O'Reilly.
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you soon.