Latest / The Twin History Podcast / Why the World Went to War: The Road to 1914 Part 1

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Why the World Went to War: The Road to 1914 Part 1 · The Twin History Podcast

0:01
The Twin History Podcast brings together 2 Black Scotsman, 2
0:06
twins, 1 historian and one storyteller to explore the
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moments that shaped our world. The show features Joe McCann,
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the eldest twin and resident storyteller, the one always
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asking why any of this actually matters, alongside Johnny
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McCann, 13 minutes younger, and the historian.
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Equipped with the dates, the fact and the receipts, Every
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week they invite listeners to pull up a chair as they unpack
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some of history's greatest tales, The ones you think you
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know, the ones you've never heard, and the ones that hit
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different when told by them. Enjoy.
1:23
Picture this It's summer of 1914.
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Europe is basically one big powder keg.
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Secret treaties everywhere, empires flexion.
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Everyone's racing to build bigger guns and bigger navies.
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Then on a random Sunday in Sarajevo, a 19 year old kid
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named Gabriel Principa gets lucky twice in one morning and
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puts 2 bullets into Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife
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Sophie. One wrong turned by the driver,
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one sign he shot later and boom, the spark hits the shoes.
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Within 5 weeks half the world is at war.
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That's serious, man. Four years later, 20 mil 20
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million people are dead, 4 empires are gone, and the stage
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is set for pretty much everything awful that happens in
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the 20th century and your life. So tonight we're asking the big
2:16
one, how the hell did a single assassination in a city most
2:20
people had never heard of dragged the entire planet into
2:23
the bodies war I'd ever seen? Grab a drink.
2:26
Set one were heading back to 1914 and the long messy road to
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the Great War Welcome back to the twin History podcast.
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Thank you for listening wherever you are.
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And if you are listening order this should be episode 3.
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Today we were talking about the First World War and as always,
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I'm here with Johnny McCann. How are we today?
2:49
I'm good. How are you?
2:50
I'm good, thank you. Well, I'm great.
2:52
Actually. Last night we we had to evacuate
2:55
our our flat or apartment where we lived in Edinburgh as there
2:59
was a a fire in the adjacent building.
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But we got out safely and we're back here to talk about one of
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the most defining moments in the in world history.
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Is that correct? Yeah, absolutely.
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It's one of the the most most important moments in world
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history. And I'm just glad everyone was
3:18
OK. I mean, just to clarify the
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fire, well, in the war, they were OK.
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There was 20 million dead. But you dispute that figure.
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I wouldn't dispute the figure. I would just say like 20
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million. You need to.
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I mean, a lot of those casualties would have been from
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the Spanish floor, which broke out late 1917, early 20/19/18.
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So a lot of those casualties. So I mean a conservative
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estimate would be about 18,000,000, but some historians
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put it as low in inverted commas as 15.
3:51
OK, well in our introduction we say 20 million.
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So if we're if I'm wrong on that, then please shoot.
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Me. Yes, I will.
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OK, so it's fair to say that every historian probably has
4:03
their own specialist subject. And the First World War is your
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specialist subject. Is that right, Johnny?
4:09
Well, the First World War, the Second World War, one empire,
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American history. Yeah, but it's mainly the causes
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of the First World War and not the war itself.
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But that's fine. The causes are always something
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we can look at on the Twin History podcast.
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How do you intend to tell the story to our listeners?
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Well, we definitely won't do an additive account.
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I I find that so bad. I don't want to say boring, but
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I'd rather not do an additive account of events as they
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happened. We'll get into everything
4:41
through the causes through the war and but it won't be an
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additive like A-Z account of the war.
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I would argue that even without not being a narrative account
4:53
here is going to be boring. It's the causes of the First
4:56
World War. You read a story without
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conflict, you'll bore your audience to tears.
5:03
And what are you talking about? Nothing happens in the world.
5:06
Are you out of your fucking mind?
5:08
Sorry. That's from my adaptation.
5:10
Well, you all. But you could have done a
5:11
Scottish accent because the Brian Cox character in that
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Scottish, is he not? No, he's American.
5:16
What do you mean Scottish American accent?
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Brian Cox can do an American accent, dude.
5:21
Succession. Well, that was that was like
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2001, wasn't it? 2000 and 2000.
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Well, I actually know someone who worked with him on on a
5:30
project and he he said he was like.
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Prec basically, just as he seems on screen, but I don't know,
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he's a national treasure. So, well, I, I dispute that.
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Brian Cox, I know people work with him too.
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I know producers from the BBC and they said he was, he was a
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tough but lovely man, a very talented man.
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So yes, but these were producers, these were like
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runners and stuff and people at lower levels.
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Yeah, of course with runners, they're always, well, they get
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treated like shit by everyone. It's just the nature of the the
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job. But obviously I'm joking when I
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say the First World War is is boring.
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So let's get into what does Europe look like in 1914?
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Well, the few were Years in Europe were notable for the
6:17
seismic changes to the political landscape in particular, but
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seen as a beacon of hope and democracy was well in a way to
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become an, if not an illegitarian.
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Society at least a more fair one.
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So the Liberal government reforms between 19 O 6 and the
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outbreak of the First World War revolutionised the welfare
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statement and attempted to at least challenge the causes of
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poverty on a scale that never been seen before in Britain.
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And obviously at this time, Britain was a a beautiful utopia
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where every man, woman and child were free to do whatever they
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pleased and lived in an unimaginable wealth.
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And of course, women had to vote at this time, right?
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Well, of course not all women had to vote.
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And that wouldn't change until 1928 when it became like all
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women over the age of 21, I think by the end of 1918.
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All women over the age of 30 had the vote.
7:16
So obviously not everyone had the vote and not everyone was
7:20
enfranchised. But as I was saying, like the
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Liberal government reforms, you get the old age Pensions Act,
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precursor to the the pension. So that came out in 19819 O 6
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sorry. And the National Insurance Act
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came out in 1911. So so talking about the pension
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by the time my child is. Of pension age, the state
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pension is going to be long gone, but that's probably for
7:46
another podcast, an order debate.
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But yeah, well, there it's fair to say there are a few changes
7:52
in Britain at this time. Yeah, I mean, that's a
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fairpoint. And that was one of the
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limitations of the Old Age Pensions Act because you had to
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live until the age of 70 before you even got it.
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So yeah, that that's for another podcast.
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And the National Insurance Act, it was only for workers who
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weren't. On long term sickness, so I
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think if you were off work for more than 24 weeks, you were
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then like you just you didn't receive any.
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You weren't eligible to receive eligible, yeah, to receive
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money. But but we do see a pattern of
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modernization and a social and political at social and
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political level. So the Liberal government were
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looking to procure the votes of the burgeon and working classes,
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as obviously we know the Labour government around about 19 O 6
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became a part of it. We see in Germany as well, like
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Bismarck had brought in healthcare provisions, old age
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pensions decades before the British.
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Is this Otto von Yeah, Otto von Bismarck, the first chancellor
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the the sharp. Yeah.
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So Germany, unlike Britain, was not a constitutional monarchy.
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OK. So Britain was not a
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constitutional monarchy. What does that mean?
9:05
No no, Breton was Germany wasn't.
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OK well what does that mean? It just means basically that the
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government essentially has like the most power in that system
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like Germany and Germany. Kaiser Wellingham the second had
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full planet potentially powers over the right stack, foreign
9:25
policy and military affairs. However, like all adult males in
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pre war Germany were enfranchised.
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OK that that's great to hear. What about women?
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Were women enfranchised in Germany?
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Women were allowed to vote in places like New Zealand and I
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think Sweden and maybe even Slovenia.
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Women were around allowed to vote at that time.
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But like in Germany, we saw the modernisation and progressive
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views of the Mail voters culminated in the Social
9:56
Democrats becoming the largest party in the right stack.
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And this was just two years before the outbreak of the First
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World War. And as we all know, no German
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and no one who speaks German could ever be evil, right?
10:09
Yeah, yeah, of course they could.
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Also, even in autocratic Tsarist Russia, they had made tentative
10:15
steps to appease the growing search for representation in her
10:18
vast empire. So like working class
10:21
discontent, the emancipation of the serfs in 1861, the growth of
10:26
industrial cities of the what the the serfs.
10:30
OK, sorry. Yeah.
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Did I say the serfs? The serfs I bought The Smurfs.
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In 1861, growth of industrial cities, the humiliating defeat
10:43
in the Russian Japanese war in 19041905, the Japanese won.
10:48
Yeah, they won. Yeah, they absolutely bested the
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Russian military, the Navy in particular, and those workers
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the Russians fought that the Japanese were an easy mark.
10:58
And they they weren't happy with what Japan were doing in the Far
11:02
East, particularly around some of their, like, empire holdings.
11:05
So they wanted to put them in their place and they got
11:08
absolutely destroyed. So that'll be a great episode
11:12
sometime in the future. Yeah.
11:13
We'll get into it further when we get into the causes of the
11:16
war. But that all these factors and
11:19
other situations created a perfect storm that almost swept
11:22
the Romanov dynasty away in 1905.
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So at the assistance of Sergey Vetti, the chairman of the
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Committee of Ministers of the Russian Empire and future Prime
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Minister, Zar Nicholas the Second reluctantly accepted
11:36
dramatic political change that included the new parliament,
11:39
constitution, guarantee of workers rights.
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So the dam held in 1905. But Zar Nicholas the Second was
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so arduous and firmly believed in his right to rule and that
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his crown had been bestowed on him by God, that he didn't fully
11:54
grasp the immediate danger to his dynasty.
11:57
Well, wasn't that true, that the crown had been bestowed on him
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by God Almighty himself? So yeah, Czar Nicholas
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definitely believed in absolutism.
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Absolutism, if I can even say that.
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You said that pretty well bro. So he, he, he believed that his
12:12
crown was bestowed on him by God.
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And I actually, I mean, I felt sorry for him in a sense,
12:17
because he never wanted to become czar.
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And I mean, I I said in something I wrote on the
12:24
Russians that he was born to Rome, not to lead.
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And well, that's very well put. Yeah.
12:30
Thank you. It's beautifully fucking
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illustrated too. So the idea of absolutism comes
12:38
from England. And obviously England was not a
12:41
constitutional monarchy until the 17th century.
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So there there was a famous speech by King James the 6th
12:48
when he went to Parliament and basically said like all your
12:52
cuts, I'll bring this roof down on you by the power of God if
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you don't. He used the word cuts.
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Of course. No, no, he didn't.
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Of course he didn't. This was 1610 and the word cut
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didn't exist at this time. It didn't exist at that time,
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but the the parliament obviously were he's the king.
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So they're respectful, but we basically told him to get lost.
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And as the decades went, as the decades went on, like Britain
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became a full constitutional monarchy and like 1666.
13:20
I wonder when the word cotton was was invented.
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If we had an assistant here, we could ask them.
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I could ask my wife, but she's working.
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And she would bat me over the head with a baseball bat like
13:32
the scene from The Untouchables. If I asked her to do that, I
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mean, she maybe would call me that as well.
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Yeah, probably. But anyway, if we're getting
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back to the timeline, if we're saying Czar Nicholas was so
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removed from the realities on the ground.
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So yeah, very few monarchs in history have been so removed
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from the realities on the ground.
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Azar Nicholas the 2nd and there's a great thing.
13:54
And Orlando Fig is A people's Tragedy, which is about the
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Russian Revolution. And after Azar Nicholas was
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deposed, he wrote in his diary he basically said they were the
14:06
best weeks of his life because he no longer had to row an
14:11
empire. He was getting to read like at
14:14
night. He could go for long walks in
14:16
the countryside during the day. But obviously this shows how up
14:20
to he was because he didn't realise how much danger he was
14:23
in and how much danger his family was in.
14:26
He obviously didn't realise they were going to be brutally
14:28
murdered by the Bolsheviks. But I think that just shows you
14:33
like an indication of Tsar Nicholas's.
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How out of touch she actually was.
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How out of touch she was. Yeah.
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But to be fair to Sir Nicholas, one of his daughters managed to
14:43
escape and got fished out of a river in Berlin and lived the
14:47
rest of her days in America as a a famous Princess.
14:51
So it wasn't all bad. Yeah.
14:53
Yeah. Well, that's not true because
14:54
obviously she was killed. The rest of the Romanov family.
14:58
So, well, it's a great story and it's one we're going to hold
15:02
onto and believe on the Twin History podcast.
15:05
I mean, I always the Bolsheviks, I understood why they killed the
15:09
children. You don't want to leave 11 error
15:11
who might like escape into another part of Europe or the
15:14
world like the Initially King Edwards offered sanctuary to Zar
15:21
Nicholas and the Romanovs in London.
15:25
But because of the war and how many people had died, there was
15:28
a public outcry. And you can't have like one of
15:31
the enemy combatants, leaders or like monarchs coming to England.
15:37
So who else left the living there and and paid the price for
15:42
the King Robert? King Robert.
15:45
King Robert in Game of Thrones. All right, OK.
15:48
I've never seen Game of Thrones. Or A Song of Ice and Fire, who
15:50
left the Living era and the two living Ers and they've managed
15:54
to escape. Reference.
15:55
So you don't. You've never seen Game of
15:58
Thrones or read A Song of Ice and Fire.
16:00
I've got the books here if you want to read them.
16:02
Well, maybe at some point. But in sharp contrast, as R
16:05
Nicholas the Second, Franz Joseph, the Emperor of Austro
16:10
Hungary, was a completely different proposition
16:12
altogether. Why was he a different
16:14
proposition to Sir Nicholas, who you obviously weren't a fan of?
16:18
I I don't say I wasn't a fan of him.
16:20
I, I actually, you called the guy the the dumbest cunt ever
16:23
left. I I don't say that.
16:24
I said he was just completely removed from reality.
16:28
But I don't think he was evil or a bad person.
16:30
You got to read some nice books before they shot him.
16:33
Yeah, and they were killed brutally, the whole family.
16:37
But anyway, the difference was, despite his advancing years,
16:41
King Joseph was assured enough to understand that dynastic
16:45
interest could be fused with Democratic Change.
16:48
So as early as the 1880's the franchise was extended to lower
16:53
traditional male middle class voters and basically the
16:59
equivalent of peasants in Austria.
17:02
So that's then turned Austria into a liberal utopia.
17:05
But we can see a genuine effort at democratic reform in the
17:08
decades, decades before the First World War.
17:11
And as early as 1896, Franz Joseph gave approval to
17:15
Universal Selfridge. Well, that that's, that was
17:18
great over my guess. But what did his empire look
17:21
like at this time? His empire, His empire.
17:24
I mean, we'll get into that as the cause.
17:27
His first, the empire was like by the start of the First World
17:31
War, the empire was crumbling. It wouldn't have mattered if
17:35
they won the war, that empire would have been extinguished.
17:37
So I think some Hungarians would dispute that.
17:41
No, I mean, obviously Hungary became part of the the empire,
17:45
Austro Empire in 1867 and the compromised or the antlers as we
17:51
call it. But they no, that empire was on
17:56
borrowed time by the time we get to the First World War.
17:58
And it's one of the main causes of the First World War in my
18:02
main belief as to why the war started.
18:04
So we'll get on to that. But your assessment is that they
18:08
would have, they would have lost that empire in any case,
18:12
therefore, without the war. Yeah, just for various reasons.
18:15
The nationalistic question was a question that had plagued
18:21
Austria since the 16th century. So they made the mistake in the
18:25
16th century of incorporating traditional Slavic lands into
18:31
their empire. Up until then, it mainly being
18:34
German speaking lands. They were part of the empire.
18:37
And you, you, I mean, the empire did endure for almost 1000
18:41
years. So you, you have to understand
18:45
that. But it's like 1000 year Reich,
18:48
1000 year Reich, yes. But maybe we're not as insidious
18:52
intentions behind it. But OK.
18:56
So Franz Joseph was one of the few monarchs in history who I
18:59
respect because I'm a Republican in the British sense, not the
19:03
American sense. Let's not get political here.
19:06
Yes, we shan't get political. So his wife had been murdered by
19:11
an Italian partisan of in 1890. Isabella, beautiful woman.
19:15
There's a beautiful portrait of her in one of my history books.
19:19
And he never remarried after that.
19:21
And he he died in 1916. But he was, he was genuinely.
19:28
You sound like Royal Tenebaum, by the way.
19:30
Your mother was a very attractive woman.
19:32
I'm sorry for your loss. He was.
19:34
He was generally a great monarch and a great ruler.
19:40
OK, so that's a snapshot of what Europe was like at the time.
19:44
Should we get into the conflict a little bit?
19:46
We'll get into the conflict. But obviously that was a very
19:50
like small snapshot of Europe when we're getting into the
19:53
causes of the war. It's going to, we'll branch out
19:57
into into more detail. Yeah.
19:59
It'll be something of a deep dive.
20:00
So that's something I look forward to listeners.
20:03
Yeah, but let's get into the conflict then.
20:05
What would you like to say on that?
20:07
So just as you said at the beginning, conservative estimate
20:10
there were like 20 million people dead, maybe 18 million in
20:16
total. We we see trench warfare being
20:19
used, but it'd been used before, so the First World War.
20:23
Is precipitated by the American Civil War in terms of use a
20:29
modern weaponry, but like close up fighting and also modern
20:34
weaponry with 19th century war tactics essentially.
20:39
So if you want a very like I'm I'm more interested in like how
20:45
we got here like how did the war happen?
20:47
So if you want a deep dive into the minute details of the
20:52
battles themselves, I would recommend John Keegan's very
20:56
imaginatively titled The First World War because he's a
20:59
military historian, or he was, but what else was he going to
21:03
name the book? Yeah, good point.
21:05
Good point. So he also wrote a great book on
21:08
American Civil War, although there were some controversial
21:11
aspects in that book because he he compared General Sherman's
21:16
March, famous March to the sea to to the behaviour, ideological
21:23
warfare that the SS and the Waffen used in Eastern Europe
21:30
when the Germans invaded Russia in 1941.
21:35
You you said that Sherman used similar tactics in the the
21:39
American South, but were those tactics to be?
21:43
Found upon or. Yeah.
21:44
I mean, you're doing crop burning, you're doing executions
21:49
without military trial, you're terrorising the local populace.
21:55
Some people say Archegan claims that there were like mass sexual
22:00
assaults by Union soldiers under Sherman's command during his
22:05
March to the sea. But I mean, some historians
22:07
would dispute that. And I, I was a bit taken aback
22:10
that he compared it to the SS in in 1941 in their ideological
22:17
warfare essentially in Russia and in Eastern Europe.
22:21
OK, well, that's, this is maybe something we can get into later.
22:27
But everyone did expect this war to be over by Christmas, didn't
22:31
they? Yeah.
22:31
And that, that's a tragic that, well, the tragedy of the First
22:35
World War that we were, they were fighting with.
22:40
They then realise that modern weaponry, how disruptive it
22:44
could be because they're still using 19th century military
22:48
tactics. Basically in the 20th century is
22:53
set in the 20th century is set in, you've got four years of
22:58
utter carnage. And even today, like the
23:01
military tactics are not clearly known or understood them.
23:05
What were they trying to achieve in certain, like in certain
23:10
areas, in certain and certain battles and certain operations?
23:15
What what are they trying to achieve?
23:17
And yeah, it's it's just, yeah, it's something of a tragedy, of
23:24
course. Yeah.
23:25
I mean, it's the war that upsets me more than most because when
23:30
we get into the causes, it's a war that absolutely did not have
23:34
have to happen. And I've said this in history
23:36
class before, if you ask 100 different historians why the
23:40
First World War broke out, you'll get 100 different
23:43
answers. So if there's not a clear reason
23:46
to be at war like in 1939, what Hitler has to be stopped his
23:52
genocide or embracement of Leberstone to try and like
23:59
retake land? There wasn't even German land to
24:02
begin with. There's not a clear reason as to
24:05
why the First World War. Happened and I always speak to
24:09
our learners and round, round about Armistice Day.
24:14
Armistice Day, yeah, we are learners.
24:15
So just to make the distinction for listeners, Johnny's also an
24:20
educator as well as a historian. So he's talking about is, is
24:25
pupils, Pupils. Yeah, students.
24:27
So we call them learners. But as I've said, it's the word
24:31
that upsets me more than most. And roundabout Remembrance Day
24:35
or Armistice Day as it was first called, I always stressed the
24:39
importance to our learners and by honouring the men who fought
24:44
and died in the First World War. And if we look at Britain,
24:48
almost 1,000,000 young men died. Well don't let's not open this
24:52
can what was a bit Remembrance Sunday.
24:55
But no we're not. Yes it's been.
24:57
And I said this, I always do a post on X about it and I said it
25:01
this year that has sadly been Co opted by the far right in the UK
25:06
and it's lost all meaning. But as I said, like I always
25:10
speak to our kids about it, particularly the S3 and S4 boys.
25:15
And I tell them and the and the how old are these boys?
25:19
So they would they would have been, they would have been
25:21
around like 15 or 16. So they'd be of fighting age.
25:24
They would have been of fighting age.
25:25
So if they'd been alive at that time, they would have been
25:28
drafted in 1916 when the draft comes in in the UK.
25:32
So when you look at those boys and see how frail they are, see
25:36
how small they are, you just realise how tragic the whole
25:39
situation was. And it's just all the more
25:42
tragic because it was completely and utterly avoidable.
25:46
And as I, as I said, like I will speak to them about it and just
25:52
stress the importance of remembering.
25:54
And I mean, I, I always equate myself to Jeff Bridges and
25:58
Arlington Rd when his wife was killed in a Waco style like FBI
26:03
botched raid. And he takes his students to it
26:06
one day and he's almost in tears when he's telling the story.
26:09
And after he's set up as like a terrorist later you see his
26:13
students on the news and they're like, he, he brought us here and
26:17
he was like crying when he told the story.
26:19
So I think sometimes when I speak to the kids about the
26:23
First World War and the importance of remembering the
26:26
men who fell because we had like a lost generation of men in the
26:31
UK after that, because so many young men died.
26:34
And the thing, the distinctive thing about the First World War
26:37
is so many officers died. And this goes back to the Civil
26:41
War as well. It's unusual for so many
26:44
officers to lead battalions. So there, I mean, I'm not sure
26:49
if the figures in the in the Civil War, but in the First
26:53
World War, like 40,000 British officers died at the front.
26:59
So yeah, I always, I'm sure when I'm speaking to the kids about
27:02
it, I do become quite emotional. But I think it's important.
27:06
You're getting emotional now, bro.
27:07
I get emotional now but it's. OK, this is a safe space for.
27:13
But it's just, it is upsetting because as I said, it just
27:17
should not have happened. So but what?
27:19
Isn't there a counter argument to that point that if you said
27:23
all these empires were going to break up?
27:26
In any case, we fought the war. But isn't a breakup of a empire
27:30
always preceded by war? That's a great question.
27:36
Francisco Pizarro, who led the Spanish invasion of Peru in the
27:41
the 15 in the 16th century of the 1500s.
27:45
He he, he said a great quote. He said an empire divided is an
27:51
empire conquered. OK, that's a beautiful quote,
27:55
Speaking of Peru. Well, well, I mean a beautiful
27:57
quote. I mean basically precipitated
28:00
genocide. But yes.
28:02
But yeah, it's a very, I mean, it's an apartment quote for the
28:05
the state of the Americas that the term.
28:07
Is it? Yeah.
28:08
Well, it's a great encapsulation of of that type of mindset.
28:14
And Speaking of Peru, there's a great TV series on Apple TV just
28:17
now called Pluribus. And one of the main characters
28:22
is lives in Peru and. Oh, I thought everyone said it
28:24
was Peruvian. Well, yeah, He's Peruvian.
28:27
Yeah. The character's Peruvian.
28:28
It's a great show. It's.
28:29
He's Peruvian and he lives in Peru.
28:32
Yeah. Where else would he have left?
28:35
Is it? But it's a it's a great show and
28:38
it's one that divides audiences. But, yeah, look into that if you
28:42
get a chance. Absolutely.
28:44
So should we talk about some of the aftermath and maybe the the
28:49
most. Well.
28:50
One of the most famous treaties of all time, I would argue, is a
28:53
fair sized treaty. Should we dive into that a
28:56
little bit? Yeah.
28:57
So the treaty for size, this was it would have been 1919.
29:01
This treaty was agreed on. So the Germans had lost the war.
29:06
So the treaty was basically enforced on them by the untaught
29:13
powers. So essentially they were made to
29:16
take full responsibility for starting the war.
29:20
The French took back Alain's Loren, which they had lost to
29:24
the Germans in 1870. I think that happened.
29:29
So Poland were granted land. Like Germany were to pay 6.6
29:34
billion in reparations. They weren't to have more than
29:37
100,000 soldiers. They weren't allowed in Air
29:40
Force. The Navy was vastly dismissed,
29:43
diminished. They weren't allowed an Angelus
29:46
with Austria. We know how that went and then.
29:51
Yeah, we do. So that was forbidden.
29:53
So the Czar land was taken, Poland given industrial parts of
30:00
upper Salaca and like they were given the corridor to the Baltic
30:05
colonies were also taken off Germany.
30:08
So you, you have to understand, I mean, even in 1945, as
30:12
ridiculous as it sounds, there were still fear of German
30:16
revanchism that Germany would like remilitarize and then like
30:22
start another massive conflict, which for me was absurd in 1945.
30:27
I mean, the absolute ruins Germany was in, but that that's
30:31
where the UN was born from from. And that's, that was the plan in
30:36
1919181919 to try and stop Germany from becoming because
30:43
they were seen. And we'll get into it in the
30:45
causes. They were seen as the main
30:47
aggressor by a lot of the other European powers.
30:50
Yeah, a lot of historians as well.
30:52
Well, that's a question I would ask.
30:54
If no one was to blame and no one can settle on A cause for
30:59
the war, why were Germany punished so harshly?
31:02
Because they lost. OK, so to the victor goes the
31:05
spoils. Get out of here before I shove
31:08
your quotation book up your fat fucking hours.
31:11
What's that from Sopranos? OK, well, well, that that's a
31:15
terrible Tony Soprano accent. I do apologise.
31:17
It is terrible. I mean, it's, it didn't.
31:20
I don't think they say ours in America, do they?
31:22
They say us. Well, no, of course they say us,
31:25
but I was doing my bit. But yeah, anyway, the the
31:29
Germany has lost the war, so that's why they were seen as the
31:33
aggressor. And as I said, historians to
31:36
this day blame Germany for the outbreak of war.
31:39
And you're saying there has to be like an aggressor or there
31:43
has to be like someone to blame. But at the end of the day, there
31:47
were many, there were a lessening of reasons why the war
31:51
happened and there was blame to go all around.
31:53
So, OK, so obviously Germany weren't the the sole cause of
31:58
this conflict. They were they definitely
32:00
weren't the sole cause. But the The thing is the treaty
32:03
for size, I mean, it basically facilitates the rise of fascism
32:09
in the 20s because of that treaty.
32:11
And Hitler essentially launched his political quote unquote
32:16
career on the back of that. And I've got.
32:20
I've got a. Go ahead.
32:22
No, go on. I've got a quote from Ian
32:24
Kershaw if you want me to read it.
32:26
Yeah, yes, please. And what did Kershaw say?
32:31
So he said the last two years of the war could not help but make
32:35
the deepest impression on Hitler, who had supported the
32:38
German cause so fanatically and who had from the outset
32:43
condemned all defeated suggestions so vehemently.
32:46
So he goes on to say that Hitler, when he heard of the
32:49
Treaty of for size or the agreement to end the war, he
32:52
said it was the greatest felony of the century.
32:55
Oh, OK. Well, we'll get we'll definitely
32:58
do episodes on Adolf Hitler at some point.
33:01
We will. And just to say more on the
33:02
treaty for size, I I always disagree with this argument that
33:09
the Treaty of Versailles led to the Second World War.
33:13
Some historians, most famously George Keenan, he put forward
33:20
the 30 year war thesis so that that basically said that the
33:26
Second World War is a continuation of the first.
33:28
So because of the conditions at the end of the First World War
33:31
was absolutely no other time period.
33:34
That someone is absurd. Has Hitler risen to become
33:39
chancellor of the most scientifically, most socially
33:43
most advanced nation in in Europe?
33:48
You could argue, well, wasn't there?
33:50
Well, I, I mean, I'm going on the basis of what my history
33:55
teacher said, but she, her argument, or their argument was
34:00
that Germany was ripe for a Hitler because he had been led
34:04
by by, well, we individuals like Hitler in the past.
34:10
So she compared Hitler. Yeah.
34:13
She compared Hitler to Bismarck. Is that an unfair comparison?
34:17
I think it's a very unfair comparison.
34:19
And I, I don't you're preempt to me here because I, I want to get
34:22
into the, the Fisher argument about that.
34:26
OK, We can get into that in a later time.
34:29
Then you want to leave that for later?
34:31
Yeah, we'll leave that for later.
34:32
But yeah. Tell us a little more about
34:34
Forsydon. So obviously it's a very
34:38
punitive, like, treaty. And yeah, without a Hitler
34:44
doesn't come to power. I mean, as I said, like the
34:47
political ascendancy of this absurd figure like Hitler would
34:51
not be possible without that document.
34:53
But I would argue against the historians who say that that
34:59
treaty. Basically led to the Second
35:02
World War and without it, the Second World War wouldn't have
35:04
happened. We won't get into that now.
35:07
Well, let's get into that a little bit because if you're
35:09
saying that without without that treaty, historians argue without
35:15
that treaty, the Second World War doesn't happen.
35:18
And but you're you argue against that point.
35:21
But on the flip side of that coin, you're saying Hitler would
35:24
never came to power without that treaty.
35:26
So isn't the the answer? Somewhere in the middle, it
35:31
might be somewhere in the middle was maybe like Patty Dosko in
35:34
his hands. But Hitler, Hitler was an
35:38
utterly absurd quote unquote and brackets and statesman.
35:44
So he's the head of state in Germany and he's just when it
35:50
became to negotiations, he's just so unconventional in
35:54
negotiations. You know the famous saying like
35:58
carpet biter? Yeah, that comes from the Munich
36:03
conference where the Munich Puch.
36:06
No, the Munich conference when Neville Chamberlain went to.
36:10
OK, sorry. Yeah.
36:11
Because Hitler wanted to take back the sedathan land in
36:14
Czechoslovakia and bring the German people who lived there
36:20
back into the Reich. Yeah.
36:22
Back under German rule. Back under German rule.
36:24
So apparently during the negotiations, Hitler became so
36:28
enraged they got down and chewed the carpet.
36:31
So you're dealing, you're dealing with an unhinged
36:34
mindset. So the fact that I, I would
36:38
argue that the Second World War does not happen without a
36:44
personality like Hitler and some historians, but again, the
36:48
Second World War doesn't happen without the first.
36:51
I treated them because that's what enraged Hitler.
36:55
Yes, but individual treaties do not make war.
36:59
Individuals make war. So if someone like Hitler or
37:03
someone else had come to power in Germany, the Second World War
37:07
does not happen. For me, without Hitler, there
37:11
was no Second World War. And yeah, there are other things
37:14
going on, like the Japanese in the Far East.
37:18
The traditional allies were worried about them, but
37:22
particularly with Britain's empire or imperialistic interest
37:28
in the Far East, maybe Japan would have had to have been
37:32
reckoned with at some point, but I don't think it would have led
37:36
to a World War as it did. OK, so I'm sure there's plenty
37:41
of historians would disagree with you who would argue that
37:44
the Second World War was inevitable, right?
37:47
Yes. I mean, I just said that there's
37:49
the 30 year war argument because of the political malaria after
37:53
the First World War and as I said, the rise of fascism, it
38:00
was seen that democracy had failed.
38:03
Essentially what I was going on about the changes in democracy
38:08
around Europe at the start of this episode.
38:11
So after the the First World War happened and the brutality of it
38:15
and the utter carnage, people were who came out of that, a lot
38:20
of societies were saying, well, liberalism failed, like
38:26
democracy has failed, and that's how we got here.
38:29
So let's look into it. Let's look at another form of
38:33
government and maybe that won't happen again.
38:36
So, yeah, the argument's there, but I disagree entirely because
38:40
as I said, Hitler was so unhinged that I mean, it's
38:46
always been said that Chamberlain, and it's unfair on
38:50
Chamberlain. He's maligned by history as a
38:52
coward, but he he did the best he could that summer because
38:58
Hitler was chewing a carpet, essentially was chewing a
39:01
carpet. And you just and and people like
39:03
the Germans wouldn't allow notes when, excuse me, during the
39:09
conference, during the cup, when Chamberlain went to Munich, they
39:12
wouldn't allow notes. But from all the available
39:14
historical records we have, he stood up to Hitler because as
39:19
soon as he went in the room, Hitler was ranting and raving,
39:22
saying that the British aren't going to get in my way again and
39:26
taking back the sedating land. I don't know what the hell that
39:29
meant. And Chamberlain wasn't even
39:31
going to sit down. He said, well, it seems like her
39:34
Hitler has made-up his mind already.
39:37
And he went to leave and Hitler, like, ran over and said, no, no,
39:41
no, please don't leave. Please don't leave.
39:43
And they sat down and they negotiated.
39:45
And absolutely he shouldn't. He shouldn't have allowed Hitler
39:50
to carve out Czechoslovakia. He shouldn't have allowed him to
39:53
take the sedate land. But he just took Hitler at his
39:57
words. He just thought, this is this
39:59
guy. And maybe he was.
40:02
Well, we know he was naive. Well, definitely.
40:05
Definitely naive, but he believed that he was securing
40:09
peace and you have to also take into account Britain were not
40:13
ready to fight at that time. So he took Hitler and his the
40:17
British and the French could not have went to war over the
40:20
sedation land because they weren't ready to fight
40:23
militarily. They were not ready to fight,
40:26
but. OK, Well that that's fair enough
40:29
then. And then?
40:30
In terms of Forsy, is there anything else we should speak
40:33
about now? Well, we could go into another
40:36
treaty that happened before. So Forsy, OK, let's speak about
40:41
that. So that that was the the correct
40:45
me if I'm wrong listeners with the pronunciation.
40:48
So that was the oh, they'll be correcting you all right.
40:50
They'll be correcting me all right.
40:52
So what was that treaty called? And tell us a little bit about
40:55
it. So that would have been the
40:56
Breslikovsk Treaty. So that this was, you have to
41:00
remember Germany won the war in the east, so they beat the
41:04
Russians in the east. So they brought, they met the
41:09
Russians. Breslikovsk was a town near, I
41:13
think it's near modern day Estonia or Belorussia.
41:19
Sounds French. No, it's definitely not French.
41:22
Yeah, I'm not saying it sounds, but that I would say the
41:25
Breslutos treaty is a little known treaty.
41:29
But let's get let's go on to it. Get continue.
41:31
Yeah, it's a little known treaty.
41:33
I mean, it was just as punitive, you could argue, as the for size
41:38
treaty. So after Germany defeated
41:41
Russia, remember Russia is in the middle of revolution at this
41:46
point. So the Bolsheviks just want an
41:49
end to the war. The provisional government
41:52
wanted to fight on, but the Russian war effort was
41:59
disastrous, utterly disastrous. And who became like head on the
42:04
armed forces in 1915 in Russia? And I have a feeling you will
42:09
answer your own question. Yeah, it was our Nicholas the
42:12
Second. Despite having no military
42:14
failing whatsoever, he acquired command.
42:17
Who put him in charge? Christ.
42:18
He put himself in charge. Why would he do that?
42:22
Exactly? And the thing was that the
42:24
Russian war effort was so disastrous, over like 2 million
42:30
Russians died in the First World War, about almost two and a half
42:35
million. And a lot of it was through the
42:38
disaster. And I mean, they weren't alone
42:40
on this went through the disastrous like military
42:43
tactics. And the the thing there's R
42:45
Nicholas, the mistake he made was you could blame him for
42:48
everything that's going on at home.
42:50
And now you could also blame him for everything that's going on
42:52
in the at the front. Well, we should never have put
42:55
himself in charge. He should have put himself in
42:57
charge. So to get back to so Russia is
43:01
decimated at this point. They're desperate for some kind
43:06
of resolution to the war. And this is where the treaty
43:09
comes in, the Besley toss the toss treaty came in.
43:13
So treaty. Was that's in Belarus, by the
43:16
way, It's in Bel. That's what I said.
43:17
Belarusian. So.
43:18
Belarus, I think you said Estonia, but.
43:20
I said Estonia or Belarusian. I know you were close.
43:24
You were close. So the Russians lost Polish
43:29
Baltic territories, they lost Finland, they lost the Ukraine,
43:33
they lost Lithuania, they lost Latvia, they lost Bella Russia,
43:39
they lost Estonia. So the Roman of empires
43:45
basically obliterated. So 40% of their coal, 25% of
43:49
their steel is took by the victors, 34% of the empire
43:55
populace is lost. So very harsh.
43:57
And my wife was actually in Lithuania last year for her job.
44:02
I won't tell you what her job was.
44:04
Please don't. Yeah, I'm sorry one, but her,
44:08
she was saying to me when she got back like the the
44:12
Lithuanians absolutely despise the Russians, obviously no shit.
44:16
And I said to her, of course, because like his peers, the
44:19
great as far as back as that he used to like force Lithuanians
44:25
into icy rivers for entertainment during certain
44:29
like Russian holidays. So the guy was bored.
44:32
So can you blame him? He was bored, you know.
44:35
So is there is there anything else about this treaty that we
44:38
can discuss? Well, I mean, what I mean that
44:41
that's The thing is, is almost as punitive as a treaty for
44:46
size. So the people who say the treaty
44:49
for size definitely led to the Second World War where the
44:52
Germans were just as punitive and their like negotiations when
44:58
they were the vectors. So that's maybe an argument
45:01
against and yeah, it's unfair to, as I said, like to and as in
45:08
like a paper I wrote on it. It's unfair to perfume Germany
45:13
with like war guilt by the end of the First World War.
45:15
But they were happy to to, well, punish the the Russians as
45:22
severely as they are the Treaty of breast with cost on the
45:26
Russians as severely as you said.
45:28
But then you have two wounded giants who are both spoiling for
45:35
a fight then. So you can say these two
45:36
treaties they could have generally well, they obviously
45:40
played a part in the outbreak of World War Two.
45:43
Well that that's no historian on earth.
45:45
Would they ever argue that the treaty will breast of cost led
45:49
to the Second World War and Russia's involvement?
45:52
I mean, yes, maybe you could argue that they wanted like
45:57
their land back in Poland and the Baltics.
46:01
Maybe that led to it. But I mean, without German
46:05
aggression, I don't think Stalin was going to take that land
46:08
back. Yeah, he was willing to leave it
46:12
where it was. He he would have wanted it
46:15
eventually, but I don't think that he would.
46:18
He would have. Well, let's not get into that.
46:21
Yeah. We we won't get into well too
46:23
much on World War 2 just now. So.
46:26
So is there anything else we should discuss about either of
46:29
these treaties before we wrap up this section?
46:33
So yeah, the spectre of his eyes would always call into question
46:36
the legitimacy of post war Europe.
46:39
So that the untaught powers generally want peace or that
46:45
they want to punish and that they want vengeance against the
46:50
Germans. I think it was about of both,
46:52
but. They wanted to humiliate them,
46:54
They wanted to humiliate them. And obviously they were utterly
46:57
humiliated. But I think we've said enough on
47:01
it. Yeah.
47:02
We've covered for sign the order treaty that no one can
47:05
pronounce. Yes.
47:07
The breast lift cost reason. Yeah.
47:09
So anything else we should discuss before we wrap up this
47:12
episode? Well, just be aware that the the
47:14
war was to see then the three of the oldest empires in Europe.
47:19
So which empires were those? Well, the German, the Austria
47:23
Hungarian Empire, the Russian. And when I say an end to the
47:26
empires, I mean that end to the monarchs who had ruled in those
47:30
countries for, I mean, the Romanovs had been on the Russian
47:34
throne for over 330 years. I think it was by the time they
47:38
they were, they were swept away. OK, so these three dynasties
47:45
are, are wiped out. Yeah, the the dynasties were
47:48
wiped out and they were like relics of the past, and they'd
47:54
long been submerged by their own decadence.
47:57
So. Yeah.
47:59
And we're going out regardless. Yeah.
48:01
But we're not going to accept that, you know?
48:03
You know, like, you're not going to accept what?
48:05
We're not going to accept that Anna Anderson was a Anastasia.
48:10
Obviously that's a joke, people, but go on.
48:12
OK. You know, just like he says an
48:14
Irishman, like regardless, he's going like in reference to.
48:19
Killing Jimmy Hoffa, it's like it doesn't matter what you do,
48:23
he's going he's going to be killed.
48:25
So yeah, we need to do an episode on Jimmy Hoffa.
48:29
Yeah, maybe we'll do that. And why the Irishman is probably
48:33
a load of nonsense from from every law enforcement point of
48:38
view. Yeah, maybe.
48:40
But yeah, so is that, is that it on Part 1 of the the causes of
48:45
the First World War? Well, yeah, the causes, the
48:48
first one of war. We'll get into the into the
48:51
causes. We'll continue on with the
48:54
causes in our next episode. Well, that's great, guys.
48:57
Well, thank you everyone for listening to this episode on the
49:00
First World of War. This is the Twin History
49:02
podcast. I'm Joe McCann signing off.
49:05
I'm Johnny McCann. And thanks for listening.
49:09
Yeah, thanks for listening, everyone.
49:10
Take care. Bye.
49:11
Bye. The Twin History Podcast is a
49:14
Lost Cosmonauts production produced by me Virag Estertout.
49:20
Additional producers are Dale McGoldrick, Johnny McCann and
49:24
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49:28
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49:33
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49:37
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49:45
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49:51
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