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2 - KOTOR II: Kreia, the Exile, and Killing the Force · Mythic Mind Games

0:04
Speaker 1: Alone. Welcome to the Mythic Mind Games podcast, where we
0:07
Speaker 1: pursue wisdom on the path between primary and secondary worlds.
0:10
Speaker 1: I'm doctor Andrew Snyder, and I'm glad that you're here.
0:19
Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome to the second episode of Mythic
0:21
Speaker 1: Mind Games, where we are discussing video games from a
0:26
Speaker 1: general humanities perspective. And as I mentioned in the last episode,
0:30
Speaker 1: this is part of the Mythic Mind Fellowship, which is
0:32
Speaker 1: a wide reaching association of Christians of various stripes who
0:38
Speaker 1: are generally interested in the humanities. I mean, some of
0:42
Speaker 1: us our scholars, some of us are writers, some of
0:44
Speaker 1: us are just people who like to read and to
0:46
Speaker 1: talk about things like this, talk about stories, talk about
0:50
Speaker 1: what matters. And today we are going to be continuing
0:54
Speaker 1: our conversation on Knights of the Old Republic. And I
0:57
Speaker 1: say we're continuing this conversation because today we're talking about
1:01
Speaker 1: the second Kotor game. Our chat on the first kodet
1:03
Speaker 1: Or game is back on the main Mythic Mind podcast,
1:06
Speaker 1: which is the launching point over here. So if you
1:07
Speaker 1: haven't listened to that, then go check out the Mythic
1:10
Speaker 1: Mind podcast and look for our episode on Nights of
1:13
Speaker 1: the Old Republic, but as mentioned today, we're going to
1:15
Speaker 1: be talking about the second Nights of the Old Republic,
1:17
Speaker 1: the Sith Lords. This is a great game. I've had
1:23
Speaker 1: a lot of replay value. I've returned to it again
1:25
Speaker 1: and again over the years, and if you've never played it,
1:28
Speaker 1: and then I hope this conversation will encourage you to
1:30
Speaker 1: pick it up, because well, I think that both of
1:33
Speaker 1: these games are really significant. They both deal with some
1:36
Speaker 1: important storytelling elements, some of the most important I think
1:39
Speaker 1: that have come out of the whole Star Wars franchise.
1:42
Speaker 1: But this game in particular, I think does some very
1:44
Speaker 1: important things philosophically, and we'll get into that in this conversation.
1:48
Speaker 1: And before we get started, I just want to let
1:50
Speaker 1: you know that everything that we do here is Patroon funded,
1:54
Speaker 1: and so if you enjoy this conversation, if you enjoy
1:57
Speaker 1: the things that we're doing with Mythic Mind, then I
1:59
Speaker 1: very much to welcome your support over on Patreon at
2:02
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2:05
Speaker 1: throw five dollars a month my way, or you're able
2:07
Speaker 1: to do a little bit more than that, it's all
2:09
Speaker 1: appreciated and if you want to do a one time tip,
2:11
Speaker 1: then you can use the buy me a Coffee platform,
2:14
Speaker 1: which you can find a link to in the show
2:15
Speaker 1: notes along with that Patreon link. All right, but now
2:17
Speaker 1: let's go ahead and get into our main conversation. All right,
2:23
Speaker 1: welcome back, well, actually now welcome to the Mythic Mind
2:26
Speaker 1: Games podcast, which is freshly going here. Today we're going
2:31
Speaker 1: to continue our discussion of Kodetor, moving on to code
2:34
Speaker 1: Tor two, the Sith Lords, and so kay the same
2:39
Speaker 1: formats last time. We'll see where the conversation goes. Talk
2:41
Speaker 1: a little bit about kind of our experience with this game,
2:44
Speaker 1: you know, why, why it stands out to us, and yeah,
2:47
Speaker 1: we'll just kind of take it from there. This is
2:52
Speaker 1: I've definitely played this one more than I have the
2:55
Speaker 1: first one. I think it has more replay value to it.
2:58
Speaker 1: I mean there's more more to is a make, I
3:00
Speaker 1: mean more, I think, variety of potential engagement with companions.
3:04
Speaker 1: I think it's general it makes for a better replay.
3:07
Speaker 1: Although unfortunately it is a little bit unfinished and how
3:11
Speaker 1: it came out you got kind of rushed through development
3:13
Speaker 1: a little bit unfinished, although there are some potential fixes
3:17
Speaker 1: for that I if you're playing on the PC, and
3:21
Speaker 1: what I appreach about this game is in addition to
3:23
Speaker 1: some new gameplay albums and just make it more fun,
3:26
Speaker 1: more more engaging, is that I think it is. It's
3:29
Speaker 1: more of an explicitly philosophical story as I'm sure we're
3:31
Speaker 1: going to get into, and you know, with our main
3:35
Speaker 1: antagonist of the story, with Crea really being this kind
3:39
Speaker 1: of Nietzschean sortry in sort of like nihilistic, let's just
3:44
Speaker 1: tear everything down and rebuild it out of our sheer,
3:47
Speaker 1: independent free will, which you can tell us an older
3:50
Speaker 1: game in that she's not the hero with that philosophy.
3:55
Speaker 1: So one of the things that I appreciate about this game.
3:58
Speaker 1: But you know, I could go off on that for
4:00
Speaker 1: for a little while on my rants against neihilistic existentialism,
4:03
Speaker 1: but we'll hear from some other people first, Josh, tell
4:07
Speaker 1: us something about just wherever you want to kick us off.
4:11
Speaker 2: Yeah. Man, it's hard to give any sort of introduction
4:14
Speaker 2: to this game, because, as you've already stated, there's so
4:17
Speaker 2: much to it. And I do agree, first of all
4:20
Speaker 2: with your perspective that the replayability factor is much more
4:27
Speaker 2: there for Kotor two than it is for one though,
4:30
Speaker 2: I do think they're both. They both meyrit many many
4:34
Speaker 2: replays this one there is there are many more choices
4:37
Speaker 2: that you can make, and I think you did touch
4:40
Speaker 2: on this, and I think one of the biggest contributing
4:43
Speaker 2: factors for that is the relationships that you can build
4:49
Speaker 2: with your party members and the way you the way
4:51
Speaker 2: you can influence them, specifically as playing through the Exile
4:56
Speaker 2: or Metrosurik however we want to go about type like
5:00
Speaker 2: our protagonist hear he is shaking his head for some reason.
5:04
Speaker 2: We'll maybe we'll get to that in a second, but
5:08
Speaker 2: that's really one of the I think one of the
5:10
Speaker 2: biggest changes in one of the biggest improvements from Kotor
5:13
Speaker 2: one is the relationship you have with your party members,
5:19
Speaker 2: especially to just like I mean, first of all, this
5:22
Speaker 2: is the depth of characters overall. I mean, like I
5:26
Speaker 2: like Karth a lot, Right, he's like a great. It's
5:30
Speaker 2: kind of like a great, just like a virtuous, like
5:33
Speaker 2: paragon type of figure. Not not perfect, right, he's flawed,
5:36
Speaker 2: but he really like he really is kind of like
5:38
Speaker 2: an exemblar of a lot of this like heroic mass
5:41
Speaker 2: heal and virtues in a lot of ways, and there's
5:45
Speaker 2: a sense where, like you can say the same with
5:47
Speaker 2: with Aten, but there's a sense where you know the
5:50
Speaker 2: character Aten this is kind of like the Handy Blast
5:53
Speaker 2: or a character is he's kind of more of like
5:55
Speaker 2: a Han solo type in a way. But then once
5:57
Speaker 2: you like talk to him more and more throughout the
5:59
Speaker 2: game and you really peel back the layers to him,
6:01
Speaker 2: I actually think he's one of the most profound characters
6:05
Speaker 2: in either of the games, and especially if you get
6:09
Speaker 2: to like that part where you basically convince him and
6:12
Speaker 2: influence him enough to become a Jedi, and the dialogue
6:14
Speaker 2: about him and his backstory, and just the fact that
6:17
Speaker 2: he's not just this scoundrel, swashbuckling rogue type of character.
6:23
Speaker 2: He is that, but he's so much more than that.
6:25
Speaker 2: And I think he's just one example of many of
6:28
Speaker 2: just the depths of the party members amongst others, especially
6:31
Speaker 2: even some of the dialog Unlock with like the Handmaiden
6:34
Speaker 2: or Vassis mar Visus mar I'm not exactly sure I've pronounced,
6:38
Speaker 2: but in Krea, of course, as we could spend probably
6:42
Speaker 2: two or three episodes just talking about Korea in the
6:45
Speaker 2: depth there, but just I think the characters are one
6:49
Speaker 2: of many dimensions to this game that makes it, in
6:52
Speaker 2: my opinion, one of the most well written games I've
6:55
Speaker 2: ever played. At least.
6:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely agree that there's more to the characters,
7:01
Speaker 1: and definitely more to the engagement with the characters. I
7:04
Speaker 1: like the influenced system, although I wish it went further
7:07
Speaker 1: where you actually impact their personality. I mean, you know,
7:11
Speaker 1: you can go full dark side full dark light side
7:13
Speaker 1: and bring them along with you, and then there's no
7:15
Speaker 1: essential change to their character other than you know, the
7:19
Speaker 1: force powers they can use the best. So I wish
7:23
Speaker 1: on a more immersive level they had pulled that out
7:27
Speaker 1: some But at the same time, I appreciate what they did.
7:29
Speaker 1: I appreciate the development from the first game in what
7:31
Speaker 1: they're doing with that, and it is I mean, it
7:34
Speaker 1: is kind of fun how you can induct them into
7:37
Speaker 1: your Jedi or Sith ways, and it just it adds
7:41
Speaker 1: to a new dynamic. Right, Ian tell us something about
7:43
Speaker 1: about this game.
7:45
Speaker 3: So I was shaking my head because I reject the
7:48
Speaker 3: name Metris Hirk. I think it's it sounds like it
7:51
Speaker 3: was developed in the name Generator and has no connection
7:55
Speaker 3: to the character And the really interesting thing is, even
7:59
Speaker 3: though in both Kotoor one and Kotoar two, the character
8:03
Speaker 3: that you play is kind of a blank slate, the
8:09
Speaker 3: Jedi Exile is what I call that main character has
8:13
Speaker 3: so much more personality because the choices that your character
8:17
Speaker 3: has to have made to get to where you are
8:20
Speaker 3: are so individual. I mean, she well, so I generally
8:26
Speaker 3: think of her as she, even though I played her
8:28
Speaker 3: as both male and female. But the Jedi Exile went
8:33
Speaker 3: against the Jedi Council and Reven, which means that, like
8:38
Speaker 3: there's a very specific type of rebellion and moral code
8:43
Speaker 3: that she has to have had to do those things.
8:47
Speaker 3: The Jedi Exile also draws people to her in a
8:53
Speaker 3: way that Reven doesn't really. I mean, Reven just kind
8:55
Speaker 3: of happens a bunch of a bunch of people, whereas
8:58
Speaker 3: the jedixle kind of people just kind of really want
9:02
Speaker 3: to follow that character. And so there's a charisma that
9:06
Speaker 3: I would say Reven doesn't really have necessarily. I mean,
9:09
Speaker 3: you can play Reven as if he has charisma, but
9:13
Speaker 3: the Jedi Exile has to because of what the story
9:17
Speaker 3: she's involved in does. So I think that there's a
9:20
Speaker 3: lot more necessary defined personality that you can play as
9:25
Speaker 3: both light or dark, but she still has a defined
9:28
Speaker 3: code and a defined rebellion to her that's required. I also,
9:35
Speaker 3: again like with those companions, like I personally really love Mira,
9:39
Speaker 3: like this bounty hunter character who was kidnapped by Mandalorians,
9:43
Speaker 3: and she also you can convert her to a Jedi
9:46
Speaker 3: as well, and that scene when you do it on Darshada,
9:51
Speaker 3: the Hot Moon has real emotional depth, Like the writing
9:55
Speaker 3: and the voice acting really hits me when I'm able
9:58
Speaker 3: to get that. So even with the quote unquote broken ending,
10:05
Speaker 3: I think that there's so much emotional weight of the
10:10
Speaker 3: characters and the character you're playing and the journey you.
10:13
Speaker 2: All go on that.
10:17
Speaker 3: It sticks with you longer. I mean, even apart from
10:19
Speaker 3: all the gameplay stuff that I completely agree with. I mean,
10:21
Speaker 3: you can blasters are no longer completely useless, You can
10:24
Speaker 3: have so many different weapons, You can make your own weapons,
10:27
Speaker 3: so it feels like you actually have all these different
10:30
Speaker 3: skills and stuff. But those characters and the influence system
10:35
Speaker 3: and the way everything gets to a darker place I
10:41
Speaker 3: think really make Kotor two really the standout of the
10:46
Speaker 3: two or three. I mean, I also include the Old Republic.
10:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I will say for anybody who hasn't played
10:54
Speaker 1: the game, who isn't super familiar with it, that if
10:57
Speaker 1: we can get a little inconsistent with the Hishi stuff,
11:00
Speaker 1: we're not positive a philosophy of gender here. This is
11:03
Speaker 1: you know, canonically it's supposed to be a female, but
11:06
Speaker 1: obviously when you're playing the game, you can pick either option.
11:08
Speaker 1: So just in case there's any confusion, was to what's
11:11
Speaker 1: going on there? All right, David?
11:15
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm here to represent the people that aren't as
11:18
Speaker 4: familiar with it. I mean, just because of so much
11:20
Speaker 4: time has passed. Same with the last game. I do
11:24
Speaker 4: remember the story. It's one of the bleakest stories Star
11:29
Speaker 4: Wars stories that I can recall, and I, I don't know,
11:37
Speaker 4: there's really interesting Sith characters, and I had to like
11:42
Speaker 4: look online to try and remind myself of some of
11:45
Speaker 4: what was going on. And there's so many just huge
11:48
Speaker 4: video essays that people have written and made YouTube videos about.
11:53
Speaker 3: You know.
11:53
Speaker 4: I saw one that said why this is the best
11:55
Speaker 4: story in video games? And then I saw that it
11:57
Speaker 4: was eight hours long and didn't even click on it.
11:59
Speaker 4: But yeah, so I know there's a lot of depth
12:03
Speaker 4: to plumb in this, and I don't know. Hopefully I'll
12:07
Speaker 4: I'll have some more questions and comments as we get
12:10
Speaker 4: into it.
12:12
Speaker 1: I feel like I need to watch this eight hour
12:14
Speaker 1: video essay now, maybe on triple speed get the gist
12:18
Speaker 1: of it. Interesting. Yeah, So, I mean, I guess it
12:23
Speaker 1: might be helpful to just kind of frame what the
12:27
Speaker 1: story is. And I was hoping I would get to
12:29
Speaker 1: replay it before this conversation, but I just haven't had
12:32
Speaker 1: too much other stuff going on. And so I mean,
12:36
Speaker 1: joshure you know, I mean, do you want to just frame, like,
12:38
Speaker 1: what is the plot of this game?
12:43
Speaker 3: Well? It's fascinating because it starts off as kind of
12:48
Speaker 3: a horror story when you're trapped in a mining colony,
12:51
Speaker 3: surrounded by droids that want to kill you in dead bodies,
12:55
Speaker 3: and you have very little memory, as most of these
12:58
Speaker 3: games are. And as the story develops, you meet an
13:03
Speaker 3: old Jedi woman who starts telling you all these creepy,
13:07
Speaker 3: sort of as you say, Nietzschean things, and you discover
13:13
Speaker 3: that there's actually a syth plot to kill all the
13:16
Speaker 3: Jedi and take over the galaxy, and they've gotten really
13:19
Speaker 3: far in the rim where you are so instead of
13:21
Speaker 3: being kind of in the central world like the first game,
13:24
Speaker 3: this is on the rim. You've got all these hut
13:27
Speaker 3: planets and smuggler moons that you have to go to,
13:30
Speaker 3: and on every world you find self hidden assassins that
13:35
Speaker 3: are trying to kill you, and you slowly develop the
13:37
Speaker 3: picture of why they're trying to kill you, who's leading them,
13:41
Speaker 3: And you discover a syth triumvirate, a world eating monster,
13:47
Speaker 3: a scarred zombie, and a mysterious hooded figure who keeps
13:52
Speaker 3: popping up. And as the game progresses, of course, you
13:56
Speaker 3: find out more about the origins of each of these
13:58
Speaker 3: three characters, what your relationship to them is, and your
14:02
Speaker 3: relationship to Reven and the civil war ten years ago.
14:06
Speaker 3: And so you just keep diving into these layers and
14:09
Speaker 3: finding hidden Jedi on each planet, and it all builds
14:14
Speaker 3: up to a big confrontation at the Sith Academy.
14:19
Speaker 1: It's a pretty good overview. Now, Okay, remind me of
14:23
Speaker 1: exactly the backstory. So I know the exile was cut
14:26
Speaker 1: off from the Force or cut themselves off from the
14:30
Speaker 1: Force or something. What's the specifics of the starting place
14:35
Speaker 1: of the protagonists to the Force?
14:43
Speaker 3: Well, I think this is perhaps a little bit debatable,
14:48
Speaker 3: I think, but you discover in your exploration of your
14:52
Speaker 3: character's history that you were, in general for Reven. You
14:56
Speaker 3: were one of Reven's top military commanders. One of the
15:00
Speaker 3: final battles, you triggered a super weapon that destroyed an
15:05
Speaker 3: entire planet full of Mandalorians. And the catastrophe of that choice,
15:10
Speaker 3: because you're the ones who made that choice, either you
15:19
Speaker 3: or that trauma itself stripped the force from you, and
15:25
Speaker 3: you slowly are getting it back as you as you go.
15:31
Speaker 1: Right right. And I recall that if you, especially if
15:34
Speaker 1: you take the dark path and you basically go off
15:38
Speaker 1: and kill all the Jedi, then you are you're blaming
15:42
Speaker 1: them for like cutting you off from the force. So
15:43
Speaker 1: that's at least part of the driving element. And so
15:46
Speaker 1: it is interesting that if you take the light side approach,
15:49
Speaker 1: it's more of a story of coming to terms with
15:52
Speaker 1: your own sin and sort of integrating that, recognizing owning that,
15:56
Speaker 1: like I did that and in so doing, I cut
15:59
Speaker 1: myself off from like the reality of life. I entered
16:02
Speaker 1: the shadow. I entered the darkness willingly. And so there
16:04
Speaker 1: is that idea of coming to terms with your shadow
16:07
Speaker 1: sort of reconciling it and moving forward to repentance, which
16:09
Speaker 1: is exactly what you would want from a light Side story,
16:13
Speaker 1: whereas the Dark Path is a lot more just built
16:16
Speaker 1: around resentment and externalizing your problems rather than actually dealing
16:20
Speaker 1: with them, which is we're kind of ironic because CREA's
16:25
Speaker 1: whole spiel is about like your radical independence. At the
16:31
Speaker 1: same time, it's a radical independence that actually shirks personal responsibility.
16:36
Speaker 1: And so that there's a lot of I think, just
16:38
Speaker 1: very strong, very good philosophy that that's playing out here
16:42
Speaker 1: in portraying the just the illusory nature of the dark
16:48
Speaker 1: side justification compared to the reality of coming to terms
16:51
Speaker 1: with what is on the light side. And that's one
16:54
Speaker 1: of the things that I think just makes this in
16:57
Speaker 1: a moral sense, in a philosophical sense, a good story,
17:01
Speaker 1: not just compelling, but it's actually promoting something good with
17:04
Speaker 1: a kind of message that you rarely see from modern games.
17:08
Speaker 1: You rarely see for modern Star Wars in such explicit terms.
17:12
Speaker 1: And so, yeah, that's that's powerful. Josh, how you unmuted
17:16
Speaker 1: for a second.
17:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can remember exactly what I was going to
17:20
Speaker 2: comment on, and that's gonna probably be a recurring thing.
17:22
Speaker 2: Because there's so much to comment on, but you mentioned
17:27
Speaker 2: some of like the Light Side and Dark Side path differences,
17:29
Speaker 2: and for anyone that hasn't played this game, especially on
17:33
Speaker 2: the Light Side Path, you you encounter the different basically
17:38
Speaker 2: the Jedi Council members, like the Jedi Masters who really
17:44
Speaker 2: judged and condemned you are to not really draw a
17:48
Speaker 2: out of attention via just their combined kind of like oneness,
17:53
Speaker 2: I guess, or power in the force. They've all scattered
17:56
Speaker 2: to like kind of these more remote like outer rim planets.
18:01
Speaker 5: Right.
18:01
Speaker 2: But and like a big part of the game is
18:04
Speaker 2: whereas like in Kotor one you kind of have like
18:06
Speaker 2: the star like collecting the Starmat pieces, they're kind of like,
18:08
Speaker 2: in a sense, like a maguffin that like you you
18:12
Speaker 2: get these these fragments that move the plot along. Well,
18:15
Speaker 2: in this you're really like you're almost like instead of
18:17
Speaker 2: collecting Starmap fragments, you're collecting Jedi Council members, whether you
18:23
Speaker 2: meet them up and you know, basically challenge them to
18:26
Speaker 2: a duel and kill them on the Dark Side Path
18:29
Speaker 2: or bring them back on the Light Side Path, or
18:32
Speaker 2: do some weird mixture of both, because you technically you
18:35
Speaker 2: hypothetically could like I'm gonna kill two of them and
18:37
Speaker 2: save two of them. For some reason, you really wanted
18:39
Speaker 2: to go that route again. A lot of decisions to
18:41
Speaker 2: make in this game. But the way, like there's this
18:45
Speaker 2: really culminating scene in the Light Side Path where you
18:47
Speaker 2: do bring the Council members back and they almost basically
18:50
Speaker 2: have this approach where it's like, yeah, you're still too
18:53
Speaker 2: powerful and too dangerous, so we're just gonna do the
18:55
Speaker 2: same thing and condemn you again anyway, And then that
18:59
Speaker 2: scene where Kraa comes in and she she just like
19:03
Speaker 2: kills all of them on the spot, like on Dan
19:06
Speaker 2: Tween and the old Jedi on Clay from the first game,
19:10
Speaker 2: and it really just shows that even on the like
19:12
Speaker 2: even on the light Side Path, they die, even on
19:15
Speaker 2: the Light Side Path they get criticized, and so there's
19:18
Speaker 2: it's not just like CREA's philosophy. It's not just that
19:23
Speaker 2: the Sith are are bad, but it's that it's criticizing
19:28
Speaker 2: really in a lot of ways, this monastic just like
19:34
Speaker 2: complete like detachment of everything that the Jedi and like
19:40
Speaker 2: Joe even criticizes in the first game right where he
19:43
Speaker 2: talks about like, you know, while of not leading to
19:46
Speaker 2: the dark side, and basically that it's having passions that
19:51
Speaker 2: are unchecked and unrestrained maybe in a sense by reason,
19:55
Speaker 2: unchecked and uncontrolled by reason, that lead people to the
19:58
Speaker 2: dark side. And we get debate whether that is, whether
20:01
Speaker 2: Joe Lee's correct in that or not, but either way,
20:04
Speaker 2: he has a point in being critical of this whole,
20:09
Speaker 2: like this whole like Jedi code basically, and that like
20:11
Speaker 2: the Jedi code is almost like the law in a sense,
20:15
Speaker 2: it's this thing that can't be challenged. And you see
20:18
Speaker 2: that even after like the Jedi have gone through the
20:22
Speaker 2: Jib Council members and Masters have gone through all these
20:24
Speaker 2: things that they're kind of still really reluctant and unwilling
20:28
Speaker 2: to change, you might get like hints of that. Right,
20:31
Speaker 2: Like I think if like Masters, as Kyle, he's the
20:34
Speaker 2: he's the guy with the cool like thick mutton chop
20:37
Speaker 2: mustache that you you see you meet at the end
20:39
Speaker 2: of nur Shada, and he he says, for the acts
20:42
Speaker 2: we do to preserve the galaxy from such an arrogance,
20:45
Speaker 2: that all we do right and just I wonder if
20:48
Speaker 2: there is a counter effect that is created that strikes
20:51
Speaker 2: back at us so he's almost like willing in some
20:53
Speaker 2: sense to acknowledge that their entire philosophy and way of
20:59
Speaker 2: living that out potentially be causing problems too. But then
21:03
Speaker 2: at the end of the game, they kind of just
21:06
Speaker 2: basically do the same thing and are really unwilling to
21:08
Speaker 2: change and accept or be open to new ideas. And
21:11
Speaker 2: this is in part, not entirely, but in part like
21:14
Speaker 2: why Krea is also critical of them two from herself
21:19
Speaker 2: being a former Jedi historian actually and way in the
21:23
Speaker 2: past in her life story.
21:28
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you can't I can't really trust Crea in
21:31
Speaker 4: what she says through the game, right, like she's she's
21:34
Speaker 4: sort of narrating it a bit because you're, you know,
21:37
Speaker 4: your character is you. But the reasons why she says
21:40
Speaker 4: you should or shouldn't do things, I think often eventually
21:43
Speaker 4: you realize, oh, that was just to serve her her
21:46
Speaker 4: own ends, because if I did that, she saw that
21:49
Speaker 4: as a choice that would not help her achieve her goal.
21:54
Speaker 4: I feel like, But I I also remember that a
21:57
Speaker 4: lot of the story just seemed to be about kind
22:00
Speaker 4: of the fallout and the consequences to ordinary people in
22:04
Speaker 4: the galaxy from this conflict with the Jedi and doesn't acten.
22:10
Speaker 4: He just hates Jedi and Sith right, Like when initially
22:15
Speaker 4: I feel like he had a speech about how Jedi
22:18
Speaker 4: are terrible because they're always falling and everybody just knows
22:21
Speaker 4: this as a Jedi war because it's all the same
22:24
Speaker 4: to us. It's just this religious conflict that is just
22:28
Speaker 4: having fallout and causing havoc. Like they've been at war
22:32
Speaker 4: for like there have been lots of wars for like
22:35
Speaker 4: the past fifty years, and everything's just in the shambles
22:37
Speaker 4: at this point, right, So yeah, I thought that that aspect.
22:44
Speaker 4: I love Star Wars when it's able to get into
22:46
Speaker 4: deeper less just a hero's journey kind of a story
22:49
Speaker 4: and we can see the impact that it has on
22:52
Speaker 4: the universe around them. So that's one of the things
22:55
Speaker 4: I really liked.
22:59
Speaker 2: But enough to disciple character when you talk to him,
23:01
Speaker 2: I believe it's when you talk to him on Dan
23:03
Speaker 2: Tweed and like the archives, he actually comments on that
23:05
Speaker 2: same thing that basically just like ordinary like to ordinary people,
23:10
Speaker 2: the Jedi in the Sith are both just Jedi with
23:12
Speaker 2: different philosophies, right, It's like basically what he's saying here,
23:15
Speaker 2: and he's he's giving you. He's like a scholarly guy, right,
23:19
Speaker 2: so he's not like you can really call him like
23:21
Speaker 2: a commoner, but he's definitely like giving you like more
23:24
Speaker 2: of like a perspective of somebody who isn't really wrapped
23:27
Speaker 2: up in like the Jedi way or the like the
23:30
Speaker 2: way of the Sith in a sense, I think you
23:32
Speaker 2: did hit the nail on the head there where there
23:33
Speaker 2: is like this theme in there. It's like the effects
23:36
Speaker 2: of war, the aftermath of war, and how that affects
23:39
Speaker 2: common people, not just the people in high positions of
23:42
Speaker 2: power or the people who are powerful in the sense
23:45
Speaker 2: of possessing the force. And I mean, I think that's
23:47
Speaker 2: an interesting theme that you see point out here. I'm
23:50
Speaker 2: gonna give a very very very quick plug to the
23:55
Speaker 2: like the original like couple like Gundam anime series from
23:58
Speaker 2: like this the eighties where it's really like a theme
24:01
Speaker 2: throughout this. So no, it's not just people in Giant
24:04
Speaker 2: and Mex fighting each other, but like the effects the
24:07
Speaker 2: devastating effects of like galactic warfare is like a massive
24:11
Speaker 2: theme that's well done in like the early Gundom series
24:13
Speaker 2: as well. So I'm just gonna throw that out there
24:15
Speaker 2: I will talk about it anymore.
24:17
Speaker 4: No, I'm with you on that though. I think the
24:19
Speaker 4: creator of Gundam didn't even really want to make a cartoon.
24:22
Speaker 4: He just wanted to make this story about the hordes
24:26
Speaker 4: of warfare. And it really is a lot deeper than
24:29
Speaker 4: you would think.
24:31
Speaker 2: So Gundam podcast episode coming soon. I'll leave it at that.
24:36
Speaker 3: Something Joshua said about how this is or so and
24:39
Speaker 3: David about how this is the impact of just multiple
24:44
Speaker 3: waves of galactic war on the normal person. Whereas in
24:48
Speaker 3: the first game you go to a lot of cities
24:54
Speaker 3: of planets with really functional ecosystems and economies and towns,
25:00
Speaker 3: this game, I think the majority of planets you're on
25:03
Speaker 3: are either reconstructing from the war, like Telos, or are
25:10
Speaker 3: just devastated. Because you go back to Corbat, and Corbat
25:13
Speaker 3: had a whole Sith academy in a Sis city. This
25:15
Speaker 3: one is a devastated desert, just tombs, and then Dantuin,
25:19
Speaker 3: which was the Jedi city and Jedi temple again devastated,
25:24
Speaker 3: just settlements covered in bodies and that visceral Every planet
25:31
Speaker 3: you go to feels like it's just been ripped apart
25:33
Speaker 3: by war. And if you played the first one. Planets
25:36
Speaker 3: you went to in the last game are are just
25:39
Speaker 3: shells of what they were before. I really like that
25:42
Speaker 3: the impact that has on your just the psychological experience
25:48
Speaker 3: of playing the game.
25:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, and of course the exiled character themselves, they're ripped
25:55
Speaker 1: apart from war, from especially their own involvement in the war.
26:00
Speaker 1: They're they're a broken shell of a person, even as
26:02
Speaker 1: we have broken shells of planets and people's And maybe
26:08
Speaker 1: maybe this is very natural. In fact, I think it
26:12
Speaker 1: is very natural. And you consider the kind of post
26:14
Speaker 1: war skepticism of like the real world of the just
26:19
Speaker 1: the rise of sort of this crater kind of philosophy,
26:22
Speaker 1: this secular existentialism, this old morality just doesn't really work,
26:25
Speaker 1: like the no purpose of anything, that skepticism that that
26:28
Speaker 1: followed the Great Wars. And you know, I wonder as
26:32
Speaker 1: Kotar two gets into some of these ideas of the
26:37
Speaker 1: the impact of wars ex essentially speaking, I mean, should
26:42
Speaker 1: we take from that that the Jedi were entirely unjustified
26:48
Speaker 1: in their war with the Mandalorians? I mean, you know,
26:51
Speaker 1: at what level do we do balance out unfortunate necessity
26:56
Speaker 1: with the tragedy of war? I mean, I don't know,
26:59
Speaker 1: what do you where the Jedi where they justified in
27:03
Speaker 1: going you know, totals scorts Earth on the Mandalorians.
27:15
Speaker 3: I would personally argue, and this is partly just because
27:19
Speaker 3: of my own, you know, philosophies of just war and pacifism,
27:22
Speaker 3: But I think Kotor two and Quoture one serve as
27:27
Speaker 3: an indictment on the Jedi because, and this is partly
27:34
Speaker 3: because it was influenced by the prequels attack of the
27:37
Speaker 3: Clones and the Phantom Menace, the Jedi refused to get
27:42
Speaker 3: involved in the Mandalorian War for so long, which led
27:46
Speaker 3: to the Galaxy seeing them as being these ivory tower
27:50
Speaker 3: monks who don't care that entire worlds are getting devastated,
27:54
Speaker 3: and then Reven saves all the worlds and then turns
27:57
Speaker 3: into an even bigger threat and starts destroying his own war.
28:00
Speaker 3: And so I think that that detachment from the first War,
28:05
Speaker 3: where they're like, oh, if we get involved, we'll turn
28:07
Speaker 3: to the dark side, and it doesn't matter that entire
28:10
Speaker 3: populations of civilians are just dying for no good reason,
28:13
Speaker 3: because the Mandalorian reason for fighting is it's fun. I
28:20
Speaker 3: think that that really is why they can't see the
28:23
Speaker 3: difference between the Jedi and the Sith, because what are
28:25
Speaker 3: the Jedi doing that impacts people on a daily level.
28:29
Speaker 3: I think that the message I take away is that
28:32
Speaker 3: you should be like a light Side exile. If you
28:36
Speaker 3: take the light side path, you are trying to find
28:38
Speaker 3: the best way to be involved with normal non Jedi people,
28:43
Speaker 3: traveling around and helping people, so you're visible and you're
28:46
Speaker 3: you're doing a life where people see what the difference
28:51
Speaker 3: is in what you believe, and you don't just sit
28:54
Speaker 3: around and wield enormous power and judge people for making
28:58
Speaker 3: hard moore or choices like they judge the exile.
29:04
Speaker 1: I think it's an important point that we're talking about
29:06
Speaker 1: the games or even the movies. I feel like the
29:08
Speaker 1: Jedi don't have a super clearly defined relationship with the
29:12
Speaker 1: Republic regarding like what their role is. You know, are
29:15
Speaker 1: there are they warrior defenders or are they pacifist advisors?
29:20
Speaker 1: And I feel like sometimes they push one way or
29:22
Speaker 1: the other, but usually they push too hard one way
29:24
Speaker 1: or the other because they don't have that relationship firmly
29:27
Speaker 1: worked out. And so I think it's a good point
29:28
Speaker 1: that you know, first they're potentially guilty of not getting involved,
29:32
Speaker 1: and then they overcorrect and destroy a planet and it's
29:36
Speaker 1: like it. And I mean, I don't know how real
29:42
Speaker 1: world we're going to get with these connections, but I
29:46
Speaker 1: do think that they're at least dealing with some interesting
29:48
Speaker 1: dynamics there. I mean, I can throw some other stuff
29:54
Speaker 1: out there, but I mean, do you guys have any
29:55
Speaker 1: other questions or thoughts that you want to introduce.
30:00
Speaker 4: I saw some people online talking about how they thought
30:04
Speaker 4: that this game successfully told the story the kind of
30:09
Speaker 4: story that the movie The Last Jedi failed at doing.
30:13
Speaker 4: And if you guys have more because I don't remember
30:17
Speaker 4: The Last Jedi well enough because I did not particularly
30:19
Speaker 4: like it. I saw it a couple of times, but
30:22
Speaker 4: to me, it was that whole trilogy. This is a
30:25
Speaker 4: bit of an aside, but you know, when you were
30:29
Speaker 4: a kid in school, did you ever do the assignment
30:31
Speaker 4: where you had a few minutes to write a part
30:33
Speaker 4: of a story and then pass it to the person
30:35
Speaker 4: behind you and they had to write more. But you know,
30:37
Speaker 4: there's a row of like five kids and then the
30:39
Speaker 4: third kid just says and everybody died, and then the
30:43
Speaker 4: next guy has to be like but they actually didn't
30:46
Speaker 4: and just continue the story. That's how I feel about
30:49
Speaker 4: that second movie and that trilogy. But anyway, I'm just
30:53
Speaker 4: curious what y'all think they meant by that.
30:57
Speaker 2: I am, I'm glad you brought that connection up, David,
31:00
Speaker 2: and I don't I I think I watched The Last Jedi.
31:04
Speaker 2: I saw it like the day it came out, right
31:06
Speaker 2: like I did with The Force Awakens, and even like
31:11
Speaker 2: some of the prequels when I was a kid, and
31:15
Speaker 2: I remember like watching the trailers for The Last Jedi
31:19
Speaker 2: before it came out and thinking this might be the
31:23
Speaker 2: movie where a big blockbuster Star Wars movie where they
31:29
Speaker 2: actually explore something different in like the philosophy of the
31:35
Speaker 2: Jedi and the syth right, and I was hoping they'd
31:37
Speaker 2: be like, you know, you're kind of like I think
31:39
Speaker 2: they had like these image images of like Luke, and
31:42
Speaker 2: he's kind of like, you know, he's like gray and
31:44
Speaker 2: bearded and scraggly, and he seems like he might have
31:47
Speaker 2: like a more almost like gray like Jolie Bindo, like
31:53
Speaker 2: good more gray Jedi or even like I always thought
31:56
Speaker 2: like it would have been more interesting in episode one
31:58
Speaker 2: if they like got into Kuai Gun's philosophy more because
32:01
Speaker 2: I wanted more depth with Qui Gon. I thought he
32:04
Speaker 2: was an interesting idea that just wasn't wasn't executed well
32:09
Speaker 2: or its certainly not just maybe wasn't given enough time
32:11
Speaker 2: to talk more about what he actually believed about the
32:15
Speaker 2: Jedi in the Sith. But there were these connections there, right,
32:18
Speaker 2: and then instead of like doing something interesting with that,
32:22
Speaker 2: it just seemed like a complete yeah, like it just
32:27
Speaker 2: there's a lot I could say about the Last Jedi,
32:29
Speaker 2: and I haven't seen it since it came out to
32:31
Speaker 2: be honest, so I don't have a fresh mind on it.
32:33
Speaker 2: But I was I was very disappointed that it wasn't
32:36
Speaker 2: anything like the really the profound ideas exporting koetor two.
32:41
Speaker 2: I was very disappointed by that. I thought it was
32:44
Speaker 2: really like subversion in all of the wrong ways, where
32:47
Speaker 2: I think Kotor two it wasn't just subverting expectations for
32:51
Speaker 2: the sake of doing that, but it was actually trying
32:53
Speaker 2: to provide some interesting commentaries on both just philosophy and
32:59
Speaker 2: Jedal but also just the philosophy of Star Wars at
33:03
Speaker 2: large and especially those of the Jedi in the Sith,
33:06
Speaker 2: and kind of providing some different, uh different like avenues
33:11
Speaker 2: for how to explore that or even even like almost
33:13
Speaker 2: like a different like via media just in general for that.
33:16
Speaker 2: So I think there are definitely connections there. I can't
33:19
Speaker 2: speak too much to them, maybe Ian or Andrew can,
33:21
Speaker 2: because I haven't seen that movie in a long time,
33:24
Speaker 2: but I think I agree with you that it was
33:26
Speaker 2: really like, it looked like it was gonna be something
33:29
Speaker 2: different and interesting and then it was just really a
33:34
Speaker 2: disappointing kind of epic fail in my opinion, of doing
33:38
Speaker 2: that not to dog on episode eight or turn this
33:41
Speaker 2: podcast into that, and maybe we'll do that later.
33:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I can see the connections there in
33:48
Speaker 1: that both Kotor two and Last Jedi provide strong critiques
33:53
Speaker 1: of the Jedi and demonstrating their failings. I mean the
33:57
Speaker 1: Last Jedi we find out more of the origin story
34:02
Speaker 1: for Kylo Wren, that basically he's a failed padawan of
34:06
Speaker 1: Luke and that that's what led Luke to abandon his
34:10
Speaker 1: attempt to recreate the Jedi. And so there are those critiques,
34:14
Speaker 1: and then in that what I find to be the
34:16
Speaker 1: most abysmal scene of that whole movie is when gas
34:19
Speaker 1: Yota shows up and destroys the old Jedi temple and
34:22
Speaker 1: sacred texts and says, just burn it down and you know,
34:24
Speaker 1: go be yourself or something. People trying to correct be
34:30
Speaker 1: on that and say that, oh, but you know, Ray
34:32
Speaker 1: had some of the text with her that misses the point,
34:34
Speaker 1: like the image there is Gostiyoda is showing up to
34:38
Speaker 1: destroy the foundations of the Jedi, so I guess they
34:40
Speaker 1: can start fresh. And at that point we're no longer
34:44
Speaker 1: just creating the Jedi who. We're no longer criticizing the
34:48
Speaker 1: Jedi who happened to be in charge. We're not criticizing
34:50
Speaker 1: just the institution. We're criticizing the very foundation of the institution.
34:54
Speaker 1: And at that point, I think that what the last
34:56
Speaker 1: Jedi is doing is they're uprooting the very identity of
35:00
Speaker 1: the Jedi, whereas in Kotor two we're getting some strong
35:03
Speaker 1: criticisms of the institution where we see, you know, where
35:06
Speaker 1: they went wrong and like they are under judgment, and
35:09
Speaker 1: you know, that's something that I that I can appreciate.
35:11
Speaker 1: You know, same thing about what Qui Gon kind of
35:14
Speaker 1: introduces to the canon that we see that the Jedi
35:17
Speaker 1: are not identical with the Light Side, but at their best,
35:21
Speaker 1: they are servants of the Light Side or representatives of
35:24
Speaker 1: the Light Side. But as representatives sometimes they can fail
35:28
Speaker 1: in that task. And I think demonstrating that sometimes they
35:31
Speaker 1: can fail is a good thing. But saying we need
35:34
Speaker 1: to uproot them at their very foundations, go back to
35:37
Speaker 1: the original Jedi temple and demolish it, at that point,
35:40
Speaker 1: we're doing something similar but in a much more subversive,
35:45
Speaker 1: like postmodern deconstruction is kind of way. And so I
35:49
Speaker 1: think that making those connections is interesting. I didn't make
35:52
Speaker 1: them before you brought that up, David, but I think
35:54
Speaker 1: that I think it's a good way of framing it
35:56
Speaker 1: that Kotor two kind of does what the last Jedi did,
35:58
Speaker 1: but better and in a more wholesome, upbuilding sort of way. Yeah. Interesting, Ian.
36:10
Speaker 1: Do you have anything to add to that.
36:15
Speaker 3: I think I would say that whereas in one of
36:19
Speaker 3: the biggest problems of the sequel trilogy is the villains
36:22
Speaker 3: are so undefined, and in my opinion, lazy Crea is
36:27
Speaker 3: is there is so much work put into CREA's thoughts
36:30
Speaker 3: and how they work and how they fit in Star Wars,
36:33
Speaker 3: and there's so much room in the game for you
36:37
Speaker 3: to figure out how much you agree with her and
36:41
Speaker 3: how much you disagree, because I don't think you're meant
36:43
Speaker 3: to come away and say, oh, Creia was wrong with
36:45
Speaker 3: everything you're supposed to think. She's a liar. She's deeply
36:49
Speaker 3: traumatized and furious. She refuses to take responsibility for her
36:55
Speaker 3: own actions, but she does recognize some real old problems
37:00
Speaker 3: with both the Jedi and the Sith, and her traumatized
37:06
Speaker 3: perspective I think does often, you know, require us to
37:12
Speaker 3: look at our own ideas of the good, you know,
37:15
Speaker 3: return to the odyssey of what do we do with
37:18
Speaker 3: the idea of how can a good God allow suffering?
37:23
Speaker 3: Now the force, even though I think there is a
37:26
Speaker 3: strong argument to be made that you can look at
37:28
Speaker 3: it in an Augustinian perspective that the light side is
37:33
Speaker 3: much more akin to the Christian God that it is
37:35
Speaker 3: to a zen Buddhists, light and dark balanced yin and yang.
37:41
Speaker 3: I don't want to go too far and say this
37:43
Speaker 3: is straight up a Christian world, because it isn't. But
37:46
Speaker 3: I think as Christians we can look at it. And
37:48
Speaker 3: Krea in particular is very much Nietzsche in the idea
37:53
Speaker 3: that she wants to kill God, you know, Nietsch's like,
37:56
Speaker 3: God is dead and we killed him, but he doesn't
37:59
Speaker 3: as necessarily think that's a good thing. And Crea likewise,
38:03
Speaker 3: is she wants to kill the force, like that's her
38:06
Speaker 3: master plan. But it's more nihilism and despair than something
38:11
Speaker 3: that's aspirational, because there's not going to be anything left
38:15
Speaker 3: if she wins. She's not really going to have a
38:18
Speaker 3: galaxy that makes her happy. She's just so broken by
38:23
Speaker 3: her suffering and betrayal. And I think that we can
38:26
Speaker 3: really see that in the way people respond to God
38:30
Speaker 3: in tragedy, you know, the whole theology of the Holocaust
38:34
Speaker 3: that was so difficult to deal with after World War Two,
38:38
Speaker 3: and theology of dealing with major terrorist attacks after nine
38:43
Speaker 3: to eleven. I think we can really see a lot
38:46
Speaker 3: in Creya that we should be aware of in our
38:49
Speaker 3: own responses to God.
38:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely think that what makes Creya so compelling,
38:55
Speaker 1: or one of the things is that she's obviously the
38:59
Speaker 1: villain of the story becomes pretty obvious, but as you said,
39:03
Speaker 1: I mean, some of what she says is true and
39:05
Speaker 1: it's worth considering, which is what makes her so compelling
39:08
Speaker 1: but also so dangerous, right, because there is some truth.
39:12
Speaker 1: There is some validity to her critiques, even though she
39:16
Speaker 1: doesn't really have something I guess standard to use to
39:19
Speaker 1: critique the Force or Jedi or whatever. But nonetheless there
39:24
Speaker 1: is some validity to her critiques. Just says with Nietzsche, honestly,
39:27
Speaker 1: you know, when he comes onto the scene and he
39:29
Speaker 1: says God is dead and we have killed him, he's
39:31
Speaker 1: not saying, you know, as he said. You know, he's
39:33
Speaker 1: not saying like this is a great thing we should celebrate.
39:36
Speaker 1: He's not even saying we should go off and kill
39:38
Speaker 1: God and get rid of the vestiges of religion. I mean,
39:39
Speaker 1: functionally he does say that, but in his declaration of
39:42
Speaker 1: the Death of God, he's basically saying that if we
39:44
Speaker 1: look back at the history of modern thinking, you know,
39:48
Speaker 1: going back to I mean Descartes, really, but go back
39:50
Speaker 1: to the beginning of the modern era, and we've been
39:53
Speaker 1: functionally living like atheists for a long time. Let's start
39:56
Speaker 1: to do that more responsibly and more intentionally, you know.
40:00
Speaker 1: And so you know, we still have these vestiges of religion,
40:03
Speaker 1: but they don't really carry the same significance they once
40:06
Speaker 1: did regard the practical way that we're thinking. The practical
40:08
Speaker 1: way we're living, the way that we're organizing society, and
40:11
Speaker 1: so what we need to do is, you know, tear
40:13
Speaker 1: down these remaining pillars and just deal with what we have.
40:17
Speaker 1: And with that, he really became a profit of postmodernism,
40:23
Speaker 1: and so, you know, building off of that legacy, or
40:26
Speaker 1: at least lack thereof that void of a legacy that
40:28
Speaker 1: he left us. You know, now we get people like
40:31
Speaker 1: Jean Paul Sart who says like, there is nothing except
40:35
Speaker 1: for whatever you choose to create, and so that Nietzschean
40:39
Speaker 1: sorcery and idea, that's exactly what cray is trying to propose, right.
40:42
Speaker 1: She's trying to say, let's get rid of this this
40:45
Speaker 1: kind of false image of purpose, this false image of
40:50
Speaker 1: the good that has been placed upon us, and instead
40:53
Speaker 1: internalize that. You know, as Nietzsche says, essentially, the throne
40:57
Speaker 1: of God is empty, so go take your seat, right,
40:59
Speaker 1: That's basic what he's saying. Where we get this idea
41:02
Speaker 1: of the will to power, that those who are going
41:04
Speaker 1: to live a life of purpose are those who are
41:07
Speaker 1: going to will that purpose into being through great strength.
41:11
Speaker 1: And that's why we see in Crayon that she doesn't
41:15
Speaker 1: just want the exile to go off and be a
41:18
Speaker 1: syth And it's like, you know, if you take the
41:20
Speaker 1: absolute dark path where you just do like the worst
41:22
Speaker 1: thing at every move, she'll critique you for that too, saying,
41:26
Speaker 1: as Sart would say, that you're living according to bad faith. Here,
41:29
Speaker 1: you're just adopting an ideology rather than taking responsibility for
41:33
Speaker 1: your every action. And the thing is, I think that
41:37
Speaker 1: when Sart says some things like that, like you need
41:39
Speaker 1: to take responsibility for your actions, don't just blame it
41:42
Speaker 1: on an external ideology, I think he's saying something important,
41:46
Speaker 1: But the same time he's saying it important from the
41:50
Speaker 1: middle of a black hole. And so it's you take
41:53
Speaker 1: what he says and you're gonna get sucked into nothingness.
41:55
Speaker 1: Which is why when you read the psychic existentialist like
41:58
Speaker 1: they're so depressing. I mean, even as sorry, we'll talk
42:02
Speaker 1: about the life of strength and like radical freedom, he'll
42:07
Speaker 1: also say things like in your radical freedom, you're inevitably
42:11
Speaker 1: lost to despair and abandonment and forlornment, and that's just
42:14
Speaker 1: what human existence is, which kind of makes the question
42:18
Speaker 1: if their philosophy is true, why believe it? If there
42:23
Speaker 1: are no standards like what benefit do you get from that?
42:26
Speaker 1: And and so I just I love how Crea, the
42:30
Speaker 1: obvious villain of the story, takes such a secularist, postmodern perspective.
42:38
Speaker 1: I think it's very wholesome that regard. I just I
42:44
Speaker 1: can monologue against second existentialism for for a while. I'll
42:47
Speaker 1: cut it off there.
42:51
Speaker 2: Did we want to talk about the the other villains,
42:55
Speaker 2: the other like obvious villains of the story, but the
42:58
Speaker 2: ones who are actually really perceived as the villains for
43:01
Speaker 2: most of the story, because I did want to make
43:05
Speaker 2: sure we do talk about Darth Scion at some point,
43:08
Speaker 2: because I think he's extremely interesting as well, right, I mean,
43:13
Speaker 2: at the beginning of this discussion, Ian mentioned something about
43:18
Speaker 2: Paragas kind of having like this uh, this mood and
43:23
Speaker 2: tone of really like almost like a Star Wars horror
43:26
Speaker 2: story type of type of type of on Beyonce and
43:31
Speaker 2: even just in the way it's even the way the
43:35
Speaker 2: event's unfold right, And I think there's a sense where
43:38
Speaker 2: like I remember as a kid, like being like terrified,
43:41
Speaker 2: like the first time, like Darth's Scion just appears because
43:44
Speaker 2: he's pretty much doesn't played this game like he's just
43:47
Speaker 2: he's like gray, almost like charcoal. He's got just like
43:51
Speaker 2: cuts all over himself. He's got like a gouged out
43:53
Speaker 2: dead eye, like he's he's objectively gross looking, like just
43:58
Speaker 2: to put it a little bit bluntly. But there's all
44:02
Speaker 2: we could probably say about him. But I think for
44:04
Speaker 2: me one of the most interesting parts is he he's
44:06
Speaker 2: killed a ton of Jedi, right, He's like the big
44:08
Speaker 2: baddie Sith guy for most of the story in a sense,
44:12
Speaker 2: I mean, Darth Neils is in a sense too. We
44:15
Speaker 2: can also get to but I can't remember if this
44:19
Speaker 2: is like a dialogue that always comes up, or if
44:22
Speaker 2: it's something you have to like draw out of him
44:23
Speaker 2: at the end. But after you defeat him on Malachor five,
44:27
Speaker 2: which is like the last point in the game, you
44:30
Speaker 2: fight him, you defeat him, and I know you can
44:34
Speaker 2: definitely at least ask him if it was like worth
44:37
Speaker 2: it to him to basically do all of this, And
44:41
Speaker 2: I have the quote pulled up, but he basically says
44:44
Speaker 2: it was not no matter how many I killed, there
44:47
Speaker 2: was no end to the pain that bleeds, the force
44:49
Speaker 2: tore through my flesh. I am glad to leave this
44:52
Speaker 2: place at last. Like that's what he That's how he
44:55
Speaker 2: responds to you, asking if it was worth it to
44:57
Speaker 2: try to satisfy that longing to kind of satiate his
45:03
Speaker 2: appetite for revenge and his sense. And he's kind of
45:06
Speaker 2: represents the idea that like, revenge is not satisfying, revenge
45:12
Speaker 2: is not satiating to the soul, right, Like he just
45:17
Speaker 2: and he the way he physically looks is symbolic and
45:21
Speaker 2: representative that in of itself in a way. But I
45:25
Speaker 2: think that quote in that conversation at the end really
45:28
Speaker 2: just hits the nail at the end of that. Like
45:29
Speaker 2: he lived this whole dimension at the end of his
45:32
Speaker 2: life trying to like fill that hunger and void of
45:36
Speaker 2: basically just slaughtering Jedi and others and trying to hunt
45:41
Speaker 2: you down and cray down in a sense too. And
45:46
Speaker 2: at the end of his life he's dying and he's
45:47
Speaker 2: just like, yeah, it wasn't it wasn't satisfying. It didn't work,
45:51
Speaker 2: and that's that's it. That's the end for him. Like
45:53
Speaker 2: he lives his entire life or the last arc of
45:56
Speaker 2: his life trying to satisfy that and he failed because
46:01
Speaker 2: it always fails. You can't satisfy the soul with revenge
46:05
Speaker 2: you can't.
46:08
Speaker 4: And he's kind of like he's achieved that Sith goal
46:12
Speaker 4: of immortality, right, Like he's using the Force to literally
46:16
Speaker 4: hold his body together, isn't he? And so the other
46:20
Speaker 4: the other one's Nihilus, right, which understanding that name is
46:25
Speaker 4: pretty obvious. But he's kind of the opposite, like he's
46:28
Speaker 4: he has no body, he's almost he's just an entity. Really,
46:31
Speaker 4: that's just like consuming the force, the living force and people.
46:37
Speaker 4: It's interesting that they kind of dualism between those two villains.
46:43
Speaker 4: But yeah, I don't have much more to say. I
46:45
Speaker 4: just thought that was they're they're well designed characters, I think.
46:50
Speaker 2: Yeah.
46:50
Speaker 1: I think that they're both very unique compared to the
46:53
Speaker 1: Star Wars buildins that you get elsewhere in that they're
46:56
Speaker 1: both essentially entities of the of the Force. I mean,
46:59
Speaker 1: Sion you knows, you said he's basically zombie that's held
47:01
Speaker 1: together by the Force. You got Nilas, who is barely
47:05
Speaker 1: even a person. He's just a hunger at this point,
47:07
Speaker 1: just consuming planets and whatever else. And you know, in
47:11
Speaker 1: many ways like that they're different, but also they're very
47:13
Speaker 1: similar and that you know, they're both trying to consume
47:16
Speaker 1: something to give them a sense of purpose that they
47:18
Speaker 1: can never find in what it is that they're consuming,
47:21
Speaker 1: you know, because they both identify their life ultimately with
47:24
Speaker 1: an absence. Zion identifies his life with pain, which is
47:28
Speaker 1: the absence of health or absence of pleasure. Neilas he
47:32
Speaker 1: satisfies himself on I mean hunger really like, that's how
47:37
Speaker 1: he identifies himself as hunger, which is the lack of saciety.
47:41
Speaker 1: And so you know, they both identify themselves by a negative,
47:44
Speaker 1: and so that's all that they are possible, the only
47:47
Speaker 1: thing they are able to receive. It's like in We're
47:50
Speaker 1: doing our book club on Augustin's Confessions, and Augustine mentions
47:53
Speaker 1: at one point that in Our Blindness, talking about the
47:59
Speaker 1: impact of sin, he said, in our blindness, we glory
48:01
Speaker 1: in the fact that we can't see. We treat that
48:03
Speaker 1: as if that's some how a strength of ours and
48:06
Speaker 1: because of that very reason, well, we can't see because
48:09
Speaker 1: we don't want to be healed. And so I think
48:12
Speaker 1: we definitely see that playing out in the different kinds
48:14
Speaker 1: of hunger that we get in these two villains in particular.
48:24
Speaker 3: I think it's also really cool how some of your
48:27
Speaker 3: companions and your own story really mirror the three villains.
48:32
Speaker 3: Of course, the Exile and Krea have that forced bond
48:35
Speaker 3: from the beginning, and their journeys of rejection and betrayal
48:38
Speaker 3: from their institutions intentionally mirror each other. But you know,
48:42
Speaker 3: you have Aton and if you have the restored content
48:45
Speaker 3: mod that fixes some of the problems with the ending
48:48
Speaker 3: in the game. On the PC, he's paralleled with Scion,
48:52
Speaker 3: you know, his vengeance and his redemption quest versus Scions
48:56
Speaker 3: living only like holding himself together literally with the four
49:00
Speaker 3: suggests to kill people he views as wronging him. You know,
49:04
Speaker 3: that's a really powerful parallel. And then the character of Visus,
49:09
Speaker 3: who was held prisoner by Nihilis for so long after
49:12
Speaker 3: he ate her world and you have to tear her
49:15
Speaker 3: out of this suicidal, self destructive worldview, and then she
49:21
Speaker 3: confronts him in the AIRD. Like these parallels and connections
49:25
Speaker 3: between your character and your party members and the villains
49:28
Speaker 3: I think adds so much emotional an thematic depth to
49:33
Speaker 3: what they represent like you. Of course, in the first game,
49:36
Speaker 3: you have the connection between Revin and Malik and Basil,
49:39
Speaker 3: and that's a nice Master Apprentice betrayal Triumvirate relationship. But
49:46
Speaker 3: I think the Sith triumvirate and the Coach are two
49:49
Speaker 3: characters are much deeper. There's so much more meaning to
49:53
Speaker 3: delve from those relationships and those parallels.
50:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, as you mentioned, you get Visa smart her or
50:04
Speaker 1: she is kind of suicidal in wake of her time
50:08
Speaker 1: with Nilis, and it just another example of how they
50:13
Speaker 1: demonstrate this will to power idea leave them empty, and
50:19
Speaker 1: it leaves destructure in their wake. And I don't have
50:23
Speaker 1: a whole lot to add to that, but I just
50:24
Speaker 1: think that that is a significant element of her dynamic,
50:27
Speaker 1: in particular that she demonstrates that anything else anyone wants
50:36
Speaker 1: to throw in there.
50:39
Speaker 4: One of the main things that I remembered from the
50:41
Speaker 4: game was the whole Sith academy and how just the
50:45
Speaker 4: idea of the Sith having an academy seems antithetical to
50:49
Speaker 4: the Sith way of thinking. And then but when you're
50:52
Speaker 4: in that school, if I remember right, it's just nothing
50:56
Speaker 4: but backstabbing and attempting to take everybody out. And I
51:00
Speaker 4: just thought that was kind of a funny, funny idea.
51:03
Speaker 4: And how you know, no matter what path you take,
51:05
Speaker 4: you've got to enter the Sith Academy. Right, So it's
51:07
Speaker 4: either under false pretenses or or or just because you
51:13
Speaker 4: are following that dark path.
51:15
Speaker 2: Is that?
51:16
Speaker 4: Is that right?
51:18
Speaker 2: So that's actually in the first Kotor game. I'm not
51:20
Speaker 2: sure if you were thinking of is it really? Yeah,
51:24
Speaker 2: So you go to to the planet Corvette and Kotor one,
51:27
Speaker 2: and then you have to enter the academy. That's kind
51:30
Speaker 2: of like as a means of getting into one of
51:32
Speaker 2: the tombs that exists behind the academy and which the
51:35
Speaker 2: only way to get to it is to go through
51:37
Speaker 2: the academy. But when you go, you go back to
51:39
Speaker 2: corbet on Kotor two, and it's very desolate, like the
51:43
Speaker 2: academy is unsurprisingly based on their own Sith philosophy, is
51:48
Speaker 2: it's basically like internally self destructed and on itself, like
51:52
Speaker 2: it's abandoned. But like you do raise a good point
51:56
Speaker 2: there and Kotar one basically this is like this is idea,
52:01
Speaker 2: the Sith idea of like you know, the two it's
52:04
Speaker 2: like you have like the two big dogs in a sense,
52:06
Speaker 2: and it's like you have like the Sith Lord and
52:08
Speaker 2: then like the Sith Lord's apprentice. In a way, it's
52:11
Speaker 2: kind of like the Darth City is Darth Vader complex
52:16
Speaker 2: or conception, and even in the Academy, like there's this
52:20
Speaker 2: the head the head Han show of the Academy, and
52:22
Speaker 2: then there's the the Twelck girl who's like the the
52:26
Speaker 2: basically number two in that situation, and she comes to
52:30
Speaker 2: you at the end and she's like, Yeah, I've got
52:31
Speaker 2: this great idea to backstab my master, so I could
52:33
Speaker 2: be become number one. You're gonna become my number two
52:36
Speaker 2: because you're powerful and you'd make a great like asset
52:39
Speaker 2: to this. But then the whole idea is like you're like,
52:42
Speaker 2: if that's true, like it would make sense for you
52:45
Speaker 2: to come after her one day. And there's different like
52:48
Speaker 2: options for how you can play that out. And I
52:50
Speaker 2: know this is a koet or two podcast, so I
52:52
Speaker 2: don't want to grant about kode or one too much,
52:54
Speaker 2: but basically you can play that out in different ways
52:56
Speaker 2: where like you can like join one to kill the other,
52:59
Speaker 2: or you can even the path I like to take
53:01
Speaker 2: on the light side is like I just you know,
53:02
Speaker 2: go one v two and end up taking them both
53:05
Speaker 2: out for the for the greater good in the sense.
53:07
Speaker 2: But yeah, there is I mean, that's that is you know,
53:11
Speaker 2: certainly a valid criticism of the Sith ideology there that
53:15
Speaker 2: I think that probably doesn't play out in some ways
53:16
Speaker 2: in Kotor two.
53:18
Speaker 4: Gotcha? Yeah, wow, I really thought it was in this
53:20
Speaker 4: game that just goes to show I need I need
53:23
Speaker 4: to play them again. But so you do go back
53:26
Speaker 4: to the same location into But is that is that
53:29
Speaker 4: the final area?
53:32
Speaker 3: You know?
53:32
Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be as far as I remember,
53:34
Speaker 2: so obviously in these games, like for listeners who don't know,
53:37
Speaker 2: like you can a lot of the planets that are
53:40
Speaker 2: that you go to throughout the vast majority of the
53:42
Speaker 2: game are like you can go to them in certain orders, right,
53:47
Speaker 2: so I know I usually go there towards the end
53:50
Speaker 2: or that's just strategic. I like to go to uh
53:53
Speaker 2: nor Should, especially to get like a lot of the
53:55
Speaker 2: party members in the h K forty seven Droid parts personally,
53:59
Speaker 2: plus NR I was just like my favorite of like
54:01
Speaker 2: those those planets. Personally, I think it's the most interesting
54:05
Speaker 2: in the way that it's written. But yeah, you can
54:08
Speaker 2: go there like at any time as far as I.
54:10
Speaker 4: Know, gotcha, Well, I do remember I remember choosing the
54:15
Speaker 4: final battle, I stood outside of of the agro range
54:20
Speaker 4: and just through the lightsaber, and they never reacted to what.
54:23
Speaker 1: It was doing.
54:24
Speaker 4: It died. So probably not the best method, but I
54:28
Speaker 4: think I may have struggled with it finally discovered that.
54:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, the cheesing mechanics are probably real. Throughout this whole series.
54:35
Speaker 2: You can kind of just like run around and heal
54:37
Speaker 2: and regenerate force when you fight, like Malik in the
54:39
Speaker 2: first game. But yeah, you can like basically isolate Treya's
54:42
Speaker 2: three or Darth Treya's three lightsabers and fight them one
54:47
Speaker 2: on one and then it's way easier if you want
54:49
Speaker 2: to go that route. You could argue it's strategic in
54:51
Speaker 2: a sense.
54:52
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, hopefully they go a different route when if
54:55
Speaker 1: they ever do a cinematic adapt patient they'll be very antiplomatic.
55:01
Speaker 1: But yeah, I do think the dynamics of the scythe Academy,
55:05
Speaker 1: going from the first game to the Ruins in the
55:06
Speaker 1: second game, it's just another good demonstration of how evil
55:11
Speaker 1: fragments rather than unites. And you see this a lot
55:14
Speaker 1: in Tolkien's writing as well. You know, you get a
55:17
Speaker 1: sour amount of many colors who takes the white Light
55:20
Speaker 1: and breaks it into different disparate pieces, or the fact that,
55:23
Speaker 1: you know, the Orcs are always at each other's throats,
55:26
Speaker 1: like quite literally, like they're always fighting and killing each other.
55:28
Speaker 1: Because the evil divide, it isolates the fragments, whereas the
55:33
Speaker 1: good unites, it brings together. And so I do think
55:36
Speaker 1: that the just untenable nature of the Sith Academy is
55:41
Speaker 1: just a good representation of that reality, that it's just
55:44
Speaker 1: it's it's not a tenable academy. We literally have everybody
55:48
Speaker 1: just trying to kill each other and get to the
55:50
Speaker 1: top position that this you really can't have just an
55:55
Speaker 1: inverted Jedi order, that that's not a thing, it's it's
55:59
Speaker 1: it's falling to nothingness, so substance behind it. And so
56:02
Speaker 1: I do think that that's a good dynamic dealing with
56:05
Speaker 1: the ruins of that institution.
56:08
Speaker 2: Parallels to the postmodern American state university system. Andrew question mark,
56:15
Speaker 2: Oh gosh.
56:16
Speaker 1: I don't. I can't publish. Yeah, I cannot. Uh try
56:24
Speaker 1: to get me, try to get me fired.
56:30
Speaker 3: I mean we could we could talk about the mainstream
56:33
Speaker 3: Christian denominations instead. No one's going to get fired for that.
56:40
Speaker 1: No, No, we don't need to talk about the Episcopalians here.
56:43
Speaker 5: Oh sorry, Hey, actually weirdly enough, I have I have
56:52
Speaker 5: a connection here and this isn't going to like uh,
56:55
Speaker 5: I don't think caused any inter denominational squabbles.
56:58
Speaker 2: But a really interesting character that I think a character
57:02
Speaker 2: that's super underrated in this game is the character Godo.
57:07
Speaker 2: And obviously that's like the spherical black droid that follows
57:12
Speaker 2: you around for most of the game. However, there's the
57:15
Speaker 2: hologram of the character Godo, and he's basically he's a
57:19
Speaker 2: very alternative perspective to like everyone else in this entire game,
57:23
Speaker 2: because he sees the Jedi in a Sith. And whether
57:27
Speaker 2: he's right or wrong, and this can be debated, but
57:29
Speaker 2: maybe there's some truth to what he's saying, but he
57:31
Speaker 2: sees the Jedi in the Sith, really, and all this
57:35
Speaker 2: destruction that comes between the two as some sort of
57:40
Speaker 2: like intersectarian religious conflict in a sense. And I do
57:46
Speaker 2: have a quote from him pulled up if you can't tell.
57:47
Speaker 2: I watched the scenes on YouTube to prepare for this
57:50
Speaker 2: because I wanted to be somewhat non extemporaneous. But I'm
57:55
Speaker 2: just gonna read this quote because I think it's fascinating.
57:58
Speaker 2: So when you're talking to him about what's going on
58:00
Speaker 2: in his interest in this conflict. He says this, I
58:04
Speaker 2: do not wish to stop the Sith anymore than I
58:07
Speaker 2: wish to stop the Jedi. It is simply important to
58:09
Speaker 2: me that the infighting among these Jedi religious branches be
58:12
Speaker 2: resolved so the galaxy, So the galaxy may be put
58:16
Speaker 2: back together. I do not care which one triumphs. I
58:19
Speaker 2: only want the universe to settle down for a while,
58:23
Speaker 2: catch its breath. All these constant crises are getting somewhat repetitive.
58:29
Speaker 2: So he's really he's critical, and as far as I know,
58:32
Speaker 2: he's almost like, I think he has like some sort
58:35
Speaker 2: of like more maybe like economic somewhat utilitarian esque interest
58:41
Speaker 2: in the galaxy. But there's a point to what he's
58:43
Speaker 2: saying where he's like, hey, like these wars are self destructive.
58:46
Speaker 2: They reduce like the the quality of life and cause
58:50
Speaker 2: a lot of problems for not just the people at
58:53
Speaker 2: the top, but also just the common man, like the peasants,
58:56
Speaker 2: basically everybody in the galaxy. And he's like, I just
58:59
Speaker 2: want somebody to win out already, basically so that the
59:02
Speaker 2: maybe like the galactic economy can flourish and that we
59:06
Speaker 2: can live better lives in a sense, right, And I
59:09
Speaker 2: kind of think back to like, and I don't want
59:11
Speaker 2: to like obviously get into this dimension of our reality
59:14
Speaker 2: and our past in a sense, but I kind of
59:16
Speaker 2: think of like it's like in like the seventeenth century,
59:19
Speaker 2: a lot of like the conflicts in England between different
59:23
Speaker 2: factions you have, like you know, eventually the Whigs and
59:26
Speaker 2: the Tories, but even like the conflicts between like the
59:29
Speaker 2: Parliamentarians and the uh those who are supportive of like
59:33
Speaker 2: the monarch Charles the First and eventually Charles the Second.
59:36
Speaker 2: I mean, just even like the general like Roman Catholic
59:39
Speaker 2: versus Protestant conflicts through all of Europe and especially in England, right,
59:43
Speaker 2: And there's a point to that where it's just like,
59:46
Speaker 2: you know, how can we all just like get along
59:48
Speaker 2: and coexist in a sense and have disagreement but be
59:53
Speaker 2: be unified in a way, and like how can And
59:56
Speaker 2: that does obviously play out in some positive ways throughout
1:00:00
Speaker 2: the History act or that, but I think he raises
1:00:02
Speaker 2: a valid question and point about like how can we
1:00:05
Speaker 2: just get along? Or maybe even he wants one or
1:00:10
Speaker 2: the other to win out And that's like that provokes
1:00:12
Speaker 2: the question of like would it be better for the
1:00:14
Speaker 2: Jedi and the Sith, the Jedi or the Sith to
1:00:17
Speaker 2: win out right, And maybe that's a criticism of philosophy,
1:00:20
Speaker 2: is that he he doesn't really care which one wins.
1:00:23
Speaker 2: And that's that can be problematic, right because like we
1:00:25
Speaker 2: don't ultimately want the Sith to win out. But I
1:00:28
Speaker 2: think he's a really underrated character and I think there's
1:00:31
Speaker 2: a lot to be even just discussed there.
1:00:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's an interesting point. I mean,
1:00:42
Speaker 1: perhaps you could we argue that he is the voice
1:00:43
Speaker 1: of secularism really, you know, that that that mentality of
1:00:50
Speaker 1: like I don't really care about the Jedi, I don't
1:00:52
Speaker 1: really care about the Sith. I mean, you know, you know,
1:00:55
Speaker 1: they can go on practicing their little religion or whatever
1:00:59
Speaker 1: as long as there'sn't really impact me or the global order.
1:01:03
Speaker 1: You know that it's kind of that Peace of Westphalia
1:01:06
Speaker 1: idea less end the fighting between the Catholics and the
1:01:08
Speaker 1: Protestants and basically just everyone keep to themselves. You know,
1:01:12
Speaker 1: we're not really going to deal with this on the
1:01:13
Speaker 1: public stage anymore. You know, there's some benefit in that
1:01:17
Speaker 1: in that, I mean, sectarian conflicts I'm often aren't good,
1:01:22
Speaker 1: like war often is not good for At the same time,
1:01:27
Speaker 1: do we want to repress this significance of ideologies essentially
1:01:31
Speaker 1: say that anything calls the conflict is bad. I think
1:01:33
Speaker 1: that's a dangerous position as well. You know, I don't
1:01:36
Speaker 1: always know what the best path is forward, but I
1:01:39
Speaker 1: think that we could see some positive as well as
1:01:41
Speaker 1: definitely some long term negative ramifications of that kind of thinking,
1:01:45
Speaker 1: where we're just going to limit the significance of ideas altogether.
1:01:51
Speaker 4: And there's a prevailing attitude amongst certain people you know
1:01:55
Speaker 4: that will say religion is the source of all war,
1:01:58
Speaker 4: as the wars wouldn't be fought without religion. I'm not
1:02:02
Speaker 4: advocating for South Park, but I do remember there was
1:02:04
Speaker 4: a particular episode where, you know, I think Richard Dawkins
1:02:08
Speaker 4: was saying that, and then one of the characters ends
1:02:11
Speaker 4: up in the future and it's just two atheist factions
1:02:14
Speaker 4: fighting this endless civil war over what to call themselves,
1:02:17
Speaker 4: I believe is what it was. But yeah, that's way
1:02:21
Speaker 4: off the rails.
1:02:22
Speaker 2: But anyway, a south Park actually, weirdly enough, does say
1:02:26
Speaker 2: a lot of profound things. But I hear you. It's
1:02:28
Speaker 2: hard to advocate some of the language and certainly can
1:02:32
Speaker 2: be offensive and pretty offensive in content sometimes.
1:02:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the twentieth century shows us pretty clearly
1:02:45
Speaker 1: that secularist regimes can be very violent.
1:02:50
Speaker 4: Absolutely well.
1:02:58
Speaker 1: Any other maybe we can end on and some kind
1:03:00
Speaker 1: of light note related to gameplay or whatever, But I mean,
1:03:03
Speaker 1: is there anything else on then the deeper end anyone
1:03:05
Speaker 1: wants to bring up that hasn't already been discussed.
1:03:11
Speaker 3: I think that on a gameplay level, one of the
1:03:14
Speaker 3: things that's so much more fun is a lot of
1:03:19
Speaker 3: people will talk about how the level cap and leveling
1:03:25
Speaker 3: system in the first game kind of requires them to
1:03:28
Speaker 3: hold levels, which kind of artificially constrains your progress in
1:03:34
Speaker 3: the game, because you become a Jedi about a third
1:03:40
Speaker 3: of the way into Kodoor one, and so your first
1:03:44
Speaker 3: four to ten levels are kind of pointless in terms
1:03:47
Speaker 3: of being a Jedi, and in fact can often take
1:03:50
Speaker 3: away your ability to develop your force powers. Whereas you
1:03:54
Speaker 3: start as a Jedi in Kodoor two and you're able
1:03:57
Speaker 3: to get a more specific what are they called, there's
1:04:02
Speaker 3: a specialty class that you become a special kind of
1:04:05
Speaker 3: Jedi or a syth depending on if you go dark side,
1:04:09
Speaker 3: And I think that The fact that there's no functional
1:04:12
Speaker 3: level cap in the second game means you can have
1:04:15
Speaker 3: a much more organic sense of development as a character,
1:04:18
Speaker 3: whereas in the first game, I think you really need
1:04:22
Speaker 3: to plan at least five or six of your your
1:04:25
Speaker 3: final levels so you get specific power, so you're able
1:04:27
Speaker 3: to actually beat the game, like there's a couple of
1:04:30
Speaker 3: powers that you need, or you just kind of die
1:04:33
Speaker 3: in the final level, whereas Kotor two you can kind
1:04:37
Speaker 3: of just explore. You can you can go down a
1:04:39
Speaker 3: path and figure out what you enjoy most as a
1:04:43
Speaker 3: Jedi or a syth. I think that is really one
1:04:47
Speaker 3: of the things that makes me love the game more
1:04:49
Speaker 3: than the first game.
1:04:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can second that. I mean just from gameplay
1:04:54
Speaker 1: level In Kotor one, I always maintain level one until
1:04:57
Speaker 1: I've become a Jedi, which makes things a little bit more,
1:05:01
Speaker 1: a little bit more difficult in Terrists, but definitely not unmanageable.
1:05:04
Speaker 1: But in Kotor two, it's it's much more of a
1:05:06
Speaker 1: fluid experience. There's no incentive to hold levels, and so
1:05:09
Speaker 1: I think that's a that's a good point. It throws
1:05:11
Speaker 1: you right into the well the Star Wars feel of
1:05:15
Speaker 1: you know, force powers and all that kind.
1:05:17
Speaker 3: Of thing.
1:05:19
Speaker 1: Now. I don't know, maybe we'll wrap things up said
1:05:24
Speaker 1: on a lighter note, maybe just who are your your
1:05:28
Speaker 1: two favorite companions to take with you? I know, for
1:05:32
Speaker 1: for me, it very much depends on what kind of
1:05:34
Speaker 1: game Am'm playing, you know, my dark Light? Am I
1:05:37
Speaker 1: doing lying on Force Powers? Am I just doing Lightsaber?
1:05:41
Speaker 1: But I think that philosophy aside. Just my favorite characters
1:05:45
Speaker 1: to play with are again, I like h K. My
1:05:49
Speaker 1: one of my first priorities when I play games is
1:05:51
Speaker 1: always to get all his parts and put them back together.
1:05:53
Speaker 1: So I have to take HK, and I like taking
1:05:57
Speaker 1: Candabis around. So maybe I'm double up on the the
1:06:01
Speaker 1: well potentially blasters, although sometimes I give Canvas a melee.
1:06:05
Speaker 1: But I like Candas, I like HK. I think those
1:06:08
Speaker 1: are my two picks, Josh, who are your two favorites
1:06:10
Speaker 1: to play with?
1:06:13
Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, a lot of the time I find
1:06:16
Speaker 2: myself just end up sticking with the original too, right, Like,
1:06:20
Speaker 2: so you have you meet Korea on Peraugas, and then
1:06:24
Speaker 2: you meet at in a holding cell on Parugus very
1:06:28
Speaker 2: shortly after that, like literally maybe like two to five
1:06:31
Speaker 2: minutes after you meet Korea, just depending on how fast
1:06:34
Speaker 2: you're moving, I guess, But those are probably my two
1:06:37
Speaker 2: favorite characters to run with the most of the game,
1:06:39
Speaker 2: not just because I think they're the most interesting to
1:06:41
Speaker 2: talk to from the perspective of the player through the exile,
1:06:45
Speaker 2: but also they honestly just have some really interesting banter
1:06:49
Speaker 2: with each other. And part of that's probably just because
1:06:51
Speaker 2: of different beliefs, but also just different personalities. Right, You've
1:06:54
Speaker 2: got this old old lady with a traumatized past who's
1:07:00
Speaker 2: a sage in some sense, but also has some profound
1:07:03
Speaker 2: yet terrible ideas. And then you've got Aton, who is
1:07:07
Speaker 2: really deep beneath the surface, but on the surface again,
1:07:10
Speaker 2: he's like the charismatic, like you know, witty swashbuckling rogue type,
1:07:16
Speaker 2: and he has a lot of sarcasm and wit that
1:07:18
Speaker 2: he uses in his dialogue. But I think they're both interesting.
1:07:22
Speaker 2: But as I've said before, like I really love pretty
1:07:25
Speaker 2: much all of the characters in this game, and honestly,
1:07:28
Speaker 2: I'll I'll switch up the characters I play with the
1:07:32
Speaker 2: most every time I play through this game, because there's
1:07:36
Speaker 2: a richness to really exploring them all.
1:07:38
Speaker 1: In a sense, Yeah, I definitely think from a storytelling angle,
1:07:43
Speaker 1: Kreya and at And are probably the best ones to
1:07:44
Speaker 1: go with. It's probably the best one to stick with
1:07:47
Speaker 1: for your first run, especially all right, Ian.
1:07:53
Speaker 3: Is so hard to pick just two, Oh my goodness,
1:07:56
Speaker 3: because there's definitely characters I don't care about as much,
1:08:00
Speaker 3: but I love at least five or six of the characters.
1:08:03
Speaker 3: So going with two, I think I'm gonna have to
1:08:11
Speaker 3: go with Mirah, the former Mandalorian captive who becomes a
1:08:17
Speaker 3: bounty hunter on whom you can influence to become a Jedi.
1:08:21
Speaker 3: I think that her story is really one that I
1:08:24
Speaker 3: think shows how a Jedi can positively impact the universe
1:08:30
Speaker 3: on an individual basis. And then Candoris or the Mandalorian
1:08:35
Speaker 3: sorry not Mandalor. Actually I hated Boba Fette in the
1:08:42
Speaker 3: original trilogy, mostly because I feel like people treat him
1:08:46
Speaker 3: like he's a really deep character when really he does
1:08:50
Speaker 3: next to nothing. He figures out how to track on
1:08:52
Speaker 3: solo and then he falls in a pit. Whereas Candoris
1:08:57
Speaker 3: throughout the two games has this incredible character arc, and
1:09:01
Speaker 3: he's actually incredibly hardcore and has so many feats and
1:09:07
Speaker 3: things that he does that are really cool. Plus when
1:09:12
Speaker 3: you first beat him in the second game, you see
1:09:15
Speaker 3: a whole picture of Mandalorian culture as he's reforming. So
1:09:20
Speaker 3: inspired by Revin, he has become a reformer himself of
1:09:23
Speaker 3: Mandalorian culture, and so that fits with the Jedi exiles
1:09:27
Speaker 3: attempt to reform the Jedi as an institution. But I mean,
1:09:32
Speaker 3: I just love so many other characters like Visus and
1:09:35
Speaker 3: T three and go To, but those two I think,
1:09:39
Speaker 3: if I'm forced to pick two, are the ones I'll
1:09:41
Speaker 3: focus on.
1:09:42
Speaker 1: Now. Yeah, the I mentioned that the Boba Fet criticism
1:09:48
Speaker 1: that I mean, obviously, you're right, he doesn't really do
1:09:50
Speaker 1: anything significant. I think that he is, as the kids say,
1:09:55
Speaker 1: he's all vibes like he's something really cool about him,
1:09:58
Speaker 1: but he doesn't really do much. Wise. The the the
1:10:03
Speaker 1: Kotor games definitely build out Mandalorianism far more than Boba
1:10:07
Speaker 1: Fet does, all right, David.
1:10:09
Speaker 4: Yeah, And you know he has a cool suit of
1:10:12
Speaker 4: armor and Darth Vader points at him and says no disintegrations,
1:10:15
Speaker 4: and I think that carries almost everything that that people
1:10:18
Speaker 4: loved about him. Yeah, I I gotta go with with
1:10:23
Speaker 4: Aton and Krea, just because they're almost the only characters
1:10:26
Speaker 4: that I can remember from my playthrough, so I must
1:10:29
Speaker 4: have stuck with them quite a bit, and I did
1:10:33
Speaker 4: like the the view of the universe that Atton kind
1:10:37
Speaker 4: of gave a little little extra depth to the Star
1:10:40
Speaker 4: Wars universe. So and of course same for Cray as well,
1:10:44
Speaker 4: So that would be my answer.
1:10:48
Speaker 1: Cool cool, all right, Well, I think that I enjoyed
1:10:51
Speaker 1: this conversation. Falwe dealt with some significant things, all just
1:10:55
Speaker 1: some fun things, and I look forward to what we
1:10:59
Speaker 1: do next time. So I do think we were going
1:11:01
Speaker 1: to do one episode at least on the Old Republic,
1:11:05
Speaker 1: and so Ian, I'm sure you'll want to contribute on that,
1:11:09
Speaker 1: you know, David, is time to jump in real quickly.
1:11:12
Speaker 1: We'll see what you can do.
1:11:14
Speaker 5: Man.
1:11:15
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a lot of ground to cover, I think.
1:11:19
Speaker 1: I mean, surely you have, like I don't know, eighty
1:11:22
Speaker 1: hours to finish a couple stories real quickly. Gorast some
1:11:26
Speaker 1: red bull, get to it, all right, all right, we'll
1:11:30
Speaker 1: go ahead and wrap it there. Thanks again, everyone, and
1:11:33
Speaker 1: I will I'm sure see you again, all right, bye,
1:11:41
Speaker 1: all right. I hope that you enjoyed that. I know
1:11:42
Speaker 1: that I did, and I hope that you'll continue with
1:11:45
Speaker 1: us in this new venture as we pursue wisdom through
1:11:48
Speaker 1: our discussion of video games. As I record this a
1:11:52
Speaker 1: little bit ahead of time, I can't guarantee the schedule,
1:11:55
Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure that next time we will be
1:11:57
Speaker 1: talking about the Old Republic, the MMO game, and so
1:12:01
Speaker 1: I look forward to getting to that as we continue
1:12:03
Speaker 1: this series. And again, if you are enjoying this, then
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1:12:22
Speaker 1: on Fridays, so you're not waiting too long. I'm going
1:12:25
Speaker 1: to try to get the next episode out on June sixth,
1:12:30
Speaker 1: and after that it'll be every other Friday. All right. Well,
1:12:33
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed this and I look forward to
1:12:35
Speaker 1: next time. Until then, God Speak The Elder Scrolls in
1:12:46
Speaker 1: Philosophy a six week course beginning of September twenty twenty five.
1:12:53
Speaker 1: I don't play many video games these days, but there
1:12:55
Speaker 1: are certain titles that have stuck with me. Enchanting the
1:12:58
Speaker 1: Mind of my youth and never entirely fading away. One
1:13:01
Speaker 1: of the chiefs among these titles is the Elder Scrolls,
1:13:04
Speaker 1: namely Marwin, Oblivion and Skyrim. The level of artistry, mythology,
1:13:09
Speaker 1: and lore of this universe is vast and provides a
1:13:12
Speaker 1: strong representative for asking the question as to how video
1:13:15
Speaker 1: games might relate to literature as an art form. Where
1:13:19
Speaker 1: might it rise to such a level, where must it
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Speaker 1: fall short? And what unique advantages does it possess. For
1:13:25
Speaker 1: this eight week study, we'll be seeking to answer these
1:13:27
Speaker 1: questions while analyzing various elements of this franchise, specifically focusing
1:13:32
Speaker 1: on content related to Morow and Oblivion and Skyrim. Will
1:13:35
Speaker 1: be taking a look at the philosophy of RPGs and
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Speaker 1: considering the philosophical implications of character creation and formation in
1:13:42
Speaker 1: an open ended series such as this, and will be
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Speaker 1: looking at the relationship between in game religion, lore, and
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Speaker 1: ideas with our primary world philosophical and religious concepts. Each
1:13:53
Speaker 1: week will include one to two videos addressing these topics,
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Speaker 1: ongoing discord conversations, and live meetings. You are also in
1:14:00
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1:14:02
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