Latest / Putting Is Fun / Nicklaus's White Fang and the Putter Karsten Never Glued | Ep. 11

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Nicklaus's White Fang and the Putter Karsten Never Glued | Ep. 11 · Putting Is Fun

• speaker-1: classic John Rooter. You can find your Santa. Be a straight shooter. Train yourself to respect the three footer. Bring out your Scotty or that new fango lab. Your time rolling putts will surely be fab. Putt, putt, putt is just like it seems. You can drift away and chill in a dream. Putt with your rose, gonna soak up the sun-free vitamin D is good for everyone. I'm just spitting facts. Putting is fun. speaker-0: Yes, it is, folks. Hey, everybody starting to really watch and listen to this podcast. I knew before we did the first one that it was going to be very popular. And we are very thankful for all the people that are tuning in on YouTube. Please subscribe and like. And listening on the other Apple and Spotify and all those things. I'm Brian Manzala coming to you from New Orleans. And that other nice looking guy is. speaker-1: I'm John or take it from Costa Mesa. We have some rain here today. Wow. speaker-0: That's that right. Didn't the song in the song It Never Rains in California. You know it's funny, there's like two of those songs, right? Kind of the same theme, right? ⁓ Midnight Train of Georgia, same thing, right? A guy that goes out to California and doesn't make it, you know, like a lot of people were moving out there. I don't think people do that as much anymore, right? They come I guess they do, right? Move out to to LA and and and ⁓ and try to make it either in in in music or speaker-1: think most people go to Nashville for music now, right? speaker-0: There you go. So they they're gonna write songs about Nashville as hot as Hades in Nashville sometimes. Not not as bad as New Orleans. you know what's funny is songs like that song, right? It never rains in California. You might go to a golf shop, DGA Tour Superstore or Roger Dunn or one of these places, and there may be a putterhead cover or driver head cover. It never rains in California and it has like, you know, like it's raining and it's like a theme for a a a cover. California dreaming. I I you know, and then of course, you know, good, good. They had a little trouble recently. We we we're sorry about that. But at the end of the day, I saw a George Jetson head cover. I I desperately want that for my driver. I I love George Jetson. So the question is, I got two questions for the expert here. speaker-1: California dreaming. speaker-0: When did you start seeing putter covers? Cause let me just tell you, not when I started playing golf and not anybody that my dad was playing with. And then when I started playing in junior tournaments and some of the guys I was getting paired with were nationally ranked juniors, no, no. If you had a ⁓ design by Arnold Palmer or or you know eighty-eight ⁓ two, or if you had ⁓ a a ping answer of Whatever. The stainless putters were just starting to come out. Everybody just they had, you know, they had woodhead covers for woods, but no iron covers, although you could buy an iron cover, and absolutely no putter covers. What's the first putter cover you could remember? speaker-1: Probably, I think on the Arnold Palmer Personals, didn't they come with those? So just off the top of my head, I'm sure there were others. think I have a... ⁓ speaker-0: Yes. Yes. Which was around seventy nine or eighty, maybe eighty one when that putter came out. speaker-1: Yes, then I think Kenneth Smith used to offer putter covers with their putters, but they weren't common. They were very uncommon. And then I know when Cameron started making putters, he was using AM &E's, believe. AM &E, the company in Arizona. speaker-0: Yep, they're still around, right? Big, big company. speaker-1: Yes. then when we were making putters, we used AM and ETAL also. ⁓ as far as like the theme covers, you we made theme ⁓ putter covers for baseball, basketball and football. made an issue. speaker-0: Give me a year on this this themed head covers, putter cover. speaker-1: What was the year that Florida Marlins won the World Series? Whatever year that was, if you look that up. Might have been a year before that or about thereabouts. that? speaker-0: I had a Flora Marlins hat, you know, fifty nine fifty. I I I dug it. I just thought it was a good logo, you know. Nineteen ninety seven. You should remember by this cat, ⁓ Eldrick had a pretty good putting week in Augusta. speaker-1: He did. It was right around there. I think it might have been 98 because we did ⁓ a tribute to the Florida Marlins when they won the World Series. We did a little Marlin cover. And then I think it was the next year or thereabouts. We did baseball, basketball, football. We called it Play Ball Series. So we had a little copper insert that went into the center of a Dale head, just one of our standard Dale heads. And it looked like a baseball, basketball or football. speaker-0: Small a a little small, not like a you know, normal size insert. speaker-1: Very small. If you look on eBay, you can find them. But then the head covers that came with them, they would ⁓ evoke the look of one of the balls. like the baseball was a white head cover. It had an outline of a baseball and it had red seams. then the stitching. yes, yes. And then the football and the basketball was a pebble grain like the height on both of those balls. speaker-0: The stitching, right? speaker-1: And then it had the seams and then stitches for the football. They're pretty cool. So we did those and we did ⁓ for the Vegas show, did one that was called, what was it called? Straight flush. We did one, two, three, four. So we had an ace, two, three, four, because they're lower numbers. So we had straight flush. It was a really cool cover, but that was the year of 9-11. And so they canceled the show that year. So we only made... Shoot, there must have been less than 20 of those. I saw one that was sold on eBay for 200 bucks. speaker-0: Do you ever think when y'all when y'all came up with this idea, which is brilliant and way ahead of his time, did you think that one day I mean like I've seen Potterhead covers go for eight bills. Eight. Not it's not an eight hundred dollar head cover. It's just, you know, the the the market, right? You know, it's like the stamp, a little stamp that was a penny stamp might be worth, you know, a million dollars. So I mean, did you you you foresee this or you just thought, no, this is a neat thing. We need a head cover because we're making these high-end putters and might as well have fun with it. speaker-1: I did not see that. I did not. So that's the opposite of genius. Cameron, whenever he saw those things, he'd just lock in and write it. Just write it. So that was his genius. No, I didn't see that. speaker-0: Because, you know, I I I really think that this is a i it can be overdone. I mean, I see some like a guy's got a bag and he came in here and it got so many different things going on. Like the one thing that maybe he really likes of all the covers gets lost in the confusion of all these different things, you know? ⁓ but You know, nowadays, you know, you you you're just not gonna game a putter like my Pareti putter. You're just not gonna put that thing in bag and not have a cover on it. I panic every now and then when I lose my putter cover in the middle of the round riding in a golf cart. You know, it's like, ⁓ where's my cover? Not because cause they gave me two with the putter, you know, in the little weight kits and all that kind of stuff. And one of them's really cool. And I never did want to use that one. I just up there in the cabinet. ⁓ but You know, because I mean, just one little nick in a in a a three ⁓ three and it's it ain't the same putter anymore, right? I mean, you'd have to get that taken care of, right? speaker-1: Yeah, there's a friend of mine that used to do the black oxide for me. ⁓ He actually just gave me three putters in the last couple of weeks. He gave me the Millennium Nexon I think I showed on two or three shows ago. And then he brought in a long neck Dalehead prototype. ⁓ It was a Dalehead 2 and it was done in black oxide. Right. Really, really nice. Of course, I had it in the golf cart with me when I was out with a kid and it fell out of the cart and it fell on the rough. So yesterday the starter goes, hey, Johnny, come here. Because you know anything about this butter? There was the butter and a little bit of rust on it because it's like the black oxides, they rust. And I just rubbed off the rust. speaker-0: What's a f what's a famous putter that was done in black oxide? So people that are listening or and and or watching can go, ⁓ okay, black oxide. speaker-1: T.P. Mills' Tad Moore Handmaids, Scotty Cameron, ⁓ speaker-0: So always thought I thought that was gun blue, no? speaker-1: That's the thing. That's same thing. Gun blue and black oxide's the same thing. speaker-0: I learned stuff on this o on my own show. It's great having somebody like Johnny on the internet. So okay. So yeah, I remember so so you could buy a kit I remember Tom Bartlett, who's super handy, ridiculous. He could do build a house with his own hands. It would take six years, right? But but one of the most talented people ever. And he blew one of his I don't know if it was a I guess it was a T P. Mills putter, ⁓ you know, a spalding, right? Which were never black oxide. They look they were just painted, right? speaker-1: ⁓ The production ones, yes, but the ones that were spalding TPM ones to use, et cetera, they were painted. There was some kind of powder coat or something. It wasn't black oxide or gun blue, but you could strip them down and they were carbon steel. You could do that. speaker-0: First the first production ones. So when you when you were doing your putters, what material w w did y'all start with when y'all made y'all putters? speaker-1: 8620 carbon steel. was the same material that Cleveland was using for the longest time for their wedges. It's called 8620 cast carbon steel. It's pretty soft and it was you could either plate it with chrome or nickel or you could gun blue it. You could do a lot of different things with it. You know paint it with cerakote now. Speaking of that you know I have a friend that like I was just mentioning that does the gun blowing, he also has Cerakote. It looks like powder coat, but they do it on guns now. So a lot of the gun makers, they Cerakote their firearms because the gun blowing rusts. So when you do the Cerakote, it's pretty robust. So I think that's probably what the ping putter is, the white ping putter that Wyndham Clark uses. Or something similar. It's like an epoxy paint. It's super durable and really cool. So he sent me some pictures of some refinished putters that he's been doing. He's offering that service. He calls it Ohana Golf. He can take your camera and he showed me a picture of a John Byron broom handle, the long putter. It was pretty beat up and he made it white and it looked great. He paint filled it. I think it was green and red or something like that. Made the thing look brand new. It was like, wow, this is pretty good work. So he does it and... think he turns him around in two weeks and he's reasonable. It's not cheap, but he does great work and you can do it like laser engrave. He does all kinds of stuff. speaker-0: Who's the first person you ever saw do a refinished job? I mean just like not not the person who did the refinish, but like 'cause woods ⁓ that's how I got in the golf business. I refinished my own woods and got hired and here I am bothering the world. But nobody was doing putters, I can promise you back then. speaker-1: Not too much. would think all the guys down in San Diego, I Cameron did it when he was ⁓ on Bent Street. think he would do some refinishing, but he was too busy at that point. He was just making a of putters for either Mizuno or Tidalist or for himself. But he did a little bit of a think, but Kiyama, he's tailor-made tour putter guy. In fact, they had, you were talking about last show about ⁓ You know Toulon and how his brand didn't take off. TaylorMade thought that they would do a KIA Moss series and they're really nice. I have a KIA Maw putter in my car. ⁓ speaker-0: That was around the time they were doing the Rosa. Yes. Did he design the roses? speaker-1: He was involved in it. He's a really good putter maker and he's very handy. can figure stuff out. He's very talented. But he's kind of a production guy. ⁓ wow. How'd you do that? speaker-0: Well, I'm I'm learning stuff. So this is a tell ⁓ what we're looking at here for the folks listening and after you tell the folks who are watching what they're looking at, I'm gonna tell the people who are listening what we're talking about. speaker-1: Now, did you do that on purpose? speaker-0: No. Like surprise me. Yeah, yeah, no, no. I I I just figured it out in here in Riverside. speaker-1: ⁓ man. Okay. That was like you kissed me. Okay. Better yet. Yeah. So that is a Scotty camera. I think that is a studio and it looks like it has an insert. You see those little ⁓ screws there? They have the Allen thing in the jigs. So that has an insert in the front and it's just stainless steel, 303 stainless. I think that speaker-0: Okay. I get close mouth. I'll ⁓ speaker-1: those putters and the ones just prior to that personally of the Scotty Cameron other than the current mallets which are super super nice I really like those a lot those things feel amazing that one has the insert I like the one without the insert but I think that's a Newport 2 doesn't look like a Scottsdale type like the bumpers are more rectangular yeah yeah and so that's that's the way it goes in you know a little bit speaker-0: So let me let me let me see if I can catch up the listeners. Okay. So this is a how old? How many years this speaker-1: I'm guessing 2000, 2002, I don't know. wasn't yesterday. It's a while ago. speaker-0: That long ago. So at least at least ten year old Scotty Cameron Potter, the one if you play golf that has the the the the four little colored dots in the back. John's talking about the ⁓ is an insert and you apparently can get to the insert with Allen screws on both sides of the four dots. And it's a like ping ⁓ answer two copy, you know, flattened out, ⁓ square rectangular bumpers. That's that's the part that's not the cavity. It's got a line. And it's been beat to I I wouldn't say beat to shit, but speaker-1: It's a C right now. It's a C. speaker-0: It's no better than if you were grading this in a pawn shop, no better than a C. And and you know, like what would if this was on the shelf at Roger Dunn, not the shelf, but you know what I mean? On the putting green in the used in the used department with all these nicks all over the place and stuff, what are we looking at? speaker-1: For this one, just because of the vintage, probably 300 bucks. It's not cheap because some of these stainless, the studio stainless, they're pretty pricey. They're sought after. He's got a good number of ones like this that people still want a lot. I I want to get like the studio stainless 340 Scottsdale type. Those are super nice. speaker-0: So So tell this, this three ⁓ three this is three ⁓ three, right? I mean, like compared to that eighty six twenty, how soft is three ⁓ three? Harder, softer? speaker-1: Yes. I'm not sure on a Rockwell scale, might be a little bit softer. speaker-0: I mean it nicks up pretty easy. So somebody walks in. So somebody walks into Roger Dunn, they they pop 300, they negotiate no tax, which means they bought it for 275 or something like that, right? And they they walk out. And then they call a person. Now there's several. I mean you know. speaker-1: Yes. They're putter lounge, Flanagan. speaker-0: Metalworks. Metalworks on X. speaker-1: Yeah, NorCal something or another. NorCal putters. ⁓ Daniel, do you pronounce his last name? Carrier. ⁓ Lamont Mann in Arizona. speaker-0: Yep, care. So who's the one I'm gonna put up of this particular part of the tree finish who did this one? speaker-1: His name is Pete Mata. He owns a company, he owns several companies, the company that he ⁓ calls the tag name for the company that he does the putters with is Ohana Golf. speaker-0: So what what what is this? Black oxide? ⁓ what do you do? speaker-1: This is Cerakote. It's Cerakote. So that's a epoxy paint. So I don't know if there's a front part to that picture. I think it's just the back one that I sent to you. And then I think the next one, if you can put the next one on, it's Tiffany. speaker-0: Talk, let's talk. This is the is that a different putter or the Tiffany or no? Yeah, but let's let's talk about this one. So, okay, so a person walks into you know maybe goes on eBay, spends somewhere between two and three hundred dollars, right? For that beat up Scotty 303. Somebody obviously played with it for five years without a cover, and then they call one of these cats up, right? And ⁓ speaker-1: It's a different putter speaker-0: I wanna get Sarakote. I like lime green. I'm gonna get my four dots in lime green, you know ⁓ white on the line and Cameron and Scotty and white. And ⁓ this is a really like a job here. How much are they looking at to get a pottery finish like that? speaker-1: Don't quote me on this, but I'm thinking $150. speaker-0: So it could be could be two fifty, could be one fifty, depending on who and what, right? speaker-1: And how much? How much needs to be done? And if they want to engraving? He does laser engraving. let's say... speaker-0: And then some people want the it looks like the you know, the the the random stamps, you know, you take the little stamp and go bing bang boom. Bing, bing, bang, boom, babes. speaker-1: You could probably do that, but... ⁓ Bing bang, wa la la, bing speaker-0: Fun fun fun f you know putting P I F putting is fun. We are but you know, if we ever do a putter. But sure it it it's unbelievable quality. So now you you've gone three hundred, two hundred, you got five. What can you get for the putter? Can you get five? speaker-1: At least. At least. Especially if you do one that catches a cord, know, makes somebody feel like bang. I'm going to do some in pink. He calls it bubblegum with a pink and white faded shaft with a white grip. Just totally pimp it out. When you do things like that, you put it on eBay for 800 bucks, you might have 500 into it and somebody has more money than they need. Bam. No problem. speaker-0: So When did y'all ever say, Okay, you know, you can order a putter any kind of way you want like goes super custom on some of this stuff or no? speaker-1: No, no, because I didn't do that. speaker-0: From a production standpoint, a nightmare. speaker-1: For sure. And we were two guys by the beach making putters. So that was beyond our capability. If you were Pete, he's got few legitimately bigger businesses for small business. He has a lot of employees. So he can do things like that. Handling paperwork and getting things through a shop. That's what he does. He does Cerakote for the military. SpaceX for big, big companies. Sure. He's got a lot of people working for him so that his machine can handle this. If you guys by the beach making putters, bones ringing like, where's my putter? wouldn't have worked. Nor do we even think about that. speaker-0: Yeah, no, no well, I mean but but but back then it it wasn't you know, people were not, you know, going cuckoo on the whole just it's just a different there's a different time and a different expectation on what, you know, you're gonna game or even, you know, in a million years think that you were gonna use. And I think that if you you just just just think about it now. You could take a putter now, three hundred dollar putter, spend three hundred more on it, then get a cover made by some I'm sure they're companies, right? You do whatever you want, right? Here's my puppy dog Bailey Boo, right? ⁓ our Westy that went to the big doghouse in the sky a few years ago. And and if I wanted Bailey on a head cover, I know Mark Heller's got his he's got a a a a a driver cover. It looks exactly like his dog. It's unbelievable. He's got a boxer. This I I know the pup. I've met the pup in person and here's his head cover it's like so I mean, you could you could wind up starting with a used putter, you could get nine hundred in, right? I mean three, three and I mean I I can't imagine these these custom sold covers and stuff like that. Now how else can you so how else can you trick out a putter? So you've you've got obviously the f the the next thing you would do while while you bought this hundred and fifty dollar putter, there wasn't anything special about the shafts and those things, were they? speaker-1: No, no. speaker-0: Right. So you would you you'd get one of these we've talked about different shafts on the market or whatever. But let's just say just a a good KBS black, you know, because the head's black, right? You want a black, you know that's a what, one fifty, two hundred dollar shaft, something like that. speaker-1: 50 I think now that but speaker-0: Time you pay somebody to put it in. Right. speaker-1: Yeah, generally if you went to a shop, just charge you $20 to install it, they're making the money, the markup on the shaft to begin with. that's included. I'd say it'd be $150 for KBS Graphite. speaker-0: And like my and like my little brain works, you know, like I we always talk about I go up one road and who knows if I ever get back. But besides Karsten with the answer, sweating the little ball in there instead of using epoxy, do you know of anybody else that did that? speaker-1: Not that I can think of, no. speaker-0: Do you think that that had something to do with how the putter felt compared to epoxy? speaker-1: Maybe. speaker-0: Explain explain to everybody, like you know, one of our one of our listeners is Pei Chang Chung ⁓ Pei Chang. speaker-1: See you speaker-0: Pay Chang Chen. And that's why we call him Chen. Because I always get stuck on the Chang part, right? But Chen, yeah, Chen, Chen, New York State Open Chan. Chen really listens to the show, likes the show. He's got that new circle tee. I don't think he's won anything with it yet, but he it's he he loves it. And he he likes the show. So he's he's he's he's tricking out a putter. Right, let's just say he wants to put a shaft in that in that circle T. Would you do that in the first place? speaker-1: Personally, no, okay Okay, so for me a steel shafts good enough. speaker-0: You'd leave the circuit alone. I mean I absolutely so now Chen probably has seen this done, right? Somebody broke their putter on his team at Saint John's or, you know, whatever and then You have to drill it out right out of the hazel and clean it up and then you get another shaft and you you know, you rough up the shaft and you always use shaft beads. I know this Jeff Sheets guy is always talking about shaft beads. speaker-1: I'm not a shaft beat guy. speaker-0: Well he is like that. He's got me thinking I can't ever have a golf club again without he's a good salesman. speaker-1: I don't want tell you what I call it, but I use steel wool and just make it so it's really tight. And back in the day, we used to crimp the shafts and so it make them a little bit out of round. So all I really am looking for is that there's a tight fit that it isn't loose. So that's what the shaft beads are about to make it so that it's not loose. Hold it together. the jet, but the. Yeah, but. speaker-0: general idea that everybody has probably seen this, you know, on eBay, I mean on ⁓ on YouTube, is, you know, on a in an iron or putter, right? You're you're roughing up the shaft, you're putting the two-part epoxy, and you're putting some on the chef, putting some in the shaft, you're putting some in the in the in let's say this is an answer copy type putter, and then you're you're plopping it in. And then it sits there and it glues glue dries and you You could put with it for 500 years. But when Karsten designed that plumber's neck, he didn't do it that way, which I mentioned a second ago. So please explain to Chen and all the other people that are trying to say, what are you talking about? He didn't glue it. speaker-1: So what he did was he made the shaft tight enough where it was almost like just barely fitting in. And then he took a ball bearing. speaker-0: Bobby didn't make the shaft where it would he made the he made the female end where it was tight enough for the shaft that was coming from True Temper, surely. speaker-1: Yes, yes. So the fit was pretty tight to begin with. probably had to screw it in pretty, pretty well. So there was a pretty form fitting. Then you took a ball bearing. forget what it was like a three. speaker-0: Like a little marble, like a little marble. speaker-1: Yes. And then he jammed it with like a rod. the bottom and then banged it. speaker-0: What do they what does sweat mean? Sweat it he sweated it in. What do you ⁓ not sweat. speaker-1: No, swedge, swedge. No, swedge. Like you wedge it in, you slam it in. Swedge or swedge? I think it's swedge or swedge. I might be mispronouncing it. speaker-0: Pledge. I think it's called speaker-1: Don't sweat it. Just swedge it. speaker-0: So they banged it in there and it had no epoxy. It just had a little marble in the shaft. And that's how, you know, ⁓ Tom Watson won, you know, a bunch of majors with that thing, except for the duel in in ⁓ in Turnberry, put it with an eight eight ⁓ two. Made everything looked at. Put putt it like putting like gangbusters. So okay. speaker-1: He did. ⁓ If he'd had that putter when he got beat by, what's his name, Stuart Sink? speaker-0: would think he might have made it. Might have made it. speaker-1: ⁓ I watched that second shot coming in with whatever it was an 8 iron. speaker-0: Twenty seventy something to the hole. speaker-1: Every time he hit it, just thought, it's got to stop this. It's got to stop. It's got to stop. it didn't. That was painful. speaker-0: Just pumped. He was just pumped. I I I you know, he was gonna be fifty nine. He was fifty nine. Yeah. I'll never forget because my dad was fifty nine when he passed. So he's just s you know, and he he would by the way, my dad was playing better than ever at fifty nine. All my dad wanted to do in the whole wide world, 'cause I I'd finally, you know, I was doing some some good in this business and he felt like, okay, you know, all the kids are doing okay. speaker-1: What was he 62? speaker-0: He just wanted to make it to sixty-two because he was gonna retire and play golf every day. You understand what I mean? By every day. I mean like unless he had something big Tom, he was gonna play golf every day. And one of the things I I I try to tell people, not not only ⁓ in the Brian Manzella YouTube show and No More Lies with Sam Osborne, but This is the only game in the whole world that you could theoretically, if you were just a you you hit the right ⁓ you know, DNA lottery and stayed away from asbestos and all these things that can hurt you, you could potentially be playing your best golf around 70 years old. Because at some point, right, you're gonna go the other way, you know. But It's the only game in the world like that. I don't think anybody's getting better at playing pickup basketball in their sixties, you know? But Tom Watson, I will stand on any box, made a way better golf swing at fifty nine years old than at any other time before that in his life. speaker-1: don't know what age he was. He shot 61 or maybe even 60 at Newport Beach Country Club. I'd have to check it, but it was less than three. About the same time. Yeah. Wow. Yes, he was good. speaker-0: Was he then? About So okay, so you you you we we're we're sweating swedging. ⁓ man, ⁓ is this is gonna be swagging. It's gonna I'm gonna have to look this up. Okay. So you you can trick out shafts. You could probab there's probably companies that you can order different colors, yes? speaker-1: We're sweating. Sure. I think KBS does that. And that's the other thing Pete can do. He can do the head, the shaft, everything. It'd make it super, super pimp. speaker-0: You know, it sounds really neat to have a black putter with a black shaft, but I found it visually disorienting. Ping did a black answer at some point, but don't know when. Am I misremembering this? speaker-1: They did. speaker-0: And I ordered it with the graphite shaft and I never putted with it on a golf course. I couldn't make any putts inside with it. When I put it down, I guess I had figured out like, you know, the the the visual of what a shaft looked like on the ground and with the contrast, and all of a sudden with the head black and the plumber's neck black and the shaft black and the grip black, I couldn't, I I I just couldn't, and I got my I got my money's worth plus a little bit from somebody because I got it for personal use discount. But there is something to it, right? Just like it's well known by anybody that studied putting fitting for any five minutes, is that you could take a putter like we're we're just happening to be dancing around answer style heads, put a line on it like a new port or a the or the putter that it copied, the the ping answer to. That would be perfect for some people. Some people would line it up worse. With a line. With a line and a dot, some people would line it up better. Some people would line it up worse. If you put that dot and they could line it up with the line. Some people, if you put two lines, they'd be better off. And if you put something different, the visual aspect of how all of that looks on the ground to somebody is pretty darn important. And that shaft changes that a little bit. I don't think people who who get a custom shaft put in their putter kind of realize that. Have you seen any? evidence that I'm not crazy about that when you, you know, have been working with somebody and they get on Sam and all they've changed is the shaft and their putter and all of a sudden things go in a different direction. speaker-1: Not so much that because I haven't had somebody come in with one shaft and then a different shaft later, but I have seen somebody show up with a mallet that had a line on it and he used one of my putters that just had a dot, no line. He could line up the one without the line at all with just the dot. Better than he could with, I think there were three lines on the putter. So you'd think that three lines would be easy to line, it wasn't. He aimed way less. ⁓ accurately with the three lines and he did it with no line. speaker-0: I mean wasn't that the whole was w was Dave Adell or Kirk Kur what was Curry. Who came up with the the idea that you were gonna build a putter fitting system around changing the look of the putter and the alignment ⁓ you know, lines and dots and stuff? speaker-1: Yeah, with the offset and all the other things. speaker-0: Yeah, w was that I mean Dave made it popular probably. speaker-1: I think so. I'm not sure who was first, but I know Dave was credited with pioneering that. I think he's still doing something like that, like you talked about in the previous show. speaker-0: Nicholas Nicholas Punning. Nicholas Punning. Yeah. I did a presentation a couple of years ago. It was fascinating. I wanted to take a lesson. You know, Dave Adele. He's you know, Adele. You know, I gave Roger Cleveland. Yeah. So ⁓ back in the day, ⁓ you know, so PGA teaching and coaching summit, which may never come back, but if I rise to any kind of power in the PGA of America, I'm bringing it back. For people that don't know. speaker-1: Yeah. Lesson once? No. speaker-0: In nineteen eighty quicks or seven, Mike Hebron, who we've been arguing for five years straight on on Facebook about whether, you know, you work on technique or you just let the person figure the technique out on their own. Got no chance. I got a guy I teach Don that it's a wrestling match. He's a really tight, you know, like wound tight guy. And not naturally ⁓ physically oriented to making a inclined body movement, right? And it's a lot of physical work, you know, and I just don't think you can accident into that. Now putting's a little different, right? Because there's not as much physical work, even though Big Don thought that the reason why ⁓ guys putt better than girls in general, this is not a sexist comment, this is a known Fact, he thought it was strength. He thought because you were stronger you could stand there and you know, like, you know, I don't know, more sti stability or whatever. And ⁓ you know, it it's I don't even know where where was I going with this. I mean I went off this big crazy tangent. Have no idea what the hell I'm talking about. The visual that that's the basic thing I was trying to say was the who, you know, the visual of the shaft. We were talking about tricking out putters. Okay. We're very sorry, folks. And listening to Brian Manzala lose his mind in real time. But I'm telling you, that black shaft with that black putter head had I had no chance with that thing. And I've and I've seen that, you know, ⁓ combination many times after that where somebody got a Pretty much a black head, maybe no lines, and then put a a a black shaft, it doesn't have to be graphite, a black shaft in there and I it just I like the way it looks, but I can't putt with it, right? And white shaft is interesting because it's like, whoa, you know, it's so so pop that it better work for your eye alignment. Okay, so here's where I was trying to go back to this point. Okay. One of the pictures you sent me was a picture of a Tiffany bag, you know, the famous Tiffany light green and a Scotty Cameron refinish that's done in the exact Tiffany color. Have you ever seen anybody who was a really good putter putt with something that's a little off on the the standard? In in a on a refinish, like some odd color or whatever, or does those two things kind of mutually exclusive it seems? speaker-1: Odd colors? No. But white? Yes. speaker-0: Yeah. White fang. speaker-1: Right? Right, Feng? speaker-0: So tell the peop tell the people the story of White Fang. Who's White Fang? It's not a person, folks. It's a bullseye. speaker-1: Bullseye Jack Nicklaus. And so the story goes, or the story that I was told was that he was going to use the bullseye, but maybe he was contractually under McGregor's umbrella and they didn't want him to glorify the bullseye. he painted it white so nobody would know that it was a bullseye. I think he won, I don't know, won a tournament with it. speaker-0: US open. I think Baldestraw, maybe. speaker-1: Maybe. Right. And then I think I think McGregor made a white thing so he made I think so I'd have to ask lay long he'd know that for sure speaker-0: Called it white fashion. So Would you discourage somebody from going too far out because you know they're an aspiring player and you don't want, you know, their lime green putter with orange orange alignment lines and and a pink grip and a George Jetson, you know, stenciled sha just distract them? Or would you just say anybody that wants all of that, just go with it? I mean speaker-1: I'd say I'd say go with it. And if you want it, if you use it for a while and if they're that good, they're going to get a circuity Scotty Cameron or a tailor made spider for free anyway. So what the hell? speaker-0: So w you know, on that black putter, black shaft thing, so you know, like the the circle tees that aren't a different color, right? They're they're mostly like the one that Chen has, ⁓ is a i is like a ⁓ speaker-1: They're usually bead blasted stainless. speaker-0: Bead exactly. Bead blasted stainless. Okay. So th am I crazy? I I've said that ten times in this show today. Was the head speed shaft somewhat satin? speaker-1: Some were, but not all of them were. This one is Chrome, because of its age, it's kind of lost its luster. speaker-0: Some words. Okay. Yeah, so the famous design by ⁓ Arnold Palmer Wilson putter that eventually became the eight eighty ⁓ two and then they put a sightline and a and a ninety sight line and it became an eighty eight thirteen, ⁓ had a shaft that was so important to the putter that one day tell me if I get the story wrong now, Crenshaw just kinda like mini dropped it to drop the putter on the ground, like to go chip or something. And just like from like a foot off the ground to on the head, drop it on the head, and the shaft just split right down the damn middle. And he had to get like a world famous silversmith to silver weld the shaft back together and he putted with it and won with it with the silver welding. Is this made up or true? speaker-1: I couldn't tell you if it's true, but I like the story. I don't know that. I do not know that. speaker-0: I I'll look I'll I'll we'll look it up. We'll have the have look at folks, this will be the first one. ⁓ we will I will give a ⁓ I I will give a free v Banzala video of a you know, retail video of any one you want, if you can be the first person to contact us with the ⁓ with the entire Ben Ben Crenshaw ⁓ Silversmith story. I could probably do it to Grok right now, but you know, we're doing a show. But that that chef ⁓ we've talked about it on show before, was very whippy compared to speaker-1: It had some flex. I was talking to Clay about this last night. He weighed up for his brother in 1802. He took a piece of tungsten and ran it from heel to toe. Right. he was shooting for a 350 or there about. A real one. A real one. A real one. And he hollowed out like a canal. Right. speaker-0: Like an actual eighty eight ⁓ two. ⁓ Right. In on the soul. speaker-1: And then he fit a piece of tungsten in there and wedged it in there and glued it in there and smoothed it out. And he said it wasn't appreciably more whippy. I thought it would be, but it wasn't, he said. But I'm still going to do one myself just to see. speaker-0: So in other words, take that that that classic putter, get get one that you that's not the A plus plus of your collection, but you know, a B, and then put some weighting in to get it up to like normal weight standards ish. speaker-1: Yeah, I'd probably go 340 to 350. No heavier than that. think that's to me that feels too heavy. So if it wasn't going to be for me, if I was going to sell it, I'd make it 350. speaker-0: Two things there, right? One. I've seen people do it with answers, like send it to to Pingworks, you know, regular Scottsdale, ⁓ or probably just a regular met you know, eight what what what's the zip code eight five two eight nine? Yeah. And then they do do some tungsten bumpers. speaker-1: O- O- Yeah, I've kind of seen that. They do that in the face too. They have this that looks like a zebra. Yeah. Yes. ⁓ speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: One of those. Harry, Harry, Harry Rudolph gave me one of those. He bought one and didn't like it and said, well, I like it. Here you go. speaker-0: So as far as tricking putters up, you could another thing you could do, you definitely wouldn't do it with a with a circle T unless you just burning money, but you could get somebody to put an insert in it. speaker-1: Yeah, might not be good, for sure you could. There was a guy in the Carolinas that would do that and, know, Clay could certainly do that. know, anybody that has a machine shop, know, Lamont Mann could do it. I'm sure Carrier, whatever his name is, Daniel Carrier, he could do it. So, you know, guys that have machines and good skill for sure could do it. speaker-0: What was the first what was the first insert putter you ever saw? speaker-1: Probably a George Lowe mallet. with that white ivory insert? Yes. speaker-0: That was the first one I ever saw. Yes. That white, it it kind of turned a little, you know, by the time you would, you know, it was in the sixties probably, and we were looking at it probably in the late seventies, early eighties, but Yeah. And ⁓ it it felt pretty good. And then, you know, what was the first, you know, like modern putter with an insert, not Scottie Cameron's trillium? Somebody else did one. speaker-1: Is it oxidized a little bit? Yeah. speaker-0: Or not? Or was that was that the start of all the inserts? speaker-1: I'd have to think long and hard about that one. speaker-0: had to be like ninety five ish, right? Because Tiger putter with that putter in ninety seven masters. speaker-1: Somewhere between those two. Yeah, so I'd say Cameron give him credit for that one It's the one that it started the insert craze, but there's probably one before that. I just can't think of one speaker-0: So so okay, so let's just say you you you're designing a putter and ⁓ three ⁓ three. Why would if this this metal is supposed to be so good? I have a three ⁓ three putter, it it is, okay. I understand that different face etchings, you know, it's different feel. We can talk about that in a second, but why would you do an insert? What's a re good technical reason? to take this block of steel that costs way too much money, milled costs even more money, and now you're gonna decide that, you know, we're gonna make this thing with an insert. speaker-1: I would say the only reason if you were really kind of going sideways with your putting, if you thought you'd get better roll if you put your lines in it like grooves, that'd be the only reason I would think. speaker-0: Not from a not from a golfer standpoint, but if from a from a baking putter standpoint, why would you decide you were gonna do an insert putter on not not an insert putter off of ⁓ you know lesser material and put a better material in the insert? Why would you do a three ⁓ three or another high end grade mill putter and then do an insert in it? People that do it. speaker-1: Like I said, like for instance, Clay's doing one right now where he has, he has grooves in, and then he also has, what do you call it? ⁓ It's like some kind of polymer insert. And then the way that it works is when a ball hits the insert, it immediately jumps into like forward roll. So he has this demonstration. He has the face, you know, perfectly facing the sky. So it's perpendicular to the ground. he drops the ball, takes a vacuum and he has a golf ball in the vacuum, he turns off the vacuum and the thing drops on the insert and it forward rolls. So think that would be the only reason I would think you'd want to do speaker-0: like Taylor Maid, like that's what Taylor Maid's doing. That that that insert that they came up with and I'm sure they've made better over the years, that that is a a noticeably different role off of those spiders because of it, right? So there's one reason to do it right there. Now what would the what would Mark Nunes, you know, feel if you made him a John Otega putter and it was perfectly smooth faced speaker-1: Sure, sure. speaker-0: And as much etching as you would ever recommend. And they were otherwise the same puttering. You said, Hey Mark, you know, let's we we're making you up a putter, let's let's figure out what kind of etching or not you want in the face. And he whacked a couple of ⁓ what would he feel? Probably. speaker-1: I don't know that he would feel it, but generally they feel like the sound is generally a little crisper when you have like a more neural texture. More texture. Yeah, more texture. There's a thing called an impact ratio. It's like smash factor. The smash factor off of a smooth face is greater than when you put grooves or anything, any kind of friction. So that would be what you'd be telling him that he'd be getting from it. I don't know if he could discern. speaker-0: Come off a little softer and maybe feel like it was tingier. speaker-1: ⁓ Actually opposite if it came out soft you need more muted. Yes. Yes speaker-0: That's been my experience. I really like I think, you know what I mean? It's like one of those things you don't know because you'd have to almost A B it, right? But I think I want the my if I ever got one custom for me, I think I would go smooth because I like the thing to just jump off the putter. I I've been playing with the ⁓ the ⁓ titless Pro V one X left dash because it's hard as a Brian Manzella forehead and it I just like The thing to take off. I just want to go bip and it go bang. You know, I'd putt with a Wilson Ultra if they'd let me, you know, ball switch. Okay. All right. So now we've we've got this head, we got insert, we got fancy shafts. We got some of them are Tiffany Green. Now we're at the grip. So my favorite grip's the Garson. I I like all of his grips. What what is what's your favorite grip company and and ⁓ and what what do you think of the Garsons? speaker-1: I like the Garsens. I've had a few. They're nice. I had a few of the ones that had the little peak on them. Yep. Remember those? The OGs? Yep. So you can put your thumbs on the side. Yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ runyon putting which I did for several years, right? speaker-1: Or you could turn it sideways if you like the that little spine in your left hand or sideways. Those were kind of cool. speaker-0: So they they had a put they had a putter that in you know, like ⁓ what for most people just I don't have to do the visual. You got a flat spot on the putter. It's you know, not flat in the back and then you can't do this on a regular golf club, l you know, the rules of golf. So only a putter can have a flat I mean, you know, flat. If you get a superstroke and it's a big superstroke, the flat spot could be huge. But you know, let's just say we're going back to we're going back to our roots of small grips like the ⁓ what do they call the the ping putter grip, the tiger putter? speaker-1: with pink pink blackout. But blacked it out. Yeah, the pink man but the specific one that he did was the black out. speaker-0: Right. He used to do it with a marks lot when he was younger. speaker-1: Now they come that way. speaker-0: Yeah. So so you you have this you have a flat spot and you put your thumbs on it and p p you know, predominantly is what people would do. What Garson did was he just w with it's like a reminder, he put the the where the flat spot would be, he put a a ⁓ a peak and then with the with the idea that Paul Runyon famously putted and chipped by turning his thumbs from down the shaft. speaker-1: Peak. Yeah. speaker-0: to forty-five degrees on both sides of the shaft to kind of take the wrists out of it. I'm telling you what it does do. It if you a little yippy, all of a sudden what was in Jacob's 3D land we call alpha rotation, you know, the putter or the club going around the clock as you look at it from face on, that would be all flexion extension, like, you know, wrist putting like Horton Smith, right? Just Bend your right wrist back, arch your left wrist, and then go the other way. Right. Well, you turn your hands enough under where the palms are more facing. Now all of a sudden, that same action, perpendicular to the face, alpha action, is cock and uncock. And when I'm telling you, it's so different that your brain, like it's, you know, I think that's the same thing with the claw and all of these things. It's just you your brain doesn't remember that, you know, it couldn't putt other way. Basically. If you were gonna have a p a putter grip made that is not made right now. You have a wish list, like one grip? I have one, but I'll I'm asking you first. speaker-1: I know what yours is. Why don't you go first? That gives me time to think about some food. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. So so so So I want I want I want the thing up against my left arm. Now I I I'm I'm putting that way right now, but ⁓ the the the day will come, maybe next time I play golf, that I'll go back to up against my left arm. So I want the thing to cheat as much as possible th in that direction. In other words, Bill Pressey did the the the press grip where he took, you know, the grip and he bored it out. And then the USGA made a ruling that can only be borne about three degrees or whatever out of the hole in the grip is not straight through the grip. I would do that. I would do is the biggest. So I want the I want the most sticking to the left. I'm a right-handed golfer of the grip as possible with the least amount sticking out to the right. So that I I can grip it and basically have my arms in a in a normal position and have the dawn grip up against my left arm. It would be, believe me, all over if it had ever happened. 'Cause I've kinda done it with like pool noodles and stuff like that. And it's like it's not even fair. And and it's not because I'm that good a putter that way 'cause I I've never been able to actually putt that way. But when I'm telling you, it would save a lot of people. I don't know why nobody's maxed it out. I I've got one of those ⁓ Midlocks over there, you know. I don't know what company that is, but ⁓ that's the I don't know who makes that put a grip, but that's even roll, right? The midlock grip. Do you have a wish list grip to to finish the show off? speaker-1: I do now. I want a slip-on leather grip, kind of like the Lampkin. Yep. It had a stitching in the back and I like it. made the standard size and also one a little bit bigger, which back in the day that was a really cool grip and somehow they discontinued it. So I'd like a, know, a read. speaker-0: That company that's doing those kangaroo leather grips, like I have two people that I've taught in the that I teach in the last six months that have gotten a brand new set of clubs and got the kangaroo leather grips on them. And they are tacky as hell. So we'll we'll figure out who that company is and we'll get a John Ortega model. speaker-1: So sometimes I'll listen to our podcasts in the past. Yeah. Improved it being a podcast guy since I'm a new podcast guy. Yeah. And a couple of times ago you said you were going to play the tailor made spider. speaker-0: Hm. No, but I I I I I promise, I promise the sale made spider song. speaker-1: Not this time? No. Okay, I promise you that's one of the songs I've been listening to. What's his name? Peter Cetera? Yep. Hard for me to say I'm sorry. Yes. It's hard for to say you're sorry that you can't do it today. speaker-0: That's right. Do you know how Peter Zotera came up with the sound? Do you know that story? Since we started with music, we'll end with music? speaker-1: What's that? How do you come up? speaker-0: He I think he went to a Dodgers game and they were arguing with the there was like, you know, hey, you yeah, you're making too much noise back there. You you spilled a piece of popcorn, whatever, and the guy decked him and broke his jaw. They had a bunch of jobs to do. So instead of being able to sing, Mary had a little ham little, right? He went, Mary had a little, his wire shut. He sang anyway. And he had to project different and speaker-1: That was it. That was the sound now. speaker-0: The luckiest thing that ever happened to him because I mean he's got a unique, you know, sound. And a a great singer and bass player, by the way. speaker-1: For sure. One of my favorite. Okay, I'm gonna hold you to it. speaker-0: But my favorite but my favorite is We'll play we'll play the ity bitsy spider. speaker-1: No speaker-0: I lost my train of thought too many times in this show. But it's it's fun. See, piping is fun. And you can trick out your stuff, man. Go all on. Go all the way. speaker-1: It's very fun. We gotta highlight more trick patterns. I'll show you my pink one coming up. speaker-0: George Jetson speaker-1: for sure speaker-0: It sure is.