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The Imagination Gap: AI Won't Steal Your Job · Speak In Flow

• 0:02
  Melinda Lee: Welcome to the Speak and Flow podcast. I am so excited to dive in today because it's about a hot topic. We are all talking about AI.
• 0:12
  Melinda Lee: But, are people using it to the fullest extent? And joining me today is a deep dive conversation about how we need to have a compelling vision
• 0:23
  Melinda Lee: when we're using AI. And we have an expert who is the director of the Institute of Business Innovation at UC Berkeley. He describes himself as an academic entrepreneur.
• 0:36
  Melinda Lee: Who is on the mission to help people, whether you are in academics, or whether you're in business, or even personally, how to adopt
• 0:45
  Melinda Lee: That entrepreneurial mindset, which is so important, across all aspects of our lives.
• 0:52
  Melinda Lee: His name is Usan Igoran. Thank you, Usan, for joining us.
• 0:58
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Thank you, Melinda, it's a pleasure to be here. Second time.
• 1:02
  Melinda Lee: Second time around, I inspire… I really enjoy your insights, and I always learn from you, so I'm excited to dive in today. And, so I'll start off with the first question. There's a busy leader out there who has stopped to listen to this episode.
• 1:19
  Melinda Lee: What do you hope can change in the way this person leads or communicates after… if they're taking everything into consideration?
• 1:29
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Yes, yeah, thank you so much. I mean, so the topic is AI, and of course, the vision, and vision is not bound to AI. I mean, it has always been, like, the
• 1:41
  Oguzhan Aygoren: driving force for people, because it's like, I mean, think about it, throughout history, like, you know, you know what, there were prophets, so prophets are the people who, attracts and combines all those followers, and then they started all those
• 2:00
  Oguzhan Aygoren: villages, and then it's separated out, emerged somewhere else. So, I mean.
• 2:06
  Oguzhan Aygoren: the leaders are… think of… need to think of themselves like those prophets. I mean, who are the ones? They are the ones who have those great ideas, which are inspiring, which are exciting, but at the same time, controversial and scaring.
• 2:25
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So…
• 2:27
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Like, I would like to say, I mean, the leaders who have this huge vision, if they would like to become this magnetic field for all those followers and their employees in the company, to be courageous about what they would like to build.
• 2:44
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Not only building on their existing success, not only building on 10%, 20% success.
• 2:53
  Oguzhan Aygoren: But aiming to grow at 10x, 20x success.
• 2:59
  Melinda Lee: Yes!
• 3:00
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I'm telling Guija.
• 3:01
  Melinda Lee: I… I know that's a compelling vision, and that is what we are… all have access to, especially in the AI world.
• 3:11
  Melinda Lee: Even more so than before.
• 3:13
  Oguzhan Aygoren: That's true. Actually, one more thing about it, it's like, I mean, the human mind is trained to think like increments, like.
• 3:21
  Melinda Lee: Yes.
• 3:21
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Climbing a ladder. Yes. But in real life, especially through AI, I mean, what we can't comprehend as human beings is the exponential growth.
• 3:32
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I mean, no matter how we think.
• 3:34
  Oguzhan Aygoren: We cannot comprehend it. It's… it's like magic, I mean, like, this is how these startups grow, is, like, in exponential, and we cannot think that, but once we… even if we cannot think it.
• 3:47
  Oguzhan Aygoren: If we know it, and if we apply it systematically, I think that's the path to grow ourselves and our organizations.
• 3:57
  Melinda Lee: I mean, as a… and you are so correct, and as a director of, at the Institute of Business Innovation at UC Berkeley, you have a lot of experience with innovation and thinking big, and so tell us more about what you do, and also what excites you.
• 4:13
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Okay, yeah, thank you. And, so, daily, I mean, as you mentioned, what I do is, I mean, I interact a lot with the corporate leaders.
• 4:23
  Oguzhan Aygoren: and also startups, and also ongoing research on campus, and also the investors. So, like, I mean, a broad, a broad spectrum of the innovators all around the place. So, corporates are the ones, I mean, who have the funding.
• 4:42
  Oguzhan Aygoren: but needs direction. I mean, once they have the vision, okay, they have the direction, and everything gets aligned on that.
• 4:50
  Oguzhan Aygoren: But it's not easy, so we'll talk about it more, so now I'll leave it for now. On the other part, there are startups and researchers who work on the next frontiers of technology.
• 5:05
  Oguzhan Aygoren: innovation.
• 5:07
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And the challenge is.
• 5:09
  Oguzhan Aygoren: The corporates, okay, would like to move faster, would like to grow, but it's not easy to innovate or bring all this structured technology within the company, so they have to look for this outside
• 5:23
  Oguzhan Aygoren: research and the outside startups to bring that technology back into their organizations. So that's their challenge.
• 5:31
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So, I find this mutually exciting for both parties.
• 5:36
  Oguzhan Aygoren: both for the company when they reach this research and the startup, so they would like to get it. And also, for the startups and the researchers, it's like, okay, now they have this opportunity to show the impact of their work.
• 5:56
  Oguzhan Aygoren: In the real world.
• 5:58
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So, from my perspective, so what excites me is, like,
• 6:05
  Oguzhan Aygoren: every day, learning about these new challenges and innovations, so that's a great learning opportunity in all terms, so I like learning, I like being at the epicenter of this learning organization.
• 6:20
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And it helps you grow exponentially, learning different, sectors, different verticals, every day. Yeah. Otherwise, I mean, you cannot expose yourself to all those different innovations.
• 6:37
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 6:38
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So, I think that's… I mean, one part is about being around innovation, and second part is being around great organizations and great founders.
• 6:50
  Melinda Lee: Right.
• 6:51
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And with all those parties, so it's a great opportunity to learn all from those.
• 6:57
  Melinda Lee: I love it. I think that's so fascinating. It sounds like… and then, plus, you're there in the forefront of how are these innovations solving real problems for these organizations?
• 7:06
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Yeah, that's true. I mean, otherwise, I mean, in academia, I mean, you can just build in the lab, so you don't know if you'll have a real-world impact, but when you connect it with the real-world challenges, boom, now you can see the results of what you've been working, so I think that's really exciting.
• 7:26
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And also, one other thing is, I mean, when I tell this about it, it's good, but not many organizations and not many corporates,
• 7:37
  Oguzhan Aygoren: can work like that, because, I mean, you know, people do not know what they do not know. I mean, in order to… in order to imagine something, in order to work with something, first you need to
• 7:50
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Expose yourself, you need to.
• 7:53
  Melinda Lee: Nolan?
• 7:53
  Oguzhan Aygoren: about it.
• 7:54
  Oguzhan Aygoren: But I see, I mean, only a handful of companies or organizations are doing that.
• 8:01
  Melinda Lee: Oh, really?
• 8:02
  Oguzhan Aygoren: not many organizations are open to that. I mean, maybe, as intention, they are willing to learn and attract, but
• 8:10
  Oguzhan Aygoren: it's not easy for the corporates and organizations if the direction is not aligned, or if the task is not well defined. Because for corporates, the task is mostly about execution.
• 8:24
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Execution requires returns.
• 8:27
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Short-term targets.
• 8:30
  Oguzhan Aygoren: The job I'm describing is more about exploration.
• 8:34
  Melinda Lee: It is.
• 8:34
  Oguzhan Aygoren: exploration, you don't know the destination, you don't know when it will come out, that's why it's scary, but at the same time, it's exciting. So, for the corporates, I mean, who have not, gone to this road, what I would like to say is.
• 8:52
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Leaving some room for exploration.
• 8:55
  Melinda Lee: Right
• 8:56
  Melinda Lee: Right, and there's probably so much complexity with these companies, and so it becomes a little more challenging to adapt or to explore, because it's so complex, but you're inviting and encouraging and suggesting that it's important to do this exploration.
• 9:14
  Melinda Lee: And is this… you talk about imagination gap, is this what you're talking about?
• 9:20
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Yes, yes, definitely, so I'd like to connect it, connect it there. So, like, I mean, when I say imagination, gaps, okay, so I already said that. I mean, if you, I mean, people cannot imagine things what they do not know, or what they have.
• 9:33
  Melinda Lee: Right.
• 9:34
  Oguzhan Aygoren: You can only imagine
• 9:36
  Oguzhan Aygoren: the things that you are already exposed, or at least you're subconsciously, I mean, consciously or subconscious, but at least you need to have some, something in your mind that's related to what you would like to build. Yeah. So, that's why, I mean, it starts with…
• 9:55
  Oguzhan Aygoren: The exposure?
• 9:57
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And then with the exposure, inspiration, and then after inspiration, the exposition and exploration ends.
• 10:05
  Melinda Lee: Bye.
• 10:06
  Oguzhan Aygoren: expression.
• 10:09
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Like, I mean, you need to follow those stages, so when I say for exploration. And with the imagination, yeah, what I mean is, like, before, before AI, or before all this technology revolution, all this disruption in the last… in the 21st century.
• 10:27
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Like, I mean, think about it, in the industrial revolution.
• 10:31
  Oguzhan Aygoren: people were imagining things, for example, going to the moon, moonshot thinking, like, I mean, okay, we will… we will put him on… put a man on the moon, said.
• 10:39
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And, you know, all the combination of the compute power in the world was less than a calculator.
• 10:47
  Oguzhan Aygoren: But still, I mean, the technology, they didn't know if the technology was capable of that.
• 10:53
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Still, human minds put a vision to go on the moon, and then they worked really hard for a couple of years to close this technology gap. In those years, we had a technology gap, the capability gap. Now, what I'm saying is, it's vice versa now.
• 11:11
  Oguzhan Aygoren: technology, which is so advanced, and…
• 11:15
  Oguzhan Aygoren: We don't even know what to do with that.
• 11:18
  Melinda Lee: Right.
• 11:18
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And we don't know the capabilities of that. I mean, even the founders of the technology, even the founders of AI,
• 11:26
  Oguzhan Aygoren: they have no… I mean, they have ideas, of course, but nobody knows the limits of AI so far.
• 11:32
  Oguzhan Aygoren: There is so much room in imagination, but we are still bound to the imagination.
• 11:39
  Melinda Lee: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 11:40
  Oguzhan Aygoren: what we are used to, so what I'm.
• 11:42
  Melinda Lee: Right.
• 11:42
  Oguzhan Aygoren: thing is.
• 11:43
  Oguzhan Aygoren: what if we can improve our vision 10 times, 100 times, thousand times, a million times, put a vision like going to the moon? I mean, that's why I find Elon Musk so inspiring, because he said, okay, I'll go to Mars, I mean, that's a compelling vision. He don't know.
• 11:58
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 11:58
  Oguzhan Aygoren: doesn't know how to do that, but still working on that. So, what if every organization, every leader, every person on Earth puts a mission like that?
• 12:10
  Melinda Lee: Hmm.
• 12:10
  Oguzhan Aygoren: 100 times, million times, scary, but also exciting, and tries to do that, okay, with the technology available.
• 12:18
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Can we manage to build that?
• 12:21
  Melinda Lee: Fair enough.
• 12:22
  Oguzhan Aygoren: How we can overcome this imagination gap.
• 12:24
  Melinda Lee: That's worth living for.
• 12:26
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Yes, yes, that would be a very exciting life!
• 12:30
  Melinda Lee: It will be a very exciting life. Busy, and exciting, and fulfilling, as long as it's something that you… you desire, but it's almost… if we can't see it, like you said,
• 12:44
  Melinda Lee: if… whether conscious or subconscious, how do we know… how do we… how do we see it? How do we have this vision?
• 12:51
  Melinda Lee: Yeah. That's outside of our conscious and subconscious.
• 12:54
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's why it's so important to…
• 13:00
  Oguzhan Aygoren: to be on the search for…
• 13:04
  Oguzhan Aygoren: outside. I mean, if you always do the same work every day.
• 13:08
  Oguzhan Aygoren: people are always stuck at the routine. I mean, we're never able to see that.
• 13:12
  Melinda Lee: Right.
• 13:13
  Oguzhan Aygoren: But, I mean, like, I mean, going out of the building, getting to know people.
• 13:18
  Melinda Lee: Oh, okay.
• 13:19
  Oguzhan Aygoren: even in your organization, I mean, talking to people, I mean, I'm pretty sure that, I mean, if you talk to people in your organization, you will learn a lot as well, instead of talking to the same people every day. So that's also one way. And also, yeah, talking to all these founders.
• 13:34
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 13:35
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I mean, also putting this, inspiring vision, and then trying to see who else has a similar vision.
• 13:45
  Melinda Lee: What did that feel for?
• 13:46
  Oguzhan Aygoren: so far.
• 13:48
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I don't.
• 13:49
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I said, oh my god, I mean, if they… they have done this.
• 13:52
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I can do this as well.
• 13:56
  Melinda Lee: Or, like, you bounce ideas off of, so that you both are, you know, going in the same direction, or learning from each other, the best practices.
• 14:05
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Yeah, that's true.
• 14:07
  Oguzhan Aygoren: That's true. So…
• 14:09
  Melinda Lee: And… and so… so how do we… how do I know if I'm on the right track?
• 14:14
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Okay, right, how do you know you're on the right track?
• 14:17
  Melinda Lee: If it's a strong vision, it's something that it's worth achieving and going for. How do I know?
• 14:23
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I think, I mean, yeah, okay, there are, I mean, first, I mean, if you define, I mean, being on the right track, I think…
• 14:35
  Oguzhan Aygoren: you will, you will feel it, I think, by the way, I mean, you, you have some progress, around it, so I think.
• 14:45
  Melinda Lee: You'll see…
• 14:46
  Oguzhan Aygoren: some, quick wins, you'll feel lucky, about it, so what I mean is, like, I mean, what… you know, I mean, the human brain works as, like, this selective attention and focus, so when you have this vision… I mean, if you, start to…
• 15:02
  Oguzhan Aygoren: selectively attend something, attract something. Oh my god, that's exactly what I'm thinking for. I mean, I think these are some signs that you're on the,
• 15:12
  Melinda Lee: Right, sure.
• 15:12
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Or, like, miraculously, you meet someone, and you read something, and then, oh my god, that speeds my thinking. I think these are the signs that life is
• 15:22
  Oguzhan Aygoren: That it gives us.
• 15:23
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Yes. And then…
• 15:24
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And then what I see in Silicon Valley is, I mean, I think Silicon Valley is the embodiment of this delusional thinking put into real life.
• 15:34
  Oguzhan Aygoren: which does not exist in this level, maybe at different levels, but what I see here is, like, when it… I mean, even from my students, or from the people that I know, or from the stories that I hear.
• 15:46
  Oguzhan Aygoren: When you have this delusional vision, it's delusional for anyone else, but when you talk about it, and when you believe it so much, when you leave it, when you embody it, people believe in you as well.
• 16:01
  Oguzhan Aygoren: That's what I see. And then they are… and then they become willing to put money into you.
• 16:07
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Put money into what, you are believing, and you are living.
• 16:13
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I think… I mean, that would be a great sign that you're on the,
• 16:18
  Melinda Lee: Right, track.
• 16:18
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Right.
• 16:19
  Melinda Lee: Correct. Yeah, you're in flow. You're in flow.
• 16:21
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Because it was not…
• 16:22
  Melinda Lee: Suddenly, yep, yep, your mind, body, spirit is in alignment, and then you start to… things start blowing into place, like, things happen, you meet the right person, you get the right opportunity, and it seems like it's good luck, but actually, I believe that it's, you're in alignment.
• 16:42
  Melinda Lee: With the vision, and then… and then, so, how can we, you know, to have a compelling vision, it's big, it's bold, it's scary, how does one communicate it in a way that… so people can execute it?
• 16:58
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Yes.
• 17:00
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I think that's a… that's a… yeah, that's a great question, and many, many other people, are scared about this. Right. So I'll give you… I'll give you one example of a person who I know, and who also who inspired me a lot. I think it was
• 17:15
  Oguzhan Aygoren: about more than 10 years ago, in Barcelona, I met a person, it was in the World Open Innovation Conference, and
• 17:24
  Oguzhan Aygoren: We were bought jury members at an event, and I said, okay, yeah, I'm in last mate, so who are you? He described himself as a food artist. Okay.
• 17:33
  Melinda Lee: as well.
• 17:34
  Oguzhan Aygoren: what does a food artist do? So what do you mean? And then he said, okay, there are three things what I do, and one of the things he described to me was, like, okay, I work on,
• 17:47
  Oguzhan Aygoren: ungravitational food. So what does it mean? What is ungravitational food? It's like, okay, I just dream about it. Instead of going to the food, dropping our fork and knife, what if the food flies to our mouths?
• 18:02
  Melinda Lee: Wow. That…
• 18:04
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Okay, that's crazy, that's delusional.
• 18:08
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And then, okay, so if you'd like to see how I make it happen, so come to my workshop. So I went to his workshop the other day, and there were a couple of people. There were some scientists, there were some practitioners, and, like, so what I came to observe was
• 18:24
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I mean, he had this vision, okay, that's crazy, but then he researched the literature about people who are working on the same problem. Of course, other people were not defining in the way he defines it, but…
• 18:39
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I mean, there was a scientist who was working on, like, the magnetic attraction between food and the utensils that we use. Okay, so that was one way to approach it. There was someone else
• 18:53
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Who work on a different aspect, about the… what about the ingredients and combining it with different gas, whatever.
• 19:02
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So, like, I mean, he was looking… I mean, he had this artistic dream, delusional dream, but at the same time, he had this scientific base.
• 19:10
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So, he has… he calls it as an artist, but he followed the science. So, he said, okay, what is available? So, what is real at the moment? So, what is the actual of the science at the moment? And then, a couple of years later.
• 19:24
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I mean, I met him again, he came to Berkeley, and then, you know what? He made it. A couple of years later, I mean, he put this vision into action.
• 19:34
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I mean, he tried several things through the science, but at the end, he was able to bring this flying food into life. He built, he invented the first flying food.
• 19:47
  Melinda Lee: Wow.
• 19:48
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So, how does.
• 19:48
  Melinda Lee: That is awesome.
• 19:50
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I mean, how does he do that? So, he just, I mean, at the end, I mean, after several iterations, the experimentation, navigating around uncertainty, so he… he found a way to make it happen. Okay, it wasn't the same idea he described to me 10 years ago.
• 20:05
  Melinda Lee: Of course.
• 20:06
  Oguzhan Aygoren: iterated, but at the end, he… he found it. So what he does is, like, now, he… he calls it, eatable cloud at the moment, so he produces some clouds, so the cloud flies because there is some helium inside, but then…
• 20:22
  Melinda Lee: Mmm.
• 20:23
  Oguzhan Aygoren: can put some ingredients that you want. I mean, if you like a coffee, he puts coffee inside, so you can catch the clot and then eat the coffee, or…
• 20:32
  Melinda Lee: Oh my god.
• 20:35
  Oguzhan Aygoren: You can put whatever nutrients and ingredients you want, and now he's a very successful entrepreneur, working with a lot of restaurants and bars, nightclubs.
• 20:46
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 20:47
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So.
• 20:48
  Melinda Lee: Oh, that's so cool!
• 20:49
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Yeah, that's a crazy example. But, you know what? When I talk about this story to CEOs, many CEOs are like, oh my god, that's crazy, don't talk about this idea.
• 21:03
  Melinda Lee: Okay. Well, I mean, I'm curious, though, how would a CEO who is running a company would, like.
• 21:10
  Melinda Lee: let's just say 500, 600 people, the CEO has a crazy idea.
• 21:16
  Melinda Lee: but wants to execute it, but how does… how do you have the, communication skills to bring everybody else along on this crazy idea? How does… yeah.
• 21:28
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I think, I think there are two things to this question. First, I mean, who is the CEO? So what trace does the CEO have in order to have this vision?
• 21:41
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I think…
• 21:43
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I mean, when we look at the real life, so… I mean, which companies are the worst, largest companies? Like, okay, yeah, Nvidia, Google, Microsoft, SpaceX… I mean, we know all those leaders. I mean, they are the ones who have these trillions of dollars worth of companies.
• 22:01
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And at the same time, they are the founders. So, a startup, so they are still operating at the startup mode. They are… they still have the startup orientation.
• 22:12
  Melinda Lee: Hmm.
• 22:13
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So this is something I'm researching and working on, and writing a book on this subject. I call
• 22:19
  Oguzhan Aygoren: orientation. And when we look at the other organizations, other CEOs, I mean, if they are not the founders, it's really hard to embody this founder mode, the startup mode.
• 22:31
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Maybe that's one reason.
• 22:33
  Melinda Lee: Mmm.
• 22:34
  Oguzhan Aygoren: have this crazy vision. And their visions are more, like, realistic, more grounded.
• 22:41
  Oguzhan Aygoren: But when it's more grounded, it's… it becomes more like a target, not…
• 22:45
  Oguzhan Aygoren: It's not as crazy. So, I think the first level is increase… so, coming over this imagination gap and increasing the extent and craziness level of your vision.
• 23:00
  Oguzhan Aygoren: more like a founder, more like a startup. I think that's the first step. So your question is, I think, for the second step. You say, okay, once you have this vision, how can you make your organization follow you and make it worse? I think that's for the second level. So for that part.
• 23:19
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I think there are a couple of ways to do that, and I think still we can learn it from the founders and the founders and the crazy startups, so we can learn from them.
• 23:33
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So, first, I mean, this is also something you mentioned, a lot, is the, communication. And then how do you communicate that?
• 23:44
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So, it is, I think, about…
• 23:47
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Always keeping it as the most important thing that you are trying to solve. In that way, you can attract the best talent.
• 23:56
  Oguzhan Aygoren: That talent also would like to work on the craziest challenges. They don't want.
• 24:01
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 24:02
  Oguzhan Aygoren: a regular problem. They would like to work on the craziest challenge. I mean, if you own it, then you can do that.
• 24:10
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And for some CEOs, for some of the organizations that I work with, I see that
• 24:15
  Oguzhan Aygoren: They have, by the way, they have great visions, like, becoming, like, the… thinking about future of finance, becoming bank of the future, becoming, bank of… future of the, manufacturing, future of, future of working, so there are lots of organizations thinking about the future, so what would the future look like? So, can we do that?
• 24:37
  Oguzhan Aygoren: But the problem is, This… Vision becomes one of the 10 other visions.
• 24:48
  Oguzhan Aygoren: You have several visions.
• 24:50
  Melinda Lee: Yes.
• 24:51
  Oguzhan Aygoren: It doesn't work.
• 24:52
  Melinda Lee: No, no, no, right.
• 24:54
  Oguzhan Aygoren: The single most important thing is you need to have one compelling vision, and then.
• 25:00
  Oguzhan Aygoren: those other things, and I think it needs to be no more than 3, those other things.
• 25:07
  Oguzhan Aygoren: It also aligned with this compelling vision.
• 25:10
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And if you have several visions, then I think what we can learn from Elon Musk, then build other companies. You don't have to do.
• 25:17
  Melinda Lee: Right.
• 25:17
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Everything in the same company.
• 25:19
  Melinda Lee: Right, right, right, right, I agree, I agree. Everybody has to be in alignment, everybody has to know what the compelling vision is, and work focused on it.
• 25:28
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And when I talk to the employees, senior leaders, directors in those companies, I get to hear that, okay, I mean, I tell them, okay, so this is the, yeah, future of the organization you are talking about. Yeah, but I mean, and we have these other things as well, so they are confused. Right. Yeah, when you have more vision, so you are confused.
• 25:48
  Melinda Lee: I'm so confused.
• 25:49
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Yeah, so the number one thing is, like, sticking to it, so the crazier, the better.
• 25:56
  Melinda Lee: Crazy, and because there's going to be so many ups and downs, and a lot of downs, and everybody's confused, but then you still need to continue, like, overcoming those challenges, and stick with it.
• 26:06
  Melinda Lee: I think sometimes when people… when it starts to get difficult, then everybody maybe points somewhere else, looks somewhere else, and does something else, because it's hard.
• 26:18
  Oguzhan Aygoren: That's true, yeah, it's hard, and like… and then, you know, I mean, most of the work life is about solving problems, putting the fires off, becoming a fire.
• 26:30
  Melinda Lee: Right.
• 26:30
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Right. Working on the urgent stuff.
• 26:33
  Melinda Lee: Right. And what happens to these companies when they have a compelling vision.
• 26:39
  Melinda Lee: They're all going the same direction, and fires happen, problems happen. What happens when they have adopted a standard of communication?
• 26:51
  Melinda Lee: You know, of how do we solve problems? We have a clear standard on how to do that. We have a clear standard of when we have a conflict, how do we address conflict? What could be, you know, what is the impact if they have those clear standards?
• 27:04
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Okay, yeah, I think it's, I mean, this is very much aligned with the culture you set in the company.
• 27:14
  Melinda Lee: Communication culture. Yes.
• 27:16
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And also, culture is about what you allow in the company. Like, I mean, so what is the standard? I mean, the standard is the keyword, I guess.
• 27:27
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So, what is the standard in your company? I think, when you, when you make it publicly clear, transparently.
• 27:38
  Melinda Lee: conclusions.
• 27:39
  Oguzhan Aygoren: the company that… You will not allow standards below a certain level, and this.
• 27:46
  Melinda Lee: Yes.
• 27:46
  Oguzhan Aygoren: that you would like to work, and then if you leave the employees that… I mean, if you tell employees that, okay, you will only allow these standards, otherwise it will be hard to work together, I think that
• 28:03
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Number one thing.
• 28:04
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And, I think Elon Musk was talking about this as the opt-in organization.
• 28:11
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So, he was saying that when he, when he took over, Tivitor, I mean, he said, all the employees need to opt in to work here, so he gave
• 28:21
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Everybody, away to opt out.
• 28:25
  Oguzhan Aygoren: if you would like to work with the standards, then you need to be willing to do that. Otherwise, I cannot force anybody to work on that, so…
• 28:33
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 28:34
  Oguzhan Aygoren: This gives you the freedom of choice.
• 28:38
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And second, this gives the employees, okay, so this is what I would like to do, this is what I choose to do. I say.
• 28:49
  Oguzhan Aygoren: standards at this level as well.
• 28:52
  Oguzhan Aygoren: People who say challenge are accepted, so that's a challenge.
• 28:56
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So, I think that's, number one. And second thing is…
• 29:02
  Oguzhan Aygoren: In terms of, communication, okay, this is also related to your previous question, the keeping track, so what is the…
• 29:11
  Oguzhan Aygoren: How do you measure the progress?
• 29:13
  Melinda Lee: Right.
• 29:14
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Towards that… towards that, vision.
• 29:17
  Melinda Lee: Right.
• 29:18
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So, if people see progress, if people see that through the progress, the, through the vision.
• 29:29
  Oguzhan Aygoren: what is tolerated, what is not tolerated? Again, I will give example of Elon Musk, because I think… I mean, no matter what, I mean, besides other things, I think he's a great visionary, great risk-taker in those contexts, and there's a documentary about the SpaceX in Netflix. I mean, if you watch it, you will see that
• 29:48
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I mean, he risked everything for this compelling vision that… to bring back the rockets back on Earth.
• 29:55
  Oguzhan Aygoren: He didn't know how to do it, nobody believed in him, and all other space record scientists said that it was impossible.
• 30:03
  Oguzhan Aygoren: But people who believed in them wanted to work, and then the first three rocket launches failed.
• 30:10
  Oguzhan Aygoren: He did. He… he promoted the person.
• 30:14
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Who failed 3 rocket launches instead of 4?
• 30:17
  Melinda Lee: Wow. Wow.
• 30:19
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So this is what we all know, because he publicly says that… Failure…
• 30:24
  Oguzhan Aygoren: As long as you learn from it.
• 30:26
  Melinda Lee: Right.
• 30:27
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Taylor is appreciated.
• 30:28
  Melinda Lee: Right.
• 30:29
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So, that's.
• 30:30
  Melinda Lee: That's the call?
• 30:31
  Oguzhan Aygoren: I mean, in the communication.
• 30:32
  Melinda Lee: fendable.
• 30:33
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Do you celebrate the culture? So, how do you approach.
• 30:35
  Melinda Lee: it.
• 30:36
  Oguzhan Aygoren: There's also another example in Google, in the early days of Google.
• 30:40
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Instead of a blame culture.
• 30:43
  Oguzhan Aygoren: have a challenge culture.
• 30:45
  Oguzhan Aygoren: partner.
• 30:46
  Oguzhan Aygoren: and also appreciation of learning and failure. In the early phases, Larry or Saige, they say, okay, they just… they are just not happy with something. In a regular company, you just say, okay, this thing doesn't work, so who did that? And you just…
• 31:03
  Oguzhan Aygoren: complain and blame people, and then ask them to fix it. In Google, it's not the way it works. They just put a sign on the kitchen in a Friday afternoon, hey, this… and the sign says, this sucks, okay?
• 31:15
  Melinda Lee: Beautiful.
• 31:15
  Oguzhan Aygoren: there's a picture of it. And then, you know what? In the kitchen, somebody finds about it, and by the way, that person, that engineer, is not a person in that team.
• 31:27
  Melinda Lee: Hmm.
• 31:28
  Oguzhan Aygoren: He says, okay, challenge accepted. He works on the problem throughout the weekend as an engineering challenge.
• 31:34
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Maybe as a side hobby, now that's part of his job. And on Monday, he fixes the problem.
• 31:40
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Wasn't his responsibility?
• 31:43
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So, like, I mean, these kind of cultural things, I think, makes all those companies the number one companies in the world.
• 31:52
  Oguzhan Aygoren: There is a reason why we call those companies as the Magnificent Seven.
• 31:56
  Melinda Lee: Got it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, they're willing to take
• 32:01
  Melinda Lee: all the risks, you know, to go after that compelling vision that is not just incremental, is not just one step, it's 10X, 20X, big visions, but they're willing to put it all in
• 32:14
  Melinda Lee: And stay focused on it. And then, like you said, when you're so focused on it, you're gonna… you know, some people that are really interested in also solving the same problem will support, you'll find the right resources, and move along toward that vision.
• 32:29
  Oguzhan Aygoren: That's true.
• 32:29
  Melinda Lee: And then for my… for me, from my… it's like, and then we have those standards, like, how… what is acceptable standard toward that vision? It could be, like, that mindset, the challenge mindset, the growth mindset, the communication, how do we solve problems together, how do… yeah, so all of that, supports the execution of the vision.
• 32:50
  Oguzhan Aygoren: That's true.
• 32:51
  Melinda Lee: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I learned so much today, and I think this is an amazing conversation. It's always so fun to talk to you, Ozan. And so, what about your book? Tell us, like, is it all… is it out already?
• 33:04
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Not yet, but hopefully soon, so hopefully this year. Okay. Yeah, before this year. So, I call it startup orientation. So, this is actually.
• 33:12
  Melinda Lee: Right.
• 33:13
  Oguzhan Aygoren: The idea that I was telling you, like, what can we learn from those great organizations, great startups?
• 33:19
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 33:20
  Oguzhan Aygoren: organization can become like these startups. So that's the, idea. And then how I feed this idea is actually through my academic research. I mean.
• 33:30
  Oguzhan Aygoren: there are different types of entrepreneurs… entrepreneurship. So, before, when we call about entrepreneur, it was all about risk-taking, all about, like, inventions, or…
• 33:42
  Melinda Lee: Huh?
• 33:42
  Oguzhan Aygoren: But now, I mean, we told startups, this is not what we see.
• 33:46
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So, what we see, instead of taking more risks, the new startups operate more in uncertainty, especially through AI. Now, we are living in a world which is more uncertain than ever.
• 33:59
  Melinda Lee: Amazing.
• 33:59
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So…
• 34:00
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Dealing with uncertainty is the number one thing. Second thing is about… have this experimentation mindset. Constantly… so everything we do, instead of calling it, okay, this is the way we do, we can call it an experiment and learn from it.
• 34:15
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And third one is, instead of the result of being an innovative company, we can focus on being creative and coming up with these new ideas, crazy ideas.
• 34:27
  Oguzhan Aygoren: that we talk about this vision. This… what crazy idea can you come? If we ask our employees about that, I'm definitely sure the company will be a more crazier place to work, and that's the… that's the feature, that's not a bug.
• 34:44
  Oguzhan Aygoren: And the fourth thing is co-creation. How can we work and partner with others so.
• 34:52
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 34:52
  Oguzhan Aygoren: built together.
• 34:54
  Melinda Lee: Yeah. Oh my gosh.
• 34:56
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Fifth one, finally, is about the scalability part. This is actually, I mean, I frame it as opposed to economies of scale. So, it's like, in the past, it was more like becoming big, becoming huge organization.
• 35:11
  Oguzhan Aygoren: becoming powerful, and then our costs will be low, so it's all about optimization and cost-effectiveness, but scalable organizations, or exponential organizations, are totally different. They…
• 35:25
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Choose to stay small, but… Or, at the same time.
• 35:30
  Oguzhan Aygoren: They aim to bring a lot of impact.
• 35:35
  Melinda Lee: Mmm.
• 35:36
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So that's why, I mean, you hear that a lot. I mean, Sam Altman talks it, Dario talks it, Demi Salsebis talks it, they say that, now, we are living in a world where one person can create a billion-dollar startup.
• 35:49
  Oguzhan Aygoren: That's the scale of the organization. That was…
• 35:52
  Oguzhan Aygoren: That has never been possible before, but now, this exciting time might produce these kind of people. And why not? One of us can do that?
• 36:03
  Melinda Lee: You just, created my compelling vision. That's gonna be me. Small, but billion-dollar impact.
• 36:10
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Yes, yes, yes.
• 36:11
  Melinda Lee: That's why I bring you to the… that's why I bring you to the Speak Inflow podcast, because I always get so excited.
• 36:17
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Wow.
• 36:18
  Melinda Lee: Oh my gosh, it's great. I can't wait to get the book! So I'm excited to let us know when it's out, and it's always, it's gonna be so great. It's gonna be always so, so full of insight and research, and…
• 36:31
  Melinda Lee: And, especially for me, starting the business, to know that… I like that idea, keeping it small, but big impact. Because we want to be flexible nowadays. You know, when it's too big, it's difficult to move.
• 36:43
  Melinda Lee: And so, just having that, ability to make a big impact, even with just some quality people.
• 36:51
  Oguzhan Aygoren: That's true.
• 36:51
  Melinda Lee: I love that, yeah.
• 36:53
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Yeah.
• 36:53
  Melinda Lee: Yeah!
• 36:54
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Agile, yeah, more flexible.
• 36:57
  Melinda Lee: I like it, I like it, I love that. Because then you can meet the needs of the market and the innovation that is happening.
• 37:06
  Oguzhan Aygoren: That's true. Yeah, I mean, that's the… actually, that's the most powerful asset of the.
• 37:12
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 37:12
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Startups and the founders.
• 37:13
  Melinda Lee: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:14
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Organizations.
• 37:16
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 37:17
  Oguzhan Aygoren: organizations.
• 37:18
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 37:18
  Oguzhan Aygoren: So, that's why they rely a lot on startups. So, we are living in the world of startups right now, so everybody.
• 37:24
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 37:25
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Be their own startup, and…
• 37:26
  Melinda Lee: Love it.
• 37:27
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Reached to a billion dollars.
• 37:29
  Melinda Lee: Love it, love it. Yes, why not? Thank you, Osan! I mean, it's really great. Thank you for your mission of helping people to have that entrepreneurial mindset and think big, in a really big vision way, and keeping us on track. I really appreciate your insights today.
• 37:45
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Thank you, Melinda.
• 37:47
  Melinda Lee: Exactly. Yeah.
• 37:48
  Oguzhan Aygoren: contagious, so I hope, this… this is suppressed through the listeners of the podcast, and.
• 37:56
  Melinda Lee: Oh.
• 37:57
  Oguzhan Aygoren: More of it.
• 37:58
  Melinda Lee: The last episode, your episode, was one of the top ranked, so I'm sure this one is too.
• 38:04
  Melinda Lee: Thank you. People like it, people like it. Well, thank you so much, and thank you, listeners. I trust that you got your takeaway for today, and remember, anytime you have a chance to communicate, communicate what matters, so it inspires and moves people together.
• 38:18
  Melinda Lee: Take care. Bye-bye.
• 38:21
  Melinda Lee: Thank you, Ozan!
• 38:22
  Oguzhan Aygoren: Thank you, thank you, Melinda. Yeah, it was great.