Latest / Learn Literacy Podcast / 15. Trixie Pujol - Trauma Informed Teaching
Transcript
- Cheryl Urbanczyk: Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the Learn Literacy podcast where we focus on language for life by teaching literacy through language and structure. I'm very excited today to have as my guest Trixie Pujol, a clinical counselor who is based in Kenya. So welcome Trixie, thanks for being here today. ⁓ you're welcome. So I'm very excited to learn from you various ways we can support students. Trixie Pujol: Thank you for having me. Cheryl Urbanczyk: from like an emotional and wellbeing point of view in our remediation lessons or in classrooms and that kind of thing. And I know you have a great background in this. So we'll just jump in and get started. trauma informed responses are important in getting more well known in education. But it would be really interesting to hear and understand how the brain of a child, like with a learning disability or who's struggling in school, resembles that of a exposed ⁓ Trixie Pujol: Sure. So I speak quite a bit lately on emotional regulation and trauma. And I think when we're talking about a child who has a learning difficulty or, learn stifference, neurodivergent children, it's very, it can often be that they get emotionally dysregulated because things are a bit overwhelming. So when I, I often talk about trauma, but we talk about trauma and we think of like severe trauma or like PTSD or when children Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Trixie Pujol: have been abused or neglected or severe things. But actually, when I talk about trauma, I think of like trauma, stress and neurodivergence. And I like to look at the link between like dysregulation behavior and learning challenges, because what we see going on in the brain ⁓ ⁓ And so if we learn trauma-informed approaches, we will be able to support all of our children and nobody, like all children will benefit from this kind of learning. of thinking, I would say. So if we look at our hand, I don't know if you've seen this model, this is Dan Siegel's hand model of the brain. And so it's a great way to show children and it's nice to like give children language around this, not just as adults understanding it, but also the children. So if we look at this and we think this is our prefrontal cortex, which is here, this is where we think, organize, plan, carry out anything we do. And so in learning we have Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Thank you. Trixie Pujol: a lot of that, but everyday life, know, organizational skills, driving somewhere, figuring out what we in our bag to take to work or school, all of that's in here, ⁓ how to, to write a paper, how to read everything is in here. And so this is our, like our, yeah, this is our prefrontal cortex. And then we go inside here, this is our amygdala. So this is our emotions. And then down here, this is our survival brain. This is our ⁓ brainstem. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. ⁓ Trixie Pujol: our limbic system and our brainstem. so often like ⁓ model you see with this, kids will talk about, this is our thinking brain. And when it goes offline nowadays with, kids, they don't really understand that language. ⁓ And the emotional brain over. This is called flipping your lid. So this is a model that like is really easy to show. This is our thinking brain. This is our emotions. And this is kind of our reptilian brain, our survival functions. Easy to explain to kids. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Trixie Pujol: We can talk about being online and offline and flipping our lid. So this is one model that I use to ⁓ explain this to kids. And when our brain goes into trauma, our stress and impact on the nervous system is really large, really high. So it's trauma, stress, ⁓ and there's like trauma, big trauma, and there's something in the field we call ⁓ small small traumas. So we all have small little things that have happened in our lives that build up. So it could be a small car accident. could be not something major in life. It could be small things that kind of have repeated in our lives. So for kids who have academic struggles, like their academic success looks like might not be like their peers. And so their struggles and frustrations, embarrassment and shame, especially if it's not being treated right, ⁓ they're not learning the right tools, then it build up over time and that... Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Trixie Pujol: increases that shame and embarrassment, know, that having to read out in class, in front of everybody when you're struggling with reading really hard, not, just that's stress producing and that is small trauma that builds up. And for a lot of these kids with neurodivergence or learning difficulties, we see, tons of stress, there's embarrassment, sometimes there's ⁓ teasing, bullying that kind of, it layers on and layers on. ⁓ And so what we see overactive stress system, Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Trixie Pujol: that stress system stays switched on even when we're safe. Like our stress system is supposed to go on when we're unsafe. when there was predators, when there was something ⁓ the environment that was unsafe. ⁓ for a lot of these kids, it goes switched on even when they're safe. ⁓ then they're hypervigilant, constantly like feeling danger and unable to relax. And so the brain goes into survival mode and it prioritizes safety over learning our connection. So when a child, ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Trixie Pujol: that stress response they learn. Like they're not in their frontal cortex. ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. definitely. Yeah. ⁓ Trixie Pujol: Yeah, and so I think neurodivergence, dysregulation and trauma ⁓ kind of overlapping in the brain. yeah, so like we can have like a lot of our kids might have sensual overwhelm, they might have executive functioning difficulty. So again, that difficulty with planning self-regulation, then they emotionally can't regulate, they can't manage and express their feelings. And then there's hypervigilance, a constant alert to potential threats. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah Trixie Pujol: So there's a lot going on in a child, right? So other model of the brain that's a bit more complex, but I love using it with kids because I have like stuffed animals that I use and I teach it to teachers and parents is Robin Goepel's animal brain model. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Trixie Pujol: And she talks about, again, if you use this, this is the owl brain. This is when you're calm and curious, ready to learn. The owl can think clearly and make good decisions. Like right now we're both in our owl brain, right? And this is all true for children and adults. Like this doesn't, we're all human. This is how it works, right? And so when we flip our lid, then we might go into fight or flight mode. This is our watchdog and it's ready to protect. But when you're in fight or flight, when you're feeling that danger, you can't learn, right? And for some people, Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Trixie Pujol: where at times we go into possum brain. And in North America, most people know what a possum is. In this part of the world, they're not so common, but they're a great example of the freeze or shutdown mode because when he feels overwhelmed and he feels, he pretends he's dead, right? It works, he's, predators believe he's dead and they leave him alone. But this is when kids shut down, they go into like withdrawal or disassociation. So if we look at these three models and we help, Cheryl Urbanczyk: Thank you. Right? Yeah. Trixie Pujol: ⁓ educators remember that when somebody, when a child is in any of these this mode or this mode, they're not in thinking brain. And so this is true when a child's having a meltdown and we're trying to get them like back on gear or when a child just, is scared because they can't get the right answer or they come out with anger or big emotions, crying, sadness, or they shut down, which we also see with kids when they're just overwhelmed and don't know what to do. ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Trixie Pujol: don't know if you have examples of that. Cheryl Urbanczyk: ⁓ definitely. even think as an adult, I'm thinking of some examples. for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But. Trixie Pujol: It happens to all of us. Yeah, we're all humans. It happens to all of us. But if we can help teachers understand or parents or educators that when they're in this mode, there's no learning. So stop trying to teach. And you need to connect. You had a question later about like rapport. And that's a lot of it is if you don't have a rapport with the child you're working with, if they don't feel safe and trusted, then nothing's like if they can't trust you and feel safe, a safe physical environment, safe emotional environment. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Trixie Pujol: They're not going to feel that they're going to Right. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. ⁓ exactly. so informative. And like I said, I think anyone listening can think of how it relates to themselves just as a person, right? And then, okay, now we have our layers as an educator or parent or caregiver, it's so relatable. ⁓ And think ⁓ I like animal one, because I think for kids, that's something that they can relate to. And I think in schools or let's say even remedial work, we're kind of focused, ⁓ I have to teach them the skills. They're so behind. We gotta go fast. We gotta catch up. We gotta, ⁓ but sometimes kids that language of understanding and learning their own self can be very helpful in that process, right? Like if they... maybe recognize some signs like, I'm starting to feel stress, I need a break or I mean, it's all age appropriate, unsure, right in terms of how you can do it. But that concept is there. And then, that rapport piece too. So what are some strategies for building that rapport or setting up lessons, things to be on the lookout for? Because, I think from kind of going maybe back again to like those small traumas that you talk about have an additive effect, I'm sure, right? Because these kids are going to school every day, they're seeing this it's like daily drops over time add ⁓ and I acknowledge it's not the same as like a big trauma. However, for those kids, it's very significant, Trixie Pujol: Mm-mm. Right. Right. And what is happening really in the brain in those times is really the same. it's, it, there's might be a different causes for it, but our brains, work in similar ways. Now, extreme trauma can cause like, I don't want to say brain damage, but like parts of the brain to kind of be stumped, So that's a little different, but yes, but yeah, is quite similar. And so, back to just the safety thing, it's always about connection before correction. So let's say a child is struggling with a lesson you're teaching, stop and get connection before you try to correct. If you see the child, in any of these states, if they're starting to shut down, if they're starting to, they're not being able to learn. So again, in the owl brain, you're connected, you're co-regulated. So the adult is regulated. This is easier for teachers, like for parents, sometimes it's harder, but you're regulated and your regulation, help the child regulate. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. . Mm-hmm. Yeah. Trixie Pujol: And then in this place, can problem solve, they can build skills, they reinforce trust, because you're affirming their engagement, positive choices, sense of safety. But when you're seeing them in this unsafe mode, this is like when they're agitated, irritable, refusing to do work. This is where you have to ensure safety. So create the physical space, stop, remove any triggers, put the books aside, get out a toy, something light, get outside, ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-mm. and break here, Trixie Pujol: Yeah, validate their feelings. I see you're feeling really scared right now, offer them like breaths, quiet time, a calming presence, avoiding demands, making things a little bit easier and set gentle boundaries to get safe and then without shaming and then slowly try to get them back in our brain. And again, if they're impossible brain, they might be really overwhelmed. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Trixie Pujol: So they might be staring out, zoned out, not really responding, staring blankly, withdrawn, and this is a gentle presence, being nearby, not overwhelming them, quieting down, low stimulation, give them a little time and space, offer comfort. so those are just some things to think about if somebody's in that mode. But then, ⁓ we go about like this model and looking about what we can, we see. ⁓ So. In it, dysregulated signs and impact would be like behavior that may be outburst, breaking in school, fidgeting, withdrawal. Emotionally, could be sadness, anxiety, frustration. But I think sometimes in classes, we know that the kid who's really struggling might become the rule breaker or the class clown, some way to maybe even get kicked out of class because it's hard to learn and that's easier than like... Exactly. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's coping strategy too, to disengage and get out. ⁓ Trixie Pujol: And I just, before we get into some more strategies, like just the trauma and stress and the chronic, dysregulation can, like how that can look in class is poor focus, attention or memory. So difficulty sustaining attention, struggling with processing new information, disrupted executive functioning, know, compromising with planning and organization, difficulty with self monitoring and problem solving. And then with problem solving and planning, maybe impulsivity or struggle to think flexibly. And so then it kind of creates a pattern, right? The stress, then they might have dysregulated behavior and then, know, academic struggles get worse. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, exactly. dominoes from there you know what kind of negative cycle yeah Trixie Pujol: Yeah, but like knowing that the underlying reality is that they might just be really overwhelmed and that they need to safe and connected. just wanna like that, wanna stress that. And so some trauma informed principles we looked at is safety, trust, empowering the child, giving them choice, self-efficacy, collaboration, like what can we do together with the child, maybe including the parents. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Trixie Pujol: and obviously strengths-based, always looking at what their coping skills are, what their strengths are, and kind of using that to help them. ⁓ So I'm gonna go through two different ideas of practical strategy. just the overviews would be co-regulation before self-regulation. So the child's not gonna self-regulate. They use adults to co-regulate. So how we appear, how we present to them, if we're calm and organized, that's gonna help them that way. Providing things that are pretty, Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Okay. Interesting. Trixie Pujol: basic for kids with learning difficulties, but it's always good to be reminded, know, consistent schedules, clear expectations, routines, ⁓ corners, if kids have sensory needs, which a lot of our kids do, providing, self-soothing and sensory regulation, relational, building trusting relationships, ⁓ and the teacher caregiver So really working as a team is really important. So then if we look at like, Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Trixie Pujol: practical tools, like just the next step down, would be giving kids, like you were talking about, helping them learn about all of this, what's going on in their body, what are using these animals or these names of things. And so remembering that a calm body is needed for a calm brain, regulation comes before reasoning. So body-based things, it could be movement, like first let's do some movement, or push, pushes or chair pushes. for like younger kids to work well. Animal walks, your whole body and release, know, bilateral tapping. I teach kids to tap on their lap so like they don't have to like draw attention to themselves. Yeah. That's when like things feel really big or ⁓ anxiety before or transitions, really good. Bilateral tapping we know helps calm. And so if you're like working individually with a child or sitting with them, Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Thank Trixie Pujol: help them teach, you can demonstrate that. if you, if it's like in a classroom and you want to draw attention, you just put your hands on your, on your lap and you would tap and take, slow breaths with that. Again, teaching kids breathing tools, really There's so many different breathing, know, five finger breathing, bubble breathing, box breathing. Lots of kids have learned these, but reminding kids to use these things. ⁓ Using like either, the zones of or feeling charts or Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Trixie Pujol: I feel scared because I feel overwhelmed. So that they can name emotions and then break it down. Providing definitely, especially in school, like a calm place where they can kind of have a place to go if they need a minute. Visual timers are really helpful knowing how long something's gonna last, what's coming next. But then as we get a little, go ahead, go ahead. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm hmm. It's funny. Oh, I just said it's funny that you mentioned that because like the the OG lesson is so structured. often say kids will say to me, we're here. We have just this, this and this left. And I'm like, yeah. It helps keep in order and they know where they are. I haven't used visual in a while, but Trixie Pujol: It's very structured, which is really good. Do they have a visual? Is there a visual of it? Cheryl Urbanczyk: I've made them before, but kids just know the order. It's like anything you do. Like when I go to a restaurant, I go and I sit down, I order, the order lesson is the same. We start this way. And after a few lessons, they just kind of know, this is first, this is second, this is third, but. the structure never changes. It's always the same. So. Trixie Pujol: No, I would, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very broken down, very structured. Yeah. And that's so helpful. And they know it's like a 30 minute or an hour lesson or whatever it is. Yeah. And that's really important. And I think it's one of the, mean, also OG uses multi-sensory, at least in the beginning, right? And, there's tools and there's rules and it's very like, yeah, there's a lot, I mean, to this day, my daughter did ⁓ OG and I sit in very many sessions, but there's certain rules like of like writing that Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. . Trixie Pujol: I remember and she still struggles. I'll be like, there's an E at the end. E makes the vowel say its name. I learned that sitting in an OG lesson, nowhere in school did I learn that. But that's so helpful that it's so broken down like that. So totally very important. Yeah, so then I would say for like older kids, then you do like get into like early ⁓ body I find for my younger kids, for a lot of them, it's really hard to like get into their body, but. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Trixie Pujol: what do you feel in your body? Because obviously, but I start teaching it from young kids. But as a kid, teens, as we get into teens, they understand better if they understand, like they can, if they understand why they're feeling this way. So yeah, where do you, is your tight, is your chest getting tight? Do you have racing thoughts or your, are you, what's happening? then exactly, cause once you start realizing what your body's doing, then you can know what's happening and then. kind of stop before it gets too bad, right? And take a break or grounding techniques like five, four, three, two, one, the scent, the scan, that one, five things you can see, four things you can touch, that one. Cold on your wrists, ⁓ feet on your floor, grounding, like especially anxiety, ⁓ teaching them thought versus a feeling, what's the difference, what do I need to do right now? Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Trixie Pujol: name it to take it and then like choice based coping menus. like if, can they use music or movement? Can they talk to someone? What is the thing they need? know, choice restores autonomy and then it reduces the escalation. And so, I know like in an OG lesson, this stuff's gonna be really hard because you don't have a lot of time, but on the same, the same thing is it's important to like, like you're saying like you're not gonna get anywhere if a child's so anxious that they can't focus. ⁓ Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. No, no, or if they just break down and start crying or refuse to engage. Because one of the real reasons I'm interested in this conversation is one of the OG principles that guide our instruction is emotional soundness of the lesson. And I think there are The way it's phrased, in my interpretation, tends more toward like instructional approach that we go in small steps and all this kind of thing. But I think we need this other knowledge that you're talking about because that is setting the stage for ⁓ soundness in a completely different way to support the students to, be where they are. Because, most kids, if they come for tutoring or go for extra help in school, they know what they're doing. They know it's more work, it's extra tutoring, it's extra this, and that alone is just like when you're a kid, what I mean? And then, so ⁓ one thing wanted to kind of maybe wander into is how this like student self-esteem and how you see that trauma connection there. Because this is what I found, like even with, students I've worked with. Trixie Pujol: I didn't see. Cheryl Urbanczyk: just general that you can remediate kids but what's harder to help them with is that sense of self that they don't have because of these small traumas and they see others doing things they can't do. Trixie Pujol: Yeah. I think first of all, mean, there's so much literature and research on early intervention on whatever we're talking about, but you know, the earlier my child was really lucky, she was assessed just after she turned six. And at that time, the assessor said, look, we, I'm not going to diagnose it, but like, it's, there's lot of signs of this, know, we should do intervention. And we got great early on and I don't think she has the most severe dyslexia. And obviously there's, she still has it. She still has signs of it. Cheryl Urbanczyk: I know. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Trixie Pujol: But that early intensive OG early on, I think made a world of difference where I see, kids I work with are friends of kids who are diagnosed at nine, 10, 11, and you're whoa. And now, yeah, now their self-esteem is so affected because, at six or going to, tutoring, you don't quite know what that means. You're going to have fun at someone's house and yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Well, ⁓ I think there's self-awareness, I mean, obviously the cognitive development between six and nine or 10 is different, right? Trixie Pujol: Yeah. And I also see with like my younger kids, like at school, if they get pulled out for OT or tutoring or, specialized learning, again, the younger ones, it's not that big of a deal as they get older, they're much more self-conscious. They don't want to be taken away from their peers no matter what the lesson is. They don't want the attention drawn on them. They don't want people asking, why were you pulled out? And so obviously the older they get, and yes, absolutely. I think you're right. It does affect that. Cheryl Urbanczyk: You Thank Trixie Pujol: So I think the more we can come from a strength-based approach and also helping them understand their brain, that your brain, if you have dyslexia, if you have learning difficulties, if you have dyspraxia, if you have autism, whatever it might be, that we explain the brain. I just got a family coming to me, the child who's 12 and they haven't disclosed the diagnosis, obviously the child knows, but like, and it was just. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. You do know that even six cents, they know there's something going on, right? Trixie Pujol: Definitely. And, you know, I think parents often not only to protect a child, but they think, well, if we make a big deal about it, then it's worse. Well, actually, I think it's how we tell a child and what we do with that information and how we explain to a child that your brain's different. It's got these great skills because of it. And if you look at Branson and his work on dyslexia his like, know, dyslexia university, he's trying to bring the light about it. And like, we need more people with this brain, you know? ⁓ And Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Trixie Pujol: like helping people understand that there's challenges and then there's strengths. coming from that strength base, and of course, not every school is coming from this approach or not every program, but the more we can help a child realize that you might need extra help in this, but because you have dyslexia or because your brain works differently, you have these skills that somebody else doesn't have. So I think that is one way to help kids work through that. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Yeah. You Trixie Pujol: But yeah, absolutely, a lot of kids who come with me, come to see me have learning challenges and it's just one more, mean, life is hard enough, teens are enough and then to feel different in any way is challenging. that also like kind of goes on top with how you relate and how you build rapport ⁓ ⁓ Hughes is like a psychologist who specializes in childhood trauma. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Thank you. Right. Trixie Pujol: And he has a program, something called PACE, which I teach parents, but I think it'd be really great for professionals as well. And it's talking about coming from a PACE is playful, accepting curiosity and empathy. So if you're coming from that sort of framework of, know, the way you use your tone of voice, that is playful, you stop in at your face, your get down on a kid's level, acceptance, knowing, that they know that Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Trixie Pujol: inner life is safe with you and you can really accept and not be judgmental. And coming from that place of curiosity using I wonder, could it be that you're feeling, could it be that this is too hard? Could it be that, can you help me understand? I'm trying to imagine, ⁓ kind of language we use. And then the E is empathy. ⁓ it sounds like it's been really tough. I can't even imagine how this is for you, but. Really. So I just thinking about it when I was getting ready to talk to you, PACE is something that I actually don't even put in my training, but I work with parents on, and I think that's also really easy for practitioners to remember PACE. it's an easy thing. It's easy to look up. and you coming from that approach. So constantly coming from this more gentle approach and realizing what you're saying, like you're not going to, this part of the brain is not working if I'm not in this part of my brain. Like, so there's. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. This is it. Mm-hmm. Right. Trixie Pujol: I'm in one of these two parts, we can teach all we want, learning's not happening. And so, always coming, and I think helping parents understand that, because they're paying for your time, they're paying for, they want results. ⁓ Teachers feel that Yeah. And I think like if ⁓ schools could come a more trauma-informed approach, not exactly with all kids, but particularly like kids with learning difficulties, because there is this push for results, results, results. We don't have enough time, Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. It's not just push push. Trixie Pujol: Move, move, move. And it's not going to get anywhere if you don't stop and work on the social emotional. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. It's gonna be okay. Yeah. That's so true. it's, it's hard to see kids in that state because we do see them. And there's, know, the struggle for supports is real, like ⁓ everywhere. ⁓ Trixie Pujol: Yeah, yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: So in your practice, what do you see is like, like the real needs parents are, are coming for schools are reaching out for is like, like the hot button topics right now or high high level needs that you're seeing in your neck of the woods there. Trixie Pujol: The reason I started doing this training on social and emotional regulation is because I found myself, I mean, I do work with some kids with severe trauma, with adoption, with lots of complex issues where that is your classic trauma. Like Robin Goble's work goes really deep into that. Robin Goble has some podcasts and she's got a great website. But I people who, like parents who are with severely traumatized children might go to that or practitioners. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Trixie Pujol: but I find her stuff, like she's got these first, like think 15 podcasts that you can listen to and they, I just find myself listening to them over and over again. I find them really useful. So, but I'm getting this need for emotional regulation and like every, mean, it's unreal. I didn't even realize parents knew that word. And I literally get one request after another this last six months of every girl right now, a parent's calling or texting and like, Cheryl Urbanczyk: Thank you. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Trixie Pujol: My kids having issues with emotional regulation, we need help, I need tools. And I'm just like, like, it's just all like that. And then I was at a, at a teacher, at a school thing, um, with different schools. And I was telling a few schools that I was doing this and they were all like, yep, we need that. want that. We did a workshop for parents at my daughter's school. And then they wanted a follow-up. So the counselor and I did a follow-up with more practical strategies. And yeah, just that is what is the hot topic. Like by far right now. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Is it for like general parents or parents of kids with more profiles and needs? So it's just every, yeah. Trixie Pujol: It's... everything. It's everything, because at the parent thing at my daughter's school, there's definitely parents who come up to me and say, my kid's struggling with anxiety, my kid has learning needs, my kid is, know, whatever. But then there's just the average parent who's just, whether it's like the five-year-old who's falling apart all the time or the teenager, the parents going, we need tools. And one of the things I think that came up, what came up really clearly in this parent training is these two trainings I've done for my daughter's school is that... Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Trixie Pujol: generally we didn't grow up with any of this, right? And so unless you're in this field as an educator or a psychologist or something working with children where you're kind of knowledgeable on the recent stuff, we didn't grow up with topic around social emotional regulation, excuse me. Yes, thank you, Cheryl Urbanczyk: you Trixie Pujol: most of us, I think was a little luckier, my mom was a social worker, but most people in this room, my daughter's school international, we have parents all over the world, ⁓ nobody grew up social, kids didn't have emotions and they certainly didn't express them and there wasn't a lot of room for that. And so parents are at a loss, it's different times and we know more and you know better, you do better. I see parents are wanting to do better, but they don't have the tools. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Just different time. Mm-hmm. Trixie Pujol: And I think a lot of educators don't either. so, and with education in particular, these like, I think the stress of like pushing these results based is so much even stronger. ⁓ And parents where, they're really open saying, this is all brand new. They didn't grow up, they kind of know about this and that they should be doing it, but they don't have the language, they don't have the tools. And I think teachers are the same. we've done, ⁓ I've done workshops with Nasia another group of team of us that have done a couple for educators. the education, know, they're also the part on emotional, like they're just on it. I think this is the area, it's across the board, I think, that primarily what I'm realizing is the generation, least my generation for sure, maybe younger generations, this wasn't, you can't up with any of this. So the parents that are lost, the older educators are, ⁓ and you so that's what I'm hearing the hungry topic is. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Trixie Pujol: And this goes across the board. I think all children, we are humans, struggle with emotional regulation. the more we understand it, yeah. Yeah, that would be, say. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. exactly. Yeah. ⁓ that's great. It sounds like you're filling such an important need where you are and supporting so many people. That's awesome. ⁓ yeah, you are a fresher. Yeah. Trixie Pujol: Thank you. lucky to do something I Yeah. But always learning. mean, a lot of this is, I come from a very different paradigm, a very behavioral paradigm early in my practice. So really changed in the last 10 to 15 years. And so I'm very much just in a learning curves myself. Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Okay. ⁓ Yeah, but I think, could say the same in terms of education and where I came from and learning how to teach literacy to Gillingham to other to ⁓ new research and coming out. But I think that's kind of the joy of the perspective, what I mean, over time that you kind of see and you just keep enriching and learning. But, as we wrap up today, what would be like a lasting piece of advice or, one important thing you would want people to know about this trauma informed work ⁓ or ⁓ to students. You said many great pieces of advice, but I don't know if there's one thing you want to reiterate or something you haven't shared yet. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. just love that. amazing. with you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. for sure. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I think they both start with letter C, it's just such a good phrase, connect been before correction. But, I think, yeah, in all learning, too, when the, the one who's teaching and especially with your with kids where there's so many mistakes and errors sometimes. It's like the correction is there, but also thinking about, okay, what's important for me to really maybe choose to correct at this time, as opposed to logging my thoughts and okay, I have next lesson to review or I can reteach this next time, because it's we Any of these remedial processes, know, like OG and things will get there, but the path is just the path you walk and it takes its time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. and I learning from you. I have so many things that I want to listen to again ⁓ and to, ⁓ support teachers I work with and the parents I work with. ⁓ it's nice if we could just it's all about the academics, but it's not. It's about so much more than that. And that other stuff should be the place as opposed to, OK, let's sit down. have to teach you this. So it's really important. So thank you so much for your expertise and your time, Tracy. Thank you. All right. You too. Thank you. Bye bye.